Date   

Re: Can I still get it for free

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

Linux is plenty accessible. I've been using linux since somewhere around 1992, and I've had much better success on linux than I have had on any other operating system.
Now, with that said, I'd like to throw in the caveat that I'm a power user, rarely use the full-blown gui interface, and prefer command lines.
The most accessible gui I've ever found is on the mac under OSX, and I use that too, as well as windows. I use what's best for the current task at hand, and don't quible about which one is better. They all have their place, linux works with orca, mac works with voiceover, windows works with NVDA (and others), and how much each one works is partly up to the user. I also use BSD for certain tasks, and it's likely I'd use other operating systems too if I had them lying around here. I even used a raspberry pi for more than a year as my main computer, so I'm flexible, and don't care what's at hand, I'll use what's available, and manage to get things done, whether that's linux, windows, OSX, raspbian, BSD, dos, or some other operating system. As long as I can access it, I can find ways to get things done.

On Wed, 8 Mar 2017, Gene wrote:

From what I've heard, accessibility isn't as good in Linux. I'm not saying
Linux is less accessible.  But I've heard from more than one person on one
or two lists that Linux screen-readers aren't as good.  I'd want to see more
opinions on how horrible an operating system Windows is.  I remain
skeptical. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: David F.
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 9:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I still get it for free
This is why I wish I had the brains to learn Linux
 
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik
burggraaf
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 9:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I still get it for free
 
Gene,  Here is my reasonable take on this based on my more than 15 years of
in depth experience not only of windows, but also other major operating
systems.
First, windows is a terrible product in any itteration.  There isn't a
single thing windows does better than other operating systems except for
arketecture support.  It's the most expensive operating system to implement
if you remove hardware from the equation.  Windows supports cheeper hardware
than the competition but that doesn't negate the fact that windows itself is
the highest priced operating system on the market.  Windows is also more
expensive to maintain.  In fact, an upgrade from windows seven to windows 10
takes about two hours time.  If you have to fully patch windows seven sp1 it
takes between 3 and 6 hours depending on connection speed.  If you're paying
by the hour, which would you choose?
Windows is the least secure of all the major OS, further compounding the
astronomical maintanence cost and driving down productivity.  I have not yet
had to hack windows 10, but I have windows seven.  In windows seven it is
common place for programs to allow themselves transparently through built in
firewalling.  It is also common place for programs to run as administrator
without requiring the administrator account to be enabled or requiring an
administrator password.  It is possible for programs to sircomvent the
notification system that works on the front line, and it's even possible and
considered advisable by many people to turn the security notifications off
altogether.  In fact, it is possible when sitting at the keyboard of a
windows seven workstation to gain administrator access without logging in at
all, to add, remove, or rename windows system files, to take command line
control of a workstation, and to perform any command line function including
enabling or disabling the administrator account and changing account
credentials, all without logging in.  Litterally any improvement would be
better than the attrocity that is windows seven security.
Microsoft interface design is terrible.  Ribbons and tiles are only two
examples of design choices meant to set windows apart from competetors but
had the effect of alienating users.  Windows 10 does the smart thing and
returns the windows interface to a more desktop feel. 
Windows only gets a refresh every three years or so.  That means a lot
happens in the computer world between releases.  Because the releases are
alternately pretty decent over all come terrible to the point of
uselessness, windows appeals to pundets who don't like change and want to
hault progress.  Fine, but windows seven is coming up on 8 years old and we
are still talking about support for windows xp being discontinued.  Nowhere
else in the world of operating systems are we talking about support for 8
year old software, and 17 year old software isn't even available for
download on pirate sites.  Computers that shipped with windows 7 at the time
of the release of windows 8 are now end of lifed, and yet, I was still able
to buy and install a windows seven a month ago.  The cost to developers of
supporting four operating systems spanning 11 years: ten, eight, seven and
vista, is astronomical, and you lucky end-user, get to pay the bill.  The
cost of windows software over all is significantly higher than on any other
operating system, and part of the reason is that windows users live in the
past more than any other userbase.
Windows ten continues to be a free upgrade for current users of seven and
eight, long after it was supposed to switch to a completely paid product. 
The minimum and recommended hardware configurations are similar to those of
windows seven.  Upgrading usually brings better plug and play hardware
support and other items under the hood that users would miss if they were
gone.
There are features I like in windows ten such as it's minimalist email app
and it's improved tts voices.  Then there are things I'm not too pleased
with such as the loss of control over windows update and the increased
relience on ribbons.  True, we don't really have enough information about
this particular case to make a recommendation one way or the other, but in
general, it is more than time to leave windows seven behind unlesss you have
some substantial reason not to, such as loss of support for a crutial piece
of hardware.
All upgrades on all systems require a bit of retraining for new features or
fernature that moves, but that is part and parcel of computing.  Windows ten
is market tested, reliable and functional at this point.  Staying with
windows seven just because is fine for now if that's your personal choice,
but if you're supporting or recommending on a pro or semipro basis, the
recommendation has to be to upgrade at this point unless circomstances
dictate otherwise.
Best,
Erik
Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com
On March 8, 2017 8:39:42 AM "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:

You have made a statement and not given any reasons supporting
it.  That doesn't tell us anything except that you believe
something.  People may have reasons to upgrade from Windows 7
and Microsoft has recently claimed that for security reasons,
you should upgrade because Windows 7 is not secure enough
anymore because it isn't a new enough operating system to
incorporate newer security features.  I haven't seen any
independent discussion concerning this.  But there are always
problems that may occur when updating and in this case, the
point was stated that this is an old computer.  You don't just
upgrade.  While many upgrades from Windows 7 go well, you can't
assume they will.  I don't think it?s a good idea to urge
upgrading as a general practice.  Why is an upgrade being
considered?  What features, if any, will be used or are desired
by upgrading?  Has the computer been tested for compatibility of
the upgrade?
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: enes sar?ba?
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 7:21 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I still get it for free
 
that is an extremely bad suggesstion. If you don't have a very good
reason to not update, it is generally a good idea to update.
 
On 3/8/2017 4:04 PM, Gene wrote:

Is there a specific reason you want to use Windows 10? 
You can upgrade for free but I don't know the procedure. 
others, I expect, will advise you.  You say it's an old
laptop.  There is a Microsoft site you can use to have
your computer evaluated to see if it is able to be
upgraded.  But unless there is a specific feature you
want, I would advise leaving well enough alone. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Sakina
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 6:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Can I still get it for free
 
Hello gene and Friends,
 
I have got this passed down old laptop from a friend that has
got window 7
Please forgive me for my terminology below
I wish to update or is called upgrade to window 10
Is it possible and can I still get the window 10 for free?
If yes, than please how do I go about.
I will be and always am grateful for your help and guidance.
Thanking you all again.
With best wishes
Sakina
 
[IMAGE]
Virus-free. www.avast.com
 


Re: Can I still get it for free

Jacques <lists4js@...>
 

The old beast runs perfectly fine after I did a clean install of Win7 on it, so it does not appear to be warn out at all. I think the hardware was just a tad old and not fully compatible with 10, especially the graphics adapter, the latter which I think was the big culprit. Its now used as a media centre in the lounge, so at least not lost altogether. Anyway, theres been some clearing of throats on continuing this thread, so let me do my bit by signing off.

 

Cheers.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Wednesday, 08 March 2017 19:29
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

 

A couple of things strike me about this.

First, a laptop from 2009 that has been under regular use should not perform well in 2016, even if it was a high end name brand system.  They just don't live as long as people.  Windows ten on what you are describing to me as a warn out system might rejuvinate the system, or it may have just the opposit effect as you discovered.

The other thing that strikes me is that operating system upgrades are a bit notorious.  I have upgraded several more modern systems to windows 10 and haven't seen any performance breaks, but remember the hassle of yure installing upgrades of 98 to ME, or 2000 to XP.  I've even experienced glitches upgrading my android devices that were serious showstopper issues which went away after a clean install.  It could be you were inadvertantly bitten by the upgrade bug.

Best,

Erik

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com

On March 8, 2017 10:44:29 AM "Jacques" <lists4js@...> wrote:

Erik, you make valid points, none of which I have any problem with. Keep in mind though that the person who originally posted this question said that its an old laptop, which should be considered when deciding on a final verdict. One of my older machines here is a laptop dating back to 2009. Although quite a nice machine, it slowed down to a crawl after updating it to Win10, despite my best efforts to find the most appropriate drivers. I guess it was one of those boarder line situations, where the MS hardware validator gave it the green light, but for a power user it turned out to be shere frustration trying to use the machine after the upgrade. So yes, if the hardware leans itself towards 10, go for it, if it doesnt, stick to 7 for now and start saving for a new system, as to take advantage of the benefits of Windows 10.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Wednesday, 08 March 2017 17:04
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

 

Gene,  Here is my reasonable take on this based on my more than 15 years of in depth experience not only of windows, but also other major operating systems.

First, windows is a terrible product in any itteration.  There isn't a single thing windows does better than other operating systems except for arketecture support.  It's the most expensive operating system to implement if you remove hardware from the equation.  Windows supports cheeper hardware than the competition but that doesn't negate the fact that windows itself is the highest priced operating system on the market.  Windows is also more expensive to maintain.  In fact, an upgrade from windows seven to windows 10 takes about two hours time.  If you have to fully patch windows seven sp1 it takes between 3 and 6 hours depending on connection speed.  If you're paying by the hour, which would you choose?

Windows is the least secure of all the major OS, further compounding the astronomical maintanence cost and driving down productivity.  I have not yet had to hack windows 10, but I have windows seven.  In windows seven it is common place for programs to allow themselves transparently through built in firewalling.  It is also common place for programs to run as administrator without requiring the administrator account to be enabled or requiring an administrator password.  It is possible for programs to sircomvent the notification system that works on the front line, and it's even possible and considered advisable by many people to turn the security notifications off altogether.  In fact, it is possible when sitting at the keyboard of a windows seven workstation to gain administrator access without logging in at all, to add, remove, or rename windows system files, to take command line control of a workstation, and to perform any command line function including enabling or disabling the administrator account and changing account credentials, all without logging in.  Litterally any improvement would be better than the attrocity that is windows seven security.

Microsoft interface design is terrible.  Ribbons and tiles are only two examples of design choices meant to set windows apart from competetors but had the effect of alienating users.  Windows 10 does the smart thing and returns the windows interface to a more desktop feel. 

Windows only gets a refresh every three years or so.  That means a lot happens in the computer world between releases.  Because the releases are alternately pretty decent over all come terrible to the point of uselessness, windows appeals to pundets who don't like change and want to hault progress.  Fine, but windows seven is coming up on 8 years old and we are still talking about support for windows xp being discontinued.  Nowhere else in the world of operating systems are we talking about support for 8 year old software, and 17 year old software isn't even available for download on pirate sites.  Computers that shipped with windows 7 at the time of the release of windows 8 are now end of lifed, and yet, I was still able to buy and install a windows seven a month ago.  The cost to developers of supporting four operating systems spanning 11 years: ten, eight, seven and vista, is astronomical, and you lucky end-user, get to pay the bill.  The cost of windows software over all is significantly higher than on any other operating system, and part of the reason is that windows users live in the past more than any other userbase.

Windows ten continues to be a free upgrade for current users of seven and eight, long after it was supposed to switch to a completely paid product.  The minimum and recommended hardware configurations are similar to those of windows seven.  Upgrading usually brings better plug and play hardware support and other items under the hood that users would miss if they were gone.

There are features I like in windows ten such as it's minimalist email app and it's improved tts voices.  Then there are things I'm not too pleased with such as the loss of control over windows update and the increased relience on ribbons.  True, we don't really have enough information about this particular case to make a recommendation one way or the other, but in general, it is more than time to leave windows seven behind unlesss you have some substantial reason not to, such as loss of support for a crutial piece of hardware.

All upgrades on all systems require a bit of retraining for new features or fernature that moves, but that is part and parcel of computing.  Windows ten is market tested, reliable and functional at this point.  Staying with windows seven just because is fine for now if that's your personal choice, but if you're supporting or recommending on a pro or semipro basis, the recommendation has to be to upgrade at this point unless circomstances dictate otherwise.

Best,

Erik

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com

On March 8, 2017 8:39:42 AM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:

You have made a statement and not given any reasons supporting it.  That doesn't tell us anything except that you believe something.  People may have reasons to upgrade from Windows 7 and Microsoft has recently claimed that for security reasons, you should upgrade because Windows 7 is not secure enough anymore because it isn't a new enough operating system to incorporate newer security features.  I haven't seen any independent discussion concerning this.  But there are always problems that may occur when updating and in this case, the point was stated that this is an old computer.  You don't just upgrade.  While many upgrades from Windows 7 go well, you can't assume they will.  I don't think it’s a good idea to urge upgrading as a general practice.  Why is an upgrade being considered?  What features, if any, will be used or are desired by upgrading?  Has the computer been tested for compatibility of the upgrade?

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 7:21 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

 

that is an extremely bad suggesstion. If you don't have a very good reason to not update, it is generally a good idea to update.

 

On 3/8/2017 4:04 PM, Gene wrote:

Is there a specific reason you want to use Windows 10?  You can upgrade for free but I don't know the procedure.  others, I expect, will advise you.  You say it's an old laptop.  There is a Microsoft site you can use to have your computer evaluated to see if it is able to be upgraded.  But unless there is a specific feature you want, I would advise leaving well enough alone. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Sakina

Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 6:53 AM

Subject: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

 

Hello gene and Friends,

 

I have got this passed down old laptop from a friend that has got window 7

Please forgive me for my terminology below

I wish to update or is called upgrade to window 10

Is it possible and can I still get the window 10 for free?

If yes, than please how do I go about.

I will be and always am grateful for your help and guidance.

Thanking you all again.

With best wishes

Sakina

 

Virus-free. www.avast.com

 


Re: Slightly OT: I have my gmail full and want to delete some amount of mail Can anyone help?

Nimer Jaber
 

When using Gmail, a user can enable keyboard shortcuts that work quite well. There are hotkeys for performing such commands as delete for example.

Thanks.

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 11:04 AM Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
Ha!
 I assume Google still have their accessability mail list, has anyone told
them about this issue?
 I actually hate webmail myself butt then I'm an old fogie and the thing
about old dogs and new tricks comes to mind!
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Slightly OT: I have my gmail full and want to delete
some amount of mail Can anyone help?


Shaun,

If you figure out how to go directly to the Delete button I mention in step
4, whether with NVDA or any other screen reader, please let me know. I could
not for the life of me get NVDA to find that button, and I suspect it's
because of some design trick used for the web page or maybe it's one of
those evil "links made to look just like a button" that's become trendy
these days.

--
*Brian*

I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to
respect in any way.

~ *Ellen Evans * , soc.motss , 11/6/2004




--
Cordially,

Nimer Jaber

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you, and have a great day!


Re: Can I still get it for free

erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

A couple of things strike me about this.

First, a laptop from 2009 that has been under regular use should not perform well in 2016, even if it was a high end name brand system.  They just don't live as long as people.  Windows ten on what you are describing to me as a warn out system might rejuvinate the system, or it may have just the opposit effect as you discovered.

The other thing that strikes me is that operating system upgrades are a bit notorious.  I have upgraded several more modern systems to windows 10 and haven't seen any performance breaks, but remember the hassle of yure installing upgrades of 98 to ME, or 2000 to XP.  I've even experienced glitches upgrading my android devices that were serious showstopper issues which went away after a clean install.  It could be you were inadvertantly bitten by the upgrade bug.

Best,

Erik

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com

On March 8, 2017 10:44:29 AM "Jacques" <lists4js@...> wrote:

Erik, you make valid points, none of which I have any problem with. Keep in mind though that the person who originally posted this question said that its an old laptop, which should be considered when deciding on a final verdict. One of my older machines here is a laptop dating back to 2009. Although quite a nice machine, it slowed down to a crawl after updating it to Win10, despite my best efforts to find the most appropriate drivers. I guess it was one of those boarder line situations, where the MS hardware validator gave it the green light, but for a power user it turned out to be shere frustration trying to use the machine after the upgrade. So yes, if the hardware leans itself towards 10, go for it, if it doesnt, stick to 7 for now and start saving for a new system, as to take advantage of the benefits of Windows 10.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Wednesday, 08 March 2017 17:04
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

 

Gene,  Here is my reasonable take on this based on my more than 15 years of in depth experience not only of windows, but also other major operating systems.

First, windows is a terrible product in any itteration.  There isn't a single thing windows does better than other operating systems except for arketecture support.  It's the most expensive operating system to implement if you remove hardware from the equation.  Windows supports cheeper hardware than the competition but that doesn't negate the fact that windows itself is the highest priced operating system on the market.  Windows is also more expensive to maintain.  In fact, an upgrade from windows seven to windows 10 takes about two hours time.  If you have to fully patch windows seven sp1 it takes between 3 and 6 hours depending on connection speed.  If you're paying by the hour, which would you choose?

Windows is the least secure of all the major OS, further compounding the astronomical maintanence cost and driving down productivity.  I have not yet had to hack windows 10, but I have windows seven.  In windows seven it is common place for programs to allow themselves transparently through built in firewalling.  It is also common place for programs to run as administrator without requiring the administrator account to be enabled or requiring an administrator password.  It is possible for programs to sircomvent the notification system that works on the front line, and it's even possible and considered advisable by many people to turn the security notifications off altogether.  In fact, it is possible when sitting at the keyboard of a windows seven workstation to gain administrator access without logging in at all, to add, remove, or rename windows system files, to take command line control of a workstation, and to perform any command line function including enabling or disabling the administrator account and changing account credentials, all without logging in.  Litterally any improvement would be better than the attrocity that is windows seven security.

Microsoft interface design is terrible.  Ribbons and tiles are only two examples of design choices meant to set windows apart from competetors but had the effect of alienating users.  Windows 10 does the smart thing and returns the windows interface to a more desktop feel. 

Windows only gets a refresh every three years or so.  That means a lot happens in the computer world between releases.  Because the releases are alternately pretty decent over all come terrible to the point of uselessness, windows appeals to pundets who don't like change and want to hault progress.  Fine, but windows seven is coming up on 8 years old and we are still talking about support for windows xp being discontinued.  Nowhere else in the world of operating systems are we talking about support for 8 year old software, and 17 year old software isn't even available for download on pirate sites.  Computers that shipped with windows 7 at the time of the release of windows 8 are now end of lifed, and yet, I was still able to buy and install a windows seven a month ago.  The cost to developers of supporting four operating systems spanning 11 years: ten, eight, seven and vista, is astronomical, and you lucky end-user, get to pay the bill.  The cost of windows software over all is significantly higher than on any other operating system, and part of the reason is that windows users live in the past more than any other userbase.

Windows ten continues to be a free upgrade for current users of seven and eight, long after it was supposed to switch to a completely paid product.  The minimum and recommended hardware configurations are similar to those of windows seven.  Upgrading usually brings better plug and play hardware support and other items under the hood that users would miss if they were gone.

There are features I like in windows ten such as it's minimalist email app and it's improved tts voices.  Then there are things I'm not too pleased with such as the loss of control over windows update and the increased relience on ribbons.  True, we don't really have enough information about this particular case to make a recommendation one way or the other, but in general, it is more than time to leave windows seven behind unlesss you have some substantial reason not to, such as loss of support for a crutial piece of hardware.

All upgrades on all systems require a bit of retraining for new features or fernature that moves, but that is part and parcel of computing.  Windows ten is market tested, reliable and functional at this point.  Staying with windows seven just because is fine for now if that's your personal choice, but if you're supporting or recommending on a pro or semipro basis, the recommendation has to be to upgrade at this point unless circomstances dictate otherwise.

Best,

Erik

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com

On March 8, 2017 8:39:42 AM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:

You have made a statement and not given any reasons supporting it.  That doesn't tell us anything except that you believe something.  People may have reasons to upgrade from Windows 7 and Microsoft has recently claimed that for security reasons, you should upgrade because Windows 7 is not secure enough anymore because it isn't a new enough operating system to incorporate newer security features.  I haven't seen any independent discussion concerning this.  But there are always problems that may occur when updating and in this case, the point was stated that this is an old computer.  You don't just upgrade.  While many upgrades from Windows 7 go well, you can't assume they will.  I don't think it’s a good idea to urge upgrading as a general practice.  Why is an upgrade being considered?  What features, if any, will be used or are desired by upgrading?  Has the computer been tested for compatibility of the upgrade?

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 7:21 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

 

that is an extremely bad suggesstion. If you don't have a very good reason to not update, it is generally a good idea to update.

 

On 3/8/2017 4:04 PM, Gene wrote:

Is there a specific reason you want to use Windows 10?  You can upgrade for free but I don't know the procedure.  others, I expect, will advise you.  You say it's an old laptop.  There is a Microsoft site you can use to have your computer evaluated to see if it is able to be upgraded.  But unless there is a specific feature you want, I would advise leaving well enough alone. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Sakina

Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 6:53 AM

Subject: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

 

Hello gene and Friends,

 

I have got this passed down old laptop from a friend that has got window 7

Please forgive me for my terminology below

I wish to update or is called upgrade to window 10

Is it possible and can I still get the window 10 for free?

If yes, than please how do I go about.

I will be and always am grateful for your help and guidance.

Thanking you all again.

With best wishes

Sakina

 

Virus-free. www.avast.com

 


Re: reading the complete window or screen in document in NVDA

Gene
 

The command you gave, control shift r, for Window-eyes is not read screen.  It's read to end.  In JAWS the read screen command isn't insert w.  It's insert or JAWS key b.  In NVDA, it's also insert or NVDA key b.  Do you want read screen or read to end? 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 10:48 AM
Subject: [nvda] reading the complete window or screen in document in NVDA

Good morning to all,

I am trying to get nvda to read the complete screen in a word document.

In window-eyes this is ctrl-shift-r

In jaws it is insert w

But non of these work in nvda.  Can some one give me some guidance?

Thanks very much in advance.

 

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Re: Slightly OT. Dropbox finally ditches xp

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

My main point was to alert xp users that updating dropbox did not fix the lack of access. ththe sub topic mentioned was perhaps in need of my clarification, hhence the message.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Nimer Jaber" <nimerjaber1@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Slightly OT. Dropbox finally ditches xp


I am going to suggest that this thread either be taken offline or be
dropped as it is not on topic.

thanks.

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 10:43 AM Brian's Mail list account <
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

That is not the answer for the change I read on their forum. People had
been
posting the whole folder link so people could download audio files for a
given album. It had however upset people who had use this method to keep
graphics linked to their web pages.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Slightly OT. Dropbox finally ditches xp


Abuse has nothing to do with public links. As stated in a message sent to
Drop Box users a week or two ago, support is being dropped for public links
because, according to Drop Box, there are better methods for sharing files
now. All the files in your public folder will be kept. They will be moved
to another folder. You will have to share new links as the old links won't
work any longer. All you have to do to get new links is the following:
Move to a file you want to share in the list.
Open the context menu.
Down arrow to an item that says something like copy link to clipboard.
Press enter.
The link has now been copied.
Share it just as you did before except that you should be sure to change
the
0 at the end of the link to a 1.

While sharing your links again is an inconvenience, the procedure is almost
identical to the one previously used for Public links.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 1:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Slightly OT. Dropbox finally ditches xp


Although they have been threatening it for some months now. today seems to
be the day when it happened.
The last version which ran on xp was 13.xxx, and for about a month now its
been prompting people to update it. But today, it just sits there
permanently synching and doing whatever. Any attempt to run the latest
installer will end in a circular error of windows error in an entry point
in
a dll file.
On amd machines it will simply crash and stop working.

I am given to understand you can still get onto the web site but the
desktop
client has stopped working.
This coincides with the changes where you can no longer use links to the
public folder as a whole, for graphics etc or for file sharing, which I
understand was seen as abuse.

OK back to your normal messages.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.







--
Cordially,

Nimer Jaber

Please take the time to read this signature completely as it contains
some information about the email you have just read and all
attachments contained within as well as some valuable resources and
methods for contacting me if you have any questions or wish to talk.

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine is
up to you. Thanks.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
and above, please click here:
http://www.nvda-project.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at
(218-693-9271) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
you, and have a great day!


Re: reading the complete window or screen in document in NVDA

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

As long as its not open or Libra Office that is.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jacob Kruger" <jacob@blindza.co.za>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] reading the complete window or screen in document in NVDA


NVDA + B = read current foreground object = read window with focus, but,
if you want to read document contents, then NVDA key + down arrow cursor
key is read from system caret to end of text.


Stay well


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 2017-03-08 18:48, Dan Thompson wrote:

Good morning to all,

I am trying to get nvda to read the complete screen in a word document.

In window-eyes this is ctrl-shift-r

In jaws it is insert w

But non of these work in nvda. Can some one give me some guidance?

Thanks very much in advance.

subscribe to Friday Finds by sending a blank email with "subscribe
dan's tips" in the subject line. To

dmt031073@gmail.com

subscribe to "Hotspot With God" daily devotion by sending a blank
message with "subscribe devotion" in the subject line to

dmt031073@gmail.com

*“This is the way of peace: Overcome evil with good, and falsehood
with truth, and hatred with love.”*—Peace Pilgrim

*“God is the mind that imagines physical reality. We are each like a
cell in that mind.”*—Peter Shepherd


Re: Slightly OT: I have my gmail full and want to delete some amount of mail Can anyone help?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Ha!
I assume Google still have their accessability mail list, has anyone told them about this issue?
I actually hate webmail myself butt then I'm an old fogie and the thing about old dogs and new tricks comes to mind!
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Slightly OT: I have my gmail full and want to delete some amount of mail Can anyone help?


Shaun,

If you figure out how to go directly to the Delete button I mention in step 4, whether with NVDA or any other screen reader, please let me know. I could not for the life of me get NVDA to find that button, and I suspect it's because of some design trick used for the web page or maybe it's one of those evil "links made to look just like a button" that's become trendy these days.

--
*Brian*

I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

~ *Ellen Evans * , soc.motss , 11/6/2004


Re: Slightly OT. Dropbox finally ditches xp

Gene
 

I don't know if you can share a folder or only files using shared links.  I don't know specifically what the form was discussing.  I described how to share a file with a link, which is usually what people want to do. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Slightly OT. Dropbox finally ditches xp

That is not the answer for the change I read on their forum. People had been
posting the whole folder link so people could download audio files for a
given album. It had however upset people who had use this method to keep
graphics linked to their web pages.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Slightly OT. Dropbox finally ditches xp


Abuse has nothing to do with public links.  As stated in a message sent to
Drop Box users a week or two ago, support is being dropped for public links
because, according to Drop Box, there are better methods for sharing files
now.  All the files in your public folder will be kept.  They will be moved
to another folder.  You will have to share new links as the old links won't
work any longer.  All you have to do to get new links is the following:
Move to a file you want to share in the list.
Open the context menu.
Down arrow to an item that says something like copy link to clipboard.
Press enter.
The link has now been copied.
Share it just as you did before except that you should be sure to change the
0 at the end of the link to a 1.

While sharing your links again is an inconvenience, the procedure is almost
identical to the one previously used for Public links.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 1:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Slightly OT. Dropbox finally ditches xp


Although they have been threatening it for some months now. today seems to
be the day when it happened.
 The last version which ran on xp was 13.xxx, and for about a month now its
been prompting people to update it. But today, it just sits there
permanently synching and doing whatever. Any attempt to run the latest
installer will end in a circular error of windows error in an entry point in
a dll file.
 On amd machines it will simply crash and stop working.

I am given to understand you can still get onto the web site but the desktop
client has stopped working.
 This coincides with the changes where you can no longer use links to the
public folder as a whole, for graphics etc or for  file sharing, which I
understand was seen as abuse.

OK back to your normal  messages.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.







Re: reading the complete window or screen in document in NVDA

Jacob Kruger
 

NVDA + B = read current foreground object = read window with focus, but, if you want to read document contents, then NVDA key + down arrow cursor key is read from system caret to end of text.


Stay well


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."
On 2017-03-08 18:48, Dan Thompson wrote:

Good morning to all,

I am trying to get nvda to read the complete screen in a word document.

In window-eyes this is ctrl-shift-r

In jaws it is insert w

But non of these work in nvda.  Can some one give me some guidance?

Thanks very much in advance.

 

subscribe to Friday Finds by sending a blank email with "subscribe dan's tips" in the subject line. To

dmt031073@...

subscribe to "Hotspot With God" daily devotion by sending a blank message with "subscribe devotion" in the subject line to

dmt031073@...

“This is the way of peace: Overcome evil with good, and falsehood with truth, and hatred with love.” —Peace Pilgrim

 

“God is the mind that imagines physical reality. We are each like a cell in that mind.” —Peter Shepherd

 



Re: Slightly OT. Dropbox finally ditches xp

Nimer Jaber
 

I am going to suggest that this thread either be taken offline or be dropped as it is not on topic.

thanks.

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 10:43 AM Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
That is not the answer for the change I read on their forum. People had been
posting the whole folder link so people could download audio files for a
given album. It had however upset people who had use this method to keep
graphics linked to their web pages.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Slightly OT. Dropbox finally ditches xp


Abuse has nothing to do with public links.  As stated in a message sent to
Drop Box users a week or two ago, support is being dropped for public links
because, according to Drop Box, there are better methods for sharing files
now.  All the files in your public folder will be kept.  They will be moved
to another folder.  You will have to share new links as the old links won't
work any longer.  All you have to do to get new links is the following:
Move to a file you want to share in the list.
Open the context menu.
Down arrow to an item that says something like copy link to clipboard.
Press enter.
The link has now been copied.
Share it just as you did before except that you should be sure to change the
0 at the end of the link to a 1.

While sharing your links again is an inconvenience, the procedure is almost
identical to the one previously used for Public links.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 1:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Slightly OT. Dropbox finally ditches xp


Although they have been threatening it for some months now. today seems to
be the day when it happened.
 The last version which ran on xp was 13.xxx, and for about a month now its
been prompting people to update it. But today, it just sits there
permanently synching and doing whatever. Any attempt to run the latest
installer will end in a circular error of windows error in an entry point in
a dll file.
 On amd machines it will simply crash and stop working.

I am given to understand you can still get onto the web site but the desktop
client has stopped working.
 This coincides with the changes where you can no longer use links to the
public folder as a whole, for graphics etc or for  file sharing, which I
understand was seen as abuse.

OK back to your normal  messages.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.







--
Cordially,

Nimer Jaber

Please take the time to read this signature completely as it contains
some information about the email you have just read and all
attachments contained within as well as some valuable resources and
methods for contacting me if you have any questions or wish to talk.

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine is
up to you. Thanks.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
and above, please click here:
http://www.nvda-project.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (218-693-9271) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
you, and have a great day!


reading the complete window or screen in document in NVDA

Dan Thompson
 

Good morning to all,

I am trying to get nvda to read the complete screen in a word document.

In window-eyes this is ctrl-shift-r

In jaws it is insert w

But non of these work in nvda.  Can some one give me some guidance?

Thanks very much in advance.

 

subscribe to Friday Finds by sending a blank email with "subscribe dan's tips" in the subject line. To

dmt031073@...

subscribe to "Hotspot With God" daily devotion by sending a blank message with "subscribe devotion" in the subject line to

dmt031073@...

“This is the way of peace: Overcome evil with good, and falsehood with truth, and hatred with love.” —Peace Pilgrim

 

“God is the mind that imagines physical reality. We are each like a cell in that mind.” —Peter Shepherd

 


Re: Can I still get it for free

Mallard
 

Gene,


Orca is very good, and getting better and better. The problem is that there are lots of distros in Linux. I could describe it as the same difference there is between IOS and Android, where IOS is one and the same, while android has a lot of different Os's, depending on the device manufacturers, plus custom roms...


But I'd say Linux is more than usable; many blind researchers and devs use it all the time, in universities and the like...


Ciao,

Ollie

Il 08/03/2017 17:01, Gene ha scritto:
From what I've heard, accessibility isn't as good in Linux. I'm not saying Linux is less accessible. But I've heard from more than one person on one or two lists that Linux screen-readers aren't as good.
I'd want to see more opinions on how horrible an operating system Windows is. I remain skeptical.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* David F. <mailto:scopist65@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 08, 2017 9:51 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

This is why I wish I had the brains to learn Linux

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of *erik burggraaf
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 08, 2017 9:04 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

Gene, Here is my reasonable take on this based on my more than 15 years of in depth experience not only of windows, but also other major operating systems.

First, windows is a terrible product in any itteration. There isn't a single thing windows does better than other operating systems except for arketecture support. It's the most expensive operating system to implement if you remove hardware from the equation. Windows supports cheeper hardware than the competition but that doesn't negate the fact that windows itself is the highest priced operating system on the market. Windows is also more expensive to maintain. In fact, an upgrade from windows seven to windows 10 takes about two hours time.
If you have to fully patch windows seven sp1 it takes between 3 and 6 hours depending on connection speed. If you're paying by the hour, which would you choose?

Windows is the least secure of all the major OS, further compounding the astronomical maintanence cost and driving down productivity. I have not yet had to hack windows 10, but I have windows seven. In windows seven it is common place for programs to allow themselves transparently through built in firewalling. It is also common place for programs to run as administrator without requiring the administrator account to be enabled or requiring an administrator password. It is possible for programs to sircomvent the notification system that works on the front line, and it's even possible and considered advisable by many people to turn the security notifications off altogether. In fact, it is possible when sitting at the keyboard of a windows seven workstation to gain administrator access without logging in at all, to add, remove, or rename windows system files, to take command line control of a workstation, and to perform any command line function including enabling or disabling the administrator account and changing account credentials, all without logging in.
Litterally any improvement would be better than the attrocity that is windows seven security.

Microsoft interface design is terrible. Ribbons and tiles are only two examples of design choices meant to set windows apart from competetors but had the effect of alienating users. Windows 10 does the smart thing and returns the windows interface to a more desktop feel.

Windows only gets a refresh every three years or so. That means a lot happens in the computer world between releases. Because the releases are alternately pretty decent over all come terrible to the point of uselessness, windows appeals to pundets who don't like change and want to hault progress. Fine, but windows seven is coming up on 8 years old and we are still talking about support for windows xp being discontinued. Nowhere else in the world of operating systems are we talking about support for 8 year old software, and 17 year old software isn't even available for download on pirate sites. Computers that shipped with windows 7 at the time of the release of windows 8 are now end of lifed, and yet, I was still able to buy and install a windows seven a month ago. The cost to developers of supporting four operating systems spanning 11 years: ten, eight, seven and vista, is astronomical, and you lucky end-user, get to pay the bill. The cost of windows software over all is significantly higher than on any other operating system, and part of the reason is that windows users live in the past more than any other userbase.

Windows ten continues to be a free upgrade for current users of seven and eight, long after it was supposed to switch to a completely paid product. The minimum and recommended hardware configurations are similar to those of windows seven. Upgrading usually brings better plug and play hardware support and other items under the hood that users would miss if they were gone.

There are features I like in windows ten such as it's minimalist email app and it's improved tts voices. Then there are things I'm not too pleased with such as the loss of control over windows update and the increased relience on ribbons. True, we don't really have enough information about this particular case to make a recommendation one way or the other, but in general, it is more than time to leave windows seven behind unlesss you have some substantial reason not to, such as loss of support for a crutial piece of hardware.

All upgrades on all systems require a bit of retraining for new features or fernature that moves, but that is part and parcel of computing. Windows ten is market tested, reliable and functional at this point. Staying with windows seven just because is fine for now if that's your personal choice, but if you're supporting or recommending on a pro or semipro basis, the recommendation has to be to upgrade at this point unless circomstances dictate otherwise.

Best,

Erik

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com

On March 8, 2017 8:39:42 AM "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:

You have made a statement and not given any reasons supporting
it. That doesn't tell us anything except that you believe
something. People may have reasons to upgrade from Windows 7 and
Microsoft has recently claimed that for security reasons, you
should upgrade because Windows 7 is not secure enough anymore
because it isn't a new enough operating system to incorporate
newer security features. I haven't seen any independent
discussion concerning this. But there are always problems that
may occur when updating and in this case, the point was stated
that this is an old computer. You don't just upgrade. While many
upgrades from Windows 7 go well, you can't assume they will. I
don't think it’s a good idea to urge upgrading as a general
practice. Why is an upgrade being considered? What features, if
any, will be used or are desired by upgrading? Has the computer
been tested for compatibility of the upgrade?

Gene

----- Original Message -----

*From:*enes sarıbaş <mailto:enes.saribas@gmail.com>

*Sent:*Wednesday, March 08, 2017 7:21 AM

*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

*Subject:*Re: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

that is an extremely bad suggesstion. If you don't have a very
good reason to not update, it is generally a good idea to update.

On 3/8/2017 4:04 PM, Gene wrote:

Is there a specific reason you want to use Windows 10? You
can upgrade for free but I don't know the procedure. others,
I expect, will advise you. You say it's an old laptop. There
is a Microsoft site you can use to have your computer
evaluated to see if it is able to be upgraded. But unless
there is a specific feature you want, I would advise leaving
well enough alone.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

*From:*Sakina <mailto:sakina.gable@gmail.com>

*Sent:*Wednesday, March 08, 2017 6:53 AM

*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

*Subject:*[nvda] Can I still get it for free

Hello gene and Friends,

I have got this passed down old laptop from a friend that has
got window 7

Please forgive me for my terminology below

I wish to update or is called upgrade to window 10

Is it possible and can I still get the window 10 for free?

If yes, than please how do I go about.

I will be and always am grateful for your help and guidance.

Thanking you all again.

With best wishes

Sakina

Image removed by sender.
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>



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Re: Slightly OT. Dropbox finally ditches xp

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

That is not the answer for the change I read on their forum. People had been posting the whole folder link so people could download audio files for a given album. It had however upset people who had use this method to keep graphics linked to their web pages.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Slightly OT. Dropbox finally ditches xp


Abuse has nothing to do with public links. As stated in a message sent to Drop Box users a week or two ago, support is being dropped for public links because, according to Drop Box, there are better methods for sharing files now. All the files in your public folder will be kept. They will be moved to another folder. You will have to share new links as the old links won't work any longer. All you have to do to get new links is the following:
Move to a file you want to share in the list.
Open the context menu.
Down arrow to an item that says something like copy link to clipboard.
Press enter.
The link has now been copied.
Share it just as you did before except that you should be sure to change the 0 at the end of the link to a 1.

While sharing your links again is an inconvenience, the procedure is almost identical to the one previously used for Public links.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 1:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Slightly OT. Dropbox finally ditches xp


Although they have been threatening it for some months now. today seems to
be the day when it happened.
The last version which ran on xp was 13.xxx, and for about a month now its
been prompting people to update it. But today, it just sits there
permanently synching and doing whatever. Any attempt to run the latest
installer will end in a circular error of windows error in an entry point in
a dll file.
On amd machines it will simply crash and stop working.

I am given to understand you can still get onto the web site but the desktop
client has stopped working.
This coincides with the changes where you can no longer use links to the
public folder as a whole, for graphics etc or for file sharing, which I
understand was seen as abuse.

OK back to your normal messages.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


Re: Can I still get it for free

Angelo Sonnesso
 

You can certainly run Linux with a Windows like interface.

There are some differences, but they are not bad.

You do have the command line is you want to get geeky, but you don’t have to these days.

I personally like Vinux, designed for the Blind.

I must confess I am usually running Debian, or Ubuntu Linux.

Maybe you can give it a try in a virtual computer, and see what you think.

I ran a CP/m machine for years, and you talk about a learning curve, but you make do with what is available.

Having said all of that, once you get Windows 10 setup it is much more secure than ever.

It does get the job done.

 

73 N2DYN Angelo

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David F.
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 10:52 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

 

This is why I wish I had the brains to learn Linux

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 9:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

 

Gene,  Here is my reasonable take on this based on my more than 15 years of in depth experience not only of windows, but also other major operating systems.

First, windows is a terrible product in any itteration.  There isn't a single thing windows does better than other operating systems except for arketecture support.  It's the most expensive operating system to implement if you remove hardware from the equation.  Windows supports cheeper hardware than the competition but that doesn't negate the fact that windows itself is the highest priced operating system on the market.  Windows is also more expensive to maintain.  In fact, an upgrade from windows seven to windows 10 takes about two hours time.  If you have to fully patch windows seven sp1 it takes between 3 and 6 hours depending on connection speed.  If you're paying by the hour, which would you choose?

Windows is the least secure of all the major OS, further compounding the astronomical maintanence cost and driving down productivity.  I have not yet had to hack windows 10, but I have windows seven.  In windows seven it is common place for programs to allow themselves transparently through built in firewalling.  It is also common place for programs to run as administrator without requiring the administrator account to be enabled or requiring an administrator password.  It is possible for programs to sircomvent the notification system that works on the front line, and it's even possible and considered advisable by many people to turn the security notifications off altogether.  In fact, it is possible when sitting at the keyboard of a windows seven workstation to gain administrator access without logging in at all, to add, remove, or rename windows system files, to take command line control of a workstation, and to perform any command line function including enabling or disabling the administrator account and changing account credentials, all without logging in.  Litterally any improvement would be better than the attrocity that is windows seven security.

Microsoft interface design is terrible.  Ribbons and tiles are only two examples of design choices meant to set windows apart from competetors but had the effect of alienating users.  Windows 10 does the smart thing and returns the windows interface to a more desktop feel. 

Windows only gets a refresh every three years or so.  That means a lot happens in the computer world between releases.  Because the releases are alternately pretty decent over all come terrible to the point of uselessness, windows appeals to pundets who don't like change and want to hault progress.  Fine, but windows seven is coming up on 8 years old and we are still talking about support for windows xp being discontinued.  Nowhere else in the world of operating systems are we talking about support for 8 year old software, and 17 year old software isn't even available for download on pirate sites.  Computers that shipped with windows 7 at the time of the release of windows 8 are now end of lifed, and yet, I was still able to buy and install a windows seven a month ago.  The cost to developers of supporting four operating systems spanning 11 years: ten, eight, seven and vista, is astronomical, and you lucky end-user, get to pay the bill.  The cost of windows software over all is significantly higher than on any other operating system, and part of the reason is that windows users live in the past more than any other userbase.

Windows ten continues to be a free upgrade for current users of seven and eight, long after it was supposed to switch to a completely paid product.  The minimum and recommended hardware configurations are similar to those of windows seven.  Upgrading usually brings better plug and play hardware support and other items under the hood that users would miss if they were gone.

There are features I like in windows ten such as it's minimalist email app and it's improved tts voices.  Then there are things I'm not too pleased with such as the loss of control over windows update and the increased relience on ribbons.  True, we don't really have enough information about this particular case to make a recommendation one way or the other, but in general, it is more than time to leave windows seven behind unlesss you have some substantial reason not to, such as loss of support for a crutial piece of hardware.

All upgrades on all systems require a bit of retraining for new features or fernature that moves, but that is part and parcel of computing.  Windows ten is market tested, reliable and functional at this point.  Staying with windows seven just because is fine for now if that's your personal choice, but if you're supporting or recommending on a pro or semipro basis, the recommendation has to be to upgrade at this point unless circomstances dictate otherwise.

Best,

Erik

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com

On March 8, 2017 8:39:42 AM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:

You have made a statement and not given any reasons supporting it.  That doesn't tell us anything except that you believe something.  People may have reasons to upgrade from Windows 7 and Microsoft has recently claimed that for security reasons, you should upgrade because Windows 7 is not secure enough anymore because it isn't a new enough operating system to incorporate newer security features.  I haven't seen any independent discussion concerning this.  But there are always problems that may occur when updating and in this case, the point was stated that this is an old computer.  You don't just upgrade.  While many upgrades from Windows 7 go well, you can't assume they will.  I don't think it’s a good idea to urge upgrading as a general practice.  Why is an upgrade being considered?  What features, if any, will be used or are desired by upgrading?  Has the computer been tested for compatibility of the upgrade?

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 7:21 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

 

that is an extremely bad suggesstion. If you don't have a very good reason to not update, it is generally a good idea to update.

 

On 3/8/2017 4:04 PM, Gene wrote:

Is there a specific reason you want to use Windows 10?  You can upgrade for free but I don't know the procedure.  others, I expect, will advise you.  You say it's an old laptop.  There is a Microsoft site you can use to have your computer evaluated to see if it is able to be upgraded.  But unless there is a specific feature you want, I would advise leaving well enough alone. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Sakina

Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 6:53 AM

Subject: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

 

Hello gene and Friends,

 

I have got this passed down old laptop from a friend that has got window 7

Please forgive me for my terminology below

I wish to update or is called upgrade to window 10

Is it possible and can I still get the window 10 for free?

If yes, than please how do I go about.

I will be and always am grateful for your help and guidance.

Thanking you all again.

With best wishes

Sakina

 

Virus-free. www.avast.com

 


Re: Can I still get it for free

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I'd be very careful, Sakina. Laptops have often got specific drivers for their unusual hardware, and these may not be in windows 10. Personally, I'd leave well alone unless there is some specific reason you want to try it.
Also of course. I think even the special VI offer has ended now, at least nobody has mentioned it recently to me.

If you know the model of the machine, talk to the makers and see if they will support it with drivers in Windows 10 before you change anything.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sakina" <sakina.gable@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 12:53 PM
Subject: [nvda] Can I still get it for free


Hello gene and Friends,



I have got this passed down old laptop from a friend that has got window 7

Please forgive me for my terminology below

I wish to update or is called upgrade to window 10

Is it possible and can I still get the window 10 for free?

If yes, than please how do I go about.

I will be and always am grateful for your help and guidance.

Thanking you all again.

With best wishes

Sakina




Re: Can I still get it for free

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello,

This is a gentle suggestion that this thread be dropped or, at least, be taken off-list as it was not originally related to NVDA, and certainly the suggestions on both sides about the advisability or inadvisability of upgrading is not related to NVDA. If it continues, I will consider dawning my Admin hat.

Thanks.

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 10:01 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
From what I've heard, accessibility isn't as good in Linux. I'm not saying Linux is less accessible.  But I've heard from more than one person on one or two lists that Linux screen-readers aren't as good.  I'd want to see more opinions on how horrible an operating system Windows is.  I remain skeptical. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: David F.
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

This is why I wish I had the brains to learn Linux

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 9:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

 

Gene,  Here is my reasonable take on this based on my more than 15 years of in depth experience not only of windows, but also other major operating systems.

First, windows is a terrible product in any itteration.  There isn't a single thing windows does better than other operating systems except for arketecture support.  It's the most expensive operating system to implement if you remove hardware from the equation.  Windows supports cheeper hardware than the competition but that doesn't negate the fact that windows itself is the highest priced operating system on the market.  Windows is also more expensive to maintain.  In fact, an upgrade from windows seven to windows 10 takes about two hours time.  If you have to fully patch windows seven sp1 it takes between 3 and 6 hours depending on connection speed.  If you're paying by the hour, which would you choose?

Windows is the least secure of all the major OS, further compounding the astronomical maintanence cost and driving down productivity.  I have not yet had to hack windows 10, but I have windows seven.  In windows seven it is common place for programs to allow themselves transparently through built in firewalling.  It is also common place for programs to run as administrator without requiring the administrator account to be enabled or requiring an administrator password.  It is possible for programs to sircomvent the notification system that works on the front line, and it's even possible and considered advisable by many people to turn the security notifications off altogether.  In fact, it is possible when sitting at the keyboard of a windows seven workstation to gain administrator access without logging in at all, to add, remove, or rename windows system files, to take command line control of a workstation, and to perform any command line function including enabling or disabling the administrator account and changing account credentials, all without logging in.  Litterally any improvement would be better than the attrocity that is windows seven security.

Microsoft interface design is terrible.  Ribbons and tiles are only two examples of design choices meant to set windows apart from competetors but had the effect of alienating users.  Windows 10 does the smart thing and returns the windows interface to a more desktop feel. 

Windows only gets a refresh every three years or so.  That means a lot happens in the computer world between releases.  Because the releases are alternately pretty decent over all come terrible to the point of uselessness, windows appeals to pundets who don't like change and want to hault progress.  Fine, but windows seven is coming up on 8 years old and we are still talking about support for windows xp being discontinued.  Nowhere else in the world of operating systems are we talking about support for 8 year old software, and 17 year old software isn't even available for download on pirate sites.  Computers that shipped with windows 7 at the time of the release of windows 8 are now end of lifed, and yet, I was still able to buy and install a windows seven a month ago.  The cost to developers of supporting four operating systems spanning 11 years: ten, eight, seven and vista, is astronomical, and you lucky end-user, get to pay the bill.  The cost of windows software over all is significantly higher than on any other operating system, and part of the reason is that windows users live in the past more than any other userbase.

Windows ten continues to be a free upgrade for current users of seven and eight, long after it was supposed to switch to a completely paid product.  The minimum and recommended hardware configurations are similar to those of windows seven.  Upgrading usually brings better plug and play hardware support and other items under the hood that users would miss if they were gone.

There are features I like in windows ten such as it's minimalist email app and it's improved tts voices.  Then there are things I'm not too pleased with such as the loss of control over windows update and the increased relience on ribbons.  True, we don't really have enough information about this particular case to make a recommendation one way or the other, but in general, it is more than time to leave windows seven behind unlesss you have some substantial reason not to, such as loss of support for a crutial piece of hardware.

All upgrades on all systems require a bit of retraining for new features or fernature that moves, but that is part and parcel of computing.  Windows ten is market tested, reliable and functional at this point.  Staying with windows seven just because is fine for now if that's your personal choice, but if you're supporting or recommending on a pro or semipro basis, the recommendation has to be to upgrade at this point unless circomstances dictate otherwise.

Best,

Erik

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com

On March 8, 2017 8:39:42 AM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:

You have made a statement and not given any reasons supporting it.  That doesn't tell us anything except that you believe something.  People may have reasons to upgrade from Windows 7 and Microsoft has recently claimed that for security reasons, you should upgrade because Windows 7 is not secure enough anymore because it isn't a new enough operating system to incorporate newer security features.  I haven't seen any independent discussion concerning this.  But there are always problems that may occur when updating and in this case, the point was stated that this is an old computer.  You don't just upgrade.  While many upgrades from Windows 7 go well, you can't assume they will.  I don't think it’s a good idea to urge upgrading as a general practice.  Why is an upgrade being considered?  What features, if any, will be used or are desired by upgrading?  Has the computer been tested for compatibility of the upgrade?

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 7:21 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

 

that is an extremely bad suggesstion. If you don't have a very good reason to not update, it is generally a good idea to update.

 

On 3/8/2017 4:04 PM, Gene wrote:

Is there a specific reason you want to use Windows 10?  You can upgrade for free but I don't know the procedure.  others, I expect, will advise you.  You say it's an old laptop.  There is a Microsoft site you can use to have your computer evaluated to see if it is able to be upgraded.  But unless there is a specific feature you want, I would advise leaving well enough alone. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Sakina

Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 6:53 AM

Subject: [nvda] Can I still get it for free

 

Hello gene and Friends,

 

I have got this passed down old laptop from a friend that has got window 7

Please forgive me for my terminology below

I wish to update or is called upgrade to window 10

Is it possible and can I still get the window 10 for free?

If yes, than please how do I go about.

I will be and always am grateful for your help and guidance.

Thanking you all again.

With best wishes

Sakina

 

Image removed by sender.

Virus-free. www.avast.com

 

--
Cordially,

Nimer Jaber

Please take the time to read this signature completely as it contains
some information about the email you have just read and all
attachments contained within as well as some valuable resources and
methods for contacting me if you have any questions or wish to talk.

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
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please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
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by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
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up to you. Thanks.

Registered Linux User 529141.
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To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
and above, please click here:
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you, and have a great day!


Re: Kindle instructions in NVDA help

Jacques <lists4js@...>
 

That screen sure is a dog. Speaking from memory, the control with focus on
that screen is where you select your region. Tabbing once lands you on the
edit control where your registered e-mail address is filled in. The next tab
is for the password, after which enter should complete the process. Ollie is
right, the OCR add-on is what got me passed the registration the first time
I had to figure it out.

Jacques

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mallard
Sent: Wednesday, 08 March 2017 17:57
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Kindle instructions in NVDA help

chris,


Have you tried with Screen review or ObjectNavigation?


And, alternatively, have you tried using the OCR add-on?


I know I did it long ago, but I don't remember how. It must have been at
least three years ago, and I thought accessibility of that part had improved
meanwhile... Sad to hear it hasn't.


Ciao,

Ollie





Il 08/03/2017 16:33, Christopher-Mark Gilland ha scritto:
you have gotten way further than I have.

I cannot even get the registration dialogue to read, to sign into my
Amazon account. yes. I made absolutely certain that I had the version with
the accessibility plugged in. once the registration screen comes up, I'm
placed on a combo box that says the fall, although it is not labeled. so I
am not sure what I am picking as the default. If I press the tab key,
absolutely nothing at all happens. NVDA says absolutely nothing at all. Same
goes if I shift tab.

I had a friend try, and they had the same exact problem. This is also
occurring with jaws. so I'm completely clueless as to what is going on.
how is one supposed to navigate that dialogue, and get signed into your
Amazon account?

Chris.


Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 8, 2017, at 09:35, Jacob Kruger <jacob@blindza.co.za> wrote:

While have only ever purchased 3 kindle books - only books that couldn't
find electronic formats for anywhere else, I did just get hold of a new one,
and, installed kindle for PC 1.19.460 just to try it out under windows 10 64
bit, although have already downloaded it to my android phone, where it seems
pretty readable along with using talkback.


The only reason looked for this book was when I realised that this
version of kindle for PC should be relatively accessible along with NVDA
2017.1, but, I presume this specific book doesn't offer/allow enhanced
typesetting, which requirement is sort of mentioned in NVDA help with
regards to using browse mode to read a kindle eBook.


That's since while am in what I think is the reading area - announced as
border - NVDA reading/navigation commands don't do anything, but, something
that might be good to mention in NVDA's help on the kindle topic is that the
general kindle navigation commands, like page up, page down, arrow left and
right still seem to carry out functionality, and, I know this since pressing
space bar while in that piece of the interface does in fact toggle SAPI
voice reading of the book, using the default SAPI voice for windows 10.


In other words, while can't use NVDA's browse mode to read this book on
my PC, it seems like it's still perfectly possible to just read the book,
since NVDA does otherwise handle the interface pretty well.


So, just thought would mention this here.


Stay well


Jacob Kruger

Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."





Re: Kindle instructions in NVDA help

Jacob Kruger
 

Ollie, no worries - that's what meant when said it's probably not matching the format that NVDA can really work with in terms of content navigation.


As in, again, just thought they could maybe mention that otherwise, space bar might still be useful in terms of toggling SAPI voice reading?


Stay well


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 2017-03-08 17:48, Mallard wrote:
Hello Jacob,


I suppose it depends on the format of the book. Amazon is changing its format and, if that's abook still in the old format, not all the features for reading/navigating it with NVDA will be available.


I can't be more precise, simply because I don't know which books are readable, and which are not. I ahve loads of Kindle ebooks, and only a few of them are readable, even with braille, in NVDA. Not even the latest ones... So, what makes the difference I can't really tell exactly.


Not very helpful, I realise, but that's my experience...

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 08/03/2017 15:35, Jacob Kruger ha scritto:
While have only ever purchased 3 kindle books - only books that couldn't find electronic formats for anywhere else, I did just get hold of a new one, and, installed kindle for PC 1.19.460 just to try it out under windows 10 64 bit, although have already downloaded it to my android phone, where it seems pretty readable along with using talkback.


The only reason looked for this book was when I realised that this version of kindle for PC should be relatively accessible along with NVDA 2017.1, but, I presume this specific book doesn't offer/allow enhanced typesetting, which requirement is sort of mentioned in NVDA help with regards to using browse mode to read a kindle eBook.


That's since while am in what I think is the reading area - announced as border - NVDA reading/navigation commands don't do anything, but, something that might be good to mention in NVDA's help on the kindle topic is that the general kindle navigation commands, like page up, page down, arrow left and right still seem to carry out functionality, and, I know this since pressing space bar while in that piece of the interface does in fact toggle SAPI voice reading of the book, using the default SAPI voice for windows 10.


In other words, while can't use NVDA's browse mode to read this book on my PC, it seems like it's still perfectly possible to just read the book, since NVDA does otherwise handle the interface pretty well.


So, just thought would mention this here.


Stay well


Jacob Kruger

Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."








Re: Kindle instructions in NVDA help

Jacob Kruger
 

I used tab and shift tab a bit, but, also NVDA's object navigation a bit, to eventually find the e-mail address and password fields, and, when I was focused on one of them, I used the NVDa key + numpad enter to activate input on them - enter key might also have worked, but, not sure.


Once one of them has proper focus, I was then able to tab around input elements, and, I just left the drop-down on default FWIW.


Biggest issue was that it seemed to want me to enter an audio captcha code, and, it took a couple of restarts to get that right since while chrome is my default browser, and, while it would play the somewhat garbled audio clip to me, if I told it to give me a new one, it would also, sometimes tell me that my browser didn't support it, although it had just played a bit of audio to me.


So, no, it wasn't smooth, or perfect getting to the point where I could access the purchased books, but, I managed to fiddle around for not too long to get there.


The android implementation seems pretty usable, FWIW, if not perfect in comparison to some of the other eBook reading software I use for other formats, but anyway.


Stay well, and, good luck.


Jacob Kruger

Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 2017-03-08 17:33, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
you have gotten way further than I have.

I cannot even get the registration dialogue to read, to sign into my Amazon account. yes. I made absolutely certain that I had the version with the accessibility plugged in. once the registration screen comes up, I'm placed on a combo box that says the fall, although it is not labeled. so I am not sure what I am picking as the default. If I press the tab key, absolutely nothing at all happens. NVDA says absolutely nothing at all. Same goes if I shift tab.

I had a friend try, and they had the same exact problem. This is also occurring with jaws. so I'm completely clueless as to what is going on.
how is one supposed to navigate that dialogue, and get signed into your Amazon account?

Chris.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 8, 2017, at 09:35, Jacob Kruger <jacob@blindza.co.za> wrote:

While have only ever purchased 3 kindle books - only books that couldn't find electronic formats for anywhere else, I did just get hold of a new one, and, installed kindle for PC 1.19.460 just to try it out under windows 10 64 bit, although have already downloaded it to my android phone, where it seems pretty readable along with using talkback.


The only reason looked for this book was when I realised that this version of kindle for PC should be relatively accessible along with NVDA 2017.1, but, I presume this specific book doesn't offer/allow enhanced typesetting, which requirement is sort of mentioned in NVDA help with regards to using browse mode to read a kindle eBook.


That's since while am in what I think is the reading area - announced as border - NVDA reading/navigation commands don't do anything, but, something that might be good to mention in NVDA's help on the kindle topic is that the general kindle navigation commands, like page up, page down, arrow left and right still seem to carry out functionality, and, I know this since pressing space bar while in that piece of the interface does in fact toggle SAPI voice reading of the book, using the default SAPI voice for windows 10.


In other words, while can't use NVDA's browse mode to read this book on my PC, it seems like it's still perfectly possible to just read the book, since NVDA does otherwise handle the interface pretty well.


So, just thought would mention this here.


Stay well


Jacob Kruger

Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."