Hi William

Glad to see you are getting to grips with NVDA but I thought a little more explanation of the capslock feature described by Gene would be of interest to you.  In explaining how to enter the NVDA menu and set the capslock checkbox, Gene said to press Insert + n to display the NVDA menu.  Having set the checkbox and saved the settings, the Capslock key now works the same as the Insert key for the purpose of entering NVDA commands, as it is now an NVDA modifier key.  This is great for touch typists as you now have an NVDA modifier key either side of the keyboard, so for example you could now use the Capslock + n combination to open the NVDA menu.  Pressing the key twice quickly enables the Capslock key to perform its usual function.

 

Cheers

Chris

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of willmac@...
Sent: 17 May 2016 09:19
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

 

Thanks Gene.  This exactly what I want. An action to turn CAPS LOCK on or off to allow me to type text with Caps Lock off and after wards putting CAP LOCK on again.

 Thank you.

 

William

 

------ Original Message ------

From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: 2016/05/16 5:47:35 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

It sounds as though you are doing better in working with web pages.  That's good. 

 

I'm not sure what you want to do.  If you want to disable the caps lock key so that pressing it does nothing, that is not an NVDA setting.  But you can set NVDA so that the caps lock has to be pressed twice quickly to keep it from turning on or off. 

 

Issue the command insert n.  You can use either insert.

Down arrow to preferences.  Press enter.

Down arrow to keyboard settings.

Press enter.

Tab to the check box that says some thing like use caps lock as modifier.

Press the space bar to check the check box, then press enter.

You are now back where you started.  The dialog has closed.

Now issue the command insert control c to save the setting permanently.  You will hear something like configuration saved.  This will save all your current settings so be sure you haven't changed anything else that you don't want changed permanently. 

 

Gene

 

 

From: willmac@...

Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 9:45 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

 

 

Hi Gene,

 

At last I seem to have gone a stage further. You will not believe the effort I put into this.

 

As far as I can ascertain, I followed your tutorial faithfully.  What I did NOT do was give the keystroke "down arrow" time to work through the various options before it started reading.

 

Thank you for your patience and help.

Regards.

William.

PS. Is there a shortcut key to turn off Caps Lock while using NVDA

 

 

 

 

 

------ Original Message ------

From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: 2016/05/13 6:38:08 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

This is like a very short tutorial.  Trying what I describe may help you understand and work with what we have been discussing.

 

Let's use this very nonstandard web page to get to a much more typical one.  Open the page, make sure you are at the top with the command control home.

Now tab to the first story.  The first news story is:

Solidarity launches class action against GEPF

Follow that link by pressing enter.

You will be taken to the page with the story.  Starting at the top of the page, press h.  That will move you to a heading and as you continue to press it, you will be moved to other headings.  The heading that is the title of the story is where the article begins.  If you start reading from there by down arrowing or by using the read to end command, you will start hearing the article.  If you stop reading and press h two or three more times, you will see a heading that says your next story.  There will be a link to the next story either above or below the heading.  A heading is written using a different format to draw the reader's eye to the text of the heading.  You don't do anything with a heading except read it.  You would expect the link to be below the heading since the heading is not a link.  And if you down arrow, you will find the link.  You may find on some sites, that you have to up arrow, but usually, if the heading is not the link, you would down arrow. 

 

Gene

From: Gene

Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 10:16 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

 

This message is long but I'm not sure the material could have been adequately covered in a shorter message.

 

The site you are discussing is not a typical Internet site. 

First a comment or two about structures in general.  You don't open headings.  You move to them.  You follow links by pressing enter on them.  But the site you are working with has nothing but links.  That is very nonstandard.  Go to the page you asked about.  Either start reading or if you just want to see links on this page, start tabbing.  Follow links by pressing enter.  If you want to learn to work with the commands you are trying to work with, use a conventionally formatted site.  Lots of sites are more or less conventionally formatted.  But this site is so nonstandard that we can tell you how to work with this site but it is not representative of most other sites. 

 

Here is more information. 

 

On the page you gave a link for, most quick navigation keys will only give you messages such as no next heading or no next button, etc.  That's because there are none and wherever you are on the page, there are none below where you are.  The commands such as h move to the next heading below your current position.  On this page, no matter where you are, there are no headings below where you are.  There is nothing anywhere on the page but links and text. 

even at the top of the page moving down the entire page, there are none. 

 

All such commands, b for button, x for check box, etc. look for what they are supposed to look for moving down the page.  If they find what they are looking for, they move you to it.  If they don't find anything, you will stay where you are on the page.

 

I would suggest you get an NVDA tutorial and listen to sections you consider important.  A very well thought of tutorial is available here:

http://www.nvda-kr.org/en/

If you look through the page, you will see how it is organized and you will get an idea of what you want to listen to.  Some people learn better using written material but many people prefer tutorials and if you do, this is a good one.

 

As far as how the keys work in general, I don't know how many sites you've tried them on.  If you go to a more or less standard site, you should get responses from many of the keys. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

From: willmac@...

Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 9:01 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

 

Hi Gene & Brian.

 

First of all in response to an earlier reference from Gene I must state categorically that I am a complete novice as regards NVDA.

I have heard the term "there are more than one way to skin a cat".  Well I am present not able to skin any cat.

I have read thru quite a bit of the short cut keys and they do not react to the way I expect.

 

That is why i submitted my originally URL http://t.digitalnewspaper.co.za/nl/jsp/m.jsp?c=%40fjNSuVTurK7VzhMSOxyzIucXl%2BKsnii1IrXYxuvhTwY%3D which I list again. Gene went to a lot of trouble detailing certain key strokes. However en this led to all sort of results.

I am not all interested in any  k links. If at all possible would it not be possible to give me the simplest method,  At this stage I am only interested in opening the headings and would want the key strokes required to read such articles continuously to the end.  Is this possible?.

 

Regards,

William

 

 

 

------ Original Message ------

From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: 2016/05/12 6:15:20 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

Gene,

           When the format of a given specific webpage is known, and in this case it is known to be nothing more than a list of links to articles, I don't think it's a disservice to anyone who cannot see to state that fact and to tell them that for this particular page using an elements list is the way to go.

           I'm not trying to teach general principles here, but to help someone get through a very specific webpage, and its child pages.

           And, yes, that's my opinion when I have a specific case under discussion, not a "how would one best go about this in the general case of an unfamiliar page."  Even then I'd encourage someone to give the elements list a look to get a quick snapshot regarding what links, headers, or landmarks might or might not be present.  There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Brian
-- 

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts. 

   ~ Henry Rosovsky

    

 

In your message concerning Flash and html5, which I didn't keep, so I'm writing from my recollection, it appears you said that flash didn't play well in XP.  I have never had problems related to XP specifically and Flash.  Even on a slow machine, Flash played properly.  It's HTML5 that doesn't play well on both of my XP machines and one should certainly be more than fast enough to play HTML5 audio content properly. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 3:11 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] embedded object in Firefox

Disabling the Flash player may or may not solve the problem.  If HTML5 is available from the site, the HTML5 code is usually accessible and will likely allow you to play the audio if the Flash player being used is inaccessible.  But just disabling Flash may keep you from listening to audio you want to hear.  It depends on whether the site in question supports HTML5 at this time.  Many sites do and many don't.  I expect there is a way to make HTML the default choice which would allow the site to give you Flash content if necessary.  If this option is available, it would be a browser setting or would be made available in a plugin.  I don't know enough to comment further.  And it should be pointed out that I've tested with two XP machines and HTML audio doesn't play properly even though it's supposed to.  It appears that HTML5 isn't properly compatible with XP, at least not at this time and it might never be.  I have tested with both Chrome and Firefox with bad results.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Pete

Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 2:03 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] embedded object in Firefox

   I disabled adobe flash player for this vary reason,
   I get warnings about flash player being disabled but the audio still
plays,
   not sure what is actually playing the audio,
   using fire fox 46.0 win 7 64 pro nvda latest.
   Pete


On 5/7/2016 10:06 AM, Cearbhall O'Meadhra wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I found a problem in Firefox when attempting to listen to a sample of an
> audio book in the BorrowBox library system. I don't know if this is an NVDA
> problem or exclusively a Firefox Flash Player issue. or if Bolinda need to
> do something with their Java script. I should mention that the sighted user
> has no problem playing the audio sample using a mouse.
>
> I am using Windows 10,, NVDA 2016.1 and Firefox46.1 on a desktop PC.
>
> If List members would like to see the problem for themselves I recommend the
> following url:
> https://fe.bolindadigital.com/wldcs_bol_fo/b2i/productOverview.html?b2bSite=
> 4834&browseItemId=366096&fromPage=1
> It is not necessary to sign in to sample the reading of a title.
>
> Here is a typical audio book display:
>
> --Start of clip -----------------------
> link graphic Railway Viaduct
> embedded object unavailable (this should say "Preview" but doesn't!)
> Link Reserve
> On Loan, Available on 22/05/16
> Link Railway Viaduct
> Link Edward Marston
> Read by Sam Dastor
> Crime & Thriller, Historical Fiction
> eAudiobook - Unabridged
> ---end of clip ------------------
>
> The player for the audio sample is activated by an "embedded object" that is
> flagged by NVDA as "not being available". The BorrowBox help page advises
> that Adobe flash must be active to enable audio sampling of each title. I
> have Adobe flash installed and active. For example, I can play any song in
> YouTube in Firefox without any problem.
>
> After many weeks of failing to play the preview, I found the following
> workaround using NVDA:
>
> >From the top of the web page select eAudio if not already selected. Then
> press "g" to find a book title. If the next   object after pressing
> down-arrow once is "embedded Object" then you have an audio book and we can
> start.
>
> Here is the full sequence of steps:
> 1. Press G for the graphic of the book title;
> 2. Press down-arrow once to the embedded object. You should hear "Embedded
> Object not available";
> 3. Press NVDA + numpad Enter to activate the embedded object. You should
> hear "Embedded Object Unavailable Activate";
> 4. Press right arrow once. You should hear ""Space";
> 5. Press the space bar  to start and stop the sample audio of the narrator
> speaking.
>
> If pressing the space bar does not act as a toggle and the enter key does
> not do the job either:
> 6. Press right arrow once;
> 7. Press space bar or main keyboard enter to play and stop playing the audio
> sample.
>
> Can anyone advise what to do about this?
> A. Is it an NVDA problem?
> B. Is it a Firefox problem?
> c. Is it a BorrowBox problem for the developer Bolinda to see to?
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Cearbhall
>
> m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Disabling the Flash player may or may not solve the problem.  If HTML5 is available from the site, the HTML5 code is usually accessible and will likely allow you to play the audio if the Flash player being used is inaccessible.  But just disabling Flash may keep you from listening to audio you want to hear.  It depends on whether the site in question supports HTML5 at this time.  Many sites do and many don't.  I expect there is a way to make HTML the default choice which would allow the site to give you Flash content if necessary.  If this option is available, it would be a browser setting or would be made available in a plugin.  I don't know enough to comment further.  And it should be pointed out that I've tested with two XP machines and HTML audio doesn't play properly even though it's supposed to.  It appears that HTML5 isn't properly compatible with XP, at least not at this time and it might never be.  I have tested with both Chrome and Firefox with bad results.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Pete

Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 2:03 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] embedded object in Firefox

   I disabled adobe flash player for this vary reason,
   I get warnings about flash player being disabled but the audio still
plays,
   not sure what is actually playing the audio,
   using fire fox 46.0 win 7 64 pro nvda latest.
   Pete


On 5/7/2016 10:06 AM, Cearbhall O'Meadhra wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I found a problem in Firefox when attempting to listen to a sample of an
> audio book in the BorrowBox library system. I don't know if this is an NVDA
> problem or exclusively a Firefox Flash Player issue. or if Bolinda need to
> do something with their Java script. I should mention that the sighted user
> has no problem playing the audio sample using a mouse.
>
> I am using Windows 10,, NVDA 2016.1 and Firefox46.1 on a desktop PC.
>
> If List members would like to see the problem for themselves I recommend the
> following url:
> https://fe.bolindadigital.com/wldcs_bol_fo/b2i/productOverview.html?b2bSite=
> 4834&browseItemId=366096&fromPage=1
> It is not necessary to sign in to sample the reading of a title.
>
> Here is a typical audio book display:
>
> --Start of clip -----------------------
> link graphic Railway Viaduct
> embedded object unavailable (this should say "Preview" but doesn't!)
> Link Reserve
> On Loan, Available on 22/05/16
> Link Railway Viaduct
> Link Edward Marston
> Read by Sam Dastor
> Crime & Thriller, Historical Fiction
> eAudiobook - Unabridged
> ---end of clip ------------------
>
> The player for the audio sample is activated by an "embedded object" that is
> flagged by NVDA as "not being available". The BorrowBox help page advises
> that Adobe flash must be active to enable audio sampling of each title. I
> have Adobe flash installed and active. For example, I can play any song in
> YouTube in Firefox without any problem.
>
> After many weeks of failing to play the preview, I found the following
> workaround using NVDA:
>
> >From the top of the web page select eAudio if not already selected. Then
> press "g" to find a book title. If the next   object after pressing
> down-arrow once is "embedded Object" then you have an audio book and we can
> start.
>
> Here is the full sequence of steps:
> 1. Press G for the graphic of the book title;
> 2. Press down-arrow once to the embedded object. You should hear "Embedded
> Object not available";
> 3. Press NVDA + numpad Enter to activate the embedded object. You should
> hear "Embedded Object Unavailable Activate";
> 4. Press right arrow once. You should hear ""Space";
> 5. Press the space bar  to start and stop the sample audio of the narrator
> speaking.
>
> If pressing the space bar does not act as a toggle and the enter key does
> not do the job either:
> 6. Press right arrow once;
> 7. Press space bar or main keyboard enter to play and stop playing the audio
> sample.
>
> Can anyone advise what to do about this?
> A. Is it an NVDA problem?
> B. Is it a Firefox problem?
> c. Is it a BorrowBox problem for the developer Bolinda to see to?
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Cearbhall
>
> m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

William

The problem is that the screen reader, be it NVDA, Jaws or anything else can only be used to navigate a web page using shortcut keystrokes provided the web page in question is marked up using the html elementse those keystrokes require to move focus around the screen.  The page you are referring to has no heading mark-up which is why the h command will not work  The only available mark-up elements appear to be links and paragraphs which is why only k an p commands work.  These may or may not be useful to you in finding where each newsletter item starts, so you may have to do a lot of line by line reading using the arrow keys to find the bits you want.     

 

Cheers

Chris

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of willmac@...
Sent: 13 May 2016 15:02
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

 

Hi Gene & Brian.

 

First of all in response to an earlier reference from Gene I must state categorically that I am a complete novice as regards NVDA.

I have heard the term "there are more than one way to skin a cat".  Well I am present not able to skin any cat.

I have read thru quite a bit of the short cut keys and they do not react to the way I expect.

 

That is why i submitted my originally URL http://t.digitalnewspaper.co.za/nl/jsp/m.jsp?c=%40fjNSuVTurK7VzhMSOxyzIucXl%2BKsnii1IrXYxuvhTwY%3D which I list again. Gene went to a lot of trouble detailing certain key strokes. However en this led to all sort of results.

I am not all interested in any  k links. If at all possible would it not be possible to give me the simplest method,  At this stage I am only interested in opening the headings and would want the key strokes required to read such articles continuously to the end.  Is this possible?.

 

Regards,

William

 

 

 

------ Original Message ------

From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: 2016/05/12 6:15:20 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

Gene,

           When the format of a given specific webpage is known, and in this case it is known to be nothing more than a list of links to articles, I don't think it's a disservice to anyone who cannot see to state that fact and to tell them that for this particular page using an elements list is the way to go.

           I'm not trying to teach general principles here, but to help someone get through a very specific webpage, and its child pages.

           And, yes, that's my opinion when I have a specific case under discussion, not a "how would one best go about this in the general case of an unfamiliar page."  Even then I'd encourage someone to give the elements list a look to get a quick snapshot regarding what links, headers, or landmarks might or might not be present.  There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Brian
-- 

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts. 

   ~ Henry Rosovsky

    

 

Hi Group,

When I click on a file type that Windows doesn't recognize, I get this fly out business.  It asks me what program I want to use and gives me a somewhat inaccessible GUI type interface.  By routing around with the review type cursor, you can make choices.  I don't know if the fly out reference occurs any other times, but this is where i get it in Window 8.1.

On 5/13/2016 7:16 AM, Gene wrote:

Flyout is a term long before Windows 10.  I don't recall technically what a flyout is but I've seen the term network flyout when I issue an incompatible command to open the connection manager in the System Tray.  I don't know if the term is used in other ways.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 3:58 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Fly Outs?


so I've never come across these before.seems to be just in windows 10. What
are they and how does one interact with them exactly?

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

It sounds as though you are doing better in working with web pages.  That's good. 

 

I'm not sure what you want to do.  If you want to disable the caps lock key so that pressing it does nothing, that is not an NVDA setting.  But you can set NVDA so that the caps lock has to be pressed twice quickly to keep it from turning on or off. 

 

Issue the command insert n.  You can use either insert.

Down arrow to preferences.  Press enter.

Down arrow to keyboard settings.

Press enter.

Tab to the check box that says some thing like use caps lock as modifier.

Press the space bar to check the check box, then press enter.

You are now back where you started.  The dialog has closed.

Now issue the command insert control c to save the setting permanently.  You will hear something like configuration saved.  This will save all your current settings so be sure you haven't changed anything else that you don't want changed permanently. 

 

Gene

 

 

From: willmac@...

Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 9:45 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

 

 

Hi Gene,

 

At last I seem to have gone a stage further. You will not believe the effort I put into this.

 

As far as I can ascertain, I followed your tutorial faithfully.  What I did NOT do was give the keystroke "down arrow" time to work through the various options before it started reading.

 

Thank you for your patience and help.

Regards.

William.

PS. Is there a shortcut key to turn off Caps Lock while using NVDA

 

 

 

 

 

------ Original Message ------

From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: 2016/05/13 6:38:08 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

This is like a very short tutorial.  Trying what I describe may help you understand and work with what we have been discussing.

 

Let's use this very nonstandard web page to get to a much more typical one.  Open the page, make sure you are at the top with the command control home.

Now tab to the first story.  The first news story is:

Solidarity launches class action against GEPF

Follow that link by pressing enter.

You will be taken to the page with the story.  Starting at the top of the page, press h.  That will move you to a heading and as you continue to press it, you will be moved to other headings.  The heading that is the title of the story is where the article begins.  If you start reading from there by down arrowing or by using the read to end command, you will start hearing the article.  If you stop reading and press h two or three more times, you will see a heading that says your next story.  There will be a link to the next story either above or below the heading.  A heading is written using a different format to draw the reader's eye to the text of the heading.  You don't do anything with a heading except read it.  You would expect the link to be below the heading since the heading is not a link.  And if you down arrow, you will find the link.  You may find on some sites, that you have to up arrow, but usually, if the heading is not the link, you would down arrow. 

 

Gene

From: Gene

Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 10:16 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

 

This message is long but I'm not sure the material could have been adequately covered in a shorter message.

 

The site you are discussing is not a typical Internet site. 

First a comment or two about structures in general.  You don't open headings.  You move to them.  You follow links by pressing enter on them.  But the site you are working with has nothing but links.  That is very nonstandard.  Go to the page you asked about.  Either start reading or if you just want to see links on this page, start tabbing.  Follow links by pressing enter.  If you want to learn to work with the commands you are trying to work with, use a conventionally formatted site.  Lots of sites are more or less conventionally formatted.  But this site is so nonstandard that we can tell you how to work with this site but it is not representative of most other sites. 

 

Here is more information. 

 

On the page you gave a link for, most quick navigation keys will only give you messages such as no next heading or no next button, etc.  That's because there are none and wherever you are on the page, there are none below where you are.  The commands such as h move to the next heading below your current position.  On this page, no matter where you are, there are no headings below where you are.  There is nothing anywhere on the page but links and text. 

even at the top of the page moving down the entire page, there are none. 

 

All such commands, b for button, x for check box, etc. look for what they are supposed to look for moving down the page.  If they find what they are looking for, they move you to it.  If they don't find anything, you will stay where you are on the page.

 

I would suggest you get an NVDA tutorial and listen to sections you consider important.  A very well thought of tutorial is available here:

http://www.nvda-kr.org/en/

If you look through the page, you will see how it is organized and you will get an idea of what you want to listen to.  Some people learn better using written material but many people prefer tutorials and if you do, this is a good one.

 

As far as how the keys work in general, I don't know how many sites you've tried them on.  If you go to a more or less standard site, you should get responses from many of the keys. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

From: willmac@...

Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 9:01 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

 

Hi Gene & Brian.

 

First of all in response to an earlier reference from Gene I must state categorically that I am a complete novice as regards NVDA.

I have heard the term "there are more than one way to skin a cat".  Well I am present not able to skin any cat.

I have read thru quite a bit of the short cut keys and they do not react to the way I expect.

 

That is why i submitted my originally URL http://t.digitalnewspaper.co.za/nl/jsp/m.jsp?c=%40fjNSuVTurK7VzhMSOxyzIucXl%2BKsnii1IrXYxuvhTwY%3D which I list again. Gene went to a lot of trouble detailing certain key strokes. However en this led to all sort of results.

I am not all interested in any  k links. If at all possible would it not be possible to give me the simplest method,  At this stage I am only interested in opening the headings and would want the key strokes required to read such articles continuously to the end.  Is this possible?.

 

Regards,

William

 

 

 

------ Original Message ------

From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: 2016/05/12 6:15:20 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

Gene,

           When the format of a given specific webpage is known, and in this case it is known to be nothing more than a list of links to articles, I don't think it's a disservice to anyone who cannot see to state that fact and to tell them that for this particular page using an elements list is the way to go.

           I'm not trying to teach general principles here, but to help someone get through a very specific webpage, and its child pages.

           And, yes, that's my opinion when I have a specific case under discussion, not a "how would one best go about this in the general case of an unfamiliar page."  Even then I'd encourage someone to give the elements list a look to get a quick snapshot regarding what links, headers, or landmarks might or might not be present.  There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Brian
-- 

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts. 

   ~ Henry Rosovsky

    

 

It sounds as though you are doing better in working with web pages.  That's good. 

 

I'm not sure what you want to do.  If you want to disable the caps lock key so that pressing it does nothing, that is not an NVDA setting.  But you can set NVDA so that the caps lock has to be pressed twice quickly to keep it from turning on or off. 

 

Issue the command insert n.  You can use either insert.

Down arrow to preferences.  Press enter.

Down arrow to keyboard settings.

Press enter.

Tab to the check box that says some thing like use caps lock as modifier.

Press the space bar to check the check box, then press enter.

You are now back where you started.  The dialog has closed.

Now issue the command insert control c to save the setting permanently.  You will hear something like configuration saved.  This will save all your current settings so be sure you haven't changed anything else that you don't want changed permanently. 

 

Gene

 

From: willmac@...

Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 9:45 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

 

Hi Gene,

 

At last I seem to have gone a stage further. You will not believe the effort I put into this.

 

As far as I can ascertain, I followed your tutorial faithfully.  What I did NOT do was give the keystroke "down arrow" time to work through the various options before it started reading.

 

Thank you for your patience and help.

Regards.

William.

PS. Is there a shortcut key to turn off Caps Lock while using NVDA

 

 

 

 

 

------ Original Message ------

From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: 2016/05/13 6:38:08 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

This is like a very short tutorial.  Trying what I describe may help you understand and work with what we have been discussing.

 

Let's use this very nonstandard web page to get to a much more typical one.  Open the page, make sure you are at the top with the command control home.

Now tab to the first story.  The first news story is:

Solidarity launches class action against GEPF

Follow that link by pressing enter.

You will be taken to the page with the story.  Starting at the top of the page, press h.  That will move you to a heading and as you continue to press it, you will be moved to other headings.  The heading that is the title of the story is where the article begins.  If you start reading from there by down arrowing or by using the read to end command, you will start hearing the article.  If you stop reading and press h two or three more times, you will see a heading that says your next story.  There will be a link to the next story either above or below the heading.  A heading is written using a different format to draw the reader's eye to the text of the heading.  You don't do anything with a heading except read it.  You would expect the link to be below the heading since the heading is not a link.  And if you down arrow, you will find the link.  You may find on some sites, that you have to up arrow, but usually, if the heading is not the link, you would down arrow. 

 

Gene

From: Gene

Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 10:16 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

This message is long but I'm not sure the material could have been adequately covered in a shorter message.

 

The site you are discussing is not a typical Internet site. 

First a comment or two about structures in general.  You don't open headings.  You move to them.  You follow links by pressing enter on them.  But the site you are working with has nothing but links.  That is very nonstandard.  Go to the page you asked about.  Either start reading or if you just want to see links on this page, start tabbing.  Follow links by pressing enter.  If you want to learn to work with the commands you are trying to work with, use a conventionally formatted site.  Lots of sites are more or less conventionally formatted.  But this site is so nonstandard that we can tell you how to work with this site but it is not representative of most other sites. 

 

Here is more information. 

 

On the page you gave a link for, most quick navigation keys will only give you messages such as no next heading or no next button, etc.  That's because there are none and wherever you are on the page, there are none below where you are.  The commands such as h move to the next heading below your current position.  On this page, no matter where you are, there are no headings below where you are.  There is nothing anywhere on the page but links and text. 

even at the top of the page moving down the entire page, there are none. 

 

All such commands, b for button, x for check box, etc. look for what they are supposed to look for moving down the page.  If they find what they are looking for, they move you to it.  If they don't find anything, you will stay where you are on the page.

 

I would suggest you get an NVDA tutorial and listen to sections you consider important.  A very well thought of tutorial is available here:

http://www.nvda-kr.org/en/

If you look through the page, you will see how it is organized and you will get an idea of what you want to listen to.  Some people learn better using written material but many people prefer tutorials and if you do, this is a good one.

 

As far as how the keys work in general, I don't know how many sites you've tried them on.  If you go to a more or less standard site, you should get responses from many of the keys. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: willmac@...

Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 9:01 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

Hi Gene & Brian.

 

First of all in response to an earlier reference from Gene I must state categorically that I am a complete novice as regards NVDA.

I have heard the term "there are more than one way to skin a cat".  Well I am present not able to skin any cat.

I have read thru quite a bit of the short cut keys and they do not react to the way I expect.

 

That is why i submitted my originally URL http://t.digitalnewspaper.co.za/nl/jsp/m.jsp?c=%40fjNSuVTurK7VzhMSOxyzIucXl%2BKsnii1IrXYxuvhTwY%3D which I list again. Gene went to a lot of trouble detailing certain key strokes. However en this led to all sort of results.

I am not all interested in any  k links. If at all possible would it not be possible to give me the simplest method,  At this stage I am only interested in opening the headings and would want the key strokes required to read such articles continuously to the end.  Is this possible?.

 

Regards,

William

 

 

 

------ Original Message ------

From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: 2016/05/12 6:15:20 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Web Page navigation

Gene,

           When the format of a given specific webpage is known, and in this case it is known to be nothing more than a list of links to articles, I don't think it's a disservice to anyone who cannot see to state that fact and to tell them that for this particular page using an elements list is the way to go.

           I'm not trying to teach general principles here, but to help someone get through a very specific webpage, and its child pages.

           And, yes, that's my opinion when I have a specific case under discussion, not a "how would one best go about this in the general case of an unfamiliar page."  Even then I'd encourage someone to give the elements list a look to get a quick snapshot regarding what links, headers, or landmarks might or might not be present.  There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Brian
-- 

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts. 

   ~ Henry Rosovsky

    

I have a true call device and its files are stored on an sd card. A lot
of the ways to operate this software do not seem to have keyboard
shortcuts, and drag and drop is used here to do what in explorer we
would simply use copy for. Quite why software companies feel the need
toreinvent the wheel has always eluded me.


Another program from the past that had touse drag and drop was a version
of Nero, but I stopped using it when I found some much more intuitive
burners.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?


Technically, I'm not sure why, but drag and drop are difficult for blind
people to work with. I have had to use drag and drop very rarely but
fortunately, there are usually other ways to accomplish tasks and, I
have seldom seen programs that require its use. I have seen some web
sites where something you want to do can't be done without drag and
drop. It appears to me that you can't do drag and drop while in browse
mode or the equivalent for JAWS, the Virtual PC cursor. You might be
able to do it when browse mode is off but that would depend on various
factors and I wouldn't count on it on a lot of pages.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Arianna Sepulveda
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 4:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sighted instructins, was Fly Outsn?


Brian, now you have me curious. When are drag-and-drop operations
typically used? I'm planning on learning those commands for NVDA, but
would like to know when sited people typically use them. Well, not the
NVDA commands, ohbviously, but doing it with the mouse, so that I can
perform their keyboard equivalents. I also have JAWS, and plan to learn
the drag-and-drop keyboard equivalents for that screen reader, as well.




Thanks,
Ari

On May 16, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:


We can all find instances of instructions that are completely unsuited
to a blind or visually-impaired computer user and I understand the
concerns there. The fact is, though, for at least 90% plus of the kinds
of questions I'm routinely seeing on these forums I can find the answer
with a quick web search and the instructions presented are step-by-step
of the open this dialog, click on this option, check the checkbox, hit
OK type. That's what I'm talking about.

I hope that people have noticed that I try my darndest to give "screen
reader terminology focused" instructions when writing for this
audience. At the same time I will continue to make the point that for
instructions that don't use an untranslatable visual component like,
"Click on the purple icon," but instead say something like, "Click on
the Adobe Reader icon," you really should be able to directly translate
this to, "Find, select, and activate the Adobe Reader Icon." Like so
many things, what may be involved in "Find, select, and activate" can
vary wildly depending on how a given user has his or her environment
configured.

Also, just to semi-defend the sighted tech support person who asks,
even after having been told you can't see, "Can you see the blue screen
to your right?," it's very easy to literally forget what you've been
told when you've been working with someone over the phone for a while
and the entire "script" you're used to using has been working, and
generally it will. It's not any sort of malice and, very often, it comes
about as a direct result of the proficiency of the individual asking for
support such that the tech literally forgets during the course of the
interaction that they're dealing with someone who can't see.

It makes perfect sense to remind someone, gently at first but with more
force as they persist in giving instructions that you can't use after
they've been told, that you can't see and that they need to adjust the
instructions accordingly. It's a real challenge at times, particularly
for actions such as "drag and drop" that can be emulated via the
keyboard but that most people, including screen reader users, have no
idea how to do with the keyboard. This happens to be one of those
things that I constantly forget because it can most frequently be worked
around but, on very rare occasions, it can't and I have to figure out
how it's done with the screen reader commands again.

It should come as no surprise, though, that some materials written for
the Graphical User Interface environment will presume that the audience
is actually using the graphical user interface. It's the same kind of
"writing for your intended audience" that I think we all try to do as
much as possible.

Brian
--

Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.
~ Henry Rosovsky

Did I not hear that Apple were going to freeze I tunes on windows soon?
Quite why they cannot make their web site be 'normal' so normal software
can use it is a source of mystery to me.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Lino Morales"
<linomorales001@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 10:12 PM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and tghe new iTunes V 12.4

Has anyone downloaded iTunes V 12.4 yet? I've not cause I'm sill
downloading IOS 9.3.2. If so is NVDA sill freezing sing the iTunes
Store and Apple Muisc?

Has anyone downloaded iTunes V 12.4 yet? I've not cause I'm sill downloading IOS 9.3.2. If so is NVDA sill freezing sing the iTunes Store and Apple Muisc?

Well I had to rejoin the homegroup yesterday, for whatever reason windows 10 kept complaining that it was invalid and then it crashed and I had to restart explorer.
I got round this by turning on all the machines, logging them in then it worked.
I am not sure what machine is the start of the chain but hmmm.



On 16/05/2016 7:41 p.m., Brian's Mail list account wrote:

No I still have severalxp machines on the neetwrk home group called
rather crypticall, Brian, and Ican get into those machines from 10 and 7
no issue its the other way around that is the issue.
Yes there are always are you sure and yes to all etc, but the actual
messages are not beig read in 10, but are in 7 and xp.

Due to the different wording and choices on 10, it can be hard to know
which alert it actually is when you can only hear the options and often
only hear them when doing alt tab to get them in focus.

The issue probably is that this 10 machine belonged to a sighted person
and I have no idea what has been altered, so the first thing I did after
installing nvda was to reset to defaults everthing I could find before
I started, but that does not seem to have protected me against these
issues. should i remove classic shell? I'm not sure whatit is doing for
me other than hiding the silly named searrch field till I want it and
adding a more normal start menu. The problem of grotty ribbon menus
which seem not to contain opetions you need a lot is presumably hard
coded by Microsoft.

I also dislike the new sounds in 10, they are too similar to each other
for my liking.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2016 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 with classic shell again


If you want to be able to access all the computers on your network
without passwords then you should set up a Homegroup (presuming all are
Win7 or later) and/or Workgroup and make sure that all the machines have
joined it. You can then set up your specific sharing of files, folders,
etc., via the Homegroup settings on the individual machines and accounts
on each machine.

All changes as far as search behavior can be tweaked in the Cortana &
Search settings. I long ago turned off "Include web results" because if
I want web results I'll do my own web search, thank you very much. I
want the Windows Search to stick to searching my machine.

You are never going to get away from the OS asking you for confirmation
on certain actions whether you are administrator or not and whether UAC
is active or not. This feature was introduced with Windows 7 because so
many people accidentally wiped out all sorts of stuff unintentionally.
All this does is add the "are you sure?" level of check and you get very
used to it after a short while (and it has saved my bacon on a couple of
occasions over the last decade due to "finger twitch" when I didn't mean
to do anything).

Brian