Date   

Re: Sluggishness with LibraOffice Calc

V Stuart Foote
 

With Win10 (21H2) no NVDA sluggishness  with LibreOffice Calc build 7.2.4

Sounding typed characters as typed is found in NVDA --> Preferences --> Settings --> Keyboard   -->  "Speak typed characters"


Re: Reading of MMC in windows

Richard Wells
 

Thomas: What I would do is run NVDA portable as administrator. Then all of that elevated stuff would read. Others may say that this is not a good idea, but for some tasks, this is just what I have to do if I don't want an installed NVDA and need admin access.

On 12/16/2021 2:05 AM, Thomas N. Chan wrote:

Hi all,

I notice one lack of NVDA portable copy which I am using.

Whether in windows 7 or 10, this problem still occur.

If you would type in devmgmt.msc in run box and bring up device manager.

NVDA is not reading any of the stuff

 

Even in MMC and create your own MMC snap-in.

Type in mmc in run box

Then you hit add snap-in ctrl – m

 

NVDA is not reading anything.

 

So you can imagine in windows server, all these is not reading, hard to manage those server pool without all these features  working.

 

Do I need to change any settings?

 

 

--------------------
regards
Thomas N. Chan


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Nimer Jaber
 

Sarah,

You can demand all you want, but demanding on this list, which is not yours, won't get you anywhere. If you have nothing to add to the list other than interjecting your opinions, I suggest that you not say anything.

Thanks.

On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 8:55 AM Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

Exactly. I always encourage people to google or research before asking the question on list. This way we cut down on traffic.  Actually I don’t encourage, I demand. It works, and this is how people have learned new things.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of tim
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2021 7:15 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

That is why screen readers have ways to turn on or off what you want to hear.

The main problem is people don't want to learn there screen reader. They want it handed to them pre customized to fit them.

With new features coming out in html and code programing I want it to say everything.

Then I can turn off what I don't want.

You learn that by reading the manual and help files for what ever screen reader your using.

Do that and will answer at least 99% of the questions asked on lists.

I have ben using screen readers for over 30 years and still don't know everything  in a screen reader. That is only because most of the features I don't need. When I do need them. I read and see if manual has something and if not then I ask on list.

Most of the time the answer is in the manual or help files.

 

On 12/15/2021 5:54 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

I've stayed out of this discussion, but I have to say that in large measure, I agree with Gene. I do not care about figures, lists, block quotes, as well as any other nonfunctional symbols, and I want them gone from my screen reading experience. Reading articles with all that garbage is painful. also email messages. List with one item. List with one item. Why have a list with one item, please? I get that some of these can be useful in some situations. But those of us who have been around the web for longer than a couple of years managed quite well without all this and I for one would like to go back there, and only access something like a list if it is actually worth something, i.e. it really is a list, perhaps one of many on a page that I might wish to navigate among with a quicknav key. But bullets and figures and block quotes, forget it. I'm smart enough to figure stuff out from context. Been doing it for decades and I don't need or want the time consuming verbosity. I want to be able to shut everything off that I don't want and I'd like to find it all in one place if possible in settings. 

On 12/15/2021 2:44 PM, Gene wrote:

You said:

The thing is, Gene, if history is any indicator, the maximum verbosity out of the box is not about "most people," but, as I said, beginners.

 

While that is true in various instances, I don’t think it is true when it comes to web ;pages. 

 

This is something I wouldn’t assume in terms of what a lot of users change.  When I see parts of web pages pasted from even many experienced users, I see all the deffault information unchanged.  Block quotes, list notices, etc.  While many people change these things, I suspect far more than you might suspect don’t. 

 

At present, the NVDA philosophy, I don’t know about other screen-readers appears to be, the more default verbosity the better.  IN the Punctuation/symbol pronunciation settings dialog are all sorts of structures of all sorts of shapes.  They are almost all set to be spoken at the none level so you will hear then no matter what level of punctuation you use.  I’ve seen web pages where a shape symbol doesn’t just occur once but is repeated many times.  And even if once, why hear it if it is only a visual symbol directing the eye to something? 

 

The announcement of figure, out of figure adds nothing to my understanding or comprehension.  Its just more words.  It is not user definable. 

 

I’m not saying these options shouldn’t be available.  But I don’t think we need to hear about every shape symbol on a web page by default. 

 

Since I have bloc quote notification turned off, I don’t know how often I come across them.  I looked them up and here is the relevant part of a Google web snippet":

Block quotes are used for direct quotations that are longer than 40 words. They should be offset from the main text and do not include quotation marks. Introduce the block quote on a new line.

 

In short, I could be reading all sorts of articles and come across block quotes a lot.  If I’m reading something, I generally want to read bloc quotes because they are integral parts of the text.  If someone wants them on for some reason, fine but why by default?  And how many people even know what they are and what they will skip if they skip one?  I doubt most people know, so for most people, its just words.

 

I’d really like to see a survey of users to see what elements they actually use and how many most people don’t. 

 

An interesting example is the one brought up by Sarah.  Does Sarah’s example of clicking on a triangle occur often enough to justify it being on as a default setting?  I’ve seen web pages with various shapes that do nothing functional.  I haven’t seen one with a functional symbol. 

 

Is there a way NVDA could discriminate between functionless shape symbols and functional symbols and be set to announce only functional shape ones?  ``

 

I think these things should be discussed among developers and users. 

 

If the topic doesn’t generate much response, then perhaps a lot of people don’t care. 

 

It can be argued that if someone is a student writing something like a term paper who might want all this verbosity on, How do you make it likely that people who need to know about verbosity settings will know about them?  I’m not sure about the answer but also, is it reasonable to have those who don’t use such structures and who are reading to read hear them?

Gene

Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 3:42 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 01:58 PM, Gene wrote:

I do object to the amount of verbosity when in web ;pages.  Why is bloc quote on?  I question how many people want to know information about lists.  There may be other notifications most people don’t care about and I think it would be useful to have a survey about that.

-
The thing is, Gene, if history is any indicator, the maximum verbosity out of the box is not about "most people," but, as I said, beginners.

Block quote, particularly in the contexts where it's in use, can make it much easier to navigate between the various levels of blocks of quoted text, or past them.

And I don't think there is ever going to come a day when "most users" are going to be the consideration for the "out of the box" state of verbosity on any screen reader.  It's maximized because those new to screen readers need to know way more precisely what's happening at the outset than either you or I do, and we should also know how to turn off verbosity we don't want.

Discussion regarding announcements that don't allow choice of any sort is an entirey different subject.  And there will be times where the choice made will not make you happy, and others where it will, and that's for the generic you.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: NVDA speaking numbers

Sarah k Alawami
 

Can you give an example to the best of your ability?

 

Take care all.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of JinYoun
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2021 9:44 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA speaking numbers

 

Hi, I'm not sure how to best explain it. Sometimes, I'm not sure if it is because I pressed the wrong key combination, but instead of NVDA speaking out charactors and words, it seems to be reading things out in wierd numbers... 
I hope I make sense... 


locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

Sarah k Alawami
 

I don’t know that last expression of whistling past a graveyard, but yes, learn the standard view. I don’t’ know how to use all of it, but I know enough to get myself in trouble, and nvda does read everything going on. it’s like  a mini email client in the palm of your hand.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2021 9:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

 

On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 11:56 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

No, learn the standard format.

-
And I have to say the same, simply because they have stated that the basic HTML version will eventually be discontinued.

But Google has focused all sorts of effort on making the Gmail standard view far more accessible, including specific shortcuts that can be turned on if you're a screen reader user, and that's where their ongoing efforts are focused.

There was a time when I sent anyone who used a screen reader to the basic view, but those days are long gone.  Anyone who is using the basic view is, eventually, going to have that rug pulled out from beneath them.  Whistling past the graveyard . . .
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: NVDA speaking numbers

JinYoun
 

Hi, I'm not sure how to best explain it. Sometimes, I'm not sure if it is because I pressed the wrong key combination, but instead of NVDA speaking out charactors and words, it seems to be reading things out in wierd numbers... 
I hope I make sense... 


Re: Sluggishness with LibraOffice Calc

Richard B. McDonald
 

Hi Chris!

 

For the “Speak typed characters” option, exactly *there* can I engage that?  Is it in NVDA or LO?

 

Thanks,

Richard

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Mullins
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 1:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sluggishness with LibraOffice Calc

 

Hi

NVDA and LO.Calc is not a match made in heaven but I can generally cope with it.  The fact that the full file path and file name is spoken when moving between cells is an annoyance that can be silenced with the control key.  I don’t seem to get the sluggishness you are encountering, I tend to have “Speak typed characters” on so the numbers are read out as I type, then I press the right arrow to exit the cell, then if necessary, press left arrow to move focus back to the cell just input to check the value.  Sounds a bit clunky I know but the left/right arrows do react quickly for me.

 

Cheers

Chris   

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Richard B. McDonald
Sent: 15 December 2021 16:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Sluggishness with LibraOffice Calc

 

Hi!

 

I am using Windows 10, LibraOffice 7.2.4 and NVDA 2021.3.  with Calc, there is a great amount of sluggishness, as outlined below:

 

- With a spreadsheet open, each time I enter a number into a cell, there is like a 15 second delay before NVDA responds with the number entered.

 

- When using the enter or arrow keys after entering a number into a cell to move to a new cell, it takes like 15 seconds before NVDA responds.

 

- Generally, after performing any of the two above actions, the full file path and file name is spoken.

 

I do not have any special settings in either NVDA or LO.  When using JAWS and Excel, I experience none of this sluggishness.  So, what is causing this?

 

Thanks,

Richard

 


locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

 

On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 11:56 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
No, learn the standard format.
-
And I have to say the same, simply because they have stated that the basic HTML version will eventually be discontinued.

But Google has focused all sorts of effort on making the Gmail standard view far more accessible, including specific shortcuts that can be turned on if you're a screen reader user, and that's where their ongoing efforts are focused.

There was a time when I sent anyone who used a screen reader to the basic view, but those days are long gone.  Anyone who is using the basic view is, eventually, going to have that rug pulled out from beneath them.  Whistling past the graveyard . . .
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

Sarah k Alawami
 

No, learn the standard format. I love it now. If you go into focus mode you can use the keys gmail has. It really is faster than the basic ever will be. They are fazing out the basic, thank god.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Russell
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2021 8:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

Hi NVDA,
Each time I enter my Gmail account, I need to press enter on the line that reads, "Click to go to basic."
I do not like the standard Gmail format, and want to remain in the classic format indefinitely.
Is there a hot-key or command that will accomplish this with NVDA?
Thanks in advance, I am a digest subscriber.

Best,
--
David C. Russell, Author
david.sonofhashem@...


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Sarah k Alawami
 

Exactly. I always encourage people to google or research before asking the question on list. This way we cut down on traffic.  Actually I don’t encourage, I demand. It works, and this is how people have learned new things.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of tim
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2021 7:15 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

That is why screen readers have ways to turn on or off what you want to hear.

The main problem is people don't want to learn there screen reader. They want it handed to them pre customized to fit them.

With new features coming out in html and code programing I want it to say everything.

Then I can turn off what I don't want.

You learn that by reading the manual and help files for what ever screen reader your using.

Do that and will answer at least 99% of the questions asked on lists.

I have ben using screen readers for over 30 years and still don't know everything  in a screen reader. That is only because most of the features I don't need. When I do need them. I read and see if manual has something and if not then I ask on list.

Most of the time the answer is in the manual or help files.

 

On 12/15/2021 5:54 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

I've stayed out of this discussion, but I have to say that in large measure, I agree with Gene. I do not care about figures, lists, block quotes, as well as any other nonfunctional symbols, and I want them gone from my screen reading experience. Reading articles with all that garbage is painful. also email messages. List with one item. List with one item. Why have a list with one item, please? I get that some of these can be useful in some situations. But those of us who have been around the web for longer than a couple of years managed quite well without all this and I for one would like to go back there, and only access something like a list if it is actually worth something, i.e. it really is a list, perhaps one of many on a page that I might wish to navigate among with a quicknav key. But bullets and figures and block quotes, forget it. I'm smart enough to figure stuff out from context. Been doing it for decades and I don't need or want the time consuming verbosity. I want to be able to shut everything off that I don't want and I'd like to find it all in one place if possible in settings. 

On 12/15/2021 2:44 PM, Gene wrote:

You said:

The thing is, Gene, if history is any indicator, the maximum verbosity out of the box is not about "most people," but, as I said, beginners.

 

While that is true in various instances, I don’t think it is true when it comes to web ;pages. 

 

This is something I wouldn’t assume in terms of what a lot of users change.  When I see parts of web pages pasted from even many experienced users, I see all the deffault information unchanged.  Block quotes, list notices, etc.  While many people change these things, I suspect far more than you might suspect don’t. 

 

At present, the NVDA philosophy, I don’t know about other screen-readers appears to be, the more default verbosity the better.  IN the Punctuation/symbol pronunciation settings dialog are all sorts of structures of all sorts of shapes.  They are almost all set to be spoken at the none level so you will hear then no matter what level of punctuation you use.  I’ve seen web pages where a shape symbol doesn’t just occur once but is repeated many times.  And even if once, why hear it if it is only a visual symbol directing the eye to something? 

 

The announcement of figure, out of figure adds nothing to my understanding or comprehension.  Its just more words.  It is not user definable. 

 

I’m not saying these options shouldn’t be available.  But I don’t think we need to hear about every shape symbol on a web page by default. 

 

Since I have bloc quote notification turned off, I don’t know how often I come across them.  I looked them up and here is the relevant part of a Google web snippet":

Block quotes are used for direct quotations that are longer than 40 words. They should be offset from the main text and do not include quotation marks. Introduce the block quote on a new line.

 

In short, I could be reading all sorts of articles and come across block quotes a lot.  If I’m reading something, I generally want to read bloc quotes because they are integral parts of the text.  If someone wants them on for some reason, fine but why by default?  And how many people even know what they are and what they will skip if they skip one?  I doubt most people know, so for most people, its just words.

 

I’d really like to see a survey of users to see what elements they actually use and how many most people don’t. 

 

An interesting example is the one brought up by Sarah.  Does Sarah’s example of clicking on a triangle occur often enough to justify it being on as a default setting?  I’ve seen web pages with various shapes that do nothing functional.  I haven’t seen one with a functional symbol. 

 

Is there a way NVDA could discriminate between functionless shape symbols and functional symbols and be set to announce only functional shape ones?  ``

 

I think these things should be discussed among developers and users. 

 

If the topic doesn’t generate much response, then perhaps a lot of people don’t care. 

 

It can be argued that if someone is a student writing something like a term paper who might want all this verbosity on, How do you make it likely that people who need to know about verbosity settings will know about them?  I’m not sure about the answer but also, is it reasonable to have those who don’t use such structures and who are reading to read hear them?

Gene

Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 3:42 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 01:58 PM, Gene wrote:

I do object to the amount of verbosity when in web ;pages.  Why is bloc quote on?  I question how many people want to know information about lists.  There may be other notifications most people don’t care about and I think it would be useful to have a survey about that.

-
The thing is, Gene, if history is any indicator, the maximum verbosity out of the box is not about "most people," but, as I said, beginners.

Block quote, particularly in the contexts where it's in use, can make it much easier to navigate between the various levels of blocks of quoted text, or past them.

And I don't think there is ever going to come a day when "most users" are going to be the consideration for the "out of the box" state of verbosity on any screen reader.  It's maximized because those new to screen readers need to know way more precisely what's happening at the outset than either you or I do, and we should also know how to turn off verbosity we don't want.

Discussion regarding announcements that don't allow choice of any sort is an entirey different subject.  And there will be times where the choice made will not make you happy, and others where it will, and that's for the generic you.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

Gene
 

I made an error.  I mistakenly sent this message to the main NVDA group.  I will send it to the chat list.  Please answer on the chat list.
 
Gene
-----Orignal Message-----

Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2021 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA
 
While I usually use an e-mail program with GMail, there is an odd problem that may cause trouble one of these days. 
 
I can work with my actual account without problems.  But GMail, when in the standard view, thinks I am offline.  Hangouts works, but e-mail doesn’t.  I have the off line option disabled and this problem began before I even knew there was one. 
 
If I use the basic view, the site works as expected.  It doesn’t think I am offline. 
 
I’ve tried to solve the problem by using another computer and the same behavior occurs.  I’ve rebooted my fiber optic cable modem once or twice for other reasons which would have changed my ISP address and that accomplishes nothing.  I’ve done Google searches on the problem and found nothing applicable.  I’ve seen a number of suggestions, which don’t apply.
While I doubt members will have a solution that works for this odd obscure problem, I’m asking just in case. 
 
Gene
------Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2021 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA
 
Two recent topics and posts, with which I happen to agree, since Google is phasing out the Basic HTML view:

https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/89192 

https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/89828 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

Gene
 

While I usually use an e-mail program with GMail, there is an odd problem that may cause trouble one of these days. 
 
I can work with my actual account without problems.  But GMail, when in the standard view, thinks I am offline.  Hangouts works, but e-mail doesn’t.  I have the off line option disabled and this problem began before I even knew there was one. 
 
If I use the basic view, the site works as expected.  It doesn’t think I am offline. 
 
I’ve tried to solve the problem by using another computer and the same behavior occurs.  I’ve rebooted my fiber optic cable modem once or twice for other reasons which would have changed my ISP address and that accomplishes nothing.  I’ve done Google searches on the problem and found nothing applicable.  I’ve seen a number of suggestions, which don’t apply.
While I doubt members will have a solution that works for this odd obscure problem, I’m asking just in case. 
 
Gene

------Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2021 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA
 
Two recent topics and posts, with which I happen to agree, since Google is phasing out the Basic HTML view:

https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/89192 

https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/89828 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

 

Two recent topics and posts, with which I happen to agree, since Google is phasing out the Basic HTML view:

https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/89192 

https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/89828 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

Gene
 

this has nothing to do with NVDA.  The option to cause GMail to open in basic HTML on the web site doesn’t work and hasn’t for some time.  But there is a link you can use that will always cause GMail to open in the Basic HTML view.  That link is:
 
Others may recommend that you use the standard view.  I don’t use the web interface to any extent and I’m not recommending anything except that if you don’t know how to use GMail in the standard view, that you ask for basic information.  You may find it much preferable to the basic view once you try it.  You have to use it in certain ways such as with the virtual pc cursor or browse mode, as it is called in NVDA, turned off.  A lot of people who use the standard view as intended by Google far prefer it to the classic view.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2021 10:14 AM
Subject: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA
 
Hi NVDA,
Each time I enter my Gmail account, I need to press enter on the line
that reads, "Click to go to basic."
I do not like the standard Gmail format, and want to remain in the
classic format indefinitely.
Is there a hot-key or command that will accomplish this with NVDA?
Thanks in advance, I am a digest subscriber.

Best,
--
David C. Russell, Author
david.sonofhashem@...





locked GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

David Russell
 

Hi NVDA,
Each time I enter my Gmail account, I need to press enter on the line
that reads, "Click to go to basic."
I do not like the standard Gmail format, and want to remain in the
classic format indefinitely.
Is there a hot-key or command that will accomplish this with NVDA?
Thanks in advance, I am a digest subscriber.

Best,
--
David C. Russell, Author
david.sonofhashem@...


Re: NVDA Features feedback

 
Edited

Hi,

Project Longhorn: I'm about to do it again (stay tuned for details).

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: NVDA Features feedback

tim
 

That is why screen readers have ways to turn on or off what you want to hear.

The main problem is people don't want to learn there screen reader. They want it handed to them pre customized to fit them.

With new features coming out in html and code programing I want it to say everything.

Then I can turn off what I don't want.

You learn that by reading the manual and help files for what ever screen reader your using.

Do that and will answer at least 99% of the questions asked on lists.

I have ben using screen readers for over 30 years and still don't know everything  in a screen reader. That is only because most of the features I don't need. When I do need them. I read and see if manual has something and if not then I ask on list.

Most of the time the answer is in the manual or help files.


On 12/15/2021 5:54 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

I've stayed out of this discussion, but I have to say that in large measure, I agree with Gene. I do not care about figures, lists, block quotes, as well as any other nonfunctional symbols, and I want them gone from my screen reading experience. Reading articles with all that garbage is painful. also email messages. List with one item. List with one item. Why have a list with one item, please? I get that some of these can be useful in some situations. But those of us who have been around the web for longer than a couple of years managed quite well without all this and I for one would like to go back there, and only access something like a list if it is actually worth something, i.e. it really is a list, perhaps one of many on a page that I might wish to navigate among with a quicknav key. But bullets and figures and block quotes, forget it. I'm smart enough to figure stuff out from context. Been doing it for decades and I don't need or want the time consuming verbosity. I want to be able to shut everything off that I don't want and I'd like to find it all in one place if possible in settings. 

On 12/15/2021 2:44 PM, Gene wrote:
You said:
The thing is, Gene, if history is any indicator, the maximum verbosity out of the box is not about "most people," but, as I said, beginners.
 
While that is true in various instances, I don’t think it is true when it comes to web ;pages. 
 
This is something I wouldn’t assume in terms of what a lot of users change.  When I see parts of web pages pasted from even many experienced users, I see all the deffault information unchanged.  Block quotes, list notices, etc.  While many people change these things, I suspect far more than you might suspect don’t. 
 
At present, the NVDA philosophy, I don’t know about other screen-readers appears to be, the more default verbosity the better.  IN the Punctuation/symbol pronunciation settings dialog are all sorts of structures of all sorts of shapes.  They are almost all set to be spoken at the none level so you will hear then no matter what level of punctuation you use.  I’ve seen web pages where a shape symbol doesn’t just occur once but is repeated many times.  And even if once, why hear it if it is only a visual symbol directing the eye to something? 
 
The announcement of figure, out of figure adds nothing to my understanding or comprehension.  Its just more words.  It is not user definable. 
 
I’m not saying these options shouldn’t be available.  But I don’t think we need to hear about every shape symbol on a web page by default. 
 
Since I have bloc quote notification turned off, I don’t know how often I come across them.  I looked them up and here is the relevant part of a Google web snippet":
Block quotes are used for direct quotations that are longer than 40 words. They should be offset from the main text and do not include quotation marks. Introduce the block quote on a new line.
 
In short, I could be reading all sorts of articles and come across block quotes a lot.  If I’m reading something, I generally want to read bloc quotes because they are integral parts of the text.  If someone wants them on for some reason, fine but why by default?  And how many people even know what they are and what they will skip if they skip one?  I doubt most people know, so for most people, its just words.
 
I’d really like to see a survey of users to see what elements they actually use and how many most people don’t. 
 
An interesting example is the one brought up by Sarah.  Does Sarah’s example of clicking on a triangle occur often enough to justify it being on as a default setting?  I’ve seen web pages with various shapes that do nothing functional.  I haven’t seen one with a functional symbol. 
 
Is there a way NVDA could discriminate between functionless shape symbols and functional symbols and be set to announce only functional shape ones?  ``
 
I think these things should be discussed among developers and users. 
 
If the topic doesn’t generate much response, then perhaps a lot of people don’t care. 
 
It can be argued that if someone is a student writing something like a term paper who might want all this verbosity on, How do you make it likely that people who need to know about verbosity settings will know about them?  I’m not sure about the answer but also, is it reasonable to have those who don’t use such structures and who are reading to read hear them?
Gene
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
 
On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 01:58 PM, Gene wrote:
I do object to the amount of verbosity when in web ;pages.  Why is bloc quote on?  I question how many people want to know information about lists.  There may be other notifications most people don’t care about and I think it would be useful to have a survey about that.
-
The thing is, Gene, if history is any indicator, the maximum verbosity out of the box is not about "most people," but, as I said, beginners.

Block quote, particularly in the contexts where it's in use, can make it much easier to navigate between the various levels of blocks of quoted text, or past them.

And I don't think there is ever going to come a day when "most users" are going to be the consideration for the "out of the box" state of verbosity on any screen reader.  It's maximized because those new to screen readers need to know way more precisely what's happening at the outset than either you or I do, and we should also know how to turn off verbosity we don't want.

Discussion regarding announcements that don't allow choice of any sort is an entirey different subject.  And there will be times where the choice made will not make you happy, and others where it will, and that's for the generic you.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Gene
 

I don’t use list information.  I don’t know, if I did, if I’d find it more useful than hearing list information announced interrupting my reading but because I don’t want the interruption, I have it off.  I’m not saying all my settings would be those the majority of users would want.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2021 4:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
 

Hi Gene,

 

Why do you question lists being read out, I find this extremely useful, and that’s the problem with anyone trying to force defaults to be to their own personal tastes.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 15 December 2021 18:58
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

I don’t object to the amount of verbosity in screen-readers for general use.  And even you said you expect there to be different levels of verbosity settings in NVDA, which there aren’t.  I do object to the amount of verbosity when in web ;pages.  Why is bloc quote on?  I question how many people want to know information about lists.  There may be other notifications most people don’t care about and I think it would be useful to have a survey about that. 

 

And there is still no way to turn figure out of figure notifications off, nor to turn off, on the fly, announcements of symbols on web [pages.  It doesn’t benefit me at all to hear left pointing triangle when I’m reading a web

page and on some pages, I hear such information repeatedly.  Recently, I discovered another new or rather new addition.  I don’t remember the wording, but it was something like emphasis area.  It was thoroughly distracting, and because the portion of the page had such material close together, I kept hearing in and out of emphasis area.  This is not at all helpful.  Perhaps it is something different like marked area.  Others may remember. 

 

There seems to be an attitude that the more verbosity on web pages, the better.  I think its time that this be discussed.  And its not because I mind adjusting verbosity myself.  I just think the approach is wrong and that many people won’t learn enough to know how to control it.

 

If there is going to be this amount of verbosity, and it keeps being added to, I think users should be surveyed.  On what basis are such decisions made now?

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Brian Vogel

Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 12:03 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 12:06 PM, Gene wrote:

That’s one reason I object to so much verbosity being on by default.

-
Gene, I'm sorry, but the only response to this complaint is:  Get over it, and get on with tweaking your configurations.

I do not know of a single screen reader that is not set to "maximum verbosity" in its out of the box state with the clear intention of making things maximally easy for neophyte users.

Long term users of software, not just screen readers, need to know how to tweak settings to their personal preferences.  You do this, but far, far, far too many will not.  If one-tenth the time spent complaining about things "not liked" that are resettable were spent actually asking about whether such were resettable, and then resetting them once the information is presented, most of the complaining would vanish.

If you are using any complex piece of software, ignorance is no excuse for endless complaining.  Ignorance can be easily cured by asking, but it's never cured by complaining and making assertions (and they're far too frequent) that thing X or thing Y can't be done because you've not lifted a finger to research or inquire about whether they can be done.

Windows, Android, JAWS, NVDA, Narrator, MS-Word, MS-Excel, and the list goes on and on will never be "easy to use" if you want to exploit them to their maximum extent and get your cyber world working in a way that's most pleasing to you.  Large amounts of customization are required.  This is one of the reasons, among many, that I and all professional computer techs insist that all users should be doing system image backups on a regular, cyclic basis.  There is a massive amount of time and effort put into getting one's computing environment just as one likes it, and it generally occurs over years and in such a way that you have no memory of a great deal of how certain specific things came to be.  If you have a system drive failure or any one of a number of other disasters, all of that is lost in one fell swoop with very little chance that it can ever be recovered.  If you have a backup, you can get it all back, quickly, and with a minimum of muss and fuss (and that's even if you need to engage a tech to do the actual work).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Gene
 

Punctuation isn’t spoken when set to none. 
But one thing I still think shouldn’t be announced by default are what I call shapes.  You will se an example in a later message.  It has been said that one shape I discussed a left pointing triangle, may take an action.  In that case, it may be justified to announce it.  But I’m sure that almost all shapes never do.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2021 1:56 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
 

Hello all,

Gene, on the matter of punctuation, I fully agree with you.

I mean - who thought that it is a good idea to define some of the punctuation to be spoken at level "None" (!?). What part of the meaning of the word "none" such people do not understand (!?). At least for me, the word "none" means "nothing". Maybe for those people the word "none" instead means "something" (?). Well - it does not - it means "nothing". Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but I'm just seriously surprised at such a strange decision about the spoken punctuation.

In my opinion, the punctuation level "none" should set NVDA to not speak any punctuation. Yes, even on level "none", some of the punctuation (e.g. period, comma, exclamation, question, etc.) should be send directly to the speech synthesizer for processing, but it should not be converted to text for speaking. And I'm planning to file a ticket in NVDA's GitHub page with such a feature request for this behavior of NVDA to be changed.

And for people who for one reason or another want more punctuation spoken, they can set NVDA to a punctuation level different than "none".

As for verbosity. In my opinion, by default it should be set so at least most things are reported by the screen reader. Reason: accommodation of novice users. Advanced users can reduce it if they want. And yes, the ability to easily set the verbosity level with presets (like we have for punctuation) would be a good idea.

______
Best wishes,
Kostadin Kolev

На 16.12.2021 г. в 6:54, Gene написа:
Having said that, I still think some of this is ridiculous.  Here is such an absurd example of oververbosity that I am sending it.  This is how a song list is formatted on a Youtube page.  The eye candy has no function.
I am using the no punctuation setting yet these signs are set to none as they all or almost all are.
【00:00】A1 - If You Love Me
【02:34】A2 - The Whale
【06:01】A3 - Rosie Jane
【09:09】A4 - What Have They Done To The Rain
【11:25】A5 - On The Rim Of The World
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
 
I’ll add that the reason I vfind your comments valuable is that until now, I’ve never seen a good or systematic reason why more and more verbosity is made available and is turned on by default.  Never having seen a reason, I just thought of it as unnecessary to a lot of users.  But since you made a case for its value, I started thinking about how to preserve the practice and easily allow users to control verbosity.  Sometimes, knowing why something is done helps figure out how to solve a problem.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
 
That’s an interesting position, that not adding verbosity will creat blackout.  It may have merit or some merit.  But perhaps there is a better way.  Perhaps for new users of NVDA, an announcement might be made when using browse mode that will tell people about how to control verbosity.  To make such an announcement practical, there would have to be commands such as no verbosity, moderate verbosity and all verbosity.  The user could be referred to information discussing verbosity on web pages, perhaps a link could be available.  But I don’t think that just having everything on is a good solution with no structure that directs the user to learn about verbosity on the Internet. 
 
I wouldn’t object to the level of verbosity now used if what I am suggesting were implemented. 
 
And the structure could have a don’t show me this again option.  That might be the best solution.  Whatever level of verbosity the developers want to use and a structure such as I am proposing.
 
This may be something I’ll propose on Github.  Your comments are very useful in proposing a reason to have verbosity on and have led me to consider what I am proposing.
 
Gene.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
 
On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 01:58 PM, Gene wrote:
If there is going to be this amount of verbosity, and it keeps being added to, I think users should be surveyed.
-
And, I have to say, I don't.

The additions to verbosity are the direct result to new additions to web coding.  Structures have appeared, and will continue to appear, that have not existed in the past.  And some that existed and were used extensively fall out of favor.

It should never be up to a screen reader developer to hide any information about new content as the web develops.  The default should always be to announce its presence, as otherwise you're intentionally creating information blackout about formatting and structure.

You should also easily be able to turn this verbosity off, and I do agree (and kinda said it) that there should be verbosity levels that roughly equate to what long term users say about what they do and do not want to hear announced.  Even if those exist, people will likely need to custom tweak at a given verbosity level to bring back certain things now quieted and vice versa.  Those new things should be moved into the verbosity levels after they have been in use for some arbitrary period of time.  But when they're brand spankin' new, they have to be something a screen reader user is made aware of.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Steve Nutt
 

Hi,

 

Punctuation is interesting. It is sometimes forced on you by the synthesiser you are using.

 

JAWS has a nice feature called Controlled By Synthesiser, but if you turn that off, then JAWS completely handles punctuation.

 

CodeFactory’s Eloquence and Vocalizer voices also have these settings.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Kostadin Kolev
Sent: 16 December 2021 07:57
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

Hello all,

Gene, on the matter of punctuation, I fully agree with you.

I mean - who thought that it is a good idea to define some of the punctuation to be spoken at level "None" (!?). What part of the meaning of the word "none" such people do not understand (!?). At least for me, the word "none" means "nothing". Maybe for those people the word "none" instead means "something" (?). Well - it does not - it means "nothing". Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but I'm just seriously surprised at such a strange decision about the spoken punctuation.

In my opinion, the punctuation level "none" should set NVDA to not speak any punctuation. Yes, even on level "none", some of the punctuation (e.g. period, comma, exclamation, question, etc.) should be send directly to the speech synthesizer for processing, but it should not be converted to text for speaking. And I'm planning to file a ticket in NVDA's GitHub page with such a feature request for this behavior of NVDA to be changed.

And for people who for one reason or another want more punctuation spoken, they can set NVDA to a punctuation level different than "none".

As for verbosity. In my opinion, by default it should be set so at least most things are reported by the screen reader. Reason: accommodation of novice users. Advanced users can reduce it if they want. And yes, the ability to easily set the verbosity level with presets (like we have for punctuation) would be a good idea.

______
Best wishes,
Kostadin Kolev

На 16.12.2021 г. в 6:54, Gene написа:

Having said that, I still think some of this is ridiculous.  Here is such an absurd example of oververbosity that I am sending it.  This is how a song list is formatted on a Youtube page.  The eye candy has no function.

I am using the no punctuation setting yet these signs are set to none as they all or almost all are.

00:00A1 - If You Love Me

02:34A2 - The Whale

06:01A3 - Rosie Jane

09:09A4 - What Have They Done To The Rain

11:25A5 - On The Rim Of The World

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Gene

Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 5:06 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

I’ll add that the reason I vfind your comments valuable is that until now, I’ve never seen a good or systematic reason why more and more verbosity is made available and is turned on by default.  Never having seen a reason, I just thought of it as unnecessary to a lot of users.  But since you made a case for its value, I started thinking about how to preserve the practice and easily allow users to control verbosity.  Sometimes, knowing why something is done helps figure out how to solve a problem.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 4:56 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

That’s an interesting position, that not adding verbosity will creat blackout.  It may have merit or some merit.  But perhaps there is a better way.  Perhaps for new users of NVDA, an announcement might be made when using browse mode that will tell people about how to control verbosity.  To make such an announcement practical, there would have to be commands such as no verbosity, moderate verbosity and all verbosity.  The user could be referred to information discussing verbosity on web pages, perhaps a link could be available.  But I don’t think that just having everything on is a good solution with no structure that directs the user to learn about verbosity on the Internet. 

 

I wouldn’t object to the level of verbosity now used if what I am suggesting were implemented. 

 

And the structure could have a don’t show me this again option.  That might be the best solution.  Whatever level of verbosity the developers want to use and a structure such as I am proposing.

 

This may be something I’ll propose on Github.  Your comments are very useful in proposing a reason to have verbosity on and have led me to consider what I am proposing.

 

Gene.

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 3:58 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 01:58 PM, Gene wrote:

If there is going to be this amount of verbosity, and it keeps being added to, I think users should be surveyed.

-
And, I have to say, I don't.

The additions to verbosity are the direct result to new additions to web coding.  Structures have appeared, and will continue to appear, that have not existed in the past.  And some that existed and were used extensively fall out of favor.

It should never be up to a screen reader developer to hide any information about new content as the web develops.  The default should always be to announce its presence, as otherwise you're intentionally creating information blackout about formatting and structure.

You should also easily be able to turn this verbosity off, and I do agree (and kinda said it) that there should be verbosity levels that roughly equate to what long term users say about what they do and do not want to hear announced.  Even if those exist, people will likely need to custom tweak at a given verbosity level to bring back certain things now quieted and vice versa.  Those new things should be moved into the verbosity levels after they have been in use for some arbitrary period of time.  But when they're brand spankin' new, they have to be something a screen reader user is made aware of.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 

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