Date   

Re: Issue with search engine fields and NVDA

Luke Davis
 

This is definitely an NVDA bug.

It isn't effected by Google's search auto-complete function.

If in Firefox, you open google.com, and type into its search field:

this is a t

Then backspace the final T and space, you can use the up and down arrows to navigate the auto completion suggestions or the left and right arrows to navigate the original text.

Try the same thing in a Chromium based browser, and NVDA will be silent. I'm assuming it will be silent; in my alpha version it is making an error beep for each character typed or arrow pressed; and a COMTypes error appears in the NVDA log

I haven't searched GitHub for a bug report about this yet, but, it is one. This is anything but expected behavior.

Luke


Re: Issue with search engine fields and NVDA

Luke Davis
 

Brian Vogel wrote:

Something else struck me odd about this description.

which will read if it's there, or is empty.  Regardless of which it is, when you start entering data that is held in a buffer until you exit the field, at which time any field edits that may be defined are run on what you've entered and then, if they pass, that's what become's that form field's actual value. 
By "field edits", I think you are talking about field validation.

I am sure I am not the only screen reader user who has had the highly annoying experiences of active field validation gone wrong:

* Typing in a field, and hearing the number of characters remaining announced with each character I type.
* Typing in an email address field, and hearing "invalid data!" for each character I type, at least until I get to typing the at sign, or sometimes the first dot after the at sign.

That is javascript field validation, and it is very much live to your action, not applied after the fact.

In fact, I have been trapped in fields with inaccessible field validation, because they expect a certain input, but don't tell the screen reader about it in a way that allows continued editing, thus fubarring the entry attempt, or sometimes the whole form.

So again, my experience doesn't match the model you are describing, and I remain puzzled.

Luke


Re: Issue with search engine fields and NVDA

 

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 07:34 PM, Luke Davis wrote:
But Gene has said this does not happen in Firefox. Doesn't that, by definition, make it a browser specific problem to Chromium?
-
Luke,

It does occur in other form filling contexts outside of a web browser so, by my definition, it's not a browser-specific problem, but happens more widely.

I would need a far more precise description of what, precisely, is occurring or not occurring before I can make any more specific determination.

And I've said, on many occasions, that all accessibility involves workarounds.  There are many times when accessibility by substitution for vision is just not even close to what it is when vision is involved, and for a multitude of reasons.

I gave a suggestion for a workaround based on available information, and on what I know.  There may, or may not, be a problem here, but I am not certain there is.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: Issue with search engine fields and NVDA

Luke Davis
 

Brian Vogel wrote:

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 05:41 PM, Gene wrote:
This is a known problem with certain browsers. 
-Gene, just FYI, this is not a browser specific problem,
But Gene has said this does not happen in Firefox. Doesn't that, by definition, make it a browser specific problem to Chromium?

but happens with fillable form fields even in things like Word.
The fact that it may also happen in Word, makes it also a word problem, but does not make it any less browser specific when it is happening in a browser.

the simple way to put it is that when you land in one it either has a preset default value, which will read if it's there, or is empty.  Regardless of which it is, when you start entering data that is held in a buffer until you exit the field, at which time any field edits that may be defined are run on what you've entered and then, if they pass, that's what become's that form field's actual value.  During the data entry stage the field has either that default value, or is empty, and you're typing into a buffer that eventually gets dumped into the field
That is tricky to reconcile with, for example, the GitHub text entry field. Or really any web form input or textarea element, where you can actively edit your content, including content that was already there before you started typing.

The common experience for web forms, is that when you enter a field, you can both review and edit your content, along with any content that was there before you started editing. Otherwise spelling errors indicated by the screen reader would be rather difficult to edit; any web based text editors would be a non-starter, among other things that would break if you couldn't accurately work with text that pre-existed in form fields.

Am I misunderstanding the core problem here? I thought the O.P. indicated a difficulty in reviewing content typed into a webform. That is definitely _NOT_ the expected experience in any browser, and if it's happening it is an error.
It may be an error of the coding of the website, or it may be an error in the textInfos handling of NVDA, but it is some kind of error, and is not, on the surface, to be expected.

Luke


Re: Issue with search engine fields and NVDA

 

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 05:43 PM, Gene wrote:
The question arises whose responsibility correcting the problem is.
-
It is very difficult to say whether this is something that can be corrected or not.  It's entirely context and processing specific.

Where it occurs, the workaround is simple and obvious.

The ability to pre-populate before entry and on-exit run edits on a fillable field are, from a practical perspective, far more important to almost anyone than the ability to read while in the first-time-through entry process.  Tab out and back in when you must do this, as I doubt it is ever going to change.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: Issue with search engine fields and NVDA

 

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 05:41 PM, Gene wrote:
This is a known problem with certain browsers. 
-
Gene, just FYI, this is not a browser specific problem, but happens with fillable form fields even in things like Word.

Trying to explain exactly why this occurs tends to make people's eyes glaze over or worse.  But the simple way to put it is that when you land in one it either has a preset default value, which will read if it's there, or is empty.  Regardless of which it is, when you start entering data that is held in a buffer until you exit the field, at which time any field edits that may be defined are run on what you've entered and then, if they pass, that's what become's that form field's actual value.  During the data entry stage the field has either that default value, or is empty, and you're typing into a buffer that eventually gets dumped into the field on exit but isn't there until you try to exit.

If you have edits on the field (and there may be none) that fail when exit from the field is attempted you're thrown right back in to it, but that "invalid value" has now officially replaced your default/blank prior value and is what will be read.

This same sort of behavior is seen in MS-Word fillable forms and, I believe, PDF fillable forms (but I'm not certain about that).  I try to let people know that if they're using an MS-Word fillable form, and they want to review the content they've just filled in in its entirety, they need to exit that form field to set the value they've typed as the actual field contents and then jump back into it again so they can be read.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: Issue with search engine fields and NVDA

Gene
 

According to your message, this is the Schrödinger's cat of browsers.☺


Gene

On 2/28/2022 4:43 PM, Gene via groups.io wrote:

Is this a bug in either Chrome-based browsers or NVDA?  the problem doesn't occur using Firefox.  The question arises whose responsibility correcting the problem is.


Gene

On 2/28/2022 4:41 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Dimitrios,

I suspect this is another variant of issues with fillable form fields in general.  In many instances, until a fill-in is complete, a form field is in a sort of limbo state.  The contents of the filed itself have not been "finalized" so they're not exposed to a screen reader because, in effect, based on how fillable form fields work there's "nothing there yet" until and unless you tab out of the field, at which point the current value gets fully set, and is what is exposed to the screen reader if you go back into the field again.

Try tabbing out of the field, then shift tabbing back into it, and see if you don't suddenly have the text being read as you expect it should.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: Issue with search engine fields and NVDA

Gene
 

Is this a bug in either Chrome-based browsers or NVDA?  the problem doesn't occur using Firefox.  The question arises whose responsibility correcting the problem is.


Gene

On 2/28/2022 4:41 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Dimitrios,

I suspect this is another variant of issues with fillable form fields in general.  In many instances, until a fill-in is complete, a form field is in a sort of limbo state.  The contents of the filed itself have not been "finalized" so they're not exposed to a screen reader because, in effect, based on how fillable form fields work there's "nothing there yet" until and unless you tab out of the field, at which point the current value gets fully set, and is what is exposed to the screen reader if you go back into the field again.

Try tabbing out of the field, then shift tabbing back into it, and see if you don't suddenly have the text being read as you expect it should.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: Issue with search engine fields and NVDA

 

Dimitrios,

I suspect this is another variant of issues with fillable form fields in general.  In many instances, until a fill-in is complete, a form field is in a sort of limbo state.  The contents of the filed itself have not been "finalized" so they're not exposed to a screen reader because, in effect, based on how fillable form fields work there's "nothing there yet" until and unless you tab out of the field, at which point the current value gets fully set, and is what is exposed to the screen reader if you go back into the field again.

Try tabbing out of the field, then shift tabbing back into it, and see if you don't suddenly have the text being read as you expect it should.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: Issue with search engine fields and NVDA

Gene
 

This is a known problem with certain browsers.  I suspect it is a problem with Chrome-based browsers.  The workaround is very easy.  I don't know the way you open the menu since you aren't using an English version of Edge.  But however you do it, do so.  Then close it with escape.  Now, you will be able to edit what is in the fields as usual.  Leaving the field and returning causes editing to work properly. 


You can also move out of the program, such as go to the desktop and then return to the program but I would imagine opening and closing the menu is faster and a bit more simple.


Gene

On 2/28/2022 4:26 PM, Dimitrios Tsakiridis wrote:

Hello every one, and good morning from Greece:

 

I have a problem, when I visit Youtube web page, and Google web page.

I have Windows 10 home edition, and I use Microsoft Edge browser.

I have the latest version of NVDA, and I use Acapela voice Dimitris Greek voice.

I have also Vocalizer, Melina greek voice.

When I try to search something, I wright my words, but if I delete a character, and if I press up and down arrows, I can not reed something, and NVDA does not announce anything.

I believe that it cause about automatic complete form.

How I can to solve this problem?

 

Best regards, Dimitrios Tsakiridis.

 

Στάλθηκε από την Αλληλογραφία για τα Windows

 


Issue with search engine fields and NVDA

Dimitrios Tsakiridis
 

Hello every one, and good morning from Greece:

 

I have a problem, when I visit Youtube web page, and Google web page.

I have Windows 10 home edition, and I use Microsoft Edge browser.

I have the latest version of NVDA, and I use Acapela voice Dimitris Greek voice.

I have also Vocalizer, Melina greek voice.

When I try to search something, I wright my words, but if I delete a character, and if I press up and down arrows, I can not reed something, and NVDA does not announce anything.

I believe that it cause about automatic complete form.

How I can to solve this problem?

 

Best regards, Dimitrios Tsakiridis.

 

Στάλθηκε από την Αλληλογραφία για τα Windows

 


Re: Accessing a Control on a webpage that is only available after hovering

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi Luke


is a mouse over link like they have when you say go to sign out of netflix?


So for a example pressing the space bar or enter key does not do any thing.

It might expand the menu then close it.


If it is the same routing the mouse to that menu then leaving it a second or 2 brings up a menu which then you can arrow though.


Some I have seen like that some times you need to change into focus mode to see the menu then tab through it but guess you would of tried these already.



Is thee a external mouse over link you can point us to?



Gene nz

On 1/03/2022 9:23 am, Luke Davis wrote:
Luke Robinett wrote:

Imagine you’ve got a table of different items and you want to delete one of them. The instructions for this particular page say to hover over the checkbox of that item which will reveal three dots. Clicking on these three dots will give you the option to remove the item. The checkbox itself is accessible, but how do I invoke a mouse hover and subsequently access the resulting drop-down menu using NVDA and the keyboard?
I had something similar on GetResponse a few years ago.

I vaguely remember that I found some fiddly way to get there with object nav, but I don't think it was even half reliable.
The method I used most, and in truth this was one of the main reasons I gave up on GetResponse after a couple months, was this:

* Navigate to the invoking element (in your case a checkbox).
* Route the virtual mouse there.
* Use the actual mouse (a touchpad in my case), to very carefully move to the right, until some part of the button I wanted was spoken.
* Click with the actual mouse.

Things that are factors:
* Your mouse pointer speech granularity should probably be set to word.
* Your mouse sounds should be on, so that you can make sure audibly that you are maintaining a straight horizontal path.
* I forget whether I had to do this in focus mode, or if it worked in browse mode.

Alternative to the regular mouse, you might use Microsoft's Mouse Keys accessibility option. It's been a while since I did that though, so I forget how it interacts with NVDA.

Good luck!

Luke




Re: Accessing a Control on a webpage that is only available after hovering

Luke Davis
 

Luke Robinett wrote:

Imagine you’ve got a table of different items and you want to delete one of them. The instructions for this particular page say to hover over the checkbox of that item which will reveal three dots. Clicking on these three dots will give you the option to remove the item. The checkbox itself is accessible, but how do I invoke a mouse hover and subsequently access the resulting drop-down menu using NVDA and the keyboard?
I had something similar on GetResponse a few years ago.

I vaguely remember that I found some fiddly way to get there with object nav, but I don't think it was even half reliable.
The method I used most, and in truth this was one of the main reasons I gave up on GetResponse after a couple months, was this:

* Navigate to the invoking element (in your case a checkbox).
* Route the virtual mouse there.
* Use the actual mouse (a touchpad in my case), to very carefully move to the right, until some part of the button I wanted was spoken.
* Click with the actual mouse.

Things that are factors:
* Your mouse pointer speech granularity should probably be set to word.
* Your mouse sounds should be on, so that you can make sure audibly that you are maintaining a straight horizontal path.
* I forget whether I had to do this in focus mode, or if it worked in browse mode.

Alternative to the regular mouse, you might use Microsoft's Mouse Keys accessibility option. It's been a while since I did that though, so I forget how it interacts with NVDA.

Good luck!

Luke


Re: Accessing a Control on a webpage that is only available after hovering

Gene
 

I've almost never dealt with such a situation but I know they exist.  If you can move the virtual mouse to the check box, and often I find the virtual mouse can't be moved to the right place on web pages for some reason, then I would look around and see if anything relevant is on the page.  If the mouse is in the right place, you can look around in the usual ways and not disturb the mouse.  Maybe you will find something.


Gene

On 2/28/2022 1:01 PM, Luke Robinett wrote:
FYI, this question applies to a work related web app so I can’t provide a URL that anybody here would be able to access. I will try to describe this as best I can and hopefully help can still be provided.

Imagine you’ve got a table of different items and you want to delete one of them. The instructions for this particular page say to hover over the checkbox of that item which will reveal three dots. Clicking on these three dots will give you the option to remove the item. The checkbox itself is accessible, but how do I invoke a mouse hover and subsequently access the resulting drop-down menu using NVDA and the keyboard?

I have tried routing the mouse pointer to the checkbox but obviously invoking a click at this point just toggles the checkbox. I’ve also tried NVDA OCR but didn’t get anything other than the expected text of the checkbox itself.

Of course this is a terribly poor design from an accessibility standpoint but I’d like to see if there’s someway I can achieve this before I approach the developer. We all know it can be hard to get anyone’s attention, let alone actually get something like this resolved.

Thanks and let me know if I can add more details that would be helpful

Luke



.


Re: Accessing a Control on a webpage that is only available after hovering

Jackie
 

Luke, unfortunately, this is pretty problematic. I tend to use
shift+backspace & NVDA+backspace in combination. Sometimes bringing
focus to bear on the control expands the menu. Sometimes left- (or
more commonly, right) clicking the object using NVDA's mouse keys +
object navigation also helps. But much depends on how the developer
implemented this particular control. & sometimes the expanded menu
actually appears in a different place, ie, the bottom of the screen,
than the object. Much, unfortunately, is really dependent on the
control in question.

Good luck.

On 2/28/22, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
If anyone can point me to a webpage that can be generally accessed where
this technique is used, I might be able to figure out how to to it.

I understand exactly what it is you're asking, Luke, but this is an instance
where, at least for me, trial and error would be required to figure out the
actual solution if such can be found.  There's got to be something,
somewhere else, that does this.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my
responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
~ Commenter, *Evangelos* , in comments for
America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities (
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/08/opinion/spotify-joe-rogan-covid-free-speech.html
) ,
New York Times , February 8, 2022





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Re: Accessing a Control on a webpage that is only available after hovering

 

If anyone can point me to a webpage that can be generally accessed where this technique is used, I might be able to figure out how to to it.

I understand exactly what it is you're asking, Luke, but this is an instance where, at least for me, trial and error would be required to figure out the actual solution if such can be found.  There's got to be something, somewhere else, that does this.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Accessing a Control on a webpage that is only available after hovering

Luke Robinett
 

FYI, this question applies to a work related web app so I can’t provide a URL that anybody here would be able to access. I will try to describe this as best I can and hopefully help can still be provided.

Imagine you’ve got a table of different items and you want to delete one of them. The instructions for this particular page say to hover over the checkbox of that item which will reveal three dots. Clicking on these three dots will give you the option to remove the item. The checkbox itself is accessible, but how do I invoke a mouse hover and subsequently access the resulting drop-down menu using NVDA and the keyboard?

I have tried routing the mouse pointer to the checkbox but obviously invoking a click at this point just toggles the checkbox. I’ve also tried NVDA OCR but didn’t get anything other than the expected text of the checkbox itself.

Of course this is a terribly poor design from an accessibility standpoint but I’d like to see if there’s someway I can achieve this before I approach the developer. We all know it can be hard to get anyone’s attention, let alone actually get something like this resolved.

Thanks and let me know if I can add more details that would be helpful

Luke


Re: New Vocalizer voices for NVDA

 

For those interested in Vocalizer voices, first read:  https://www.tiflotecnia.net/en/ 

Then possibly have a have a look at:  https://www.tiflotecnia.net/en/downloads.htm, depending on the course of action you've chosen based on the first page above.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: passwords in Thunderbird

 

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 11:20 AM, The Gamages wrote:
but will not continue on this list for this subject as per your request.
-
Thank you, as the issue has no connection to NVDA, per se.  There are lots, including myself, willing to "dig deep" on this, but just not here, where it is off-topic.

This is a question on Thunderbird and email authentication protocols, not NVDA, at least not in any meaningful sense.  The answers would be the same regardless of the screen reader being used.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: passwords in Thunderbird

The Gamages
 

Hello Brian,


Out of courtesy I thank you for all that information, but will not continue on this list for this subject as per your request.


Best Regards, Jim.



On 28/02/2022 15:26, Brian Vogel wrote:
This is not really an NVDA question, but an email accounts management question that is screen reader agnostic.  I'm going to answer it here, to the best of my ability given the variables involved, and ask that further discussion be moved to the Chat Subgroup.

The use of passwords "as passwords that the client sends each time you log in" for email account access is becoming less and less common.  As but one example, Gmail uses OAUTH verification, so Thunderbird does not even have a password that you can change.  If you look in the Tools Menu, Account Settings [ALT + T, S] and the account is a Gmail account, then look in the Server Settings tab for that specific account, the Security Settings section will show OAuth2 as the Authentication Method.  You can't change a password here like you used to.  If you so happen to change your password online in your Google account, the next time a login is attempted by Thunderbird you will be led through the standard OAuth setup procedure like you were the first time you set up the account so that it can set up the encrypted credential that actually gets used.

The dropdown list of Authentication Methods includes:  Normal Password, Encrypted Password, Kerberos/GSSAPI, NTLM, TLS Certificate, OAuth2

You are going to see fewer and fewer accounts with either type of password setting, and by now there should be virtually none in existence that use a "normal password" which is sent unencrypted to the server where any "sniffer" could snag it.

Email security has become very complicated indeed, and what you do to change getting logged in to a given email server directly depends on the authentication method that email server uses.

I would have to imagine that if your email provider is using either password method, then one of the two password authentication options would be showing in the authentication method box and a button or link of some kind that would allow you to update the password would be present.  I have no accounts that still use password authentication on which to test.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 

-- 

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