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Re: training for blind people
Devin Prater
Oh yes, I also stress the huge amount of help available to the screen reader user. The first thing I teach JAWS users is Insert+F1, Insert+W, Insert+H, and how to get to the training materials in the JAWS help menu. There isn’t as much in depth documentation for NVDA users, but for people already familiar with the computer, the NVDA user guide is a good manual for the screen reader itself. As some one said years ago on this list, blind people need Windows training most of all, and Internet training too, along with screen reader training.
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Re: training for blind people
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Devin Prater wrote:
The elements list is a good thing when you know the site and just want to get to something quickly, but it’s awful to rely on for everything.And screen reader find is really your best friend when you even have a reasonable guess of a keyword you expect is somewhere in the content being displayed. Depending on the page, and I credit Gene for this tip, using the H quick navigation in browse mode can let you do a quick and dirty assessment of the major content on a great many webpages. One of my current students, who's been a JAWS user for years (decades, I think) now, had never heard of or touched the table navigation commands, and the sites she's using are heavily table laden and one would expect the data to be presented in that way. I also just managed to get the folks at VFO to realize that when you have documentation in two different formats (plain text and PDF), and you don't include that in the click through link, and both links have exactly the same description otherwise, that it's functionally inaccessible. I constantly tell my students that they need to download the keystrokes documentation for any screen reader they are using and plan to refer to it, frequently, because there's no way that any instructor can cover everything and you'll encounter situations on your own where you can find the "quick and easy way to deal with it" by looking there. -- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . . ~ Bertrand Russell
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Re: training for blind people
Devin Prater
I agree. I’m interning at my state government AT department, feels like I’ll be an intern forever. Anyways, the other instructors rely heavily on the elements list, and it’s caused problems with students in the past. When the Moodle site for the training materials changes, they’re out of luck because they don’t know what they’re looking for, and no one has taught them any differently. I’ve tried my best to rectify this a little, but I won’t be there forever, I don’t think, so I’ll have to say something to the other instructors. Quick note to any trainers, the fastest way definitely isn’t always the best. The elements list is a good thing when you know the site and just want to get to something quickly, but it’s awful to rely on for everything.
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Re: training for blind people
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 11:10 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
For the most part, Gene is right but he fails to realize that sites change all the time.Sorry, Rosemarie, but Gene has stated, again and again, that sites in fact do change all the time. His position has clearly included this statement virtually every time he lays it out. -- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . . ~ Bertrand Russell
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Re: training for blind people
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Gene wrote:
Training of a lot of blind people is just plain poor.I realize that blind people are the focus here, but when it comes to technology training and overreliance on rote learning, it's far from limited to that demographic. There are certain arenas where rote learning is almost worse than no formal training at all. Rote is a cage if you cannot and will not accept that while it may be a basis for "most frequently encountered now" you're very likely to have to keep moving along as "now" moves along to something else, whether a twist on that learning or transitioning to something entirely new. -- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . . ~ Bertrand Russell
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Re: training for blind people
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 11:43 AM, Gene wrote:
Sites are going to change. That is just the nature of the Internet.And the sooner that this is accepted wisdom the better. It seems that a lot of individuals believe that there will be a glorious day when the internet reaches a state of placid stasis. I have some oceanfront property in Omaha I'd like to sell them. There also seems to be a belief, and it's at least partially correct, that these changes are not challenging for those who can see. They are, without doubt, less challenging when the changes are both visually obvious and lead you to do what the designers want you to do in the design itself. There are plenty of times when that's not the case on one or both of those parameters. The amount of both change for change's sake and "What on earth were they thinking when they designed this?!!" change is huge, and confusing for anyone. -- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . . ~ Bertrand Russell
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Re: training for blind people
Gene
I didn't say anything about how sites change.
I said that if sites change, proper training would allow blind people to look at
the changed site and figure out how to use it in a lot of cases. I didn't
say all cases. If you look at what I have written, I have specifically
said that rote learning is going to cause problems. I said that in part
specifically because sites change and they are going to continue to change over
time.
Nor am I saying that every blind person will be
able to learn how to do this. But I'm saying that the majority, perhaps
most, can.
We see the same problem when something like a new
version of Windows comes out. Training of a lot of blind people is
just plain poor.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] training for blind people That's great you were able to learn the iPhone by reading the manual and spending many hours practicing with it. I can't afford to get an iphone because I'm on a fixed income. For the most part, Gene is right but he fails to realize that sites change all the time. I know this because I used to be able to shop for groceries on the Vons site by myself until they changed it. As long as my sister is willing to help me place orders on instacart, I'll graciously accept that help. I don't want to get an iphone just so I can shop on instacart. I just got so used to the keyboard. Rosemarie -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Davy Cuppens Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 7:47 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] training for blind people Hi Rosemarie I did my learning process in just the same way as you did, I did not attend a brail class but had my training in screenreaders for my profession as a receptionist and after that just like you, being patient and learning it myself. For 4,5 years as a totally inexperienced beginner, I bought an iphone 5s for 900 euro because so many people told me it's the most accessible device in the world. After 2 days I had almost thrown my device in the toilet but the third day I shut myself in my room for 5 hours, started to read the manual, listened to beginners voiceover podcasts and I dare to say now after 4 years that I am one of the most experienced voiceover users and I reached that level after 3 4 months. But I had to spend hours and hours and hours learning, testing etc ... Maybe this is difficult for some people and therefore I find gene is right. If you feel it does not work, go to training please! There is nothing wrong with that. Regards davy -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Rosemarie Chavarria Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 1:55 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site Hi, Sean, When I got my very first computer, it had a demo version of Window-eyes. It had windows 98 as its operating system. I took a computer class at the Braille Institute ad they taught Jaws. I later saved up some money and bought tutorials. I pretty much did everything on my own. As far as screen readers, I learned Jaws, window-eyes and system access. Now I just use nvda AND IT SUITS MY NEEDS VERY WELL. rOSEMARIE -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 2:55 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site To be honest on training, I learned to use ms office xp, windows 95 and jaws 6. None of that matters anymore. I don't use jaws, I don't use such an outdated crappy office and windows combo anymore. I have training for my keynote. All of it is totally crap, I did most of my stuff myself. I admit it was good at that time but its not current. Training is fine especially if you get it but you would have to train yearly to stay updated. On 9/28/2018 6:35 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote: > Gene, > The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their > limited income, or beyond their interest level. > Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more > than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer. > If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is > beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and > why should the Blind be any different? > We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did > not have to. > Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, > and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to > use a screenreader. > I find it disappointing, but that is the truth. > Glenn > > From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:21 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io > Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My > Banking Site > > Because of poor training. > > Gene > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...> > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My > Banking Site > > Hi Gene, > I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, > most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one > screenreader, much less other operating systems. > Glenn > > From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Gene > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My > Banking Site > > I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet. I haven't used > enough sites that are out of my usual use to say. I am making a general > statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do. > This is the result of poore training. I wasn't refering specifically to > or only to the Internet. I was discussing how so many blind people don't > realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the > Internet or elsewhere. If blind people knew what I said in my last > message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other > screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, > they might be able to do the thing better or well using another > screen-reader. > > Gene > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...> > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My > Banking Site > > Gene, > All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that > can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer. > I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have > spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no > work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure > technique that happens to work. > It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult > for screenreaders to keep up. > I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training. > I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind > people being able to access pages. > I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here. > I hope I’m wrong about the trend. > Glenn > > From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Gene > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My > Banking Site > > That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but > for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands > that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you > could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. > a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a > different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot > of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't > use screen-reader commands. > > Gene > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...> > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My > Banking Site > > Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of > us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted > practice, then the majority of users are left behind. > Glenn > > > From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My > Banking Site > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote: > Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them. > Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also > have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a > game of catch up. > > Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop. > Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and > particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way > revolves around increased security. > > It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under > one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system > with two or more screen readers available. That can help to tease out > where the issue might lie. > > -- > > Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 > > The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, > which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person > cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows > that this is untrue. . . > > ~ Bertrand Russell > > > > > > > > |
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Re: training for blind people
I have often told my clients that, ideally, their tutor would be a blind individual who is a sophisticated and daily user of JAWS. There is nothing better than that (if said person is capable of teaching, and I'm going to take that as a given for the sake of discussion).
I will never have the fluidity and, "Oh, yeah, I remember when I hit that issue, or something similar," kind of recall because I am not a daily user of a screen reader. But the fact remains that this is a catch-22 as well. There just aren't, and probably will never be, an adequate supply of blind screen reader instructors, and particularly if we're talking about venues that require degrees, certifications, etc. I've had people (on these very forums, at times) telling me that I should not be teaching blind people. Well, if that were the case, most of my students would have had, and will continue to have, no options for training at all. There are also some sighted screen reader instructors who are far more fluid with the technology than the majority of day-to-day users I know (even sophisticated ones). They're rare, I'm not one of them, but they do exist. I'm just willing and able to dig in to the documentation when circumstances require it, and I cannot tell you how many instructors and students I've known for whom that seems to be an idea akin to cutting their hands off. To me, that's standard operating procedure regardless of the task at hand when I encounter a situation with which I am not familiar. -- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . . ~ Bertrand Russell
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Re: training for blind people
Davy Cuppens
Rosemarie
maybe check some sites for refurbished iphones, I think after the release of last models you could get an iphone SE which is still good and fast enough to handle for less than 200 dollars. Regards Davy -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Rosemarie Chavarria Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 5:09 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] training for blind people Hi, Davy, That's great you were able to learn the iPhone by reading the manual and spending many hours practicing with it. I can't afford to get an iphone because I'm on a fixed income. For the most part, Gene is right but he fails to realize that sites change all the time. I know this because I used to be able to shop for groceries on the Vons site by myself until they changed it. As long as my sister is willing to help me place orders on instacart, I'll graciously accept that help. I don't want to get an iphone just so I can shop on instacart. I just got so used to the keyboard. Rosemarie -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Davy Cuppens Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 7:47 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] training for blind people Hi Rosemarie I did my learning process in just the same way as you did, I did not attend a brail class but had my training in screenreaders for my profession as a receptionist and after that just like you, being patient and learning it myself. For 4,5 years as a totally inexperienced beginner, I bought an iphone 5s for 900 euro because so many people told me it's the most accessible device in the world. After 2 days I had almost thrown my device in the toilet but the third day I shut myself in my room for 5 hours, started to read the manual, listened to beginners voiceover podcasts and I dare to say now after 4 years that I am one of the most experienced voiceover users and I reached that level after 3 4 months. But I had to spend hours and hours and hours learning, testing etc ... Maybe this is difficult for some people and therefore I find gene is right. If you feel it does not work, go to training please! There is nothing wrong with that. Regards davy -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Rosemarie Chavarria Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 1:55 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site Hi, Sean, When I got my very first computer, it had a demo version of Window-eyes. It had windows 98 as its operating system. I took a computer class at the Braille Institute ad they taught Jaws. I later saved up some money and bought tutorials. I pretty much did everything on my own. As far as screen readers, I learned Jaws, window-eyes and system access. Now I just use nvda AND IT SUITS MY NEEDS VERY WELL. rOSEMARIE -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 2:55 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site To be honest on training, I learned to use ms office xp, windows 95 and jaws 6. None of that matters anymore. I don't use jaws, I don't use such an outdated crappy office and windows combo anymore. I have training for my keynote. All of it is totally crap, I did most of my stuff myself. I admit it was good at that time but its not current. Training is fine especially if you get it but you would have to train yearly to stay updated. On 9/28/2018 6:35 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote: Gene, |
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Re: training for blind people
Gene
I wasn't talking about that site. the person
with the problem regarding that site had already reported that the problem had
been solved after contacting the bank in question. There are some sites
that are not accessible. But in a lot of cases, a site is either properly
accessible or can be used, and proper training would allow people to use it and
to continue using it when it changes. Sites are going to change.
That is just the nature of the Internet.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
From: Davy Cuppens
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 9:33 AM
Subject: [nvda] training for blind people HI Gene
I do totally agree with you. But I also agree a bit with the others, this
specific problem is a problem of inaccessibility of that bank site and lie I had
said before, the only thing the person can do is call on their bank and tell
them to make it accessible again.
But what you say in general is right.
For the enhanced use of computers, devices like smartphones, iphones,
screenreaders, many are called but only a few are chosen thanks to a lack of
training.
Sometimes I have the feeling that many blind people sit back and relax and
when they do have an issue or problem ask a forum. Moreover, if they would have
tried first to perform a google search, in 80% of the cases, they could have
found a solution for themselves. Then having found that solution gives more
satisfaction and a greater chance to remember such things afterwards.
This list is there to help eachother and it is obvious that advanced,
engaged, selfmade people will ask less questions than people that have more
difficulties or things are not gona be so straight forward. There is nothing
wrong with that but I find it a bit a pain here that so many people disagree
with you Gene. An idiom here in Belgium literally translated is: where there is
a will there will be a way. But some people are not willing enough will.
What also bothers me is that in most rehab institutions I know, instructors
do not have enough knowledge or qualification to train blind people according to
their needs. Therefore, I almost always do my own training in selfstudy, at
first, read the manual, test it out, read lists like this, podcasting and I
think if you feel after that it is stull not working, please people say YES WE
CAN and go to training, Gene is right in his statement.
Regards
Davy
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 1:57 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button
On My Banking Site You are generalizing from a few specifics, not
proper logic. I didn't say all sites are accessible. Neither did I
say that sites don't change. My point is that proper training would allow
blind people to figure out, in most cases, how to use sites when they do change
or figure out new ones. Of course, some sites are or become
inaccessible. I'm not talking about those.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button
On My Banking Site Hi, Gene,
With all due respect, sites do constantly change unless they're like the blind mice megamall site. I i'm sorry but I totally agree with Glen's message. All the training in the world won't help if sites keep changing. I was once able to shop for groceries online with the Vons site but when I talked to someone there, they said it's no longer accesible with screen readers. Why do you think I have to have my sighted sister help me place an order on Instacart? Simple--it's not really accessible. I've talked to friends of mine and they said you almost have to have an iphone to use their accessible app. I believe in looking at the layout of a page so you get familiar with how to use it. I tried shopping by myself on instacart but it didn't work--not even with work-arounds.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
The level of training would be available if proper training were done by those who do it in the first place. What used to be Freedom Scientific and now has a name that evokes a bird offers a lot of training. Nothing I am describing is taught in all that training, as far as I know.
I'm a voice in the wilderness. If blind people would join together and demand proper training, we might get somewhere.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ervin, Glenn Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Gene, The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level. Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer. If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the Blind be any different? We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have to. Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a screenreader. I find it disappointing, but that is the truth. Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Gene
Because of poor training.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ervin, Glenn Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Hi Gene, I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems. Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Gene
I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet. I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say. I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do. This is the result of poore training. I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet. I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere. If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ervin, Glenn Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Gene, All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer. I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work. It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up. I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training. I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages. I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here. I hope I’m wrong about the trend. Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Gene
That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ervin, Glenn Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind. Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Brian Vogel
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is,
but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some
extent, a game of catch up. Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . . ~ Bertrand Russell
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Re: training for blind people
Rosemarie Chavarria
Hi, Davy,
I forgot to mention that I also took a computer class at Cyprus College. Believe it or not, the instructor didn't even know how to go into forms mode in Jaws. I had to teach her how to do it. It was pretty embarrassing because she was supposed to be the instructor--not me. I agree that rehab instutions and schools don't really give blind people proper training like they should.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Davy Cuppens
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 7:34 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] training for blind people
HI Gene
I do totally agree with you. But I also agree a bit with the others, this specific problem is a problem of inaccessibility of that bank site and lie I had said before, the only thing the person can do is call on their bank and tell them to make it accessible again.
But what you say in general is right. For the enhanced use of computers, devices like smartphones, iphones, screenreaders, many are called but only a few are chosen thanks to a lack of training. Sometimes I have the feeling that many blind people sit back and relax and when they do have an issue or problem ask a forum. Moreover, if they would have tried first to perform a google search, in 80% of the cases, they could have found a solution for themselves. Then having found that solution gives more satisfaction and a greater chance to remember such things afterwards. This list is there to help eachother and it is obvious that advanced, engaged, selfmade people will ask less questions than people that have more difficulties or things are not gona be so straight forward. There is nothing wrong with that but I find it a bit a pain here that so many people disagree with you Gene. An idiom here in Belgium literally translated is: where there is a will there will be a way. But some people are not willing enough will. What also bothers me is that in most rehab institutions I know, instructors do not have enough knowledge or qualification to train blind people according to their needs. Therefore, I almost always do my own training in selfstudy, at first, read the manual, test it out, read lists like this, podcasting and I think if you feel after that it is stull not working, please people say YES WE CAN and go to training, Gene is right in his statement. Regards Davy
From: Gene Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 1:57 AM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
You are generalizing from a few specifics, not proper logic. I didn't say all sites are accessible. Neither did I say that sites don't change. My point is that proper training would allow blind people to figure out, in most cases, how to use sites when they do change or figure out new ones. Of course, some sites are or become inaccessible. I'm not talking about those.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Rosemarie Chavarria Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:37 PM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Hi, Gene,
With all due respect, sites do constantly change unless they're like the blind mice megamall site. I i'm sorry but I totally agree with Glen's message. All the training in the world won't help if sites keep changing. I was once able to shop for groceries online with the Vons site but when I talked to someone there, they said it's no longer accesible with screen readers. Why do you think I have to have my sighted sister help me place an order on Instacart? Simple--it's not really accessible. I've talked to friends of mine and they said you almost have to have an iphone to use their accessible app. I believe in looking at the layout of a page so you get familiar with how to use it. I tried shopping by myself on instacart but it didn't work--not even with work-arounds.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
The level of training would be available if proper training were done by those who do it in the first place. What used to be Freedom Scientific and now has a name that evokes a bird offers a lot of training. Nothing I am describing is taught in all that training, as far as I know.
I'm a voice in the wilderness. If blind people would join together and demand proper training, we might get somewhere.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ervin, Glenn Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Gene, The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level. Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer. If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the Blind be any different? We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have to. Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a screenreader. I find it disappointing, but that is the truth. Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Because of poor training.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ervin, Glenn Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Hi Gene, I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems. Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet. I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say. I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do. This is the result of poore training. I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet. I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere. If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ervin, Glenn Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Gene, All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer. I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work. It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up. I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training. I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages. I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here. I hope I’m wrong about the trend. Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ervin, Glenn Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind. Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up. Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . . ~ Bertrand Russell
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Re: Weather Plus 28.09.2018 update available
Karmelo <karm212@...>
Hi,
The error says “sorry the wo id is not set”.
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Re: Display/No Display of Attributes with Braille Display Focus 40
Hi,
toggle quoted message
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You need to go to document formatting settings panel (NvDA menu/Preferences/Settings/Document formatting) and turn off font attributes. But that'll turn off attribute announcement in speech. Don't worry, your wish has been granted (shhh, too early to say when). Cheers, Joseph -----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Hermann-Josef Kurzen Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 3:26 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Display/No Display of Attributes with Braille Display Focus 40 Hi NVDA-Users, I'm using a Focus 40 Braille display by FS. I would like to turn off displaying attributes. What's to do? Greetings - Hermann |
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Re: training for blind people
Rosemarie Chavarria
Hi, Davy,
toggle quoted message
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That's great you were able to learn the iPhone by reading the manual and spending many hours practicing with it. I can't afford to get an iphone because I'm on a fixed income. For the most part, Gene is right but he fails to realize that sites change all the time. I know this because I used to be able to shop for groceries on the Vons site by myself until they changed it. As long as my sister is willing to help me place orders on instacart, I'll graciously accept that help. I don't want to get an iphone just so I can shop on instacart. I just got so used to the keyboard. Rosemarie -----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Davy Cuppens Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 7:47 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] training for blind people Hi Rosemarie I did my learning process in just the same way as you did, I did not attend a brail class but had my training in screenreaders for my profession as a receptionist and after that just like you, being patient and learning it myself. For 4,5 years as a totally inexperienced beginner, I bought an iphone 5s for 900 euro because so many people told me it's the most accessible device in the world. After 2 days I had almost thrown my device in the toilet but the third day I shut myself in my room for 5 hours, started to read the manual, listened to beginners voiceover podcasts and I dare to say now after 4 years that I am one of the most experienced voiceover users and I reached that level after 3 4 months. But I had to spend hours and hours and hours learning, testing etc ... Maybe this is difficult for some people and therefore I find gene is right. If you feel it does not work, go to training please! There is nothing wrong with that. Regards davy -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Rosemarie Chavarria Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 1:55 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site Hi, Sean, When I got my very first computer, it had a demo version of Window-eyes. It had windows 98 as its operating system. I took a computer class at the Braille Institute ad they taught Jaws. I later saved up some money and bought tutorials. I pretty much did everything on my own. As far as screen readers, I learned Jaws, window-eyes and system access. Now I just use nvda AND IT SUITS MY NEEDS VERY WELL. rOSEMARIE -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 2:55 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site To be honest on training, I learned to use ms office xp, windows 95 and jaws 6. None of that matters anymore. I don't use jaws, I don't use such an outdated crappy office and windows combo anymore. I have training for my keynote. All of it is totally crap, I did most of my stuff myself. I admit it was good at that time but its not current. Training is fine especially if you get it but you would have to train yearly to stay updated. On 9/28/2018 6:35 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote: Gene, |
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training for blind people
Davy Cuppens
Hi Rosemarie
I did my learning process in just the same way as you did, I did not attend a brail class but had my training in screenreaders for my profession as a receptionist and after that just like you, being patient and learning it myself. For 4,5 years as a totally inexperienced beginner, I bought an iphone 5s for 900 euro because so many people told me it's the most accessible device in the world. After 2 days I had almost thrown my device in the toilet but the third day I shut myself in my room for 5 hours, started to read the manual, listened to beginners voiceover podcasts and I dare to say now after 4 years that I am one of the most experienced voiceover users and I reached that level after 3 4 months. But I had to spend hours and hours and hours learning, testing etc ... Maybe this is difficult for some people and therefore I find gene is right. If you feel it does not work, go to training please! There is nothing wrong with that. Regards davy -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Rosemarie Chavarria Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 1:55 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site Hi, Sean, When I got my very first computer, it had a demo version of Window-eyes. It had windows 98 as its operating system. I took a computer class at the Braille Institute ad they taught Jaws. I later saved up some money and bought tutorials. I pretty much did everything on my own. As far as screen readers, I learned Jaws, window-eyes and system access. Now I just use nvda AND IT SUITS MY NEEDS VERY WELL. rOSEMARIE -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 2:55 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site To be honest on training, I learned to use ms office xp, windows 95 and jaws 6. None of that matters anymore. I don't use jaws, I don't use such an outdated crappy office and windows combo anymore. I have training for my keynote. All of it is totally crap, I did most of my stuff myself. I admit it was good at that time but its not current. Training is fine especially if you get it but you would have to train yearly to stay updated. On 9/28/2018 6:35 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote: Gene, |
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Re: closing the NVDA About window
Clare Page <clare.page@...>
Hi! You don’t need to use alt+F4 or Escape, or even the Tab key, to close the About dialogue in the Help menu of NVDA: the window closes with an OK button. All you need to do is to press the spacebar at any point during the reading of the About message: the OK button will be activated, and the window with the About message in it will close. I hope this helps! Bye for now! From Clare
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Giles Turnbull
Sent: vendredi 28 septembre 2018 16:20 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] closing the NVDA About window
Hi All, |
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training for blind people
Davy Cuppens
HI Gene
I do totally agree with you. But I also agree a bit with the others, this
specific problem is a problem of inaccessibility of that bank site and lie I had
said before, the only thing the person can do is call on their bank and tell
them to make it accessible again.
But what you say in general is right.
For the enhanced use of computers, devices like smartphones, iphones,
screenreaders, many are called but only a few are chosen thanks to a lack of
training.
Sometimes I have the feeling that many blind people sit back and relax and
when they do have an issue or problem ask a forum. Moreover, if they would have
tried first to perform a google search, in 80% of the cases, they could have
found a solution for themselves. Then having found that solution gives more
satisfaction and a greater chance to remember such things afterwards.
This list is there to help eachother and it is obvious that advanced,
engaged, selfmade people will ask less questions than people that have more
difficulties or things are not gona be so straight forward. There is nothing
wrong with that but I find it a bit a pain here that so many people disagree
with you Gene. An idiom here in Belgium literally translated is: where there is
a will there will be a way. But some people are not willing enough will.
What also bothers me is that in most rehab institutions I know, instructors
do not have enough knowledge or qualification to train blind people according to
their needs. Therefore, I almost always do my own training in selfstudy, at
first, read the manual, test it out, read lists like this, podcasting and I
think if you feel after that it is stull not working, please people say YES WE
CAN and go to training, Gene is right in his statement.
Regards
Davy
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 1:57 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button
On My Banking Site You are generalizing from a few specifics, not
proper logic. I didn't say all sites are accessible. Neither did I
say that sites don't change. My point is that proper training would allow
blind people to figure out, in most cases, how to use sites when they do change
or figure out new ones. Of course, some sites are or become
inaccessible. I'm not talking about those.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button
On My Banking Site Hi, Gene,
With all due respect, sites do constantly change unless they're like the blind mice megamall site. I i'm sorry but I totally agree with Glen's message. All the training in the world won't help if sites keep changing. I was once able to shop for groceries online with the Vons site but when I talked to someone there, they said it's no longer accesible with screen readers. Why do you think I have to have my sighted sister help me place an order on Instacart? Simple--it's not really accessible. I've talked to friends of mine and they said you almost have to have an iphone to use their accessible app. I believe in looking at the layout of a page so you get familiar with how to use it. I tried shopping by myself on instacart but it didn't work--not even with work-arounds.
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
The level of training would be available if proper training were done by those who do it in the first place. What used to be Freedom Scientific and now has a name that evokes a bird offers a lot of training. Nothing I am describing is taught in all that training, as far as I know.
I'm a voice in the wilderness. If blind people would join together and demand proper training, we might get somewhere.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ervin, Glenn Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Gene, The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level. Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer. If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the Blind be any different? We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have to. Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a screenreader. I find it disappointing, but that is the truth. Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Gene
Because of poor training.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ervin, Glenn Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Hi Gene, I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems. Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Gene
I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet. I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say. I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do. This is the result of poore training. I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet. I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere. If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ervin, Glenn Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Gene, All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer. I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work. It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up. I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training. I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages. I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here. I hope I’m wrong about the trend. Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Gene
That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ervin, Glenn Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind. Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Brian Vogel
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is,
but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some
extent, a game of catch up. Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . . ~ Bertrand Russell
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Re: closing the NVDA About window
apologies ... I'm talking nonsense! The About window is closing with a press of the Escape key, it is the Speech Viewer window that won't close. In the end I closed NVDA and re-started to remove the speech viewer window.
Similar problem, just correcting the details! :) Giles |
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closing the NVDA About window
Hi All,
I was just looking in the About window to see which version of NVDA I have installed, and it is 2018.3.2 ... now I know that I am unable to close that About dialogue! Presing Escape, Alt+F4 produce no results, and tabbing around finds no close button! I think I remember something similar happning with configuration windows back in NVDA 2017, so wonder if it might be related ... is anybody else experienceing this? Thanks, Giles |
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Re: Automatically start NVDA after I log on to Windows, unchecked after updates
Brice Mijares
This also happened to me after last update earlier this week.
toggle quoted message
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On 9/28/2018 3:40 AM, Iv�n Novegil via Groups.Io wrote:
Hello all. |
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