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Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?
On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 02:25 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Come to think of it, does this happen if things are "back to defaults" - not only settings, but with speech dictionary entries removed? You can replicate what I'm talking about iwth a fresh portable NVDA telling NVDA to not copy user settings whatsoever. I mention speech dictionaries as I know that some folks added regular expression entries that can cause NVDA (more precisely, Python) to recognize certain patterns and act differently (not a high probability, but something to investigate).- Which I will investigate, as it has me wondering myself, though I doubt anything I have in my default dictionary would do this. But this, again, comes back to design decisions. I don't think that NVDA's dialogs in particular should be subject to any dictionary processing. Certain things, and a dialog box such as this is a perfect example, need to be handled in exactly the same way, always, for every user, even if there are certain annoyances involved in that. It needs to be "a pure interaction, not even possibly clouded by other user preferences, because of precisely what's being manipulated. I can only imagine the chaos that could ensue if Quentin's long ago example of dictionary processing, where replacements were then subject to replacement themselves, several times, were occurring when working with a dialog box. Uh, no. Never. And it is avoidable if that avoidance is designed in. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly. ~ Vance Packard |
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Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?
Hi, To answer Gene's question, see my explanation on column/row header announcement internals. Come to think of it, does this happen if things are "back to defaults" - not only settings, but with speech dictionary entries removed? You can replicate what I'm talking about iwth a fresh portable NVDA telling NVDA to not copy user settings whatsoever. I mention speech dictionaries as I know that some folks added regular expression entries that can cause NVDA (more precisely, Python) to recognize certain patterns and act differently (not a high probability, but something to investigate). Cheers, Joseph |
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Re: apostrophe pronunciation
Dave Grossoehme
After changing the punctuation if it is in a word such as don't will the word be pronounced or do you need to make farther changes? Dave
On 8/19/2022 1:11 AM, Ravindran V.S.
wrote:
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Re: Math Reading Issues (pronunciation of x^3, y^3)
On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 01:42 PM, Rui Fontes wrote:
- Which is precisely the point and the problem. It's isolated to cubed variables, and one of them, the X one, is at least far closer to what it should be than the Y one is. All other instances referenced make it crystal clear that the announcement is both correct, and in English. I don't know how that could possibly have been clearer from the initial problem statement, message #98716. This is one of the best-written complex problem statements I've ever had the privilege to read on this group. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly. ~ Vance Packard |
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Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?
On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 01:33 PM, Gene wrote:
Why is extraneous material there in the first place?- An excellent question. It's ultra confusing for someone sighted, such as myself, because it is not visually present in that dialog. Things are arranged, precisely as I'd expect, in columns and you never see the "semi" being announced. Nor do you see a colon after the column headers. I do not understand, at all, what's going on here or what the decision-making process was to make it do what it's doing. But I cannot help but believe it would be even more confusing to a blind user, who cannot see the symbol/punctuation symbol that's not being spoken, than it was to me. I did a major double-take the first time I heard NVDA skip announcing the character I was actually working on and adding all the column separator punctuation (semi) and label termination punctuation (colon). Things are many times harder, in my opinion, to understand when an essential item is missing and extraneous items are repeated that are not even presented on-screen in the dialog itself. Hence the reason I created an issue. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly. ~ Vance Packard |
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Re: Math Reading Issues (pronunciation of x^3, y^3)
Rui Fontes
Hello!
To you "eekup" seems an english message? For me it is not an english message...
Rui Fontes
Às 18:33 de 19/08/2022, Brian Vogel
escreveu:
On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 01:24 PM, Rui Fontes wrote: |
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Re: Math Reading Issues (pronunciation of x^3, y^3)
On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 01:17 PM, Joy Holly wrote:
- And everyone here is trying to help you with narrowing down what, precisely, is at play here. For any screen reader, not just NVDA, it is the synthesizer that's in use that decides precisely how whatever is passed to it is pronounced. There are times a specific synthesizer just doesn't pronounce certain things at all well or as expected, and the first thing to do both for diagnosis and possible remediation is to try the same things you've been doing but with a different synthesizer in use. If another synth says exactly what you'd expect, then you have clear evidence it's "a synth thing." That's not something that developers would normally control, but the end-user does. It could be, as has been suggested, that Chrome is not playing well with MathML under a very specific circumstance, so trying exactly what you've been doing using Firefox instead is of direct diagnostic value. You've asked an excellent question, but there is no easy "one size fits all" answer. The diagnostic process of elimination must take place. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly. ~ Vance Packard |
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Re: Math Reading Issues (pronunciation of x^3, y^3)
On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 01:24 PM, Rui Fontes wrote:
- I have no idea what makes you say that. All indications are that English is the language in use and with very little reading between the lines. The query being posted here, in English, with the expected (and sometimes obtained) announcements from NVDA documented in English cannot be considered coincidental. A confirmation won't hurt, however. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly. ~ Vance Packard |
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Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?
Gene
I never had that problem because I usually have punctuation set to
none so I only heard the intended symbol.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I looked at the text character by character and semi is read because its actually there so what is there is being read accurately if you have punctuation set to a level like most. So the question is, should all extraneous punctuation be removed from the symbol field or should NVDA be scripted not to read it in the field? Why is extraneous material there in the first place? Why not only the one specific symbol you are working with. I'm not sure if I misunderstood messages discussing punctuation level before. If that is what they were talking about, then I did. Gene On 8/19/2022 12:18 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
An NVDA issue has been created on GitHub with the exact steps necessary to replicate (at least for me). All of the basic NVDA troubleshooting steps were taken (system restart, restarting NVDA with add-ons disabled, running COM registration fixing tool) and none solved the issue. |
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Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?
On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 12:55 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Visually there will be a table with two rows and three columns (first row: headers, second row: first entry). After NVDA asks the list view for its contents, NVDA will say, "name of the person; age: age; address: address field". Same thing is happening with punctuation/symbol pronunciation list view.- Joseph, Have a look at the issue I created. But completely aside from that issue, for myself, I definitely would never want the "colon" punctuation announced after a column name except on the title row itself, and it is being for me in the Symbols Pronunciation dialog. I cannot ever recall having reset anything away from defaults, at least levels-wise, for Symbol/Punctuation pronunciation. I do know that I changed how periods are announced to say period rather than dot in certain contexts, but that should have nothing to do with the issue at hand. And regardless of what I may have set my preferences to with regard to symbol/punctuation pronunciation, that should apply only when NVDA is reading something other than it's own settings dialogs. I need to hear exactly what I'm working with, in all cases, when in that dialog. I can't explain why I'm not, but I have done everything I can to isolate what's occurring and I still get nothing but "semi" announced if I've filtered by either the word "bang" or "tick" for those two characters. I don't know if it may occur for others, but I do know that this behavior is not for all characters. For example the interrobang is announced as interrobang for both the character and its default replacement string. Most characters that I've done quick and dirty checks on are behaving in that same way, which is what I would have expected for all of them. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly. ~ Vance Packard |
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Re: Math Reading Issues (pronunciation of x^3, y^3)
Rui Fontes
You did not answer in what language NVDA is working... English? Don't seems so...
Rui Fontes
Às 18:16 de 19/08/2022, Joy Holly
escreveu:
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Re: Math Reading Issues (pronunciation of x^3, y^3)
Hi, Another datapoint to consider: have you tried with Firefox? Cheers, Joseph |
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Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?
An NVDA issue has been created on GitHub with the exact steps necessary to replicate (at least for me). All of the basic NVDA troubleshooting steps were taken (system restart, restarting NVDA with add-ons disabled, running COM registration fixing tool) and none solved the issue.
For those interested, see: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/14040 It's out of my hands now. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly. ~ Vance Packard |
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Re: Math Reading Issues (pronunciation of x^3, y^3)
Joy Holly
NVDA (with MathPlayer) is reading MathML placed within the html on course pages inside the Canvas LMS. Canvas also has the Mathjax engine implemented. No idea about synth. It is most recent version of NVDA, with MathPlayer also installed. No customizations. "Out of the box." Testing is in Chrome. Expected " x cubed" reading mashes pronunciation of the variable with the pronunciation of "cubed", so reads "x cubed" as "skubrrt" for example. Recognizes it as math but is botching the reading. For comparison, "x squared" reads fine, as does "x to the ninth". Is this a known difficulty, to the point that most NVDA users who are reading math routinely might be familiar with the issue? (And have an idea how to tweak NVDA for better results?) Or is there a certain way the MathML presentation must be in order to make the variable and wxponent reading more explicit? (Kind of like the use of invisible times, in , MathML, which makes explicit that variables adjacent to numbers are multiplied?) I am trying to get a feeling for if there are action points we need to take on the developer side, or if NVDA, like JAWS, just has quirks that users learn how to work around and this pronunciation issue with math is a wll known one, or...? On Fri, Aug 19, 2022, 12:02 PM Rui Fontes <rui.fontes@...> wrote:
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Re: Access to Windows 10 Games: Suggestion for compatibility update or add-on for NVDA
Hi Iris, You're welcome. Yes, it wasn't until recently that Microsoft made improvements to Solitaire Collection in terms of accessibility. Back in say, 2015 (when Windows 10 made its debut), cards and card decks were not labeled properly; rather, they were labeled using a UIA (UI Automation) facility that I haven't even thought of, something Narrator did support then (that facility was called "localized control type", a text representing how screen readers should report what the control is to users but localized for various languages; in Solitaire Collection, cards and card decks were "shown" (presented to screen readers) as an unknown control with the actual card suit and rank seen as a distinct control type, localized to various languages, including, surprisingly enough, United States English; how this is even possible is way beyond the scope of this forum as it touches multilingual user interface). This changed a few weeks ago with the release of Solitaire Collection 4.13, with cards and card decks having actual labels in a form that NVDA can better understand (technical: UIA name property; the internals of this is again beyond the scope of this forum as we need to go into geeky side of UIA support from NVDA). Although I don't have extensive knowledge of parts of UI Automation and deeper parts of NVDA as several members here, you can count me in as a resident NVDA developer (or used to be as my immediate occupation is a university instructor and a graduate student). And no, my contributions are not as widely applied as say, Tyler Spivey's. Cheers, Joseph |
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Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?
Gene
I thought you were saying that the symbol not being announced was a
problem. I'm not sure what you were saying based on your response.
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Show quoted text
I generally do send messages above those I am responding to. I think there may have been confusion about two discussions being joined together. Gene On 8/19/2022 11:47 AM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 12:39 PM, Gene wrote: |
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Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?
Hi, After performing the steps outlined, I don't hear "tick" or "single quote" (I used the latter as an experiment), nor I hear "semi" or a "colon". Note that I'm using NVDA alpha build with punctuation level set to "some". In addition to validating what Tyler explained, here's another reason why you may or may not hear "semi" and "colon": visually (and internally), symbols list in punctuation/symbol pronunciation dialog is laid out as a table. In reality, it is a multi-column list view with NVDA recognizing it as a table. The "semi" and "colon" you may or may not hear comes from the way NVDA presents column (cell) information to users, found in document formatting settings panel/Row/column headers checkbox:
Another possibility is that NVDA is told to pronounce specific symbols regardless of punctuation level. This can be configured on an individual symbol asis from punctuation/symbol pronunciation dialog. Also, don't forget that speech synthesizers can do all sorts of things with symbols, and it is possible for non-English speakers to customize things further or just outright tell the speech synthesizer to pronounce symbols in their native language. Based on the steps noted, I think Tyler's explanation makes more sense (don't forget to check add-ons, too). As a bonus, here's how NVDA can give you "semi" and "colon" in punctuation/symbol pronunciation dialog: If NVDA recognizes a multi-column list view such as the one we're discussing, NVDA will ask available accessibility API's to return row contents, including cell contents and headers (the latter if told to report column/row headers). In some cases, NVDA will actually call Windows API functions to retrieve column content and header text from the list view directly. Without going into the bottommost layers, this operation involves memory access and creating a "fake" list view item that NVDA wil use to otain column headers and contents for each column. After this, NVDA will build a "textual" representation of a list view item (row), denoting columns with semicolons and, if told to do so, presetn column header and content separated by a colon. For example, if a list view has column headers of "name", "age", and "address", with an entry representing a person.. Visually there will be a table with two rows and three columns (first row: headers, second row: first entry). After NVDA asks the list view for its contents, NVDA will say, "name of the person; age: age; address: address field". Same thing is happening with punctuation/symbol pronunciation list view. Cheers, Joseph |
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Re: Math Reading Issues (pronunciation of x^3, y^3)
I'd add to Rui's queries, "Have you tried different synths to see if the behavior carries over?"
This is very often "a synth thing." -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly. ~ Vance Packard |
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Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?
On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 12:39 PM, Gene wrote:
The message I was commenting on wasn't yours.- But the message you bottom quoted was mine, and it was in response to the message it's now obvious you were responding to. But what you bottom quote should always be assumed to be the primary message you're replying to, and since mine was the "outermost wrapper" I made what is an entirely reasonable presumption. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly. ~ Vance Packard |
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Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?
Gene
I don't recall your message. The message I was commenting on wasn't
yours.
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Gene On 8/19/2022 11:34 AM, Joy Holly wrote:
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