Date   

Re: academics and employment

Mike
 

Thank you for sharing this! In my humble opinion, you did an excellent job. I am a developer in my early career. I am very familiar with GitHub. Thank you for sharing, for those of us who are not.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of hurrikennyandopo ...
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 9:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

hi

 

Go to the following link at https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/snapshots/

there are both alfa snap shots as well as beta ones They pretty much say what the alfa ones are and the beta ones are what will go into nvda when it is released.

 

I started writing up how to report a issue to nvaccess and where to go to do it but not finished.

 

you also need to have a git hub account to report a ticket and the steps etc.

 

I was wondering if it may of been better just recording audio of where to go and what to expect  when you go to do it not sure.

 

What was written i will post below. I should really go back and finish it.

 

The basics of making a ticket for NVACCESS

 

From time to time you might need to report a bug to be fixed. Before you report the bug ask others on the list if they are getting the same results as you. NVACCESS will need as much information as possible so they can fix the problem.

Where to go to issue a bug to be fixed

 

 

If you are a user of the NVDA screen reader whether you use the next snap shot alpha code, the Master snap shot beta code or the stable version of NVDA that is released to the public, if you come across a bug it can be reported at the following web page at https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues

 

Getting a Git hub account or simply signing in

 

To report any issues to be fixed you must have a Git Hub account.  .

If you do not have a Git Hub account you will need to go to the sign up link then press the enter key. It will ask you for a user name, email address, password and once done locate the create a account button then press the space bar or enter key for it to be created.

If you already have a account it is just a matter of locating the sign in link and entering your details to log into git hub.

 

 

After you have signed into git hub

 

 

After you have signed into git hub to report an issue on your page you will have some links and buttons and headings. Do not worry about most of them. The first button is a search button, the second a create new button, the third a view profile and more button, and a sign out button. You will need to look for a new issue button this is found under the sign out button then press the enter key so a ticket can be created.

Before making a new issue you should do a search to see if a ticket has already been made. If this is the case you might be able to reply on another ticket if it matches the problems you are having.

If one can not be found then you would create a new issue.

Searching for an issue on git hub

 

 

Before you report a issue/bug report to NVACCESS you will need to do a search to see if anyone else has reported the bug. If one cannot be found then you will need to open a new issue. This is a button.

Press the ENTER key to do this.

 

A More direct link to make a ticket

 

 

If you have already signed up to git hub a more direct link to where you can make a ticket can be found at https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/new

 

You can arrow through the page to see all the sections.

 

As you go down the page you will hear the following.

This may depend if you arrow down the page or jump down by buttons. If you jump down by buttons you will hear the following. For example add header text button, add bold text button, add italic text button, insert a quote button, insert code button, add a link button, add a bulleted list button, add a numbered list button, add a task list button, insert a reply button, Directly mention a user or team, Reference an issue or pull request, browse button, submit new issue button.

In most cases you will not be Inserting  a reply to a Directly mention a user or team

Reference an issue or pull request unless you are replying to a ticket.

 

 

You may find it easier to arrow through rather than use single letter navigation keys to get all of the information.

 

Single letter navigation keys that can be used in browse mode

 

You can use B for buttons, K for links, E for edit areas and F for form fields .

 

They will need to know the following in the header text edit area what the issue is. For example

 

Under the ### Steps to reproduce:

> A list of the steps you take to demonstrate the problem.

> Example:

> 1. Open Chrome

> 2. Browse to www.google.com

> 3. Type "Hello"

> 4. Notice an error sound when enter is pressed.

 

> Please also remember to attach a zip of any files required to reproduce the issue.

 

### Expected behavior:

> Tell us what should happen.

 

### Actual behavior:

> Tell us what happens instead.

 

They will also need to know the NVDA version whether it is a next-14027,c80e529f

Snap shot, or a master snap shot with its version number. Also whether it is a portable or installed version of NVDA.

Other information

 

They may need other information such as if it was > Example: Running in a VM

 

Windows version:

> Example: Windows 10 Version 1607 Build 14393.1066

 

 

 

### Other questions:

 

Does the issue still occur after restarting your PC?

 

Have you tried any other versions of NVDA?

> Please list them and the result

 

Browse…

No files selected.

Attach files by dragging & dropping, selecting them, or pasting from the clipboard. 

 

Under this section would be where you would post your NVDA log.

 

Make sure under the general settings in NVDA it is set to Logging level: debug

 

If you are lucky some one on the list might do the ticket for you but you will need to copy and paste the log into the email as attachments are blocked on the list.

 

 

After you have filled in the information that that they require locate the submit new issue button and your ticket will be created.

Please note

 

 

For NVACCESS to try and track down any bugs to be fixed you need to have the steps to recreate the problem you are having. Make sure your Logging level: is set to debug is set under the General settings in NVDA. You can also obtain the log which it produces from the Tool.. view log section in NVDA. A log will be produced after you press the enter key on the view log menu. Press the ALT key until a menu drops down then arrow down to you hear NVDA say save log as then press the ENTER key. NVDA will default to the file name then it is a matter of tabbing until you hear a location to save the file to  as the Desk top then shift/tabbing back to the save button then pressing the enter key on the save button.

 

A much quicker way to get to your NVDA log is by pressing the NVDA key +f1key , CTRL then +letter A to select all

characters, ctrl+c to copy, & then pasting CTRL key + letter V  into a email to send. Or it's in

c:\users\username\AppData\local\temp\nvda.log, which u can just

attach. If you have to restart NVDA, then it's in

c:\users\username\appdata\local\temp\nvda-old.log.

 

You cannot add attachments to a email only paste in the contents of the log. A attachment can be posted to a ticket.

 

   

For more information on using Git Hub with a screen reader which goes beyond making a ticket please go to the following link at http://bats.fyi/2016/08/19/mastering-github-with-a-screen-reader-part-1/

 

 

Gene nz

 

 

 

 

 

On 8/19/2018 10:55 AM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Where do I go to learn more about becoming an NVDA beta tester? Thanks.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of hurrikennyandopo ...
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 5:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

Hi

 

Is that not why they have people do beta testing etc in jaws etc as well to iron out stuff like that. So that would only be people who have jaws.

 

As you would already know nvaccess do have people test the alfa and beta snapshots to iron out problems before a stable is released. Some might slip through from time to time but will be fixed. Unless it can be re produced by other people the problem it might not get fixed for a while.

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 8/19/2018 10:08 AM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Thank you for sharing your insights on this! They were a pleasure to read. I like to read and write a lot. I do not mind reading long messages.

 

When I generalized about JAWS, I was being informal. I should have asked the group not to take my advice as solid proof. Overall, it sounds like what we really need to do is have a large group of people reproduce the exact steps that cause JAWS to crash, and if it is consistent on that large number of machines, we need to use a debugger and log files to step through the app or site JAWS is crashing on when it happens, document it, and send that report to Freedom Scientific.

 

The conclusion I drew from what you wrote, overall, is that nothing is perfect. I use the tools that will solve the problem along the way, and suggest improvements as I go.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 5:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

This message is rather long.  You may or may not want to read it all.  I hope you find it interesting and useful.

 

Others may be able to give you an answer or some sort of guide about a good sample size.  I don't have any formal answer.  Intermittent or not, if there is a performance problem on only one machine that is known, it can't be generalized to be a problem that affects a lot of or most machines without more information.  I never say the person isn't having the problem unless I know the cause and it isn't what is being claimed but off and on, when someone generalizes about a performance problem because they have it, I say that it hasn't been demonstrated that it is a general problem.

 

Recently, a member said they had the same problem on two or three computers.  Ssince the problem occurred in a very popular application and no one had reported it on any list I follow except him, I surmised and said, not as a definite conclusion, but as, what I consider to  be a likely state of affairs, that the person had done the same thing on all those machines, installed or uninstalled the same program or something, whatever it might be that caused the problem on all machines.  I use the nature of the problem, if I've seen it reported by others, and other factors, if they seem relevant, but my main point is that I see people generalize about a product by saying how terrible it is because of a performance problem on their machine and generalization can't be done. 

 

As far as the announcement of visited links is concerned, I believe that is true, that it can't be turned on or off.  But not to use a screen-reader because of one tiny behavior like that is, in my opinion, absurd. 

 

If someone is that bothered by visited link announcement, delete browsing history.  That's what visited links are determined by.  The information is stored in browsing history and turning it off will cause all links to be shown as unvisited. 

 

Second, if you tab through links, or use the letter k to move just by links, you will hear the link spoken and visited spoken afterword.  This is another example of where NVDA should be user customizable.  You should be able to turn off visited as an announcement but further, you should be able to set NVDA to announce visited before or after a link and it should be consistent no matter how you move through links. 

 

As I said yesterday, it might be a good idea to have a small group convene and consider and get input from users about how NvDA should be made more customizable.  In this respect, you also can't adjust when other controls are heard, do you want to hear button or combo box or check box, for example, before or after you hear the text announced. 

 

I haven't used System Access enough for a long time to know how it may have changed in more recent years.  Regardless, it simply is more limited than NVDA on the Internet and in general.  It wasn't developed to be a powerful screen-reader, it was intended to be powerful enough to meet less demanding users' needs at a time when there were no or no decent considerably lower price alternatives to JAWS and Window-eyes whereas NVDA is intended to be a much more powerful screen-reader

 

Take one example, the simulated mouse in System Access is much less capable.  there are times when you must use the simulated mouse to activate a link or control.  But you often can't do it using the System Access mouse, at least that is my recollection.  And talk about annoyances, the simulated mouse in System Access is programmed to make a horrible nerve-grating noise when you click it.  What were they thinking?  In my opinion, that noise is much more disgusting and annoying than hearing the word "visited" when I don't want to. 

 

On the other hand, years ago, I used one or two web sites that couldn't be used to perform their main function when other screen-readers were used.  I could use a link or control to perform an essential action that wouldn't work with another screen-reader.  Also, on this or that page, System Access would read changes that occurred on the page, not where I was working when I would take an action and that was essential because I wouldn't have known that the page had changed otherwise even if I could have read the new material.  And it would have been ridiculously inefficient to look around the page every time I guessed that it might have changed somewhere.

 

There is no one ideal screen-reader and I strongly feel that not using a screen-reader because of this or that small or tiny behavior is absurd.  Such behaviors may be annoying but it's a classic example of the cliché about a mountain out of a molehill.

 

Gene

Gene----- Original Message ---------- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:57 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

I believe in using whatever resources are at my fingertips, in any given situation. If I come across an inaccessible app at work, I am not going to have the time to program out a fix for it, plus do the programming I do as part of my job, and meet the deadline.

 

The reason my friend uses System Access and not NVDA is that he claims with NVDA, you cannot turn off the announcement of visited and unvisited links.

 

Also, Gene, you were talking about sample size and testing software earlier. What is an accurate sample size for testing an intermittent problem? When JAWS crashes on the machines I used, it is intermittent. I wish they taught us more about troubleshooting intermittent problems in school. It is a skill that I have much room for growth in.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:51 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

System Access isn't nearly as powerful as NVDA but it works with web pages differently.  While this generally doesn't matter in terms of accessibility of web pages, at times it does.  So it's good to have as a resource.  But you don't have to install it.  Try System Access to Go.  As a once in awhile resource, it may be useful. 

You used to have to use System Access to Go with Internet Explorer.  I'm not sure now, though I believe that in order to use the talking feature that speaks when you open the web site, you still may. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:34 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

I had a problem with System Access where it totally locked up my computer when I installed it. I may have to retry. My friend keeps wanting me to try it.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Mike,

One time I had to fill out a survey for Hadley School and NVDA didn't see all the different fields for typing in information so I used system access to go. With system access to go, I was able to complete the survey.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student)
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Rosemarie, I am also context sensitive when it comes to screen readers. NVDA meets most of my needs. Where it does not, I use JAWS.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Chris,

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We all have the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.
After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used Jaws for years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my needs very well.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot have different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we just agree to disagree?"















 

 


Re: academics and employment

 

Well if you have spent  a lot of money on something, even if another systems come s alone even if that system is utter crap you can't just switch away from it.

Its why I will never switch to linux as such, I have spent so much cash on windows from screen readers to apps, to games that to switch, well I just can't see myself doing it.

My aunt works in a clothing company, they recently switched from their own customised software to sap, it did not need their needs, however while they eventually did switch back to their own thing, because they had spent millions on sap, they were reluctant to do so.


The same goes for here.

The the advantages of prepriatory software or in house stuff or comercial software is that you can't easily get at it, its closed source, its got perofessional support, its not malware full, you have a contract with company x, iff it screws up you can sue if you wish.

Its what everyone uses, and well thats it.

Opensource stuff, its good, can be updated quickly, has no comercial restrictions, user supported, easy for everyone to get at.

Its good free and everyone likes it.

But anyone in theory could do bad things to it, its full of viruses and malware, will give access to your computer and could be a really big security risk.

And while we manage things properly here, the developers like in espeak could just drop off the earth and leave no forwarding address.

That doesn't really work well with companies.

Now imagine you have spent cash for jaws, or dolphin, for years and years, and this new thing comes along.

You can't up and leave even if x software suddenly becomes so crappy that your sysem needs to be reformatted daily and all your users complain you can't just up and leave.

Simply put, its more than likely that even if the industry has started to change, for those that helped companies like freedom scientiffic along either through contracts or simply because for the non willingness to move well.

Point is, it could be, we won't leave, it could also bee we can't leave, and may not be able to leave till the contract ends.

Since some of these contracts could be openended I mean jaws for businesses and for some other places probably was it, I doubt anyone actually designed the contracts so you could walk, it wouldn't be likely you would ever need to, and now they can't just leave.

Jaws is what everyone uses because it is.

It doesn't matter if jaws becomes utter crap, it simply will be like that till they will leave.

And even if some of these organisations from time to time may want to leave, I suspect they may not be able to at least not easily.

And if they leave they may not be able to come back.

On 8/19/2018 12:48 PM, coffeekingms@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi

This sounds like what I get sometimes when asking government agencies or companies that deal with the disabled why they won’t use open source apps like NVDA and open source Oses like Linux. They tend to sneer at Linux, the reasons vary, but usually come down to it’s not windows, and NVDA they seem to have some problem with. It’s somehow inferior to jaws or dolphin access’s products, even though I’ve used both NVDA and Linux distros and both serve my needs just fine. I’ve pretty much settled on a dual boot approach, I use both ubuntu mate with orca, and windows 10 with NVDA, and both work well, and I have no need for jaws, with the exception of fs reader, the daisy reading application. I don’t want to start a flame war, but these kinds of answers irritate me, because they basically boil down to we’re going to continue to do what we’ve always done, change is bad, open source is inferior and so on. And before someone points out that there are cases where jaws does work better, I’m well aware of that, but those cases are getting rarer and rarer, although they do still exist.

Thanks

Kendell Clark





Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10



________________________________
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 7:38:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

I actually brought that up to our bsb here, and they were telling me
they could not do that for security reasons and they would continue to
use jaws as jaws and freedom were a vender and nvda company were not.
Um, huh?

On 17 Aug 2018, at 22:35, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

I'll just say one more thing. Yes, I believe employers should give
NVDA a
chance. I remember telling a rehabilitation counselor one time that if
he
and other counselors would encourage their clients to use NVDA, they
would
save lots of money. Then the money they save could be used for things
like
microsoft word or things needed to do a job more efficiently.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Chris
Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 7:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

I'll just say this.
I do not understand why an employer would care what screen reader you
use.
So long as it doesn't interfere with their system, it should be the
blind
person's choice which screen reader to use.
I have JAWS installed, but rarely use it because NVDA serves my
purposes
just fine.
Not to mention, I love how NVDA let's you know when you have a
spelling
error while typing. JAWS will not do that. It will only tell you which
word
is misspelled if you read word by word.
What I'm trying to say is I wish employers would give it a chance
before
making a judgment.
Chris








Re: academics and employment

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

hi


Go to the following link at https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/snapshots/

there are both alfa snap shots as well as beta ones They pretty much say what the alfa ones are and the beta ones are what will go into nvda when it is released.


I started writing up how to report a issue to nvaccess and where to go to do it but not finished.


you also need to have a git hub account to report a ticket and the steps etc.


I was wondering if it may of been better just recording audio of where to go and what to expect  when you go to do it not sure.


What was written i will post below. I should really go back and finish it.


The basics of making a ticket for NVACCESS

 

From time to time you might need to report a bug to be fixed. Before you report the bug ask others on the list if they are getting the same results as you. NVACCESS will need as much information as possible so they can fix the problem.

Where to go to issue a bug to be fixed

 

 

If you are a user of the NVDA screen reader whether you use the next snap shot alpha code, the Master snap shot beta code or the stable version of NVDA that is released to the public, if you come across a bug it can be reported at the following web page at https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues

 

Getting a Git hub account or simply signing in

 

To report any issues to be fixed you must have a Git Hub account.  .

If you do not have a Git Hub account you will need to go to the sign up link then press the enter key. It will ask you for a user name, email address, password and once done locate the create a account button then press the space bar or enter key for it to be created.

If you already have a account it is just a matter of locating the sign in link and entering your details to log into git hub.

 

 

After you have signed into git hub

 

 

After you have signed into git hub to report an issue on your page you will have some links and buttons and headings. Do not worry about most of them. The first button is a search button, the second a create new button, the third a view profile and more button, and a sign out button. You will need to look for a new issue button this is found under the sign out button then press the enter key so a ticket can be created.

Before making a new issue you should do a search to see if a ticket has already been made. If this is the case you might be able to reply on another ticket if it matches the problems you are having.

If one can not be found then you would create a new issue.

Searching for an issue on git hub

 

 

Before you report a issue/bug report to NVACCESS you will need to do a search to see if anyone else has reported the bug. If one cannot be found then you will need to open a new issue. This is a button.

Press the ENTER key to do this.

 

A More direct link to make a ticket

 

 

If you have already signed up to git hub a more direct link to where you can make a ticket can be found at https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/new

 

You can arrow through the page to see all the sections.

 

As you go down the page you will hear the following.

This may depend if you arrow down the page or jump down by buttons. If you jump down by buttons you will hear the following. For example add header text button, add bold text button, add italic text button, insert a quote button, insert code button, add a link button, add a bulleted list button, add a numbered list button, add a task list button, insert a reply button, Directly mention a user or team, Reference an issue or pull request, browse button, submit new issue button.

In most cases you will not be Inserting  a reply to a Directly mention a user or team

Reference an issue or pull request unless you are replying to a ticket.

 

 

You may find it easier to arrow through rather than use single letter navigation keys to get all of the information.

 

Single letter navigation keys that can be used in browse mode

 

You can use B for buttons, K for links, E for edit areas and F for form fields .

 

They will need to know the following in the header text edit area what the issue is. For example

 

Under the ### Steps to reproduce:

> A list of the steps you take to demonstrate the problem.

> Example:

> 1. Open Chrome

> 2. Browse to www.google.com

> 3. Type "Hello"

> 4. Notice an error sound when enter is pressed.

 

> Please also remember to attach a zip of any files required to reproduce the issue.

 

### Expected behavior:

> Tell us what should happen.

 

### Actual behavior:

> Tell us what happens instead.

 

They will also need to know the NVDA version whether it is a next-14027,c80e529f

 Snap shot, or a master snap shot with its version number. Also whether it is a portable or installed version of NVDA.

Other information

 

They may need other information such as if it was > Example: Running in a VM

 

Windows version:

> Example: Windows 10 Version 1607 Build 14393.1066

 

 

 

### Other questions:

 

Does the issue still occur after restarting your PC?

 

Have you tried any other versions of NVDA?

> Please list them and the result

 

Browse…

No files selected.

Attach files by dragging & dropping, selecting them, or pasting from the clipboard. 

 

Under this section would be where you would post your NVDA log.

 

Make sure under the general settings in NVDA it is set to Logging level: debug

 

If you are lucky some one on the list might do the ticket for you but you will need to copy and paste the log into the email as attachments are blocked on the list.

 

 

After you have filled in the information that that they require locate the submit new issue button and your ticket will be created.

Please note

 

 

For NVACCESS to try and track down any bugs to be fixed you need to have the steps to recreate the problem you are having. Make sure your Logging level: is set to debug is set under the General settings in NVDA. You can also obtain the log which it produces from the Tool.. view log section in NVDA. A log will be produced after you press the enter key on the view log menu. Press the ALT key until a menu drops down then arrow down to you hear NVDA say save log as then press the ENTER key. NVDA will default to the file name then it is a matter of tabbing until you hear a location to save the file to  as the Desk top then shift/tabbing back to the save button then pressing the enter key on the save button.

 

A much quicker way to get to your NVDA log is by pressing the NVDA key +f1key , CTRL then +letter A to select all

characters, ctrl+c to copy, & then pasting CTRL key + letter V  into a email to send. Or it's in

c:\users\username\AppData\local\temp\nvda.log, which u can just

attach. If you have to restart NVDA, then it's in

c:\users\username\appdata\local\temp\nvda-old.log.

 

You cannot add attachments to a email only paste in the contents of the log. A attachment can be posted to a ticket.

 

 

   

For more information on using Git Hub with a screen reader which goes beyond making a ticket please go to the following link at http://bats.fyi/2016/08/19/mastering-github-with-a-screen-reader-part-1/

 

 

Gene nz


 




On 8/19/2018 10:55 AM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Where do I go to learn more about becoming an NVDA beta tester? Thanks.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of hurrikennyandopo ...
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 5:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

Hi

 

Is that not why they have people do beta testing etc in jaws etc as well to iron out stuff like that. So that would only be people who have jaws.

 

As you would already know nvaccess do have people test the alfa and beta snapshots to iron out problems before a stable is released. Some might slip through from time to time but will be fixed. Unless it can be re produced by other people the problem it might not get fixed for a while.

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 8/19/2018 10:08 AM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Thank you for sharing your insights on this! They were a pleasure to read. I like to read and write a lot. I do not mind reading long messages.

 

When I generalized about JAWS, I was being informal. I should have asked the group not to take my advice as solid proof. Overall, it sounds like what we really need to do is have a large group of people reproduce the exact steps that cause JAWS to crash, and if it is consistent on that large number of machines, we need to use a debugger and log files to step through the app or site JAWS is crashing on when it happens, document it, and send that report to Freedom Scientific.

 

The conclusion I drew from what you wrote, overall, is that nothing is perfect. I use the tools that will solve the problem along the way, and suggest improvements as I go.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 5:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

This message is rather long.  You may or may not want to read it all.  I hope you find it interesting and useful.

 

Others may be able to give you an answer or some sort of guide about a good sample size.  I don't have any formal answer.  Intermittent or not, if there is a performance problem on only one machine that is known, it can't be generalized to be a problem that affects a lot of or most machines without more information.  I never say the person isn't having the problem unless I know the cause and it isn't what is being claimed but off and on, when someone generalizes about a performance problem because they have it, I say that it hasn't been demonstrated that it is a general problem.

 

Recently, a member said they had the same problem on two or three computers.  Ssince the problem occurred in a very popular application and no one had reported it on any list I follow except him, I surmised and said, not as a definite conclusion, but as, what I consider to  be a likely state of affairs, that the person had done the same thing on all those machines, installed or uninstalled the same program or something, whatever it might be that caused the problem on all machines.  I use the nature of the problem, if I've seen it reported by others, and other factors, if they seem relevant, but my main point is that I see people generalize about a product by saying how terrible it is because of a performance problem on their machine and generalization can't be done. 

 

As far as the announcement of visited links is concerned, I believe that is true, that it can't be turned on or off.  But not to use a screen-reader because of one tiny behavior like that is, in my opinion, absurd. 

 

If someone is that bothered by visited link announcement, delete browsing history.  That's what visited links are determined by.  The information is stored in browsing history and turning it off will cause all links to be shown as unvisited. 

 

Second, if you tab through links, or use the letter k to move just by links, you will hear the link spoken and visited spoken afterword.  This is another example of where NVDA should be user customizable.  You should be able to turn off visited as an announcement but further, you should be able to set NVDA to announce visited before or after a link and it should be consistent no matter how you move through links. 

 

As I said yesterday, it might be a good idea to have a small group convene and consider and get input from users about how NvDA should be made more customizable.  In this respect, you also can't adjust when other controls are heard, do you want to hear button or combo box or check box, for example, before or after you hear the text announced. 

 

I haven't used System Access enough for a long time to know how it may have changed in more recent years.  Regardless, it simply is more limited than NVDA on the Internet and in general.  It wasn't developed to be a powerful screen-reader, it was intended to be powerful enough to meet less demanding users' needs at a time when there were no or no decent considerably lower price alternatives to JAWS and Window-eyes whereas NVDA is intended to be a much more powerful screen-reader

 

Take one example, the simulated mouse in System Access is much less capable.  there are times when you must use the simulated mouse to activate a link or control.  But you often can't do it using the System Access mouse, at least that is my recollection.  And talk about annoyances, the simulated mouse in System Access is programmed to make a horrible nerve-grating noise when you click it.  What were they thinking?  In my opinion, that noise is much more disgusting and annoying than hearing the word "visited" when I don't want to. 

 

On the other hand, years ago, I used one or two web sites that couldn't be used to perform their main function when other screen-readers were used.  I could use a link or control to perform an essential action that wouldn't work with another screen-reader.  Also, on this or that page, System Access would read changes that occurred on the page, not where I was working when I would take an action and that was essential because I wouldn't have known that the page had changed otherwise even if I could have read the new material.  And it would have been ridiculously inefficient to look around the page every time I guessed that it might have changed somewhere.

 

There is no one ideal screen-reader and I strongly feel that not using a screen-reader because of this or that small or tiny behavior is absurd.  Such behaviors may be annoying but it's a classic example of the cliché about a mountain out of a molehill.

 

Gene

Gene----- Original Message ---------- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:57 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

I believe in using whatever resources are at my fingertips, in any given situation. If I come across an inaccessible app at work, I am not going to have the time to program out a fix for it, plus do the programming I do as part of my job, and meet the deadline.

 

The reason my friend uses System Access and not NVDA is that he claims with NVDA, you cannot turn off the announcement of visited and unvisited links.

 

Also, Gene, you were talking about sample size and testing software earlier. What is an accurate sample size for testing an intermittent problem? When JAWS crashes on the machines I used, it is intermittent. I wish they taught us more about troubleshooting intermittent problems in school. It is a skill that I have much room for growth in.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:51 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

System Access isn't nearly as powerful as NVDA but it works with web pages differently.  While this generally doesn't matter in terms of accessibility of web pages, at times it does.  So it's good to have as a resource.  But you don't have to install it.  Try System Access to Go.  As a once in awhile resource, it may be useful. 

You used to have to use System Access to Go with Internet Explorer.  I'm not sure now, though I believe that in order to use the talking feature that speaks when you open the web site, you still may. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:34 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

I had a problem with System Access where it totally locked up my computer when I installed it. I may have to retry. My friend keeps wanting me to try it.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Mike,

One time I had to fill out a survey for Hadley School and NVDA didn't see all the different fields for typing in information so I used system access to go. With system access to go, I was able to complete the survey.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student)
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Rosemarie, I am also context sensitive when it comes to screen readers. NVDA meets most of my needs. Where it does not, I use JAWS.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Chris,

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We all have the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.
After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used Jaws for years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my needs very well.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot have different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we just agree to disagree?"














 



Re: academics and employment

coffeekingms@hotmail.com
 

Hi

This sounds like what I get sometimes when asking government agencies or companies that deal with the disabled  why they won’t use open source apps like NVDA and open source Oses like Linux. They tend to sneer at Linux, the reasons vary, but usually come down to it’s not windows, and NVDA they seem to have some problem with. It’s somehow inferior to jaws or dolphin access’s products, even though I’ve used both NVDA and Linux distros and both serve my needs just fine. I’ve pretty much settled on a dual boot approach, I use both ubuntu mate with orca, and windows 10 with NVDA, and both work well, and I have no need for jaws, with the exception of fs reader, the daisy reading application. I don’t want to start a flame war, but these kinds of answers irritate me, because they  basically boil down to we’re going to continue to do what we’ve always done, change is bad, open source is inferior and so on. And before someone points out that there are cases where jaws does work better, I’m well aware of that, but those cases are getting rarer and rarer, although they do still exist.

Thanks

Kendell Clark

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 7:38:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment
 
I actually brought that up to our bsb here, and they were telling me
they could not do that for security reasons and they would  continue to
use jaws as jaws and freedom were a vender and nvda company were not.
Um, huh?

On 17 Aug 2018, at 22:35, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

> I'll just say one more thing. Yes, I believe employers should give
> NVDA a
> chance. I remember telling a rehabilitation counselor one time that if
> he
> and other counselors would encourage their clients to use NVDA, they
> would
> save lots of money. Then the money they save could be used for things
> like
> microsoft word or things needed to do a job more efficiently.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
> Chris
> Shook
> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 7:59 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment
>
> I'll just say this.
> I do not understand why an employer would care what screen reader you
> use.
> So long as it doesn't interfere with their system, it should be the
> blind
> person's choice which screen reader to use.
> I have JAWS installed, but rarely use it because NVDA serves my
> purposes
> just fine.
> Not to mention, I love how NVDA let's you know when you have a
> spelling
> error while typing. JAWS will not do that. It will only tell you which
> word
> is misspelled if you read word by word.
> What I'm trying to say is I wish employers would give it a chance
> before
> making a judgment.
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>




Re: academics and employment

Sarah k Alawami
 

I actually brought that up to our bsb here, and they were telling me they could not do that for security reasons and they would continue to use jaws as jaws and freedom were a vender and nvda company were not. Um, huh?

On 17 Aug 2018, at 22:35, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

I'll just say one more thing. Yes, I believe employers should give NVDA a chance. I remember telling a rehabilitation counselor one time that if he and other counselors would encourage their clients to use NVDA, they would save lots of money. Then the money they save could be used for things like microsoft word or things needed to do a job more efficiently.

-----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris Shook Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 7:59 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

I'll just say this. I do not understand why an employer would care what screen reader you use. So long as it doesn't interfere with their system, it should be the blind person's choice which screen reader to use. I have JAWS installed, but rarely use it because NVDA serves my purposes just fine. Not to mention, I love how NVDA let's you know when you have a spelling error while typing. JAWS will not do that. It will only tell you which word is misspelled if you read word by word. What I'm trying to say is I wish employers would give it a chance before making a judgment. Chris


Re: academics and employment

Mike
 

Where do I go to learn more about becoming an NVDA beta tester? Thanks.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of hurrikennyandopo ...
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 5:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

Hi

 

Is that not why they have people do beta testing etc in jaws etc as well to iron out stuff like that. So that would only be people who have jaws.

 

As you would already know nvaccess do have people test the alfa and beta snapshots to iron out problems before a stable is released. Some might slip through from time to time but will be fixed. Unless it can be re produced by other people the problem it might not get fixed for a while.

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 8/19/2018 10:08 AM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Thank you for sharing your insights on this! They were a pleasure to read. I like to read and write a lot. I do not mind reading long messages.

 

When I generalized about JAWS, I was being informal. I should have asked the group not to take my advice as solid proof. Overall, it sounds like what we really need to do is have a large group of people reproduce the exact steps that cause JAWS to crash, and if it is consistent on that large number of machines, we need to use a debugger and log files to step through the app or site JAWS is crashing on when it happens, document it, and send that report to Freedom Scientific.

 

The conclusion I drew from what you wrote, overall, is that nothing is perfect. I use the tools that will solve the problem along the way, and suggest improvements as I go.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 5:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

This message is rather long.  You may or may not want to read it all.  I hope you find it interesting and useful.

 

Others may be able to give you an answer or some sort of guide about a good sample size.  I don't have any formal answer.  Intermittent or not, if there is a performance problem on only one machine that is known, it can't be generalized to be a problem that affects a lot of or most machines without more information.  I never say the person isn't having the problem unless I know the cause and it isn't what is being claimed but off and on, when someone generalizes about a performance problem because they have it, I say that it hasn't been demonstrated that it is a general problem.

 

Recently, a member said they had the same problem on two or three computers.  Ssince the problem occurred in a very popular application and no one had reported it on any list I follow except him, I surmised and said, not as a definite conclusion, but as, what I consider to  be a likely state of affairs, that the person had done the same thing on all those machines, installed or uninstalled the same program or something, whatever it might be that caused the problem on all machines.  I use the nature of the problem, if I've seen it reported by others, and other factors, if they seem relevant, but my main point is that I see people generalize about a product by saying how terrible it is because of a performance problem on their machine and generalization can't be done. 

 

As far as the announcement of visited links is concerned, I believe that is true, that it can't be turned on or off.  But not to use a screen-reader because of one tiny behavior like that is, in my opinion, absurd. 

 

If someone is that bothered by visited link announcement, delete browsing history.  That's what visited links are determined by.  The information is stored in browsing history and turning it off will cause all links to be shown as unvisited. 

 

Second, if you tab through links, or use the letter k to move just by links, you will hear the link spoken and visited spoken afterword.  This is another example of where NVDA should be user customizable.  You should be able to turn off visited as an announcement but further, you should be able to set NVDA to announce visited before or after a link and it should be consistent no matter how you move through links. 

 

As I said yesterday, it might be a good idea to have a small group convene and consider and get input from users about how NvDA should be made more customizable.  In this respect, you also can't adjust when other controls are heard, do you want to hear button or combo box or check box, for example, before or after you hear the text announced. 

 

I haven't used System Access enough for a long time to know how it may have changed in more recent years.  Regardless, it simply is more limited than NVDA on the Internet and in general.  It wasn't developed to be a powerful screen-reader, it was intended to be powerful enough to meet less demanding users' needs at a time when there were no or no decent considerably lower price alternatives to JAWS and Window-eyes whereas NVDA is intended to be a much more powerful screen-reader

 

Take one example, the simulated mouse in System Access is much less capable.  there are times when you must use the simulated mouse to activate a link or control.  But you often can't do it using the System Access mouse, at least that is my recollection.  And talk about annoyances, the simulated mouse in System Access is programmed to make a horrible nerve-grating noise when you click it.  What were they thinking?  In my opinion, that noise is much more disgusting and annoying than hearing the word "visited" when I don't want to. 

 

On the other hand, years ago, I used one or two web sites that couldn't be used to perform their main function when other screen-readers were used.  I could use a link or control to perform an essential action that wouldn't work with another screen-reader.  Also, on this or that page, System Access would read changes that occurred on the page, not where I was working when I would take an action and that was essential because I wouldn't have known that the page had changed otherwise even if I could have read the new material.  And it would have been ridiculously inefficient to look around the page every time I guessed that it might have changed somewhere.

 

There is no one ideal screen-reader and I strongly feel that not using a screen-reader because of this or that small or tiny behavior is absurd.  Such behaviors may be annoying but it's a classic example of the cliché about a mountain out of a molehill.

 

Gene

Gene----- Original Message ---------- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:57 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

I believe in using whatever resources are at my fingertips, in any given situation. If I come across an inaccessible app at work, I am not going to have the time to program out a fix for it, plus do the programming I do as part of my job, and meet the deadline.

 

The reason my friend uses System Access and not NVDA is that he claims with NVDA, you cannot turn off the announcement of visited and unvisited links.

 

Also, Gene, you were talking about sample size and testing software earlier. What is an accurate sample size for testing an intermittent problem? When JAWS crashes on the machines I used, it is intermittent. I wish they taught us more about troubleshooting intermittent problems in school. It is a skill that I have much room for growth in.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:51 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

System Access isn't nearly as powerful as NVDA but it works with web pages differently.  While this generally doesn't matter in terms of accessibility of web pages, at times it does.  So it's good to have as a resource.  But you don't have to install it.  Try System Access to Go.  As a once in awhile resource, it may be useful. 

You used to have to use System Access to Go with Internet Explorer.  I'm not sure now, though I believe that in order to use the talking feature that speaks when you open the web site, you still may. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:34 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

I had a problem with System Access where it totally locked up my computer when I installed it. I may have to retry. My friend keeps wanting me to try it.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Mike,

One time I had to fill out a survey for Hadley School and NVDA didn't see all the different fields for typing in information so I used system access to go. With system access to go, I was able to complete the survey.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student)
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Rosemarie, I am also context sensitive when it comes to screen readers. NVDA meets most of my needs. Where it does not, I use JAWS.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Chris,

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We all have the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.
After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used Jaws for years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my needs very well.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot have different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we just agree to disagree?"














 


Re: academics and employment

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


Is that not why they have people do beta testing etc in jaws etc as well to iron out stuff like that. So that would only be people who have jaws.


As you would already know nvaccess do have people test the alfa and beta snapshots to iron out problems before a stable is released. Some might slip through from time to time but will be fixed. Unless it can be re produced by other people the problem it might not get fixed for a while.


Gene nz



On 8/19/2018 10:08 AM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Thank you for sharing your insights on this! They were a pleasure to read. I like to read and write a lot. I do not mind reading long messages.

 

When I generalized about JAWS, I was being informal. I should have asked the group not to take my advice as solid proof. Overall, it sounds like what we really need to do is have a large group of people reproduce the exact steps that cause JAWS to crash, and if it is consistent on that large number of machines, we need to use a debugger and log files to step through the app or site JAWS is crashing on when it happens, document it, and send that report to Freedom Scientific.

 

The conclusion I drew from what you wrote, overall, is that nothing is perfect. I use the tools that will solve the problem along the way, and suggest improvements as I go.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 5:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

This message is rather long.  You may or may not want to read it all.  I hope you find it interesting and useful.

 

Others may be able to give you an answer or some sort of guide about a good sample size.  I don't have any formal answer.  Intermittent or not, if there is a performance problem on only one machine that is known, it can't be generalized to be a problem that affects a lot of or most machines without more information.  I never say the person isn't having the problem unless I know the cause and it isn't what is being claimed but off and on, when someone generalizes about a performance problem because they have it, I say that it hasn't been demonstrated that it is a general problem.

 

Recently, a member said they had the same problem on two or three computers.  Ssince the problem occurred in a very popular application and no one had reported it on any list I follow except him, I surmised and said, not as a definite conclusion, but as, what I consider to  be a likely state of affairs, that the person had done the same thing on all those machines, installed or uninstalled the same program or something, whatever it might be that caused the problem on all machines.  I use the nature of the problem, if I've seen it reported by others, and other factors, if they seem relevant, but my main point is that I see people generalize about a product by saying how terrible it is because of a performance problem on their machine and generalization can't be done. 

 

As far as the announcement of visited links is concerned, I believe that is true, that it can't be turned on or off.  But not to use a screen-reader because of one tiny behavior like that is, in my opinion, absurd. 

 

If someone is that bothered by visited link announcement, delete browsing history.  That's what visited links are determined by.  The information is stored in browsing history and turning it off will cause all links to be shown as unvisited. 

 

Second, if you tab through links, or use the letter k to move just by links, you will hear the link spoken and visited spoken afterword.  This is another example of where NVDA should be user customizable.  You should be able to turn off visited as an announcement but further, you should be able to set NVDA to announce visited before or after a link and it should be consistent no matter how you move through links. 

 

As I said yesterday, it might be a good idea to have a small group convene and consider and get input from users about how NvDA should be made more customizable.  In this respect, you also can't adjust when other controls are heard, do you want to hear button or combo box or check box, for example, before or after you hear the text announced. 

 

I haven't used System Access enough for a long time to know how it may have changed in more recent years.  Regardless, it simply is more limited than NVDA on the Internet and in general.  It wasn't developed to be a powerful screen-reader, it was intended to be powerful enough to meet less demanding users' needs at a time when there were no or no decent considerably lower price alternatives to JAWS and Window-eyes whereas NVDA is intended to be a much more powerful screen-reader

 

Take one example, the simulated mouse in System Access is much less capable.  there are times when you must use the simulated mouse to activate a link or control.  But you often can't do it using the System Access mouse, at least that is my recollection.  And talk about annoyances, the simulated mouse in System Access is programmed to make a horrible nerve-grating noise when you click it.  What were they thinking?  In my opinion, that noise is much more disgusting and annoying than hearing the word "visited" when I don't want to. 

 

On the other hand, years ago, I used one or two web sites that couldn't be used to perform their main function when other screen-readers were used.  I could use a link or control to perform an essential action that wouldn't work with another screen-reader.  Also, on this or that page, System Access would read changes that occurred on the page, not where I was working when I would take an action and that was essential because I wouldn't have known that the page had changed otherwise even if I could have read the new material.  And it would have been ridiculously inefficient to look around the page every time I guessed that it might have changed somewhere.

 

There is no one ideal screen-reader and I strongly feel that not using a screen-reader because of this or that small or tiny behavior is absurd.  Such behaviors may be annoying but it's a classic example of the cliché about a mountain out of a molehill.

 

Gene

Gene----- Original Message ---------- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:57 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

I believe in using whatever resources are at my fingertips, in any given situation. If I come across an inaccessible app at work, I am not going to have the time to program out a fix for it, plus do the programming I do as part of my job, and meet the deadline.

 

The reason my friend uses System Access and not NVDA is that he claims with NVDA, you cannot turn off the announcement of visited and unvisited links.

 

Also, Gene, you were talking about sample size and testing software earlier. What is an accurate sample size for testing an intermittent problem? When JAWS crashes on the machines I used, it is intermittent. I wish they taught us more about troubleshooting intermittent problems in school. It is a skill that I have much room for growth in.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:51 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

System Access isn't nearly as powerful as NVDA but it works with web pages differently.  While this generally doesn't matter in terms of accessibility of web pages, at times it does.  So it's good to have as a resource.  But you don't have to install it.  Try System Access to Go.  As a once in awhile resource, it may be useful. 

You used to have to use System Access to Go with Internet Explorer.  I'm not sure now, though I believe that in order to use the talking feature that speaks when you open the web site, you still may. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:34 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

I had a problem with System Access where it totally locked up my computer when I installed it. I may have to retry. My friend keeps wanting me to try it.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Mike,

One time I had to fill out a survey for Hadley School and NVDA didn't see all the different fields for typing in information so I used system access to go. With system access to go, I was able to complete the survey.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student)
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Rosemarie, I am also context sensitive when it comes to screen readers. NVDA meets most of my needs. Where it does not, I use JAWS.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Chris,

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We all have the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.
After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used Jaws for years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my needs very well.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot have different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we just agree to disagree?"















Re: academics and employment

Gene
 

I'm glad you enjoyed it and found it useful. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Thank you for sharing your insights on this! They were a pleasure to read. I like to read and write a lot. I do not mind reading long messages.

 

When I generalized about JAWS, I was being informal. I should have asked the group not to take my advice as solid proof. Overall, it sounds like what we really need to do is have a large group of people reproduce the exact steps that cause JAWS to crash, and if it is consistent on that large number of machines, we need to use a debugger and log files to step through the app or site JAWS is crashing on when it happens, document it, and send that report to Freedom Scientific.

 

The conclusion I drew from what you wrote, overall, is that nothing is perfect. I use the tools that will solve the problem along the way, and suggest improvements as I go.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 5:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

This message is rather long.  You may or may not want to read it all.  I hope you find it interesting and useful.

 

Others may be able to give you an answer or some sort of guide about a good sample size.  I don't have any formal answer.  Intermittent or not, if there is a performance problem on only one machine that is known, it can't be generalized to be a problem that affects a lot of or most machines without more information.  I never say the person isn't having the problem unless I know the cause and it isn't what is being claimed but off and on, when someone generalizes about a performance problem because they have it, I say that it hasn't been demonstrated that it is a general problem.

 

Recently, a member said they had the same problem on two or three computers.  Ssince the problem occurred in a very popular application and no one had reported it on any list I follow except him, I surmised and said, not as a definite conclusion, but as, what I consider to  be a likely state of affairs, that the person had done the same thing on all those machines, installed or uninstalled the same program or something, whatever it might be that caused the problem on all machines.  I use the nature of the problem, if I've seen it reported by others, and other factors, if they seem relevant, but my main point is that I see people generalize about a product by saying how terrible it is because of a performance problem on their machine and generalization can't be done. 

 

As far as the announcement of visited links is concerned, I believe that is true, that it can't be turned on or off.  But not to use a screen-reader because of one tiny behavior like that is, in my opinion, absurd. 

 

If someone is that bothered by visited link announcement, delete browsing history.  That's what visited links are determined by.  The information is stored in browsing history and turning it off will cause all links to be shown as unvisited. 

 

Second, if you tab through links, or use the letter k to move just by links, you will hear the link spoken and visited spoken afterword.  This is another example of where NVDA should be user customizable.  You should be able to turn off visited as an announcement but further, you should be able to set NVDA to announce visited before or after a link and it should be consistent no matter how you move through links. 

 

As I said yesterday, it might be a good idea to have a small group convene and consider and get input from users about how NvDA should be made more customizable.  In this respect, you also can't adjust when other controls are heard, do you want to hear button or combo box or check box, for example, before or after you hear the text announced. 

 

I haven't used System Access enough for a long time to know how it may have changed in more recent years.  Regardless, it simply is more limited than NVDA on the Internet and in general.  It wasn't developed to be a powerful screen-reader, it was intended to be powerful enough to meet less demanding users' needs at a time when there were no or no decent considerably lower price alternatives to JAWS and Window-eyes whereas NVDA is intended to be a much more powerful screen-reader

 

Take one example, the simulated mouse in System Access is much less capable.  there are times when you must use the simulated mouse to activate a link or control.  But you often can't do it using the System Access mouse, at least that is my recollection.  And talk about annoyances, the simulated mouse in System Access is programmed to make a horrible nerve-grating noise when you click it.  What were they thinking?  In my opinion, that noise is much more disgusting and annoying than hearing the word "visited" when I don't want to. 

 

On the other hand, years ago, I used one or two web sites that couldn't be used to perform their main function when other screen-readers were used.  I could use a link or control to perform an essential action that wouldn't work with another screen-reader.  Also, on this or that page, System Access would read changes that occurred on the page, not where I was working when I would take an action and that was essential because I wouldn't have known that the page had changed otherwise even if I could have read the new material.  And it would have been ridiculously inefficient to look around the page every time I guessed that it might have changed somewhere.

 

There is no one ideal screen-reader and I strongly feel that not using a screen-reader because of this or that small or tiny behavior is absurd.  Such behaviors may be annoying but it's a classic example of the cliché about a mountain out of a molehill.

 

Gene

Gene----- Original Message ---------- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:57 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

I believe in using whatever resources are at my fingertips, in any given situation. If I come across an inaccessible app at work, I am not going to have the time to program out a fix for it, plus do the programming I do as part of my job, and meet the deadline.

 

The reason my friend uses System Access and not NVDA is that he claims with NVDA, you cannot turn off the announcement of visited and unvisited links.

 

Also, Gene, you were talking about sample size and testing software earlier. What is an accurate sample size for testing an intermittent problem? When JAWS crashes on the machines I used, it is intermittent. I wish they taught us more about troubleshooting intermittent problems in school. It is a skill that I have much room for growth in.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:51 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

System Access isn't nearly as powerful as NVDA but it works with web pages differently.  While this generally doesn't matter in terms of accessibility of web pages, at times it does.  So it's good to have as a resource.  But you don't have to install it.  Try System Access to Go.  As a once in awhile resource, it may be useful. 

You used to have to use System Access to Go with Internet Explorer.  I'm not sure now, though I believe that in order to use the talking feature that speaks when you open the web site, you still may. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:34 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

I had a problem with System Access where it totally locked up my computer when I installed it. I may have to retry. My friend keeps wanting me to try it.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Mike,

One time I had to fill out a survey for Hadley School and NVDA didn't see all the different fields for typing in information so I used system access to go. With system access to go, I was able to complete the survey.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student)
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Rosemarie, I am also context sensitive when it comes to screen readers. NVDA meets most of my needs. Where it does not, I use JAWS.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Chris,

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We all have the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.
After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used Jaws for years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my needs very well.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot have different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we just agree to disagree?"














Re: academics and employment

Mike
 

Thank you for sharing your insights on this! They were a pleasure to read. I like to read and write a lot. I do not mind reading long messages.

 

When I generalized about JAWS, I was being informal. I should have asked the group not to take my advice as solid proof. Overall, it sounds like what we really need to do is have a large group of people reproduce the exact steps that cause JAWS to crash, and if it is consistent on that large number of machines, we need to use a debugger and log files to step through the app or site JAWS is crashing on when it happens, document it, and send that report to Freedom Scientific.

 

The conclusion I drew from what you wrote, overall, is that nothing is perfect. I use the tools that will solve the problem along the way, and suggest improvements as I go.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 5:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

This message is rather long.  You may or may not want to read it all.  I hope you find it interesting and useful.

 

Others may be able to give you an answer or some sort of guide about a good sample size.  I don't have any formal answer.  Intermittent or not, if there is a performance problem on only one machine that is known, it can't be generalized to be a problem that affects a lot of or most machines without more information.  I never say the person isn't having the problem unless I know the cause and it isn't what is being claimed but off and on, when someone generalizes about a performance problem because they have it, I say that it hasn't been demonstrated that it is a general problem.

 

Recently, a member said they had the same problem on two or three computers.  Ssince the problem occurred in a very popular application and no one had reported it on any list I follow except him, I surmised and said, not as a definite conclusion, but as, what I consider to  be a likely state of affairs, that the person had done the same thing on all those machines, installed or uninstalled the same program or something, whatever it might be that caused the problem on all machines.  I use the nature of the problem, if I've seen it reported by others, and other factors, if they seem relevant, but my main point is that I see people generalize about a product by saying how terrible it is because of a performance problem on their machine and generalization can't be done. 

 

As far as the announcement of visited links is concerned, I believe that is true, that it can't be turned on or off.  But not to use a screen-reader because of one tiny behavior like that is, in my opinion, absurd. 

 

If someone is that bothered by visited link announcement, delete browsing history.  That's what visited links are determined by.  The information is stored in browsing history and turning it off will cause all links to be shown as unvisited. 

 

Second, if you tab through links, or use the letter k to move just by links, you will hear the link spoken and visited spoken afterword.  This is another example of where NVDA should be user customizable.  You should be able to turn off visited as an announcement but further, you should be able to set NVDA to announce visited before or after a link and it should be consistent no matter how you move through links. 

 

As I said yesterday, it might be a good idea to have a small group convene and consider and get input from users about how NvDA should be made more customizable.  In this respect, you also can't adjust when other controls are heard, do you want to hear button or combo box or check box, for example, before or after you hear the text announced. 

 

I haven't used System Access enough for a long time to know how it may have changed in more recent years.  Regardless, it simply is more limited than NVDA on the Internet and in general.  It wasn't developed to be a powerful screen-reader, it was intended to be powerful enough to meet less demanding users' needs at a time when there were no or no decent considerably lower price alternatives to JAWS and Window-eyes whereas NVDA is intended to be a much more powerful screen-reader

 

Take one example, the simulated mouse in System Access is much less capable.  there are times when you must use the simulated mouse to activate a link or control.  But you often can't do it using the System Access mouse, at least that is my recollection.  And talk about annoyances, the simulated mouse in System Access is programmed to make a horrible nerve-grating noise when you click it.  What were they thinking?  In my opinion, that noise is much more disgusting and annoying than hearing the word "visited" when I don't want to. 

 

On the other hand, years ago, I used one or two web sites that couldn't be used to perform their main function when other screen-readers were used.  I could use a link or control to perform an essential action that wouldn't work with another screen-reader.  Also, on this or that page, System Access would read changes that occurred on the page, not where I was working when I would take an action and that was essential because I wouldn't have known that the page had changed otherwise even if I could have read the new material.  And it would have been ridiculously inefficient to look around the page every time I guessed that it might have changed somewhere.

 

There is no one ideal screen-reader and I strongly feel that not using a screen-reader because of this or that small or tiny behavior is absurd.  Such behaviors may be annoying but it's a classic example of the cliché about a mountain out of a molehill.

 

Gene

Gene----- Original Message ---------- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:57 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

I believe in using whatever resources are at my fingertips, in any given situation. If I come across an inaccessible app at work, I am not going to have the time to program out a fix for it, plus do the programming I do as part of my job, and meet the deadline.

 

The reason my friend uses System Access and not NVDA is that he claims with NVDA, you cannot turn off the announcement of visited and unvisited links.

 

Also, Gene, you were talking about sample size and testing software earlier. What is an accurate sample size for testing an intermittent problem? When JAWS crashes on the machines I used, it is intermittent. I wish they taught us more about troubleshooting intermittent problems in school. It is a skill that I have much room for growth in.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:51 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

System Access isn't nearly as powerful as NVDA but it works with web pages differently.  While this generally doesn't matter in terms of accessibility of web pages, at times it does.  So it's good to have as a resource.  But you don't have to install it.  Try System Access to Go.  As a once in awhile resource, it may be useful. 

You used to have to use System Access to Go with Internet Explorer.  I'm not sure now, though I believe that in order to use the talking feature that speaks when you open the web site, you still may. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:34 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

I had a problem with System Access where it totally locked up my computer when I installed it. I may have to retry. My friend keeps wanting me to try it.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Mike,

One time I had to fill out a survey for Hadley School and NVDA didn't see all the different fields for typing in information so I used system access to go. With system access to go, I was able to complete the survey.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student)
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Rosemarie, I am also context sensitive when it comes to screen readers. NVDA meets most of my needs. Where it does not, I use JAWS.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Chris,

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We all have the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.
After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used Jaws for years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my needs very well.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot have different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we just agree to disagree?"














Re: academics and employment

Gene
 

This message is rather long.  You may or may not want to read it all.  I hope you find it interesting and useful.
 
Others may be able to give you an answer or some sort of guide about a good sample size.  I don't have any formal answer.  Intermittent or not, if there is a performance problem on only one machine that is known, it can't be generalized to be a problem that affects a lot of or most machines without more information.  I never say the person isn't having the problem unless I know the cause and it isn't what is being claimed but off and on, when someone generalizes about a performance problem because they have it, I say that it hasn't been demonstrated that it is a general problem.
 
Recently, a member said they had the same problem on two or three computers.  Ssince the problem occurred in a very popular application and no one had reported it on any list I follow except him, I surmised and said, not as a definite conclusion, but as, what I consider to  be a likely state of affairs, that the person had done the same thing on all those machines, installed or uninstalled the same program or something, whatever it might be that caused the problem on all machines.  I use the nature of the problem, if I've seen it reported by others, and other factors, if they seem relevant, but my main point is that I see people generalize about a product by saying how terrible it is because of a performance problem on their machine and generalization can't be done. 
 
As far as the announcement of visited links is concerned, I believe that is true, that it can't be turned on or off.  But not to use a screen-reader because of one tiny behavior like that is, in my opinion, absurd. 
 
If someone is that bothered by visited link announcement, delete browsing history.  That's what visited links are determined by.  The information is stored in browsing history and turning it off will cause all links to be shown as unvisited. 
 
Second, if you tab through links, or use the letter k to move just by links, you will hear the link spoken and visited spoken afterword.  This is another example of where NVDA should be user customizable.  You should be able to turn off visited as an announcement but further, you should be able to set NVDA to announce visited before or after a link and it should be consistent no matter how you move through links. 
 
As I said yesterday, it might be a good idea to have a small group convene and consider and get input from users about how NvDA should be made more customizable.  In this respect, you also can't adjust when other controls are heard, do you want to hear button or combo box or check box, for example, before or after you hear the text announced. 
 
I haven't used System Access enough for a long time to know how it may have changed in more recent years.  Regardless, it simply is more limited than NVDA on the Internet and in general.  It wasn't developed to be a powerful screen-reader, it was intended to be powerful enough to meet less demanding users' needs at a time when there were no or no decent considerably lower price alternatives to JAWS and Window-eyes whereas NVDA is intended to be a much more powerful screen-reader
 
Take one example, the simulated mouse in System Access is much less capable.  there are times when you must use the simulated mouse to activate a link or control.  But you often can't do it using the System Access mouse, at least that is my recollection.  And talk about annoyances, the simulated mouse in System Access is programmed to make a horrible nerve-grating noise when you click it.  What were they thinking?  In my opinion, that noise is much more disgusting and annoying than hearing the word "visited" when I don't want to. 
 
On the other hand, years ago, I used one or two web sites that couldn't be used to perform their main function when other screen-readers were used.  I could use a link or control to perform an essential action that wouldn't work with another screen-reader.  Also, on this or that page, System Access would read changes that occurred on the page, not where I was working when I would take an action and that was essential because I wouldn't have known that the page had changed otherwise even if I could have read the new material.  And it would have been ridiculously inefficient to look around the page every time I guessed that it might have changed somewhere.
 
There is no one ideal screen-reader and I strongly feel that not using a screen-reader because of this or that small or tiny behavior is absurd.  Such behaviors may be annoying but it's a classic example of the cliché about a mountain out of a molehill.
 
Gene

Gene----- Original Message ---------- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

I believe in using whatever resources are at my fingertips, in any given situation. If I come across an inaccessible app at work, I am not going to have the time to program out a fix for it, plus do the programming I do as part of my job, and meet the deadline.

 

The reason my friend uses System Access and not NVDA is that he claims with NVDA, you cannot turn off the announcement of visited and unvisited links.

 

Also, Gene, you were talking about sample size and testing software earlier. What is an accurate sample size for testing an intermittent problem? When JAWS crashes on the machines I used, it is intermittent. I wish they taught us more about troubleshooting intermittent problems in school. It is a skill that I have much room for growth in.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:51 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

System Access isn't nearly as powerful as NVDA but it works with web pages differently.  While this generally doesn't matter in terms of accessibility of web pages, at times it does.  So it's good to have as a resource.  But you don't have to install it.  Try System Access to Go.  As a once in awhile resource, it may be useful. 

You used to have to use System Access to Go with Internet Explorer.  I'm not sure now, though I believe that in order to use the talking feature that speaks when you open the web site, you still may. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:34 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

I had a problem with System Access where it totally locked up my computer when I installed it. I may have to retry. My friend keeps wanting me to try it.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Mike,

One time I had to fill out a survey for Hadley School and NVDA didn't see all the different fields for typing in information so I used system access to go. With system access to go, I was able to complete the survey.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student)
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Rosemarie, I am also context sensitive when it comes to screen readers. NVDA meets most of my needs. Where it does not, I use JAWS.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Chris,

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We all have the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.
After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used Jaws for years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my needs very well.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot have different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we just agree to disagree?"















Re: academics and employment

Mike
 

I believe in using whatever resources are at my fingertips, in any given situation. If I come across an inaccessible app at work, I am not going to have the time to program out a fix for it, plus do the programming I do as part of my job, and meet the deadline.

 

The reason my friend uses System Access and not NVDA is that he claims with NVDA, you cannot turn off the announcement of visited and unvisited links.

 

Also, Gene, you were talking about sample size and testing software earlier. What is an accurate sample size for testing an intermittent problem? When JAWS crashes on the machines I used, it is intermittent. I wish they taught us more about troubleshooting intermittent problems in school. It is a skill that I have much room for growth in.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:51 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

System Access isn't nearly as powerful as NVDA but it works with web pages differently.  While this generally doesn't matter in terms of accessibility of web pages, at times it does.  So it's good to have as a resource.  But you don't have to install it.  Try System Access to Go.  As a once in awhile resource, it may be useful. 

You used to have to use System Access to Go with Internet Explorer.  I'm not sure now, though I believe that in order to use the talking feature that speaks when you open the web site, you still may. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:34 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

I had a problem with System Access where it totally locked up my computer when I installed it. I may have to retry. My friend keeps wanting me to try it.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Mike,

One time I had to fill out a survey for Hadley School and NVDA didn't see all the different fields for typing in information so I used system access to go. With system access to go, I was able to complete the survey.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student)
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Rosemarie, I am also context sensitive when it comes to screen readers. NVDA meets most of my needs. Where it does not, I use JAWS.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Chris,

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We all have the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.
After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used Jaws for years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my needs very well.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot have different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we just agree to disagree?"















Re: academics and employment

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

You can also listen to Jonathan Mosens Blind Side podcasts and also his daily fibre on mushroom fm, the latter particularly has had some news on narrator.
I guess since he also does the FS podcast, he has to walk a little bit of a delicate way here!

As for what it did, well back in the previous incarnation before my last 10 machine blew up, it seemed better at many of the text reading in the various applets for configuring windows than nvda did.

Since I'm not really that bothered in windows 10 at the moment, then I cannot say if this has been maintained or not.
I think, to be honest, the problem with windows 10 is this new operating system every six months thing. I really would like there to be a bog standard version that , say was ok for some years, not a complete guess what the updated version will bust as we seem to have at the moment.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment


On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 03:39 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:


I have tried recent Narrator
Which, by the way, is about to get a big, honkin' overhaul when Version 1809 hits the streets. From what I've heard (as I don't do insider builds anymore) the command structure is being significantly modified to bring it more in line with the NVDA & JAWS worlds, but don't quote me on that.

In any case, I postponed doing any major digging in to Narrator until Version 1809 of Windows 10 comes out simply because it's been said the changes are significant and I really don't want to teach myself something much of which may become obsolete in a few short months. It certainly shows that Microsoft is not backing off on continuing development and improvement on Narrator.

For anyone who might be interested in additional details, I believe several members of the Windows 10 for Screen Reader Users group know quite a bit more about what's around the corner than I do. Send an e-mail message to win10+help@win10.groups.io to get a message back with subscription info and a lot more.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

~ Richard Dehmel


Re: academics and employment

Gene
 

System Access isn't nearly as powerful as NVDA but it works with web pages differently.  While this generally doesn't matter in terms of accessibility of web pages, at times it does.  So it's good to have as a resource.  But you don't have to install it.  Try System Access to Go.  As a once in awhile resource, it may be useful. 
You used to have to use System Access to Go with Internet Explorer.  I'm not sure now, though I believe that in order to use the talking feature that speaks when you open the web site, you still may. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

I had a problem with System Access where it totally locked up my computer when I installed it. I may have to retry. My friend keeps wanting me to try it.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Mike,

One time I had to fill out a survey for Hadley School and NVDA didn't see all the different fields for typing in information so I used system access to go. With system access to go, I was able to complete the survey.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student)
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Rosemarie, I am also context sensitive when it comes to screen readers. NVDA meets most of my needs. Where it does not, I use JAWS.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Chris,

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We all have the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.
After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used Jaws for years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my needs very well.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot have different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we just agree to disagree?"
















Re: academics and employment

Mike
 

I had a problem with System Access where it totally locked up my computer when I installed it. I may have to retry. My friend keeps wanting me to try it.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Mike,

One time I had to fill out a survey for Hadley School and NVDA didn't see all the different fields for typing in information so I used system access to go. With system access to go, I was able to complete the survey.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student)
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Rosemarie, I am also context sensitive when it comes to screen readers. NVDA meets most of my needs. Where it does not, I use JAWS.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Chris,

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We all have the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.
After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used Jaws for years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my needs very well.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot have different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we just agree to disagree?"


Re: academics and employment

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Mike,

One time I had to fill out a survey for Hadley School and NVDA didn't see
all the different fields for typing in information so I used system access
to go. With system access to go, I was able to complete the survey.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Walker,
Michael E. (UMSL-Student)
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Rosemarie, I am also context sensitive when it comes to screen readers. NVDA
meets most of my needs. Where it does not, I use JAWS.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie
Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Chris,

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We all
have the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.
After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used Jaws
for years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my needs
very well.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris
Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to
ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot have
different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we
just agree to disagree?"


The Essential Video Recorder

 

Greetings everyone,

I recently downloaded from Microsoft website the Essential Video
Recorder, but I have not been able to use it with NVDA.
I pressed enter on start recording button but did not work. Other
buttons did not function, either.
Has anyone of you tried it?
I would appreciate your comments.
Nevzat


Re: academics and employment

Mike
 

Rosemarie, I am also context sensitive when it comes to screen readers. NVDA meets most of my needs. Where it does not, I use JAWS.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Chris,

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We all have the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.
After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used Jaws for years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my needs very well.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot have different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we just agree to disagree?"


Re: academics and employment

 

Hi,

Yes – Narrator comes with a new modern keyboard layout that is similar in command structure to JAWS and NVDA. Note that this change is destined for Version 1809 (later this year).

There are other things that’s coming with Windows 10 Version 1809, some of which NVDA will support in 2018.3 (believe it or not, some of you are already testing this, and I sent out numerous advisories regarding this in recent weeks).

As for Win10 Forum for Screen Reader Users (owner: Joseph Lee, me), the subscription address is:

Win10+subscribe@groups.io

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 03:39 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

I have tried recent Narrator

Which, by the way, is about to get a big, honkin' overhaul when Version 1809 hits the streets.  From what I've heard (as I don't do insider builds anymore) the command structure is being significantly modified to bring it more in line with the NVDA & JAWS worlds, but don't quote me on that.

In any case, I postponed doing any major digging in to Narrator until Version 1809 of Windows 10 comes out simply because it's been said the changes are significant and I really don't want to teach myself something much of which may become obsolete in a few short months.  It certainly shows that Microsoft is not backing off on continuing development and improvement on Narrator.

For anyone who might be interested in additional details, I believe several members of the Windows 10 for Screen Reader Users group know quite a bit more about what's around the corner than I do.  Send an e-mail message to win10+help@win10.groups.io to get a message back with subscription info and a lot more.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: academics and employment

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 03:39 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:
I have tried recent Narrator
Which, by the way, is about to get a big, honkin' overhaul when Version 1809 hits the streets.  From what I've heard (as I don't do insider builds anymore) the command structure is being significantly modified to bring it more in line with the NVDA & JAWS worlds, but don't quote me on that.

In any case, I postponed doing any major digging in to Narrator until Version 1809 of Windows 10 comes out simply because it's been said the changes are significant and I really don't want to teach myself something much of which may become obsolete in a few short months.  It certainly shows that Microsoft is not backing off on continuing development and improvement on Narrator.

For anyone who might be interested in additional details, I believe several members of the Windows 10 for Screen Reader Users group know quite a bit more about what's around the corner than I do.  Send an e-mail message to win10+help@win10.groups.io to get a message back with subscription info and a lot more.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: groups.io will be down for maintenance this evening, starting at 9PM Pacific Time (4AM Saturday 8/18 UTC), for about two hours.

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 03:09 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Lets hope this is not them making changes that might affect accessibility.
No, it isn't, at least based on the response I received.

There is no winning here, really, as someone's always going to be unhappy.  I expect outages upon occasion for maintenance but I've been in the IT business for decades and they are standard operating procedure for non-mission-critical functions, and an e-mailing list/online forum can hardly be classed as mission critical.

Mark, the owner of the site, has gotten grief before for pushing out "to every member" and even "to every group owner" messages.  For myself, I firmly believe in "to every member" messages for instances such as this, so everyone knows exactly what's going on.  Others, however, disagree vehemently.

In any case, the maintenance is over and here we are. . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel