Date   

Re: default dictionaries

Gene
 

I don't know if an enormous number would but I don't think any reasonable number would.


Gene

On 2/16/2022 5:36 PM, Don H wrote:
Does the number of entries in the default dictionary slow down NVDA's performance?




.


Re: NVDA and slack

Christopher Bartlett
 

Thanks for the resources.  Now I just have to figure out how things actually work, since the behavior I observe is not entirely consistent with the tutorial.

Christopher Bartlett


On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 4:24 PM Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:

Oh, so you are saying slack is like teams talk? I was just going to google it to find out for myself what Slack is.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Luke Robinett
Sent: February 16, 2022 8:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and slack

 

Yeah, we also use Slack exclusively and while most of it is doable, I generally just don’t find it to be the most accessible, screen reader friendly app overall. Microsoft teams is marginally better but it has its issues too

On Feb 16, 2022, at 6:29 AM, Christopher Bartlett <themusicalbrewer@...> wrote:



We use slack at work for almost all communications.  I discovered a problem in reading messages in both the threads view, and in the direct message thread for a particular user.  There was a word in her message that I couldn't hear properly, but when I attempted to review the message, while it would read if I arrowed to it in the thread, it did not appear on say-line, nor could I find it in any screen review mode.

If anyone else uses Slack and has a work-around, I'd love to learn.

 

Thank you

 

Christopher Bartlett


 

--

Christopher Bartlett

 



--
Christopher Bartlett


Re: NVDA keyboard problem.

Luke Davis
 

Chantelle Buys wrote:

I have a friend who's NVDA doesn't want to work the way it should on her laptop.
For some reason it won't work when she tries to use her keyboard but,
when her sister uses the mouce it reads.
What exactly do you mean by "it won't work"?
NVDA commands don't work?
The keyboard doesn't interact with any application or Windows as a whole?
Nvda speaks the keys but nothing happens?
Something else?

Also, has she tried starting NVDA with add-ons disabled? With NVDA running, her sister should be able to do that by clicking the NVDA icon in the task bar, selecting exit, and choosing to restart with add-ons disabled. If the keyboard works after that, it's an add-on problem.

Luke


Re: default dictionaries

 

Well, that would really depend on just how many entries you're talking about.  I would doubt that even several thousand entries, which is way more than most would have created in their dictionaries, would have much of any impact.

But if you were to have tens of thousands it might have some effect.  You do have to remember that dictionary processing (whether default, voice, or temporary and the combination of those if more than one is in use) in NVDA always scans the entire dictionary, so the longer it gets the more processing time it requires.  But computers work very quickly, and given the number of entries that's typical, or even the biggest ones I've encountered, are not likely to have an impact that the end user would notice.

I'm sure Quentin will chime in, and perhaps Joseph as well.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: Using AnyDesk with NVDA

 

For the record, Gene emailed me the same text that he posted in his most recent message that states that it is the only version of his Object Navigation tutorial that should be used, and I immediately updated my archived copy on Google Drive:  Using Object Navigation in NVDA - G. Asner

Those downloading this Microsoft Word format tutorial will have exactly the material Gene intends.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


default dictionaries

Don H
 

Does the number of entries in the default dictionary slow down NVDA's performance?


Re: NVDA error when selecting word document in Windows explorer and preview pane activated

Sarah k Alawami
 

Are we sure it's an nvda issue? Or is this a microsoft issue. If the latter it should be reported to MS via their feedback form.


Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. .

For more info go to our website. . to subscribe to the feed click here

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and odysee. Thanks Restream staff.

Videos of some of our podcasts can be found on odysee

You can support the podcast by subscribing via the tip jar. You will get early access episodes plus no adds. If you cannot do that, then leave a 5 star rating on our podcast using your podcast directory's rating system.

On 16 Feb 2022, at 14:22, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Just chiming in to say I don't see an issue on GitHub.  So if someone would like to create one, please go ahead: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues  As noted by Brian's experimentation, it seems that the issue is almost certainly with File Explorer and NVDA is simply passing that feedback (or lack of it) back to the user, rather than contributing to the problem.  But recording it on GitHub can still be useful, and will also prompt us to raise it with Microsoft as well (and as with any issue, the more people who raise it, the more likely something will be done in a more timely manner).

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 3:35 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I don't know what the case is now, I haven't seen this discussed for
years, but in Windows 7, you were supposed to have the preview pane off
when using NVDA.  If you didn't, you were likely to have crashes.  You
aren't benefited in any way that matters buy having it on.  If you turn
it off, the problem will probably disappear.


As far as how to turn it off,  open a folder or drive using file explorer.

move to the ribbons with alt.  Type v to move to the view ribbon, then
start tabbing.  You will get to a button for show preview pane.  If it
is pressed, press the space bar to turn it off.

The ribbons will close and you will be back in file explorer.


That should solve the problem.


You may report it, I don't know if NVDA is supposed to work when the
preview pane is enabled, it wasn't expected to a number of years ago.


Gene


On 2/16/2022 8:56 AM, bering.p wrote:
> Hi.
> I don't know if this has been reported to NVAccess yet, but here's
> what I found.
> In windows explorer with a Word document (.docx) selected and the
> preview pane activated, if you type "tab" several times, an error is
> reported in the NVDA log and it is no longer possible to continue or
> go back with "tab".
>
> Here is the error:
> Starting NVDA version alpha-24688,af3b8440
> Windows version: Windows 10 21H1 (10.0.19043) workstation (french
> language)
> no add-on loaded
> ERROR - eventHandler.executeEvent (15:19:24.579) - MainThread (3392):
> error executing event: gainFocus on
> <NVDAObjects.IAccessible.winword.ProtectedDocumentPane object at
> 0x07F3A490> with extra args of {}
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "eventHandler.pyc", line 284, in executeEvent
>   File "eventHandler.pyc", line 98, in __init__
>   File "eventHandler.pyc", line 107, in next
>   File "NVDAObjects\IAccessible\winword.pyc", line 466, in
> event_gainFocus
> AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'active'
> ERROR - eventHandler.executeEvent (15:19:24.709) - MainThread (3392):
> error executing event: gainFocus on
> <NVDAObjects.Dynamic_WinwordWordDocumentWordDocumentIAccessibleWindowNVDAObject
> object at 0x07FB62D0> with extra args of {}
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "eventHandler.pyc", line 284, in executeEvent
>   File "eventHandler.pyc", line 98, in __init__
>   File "eventHandler.pyc", line 107, in next
>   File "NVDAObjects\__init__.pyc", line 1195, in event_gainFocus
>   File "NVDAObjects\__init__.pyc", line 1050, in reportFocus
>   File "speech\speech.pyc", line 558, in speakObject
>   File "speech\speech.pyc", line 607, in getObjectSpeech
>   File "documentBase.pyc", line 22, in makeTextInfo
>   File "NVDAObjects\window\winword.pyc", line 707, in __init__
> AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'range'
>
> Are you seeing the same problem?
> Thanks.
> Best regards.
>
> Paul.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> .







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016

Arlene
 

Oh boy! That’s no good. I hope Jaws works with the ribbons. I hope you can find a workable solution with either Jaws or NVDA.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Kenny Cheung
Sent: February 16, 2022 12:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016

 

I tried it with Jaws, and not so good. It read the columns, but I haven’t tried navigating some of the ribbons with it yet.

Sent from Kenny’s MacBook Pro



On Feb 16, 2022, at 15:16, Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:

 

Boy, that sounds like a headache.  Have you tried these steps using Jaws?  If this same thing happens while using JFW. You might want to talk to someone who set you up with Microsoft Project.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Kenny Cheung
Sent: February 16, 2022 9:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016

 

Here are the steps I did to try and finish my assignment.

To set the start date for a project you have to go to:

1. Project

I open project

2. Project Information (this will open a dialog box with a bunch of fields)

I press ault and right arrow to the project tab and down arrow to go in to the ribbon. Then I right arrow to where it says project information

3. Change the date is the Start Date filed

I see a data grid that says custom fields, and when I try to arrow through it I can’t move at all. If I ault tab out of that window to outlook or some other program and ault tab back it becomes a editable combo box, or tab to where it says schedule from which is a combo box and shift tab back to start date, it becomes a combo box where I can type. I type in 2/16/18.

4. Select OK to complete

I press enter and end up back in the project document, I right arrow to where it says start and its blank.

 

To add a non-working day on a project calendar go to:

1. Project

I go to the project tab and down arrow to go in to the ribbon. I see Subproject  button, Get Addins  button, Project Information...  button, Custom Fields  button, WBS  collapsed, Set Baseline  collapsed, Update Project...  button, and Spelling...  button. Some of the buttons like change working time and links between projects, and schedule didn’t show up until I tabbed through the ribbon.

2. Change Working Time (this will open a dialog box with a bunch of fields)

I go to the project tab and down arrow. Then I press tab to working time, and after I press enter I’m in the exceptions control tab. It brings me to a data grid, and I try pressing the arrow keys and it says data item  selected  Name, and when I press right arrow it says data item  selected  Start

I press f2 on where it says named. I tried enter and it brought me back to the main document.

3. Select the date from the calendar that is in the dialogue box

I press right arrow to start and press enter, it brings me back to the document. I go back to the project tab and back to change working time. I press f2 to edit and put in 2/25/18.

4. In the Name field, type Nonworking Time

I put in Non-working time after I pressed f2 in the name field

5. Select OK to complete

I pressed enter and the name and start date columns are blank

To update file properties:

1. File

I press ault and left arrow to file.

2. Info

I down arrow to info

3. Project Information

I press tab to project information

4. Advanced Properties (this will open a dialog box with a bunch of fields)

Then I press enter on advanced properties

5. Complete the needed fields

I tried object nav with object review, and no luck, so I switch to screen review. I’m able to interact with the different fields I go to the subject field and do ault s, and put in to the subject field New book launch schedule. I do NVDA shift right arrow to get to manager and NVDA shift down arrow to interact with the field and do ault+M since I couldn’t press enter on it or NVDA enter to activate it. I go to where it says Company:  and put in Lucerne Publishing

 

6. Select OK to complete

I press enter and nothings in the main document. All the changes that I made from setting the start date to here are only in the boxes, and not in the actual project document.

 

 

Sent from Kenny’s MacBook Pro

 

On Feb 15, 2022, at 19:14, Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:

 

Oh okay. I hope Jaws works.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Kenny Cheung
Sent: February 15, 2022 3:58 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016

 

I haven't tried project on the mac, but I don't really want to pay for a subscription. all the Microsoft stuff is through my state agency.

On 2/15/2022 18:55, Arlene wrote:

I don’t blame you. It just may go that way. You may end up using jaws.  Have you tried using Microsoft Project with your Mac Pro yet? I see your sitnature saying sent from my mac pro. Smiles.  

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Kenny Cheung
Sent: February 15, 2022 3:51 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016

 

Thanks. I’m starting not to like Microsoft Project.

Sent from Kenny’s MacBook Pro

 

On Feb 15, 2022, at 18:31, Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:

 

Oh no, try jaws tomorrow and see what happens. I had a situation where Jaws would not work for a course I took in 2019. But NVDA worked even before I switched to win ten while doing this course.  I thought it was because Jaws was too old and I had an updated version of NVDA. I had windows 7, jaws 14 and NVDA 19 or whatever it was back then.  Then that system bit the dust. I got windows ten witch I have now. I did update to Jaws 19 along with NVDA 19 as well. Still Jaws didn’t work for it. NVDA worked. I did complete the course using NVDA. You may end up using Jaws. Who knows so it goes. Good luck with Microsoft project 16. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Kenny Cheung
Sent: February 15, 2022 3:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016

 

I'm going to try Jaws tomorrow and see how it goes. I'm looking for an add-on that will make using project 2016 easier because when I opened a knew project and tried putting in a start date I went to the projects ribbon and I went to the calendar section. their was a drop down box, and when I put in 2 /18/16 and shift tab to okay the date I put in didn't show up in the start date.

On 2/15/2022 17:59, Arlene wrote:

Hi, what type of addon are you looking for? You might want to look on the addons site in the meantime until someone answers your question.  Have you tried your project 16 using Nairator? Do you have Jaws for a back up screen reader if there is no addon when using project 16. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Kenny Cheung
Sent: February 15, 2022 10:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016

 

Hi,

I’m taking a project management class and we’re using project 2016, and I was wondering if their are add-ons or some commands guide I could look at. I was doing a practice project and it wanted me to add an event as a exception for a no work day, and I had trouble doing that and trying to navigate the calendar to add a start date.

 

Sent from Kenny’s iPhone

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: NVDA error when selecting word document in Windows explorer and preview pane activated

Quentin Christensen
 

Just chiming in to say I don't see an issue on GitHub.  So if someone would like to create one, please go ahead: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues  As noted by Brian's experimentation, it seems that the issue is almost certainly with File Explorer and NVDA is simply passing that feedback (or lack of it) back to the user, rather than contributing to the problem.  But recording it on GitHub can still be useful, and will also prompt us to raise it with Microsoft as well (and as with any issue, the more people who raise it, the more likely something will be done in a more timely manner).

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 3:35 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I don't know what the case is now, I haven't seen this discussed for
years, but in Windows 7, you were supposed to have the preview pane off
when using NVDA.  If you didn't, you were likely to have crashes.  You
aren't benefited in any way that matters buy having it on.  If you turn
it off, the problem will probably disappear.


As far as how to turn it off,  open a folder or drive using file explorer.

move to the ribbons with alt.  Type v to move to the view ribbon, then
start tabbing.  You will get to a button for show preview pane.  If it
is pressed, press the space bar to turn it off.

The ribbons will close and you will be back in file explorer.


That should solve the problem.


You may report it, I don't know if NVDA is supposed to work when the
preview pane is enabled, it wasn't expected to a number of years ago.


Gene


On 2/16/2022 8:56 AM, bering.p wrote:
> Hi.
> I don't know if this has been reported to NVAccess yet, but here's
> what I found.
> In windows explorer with a Word document (.docx) selected and the
> preview pane activated, if you type "tab" several times, an error is
> reported in the NVDA log and it is no longer possible to continue or
> go back with "tab".
>
> Here is the error:
> Starting NVDA version alpha-24688,af3b8440
> Windows version: Windows 10 21H1 (10.0.19043) workstation (french
> language)
> no add-on loaded
> ERROR - eventHandler.executeEvent (15:19:24.579) - MainThread (3392):
> error executing event: gainFocus on
> <NVDAObjects.IAccessible.winword.ProtectedDocumentPane object at
> 0x07F3A490> with extra args of {}
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "eventHandler.pyc", line 284, in executeEvent
>   File "eventHandler.pyc", line 98, in __init__
>   File "eventHandler.pyc", line 107, in next
>   File "NVDAObjects\IAccessible\winword.pyc", line 466, in
> event_gainFocus
> AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'active'
> ERROR - eventHandler.executeEvent (15:19:24.709) - MainThread (3392):
> error executing event: gainFocus on
> <NVDAObjects.Dynamic_WinwordWordDocumentWordDocumentIAccessibleWindowNVDAObject
> object at 0x07FB62D0> with extra args of {}
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "eventHandler.pyc", line 284, in executeEvent
>   File "eventHandler.pyc", line 98, in __init__
>   File "eventHandler.pyc", line 107, in next
>   File "NVDAObjects\__init__.pyc", line 1195, in event_gainFocus
>   File "NVDAObjects\__init__.pyc", line 1050, in reportFocus
>   File "speech\speech.pyc", line 558, in speakObject
>   File "speech\speech.pyc", line 607, in getObjectSpeech
>   File "documentBase.pyc", line 22, in makeTextInfo
>   File "NVDAObjects\window\winword.pyc", line 707, in __init__
> AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'range'
>
> Are you seeing the same problem?
> Thanks.
> Best regards.
>
> Paul.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> .







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: NVDA and slack

Arlene
 

Oh, so you are saying slack is like teams talk? I was just going to google it to find out for myself what Slack is.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Luke Robinett
Sent: February 16, 2022 8:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and slack

 

Yeah, we also use Slack exclusively and while most of it is doable, I generally just don’t find it to be the most accessible, screen reader friendly app overall. Microsoft teams is marginally better but it has its issues too

On Feb 16, 2022, at 6:29 AM, Christopher Bartlett <themusicalbrewer@...> wrote:



We use slack at work for almost all communications.  I discovered a problem in reading messages in both the threads view, and in the direct message thread for a particular user.  There was a word in her message that I couldn't hear properly, but when I attempted to review the message, while it would read if I arrowed to it in the thread, it did not appear on say-line, nor could I find it in any screen review mode.

If anyone else uses Slack and has a work-around, I'd love to learn.

 

Thank you

 

Christopher Bartlett


 

--

Christopher Bartlett

 


Re: NVDA and slack

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi




If it is the same slack the following web page might help at https://slack.com/help/articles/360000411963-Use-Slack-with-a-screen-reader

Gene nz


On 17/02/2022 4:55 am, Sam Bushman wrote:

Any link to help us find this please?

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 8:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and slack

 

Have a look at archive topic Slack for Windows Accessibility
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: Using AnyDesk with NVDA

Gene
 

I accidentally sent the last message before I finished editing and  checking it.  This message contains the intended version of the tutorial and all comments I intended to make.


Don't use either the last complete tutorial I sent or the short one I sent earlier.  I found, when looking farther in the short tutorial, that I did make the errors about two movement commands I originally thought I had.  Use only the tutorial contained in this message.


This is the version intended for distribution.


Gene


This tutorial will teach how to use object navigation.  Rather than discussing what an object is to any extent, I believe the best way to teach most people about how to work with objects is to present examples for people to perform and discussions of those examples.  I shall describe a bit about the organization of objects to provide a framework, but the real understanding will be experiential, from performing the examples and from the user's moving around once he/she knows how.

I don't know a technical definition of an object.  I've seen such definitions but they do little to promote practical understanding.  I am usually very interested in and recognize the importance of understanding terms but this is an exception.  If you are curious, you may wish to pursue the subject of what an object is more definitionally and technically.

Though this may not be technically a good definition, I'll say that an object is a thing like a document or a button.  A document can be very large, thus an example of a very large object.  A button is small and buttons are objects, thus an example of a small object.

Objects are organized in hierarchies, as you move down an object hierarchy, each level down is more specific.  For example, and this doesn't literally represent what you will find as you move down, but it gives you an idea of a hierarchy, let's say you start in the desktop object.  From where you are in that object, you move down to the notepad window object.  You  will be able to move down to it if Notepad is opened.  then move further down and get to an object containing menu icons in Notepad.  If you are in the right place in the object and move down further, you may be in the document window, which would contain a document.  As I said, a document can be a very large object, or  a small one, depending on the size of the document.  If you try to move further down, you won't be able to. You have reached the end of the hierarchy, the lowest level.

A more or less useful analogy might be an arm, a wrist, a hand, and the thumb and fingers on the hand.

The arm is the most general and the highest in our analogy to objects.  It is used to move through areas of space to position the wrist and hand.  The wrist is more specific to finer control of the hand.  It is the next object down in the hierarchy.  Then there is the hand, used for all sorts of finer manipulations of objects.  And finally, the thumb and fingers, the lowest objects in the hierarchy.

I chose the hand and its fingers very intentionally.  The hand has five objects in the lowest category, each attached to the hand. The thumb and fingers are all separate objects and all at the same lowest level.  They are all connected to the hand, which is an object that is in the higher level.

Depending on where you are as you move through the hand object, you can move down into a finger and do what that finger can do. Rather than explain further, I'll now proceed to working with concrete items, explaining where I think it is useful or important, but the main emphasis will be on working with things and deriving an understanding in that way.

I shall use desktop layout commands.  I don’t use nor know the laptop layout commands.  Someone may want to provide them.

We will use WordPad for our examples at this point.

First, issue the command numpad insert plus numpad 1 until you hear no previous review mode.  That is to make sure you didn’t use screen review and forget to go back.  Object navigation is the default but I want to make sure everyone is using it.

Now, do the following:
Open WordPad.  Type a bit of text.  Now issue the close command. You are in the are you sure dialog.
Press the following keys and listen to all speech.
Numpad 8.
Numpad 7.
Numpad 9.
Numpad 8 reads the current line in the object you are in.  You hear save.
Numpad 7 moves back one line in the object.
You hear top, save.
That’s because there is no previous line.
Numpad 9 moves you to the next line in the object.  You hear bottom, save because there is no next line.
This is a small object.  It is only one button.  Button isn’t announced for some reason but it is a save button.
Now, let’s move to the next object to the right.  Issue the command numpad insert plus numpad 6.
You have now moved to the next object.  It is a bit of text, the do you want to save question.  For some reason, this dialog doesn’t work as expected when moving to next and previous objects.  Usually, if you move to the next and previous objects, you will get to the last one in the direction you are moving.  At that point, you will hear either no previous or no next.
To move to the right by object the command is numpad insert+numpad 6.  To move to the left, the command is numpad insert+numpad 4.
Each time you move to another object, you can use the review keys I showed you earlier to see if you can move around the object and to read the current line.  That is, numpad 7, back line, numpad 8, say current line, numpad 9, forward one line.

If you were using screen review, you would use the same commands to review the screen, numpad 7, 8, and 9.  You would be moving in the screen, not specifically in an object.

At times objects are small, as these are, at times they are very large.

To see a very large or a larger object, finish closing WordPad, then open a large document in WordPad.  Either that or open WordPad and type a number of lines of text.
If you use numpad 9 to move through the document, you will find that you can move through the entire document.  The entire document is one object.
If you were using screen review, you would only be able to move as far up or down as the screen that is now visible.

The command to go into screen review, if you want to experiment, is numpad insert plus numpad 7.  There may be another mode, document review, but keep moving until you get to screen review. Don’t forget to go back to object review when you are finished in screen review.  If you don’t, some things you do may not work as expected.

There are times when you can see things using screen review that you can’t using object review.  There are times when the opposite is true.  One isn’t better or more useful than the other, though one may be of more use to a person, depending on how they use a computer, in other words, what programs they run and perhaps, how they work with certain programs.

Now that we have demonstrated how to move from one object to another on the same level, let's see how to move from a higher object to a lower and in reverse.  We shall combine that with moving in objects to see how you can get information about what is in an object.

Let's continue to use Wordpad.  Open it and write some text, even something short like This is demonstration text would be fine.
You are now in the object that is the document.
The command to move up in the object hierarchy is numpad insert+numpad 8.
To move down to a lower object, the command is numpad insert+numpad 2.
Try moving down using numpad insert+numpad 2.  You will hear "No objects inside."
Remember the analogy of the hand.  You are already in the document.  There is no reason to have any objects inside or lower than that.  You are already working, to use our analogy, with your fingers.
Let's move up to the hand, Remember that as you move up, each object becomes more general.  Before you move up, use numpad insert+t to read the title bar.
Now, move up.  The command again is  numpad insert+numpad 8.

Notice that you hear the same thing both times with one difference. You hear the word window when you move by object.
You are now in the object that is the window above the document, and the title of the document is spoken, or just saying what the object is if you haven't given the document a title.

But this object has much more.  Issue the command numpad 8.  You will hear the first line in the object read.  To verify that it is the first line, try to move back with numpad 7.  You will hear top, and then the same thing you heard before.  You are on the first line, what NVDA is calling the top.
Start moving to the right, using numpad 9.  I don't know technically what this is, but it may look like a tool bar.  I would expect to hear things like this moving in a tool bar.  Tool bars show commands. The purpose is to show commonly used commands and not have the sighted user have to look through menus or ribbons to find them.  This structure has a number of things grouped on each line.  Tool bars may just have one thing on a line.  The principle is the same, whatever this is, technically.

Since there is more than one thing on a line, we'll use the read current item on the line.   The command is numpad 5.  Read previous item is numpad 4 and next item is numpad 6.
As you read in these ways, you can hear the commands one at a time.  You are located at the command.  You move to the item you hear announced.
Move back and forth using numpad 7, 8, and 9 and 4, 5, and 6 to help get the commands in mind.
To move by and speak a single character, the commands are numpad 1, 2, and 3.  So, the pattern is, single character, numpad 1, 2, and 3.

Single item such as word, numpad 4, 5, and 6.

Line, numpad 7, 8, and 9.

Now, let's move up to the next higher object, by analogy, the wrist.  The command, again,  is numpad insert numpad 8, the same command you used to move up before.
You will hear, desktop window.  You have moved to the desktop and are completely out of Wordpad.  So, to be analogically correct, we are in the arm, not the wrist.  Don't worry if we follow the analogy perfectly, the idea is the important thing.


Suppose you want to return to the Wordpad object.  If you use the move down command here, you will likely not move back into Wordpad.  You would expect to, since that is where you came from but you have moved to the desktop window and may now be in a different place.  An easy way to move back is to alt tab, then release alt and tab, then alt tab again.  You have moved out of Wordpad and back in.  By default, NVDA follows where you are when moving using system navigation.  You left Wordpad when moving up by object, but you were still in the program in the system.  Alt tabbing, releasing alt and tab, then alt tabbing again moved you out of Wordpad, the object navigator followed to your new location, then it moved back to Wordpad again, when the system focus moved there again.  You are in the document again.  System focus is in the document where we started.

Knowing this will save you lots of frustration if you move somewhere you don't want to be and you want to get back.  If there is only one Window opened, go to the desktop and then alt tab into the program you are working with again.  It doesn't matter how you move out and back.

Now, let's see how you can see information by moving into an object, by moving down from the object you are into another object.  We already have moved up through objects.
For this demonstration, open Notepad.
Type a little text such as, This is demonstration text.
You are now in the document, the entire document is one object.
Move to the object to the left with numpad insert+numpad4.
You will hear Application menu and some explanation of what commands are there.
If you use numpad 8, you will hear repeated what you heard before.
If you use numpad 7, you will hear top.  There is no previous line.  Use numpad 9 and you hear bottom.   There is no next line.
Move to the next object to your left.  You hear close, button, closes the window.
That is an object and there is nothing else in that object as you can determine as you did before.
Continue to move left by object, numpad insert+numpad 4.  You will hear most of the items you hear when you open the application menu in a program with alt space.  Each item is a single object.
Remember that objects can be very large, an entire document, or very small, as here.
Move right again until you get back to application menu bar.
Is there an object below this?
Use numpad insert+numpad 2 and you will move to an object inside or below this one.
You will hear file submenu, alt f.
This is one object.
If you move right by object, you will move through the menu items you usually get to with alt and moving with the right arrow.
Move left by object to get back to file.
Try moving down to see if you can move into an object containing the file commands such as open, new, etc.  You can't.
So you open the object instead.
there are two ways to open an object.
Use the command numpad insert+numpad enter.  Numpad enter is the long key at the bottom right of the numpad.  Hold numpad insert and while doing so, tap numpad enter.
Do so now.
You are now in the file menu.  Each file item is an object.  Start moving right by object and you will move through the menu items you usually move through using down arrow.
To take an action, use the same command you used to open the menu, numpad insert+numpad enter.
Move to open and try it.   The open dialog comes up.
You have done exactly the same thing you usually do another way. Since you don't want to open anything, close the dialog with escape.  You are now back in the main window and so is the object navigator.  Remember that by default, the object navigator moves to where the system focus moves to when it changes.


I'll explain the other way to open an object a little later.


You wouldn't ordinarily use object navigation in Notepad because you can do everything from the keyboard.  Object navigation is for times when you can't do something, including getting information you want.

Let's have one more example.  This time, its how to get information when that is all you want to do.
As you may recall, you are back in the document window of Notepad.
Move right by object.
You get to the status bar.
You hear it announced.
But you need to move into the object to hear the information.
If you move down, numpad insert+numpad2, you will hear the information in the status bar read.
That is the object inside the object that says status bar.

We are close to the end of the tutorial but I'll show you two other things.
First, the other way to take an action such as open an object. Instead of using the command I showed you before, you can do the same thing using the virtual mouse.
Route the mouse to where you are with numpad insert+numpad slash.
Then left click it by just tapping numpad slash by itself.
You have now taken the same action you did before.
I'm telling you both methods so you may use the one you want and so that if one method doesn't work where you are you can try the other.  They usually both work.

And for our last demonstration, I'll tell you something that appears to be little understood for its value.
the command is often thought of as a read dialog command.  It does much more.
It is insert b.  You can use either insert.
It reads all controls in the active window.  It may read more such as text as well but not necessarily.  With all the objects that may be in a window and with objects being inside of objects, you may find something you are looking for by using insert b that you aren't finding by manually looking.  Sometimes, you may want to use the command out of curiosity to see things that are in a window just to see what is there.  At times, its interesting to see things like tool bars that a sighted person would use and that you wouldn't generally use.  Sometimes, you may find a feature you didn't know about that you might want to use.  You can probably use it from the keyboard, though you may need to use it with object navigation.  You may be able to use screen review butt often not.

If you stop speech with control when you're on an item, the object navigator will be on the item.  If you stop it a little before or after, the object navigator will not be on it, but it will be close.  But because of how objects are organized, you may find it easier to issue the command again, hear things read, and now that you know what you are looking for, press control as the item is read.

I hope you find this tutorial useful.  If things seem unclear, experimenting by moving around programs and looking at the descriptions of moving through programs and moving through the ones I've discussed may make things more clear.

I think that object navigation is something that is puzzling to most people but as they work with it, with good instruction, it becomes clear.  I hope you find this to be good instruction.


Re: NVDA and slack

 

Richard,

I have no idea what you're asking, as the link I gave, Slack for Windows Accessibility, is an NVDA Group Archive topic conducted entirely in English.  The resource that member Sylvie Duchateau posted, Use slack with a screen reader, is also entirely in English.

If you do not know how to browse the NVDA Group Archive, please read my tutorial, Browsing a Groups.io Topics Page/Archive.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: Using AnyDesk with NVDA

Gene
 

Here is the tutorial.  If ;people

find errors or have suggestions that I apply, I'll send a new version.  I've looked carefully and I don't think there are any errors, though every once in  a while, there is an error the creator of material  doesn't catch, no matter how careful.


Gene


This tutorial will teach how to use object navigation.  Rather than discussing what an object is to any extent, I believe the best way to teach most people about how to work with objects is to present examples for people to perform and discussions of those examples.  I shall describe a bit about the organization of objects to provide a framework, but the real understanding will be experiential, from performing the examples and from the user's moving around once he/she knows how. 

I don't know a technical definition of an object.  I've seen such definitions but they do little to promote practical understanding.  I am usually very interested in and recognize the importance of understanding terms but this is an exception.  If you are curious, you may wish to pursue the subject of what an object is more definitionally and technically. 

Though this may not be technically a good definition, I'll say that an object is a thing like a document or a button.  A document can be very large, thus an example of a very large object.  A button is small and buttons are generally, in my experience, objects, thus an example of a small object.

Objects are organized in hierarchies, as you move down an object hierarchy, each level down is more specific.  For example, and this doesn't literally represent what you will find as you move down, but it gives you an idea of a hierarchy, let's say you start in the desktop object.  From where you are in that object, you move down to the notepad window object.  You  will be able to move down to it if Notepad is opened.  then move further down and get to an object containing menu icons in Notepad.  If you are in the right place in the object and move down further, you may be in the document window, which would contain a document.  As I said, a document can be a very large object, or  a small one, depending on the size of the document.  If you try to move further down, you won't be able to. You have reached the end of the hierarchy, the lowest level.

A more or less useful analogy might be an arm, a wrist, a hand, and the thumb and fingers on the hand.

The arm is the most general and the highest in our analogy to objects.  It is used to move through areas of space to position the wrist and hand.  The wrist is more specific to finer control of the hand.  It is the next object down in the hierarchy.  Then there is the hand, used for all sorts of finer manipulations of objects.  And finally, the thumb and fingers, the lowest objects in the hierarchy. 

I chose the hand and its fingers very intentionally.  The hand has five objects in the lowest category, each attached to the hand.  The thumb and fingers are all separate objects and all at the same lowest level.  They are all connected to the hand, which is an object that is in the higher level.

Depending on where you are as you move through the hand object, you can move down into a finger and do what that finger can do.  Rather than explain further, I'll now proceed to working with concrete items, explaining where I think it is useful or important but the main emphasis will be on working with things and deriving an understanding in that way.

I shall use desktop layout commands.  I don’t use nor know the laptop layout commands.  Someone may want to provide them.

We will use WordPad for our examples at this point.

First, issue the command numpad insert plus numpad 1 until you hear no previous review mode.  That is to make sure you didn’t use screen review and forget to go back.  Object navigation is the default but I want to make sure everyone is using it.

Now, do the following:
Open WordPad.  Type a bit of text.  Now issue the close command.  You are in the are you sure dialog.
Press the following keys and listen to all speech.
Numpad 8.
Numpad 7.
Numpad 9.
Numpad 8 reads the current line in the object you are in.  You hear save.
Numpad 7 moves back one line in the object.
You hear top, save.
That’s because there is no previous line.
Numpad 9 moves you to the next line in the object.  You hear bottom, save because there is no next line.
This is a small object.  It is only one button.  Button isn’t announced for some reason but it is a save button.
Now, let’s move to the next object to the right.  Issue the command numpad insert plus numpad 6. 
You have now moved to the next object.  It is a bit of text, the do you want to save question.  For some reason, this dialog doesn’t work as expected when moving to next and previous objects.  Usually, if you move to the next and previous objects, you will get to the last one in the direction you are moving.  At that point, you will hear either no previous or no next.
To move to the right by object the command is numpad insert plus numpad 6.  To move to the left, the command is numpad insert numpad 4. 
Each time you move to another object, you can use the review keys I showed you earlier to see if you can move around the object and read the current line.  That is, numpad 7, back line, numpad 8, say current line, numpad 9, forward one line.

To see a very large or a larger object, finish closing WordPad, then open a large document in WordPad.  Either that or open WordPad and type a number of lines of text. 
If you use numpad 9 to move through the document, you will find that you can move through the entire document.  The entire document is one object. 
If you were using screen review, you would only be able to move as far up or down as the screen that is now visible. 

The command to go into screen review, if you want to experiment, is numpad insert plus numpad 7.  There may be another mode, document review, but keep moving until you get to screen review.  Don’t forget to go back to object review when you are finished in screen review.  If you don’t, some things you do may not work as expected.

There are times when you can see things using screen review that you can’t using object review.  There are times when the opposite is true.  One isn’t better or more useful than the other, though one may be of more use to a person, depending on how they use a computer, in other words, what programs they run and perhaps, how they work with certain programs. 

Now that we have demonstrated how to move from one object to another on the same level, let's see how to move from a higher object to a lower and in reverse.  We shall combine that with moving in objects to see how you can get information about what is in an object.

Let's continue to use Wordpad.  Open it and write some text, even something short like This is demonstration text would be fine. 
You are now in the object that is the document.
The commands to move up in the object higherarky is numpad insert+numpad 8.
To move down to a lower object, the command is numpad insert+numpad 2.
Try moving down using numpad insert+numpad 2.  You willhear "No objects inside."
Remember the analogy of the hand.  You are already in the document.  There is no reason to have any objects inside or lower than that.  You are already working, to use our analogy, with your fingers.
Let's move up to the hand, Remember that as you move up, each object becomes more general.  Before you move up, use Numpad insert t to read the title bar.
Now, move up.  The command again is  numpad insert+numpad 8.

Notice that you hear the same thing both times with one difference. You hear the word window when you move byu object.
You are now in the object that is the window above the document, and the title of the document is spoken, or just saying what the object is if you haven't given the document a title.

But this object has much more.  Issue the command numpad 8.  You will hear the first line in the object read.  To verify that it is the first line, try to move back with numpad 7.  You will hear top, and then the same thing you heard before.  You are on the first line, what NVDA is calling the top. 
Start moving to the right, using numpad 9.  I don't know technically what this is, but it may look like a tool bar.  I would expectto hear things like this moving in a tool bar.  Tool bars show commands. The purpose is to avoid the sighted user from looking through menus or ribbons for common commands.  This structure has a number of things grouped on each line.  Tool bars may just have one thing on a line.  The principle is the same, whatever this is, technically.

Since there is more than one thing on a line, we'll use the read current item on the line.   The command is numpad 5.  Read previous item is numpad 4 and next item is numpad 6.
As you read in these ways, you can hear the commands one at a time.  You are located at the command.  You move to the item you hear announced.
Move back and forth using numpad 7, 8, and 9 and 4, 5, and 6 to help et the commands in mind. 
To move by and speak a single carachter, the commands are numpad 1, 2, and 3.  So, the pattern is, single carachter, numpad 1, 2, and 3.   Singleitem such as word, numpad 4, 5, and 6.  Line, numpad 7, 8, and 9.


Now, let's move up to the next higher object, by analogy, the wrist.  The command, again,  is numpad insert numpad 8, the same command you used to move up before.
You will hear, desktop window.  You have moved to the desktop and are completely out of Wordpad.  So, to be analogically correct, we are in the arm, not the wrist.  Don't worry if we follow the analogy perfectly, the idea is the important thing.
Suppose you want to return to the wordpad object.  If you use the move down command here, you will likely not move back into Wordpad.  You would expect to, since that is where you came from but you have moved to the desktop window and may now be in a different place.  An easy way to move back is to alt tab, then release alt and tab, then alt tab again.  You have moved out of Wordpad and back in.  By default, NVDA follows where you are when moving using systtem navigation.  You left Wordpad when moving up by object, but you were still in the program in the system.  Alt tabbing, releasing alt and tab, then alt tabbing again moved you out of Wordpad, the object navigator followed to your new location, then it moved back to Wordpad again, when the system focus moved there again.  You are in the document again.  System focus is in the document where we started. 

Knowing this will save you lots of frustration if you move somewhere you don't want to be and you want to get back.  If there is only one Window opened, go to the desktop and then alt tab into the program you are working with again.  It doesn't matter how you move out and back. 

Now, let's see how you can see information by moving into and object, by moving down from the object you are into another object.  We already have moved up through objects.
For this demonstration, open Notepad. 
Type a little text such as, This is demonstration text.
You are now in the document, the entire document is one object.
Move to the object to the left with numpad insert+numpad4.
You will hear Application menu and some explanation of what commands are there.
If you use numpad 8, you will hear repeated what you heard before.
If you use numpad 7, you will hear top.  There is no previous line.  Use numpad 9 and you hear bottom.   There is no next line.
Move to the next ogject to your left.  You hear close, button, closes the window.
That is an object and there is nothing else in that object as you can determine as you did before.
Continue to move left by object, numpad insert+numpad 4.  You will hear most of the items you hear when you open the application menu in a program with alt space.  Each item is a single object.
Remember that objects can be very large, an entire document, or very small, as here.
Move right again until you get back to application menu bar.
Is there an object below this?
Use numpad insert+numpad 2 and you will move to an object inside or below this one.
You will hear file submenu, alt f.
This is one object.
If you move right by object, you will move through the menu items you usually get to with alt and moving with the right arrow.
Move left by object to get back to file.
Try moving down to see if you can move into an object containing the file commands such as open, new, etc.  You can't.
So you open the object instead.
there are two ways to open an object. 
Use the command numpad insert+numpad enter.  Numpad enter is the long key at the bottom right of the numpad.  Hold numpad insert and while doing so, tap numpad enter. 
Do so now.
You are now in the file menu.  Each file item is an object.  Start moving right by object and you will move through the menu items you usually move through using down arrow.
To take an action, use the same command you used to open the menu, numpad insert+numpad enter.
Move to open and try it.   The open dialog comes up.
You have done exactly the same thing you usually do another way.  Since you don't want to open anything, close the dialog with escape.  You are now back in the main window and so is the object navigator.  Remember that by default, the object navigator moves to where the system focus moves to when it changes.

You wouldn't ordinarily use object navigation in Notepad because you can do everything from the keyboard.  Object navigation is for times when you can't do something, including tetting information you want. 

Let's have one more example.  This time, its how to get information when that is all you want to do.
As you may recall, you are back in the document window of Notepad.
Move right by object. 
You get to the status bar.
You hear it announced.
But you need to move into the object to hear the information.
If you move down, numpad insert+numpad2, you will hear the information in the status bar read. 
That is the object inside the object that says status bar.

We are close to the endof the tutorial but I'll show you two other things:
First, the other way to take an action such as open a menu.
Instead of using the command I showed you before, you can do the same thing using the virtual mouse.
Route the mouse to where you are with numpad insert+numpad slash.
Then left click it by just tapping numpad slash by itself.
You have now taken the same action you did before.
I'm telling you both methods so you may use the one you want and so that if one method doesn't work where you are you can try the other.  They usually both work.

And for our last demonstration, I'll tell you something that appears to be little understood for its value.
the command is often thought of as a read dialog command.  It does much more. 
It is insert b.  You can use either insert. 
It reads all controls in the active window.  It may read more such as text as well but not necesssarily.  With all the objects that may be in a window and with objects being inside of objects, you may find something you are looking for by using insert b that you aren't finding by manually looking.  Sometimes, you may want to use the command out of curiosity to see things that are in a window just to see what is there.  At times, its interesting to see things like tool bars that a sighted person would use and that you wouldn't generally use.  Sometimes, you may find a feature you didn't know about you might want to use.  You can probably use it from the keyboard, though you may need to use it with object navigation.  You may be able to use screen review butt often not. 

If you stop speech with control when you're on an item, the object navigator will be on the item.  If you stop it a little before or after, the object navigator will not be on it, but it will be close.  But because of how objects are organized, you may find it easier to issue the command again, hear things read, and now that you know what you are looking for, press control as the item is read.

I hope you find this tutorial useful.  If things seem unclear, experimenting by moving around programs and going over and moving through the programs I've described moving in may help things become clear.

I think that object navigation is something that is puzzling to most people but as they work with it, with good instruction, it becomes clear.  I hope you find this to be good instruction.

On 2/16/2022 11:37 AM, Gene wrote:

I'm glad some of my tutorials have been gathered and are available in one place.  For those who haven't seen the previous discussion today, I'll be adding information to the object navigation tutorial.  I had intended to do so but I hadn't, in part because I was waiting to get my Windows 10 machine.  I wanted to see if certain things regarding organization were the same or similar before I discussed them. 


Gene

On 2/16/2022 11:24 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Mani,

Thanks for that reminder about Gene's tutorial and a big thanks to Gene for writing it.  Since he has said, on many occasions, that anything he posts can be shared, I have collected some of his tutorials over time and created MS-Word documents containing same.  All have full attribution to Gene.  I had not done this for the Object Navigation tutorial because something distracted me at the time, but I have now.

For those who want an MS-Word downloadable version of this tutorial so that they can "have it open and follow along" with somewhat greater ease, here it is:

Using Object Navigation in NVDA - G. Asner

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: NVDA and slack

Richard Wells
 

Brian: Does this link have an English version? I am interested in this topic, but I couldn't understand it.

On 2/16/2022 9:44 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Have a look at archive topic Slack for Windows Accessibility

[Would've helped if I'd actually included the link before hitting Send the first time!]
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: Problem with Windows calculator

 

Hi,

The Calculator add-on - or for that matter, early versions of Windows App Essentials add-on which included the beginnings of Calculator support - is a different thing than what we are dealing with now. When I introduced support for Windows 10 Calculator in 2015, there was no widespread use of live regions and UIA notification event wasn't even in the picture. The interface was different, too. As years went on, Calculator acquired UIA notification event support, and with Windows 11, UI changes were made (these are now part of NVDA proper).

the problem we're dealing with has to do with something that was introduced years after the first versions of Windows 10 Calculator appeared, namely UIA notification event which wasn't introduced until late 2017. Therefore, it is impossible (really) to go back and rewrite Calculator app support based on really early app releases (by the way, the latest Calculator release for Windows 10 requires Version 1803 (build 17134) or later, and we know that Microsoft no longer supports that Windows 10 release). As you suggested, fixing this will require a rewrite, but that rewrite must take the following into account:

  1. What NVDA includes now: as of today's alpha build, NVDA includes support for Windows 11 Calculator based on the code from Windows App Essentials add-on, complete with latest tweaks to UIA notification event handler for Calculator app module. The solution I have in mind involves rethinking this event handler, so it must include what NVDA does now versus a potential solution I may come up in June (see previous communication as to why I said June). I may end up completely rewriting UIA notification event handler for Calculator from scratch, which means I will need to come up with a strategy to tell NV Access that the newer solution should be preferred; that must wait until the newer solution is verified as working, which will take at least a month (stable channel users should report that the new solution is working as expected when implemented).
  2. Calculator changes: things can change in future Calculator releases, and I bet some of them may include changes to how UIA notification event is raised by Calculator itself. In some cases, the user interface may also change, necessitating a repeat of what I did with Windows 11 Calculator. At least folks can glimpse upcoming changes by reading Calculator app source code, but Microsoft can change app development plans.
  3. Windows as a Service: as I noted above, the latest Windows 10 Calculator release (10.2103) requires Windows 10 Version 1803, a feature update that is no longer supported by Microsoft. Realistically speaking, you can assume that anything earlier than 20H2 (build 19042) is considered unsupported (we have long-term support releases such as 1809 and 21H2 but these are meant for mission-critical environments, and 1909 is supported for enterprises until May). Therefore, we can't really go back to the original Calculator release and rewrite things from scratch as the host operating system (early Windows 10 releases) is no longer supported by Microsoft. As a result, the earliest Calculato release I can support is the one that's available to latest Windows 10 release, which happens to be 10.2103 and 21H2 for Calculator and Windows 10, respectively (this means we must deal with UIA notification event handler, something the earliest Calculator app module versions do not even talk about).

In summary, in response to the question of rewriting Calculator app support based on earliest add-on releases, the answer is "no" for the reasons outlined above. In the era of Windows as a Service, we cannot simply ask ourselves to go back to the early days without thinking about what's happening today, more so when dealing with apps that can change without notice.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016

Kenny Cheung
 

I tried it with Jaws, and not so good. It read the columns, but I haven’t tried navigating some of the ribbons with it yet.
Sent from Kenny’s MacBook Pro

On Feb 16, 2022, at 15:16, Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:

Boy, that sounds like a headache.  Have you tried these steps using Jaws?  If this same thing happens while using JFW. You might want to talk to someone who set you up with Microsoft Project.
 
Sent from Mail for Windows
 
From: Kenny Cheung
Sent: February 16, 2022 9:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016
 
Here are the steps I did to try and finish my assignment.
To set the start date for a project you have to go to:
1. Project
I open project
2. Project Information (this will open a dialog box with a bunch of fields)
I press ault and right arrow to the project tab and down arrow to go in to the ribbon. Then I right arrow to where it says project information
3. Change the date is the Start Date filed
I see a data grid that says custom fields, and when I try to arrow through it I can’t move at all. If I ault tab out of that window to outlook or some other program and ault tab back it becomes a editable combo box, or tab to where it says schedule from which is a combo box and shift tab back to start date, it becomes a combo box where I can type. I type in 2/16/18.
4. Select OK to complete
I press enter and end up back in the project document, I right arrow to where it says start and its blank.
 
To add a non-working day on a project calendar go to:
1. Project
I go to the project tab and down arrow to go in to the ribbon. I see Subproject  button, Get Addins  button, Project Information...  button, Custom Fields  button, WBS  collapsed, Set Baseline  collapsed, Update Project...  button, and Spelling...  button. Some of the buttons like change working time and links between projects, and schedule didn’t show up until I tabbed through the ribbon.
2. Change Working Time (this will open a dialog box with a bunch of fields)
I go to the project tab and down arrow. Then I press tab to working time, and after I press enter I’m in the exceptions control tab. It brings me to a data grid, and I try pressing the arrow keys and it says data item  selected  Name, and when I press right arrow it says data item  selected  Start
I press f2 on where it says named. I tried enter and it brought me back to the main document.
3. Select the date from the calendar that is in the dialogue box
I press right arrow to start and press enter, it brings me back to the document. I go back to the project tab and back to change working time. I press f2 to edit and put in 2/25/18.
4. In the Name field, type Nonworking Time
I put in Non-working time after I pressed f2 in the name field
5. Select OK to complete
I pressed enter and the name and start date columns are blank
To update file properties:
1. File
I press ault and left arrow to file.
2. Info
I down arrow to info
3. Project Information
I press tab to project information
4. Advanced Properties (this will open a dialog box with a bunch of fields)
Then I press enter on advanced properties
5. Complete the needed fields
I tried object nav with object review, and no luck, so I switch to screen review. I’m able to interact with the different fields I go to the subject field and do ault s, and put in to the subject field New book launch schedule. I do NVDA shift right arrow to get to manager and NVDA shift down arrow to interact with the field and do ault+M since I couldn’t press enter on it or NVDA enter to activate it. I go to where it says Company:  and put in Lucerne Publishing
 
6. Select OK to complete
I press enter and nothings in the main document. All the changes that I made from setting the start date to here are only in the boxes, and not in the actual project document.
 
 
Sent from Kenny’s MacBook Pro


On Feb 15, 2022, at 19:14, Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:
 
Oh okay. I hope Jaws works.
 
Sent from Mail for Windows
 
From: Kenny Cheung
Sent: February 15, 2022 3:58 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016
 
I haven't tried project on the mac, but I don't really want to pay for a subscription. all the Microsoft stuff is through my state agency.
On 2/15/2022 18:55, Arlene wrote:
I don’t blame you. It just may go that way. You may end up using jaws.  Have you tried using Microsoft Project with your Mac Pro yet? I see your sitnature saying sent from my mac pro. Smiles.  
 
Sent from Mail for Windows
 
From: Kenny Cheung
Sent: February 15, 2022 3:51 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016
 
Thanks. I’m starting not to like Microsoft Project.
Sent from Kenny’s MacBook Pro
 
On Feb 15, 2022, at 18:31, Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:
 
Oh no, try jaws tomorrow and see what happens. I had a situation where Jaws would not work for a course I took in 2019. But NVDA worked even before I switched to win ten while doing this course.  I thought it was because Jaws was too old and I had an updated version of NVDA. I had windows 7, jaws 14 and NVDA 19 or whatever it was back then.  Then that system bit the dust. I got windows ten witch I have now. I did update to Jaws 19 along with NVDA 19 as well. Still Jaws didn’t work for it. NVDA worked. I did complete the course using NVDA. You may end up using Jaws. Who knows so it goes. Good luck with Microsoft project 16. 
 
Sent from Mail for Windows
 
From: Kenny Cheung
Sent: February 15, 2022 3:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016
 
I'm going to try Jaws tomorrow and see how it goes. I'm looking for an add-on that will make using project 2016 easier because when I opened a knew project and tried putting in a start date I went to the projects ribbon and I went to the calendar section. their was a drop down box, and when I put in 2 /18/16 and shift tab to okay the date I put in didn't show up in the start date.
On 2/15/2022 17:59, Arlene wrote:
Hi, what type of addon are you looking for? You might want to look on the addons site in the meantime until someone answers your question.  Have you tried your project 16 using Nairator? Do you have Jaws for a back up screen reader if there is no addon when using project 16. 
 
Sent from Mail for Windows
 
From: Kenny Cheung
Sent: February 15, 2022 10:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016
 
Hi,
I’m taking a project management class and we’re using project 2016, and I was wondering if their are add-ons or some commands guide I could look at. I was doing a practice project and it wanted me to add an event as a exception for a no work day, and I had trouble doing that and trying to navigate the calendar to add a start date.
 
Sent from Kenny’s iPhone
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 


Re: Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016

Arlene
 

Boy, that sounds like a headache.  Have you tried these steps using Jaws?  If this same thing happens while using JFW. You might want to talk to someone who set you up with Microsoft Project.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Kenny Cheung
Sent: February 16, 2022 9:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016

 

Here are the steps I did to try and finish my assignment.

To set the start date for a project you have to go to:

1. Project

I open project

2. Project Information (this will open a dialog box with a bunch of fields)

I press ault and right arrow to the project tab and down arrow to go in to the ribbon. Then I right arrow to where it says project information

3. Change the date is the Start Date filed

I see a data grid that says custom fields, and when I try to arrow through it I can’t move at all. If I ault tab out of that window to outlook or some other program and ault tab back it becomes a editable combo box, or tab to where it says schedule from which is a combo box and shift tab back to start date, it becomes a combo box where I can type. I type in 2/16/18.

4. Select OK to complete

I press enter and end up back in the project document, I right arrow to where it says start and its blank.

 

To add a non-working day on a project calendar go to:

1. Project

I go to the project tab and down arrow to go in to the ribbon. I see Subproject  button, Get Addins  button, Project Information...  button, Custom Fields  button, WBS  collapsed, Set Baseline  collapsed, Update Project...  button, and Spelling...  button. Some of the buttons like change working time and links between projects, and schedule didn’t show up until I tabbed through the ribbon.

2. Change Working Time (this will open a dialog box with a bunch of fields)

I go to the project tab and down arrow. Then I press tab to working time, and after I press enter I’m in the exceptions control tab. It brings me to a data grid, and I try pressing the arrow keys and it says data item  selected  Name, and when I press right arrow it says data item  selected  Start

I press f2 on where it says named. I tried enter and it brought me back to the main document.

3. Select the date from the calendar that is in the dialogue box

I press right arrow to start and press enter, it brings me back to the document. I go back to the project tab and back to change working time. I press f2 to edit and put in 2/25/18.

4. In the Name field, type Nonworking Time

I put in Non-working time after I pressed f2 in the name field

5. Select OK to complete

I pressed enter and the name and start date columns are blank

To update file properties:

1. File

I press ault and left arrow to file.

2. Info

I down arrow to info

3. Project Information

I press tab to project information

4. Advanced Properties (this will open a dialog box with a bunch of fields)

Then I press enter on advanced properties

5. Complete the needed fields

I tried object nav with object review, and no luck, so I switch to screen review. I’m able to interact with the different fields I go to the subject field and do ault s, and put in to the subject field New book launch schedule. I do NVDA shift right arrow to get to manager and NVDA shift down arrow to interact with the field and do ault+M since I couldn’t press enter on it or NVDA enter to activate it. I go to where it says Company:  and put in Lucerne Publishing

 

6. Select OK to complete

I press enter and nothings in the main document. All the changes that I made from setting the start date to here are only in the boxes, and not in the actual project document.

 

 

Sent from Kenny’s MacBook Pro



On Feb 15, 2022, at 19:14, Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:

 

Oh okay. I hope Jaws works.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Kenny Cheung
Sent: February 15, 2022 3:58 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016

 

I haven't tried project on the mac, but I don't really want to pay for a subscription. all the Microsoft stuff is through my state agency.

On 2/15/2022 18:55, Arlene wrote:

I don’t blame you. It just may go that way. You may end up using jaws.  Have you tried using Microsoft Project with your Mac Pro yet? I see your sitnature saying sent from my mac pro. Smiles.  

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Kenny Cheung
Sent: February 15, 2022 3:51 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016

 

Thanks. I’m starting not to like Microsoft Project.

Sent from Kenny’s MacBook Pro

 

On Feb 15, 2022, at 18:31, Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:

 

Oh no, try jaws tomorrow and see what happens. I had a situation where Jaws would not work for a course I took in 2019. But NVDA worked even before I switched to win ten while doing this course.  I thought it was because Jaws was too old and I had an updated version of NVDA. I had windows 7, jaws 14 and NVDA 19 or whatever it was back then.  Then that system bit the dust. I got windows ten witch I have now. I did update to Jaws 19 along with NVDA 19 as well. Still Jaws didn’t work for it. NVDA worked. I did complete the course using NVDA. You may end up using Jaws. Who knows so it goes. Good luck with Microsoft project 16. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Kenny Cheung
Sent: February 15, 2022 3:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016

 

I'm going to try Jaws tomorrow and see how it goes. I'm looking for an add-on that will make using project 2016 easier because when I opened a knew project and tried putting in a start date I went to the projects ribbon and I went to the calendar section. their was a drop down box, and when I put in 2 /18/16 and shift tab to okay the date I put in didn't show up in the start date.

On 2/15/2022 17:59, Arlene wrote:

Hi, what type of addon are you looking for? You might want to look on the addons site in the meantime until someone answers your question.  Have you tried your project 16 using Nairator? Do you have Jaws for a back up screen reader if there is no addon when using project 16. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Kenny Cheung
Sent: February 15, 2022 10:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Using NVDA with Microsoft project 2016

 

Hi,

I’m taking a project management class and we’re using project 2016, and I was wondering if their are add-ons or some commands guide I could look at. I was doing a practice project and it wanted me to add an event as a exception for a no work day, and I had trouble doing that and trying to navigate the calendar to add a start date.

 

Sent from Kenny’s iPhone

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Using AnyDesk with NVDA

Janet Brandly
 

Hello all,

 

Thanks to everyone who has posted about this and thanks for the links to all the other tutorials. I can always count on you.

 

Sincerely,

 

Janet


Re: Setting Up a Gmail Filter to Ensure Groups.io Messages are Never Marked as Spam

Sarah k Alawami
 

Correct. All messages I’ve dealt with have the distribution list in the two field while the person’s email unless it’s been munged are in the  from field. This is true with about 99 percent of the groups.io address I deal with.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 9:10 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Setting Up a Gmail Filter to Ensure Groups.io Messages are Never Marked as Spam

 

Having said that, I would think that having the groups.io  address appear in the from line would be a rare practice among groups.  Regardless of the provider being used, I believe all the groups I have been a member of have had the sender's name and address in the from line or, in one group, just the sender's name. 

 

Gene

On 2/16/2022 11:03 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Across several of the blind and low-vision technology groups on which I participate, there has been a recent and clear uptick in reports of various email providers incorrectly spam-trapping messages from groups.io.

I can't help out folks who aren't using Gmail, but I do have a solution you can employ that tells Gmail to never mark as spam any messages originating from Groups.io (and that means that a groups.io group address is being used in the From: field for that message).  It also has the added advantage of constantly feeding Gmail's spam filtering algorithm additional data points from groups.io messages that your filter catches so that it's less likely that these will ever be marked as spam by Gmail.

Please read through the tutorial in its entirety before starting.  It's only two pages long, and the sections where I list all the filtering options can be skipped over for the next numbered step.  I included those only so those who prefer to tab their way through the page and listen would be oriented as far as what they can expect to hear.  You'll only be using the From criteria for the matching part of the filter and the Never mark as spam option for the action to be taken.

Setting Up a Gmail Filter to Ensure Groups.io Messages are Never Marked as Spam
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022