Date   

Re: Windows10 - NVDA - MS Teams - Meetings

Russell James
 

Brian

That Bluetooth headset approach you mentioned sounds very attractive do you still need to have the USB sound card for that solution?

In that configuration the nvda audio is not being routed to the meeting?

Thank you

Russ


Re: recent problems using NVDA to read google docs/sheets?

Sarah k Alawami
 

Is braille mode in google docs itself? Or is this a setting in NVDA?

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Felix G.
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2021 12:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] recent problems using NVDA to read google docs/sheets?

Hello,
when Braille mode is turned off, Google Docs will micromanage what the screen reader announces, leaving Braille out of the equation. With Braille mode turned on, text is presented in an accessible rich edit control, and the screen reader is in charge so it will be able to Braille. In combination with NVDA I strongly recommend turning on Braille mode as the experience will be more what you are used to even when no Braille display is present.
Best,
Felix

Am Do., 18. Nov. 2021 um 08:39 Uhr schrieb Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...>:

Hello,

Well, turning on Braille mode does seem to fix it. I never would have thought of that since I'm not using braille and it wasn't necessary in the past.

This is just speculation, but do you think something changed recently in the way google docs does accessibility to necessitate braille mode with some screen readers? And are the subset of screen reader users who use google docs just more likely to be using braille anyway and not notice the change?

Thank you for pointing me to the solution!

Warmly,
Sally

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 11:36 PM Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:

Hello,

I am not sure what the issue you're experiencing is, but I highly recommend turning on Braille mode, at this point, as it will generally provide a better accessibility experience, even if you are not using a Braille display.

Thanks.

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 2:26 PM Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...> wrote:

All docs and sheets regardless of owner or privileges and yes, accessibility is turned on. I am only using the screen reader, not braille.

Thanks,
Sally


On Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 17:12 Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:

I can't say that I have. Does this happen with all sheets, or just a specific sheet? I'm assuming that you have accessibility mode on? Are you using Braille mode, or just screen reader mode?

Thanks.

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 12:13 AM Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...> wrote:

Hi there,

I'm running Google Chrome Version 96.0.4664.45 (Official Build) (64-bit) and NVDA 2021.2.

Pressing escape doesn't help, sorry I didn't mention I had already tried that.

NVDA announces "application, group" which I don't remember it doing before. However, the focus, according to my sighted partner, is in the spreadsheet cells like usual.

Has anyone else been seeing something like this?

Thanks!
Sally

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 5:01 PM Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:

Hello Sally,

Which browser are you using where this difficulty occurs? Which version of NVDA?

Next time you open a doc, after the doc has loaded, and you can't seem to access it, try pressing esc and let us know what happens.

Thanks.

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 6:30 AM Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...> wrote:

Hello,

I can no longer read google docs or sheets on my work laptop and noticed that I need to press Tab a few extra times on my personal laptop to focus and read a doc or sheet. However, two weeks ago, I was using google docs and sheets with no problems on either machine. After the page fully loaded and I made sure browse mode was off, my focus was already in the doc or sheet content and I was able to read.

Has anyone experienced new problems reading the contents of google docs or sheets in the last 10 days?

Does anyone know about recent G Suite updates that might be causing this?

If not, are there known NVDA settings problems that might be causing this?

I'm not sure how to start troubleshooting this so would welcome all suggestions!

Thanks,
Sally


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen
reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader
for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader
for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: NVDA speechless on the enter key in Wordpad

Deenadayalan Moodley
 

Hi,

 

Check out the NVDA global commands extension... it allows you to turn individual keys on and off.

 

Thanks.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mani Iyer via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, 17 November 2021 19:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA speechless on the enter key in Wordpad

 

Hello Gene,

I wouldn’t mind having the “Speak commands’ turned on when in Wordpad but elsewhere it gets annoying! I wish there was a command to quickly turn ‘Speak commands’ on and off.

Well if not, I will have to get used to the silence. :)

 

Mani

 



On Nov 17, 2021, at 12:42 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

 

NVDA doesn’t speak any command keys by default.  You already know what happens when you turn speak command keys on. 

 

You may find that you quickly get used to not hearing enter.  You may expect it since you evidently have heard it in the past but giving not hearing it a chance for perhaps a few days or a week may get you used to not hearing it and it may not matter any longer.

 

I believe the option should be available.  People should be able to choose which command keys they hear, but since I know of no way they can, if you get used to not hearing it quickly, the problem may not matter shortly.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 10:52 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA speechless on the enter key in Wordpad

 

Good to hear from you again after a long time. :)
Thank you Sarah. But you have no idea as to why NVDA does not speak the enter key on Wordpad?

Mani


> On Nov 17, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:
>
> I recommend Jarte. It is no longer being made, but it is one of my favorite programs to use for an RTF editor and a docx  viewer.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mani Iyer via groups.io
> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 7:56 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: [nvda] NVDA speechless on the enter key in Wordpad
>
> Hello all,
> Having worked on the Mac with Voiceover for many years, I am a newbie to Windows and NVDA which I am learning through the user guide and enjoying it.
> A RTF editor is a must for what I do and I chose Wordpad (I will welcome ideas for any better NVDA-accessible and free editors).  I don’t know what setting would make NVDA speak the enter key whenever I move to a new line. Setting the ‘Speak commands’ option on does speak it but speaks all other commands I press in the process.
>
> Any help will be appreciated. Thanks,.
>
> Warmly,
> Mani
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




 


Re: Windows10 - NVDA - MS Teams - Meetings

 

Russell,

When you do look at the archive, search on the phrase "USB sound card" and you will find a lot of information on exactly what you mentioned.  This seems to be "the usual method" for those that need to separate the screen reader audio output stream from other audio.

The earpiece is necessary only because the microphone that picks up your voice would also pick up anything else that you could hear, including that NVDA output, were it routed through a speaker.  I am presuming you're not using a headset microphone, but even then, a lot of those are omnidirectional and will pick up ambient sound.

I've also known people to use a Bluetooth headset that's one that they typically use with a smartphone.  The NVDA audio gets routed to it (and you may need to use Silenzio or the NVDA Bluetooth add-on) and, if the condensor microphone on the computer is suboptimal, use the headset microphone as the computer's input device so you can be heard more clearly.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: Windows10 - NVDA - MS Teams - Meetings

Russell James
 

Hi Brian

Thank you for your response I have missed those previous discussions and will try to find them in the archive

In this specific situation the computer is a laptop so I wonder if there may be a USB sound card of sorts and a way to get NVA to direct it to that peripheral and associated earpiece.

Russ


On Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 11:04 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
The only way I know of to achieve what you're looking for is to have a separate sound card through which NVDA's audio is routed, and this has been discussed a multitude of times on this group for a variety of reasons.

You would then need to use an earpiece that transmits the NVDA audio to one of your ears.   All other audio/video would be going through "the usual channels" on the computer in question.

This setup allows you to isolate NVDA audio such that only you can hear it.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Gene
 

I’m not sure what you are referring to, but bhy ordering, do you mean that, as I understand it, to a sighted person, links run down the left of the page, there is text in the middle, and more links on the right?  The screen-reader view is as follows, again as it was explained to me:
the links a sighted person sees on the left side of the page are at the top in screen-reader order.  Then the text follows and below the text, the links that, to a sighted person run down the right side of the page are shown at the bottom of the screen-reader representation.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2021 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
 
On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 04:54 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
If the highlight cursor worked well in NVDA, it wouldn’t have been a problem.
-
What version of NVDA are you using?   I haven't had issues with Focus Highlight being inaccurate as far as following focus on screen in a long time.  I have a couple of machines where, for some reason, focus highlight refuses to load if they've been up and running for a while, but I've reported that, and I can get it to work if I restart the computer and try it again.

It's funny, but even though I know and conceptually understand the virtual cursor, because sight is one of my primary ways of "following along" for anything that typically has a visual component it remains a nightmare, and mostly because I have never been able to understand how "the ordering choices" that get made in loading the buffer are made.  They certainly do not follow anything like "the visual flow" of a page in many cases, which makes it worse.

And even though someone who's blind has absolutely no use for focus highlight, the fact that screen readers are quite frequently going to be in use in visually mixed environments, like schools and workplaces and, sometimes, even homes, having that option on by default, rather than off, makes a lot more sense to me.  The individual I was helping yesterday is someone I'd helped remotely before, and I clearly turned on focus highlight when we last worked together, and it was still on.  It made it so much easier for me to "hit the ground running" as far as assisting him rather than having to go back into settings and turning it on again before I started.  It also seems to have very minimal impact on the screen reader responsiveness.

I know that a screen reader has a blind person as its target user.  At the same time, individuals who are blind do not exist in isolation from the sighted world, and anything that makes it easier for each side of screen reading technology to have a better joint understanding of what's going on is a plus, in my opinion.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: Windows10 - NVDA - MS Teams - Meetings

 

The only way I know of to achieve what you're looking for is to have a separate sound card through which NVDA's audio is routed, and this has been discussed a multitude of times on this group for a variety of reasons.

You would then need to use an earpiece that transmits the NVDA audio to one of your ears.   All other audio/video would be going through "the usual channels" on the computer in question.

This setup allows you to isolate NVDA audio such that only you can hear it.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 04:54 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
If the highlight cursor worked well in NVDA, it wouldn’t have been a problem.
-
What version of NVDA are you using?   I haven't had issues with Focus Highlight being inaccurate as far as following focus on screen in a long time.  I have a couple of machines where, for some reason, focus highlight refuses to load if they've been up and running for a while, but I've reported that, and I can get it to work if I restart the computer and try it again.

It's funny, but even though I know and conceptually understand the virtual cursor, because sight is one of my primary ways of "following along" for anything that typically has a visual component it remains a nightmare, and mostly because I have never been able to understand how "the ordering choices" that get made in loading the buffer are made.  They certainly do not follow anything like "the visual flow" of a page in many cases, which makes it worse.

And even though someone who's blind has absolutely no use for focus highlight, the fact that screen readers are quite frequently going to be in use in visually mixed environments, like schools and workplaces and, sometimes, even homes, having that option on by default, rather than off, makes a lot more sense to me.  The individual I was helping yesterday is someone I'd helped remotely before, and I clearly turned on focus highlight when we last worked together, and it was still on.  It made it so much easier for me to "hit the ground running" as far as assisting him rather than having to go back into settings and turning it on again before I started.  It also seems to have very minimal impact on the screen reader responsiveness.

I know that a screen reader has a blind person as its target user.  At the same time, individuals who are blind do not exist in isolation from the sighted world, and anything that makes it easier for each side of screen reading technology to have a better joint understanding of what's going on is a plus, in my opinion.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Windows10 - NVDA - MS Teams - Meetings

Russell James
 

Greetings,

I'm looking for best practices for using NVDA with MS Teams meetings.

In the past I have often attended MS Teams meetings from my Android device.
Without the video which makes it similar to a phone conference call.
On that platform the screen reader is not heard by the meeting.

The few times I have joined a ZOOM meeting from Windows10 while using NVDA the meeting could hear my screen reader till I turned it off...
I'd like to avoid situations like that...

Now I'm interested in best ways to attend/present during MS Teams meetings on Windows10 while using NVDA.
I'm specifically interested in knowing if there are ways to use NVDA without the meeting hearing the screen reader audio.
There are probably helpful settings and audio accessories to support this.

Fortunately, there is a lot of accessibility documentation for MS Teams on multiple platforms.
Unfortunately, this makes it very time consuming to find these specific details...

Thanks in advance for any recommendations.

Russ




Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

 

We found this issue just yesterday.

 

I am training a blind lady with a sighted supervisor. We turned on highlighting in NVDA.

 

I myself am totally blind, so something I didn’t realise is that highlighting doesn’t always follow the virtual or browse cursor in NVDA, whether it’s a bug or not, I don’t know. She was on an intranet website, and NVDA was reading differently to that where the highlight cursor was pointing.

 

Virtual cursors are a nightmare for sighted users or trainers, I can certainly feel your pain there.

 

If the highlight cursor worked well in NVDA, it wouldn’t have been a problem.

 

All the best


Stee

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 18 November 2021 04:48
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 04:43 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m curious why it was hard to understand.  Is it that being used to there being no cursor on web pages, the idea somehow didn’t make sense? 

-
Gene,

This is a good question, and since the virtual cursor concept exists for JAWS and NVDA, I am going to quote a two sentences from the Microsoft Support page entitled, Use Microsoft Teams with the JAWS virtual cursor: "As the JAWS virtual cursor moves around on a web page or similar environment, no visible indicator is shown as to its location. This way you can move the virtual cursor outside the range of the content currently being displayed on your screen."

For someone who can see, as soon as the virtual cursor moves into territory not actually displayed on the screen I end up "in the weeds" very quickly.  This is all the more true because how screen readers decide to load a webpage into the buffer which the virtual cursor traverses often is at a big disconnect from the visual layout on the screen that structures things for the sighted.

When I first started working with JAWS the function (and I can't recall what they call it at the moment) that equates to focus highlight in NVDA did not exist.  I often would have no idea what my student was going to "land on" next because how the buffer was loaded was just so much differently than I, or anyone I know who's sighted, would have perused the copy on that webpage with our eyes.

Focus highlight, which keeps the display in sync with where the virtual cursor is located, and actually puts a visible indicator around the word, control, etc. on which the virtual cursor has focus was a godsend to me.  It was also one way I came to understand why I became so lost, because I could see how the pages were being traversed in real time, and how different the order of traversal often is compared to how I would ever have read those pages using my vision.  And I imagine that much of that ordering is driven by HTML structure, which is very different than the visual structure that HTML produces on the screen, or at least that's my theory.

I often wonder why something like focus highlight didn't make it into screen readers in general much earlier.  It's not that the target demographic for a screen reader actually need it, but one of the purposes of a screen reader (among many) is for workplace use.  I don't know of a single sighted person who doesn't get hopelessly lost when a screen reader is merrily reading all and is currently reading material that is multiple full screen scrolls down from what is currently displaying on the screen that a sighted coworker is looking at.  We "follow" with our eyes, primarily, and when the screen does not scroll along with what's being read we just don't know where in the document, webpage, whatever we are.

The best analogy I can give is if you're a Braille reader, it would be as if the screen reader kept going and going and going while your scanning finger was stopped at the bottom of the current page you're reading and was not able to continue scanning the text to determine where what's being spoken is actually located.  Unless you have the entire text memorized already, you have no idea what page the screen reader may be on.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Steve Nutt
 

Yes, that is the default behaviour in JAWS Jean, and I prefer it.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 November 2021 17:25
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

My objection is the default behavior of NVDA.  It should move you out of an edit field by default when you arrow.  When using default settings, you can tab  to move out of the edit field which moves you to the next control, thus potentially causing you to miss text and building a bias into the environment against arrowing through an unfamiliar form.  Environments encourage certain behaviors, a well known fact among those wishing to encourage certain behaviors.

 

There is another way to arrow away from an edit field, use NVDA space to go into browse mode.  But if you do that, arrowing to an edit field doesn’t automatically place you in forms mode anymore.  Thus, you can take an action intended to do a single thing and it changes how the default settings work throughout the forum.  thus, you have inconsistent behavior for the identical action.

 

The default behavior should be that which System Access always followed and which I believe is the default in JAWS now, to move you out of edit fieldds when up or down arrowing.

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 10:09 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

Steve,

 

NVDA has options for recreating semi-auto or auto mode as well.

 

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 12:55 AM Steve Nutt <steve@...> wrote:

This is where JAWS has the edge.  It has semi auto mode, which means it will behave like NVDA does now, or auto mode, which means that a press of the down arrow from an edit box will switch back on browse mode.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 16 November 2021 17:24
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

This discussion illustrates the major flaw in the way automatic switching of modes is implemented.  Modes aren’t automatically switched when you down arrow from forms mode to browse mode.  If you are in forms mode and you up or down arrow, you will remain in forms mode.  Thus, you will not move from where you are.  If you tab you will move and the mode will automatically switch.  This is a built-in bias that encourages tabbing through forms, which is often the behavior you miss content by doing.  I’m not saying that is the intent of the design, but that is an important effect. 

 

To be consistent and not encourage tabbing over arrowing, automatic switching should occur when you up and down arrow as well as when you tab.  Making this change would eliminate my major objection to automatic switching.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 11:06 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

Let's see.
I'm in Firefox with NVDA, I just checked my window and it is maximized
(I went into the system menu and maximize is unavailable so that must
mean the window is already maximized). So I scroll down the page.
There's the email address box. Sometimes, when I try to arrow down
past the email address box, it tries to autofill it. So perhaps it's
trying to autofill your password box (it doesn't do this for me). So
maybe your step would be more like this; maybe get out of the password
box input mode, whether NVDA+Space or pressing Escape, either one, so
now you're on the password box without being in it, and then arrow
down, and it reads the word "remember me". Or, if it's easier, arrow
up from the "log in" button.

On 11/16/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 11:53 AM, Tyler Zahnke wrote:
>
>>
>> Firefox does not read whether the checkbox is checked or not, it's
>> just the words "remember me" are being read if I arrow down from the
>> password box,
>
> -
> Truly, I am not trying to be difficult, but I do not understand exactly what
> you mean or are doing.  If I'm sitting in the password box, in Firefox,
> using down arrow does not get me out of that box.
>
> There is something specific about the exact sequence of steps you are using
> that I am not hitting upon in my experimentation.  I can't replicate the
> success you've had even with just the announcement of "Remember Me" unless I
> use "the sighted way" with the mouse.  I'd like to be able to replicate your
> experience for my own education, and how you do this may be relevant to
> other situations.
> --
>
> Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043
>
> *The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.*
>
> ~ John F. Kennedy
>
>
>
>
>
>


 

 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Steve Nutt
 

That’s long, three to five seconds.

 

It just took about a second and a bit with Chrome to load https://www.comproom.co.uk.

 

But it probably depends on your up/download speed.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: 17 November 2021 16:23
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

Yeah, for me firefox runs fast on this machine, takes about 3-5 seconds to load and that’s it. Maybe it’s page dependent, even screen reader dependent.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 12:44 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

I find it considerably slower than Chrome on many websites. But I have no scientific evidence to back it up.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 16 November 2021 16:13
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

I’d be interested in whether others find it slow.  This may just be my experience, but Firefox seems to me to be much faster than it used to be.  I’ve started using it a lot more and I’m considering using it as my main browser.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 3:32 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

It’s just a shame that Firefox is so slow compared with Chrome, certainly on all my machines it is.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Sackrider
Sent: 16 November 2021 00:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

        I have an example of whear fire fox will and nvda will see somthng but chrome brousers don't.  The audio of the lions magazine in both edge and chrome there is no down it all button but in fire fox there is a down it all button.  I am not surprised about other things that fire fox sees that chrome brousers don't this is why I say that for the blind chrome based brousers are kind of usless junk and this is the reason that I use internet explorer for as long as I did as it was not a chrome based brouser.  I have windows 11 and there is no more internet explorer so I had to find a nonchrome based brouser and thats why i am using fire fox as my default brouser.

Brian Sackrider

On 11/15/2021 5:12 PM, Gene wrote:

I am increasingly finding cases where Firefox either sees things or does things that Chrome doesn’t when used with NVDA.  I don’t use JAWS and my demo is far too old to evaluate whether the same things occur.  But I think the question of whether Chrome-based browsers are working properly with sites in terms of accessibility should be systematically addressed.

 

Here are two examples:

First is this article from The New York Times;.

If you are at the top of the page and press s to move by separator, you will immediately move to cards giving background information on the story.

In Firefox, you see, at the end of the card, a button for previous card, unavailable since you are on the first card, and a button for next card.

Activating this button works.  It moves you to the next card.

To easily get to this card in a proper position to read it, press page up, then s for separator.

The previous and next card buttons both work correctly for this card and, I assume, for all other cards.

 

I tested with Chrome and Brave and neither of these Chrome-based browsers saw either button. I could read the first card below the separator but no buttons are displayed.


I’ve recently been looking up material on occasion using the Encyclopedia Britannica online.  When reading with Firefox, the page being read automatically shows new material as you move down it.  Firefox shows this new material when it appears.  Chrome-based browsers don’t. 

This article is an example:

 

Search from the top of the page for the word nervous.  If you down arrow in Firefox, the text continues after some items, perhaps three or four.  Chrome-based browsers don’t load new material at least not accessibly to screen-readers.

 

Chrome-based browsers don’t see comments on Youtube pages where videos are streamed.  Firefox does.  Because the page changes as you move down it, you have to move down the page to see the comments.  You can’t just search for the word comment to get to the section.

 

I’ll add that all these comments are for my specific machine but I expect they will be generally experienced.  Verification, however, is necessary.

 

Are these problems with Chrome, with NVDA, or both?  I suspect that these problems are not improper implementation of accessibility.  Those questions, however, would require technically knowledgeable investigation to be resolved.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Gene

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 11:00 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

Since Firefox sees the checkboxes, I don’t know that its valid to assume what the problem is and that it is improper design.  Also, there may be cases where you will hear explanatory text that accompanies a structure read if you tab into the structure rather than move to it in some other way.  I haven’t compared Chrome-based and not Chrome-based browsers in these cases but again, is this improper design or just the complexity of design?

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Jackie

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 10:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

Yeah well, I'm not trying to be obscene here, but it's because the web
designers didn't use checkboxes that expose themselves, or, perhaps to
put it just a bit more succinctly, expose their state. & it is a royal
pita, & it's not unique to NVDA, though having said thus, sometimes
Jaws actually allows labeling of these graphics, whereas NVDA doesn't.
& it's not an issue specific to Chrome, either. It's actually called a
"clickable element" as opposed to a checkbox. Sighted folks generally
cant distinguish these from standard checkboxes, but they sure create
problems for us.

On 11/15/21, Tyler Zahnke mailto:programmer651@... wrote:
> Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in Google
> Chrome? NVDA reads a lot of them, but some sites have a "remember me"
> checkbox on their login screen that just says "clickable"; when you
> press Enter where it says clickable, the box checks, but NVDA doesn't
> tell you this. I have seen websites that contain both accessible and
> inaccessible checkboxes, why is this? And several times (I have a
> memory of seeing this on the login screen of Palai), it doesn't read
> some of the checkboxes, such as "remember me", at all. It actually got
> to the point where I thought they had removed the checkbox from their
> site because it completely didn't read it, but users of other devices
> claimed they still saw the checkbox, but several of us Chrome and NVDA
> users noticed the missing checkbox. And as soon as I tried the same
> site with Firefox and NVDA, I saw the checkbox, but it said "remember
> me clickable" and therefore, though you could check and uncheck it,
> NVDA wouldn't tell you, while on Chrome, NVDA skips over the box. This
> was a problem with a website that I actually had to help out as far as
> accessibility; their site had some regular checkboxes on the form and
> screen readers could read it just fine, but then some checkboxes said
> "clickable" or didn't say anything at all, yet the Enter key worked on
> them but the screen reader didn't say. I've probably seen variations
> on this issue for a few years, some checkbox not displaying in Chrome.
> Often I would try it again with Firefox, and at least in the
> checkbox-related cases, it usually worked. And in the case of the
> website I helped make accessible, I even looked at the HTML for the
> checkboxes, and even the inaccessible checkboxes were still coded like
> checkboxes though they may have had some extra styling on them. So
> what's the deal with checkboxes?
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Steve Nutt
 

Yes, I’ve just found them.

 

Thanks for that.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: 17 November 2021 16:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

Steve,

 

NVDA has options for recreating semi-auto or auto mode as well.

 

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 12:55 AM Steve Nutt <steve@...> wrote:

This is where JAWS has the edge.  It has semi auto mode, which means it will behave like NVDA does now, or auto mode, which means that a press of the down arrow from an edit box will switch back on browse mode.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 16 November 2021 17:24
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

This discussion illustrates the major flaw in the way automatic switching of modes is implemented.  Modes aren’t automatically switched when you down arrow from forms mode to browse mode.  If you are in forms mode and you up or down arrow, you will remain in forms mode.  Thus, you will not move from where you are.  If you tab you will move and the mode will automatically switch.  This is a built-in bias that encourages tabbing through forms, which is often the behavior you miss content by doing.  I’m not saying that is the intent of the design, but that is an important effect. 

 

To be consistent and not encourage tabbing over arrowing, automatic switching should occur when you up and down arrow as well as when you tab.  Making this change would eliminate my major objection to automatic switching.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 11:06 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

Let's see.
I'm in Firefox with NVDA, I just checked my window and it is maximized
(I went into the system menu and maximize is unavailable so that must
mean the window is already maximized). So I scroll down the page.
There's the email address box. Sometimes, when I try to arrow down
past the email address box, it tries to autofill it. So perhaps it's
trying to autofill your password box (it doesn't do this for me). So
maybe your step would be more like this; maybe get out of the password
box input mode, whether NVDA+Space or pressing Escape, either one, so
now you're on the password box without being in it, and then arrow
down, and it reads the word "remember me". Or, if it's easier, arrow
up from the "log in" button.

On 11/16/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 11:53 AM, Tyler Zahnke wrote:
>
>>
>> Firefox does not read whether the checkbox is checked or not, it's
>> just the words "remember me" are being read if I arrow down from the
>> password box,
>
> -
> Truly, I am not trying to be difficult, but I do not understand exactly what
> you mean or are doing.  If I'm sitting in the password box, in Firefox,
> using down arrow does not get me out of that box.
>
> There is something specific about the exact sequence of steps you are using
> that I am not hitting upon in my experimentation.  I can't replicate the
> success you've had even with just the announcement of "Remember Me" unless I
> use "the sighted way" with the mouse.  I'd like to be able to replicate your
> experience for my own education, and how you do this may be relevant to
> other situations.
> --
>
> Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043
>
> *The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.*
>
> ~ John F. Kennedy
>
>
>
>
>
>



 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: recent problems using NVDA to read google docs/sheets?

Sally Kiebdaj
 

Hallo, 

Thank you for the explanation. It would not have occurred to me that checking the braille box would change how the text is displayed. 

Warmly,
Sally 

On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 9:23 AM Felix G. <constantlyvariable@...> wrote:
Hello,
when Braille mode is turned off, Google Docs will micromanage what the
screen reader announces, leaving Braille out of the equation. With
Braille mode turned on, text is presented in an accessible rich edit
control, and the screen reader is in charge so it will be able to
Braille. In combination with NVDA I strongly recommend turning on
Braille mode as the experience will be more what you are used to even
when no Braille display is present.
Best,
Felix

Am Do., 18. Nov. 2021 um 08:39 Uhr schrieb Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...>:
>
> Hello,
>
> Well, turning on Braille mode does seem to fix it. I never would have thought of that since I'm not using braille and it wasn't necessary in the past.
>
> This is just speculation, but do you think something changed recently in the way google docs does accessibility to necessitate braille mode with some screen readers? And are the subset of screen reader users who use google docs just more likely to be using braille anyway and not notice the change?
>
> Thank you for pointing me to the solution!
>
> Warmly,
> Sally
>
> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 11:36 PM Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am not sure what the issue you're experiencing is, but I highly recommend turning on Braille mode, at this point, as it will generally provide a better accessibility experience, even if you are not using a Braille display.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 2:26 PM Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> All docs and sheets regardless of owner or privileges and yes, accessibility is turned on. I am only using the screen reader, not braille.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Sally
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 17:12 Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I can't say that I have. Does this happen with all sheets, or just a specific sheet? I'm assuming that you have accessibility mode on? Are you using Braille mode, or just screen reader mode?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 12:13 AM Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi there,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm running Google Chrome Version 96.0.4664.45 (Official Build) (64-bit) and NVDA 2021.2.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pressing escape doesn't help, sorry I didn't mention I had already tried that.
>>>>>
>>>>> NVDA announces "application, group" which I don't remember it doing before. However, the focus, according to my sighted partner, is in the spreadsheet cells like usual.
>>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone else been seeing something like this?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>> Sally
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 5:01 PM Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Sally,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which browser are you using where this difficulty occurs? Which version of NVDA?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Next time you open a doc, after the doc has loaded, and you can't seem to access it, try pressing esc and let us know what happens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 6:30 AM Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can no longer read google docs or sheets on my work laptop and noticed that I need to press Tab a few extra times on my personal laptop to focus and read a doc or sheet. However, two weeks ago, I was using google docs and sheets with no problems on either machine. After the page fully loaded and I made sure browse mode was off, my focus was already in the doc or sheet content and I was able to read.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Has anyone experienced new problems reading the contents of google docs or sheets in the last 10 days?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does anyone know about recent G Suite updates that might be causing this?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If not, are there known NVDA settings problems that might be causing this?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not sure how to start troubleshooting this so would welcome all suggestions!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Sally
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nimer Jaber
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141.
>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you, and have a great day!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Nimer Jaber
>>>>
>>>> Registered Linux User 529141.
>>>> http://counter.li.org/
>>>>
>>>> To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org
>>>>
>>>> You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you, and have a great day!
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best,
>>
>> Nimer Jaber
>>
>> Registered Linux User 529141.
>> http://counter.li.org/
>>
>> To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org
>>
>> You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.
>>
>> Thank you, and have a great day!
>
>






Re: recent problems using NVDA to read google docs/sheets?

Felix G.
 

Hello,
when Braille mode is turned off, Google Docs will micromanage what the
screen reader announces, leaving Braille out of the equation. With
Braille mode turned on, text is presented in an accessible rich edit
control, and the screen reader is in charge so it will be able to
Braille. In combination with NVDA I strongly recommend turning on
Braille mode as the experience will be more what you are used to even
when no Braille display is present.
Best,
Felix

Am Do., 18. Nov. 2021 um 08:39 Uhr schrieb Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...>:


Hello,

Well, turning on Braille mode does seem to fix it. I never would have thought of that since I'm not using braille and it wasn't necessary in the past.

This is just speculation, but do you think something changed recently in the way google docs does accessibility to necessitate braille mode with some screen readers? And are the subset of screen reader users who use google docs just more likely to be using braille anyway and not notice the change?

Thank you for pointing me to the solution!

Warmly,
Sally

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 11:36 PM Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:

Hello,

I am not sure what the issue you're experiencing is, but I highly recommend turning on Braille mode, at this point, as it will generally provide a better accessibility experience, even if you are not using a Braille display.

Thanks.

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 2:26 PM Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...> wrote:

All docs and sheets regardless of owner or privileges and yes, accessibility is turned on. I am only using the screen reader, not braille.

Thanks,
Sally


On Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 17:12 Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:

I can't say that I have. Does this happen with all sheets, or just a specific sheet? I'm assuming that you have accessibility mode on? Are you using Braille mode, or just screen reader mode?

Thanks.

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 12:13 AM Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...> wrote:

Hi there,

I'm running Google Chrome Version 96.0.4664.45 (Official Build) (64-bit) and NVDA 2021.2.

Pressing escape doesn't help, sorry I didn't mention I had already tried that.

NVDA announces "application, group" which I don't remember it doing before. However, the focus, according to my sighted partner, is in the spreadsheet cells like usual.

Has anyone else been seeing something like this?

Thanks!
Sally

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 5:01 PM Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:

Hello Sally,

Which browser are you using where this difficulty occurs? Which version of NVDA?

Next time you open a doc, after the doc has loaded, and you can't seem to access it, try pressing esc and let us know what happens.

Thanks.

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 6:30 AM Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...> wrote:

Hello,

I can no longer read google docs or sheets on my work laptop and noticed that I need to press Tab a few extra times on my personal laptop to focus and read a doc or sheet. However, two weeks ago, I was using google docs and sheets with no problems on either machine. After the page fully loaded and I made sure browse mode was off, my focus was already in the doc or sheet content and I was able to read.

Has anyone experienced new problems reading the contents of google docs or sheets in the last 10 days?

Does anyone know about recent G Suite updates that might be causing this?

If not, are there known NVDA settings problems that might be causing this?

I'm not sure how to start troubleshooting this so would welcome all suggestions!

Thanks,
Sally


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Gene
 

Not shared computers.  I’m saying that one person, as I understand it, isn’t allowed to have more than one phone on the same account.  I know that other people can share accounts if they have different phones, each with its own number.  But that isn’t what is wanted here.  The person wants another phone to move the sim card to and use if the main phone isn’t working.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2021 2:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
 

Jean don't get me started on shared computers.

Especially if its a bunch of kids and family.

A bunch of adults is hard enough.

Firstly no one will always follow the security right its just impossible to have that.

Then there is time used.

I have many examples on that.

Then there is software, screen savers, etc.

Basically what looks good aint always the case.

Now thats not saying it can't be done and a few years back I was maintaining a system that was shared by multiple people.

I have a friend  that still does but yeah its hard unless you are secured and make sure nothing can get in without being admin.

Of course eventually people find out your access and then things go in and out.

On the techhnition end, that shared system always got past to me to fix a problem.

It would happen at least 4 times a year.

4 times a year, I was mostly reformatting, because it was completely hosed and each user had a different reason.

So yeah sharing just doesn't work.

My plan is to eventually have a central file server that handles comman things, but even then each user will have their own system.

It technically should work but sharing a machine is if not impossible quite a challenge.

I know people do it but even some people I work with don't completely understand what they did wrong.

Again I could give a lot of examples.

They want to do something and they can't afford the expensive thing then look about not knowing what they are doing.

Even my dad does this.

The task is simple enough, but they wander and then find themself in another planet surrounded by darlecs and cybermen and ask me to fix it all.

And I ask and they don't know how it happened.

I try to do the same task or what and of course I get it right.

Of course it can happen that its something because they didn't know of program x they end up in another universe and I've done that before so if I know what it is I can usually find it.

I had someone totally virus up his system looking for a file converter.

He didn't ask me first.

So a 5 minute job took me several days reformatting and installing because they didn't think to call me  about it.

Many more examples where that comes in.and thats 1 on 1.

So I don't know how 4 or more can share.

 

 

 

On 18/11/2021 6:53 pm, Gene wrote:
Those are different reasons than I had thought.  It reminds me of things I’d heard about quite some time ago but I hadn’t thought about much for a long time, such as the problems that are caused in a business when sighted people share a computer with a blind person and the screen-reader is left running.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
 
On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 04:43 PM, Gene wrote:
I’m curious why it was hard to understand.  Is it that being used to there being no cursor on web pages, the idea somehow didn’t make sense?
-
Gene,

This is a good question, and since the virtual cursor concept exists for JAWS and NVDA, I am going to quote a two sentences from the Microsoft Support page entitled, Use Microsoft Teams with the JAWS virtual cursor: "As the JAWS virtual cursor moves around on a web page or similar environment, no visible indicator is shown as to its location. This way you can move the virtual cursor outside the range of the content currently being displayed on your screen."

For someone who can see, as soon as the virtual cursor moves into territory not actually displayed on the screen I end up "in the weeds" very quickly.  This is all the more true because how screen readers decide to load a webpage into the buffer which the virtual cursor traverses often is at a big disconnect from the visual layout on the screen that structures things for the sighted.

When I first started working with JAWS the function (and I can't recall what they call it at the moment) that equates to focus highlight in NVDA did not exist.  I often would have no idea what my student was going to "land on" next because how the buffer was loaded was just so much differently than I, or anyone I know who's sighted, would have perused the copy on that webpage with our eyes.

Focus highlight, which keeps the display in sync with where the virtual cursor is located, and actually puts a visible indicator around the word, control, etc. on which the virtual cursor has focus was a godsend to me.  It was also one way I came to understand why I became so lost, because I could see how the pages were being traversed in real time, and how different the order of traversal often is compared to how I would ever have read those pages using my vision.  And I imagine that much of that ordering is driven by HTML structure, which is very different than the visual structure that HTML produces on the screen, or at least that's my theory.

I often wonder why something like focus highlight didn't make it into screen readers in general much earlier.  It's not that the target demographic for a screen reader actually need it, but one of the purposes of a screen reader (among many) is for workplace use.  I don't know of a single sighted person who doesn't get hopelessly lost when a screen reader is merrily reading all and is currently reading material that is multiple full screen scrolls down from what is currently displaying on the screen that a sighted coworker is looking at.  We "follow" with our eyes, primarily, and when the screen does not scroll along with what's being read we just don't know where in the document, webpage, whatever we are.

The best analogy I can give is if you're a Braille reader, it would be as if the screen reader kept going and going and going while your scanning finger was stopped at the bottom of the current page you're reading and was not able to continue scanning the text to determine where what's being spoken is actually located.  Unless you have the entire text memorized already, you have no idea what page the screen reader may be on.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

Jean don't get me started on shared computers.

Especially if its a bunch of kids and family.

A bunch of adults is hard enough.

Firstly no one will always follow the security right its just impossible to have that.

Then there is time used.

I have many examples on that.

Then there is software, screen savers, etc.

Basically what looks good aint always the case.

Now thats not saying it can't be done and a few years back I was maintaining a system that was shared by multiple people.

I have a friend  that still does but yeah its hard unless you are secured and make sure nothing can get in without being admin.

Of course eventually people find out your access and then things go in and out.

On the techhnition end, that shared system always got past to me to fix a problem.

It would happen at least 4 times a year.

4 times a year, I was mostly reformatting, because it was completely hosed and each user had a different reason.

So yeah sharing just doesn't work.

My plan is to eventually have a central file server that handles comman things, but even then each user will have their own system.

It technically should work but sharing a machine is if not impossible quite a challenge.

I know people do it but even some people I work with don't completely understand what they did wrong.

Again I could give a lot of examples.

They want to do something and they can't afford the expensive thing then look about not knowing what they are doing.

Even my dad does this.

The task is simple enough, but they wander and then find themself in another planet surrounded by darlecs and cybermen and ask me to fix it all.

And I ask and they don't know how it happened.

I try to do the same task or what and of course I get it right.

Of course it can happen that its something because they didn't know of program x they end up in another universe and I've done that before so if I know what it is I can usually find it.

I had someone totally virus up his system looking for a file converter.

He didn't ask me first.

So a 5 minute job took me several days reformatting and installing because they didn't think to call me  about it.

Many more examples where that comes in.and thats 1 on 1.

So I don't know how 4 or more can share.




On 18/11/2021 6:53 pm, Gene wrote:
Those are different reasons than I had thought.  It reminds me of things I’d heard about quite some time ago but I hadn’t thought about much for a long time, such as the problems that are caused in a business when sighted people share a computer with a blind person and the screen-reader is left running.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
 
On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 04:43 PM, Gene wrote:
I’m curious why it was hard to understand.  Is it that being used to there being no cursor on web pages, the idea somehow didn’t make sense?
-
Gene,

This is a good question, and since the virtual cursor concept exists for JAWS and NVDA, I am going to quote a two sentences from the Microsoft Support page entitled, Use Microsoft Teams with the JAWS virtual cursor: "As the JAWS virtual cursor moves around on a web page or similar environment, no visible indicator is shown as to its location. This way you can move the virtual cursor outside the range of the content currently being displayed on your screen."

For someone who can see, as soon as the virtual cursor moves into territory not actually displayed on the screen I end up "in the weeds" very quickly.  This is all the more true because how screen readers decide to load a webpage into the buffer which the virtual cursor traverses often is at a big disconnect from the visual layout on the screen that structures things for the sighted.

When I first started working with JAWS the function (and I can't recall what they call it at the moment) that equates to focus highlight in NVDA did not exist.  I often would have no idea what my student was going to "land on" next because how the buffer was loaded was just so much differently than I, or anyone I know who's sighted, would have perused the copy on that webpage with our eyes.

Focus highlight, which keeps the display in sync with where the virtual cursor is located, and actually puts a visible indicator around the word, control, etc. on which the virtual cursor has focus was a godsend to me.  It was also one way I came to understand why I became so lost, because I could see how the pages were being traversed in real time, and how different the order of traversal often is compared to how I would ever have read those pages using my vision.  And I imagine that much of that ordering is driven by HTML structure, which is very different than the visual structure that HTML produces on the screen, or at least that's my theory.

I often wonder why something like focus highlight didn't make it into screen readers in general much earlier.  It's not that the target demographic for a screen reader actually need it, but one of the purposes of a screen reader (among many) is for workplace use.  I don't know of a single sighted person who doesn't get hopelessly lost when a screen reader is merrily reading all and is currently reading material that is multiple full screen scrolls down from what is currently displaying on the screen that a sighted coworker is looking at.  We "follow" with our eyes, primarily, and when the screen does not scroll along with what's being read we just don't know where in the document, webpage, whatever we are.

The best analogy I can give is if you're a Braille reader, it would be as if the screen reader kept going and going and going while your scanning finger was stopped at the bottom of the current page you're reading and was not able to continue scanning the text to determine where what's being spoken is actually located.  Unless you have the entire text memorized already, you have no idea what page the screen reader may be on.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: recent problems using NVDA to read google docs/sheets?

Sally Kiebdaj
 

Hello,

Well, turning on Braille mode does seem to fix it. I never would have thought of that since I'm not using braille and it wasn't necessary in the past. 

This is just speculation, but do you think something changed recently in the way google docs does accessibility to necessitate braille mode with some screen readers? And are the subset of screen reader users who use google docs just more likely to be using braille anyway and not notice the change?

Thank you for pointing me to the solution!

Warmly,
Sally 

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 11:36 PM Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:
Hello,

I am not sure what the issue you're experiencing is, but I highly recommend turning on Braille mode, at this point, as it will generally provide a better accessibility experience, even if you are not using a Braille display.

Thanks.

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 2:26 PM Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...> wrote:

All docs and sheets regardless of owner or privileges and yes, accessibility is turned on. I am only using the screen reader, not braille.

Thanks,
Sally


On Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 17:12 Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:
I can't say that I have. Does this happen with all sheets, or just a specific sheet? I'm assuming that you have accessibility mode on? Are you using Braille mode, or just screen reader mode?

Thanks.

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 12:13 AM Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...> wrote:
Hi there,

I'm running Google Chrome Version 96.0.4664.45 (Official Build) (64-bit) and NVDA 2021.2.

Pressing escape doesn't help, sorry I didn't mention I had already tried that. 

NVDA announces "application, group" which I don't remember it doing before. However, the focus, according to my sighted partner, is in the spreadsheet cells like usual. 

Has anyone else been seeing something like this?

Thanks!
Sally 

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 5:01 PM Nimer Jaber <nimerjaber1@...> wrote:
Hello Sally,

Which browser are you using where this difficulty occurs? Which version of NVDA?

Next time you open a doc, after the doc has loaded, and you can't seem to access it, try pressing esc and let us know what happens.

Thanks.

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 6:30 AM Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...> wrote:
Hello, 

I can no longer read google docs or sheets on my work laptop and noticed that I need to press Tab a few extra times on my personal laptop to focus and read a doc or sheet. However, two weeks ago, I was using google docs and sheets with no problems on either machine. After the page fully loaded and I made sure browse mode was off, my focus was already in the doc or sheet content and I was able to read.

Has anyone experienced new problems reading the contents of google docs or sheets in the last 10 days? 

Does anyone know about recent G Suite updates that might be causing this? 

If not, are there known NVDA settings problems that might be causing this?

I'm not sure how to start troubleshooting this so would welcome all suggestions!

Thanks,
Sally 



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Gene
 

Those are different reasons than I had thought.  It reminds me of things I’d heard about quite some time ago but I hadn’t thought about much for a long time, such as the problems that are caused in a business when sighted people share a computer with a blind person and the screen-reader is left running.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
 
On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 04:43 PM, Gene wrote:
I’m curious why it was hard to understand.  Is it that being used to there being no cursor on web pages, the idea somehow didn’t make sense?
-
Gene,

This is a good question, and since the virtual cursor concept exists for JAWS and NVDA, I am going to quote a two sentences from the Microsoft Support page entitled, Use Microsoft Teams with the JAWS virtual cursor: "As the JAWS virtual cursor moves around on a web page or similar environment, no visible indicator is shown as to its location. This way you can move the virtual cursor outside the range of the content currently being displayed on your screen."

For someone who can see, as soon as the virtual cursor moves into territory not actually displayed on the screen I end up "in the weeds" very quickly.  This is all the more true because how screen readers decide to load a webpage into the buffer which the virtual cursor traverses often is at a big disconnect from the visual layout on the screen that structures things for the sighted.

When I first started working with JAWS the function (and I can't recall what they call it at the moment) that equates to focus highlight in NVDA did not exist.  I often would have no idea what my student was going to "land on" next because how the buffer was loaded was just so much differently than I, or anyone I know who's sighted, would have perused the copy on that webpage with our eyes.

Focus highlight, which keeps the display in sync with where the virtual cursor is located, and actually puts a visible indicator around the word, control, etc. on which the virtual cursor has focus was a godsend to me.  It was also one way I came to understand why I became so lost, because I could see how the pages were being traversed in real time, and how different the order of traversal often is compared to how I would ever have read those pages using my vision.  And I imagine that much of that ordering is driven by HTML structure, which is very different than the visual structure that HTML produces on the screen, or at least that's my theory.

I often wonder why something like focus highlight didn't make it into screen readers in general much earlier.  It's not that the target demographic for a screen reader actually need it, but one of the purposes of a screen reader (among many) is for workplace use.  I don't know of a single sighted person who doesn't get hopelessly lost when a screen reader is merrily reading all and is currently reading material that is multiple full screen scrolls down from what is currently displaying on the screen that a sighted coworker is looking at.  We "follow" with our eyes, primarily, and when the screen does not scroll along with what's being read we just don't know where in the document, webpage, whatever we are.

The best analogy I can give is if you're a Braille reader, it would be as if the screen reader kept going and going and going while your scanning finger was stopped at the bottom of the current page you're reading and was not able to continue scanning the text to determine where what's being spoken is actually located.  Unless you have the entire text memorized already, you have no idea what page the screen reader may be on.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 04:43 PM, Gene wrote:
I’m curious why it was hard to understand.  Is it that being used to there being no cursor on web pages, the idea somehow didn’t make sense? 
-
Gene,

This is a good question, and since the virtual cursor concept exists for JAWS and NVDA, I am going to quote a two sentences from the Microsoft Support page entitled, Use Microsoft Teams with the JAWS virtual cursor: "As the JAWS virtual cursor moves around on a web page or similar environment, no visible indicator is shown as to its location. This way you can move the virtual cursor outside the range of the content currently being displayed on your screen."

For someone who can see, as soon as the virtual cursor moves into territory not actually displayed on the screen I end up "in the weeds" very quickly.  This is all the more true because how screen readers decide to load a webpage into the buffer which the virtual cursor traverses often is at a big disconnect from the visual layout on the screen that structures things for the sighted.

When I first started working with JAWS the function (and I can't recall what they call it at the moment) that equates to focus highlight in NVDA did not exist.  I often would have no idea what my student was going to "land on" next because how the buffer was loaded was just so much differently than I, or anyone I know who's sighted, would have perused the copy on that webpage with our eyes.

Focus highlight, which keeps the display in sync with where the virtual cursor is located, and actually puts a visible indicator around the word, control, etc. on which the virtual cursor has focus was a godsend to me.  It was also one way I came to understand why I became so lost, because I could see how the pages were being traversed in real time, and how different the order of traversal often is compared to how I would ever have read those pages using my vision.  And I imagine that much of that ordering is driven by HTML structure, which is very different than the visual structure that HTML produces on the screen, or at least that's my theory.

I often wonder why something like focus highlight didn't make it into screen readers in general much earlier.  It's not that the target demographic for a screen reader actually need it, but one of the purposes of a screen reader (among many) is for workplace use.  I don't know of a single sighted person who doesn't get hopelessly lost when a screen reader is merrily reading all and is currently reading material that is multiple full screen scrolls down from what is currently displaying on the screen that a sighted coworker is looking at.  We "follow" with our eyes, primarily, and when the screen does not scroll along with what's being read we just don't know where in the document, webpage, whatever we are.

The best analogy I can give is if you're a Braille reader, it would be as if the screen reader kept going and going and going while your scanning finger was stopped at the bottom of the current page you're reading and was not able to continue scanning the text to determine where what's being spoken is actually located.  Unless you have the entire text memorized already, you have no idea what page the screen reader may be on.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 

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