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Re: screen shade
Brian's Mail list account
Oh ye trusting fellow... :-)
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I think many people just like they talk loudly to phones in the street telling everyone of their private goings on often miss the obvious and yes they do use their laptops for sensitive stuff in public. Still, as I said in a different thread today, one can only go so far for security, the weak link is always us users. Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
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From: <ely.r@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 1:03 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] screen shade Good idea! I have to wonder what people are writing on their computers in what I assume is a public area that they do not want others to see. If someone has full vision, one would assume that they have their screen turned on so they can both read and write. If so, then it is likely that they will not be writing highly sensitive things that others might see as they walk by. Sorry if this seems insensitive, but. . . Rick From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Josh Kennedy Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 7:53 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] screen shade Instead of screen shade. Get a black piece of paper and put it over your screen. And voila, nobody can see your screen at all. Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
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season greetings
anthony borg
Wishing all list members a very merry Christmas and all the best for 2018. Best regards Anthony
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screen curtain
Josh Kennedy
Why do you need a screen curtain when the rest of the sighted world does not need or use a screen curtain? If you want a screen curtain just put a black piece of paper over your screen.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
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seasons greetings
anthony borg
Hi all list members, Wishing you all a very merry Christmas and all the best for 2018. Best regards Anthony
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Re: screen shade
ely.r@...
Good idea! I have to wonder what people are writing on their computers in what I assume is a public area that they do not want others to see. If someone has full vision, one would assume that they have their screen turned on so they can both read and write. If so, then it is likely that they will not be writing highly sensitive things that others might see as they walk by. Sorry if this seems insensitive, but. . . Rick
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Josh Kennedy
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 7:53 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] screen shade
Instead of screen shade. Get a black piece of paper and put it over your screen. And voila, nobody can see your screen at all.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
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screen shade
Josh Kennedy
Instead of screen shade. Get a black piece of paper and put it over your screen. And voila, nobody can see your screen at all.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
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choosing a new computer
Josh Kennedy
Hi There is a much easier way to get rid of all new computer junkware and drivers at once.
Josh
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Re: Screen Shade/curtain?
Chris Mullins
Hi
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I agree with Joseph. Development time should be dedicated to improving the screen reading capabilities of NVDA. If someone wants to develop an add-on, that's fine but it would be of no interest to me. In the meantime, people using separate monitors can always switch them off and laptop users could use an external keyboard and close the laptop lid. Cheers Chris
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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee Sent: 17 December 2017 22:07 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain? Hi, Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time. As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I believe that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on screen reading, with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from experience that just following the lead of another screen reader just because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it, including sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others. Cheers, Joseph -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain? it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say other screen readers have it is very heavy handed. On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote: Hi,
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Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before
Brian's Mail list account
I'm talking about small shops where you don't perhaps get the discounts but they can be very helpful if you get a problem.
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Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
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From: "Antony Stone" <antony.stone@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before I didn't even realise it was possible to get a computer shop to change the
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Delay
Brian's Mail list account
Note there is a delay in messages on this list again, so apologies if my or other replies appear in odd places.
The delay seems to be at Virgin again. Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
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Re: NVDA 2017.4 cannot update progress bars on expanded file explorer copy or move dialogs
Brian's Mail list account
First I've heard of that it might?
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Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
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From: "Bhavya shah" <bhavya.shah125@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:08 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4 cannot update progress bars on expanded file explorer copy or move dialogs Hi Kendell,
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Re: NVDA 2017.4 cannot update progress bars on expanded file explorer copy or move dialogs
Brian's Mail list account
I don't think there is one on groups.io yet. I still see posts to the sourceforge one
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Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
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From: <coffeekingms@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 2:42 AM Subject: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4 cannot update progress bars on expanded file explorer copy or move dialogs Hey all Sorry for not posting for a while, I’ve just completed a Permanent move to windows 10 from Linux. I now have a new pc, an ultrabook and both windows and NVDA perform much better. I’ve decided to get much more involved in helping NVDA, and windows itself, get better. To explain the issue I just reported, if you have a file copy or move operation in progress, windows explorer will open an information dialog. If the dialog is in it’s normal state, the progress bar beeps and speech updates work just fine. But there’s a more updates button or checkbox, and if that is checked, the dialog expands to give more information. When that happens, the progress bar updates no longer work. You can of course use screen review to look at the dialog and get the updates that way. I also have report background progress bar updates checked in object presentation settings, gotten to by pressing NVDA+ctrl+o. This is on NVDA 2017.4 with joseph lee’s windows 10 app essentials add on installed. I’m not sure how to provide more info or proof of the problem, should I activate debug mode, or change the log level and post a log? I’ve been a part of NVDA development before, but it was back when windows 7 first came out and procedures might have changed. If there’s a new developers guide somewhere, point me to it and I’ll read it so you guys don’t have to repeat information. Also, I’ve been trying to post this to the development group on groups.io. I’ve been rejected by both the sourceforge list, I think I might have unsubscribed from that one, and the groups.io one, nbvda-dev@groups.io<mailto:nbvda-dev@groups.io>. Did I unsubscribe from it and don’t remember or was I removed from it for something? I don’t want to clutter up the user support list with development emails but I couldn’t think of anywhere else to post this one, at least initially. If I can get on the development list, I’ll send all further dev stuff there. Thanks Kendell Clark sent from my ultrabook
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Re: competition
Brian's Mail list account
Not entirely the thing. I think that the screenreaders try to add things that are genuinely useful, no matter what their cost is. That has little to do with a feature.
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In my humble oppinion this function should be a part of windows itself, inedeed why windows cannot have a proper turn my screen off command I will never know. If you are using your machine to listen to audio do you really want the screen on all the time? Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
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From: "Don H" <lmddh50@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 10:16 PM Subject: [nvda] competition When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA should also have the same function the main question is whether or not NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to pay for a screen reader.
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Re: new avira interface
Brian's Mail list account
I think you need to contact them and point out the problems. They may well have a system where you can use the old verssion with updates.
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Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
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From: "enes sarıbaş" <enes.saribas@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 12:26 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] new avira interface this is very problamatic, as I cannot select, or perform any action on items in the web interface. Also, I cannot access the settings via nvda.
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Re: Addon to solve Captcha?
Brian's Mail list account
Think about what you are asking for.
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If it was that simple what would be the point of using it to detect that you are a human. Most of these do have an audio version however. I still maintain these devices do not work very well nowadays as computers are getting better at them and the spammers will always find a way to spam. No I'm thinking they should be using some language or idiom based question in the language the site is displayed in or simply use a double emeial system to make sure the email is legitimate. If every spammer had to individually reply to lots of emails with slightly different links it would cramp their style. Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
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From: "George Zaynoun" <humorlessgeza@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:22 AM Subject: [nvda] Addon to solve Captcha? Does such an addon to NVDA exists and if yes where to find and what browsers does it support? -- Georges Zeinoun Timmerv. 6A ITR LGH1102, 54163 SKÖVDE SWEDEN Tel: +46 (500) 48 29 29 +46 (500) 43 55 11
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Re: Addon to solve Captcha?
https://github.com/kvark128/captchaSolver
but it's in russian
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Re: Screen Shade/curtain?
Brian's Mail list account
The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well. Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
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In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link. You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen. Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop paranoia which is sadly rife in places of work these days. It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us. I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well, in that many many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces, its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones that go dark when you plug in a set of phones. However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and grab your cash! Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
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From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:29 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain? Hi, In the current digital age, privacy is something we think can be guaranteed at all costs. However, I and some of us argue that this isn't. I do understand that shouldersurfing is a problem, but it is just one form of breaching privacy, with others being remote access, keystroke logging and what not. For example, with help from Remote Support add-on, a user may listen in on remote conversations (as in what NVDA is saying) or keystrokes. Similarly, NVDA itself can inject and intercept messages from other apps if given appropriate privileges. Given the evidence before us, I believe the topicality of including other possibilities is justified (topicality means if a topic is in scope or not for a debate). As for screen shade being a screen reader feature and proposition that it bridges the gap between sighted and the blind: the overall purpose of a screen reader is to present screen information in an efficient manner. Given that definition, because screen shade is designed to "improve privacy by presenting what appears to be a blank screen so sighted folks cannot look over their shoulders", and screen reading and privacy are two separate fields, I argue that this argument does not hold. Although some may say that both fields are related - in that screen readers can announce private information presented, when looking at mechanics of these concepts and products, they are still two different things. Although a screen shade could guarantee privacy, due to the nature of screen readers and their internals, a screen shade won't truly bridge the gap between blind and sighted people as far as privacy is concerned. Borrowing features from other screen readers: I do understand that screen readers did borrow features from one another. For example, JAWS's touch cursor is NVDA's object navigation, and on Windows 10, NVDA includes OCR feature. These features fulfill the purpose of screen readers: access to information on display. But there are costs: misuse of gold standards and loss of distinctiveness. If we follow a gold standard blindly, especially if a standard turns out to be faulty, developers will find themselves fixing standards later with more costs involved than implementing this standard in the past. IN regards to distinctiveness, one dimension of competition is distinctive appeal; with screen readers boasting similar features, people will need to dive deeper to find out differences between products. In case of screen shade and borrowing features from others, because of the purpose of screen reading versus privacy tool, it won't make sense to say that we can just borrow features from others. Possible use as a development module: one thing the affirmative did not bring up was screen shade's possible utility as a development assistance module. For the scope of this debate, topicality does not hold, and also because such a tool already exists in the form of an add-on. Overall, our contentions are: 1. Purpose of a screen reader: just read whatever is presented versus act as a privacy guarantee tool. 2. Private information display: display versus other forms of output. 3. User experience: read what's out there versus go one step further and shield users from shouldersurfers. Thanks. Cheers, Joseph -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bhavya shah Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:02 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain? Hi all, As a proponent of a screen shade like functionality in NVDA, let me offer some points of proposition as well as some rebuttle in this ongoing debate: In this increasingly digitized, computerized and electronic era, privacy, for absolutely any and all users, has become a key focus area for software products. Extremely personal and confidential information is stored and accessed on laptop and desktop computers at school, workplace or other public settings. Would it be permissible for blind and visually impaired computer users be left vulnerable to sighted shouldersurfers – those with sight who peep literally over a blind individual’s shoulders to surreptitiously follow his/her activities? Side proposition is here to demonstrate to you how the proposed feature is very much relevant for a screen reader and can prove vital in significantly improving the privacy of a screen reader user. Before introducing our substantives though, I would like to offer two points of rebuttle on the basis of what we have already heard from side opposition. Legitimacy of the privacy argument- Shouldersurfing is a potential risk manifold amplified in case of a blind person since he/she has no way of detecting this. As a result, it is imperative that the computer screen itself do something to resolve this huge loophole in a VI user’s computer usage experience. Thus, since a screen reader’s function and philosophy is to bridge the gap between the blind consumer and the computer screen, and along the way, do whatever it can to arm the consumer with the tools required to achieve equivalent efficiency, privacy and usability as its sighted counterpart, side proposition maintains that screen dimming is of substantial use in the context of visually impaired computer users, and we view inclusion of other methods of privacy invasions such as remote access Trojans, speech synthesis (which, with experience, is often cranked up to a rate unintelligible to the average human), etc., in the present debate and discussion, as digressions on the part of side opposition for all these techniques are dissimilar to shouldersurfing, the problem screen dimming intends to fix, in that they are not exclusive to the blind and thus do not warrant the intervention of a screen reader. Inspiration for this feature request – Screen readers, and software in general, often borrow and lend ideas and concepts for features and functionalities. While basing a proposal to one screen reader primarily on the premise that other screen readers showcase it is not constructive, using it as a supporting argument, particularly by citing its reception among its user base, is, we believe, valid and justified. As iss the case with screen dimming, a multitude of other usage scenarios, justifications and reasoning in favour of this proposal have already been provided, and inspiration from other screen readers plays the role of only a supporting argument. On second thought, I suppose it might be more fruitful to allow side opposition to respond to the above provided points of rebuttle before I proceed towards side proposition’s substantives, which, more or less, are already out there for review and simply require a cohesive summarization. Thanks. P.S. Let us have a constructive point-by-point debate on this topic spiritedly like we have had so far. :) On 12/18/17, enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@...> wrote: however joseph, This fact doesn't change the fact that 99% of sighted -- Best Regards Bhavya Shah Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/ Contacting Me E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@... Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91 7506221750
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Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before
Antony Stone
I didn't even realise it was possible to get a computer shop to change the
Bios in a new machine for you. Are you talking about using Coreboot, or something else? Antony. On Monday 18 December 2017 at 11:46:28, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote: I have to say, I've failed too get one before the festivities, but yes,-- You can tell that the day just isn't going right when you find yourself using the telephone before the toilet. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me.
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Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before
Brian's Mail list account
I have to say, I've failed too get one before the festivities, but yes, Dell do build good Laptops. It is a shame they keep on doing daft things on a laptop which at least is not for gaming or just entertainment. I can see that unless I can get the shop to change the bios etc, and test the screenreader the first few weeks is going to be hair pulling time.
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I know a friend sat down with an IT man from his local school for two hours, most of that time was taking off crap, putting Microsoft drivers back to default and reconfiguring sensible defaults. Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Chao" <kevinchao89@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before This thread has been very relevant for me recently, as I was looking for a good business-grade Windows laptop. I tried the LeNovo ThinkPad via Amazon, but sent it back, and picked-up Dell XPS 9360 from Microsoft Store yesterday. The 2 issues that I experienced are with the Realtek audio and media keys. Fortunately, it was possible to sort the former by turning off the sound effects/enhancements and have latter solved via BIOS set to use standard function keys. I was unpleasantly surprised that these were issues on a vanilla Windows machine from Microsoft, but glad that it’s possible to set these normally. This is my second XPS I had, first was in 2009, now again in 2017—very well built, great keyboard, light, fast. On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io < the.big.white.shepherd@...> wrote: I use one and have no problems, I can't think of any tips it just
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Re: Screen Shade/curtain?
Angela Delicata
Agree: privacy is somehting whic does not really exist now as every good experienced computer user could potentially see everything that's on your machine.
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And do not follow Jaws because it is getting worse as it contains features which, as you say, do not always work well: this is because from my humble opinion, it is not taken care of as in the past, but the price is still high smile. Best. Angela from Italy
Il 17/12/2017 23:06, Joseph Lee ha scritto:
Hi,
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