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Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)
Russell James
Thank you for sharing this article and for allowing the discussion! I enjoyed reading the article and was not aware of some of the history. I was reading the article using Firefox and NVDA I ran into multiple accessibility issues while reading Probably because I was reading using explore by mouse... :-) I started using screen readers for software development work in the 1980's That was when GW Micro was selling/supporting Vocal-Eyes for DOS. I went on for years using DOS based interfaces to other systems to leverage Vocal-Eyes for my work. Vocal-Eyes and the GW Micro developers and technical support team were incredible! When Windows 3 was coming I learned that GW Micro would be providing Window-Eyes. While I was concerned about using agraphical user interface I was confident GW Micro would be there to support me and my work. Window-Eyes and GW Micro never let me down until they were acquired... I used Window-Eyes from Windows 3.1 up through Windows 10! I was spoiled by Window-Eyes and explore by mouse! I adopted this random access method for reading content on the screen. When I learned that Window-Eyes may not be available in the future I turned to NVDA. Eventually I pushed myself to make NVDA my primary screen reader. I would usually have Window-Eyes installed in case I ran into problems with NVDA. When I shared my desire for explore by mouse with the NVDA developers They simply told me I was using it wrong... As I learned from reading this article, I must still be using NVDA the wrong way... :-) I wish GW Micro and Window-Eyes were still a supported option! I have never used any other screen reader for Windows. Russ
On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 4:59 PM David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:
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Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2
Shawn
All I can say is, hopefully AI will be able to solve this soon so we don't have to worry about compliance. Getting them to make sites accessible in general is hard enough lol. Shawn Klein On 7/24/2022 5:48 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 06:42 PM, Shawn wrote:
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Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2
Shawn
With Spanish you'll just have to switch back and forth, or you could practice listening to English with a Spanish voice for parts of the page where both languages are heavily mixed. It's not so hard once you get used to it. Shawn Klein On 7/24/2022 4:53 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward
wrote:
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Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2
Shawn
A lot of synths will read English and Japanese both because they
don't share an alphabet. The one-core voices mentioned by someone
in this thread may do this without worrying about website owners
compliance. RHVoice doesn't support Japanese, but it's free and
open source, so if nothing else works for you you might want to
just check on it from time to time and see if they've added
Japanese. https://rhvoice.org/ Shawn Klein On 7/24/2022 4:30 PM, David Goldfield
wrote:
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Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2
On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 06:42 PM, Shawn wrote:
I don't think you're going to convince a website owner to comb through his site setting the right language attributes for each phrase in a given language on pages where more than 1 languages are present.- After the fact on a general purpose website, you're almost certainly correct. But any website that's supposed to be about language learning, if they care about accessibility (and that, sadly, is an "if"), should certainly be using language marking attributes correctly. I'd expect the same for professionally published materials where there is frequent switching between languages, at least for recently created materials. I once worked with a client who was using materials that were written in English with a lot of Swedish mixed in. Nothing could automatically read (or OCR) this correctly as there were no language markers and, in the case of OCR, it used either English, or Swedish, but not both for any given pass of the document. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly. ~ Vance Packard
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Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2
Shawn,
As often happens with "raw URLs that contain odd characters," the one you posted broke even though there are no gaps in the text itself. For those who want to read the topic referred to, see: A few questions about NVDA, eSpeak NG, and languages (non-programer) -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly. ~ Vance Packard
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Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2
Shawn
I hate to tell you this, but most websites don't even bother with
that stuff, and when they do it's usually to use the wrong
language attribute altogether. I turn language switching off and
never use it lest I end up on a website in English where the site
builder put in a German attribute. One would think there would be
an automated way to include them where needed, but I don't think
there is, and I don't think you're going to convince a website
owner to comb through his site setting the right language
attributes for each phrase in a given language on pages where more
than 1 languages are present. It's been useless from the beginning
IMHO. People are impressed by the idea, but it's just not
practical. Shawn Klein On 7/24/2022 4:53 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward
wrote:
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Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2
Shawn
I've done a bit of Googling about this, and it seems that it's actually whoever created the ESpeak voice's fault. As best as I can figure, they left out loads of kanji and made a real mess of it, so you're out of luck unless someone gets around to fixing it. A lot of ESpeak voices are broken in some way.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
This guy outlines a lot of them from a linguist's point of view here. https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/topic/83236633?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate/sticky,0,,20,0,540,83236633 Shawn Klein
On 7/24/2022 4:10 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
Since Eloquence is paid and I don't like it anyways, that's not an option for me. I dunno how, if at all, those packs would help, and I don't want to change synths. Anything without inflection settings (including most paid synths) sounds woeful to my discerning ears.
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Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2
On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 05:01 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
I don't have any non-English 1Core voices installed and truth be told, don't know how I might get more.- Settings, Time & Language, Language Pane. In the Language Pane, activate the Add A Language button. Enter the language you're looking for in the search box then review the search results (sometimes there are multiple dialects and sometimes multiple voices in a given dialect). If the intention is for a screen reader to use that language for reading, make sure that the text-to-speech attribute is one of those shown for the specific language item you are reviewing. There are a number of language items that do not support text-to-speech, though a great many do. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly. ~ Vance Packard
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Re: addOn Updater 2.8 and checking both International and Spanish-only NVDA?
Hi, Regarding the first question, ideally, yes but hard to do in practical terms. When opening websites, because sites are hosted around the world, it may take a while for some sites to load. For computers, the slowest component (usually memory, disk, and other hardware) contributes to overall performance. While it doesn't take long to gather add-on update metadata from both sites, there are times when Add-on Updater must locate the actual download ink for an add-on update, which is why it takes up to several seconds for the add-on to check for updates. This is for one site, now imagine doing this for multiple websites, and in this scenario, the site that is slowest to respond takes up significant portion of update check progress. Also, remember that different update sources may say different things about an add-on - some may give conflicting compatibility information for an add-on update, while another site may offer an older version of a compatible add-on. For these reasons, I decided to at least offer users a setting to configure update sources. As for the second question, I advise keeping Tienda (see a reply from Jose-Manuel). This is why I intentionally told Add-on Updater (via add-on source code) to not check for updates for Tienda as that add-on is essentially the add-on store for the Spanish community. In an earlier Twitter thread, I assured Jose-Manuel that Add-on Updater is a client, not a full store like Tienda is, knowing that many of you from Spain and other Spanish-speaking countries rely on Tienda to meet their add-on needs. Same can be said about the French community and other language communities with their own dedicated add-ons repositories (I once thought about talking to French community about letting Add-on Updater check for updates from their repository; my personal rule is that I must obtain consent from communities before I can ask Add-on Updater to check for updates from new repos in future add-on releases; I'm indeed open to this proposal and would love to talk to French community members about it in the fall as it takes about a day or two to add new add-on repositories). Cheers, Joseph
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Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2
Michael Munn
Is far I know NVDA do not have the capability of doing that in Windows. I am able to do that on my Mac when I read my text in Chinese. Best regards Michael H. Munn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Goldfield
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 6:02 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2
I should have explained that WCAG stands for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. They document standards to ensure that Web sites are accessible.
David Goldfield, Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field. Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Goldfield
Sharni-Lee, No problem. I would encourage you to contact support and ask them to use the language attribute. For reference, here’s a page which discusses the relevant WCAG criterion. https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/language-of-parts.html
David Goldfield, Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field. Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't see yours until after I wrote that.
I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched 80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a non-English word though, so at least I won't be botching pronunciations.
This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the symbols being properly identified, of course. On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield wrote:
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Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2
David Goldfield
I should have explained that WCAG stands for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. They document standards to ensure that Web sites are accessible.
David Goldfield, Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field. Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
David Goldfield
Sharni-Lee, No problem. I would encourage you to contact support and ask them to use the language attribute. For reference, here’s a page which discusses the relevant WCAG criterion. https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/language-of-parts.html
David Goldfield, Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field. Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Sharni-Lee Ward
I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't see yours until after I wrote that.
I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched 80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a non-English word though, so at least I won't be botching pronunciations.
This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the symbols being properly identified, of course.
On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield wrote:
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Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2
David Goldfield
Sharni-Lee, No problem. I would encourage you to contact support and ask them to use the language attribute. For reference, here’s a page which discusses the relevant WCAG criterion. https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/language-of-parts.html
David Goldfield, Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field. Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Sharni-Lee Ward
I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't see yours until after I wrote that.
I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched 80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a non-English word though, so at least I won't be botching pronunciations.
This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the symbols being properly identified, of course.
On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield wrote:
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Re: addOn Updater 2.8 and checking both International and Spanish-only NVDA?
José Manuel Delicado Alcolea
Maintain = keep installed.
El 24/07/2022 a las 23:50, Gerardo
Corripio escribió:
Joseph: Awesome work on making better and better the AddOn updater! But have several questions: 1.-can one set up the updater to check. Both, the Spanish NVDA and ther International NVDA site? I went into NVDA settings/AddOn Updater, and you can only check one of the other apparently, right? Thus if this isn’t possible as of now, 2.-so would you recommend I maintain the “Tienda” AddOn? Because that one checks updates from the Latinamerica NVDA site. Gera Enviado desde mi iPhone SE (2nd Generation) de Telcel --
José Manuel Delicado Alcolea
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Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2
Sharni-Lee Ward
I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't see yours until after I wrote that.
I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched 80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a non-English word though, so at least I won't be botching pronunciations.
This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the symbols
being properly identified, of course. On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield
wrote:
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addOn Updater 2.8 and checking both International and Spanish-only NVDA?
Gerardo Corripio <gera1027@...>
Joseph: Awesome work on making better and better the AddOn updater! But have several questions:
1.-can one set up the updater to check. Both, the Spanish NVDA and ther International NVDA site? I went into NVDA settings/AddOn Updater, and you can only check one of the other apparently, right? Thus if this isn’t possible as of now, 2.-so would you recommend I maintain the “Tienda” AddOn? Because that one checks updates from the Latinamerica NVDA site. Gera Enviado desde mi iPhone SE (2nd Generation) de Telcel
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Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)
Rosemarie Chavarria
I remember Window-eyes. It was the first screen reader I learned to use when I got my very first computer. I remember Raul Gallegos. He did the tutorial on thunderbird and it was quite good.
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Sky Mundell
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:30 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)
Hello David. Window-Eyes was developed by a sighted guy, named Doug Geoffray, and Dan W. They they did have Clarance Wally, who was a blind man, and who was their blind sales man, and they also had blind tech support specialists, as well, remember Raul A. Gallegos, Steve Klower, and Jeremy Curry?
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Re: tab in firefox
Russell James
Greetings, I experienced some accessibility regressions with Firefox after updating NVDA that were fortunately resolved when I restarted the computer. Russ On Sat, Jul 23, 2022 at 6:11 AM Brian's Mail list account via groups.io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
Is this on all pages? I've seen sluggishness in many browsers, but think its
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Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2
David Goldfield
Sharni-Lee wrote: > I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,
As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.
David Goldfield, Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field. Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Sharni-Lee Ward
I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...
On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:
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Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)
Sky Mundell
Hello David. Window-Eyes was developed by a sighted guy, named Doug Geoffray, and Dan W. They they did have Clarance Wally, who was a blind man, and who was their blind sales man, and they also had blind tech support specialists, as well, remember Raul A. Gallegos, Steve Klower, and Jeremy Curry?
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
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