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Re: NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?

Quentin Christensen
 

Fair point, and I didn't intend to imply that we expect end users reporting issues to be able to know how NVDA processes different things.  In this case, however, I had specifically provided a good amount of information to the list about why the behaviour, in terms of decorative images, was as it was, and illustrated the need for defining when it should be read or not.  The examples given were in completely different contexts:

- Announcement of "figure" on web pages specifically.
- Announcement of "decorative images" in Word specifically.
- Reporting of shapes such as as right pointing triangle (in what context?  I have no way of knowing, and I'm not even sure what kind of shapes we're talking about here.  This is where an example is really useful - tell me how to insert such a shape in my word document, or give me a URL of a web page which has such a shape on it for instance.

It is fantastic to have people reporting images, but it is equally important to have those issues described as clearly as possible.  After all, if the core NVDA developers had experienced the issue you are experiencing and been frustrated by it as well.... it would likely already have been written up.  So assume the people reading the issue you write up, either haven't experienced the problem (and this is where including version numbers are important - maybe it's only an issue on a certain version of Office, or Windows, or a particular build of Office ON a certain build of Windows) - or maybe the person reading the issue likes the way it is, in which case, it's important to be clear on why it is a problem for you.


On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 10:44 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 06:32 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
No comment on the validity of your complaint - but can you please create one issue for each problem.  If a change was to be made to how NVDA handled decorative images, it would be technically different from how it deals with figures for instance.
-
Quentin,

Now having read the ticket, I have to say that I am disappointed that it has been closed as "too vague."

The folks who read GitHub issues created by end users will very often have to break these out into separate issues when that's thought necessary.

The line in that ticket that says, "this sort of material should be off by default. users advanced enough will learn about turning announcements on they want" clearly indicates that for "that sort of material" the announcement of same should be toggle-able by the end user, and that the default state would be preferred to be "off" by the person reporting it.

A concise list of examples of "this sort of material" was provided.  It may not necesarily be exhaustive, but it is clear.

Even if I had created this issue, I have no way of knowing which among these things may be handled by one module of NVDA versus another, and no end user should be expected to.

The actual issue is clear, and the desired outcome is equally clear:  Make the announcement of the items listed as examples, plus related ones that may not be in that list that the programmers should recognize, toggle-able by the end user and make the default toggle for announcement be off.

It is a grave mistake to expect those reporting issues to do so as though they are developers.  That's not their job, and it never should be.  It was a clear issue statement, with examples, and the desired solution/outcome pretty clearly stated as well.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
Re: NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?

Brian Vogel
 

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 06:32 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
No comment on the validity of your complaint - but can you please create one issue for each problem.  If a change was to be made to how NVDA handled decorative images, it would be technically different from how it deals with figures for instance.
-
Quentin,

Now having read the ticket, I have to say that I am disappointed that it has been closed as "too vague."

The folks who read GitHub issues created by end users will very often have to break these out into separate issues when that's thought necessary.

The line in that ticket that says, "this sort of material should be off by default. users advanced enough will learn about turning announcements on they want" clearly indicates that for "that sort of material" the announcement of same should be toggle-able by the end user, and that the default state would be preferred to be "off" by the person reporting it.

A concise list of examples of "this sort of material" was provided.  It may not necesarily be exhaustive, but it is clear.

Even if I had created this issue, I have no way of knowing which among these things may be handled by one module of NVDA versus another, and no end user should be expected to.

The actual issue is clear, and the desired outcome is equally clear:  Make the announcement of the items listed as examples, plus related ones that may not be in that list that the programmers should recognize, toggle-able by the end user and make the default toggle for announcement be off.

It is a grave mistake to expect those reporting issues to do so as though they are developers.  That's not their job, and it never should be.  It was a clear issue statement, with examples, and the desired solution/outcome pretty clearly stated as well.
Re: A Github ticket on too much attribute-like material being announced on web pages

Quentin Christensen
 

100% Brian,

If I see a complaint about something here, and it is well defined and I can replicate it and feel I understand the issue, I am happy to write up an issue if someone is not confident doing it.  I do encourage people to write up issues themselves because aside from anything else, it means they will be notified when someone comments asking for more information or when a fix is merged.

It is important however, when writing up an issue, to be clear on what the problem is, provide specific steps to reproduce it.  If it's a problem in Word for instance, assume I've never used it - tell me exactly what to press to experience the issue for myself.  In this case, the issue was extremely vague (Too much unnecessary information announced by default) and the specific issues mentioned (decorative images, reporting of shapes and figures) are different from each other.

Make sure issues are specific, because the fix for it will almost certainly need to be written for each particular issue.

Kind regards

Quentin

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 2:28 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
An editorial comment, and a positive one:  This is exactly what needs to be done when issues like this occur.  This would not be a bug report, per se (though it could potentially be logged as such), but is more of a feature request to be able to control what is and is not announced.

But regardless of how it's been logged (and I haven't looked) the creation of a GitHub ticket is what puts an issue "in for official review."  And, as you've noted, one of the metrics with regard to how much attention it gets, and where the fix (if any) gets prioritized, is based on user feedback in the form of comments in support of the ticket.

So if you're someone who feels that the types of graphics (and probably other bits) discussed in the topic, NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?, need to be under end user control as far as whether you hear about their presence or not, take a look at the GitHub issue and comment.

Never presume that comments on this group mean anything as far as NVDA development goes, as we are not "an official communication mechanism" to NVDA developers.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
Re: NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?

Quentin Christensen
 

Gene,

No comment on the validity of your complaint - but can you please create one issue for each problem.  If a change was to be made to how NVDA handled decorative images, it would be technically different from how it deals with figures for instance.  Also, saying "it reads too much" describes your frustration with it, but not how it could be improved.  In the case of decorative images, I actually started to write up an issue, but then as I noted in my reply on this thread, the behaviour IS actually basically what Microsoft describe they want.  So while there might be ways of improving the presentation to users, in fact it is not immediately clear what is being done incorrectly here, which is why I passed it back to Sylvie (or you, or anyone) to create an issue which describes the issue and the solution.  On the web, where a page is read only, it might be fine to completely ignore decorative images, but in Word, a way would need to be distinguished to determine when you were reading the page as a user consuming the content, and when you were trying to edit the page to maybe alter those decorative images, for instance.

Quentin.

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:52 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

I have submitted a Github  ticket on the issue of too much unnecessary information such as this being spoken by default.  I discuss the announcement of all sorts of shapes appearing for emphasis or decoration on web pages and perhaps elsewhere, and announcement of figure, and of emphasis.


Those interested may read and comment on the issue here:

https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/13407


If people are annoyed by this behavior and don't complain in comments to this issue, it is far less likely any change will occur.  I doubt it will unless there is a good deal of complaint.


Gene

On 3/1/2022 7:17 AM, Sylvie Duchateau wrote:

Hello Quentin and all,

Thank you for your explanations.

I was confused because in HTML, decorative images are marked as such, with empty alt attribute so that they are fully ignored by screen readers.

In the case of my document, each tool that is described has a screen shot from the tool which is spoken as decorative image by NVDA.

The document contains more than 20 tools and I think it is disturbing and noisy to hear decorative image, decorative image and so on…

It takes more time to read the document when it is full of decorative images.

So may be it is worth writing a ticket so that users can have the choice between hearing nothing and hearing the text “decorative image”.

It would be interesting to hear what other users prefer.

Best

Sylvie

De : nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> De la part de Quentin Christensen via groups.io
Envoyé : mardi 1 mars 2022 11:04
À : nvda@nvda.groups.io
Objet : Re: [nvda] NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?

 

Sylvie,

 

It would be worth writing an issue for this with your proposed outcome (possibly ignoring such images when using say all?)

 

Note that reading Microsoft documentation on alt text says:

 

"

Mark visuals as decorative
If your visuals are purely decorative and add visual interest but aren't informative, you can mark them as such without needing to write any alt text. Examples of objects that should be marked as decorative are stylistic borders. People using screen readers will hear that these objects are decorative so they know they aren’t missing any important information. You can mark your visuals as decorative in Excel, PowerPoint, and Word.

"

Which clearly indicates that my screen reader will report that the image exists but that it is decorative.  This does basically fit with the current implementation.

 

(I'm not arguing either way there, just sharing that info I found when looking into this for you).

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 7:35 PM Sylvie Duchateau <sduchateau@...> wrote:

Hello,

We have been working on a word document using decorative images to illustrate different items.

The images do not bring anything and have been marked as decorative images in the word document.

Note that the MS Word accessibility checker did not find any errors.

Nevertheless, NVDA still reads the images, saying graphic and does not ignore them.

AS tagging an image as decorative should allow screen readers to ignore the image, do you know of an issue for screen readers to vocalize graphics that are tagged as decorative ?

We use Office 365.

Thank you in advance

Best

Sylvie


 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
Re: Issue with search engine fields and NVDA

Sarah k Alawami
 

I just deal with it is all. I know it will get fixed now, so that’s good.

 

Happy Tuesday all.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2022 8:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Issue with search engine fields and NVDA

 

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 10:56 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

this has been an issue with chrome, not nvda, now since sometime last year.

-
Interesting (and I'm not doubting you, or anyone else, based on what's been discussed here).  I'm actually surprised that a broader hue and cry did not go up about this much earlier, and louder, than it has.  I don't recall a single peep about this prior to this topic.

It would certainly drive me to use Firefox to the maximum extent possible in the interim.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 
Re: Issue with search engine fields and NVDA

Brian Vogel
 

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 10:56 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
this has been an issue with chrome, not nvda, now since sometime last year.
-
Interesting (and I'm not doubting you, or anyone else, based on what's been discussed here).  I'm actually surprised that a broader hue and cry did not go up about this much earlier, and louder, than it has.  I don't recall a single peep about this prior to this topic.

It would certainly drive me to use Firefox to the maximum extent possible in the interim.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 
Re: Issue with search engine fields and NVDA

Sarah k Alawami
 

Hey, that’s good news to hear. I use brave, so let’s hope this will filter to brave when ever they get it updated.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nikos Demetriou via groups.io
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2022 10:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Issue with search engine fields and NVDA

 

Hello Dimitri.

This is a chrome problem which affected Edge as well, because both programs use the same engin to represent the website.

 

It is already fixed in chrome canary, and it will eventually fixed in the next stable versions of chrome and Edge.

Nikos

 

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 00:26, Dimitrios Tsakiridis <dtsak27@...> wrote:

Hello every one, and good morning from Greece:

 

I have a problem, when I visit Youtube web page, and Google web page.

I have Windows 10 home edition, and I use Microsoft Edge browser.

I have the latest version of NVDA, and I use Acapela voice Dimitris Greek voice.

I have also Vocalizer, Melina greek voice.

When I try to search something, I wright my words, but if I delete a character, and if I press up and down arrows, I can not reed something, and NVDA does not announce anything.

I believe that it cause about automatic complete form.

How I can to solve this problem?

 

Best regards, Dimitrios Tsakiridis.

 

Στάλθηκε από την Αλληλογραφία για τα Windows

 
Re: Issue with search engine fields and NVDA

Sarah k Alawami
 

Yep, this has been an issue with chrome, not nvda, now since sometime last year. This is on chrome to fix. I really hope they do, as this is starting to make me pull my hair out, a lot.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dimitrios Tsakiridis
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2022 2:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] a problem about wrighting

 

Hello every one, and good morning from Greece:

 

I have a problem, when I visit Youtube web page, and Google web page.

I have Windows 10 home edition, and I use Microsoft Edge browser.

I have the latest version of NVDA, and I use Acapela voice Dimitris Greek voice.

I have also Vocalizer, Melina greek voice.

When I try to search something, I wright my words, but if I delete a character, and if I press up and down arrows, I can not reed something, and NVDA does not announce anything.

I believe that it cause about automatic complete form.

How I can to solve this problem?

 

Best regards, Dimitrios Tsakiridis.

 

Στάλθηκε από την Αλληλογραφία για τα Windows

 
Re: A Github ticket on too much attribute-like material being announced on web pages

Brian Vogel
 

An editorial comment, and a positive one:  This is exactly what needs to be done when issues like this occur.  This would not be a bug report, per se (though it could potentially be logged as such), but is more of a feature request to be able to control what is and is not announced.

But regardless of how it's been logged (and I haven't looked) the creation of a GitHub ticket is what puts an issue "in for official review."  And, as you've noted, one of the metrics with regard to how much attention it gets, and where the fix (if any) gets prioritized, is based on user feedback in the form of comments in support of the ticket.

So if you're someone who feels that the types of graphics (and probably other bits) discussed in the topic, NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?, need to be under end user control as far as whether you hear about their presence or not, take a look at the GitHub issue and comment.

Never presume that comments on this group mean anything as far as NVDA development goes, as we are not "an official communication mechanism" to NVDA developers.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 
A Github ticket on too much attribute-like material being announced on web pages

Gene
 

I am sending this announcement here and in the thread where the issue arose so those not following that thread may see it.


I have submitted a Github  ticket on the issue of too much unnecessary information being spoken by default.  on web pages and perhaps elsewhere.  I discuss the announcement of all sorts of shapes appearing for emphasis or decoration on web pages and perhaps elsewhere, and announcement of figure, and of emphasis.


Those interested may read and comment on the issue here:

https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/13407


If people are annoyed by this behavior and don't complain in comments to this issue, it is far less likely any change will occur.  I doubt it will unless there is a good deal of complaint.


Gene
Re: NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?

Gene
 

I have submitted a Github  ticket on the issue of too much unnecessary information such as this being spoken by default.  I discuss the announcement of all sorts of shapes appearing for emphasis or decoration on web pages and perhaps elsewhere, and announcement of figure, and of emphasis.


Those interested may read and comment on the issue here:

https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/13407


If people are annoyed by this behavior and don't complain in comments to this issue, it is far less likely any change will occur.  I doubt it will unless there is a good deal of complaint.


Gene

On 3/1/2022 7:17 AM, Sylvie Duchateau wrote:

Hello Quentin and all,

Thank you for your explanations.

I was confused because in HTML, decorative images are marked as such, with empty alt attribute so that they are fully ignored by screen readers.

In the case of my document, each tool that is described has a screen shot from the tool which is spoken as decorative image by NVDA.

The document contains more than 20 tools and I think it is disturbing and noisy to hear decorative image, decorative image and so on…

It takes more time to read the document when it is full of decorative images.

So may be it is worth writing a ticket so that users can have the choice between hearing nothing and hearing the text “decorative image”.

It would be interesting to hear what other users prefer.

Best

Sylvie

De : nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> De la part de Quentin Christensen via groups.io
Envoyé : mardi 1 mars 2022 11:04
À : nvda@nvda.groups.io
Objet : Re: [nvda] NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?

 

Sylvie,

 

It would be worth writing an issue for this with your proposed outcome (possibly ignoring such images when using say all?)

 

Note that reading Microsoft documentation on alt text says:

 

"

Mark visuals as decorative
If your visuals are purely decorative and add visual interest but aren't informative, you can mark them as such without needing to write any alt text. Examples of objects that should be marked as decorative are stylistic borders. People using screen readers will hear that these objects are decorative so they know they aren’t missing any important information. You can mark your visuals as decorative in Excel, PowerPoint, and Word.

"

Which clearly indicates that my screen reader will report that the image exists but that it is decorative.  This does basically fit with the current implementation.

 

(I'm not arguing either way there, just sharing that info I found when looking into this for you).

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 7:35 PM Sylvie Duchateau <sduchateau@...> wrote:

Hello,

We have been working on a word document using decorative images to illustrate different items.

The images do not bring anything and have been marked as decorative images in the word document.

Note that the MS Word accessibility checker did not find any errors.

Nevertheless, NVDA still reads the images, saying graphic and does not ignore them.

AS tagging an image as decorative should allow screen readers to ignore the image, do you know of an issue for screen readers to vocalize graphics that are tagged as decorative ?

We use Office 365.

Thank you in advance

Best

Sylvie


 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 
locked Re: win 7?

Brian Vogel
 

I am now locking this topic because, other than what was already known about NVDA and ongoing support under Windows 7, nothing else is about NVDA.

It is also, in my opinion, long past time that people stop obsessing about Windows 7 support.  If you use Windows, or any operating system, the only sane thing to do is to use an in-support version.  Windows 7 is no longer in support by Microsoft.  That is enough to make transitioning to Windows 10 or 11 (Windows 8.1 dies next year) a necessity, not an option.  And the ability to upgrade from 7 to 10 remains both free and viable.  Do so.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 
Re: NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?

Sylvie Duchateau
 

Hello Quentin and all,

Thank you for your explanations.

I was confused because in HTML, decorative images are marked as such, with empty alt attribute so that they are fully ignored by screen readers.

In the case of my document, each tool that is described has a screen shot from the tool which is spoken as decorative image by NVDA.

The document contains more than 20 tools and I think it is disturbing and noisy to hear decorative image, decorative image and so on…

It takes more time to read the document when it is full of decorative images.

So may be it is worth writing a ticket so that users can have the choice between hearing nothing and hearing the text “decorative image”.

It would be interesting to hear what other users prefer.

Best

Sylvie

De : nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> De la part de Quentin Christensen via groups.io
Envoyé : mardi 1 mars 2022 11:04
À : nvda@nvda.groups.io
Objet : Re: [nvda] NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?

 

Sylvie,

 

It would be worth writing an issue for this with your proposed outcome (possibly ignoring such images when using say all?)

 

Note that reading Microsoft documentation on alt text says:

 

"

Mark visuals as decorative
If your visuals are purely decorative and add visual interest but aren't informative, you can mark them as such without needing to write any alt text. Examples of objects that should be marked as decorative are stylistic borders. People using screen readers will hear that these objects are decorative so they know they aren’t missing any important information. You can mark your visuals as decorative in Excel, PowerPoint, and Word.

"

Which clearly indicates that my screen reader will report that the image exists but that it is decorative.  This does basically fit with the current implementation.

 

(I'm not arguing either way there, just sharing that info I found when looking into this for you).

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 7:35 PM Sylvie Duchateau <sduchateau@...> wrote:

Hello,

We have been working on a word document using decorative images to illustrate different items.

The images do not bring anything and have been marked as decorative images in the word document.

Note that the MS Word accessibility checker did not find any errors.

Nevertheless, NVDA still reads the images, saying graphic and does not ignore them.

AS tagging an image as decorative should allow screen readers to ignore the image, do you know of an issue for screen readers to vocalize graphics that are tagged as decorative ?

We use Office 365.

Thank you in advance

Best

Sylvie


 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 
locked Re: win 7?

Gabriele Battaglia
 

Sorry guys.

I made a mistake on sending message.

Gabe.
locked Re: win 7?

Gabriele Battaglia
 

Ciao Gene, basta che vai in modalità focus, nvda+spazio et voilà.

Gabry.
locked Re: win 7?

Gene
 

I just checked.  According to this article, Google Chrome will support Windows 7 until 2023. 

https://www.makeuseof.com/google-extends-chrome-support-for-windows-7/


Gene

On 3/1/2022 5:20 AM, Gene via groups.io wrote:

Your statement about 32 bit support is not correct.  Windows 11 does not have a 32 bit version but that has nothing to do with whether you can run 32 bit programs in Windows 11.  You can.

See this page for one discussion.

https://www.intowindows.com/does-windows-11-support-32-bit-applications/


As far as programs generally being compatible with Windows 7 over time, I don't have the technical knowledge to discuss that.  I had thought many of them wouldn't but as I consider the question, I was thinking that because that is what has happened in the past, as time went on, a lot of programs stopped supporting earlier versions of Windows. That doesn't mean that has to be the case this time.  Technical conditions may differ.  We'll see what those with enough technical knowledge say.


Gene

On 3/1/2022 1:57 AM, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Well I have win7 on an old laptop and I decided to try it.

According to windows updates, the last major security update was round october sometime.

The lastnon security os enhancement update was in september of the same year.

I suspect for win7 support most stuff probably will support it till win10 stopps completely.

Simply put win11 is 64 bit only so while there will probably be 32 bit apps till they just are not convenient to support them

When windows 10 dies completely spaciffic 32 bit apps will not probably exist.

Right now microsoft still releases 32 bit runtime files and 32 bit libraries.

So I'd expect this to continue.

Its worth noting that while the latest java runtime is 8. something, the last java that is able to support 7 is java 7.

Apart from this, I should imagine chrome will support things till the end of 32 bit at least.

And therefore edge and the rest will follow.

At any rate its much easier to support 7, I mean nvda has no addons at all running on 7 and it can access basically the entire os.

I should imagine that any new software released for windows from now on will at least be untested with windows below 10 but that doesn't mean it won't run.

Saying that after trying my old toshiba  I can't say I would like a single hard drive enabled machine.



On 1/03/2022 6:38 pm, Gene wrote:

I have a Windows 7 machine.  I haven't tried to install Firefox but I can run the most recent Firefox portable. 


IE8 can't access most web sites any longer but you can run IE11 on Windows 7.  You can also run Edge in Windows 7 and Brave.


Its not the current state of what you can run that I think is of concern to a lot of users, but I have no idea what programs may stop supporting Windows 7 in the next year or two.  I would think that browser support, when it ends, may be a serious problem for many people if banks stop letting them use older versions of browsers.


Gene
On 2/28/2022 11:18 PM, mattias wrote:

Lol i played with a virtual win 7

You cant access NVDA-project.org from ie8

You can install a older firefox..

 

Skickades från E-post för Windows

 

Från: Gene
Skickat: den 1 mars 2022 06:11
Till: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Ämne: Re: [nvda] win 7?

 

The question has come up before and it has been stated that when that happens, we will be notified before it does.  When it does, you can still use the latest version that does support it.  I doubt the loss of support  in new versions will matter much to most Windows 7 users.  What I'd be much more worried about is that programs may stop supporting Windows 7 such as browsers over the nest year or two.  And the Microsoft real time protection program for Windows 7, Microsoft Security Essentials, is supposed to stop supporting Windows 7 in 2023.  Other programs may still do so but Microsoft Security Essentials is a good and accessible program.  If browsers stop supporting it in a year or two, at some point, you won't be able to use your banking site because they require reasonably current versions of browsers. 

 

And if your printer breaks or your scanner, I doubt you can get new equipment now that supports  Windows 7. 

 

Whether NVDA stops supporting Windows 7 perhaps this or next year looks to me like one of the least things you need to worry about.

 

Gene

On 2/28/2022 10:48 PM, mattias wrote:

I read somewhere maybe on this list

That NVDA soon stops supporting win 7?

 

 

Skickades från E-post för Windows

 

 
locked Re: win 7?

Gene
 

Your statement about 32 bit support is not correct.  Windows 11 does not have a 32 bit version but that has nothing to do with whether you can run 32 bit programs in Windows 11.  You can.

See this page for one discussion.

https://www.intowindows.com/does-windows-11-support-32-bit-applications/


As far as programs generally being compatible with Windows 7 over time, I don't have the technical knowledge to discuss that.  I had thought many of them wouldn't but as I consider the question, I was thinking that because that is what has happened in the past, as time went on, a lot of programs stopped supporting earlier versions of Windows. That doesn't mean that has to be the case this time.  Technical conditions may differ.  We'll see what those with enough technical knowledge say.


Gene

On 3/1/2022 1:57 AM, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Well I have win7 on an old laptop and I decided to try it.

According to windows updates, the last major security update was round october sometime.

The lastnon security os enhancement update was in september of the same year.

I suspect for win7 support most stuff probably will support it till win10 stopps completely.

Simply put win11 is 64 bit only so while there will probably be 32 bit apps till they just are not convenient to support them

When windows 10 dies completely spaciffic 32 bit apps will not probably exist.

Right now microsoft still releases 32 bit runtime files and 32 bit libraries.

So I'd expect this to continue.

Its worth noting that while the latest java runtime is 8. something, the last java that is able to support 7 is java 7.

Apart from this, I should imagine chrome will support things till the end of 32 bit at least.

And therefore edge and the rest will follow.

At any rate its much easier to support 7, I mean nvda has no addons at all running on 7 and it can access basically the entire os.

I should imagine that any new software released for windows from now on will at least be untested with windows below 10 but that doesn't mean it won't run.

Saying that after trying my old toshiba  I can't say I would like a single hard drive enabled machine.



On 1/03/2022 6:38 pm, Gene wrote:

I have a Windows 7 machine.  I haven't tried to install Firefox but I can run the most recent Firefox portable. 


IE8 can't access most web sites any longer but you can run IE11 on Windows 7.  You can also run Edge in Windows 7 and Brave.


Its not the current state of what you can run that I think is of concern to a lot of users, but I have no idea what programs may stop supporting Windows 7 in the next year or two.  I would think that browser support, when it ends, may be a serious problem for many people if banks stop letting them use older versions of browsers.


Gene
On 2/28/2022 11:18 PM, mattias wrote:

Lol i played with a virtual win 7

You cant access NVDA-project.org from ie8

You can install a older firefox..

 

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Från: Gene
Skickat: den 1 mars 2022 06:11
Till: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Ämne: Re: [nvda] win 7?

 

The question has come up before and it has been stated that when that happens, we will be notified before it does.  When it does, you can still use the latest version that does support it.  I doubt the loss of support  in new versions will matter much to most Windows 7 users.  What I'd be much more worried about is that programs may stop supporting Windows 7 such as browsers over the nest year or two.  And the Microsoft real time protection program for Windows 7, Microsoft Security Essentials, is supposed to stop supporting Windows 7 in 2023.  Other programs may still do so but Microsoft Security Essentials is a good and accessible program.  If browsers stop supporting it in a year or two, at some point, you won't be able to use your banking site because they require reasonably current versions of browsers. 

 

And if your printer breaks or your scanner, I doubt you can get new equipment now that supports  Windows 7. 

 

Whether NVDA stops supporting Windows 7 perhaps this or next year looks to me like one of the least things you need to worry about.

 

Gene

On 2/28/2022 10:48 PM, mattias wrote:

I read somewhere maybe on this list

That NVDA soon stops supporting win 7?

 

 

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Re: NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?

Quentin Christensen
 

Sylvie,

It would be worth writing an issue for this with your proposed outcome (possibly ignoring such images when using say all?)

Note that reading Microsoft documentation on alt text says:

"
Mark visuals as decorative
If your visuals are purely decorative and add visual interest but aren't informative, you can mark them as such without needing to write any alt text. Examples of objects that should be marked as decorative are stylistic borders. People using screen readers will hear that these objects are decorative so they know they aren’t missing any important information. You can mark your visuals as decorative in Excel, PowerPoint, and Word.
"
Which clearly indicates that my screen reader will report that the image exists but that it is decorative.  This does basically fit with the current implementation.

(I'm not arguing either way there, just sharing that info I found when looking into this for you).

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 7:35 PM Sylvie Duchateau <sduchateau@...> wrote:

Hello,

We have been working on a word document using decorative images to illustrate different items.

The images do not bring anything and have been marked as decorative images in the word document.

Note that the MS Word accessibility checker did not find any errors.

Nevertheless, NVDA still reads the images, saying graphic and does not ignore them.

AS tagging an image as decorative should allow screen readers to ignore the image, do you know of an issue for screen readers to vocalize graphics that are tagged as decorative ?

We use Office 365.

Thank you in advance

Best

Sylvie



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?

Sylvie Duchateau
 

Hello,

We have been working on a word document using decorative images to illustrate different items.

The images do not bring anything and have been marked as decorative images in the word document.

Note that the MS Word accessibility checker did not find any errors.

Nevertheless, NVDA still reads the images, saying graphic and does not ignore them.

AS tagging an image as decorative should allow screen readers to ignore the image, do you know of an issue for screen readers to vocalize graphics that are tagged as decorative ?

We use Office 365.

Thank you in advance

Best

Sylvie
locked Re: win 7?

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


If I remember right it will not be until 2023 for when things start to break a lot more and support for windows 7 has to be dropped.



The below is from a message from Quentin to do with support for windows 7 until it is dropped.


 Quentin Christensen
Jan 11   #91640 

Hi everyone,

To follow up on a couple of questions we have received, I wanted to clarify NV Access' position on Windows 7 support.

NVDA will NOT drop support for Windows 7 in the immediate future.  We have previously stated that where we need to put out a release which breaks compatibility or support, that we would (where possible) make this the first release of the year.  Therefore, at this time, we anticipate supporting Windows 7 until, at least, the first release in 2023.

I would also say that we strongly recommend everyone should, where possible, use a supported version of Windows.  Microsoft stopped support for Windows 7 two years ago - 14th January 2020.  There are numerous reasons to upgrade.  One of the biggest is that any exploits found in the operating system not only won't be patched by Microsoft, but cyber criminals know that and will actively try to exploit them.  Even an anti-virus program which can still be updated on Windows 7 may not be able to protect you from a vulnerability in the operating system itself.

As well as this, users on Windows 10 have access to more features with NVDA such as Windows OneCore Voices.  The majority of NVDA users are on Windows 10.  Therefore, NVDA on Windows 10 gets more testing and attention generally. It is the most well supported platform. (If you're looking to upgrade right up to Windows 11 then NVDA 2021.3.1 supports Windows 11.  More users will migrate to that platform over time so it will only continue to improve).

When Microsoft dropped support for Windows XP in April 2014, NVDA continued to support it until 2017.3, in August 2017.  While we can't guarantee how far into the future we will support Windows 7, we will do so until continuing to support it becomes problematic for supporting current features of Windows 10 / 11.  Once we determine that we need to drop support, we will give the community as much notice as possible.




Gene nz


On 1/03/2022 5:48 pm, mattias wrote:

I read somewhere maybe on this list

That NVDA soon stops supporting win 7?

 

 

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