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Re: NVDA Features feedback
enes sarıbaş
AMD Ryzen 4800H processor, 8 cores, 32 gb DDR 3200 ram, 1 tb Samsung 970 plus SSD, windows 11 pro initial version.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 12/18/2021 2:28 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I've not had that happen knock on wood. What are the specs of your computer, and is this issue on github?
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Re: NVDA Features feedback
enes sarıbaş
Hi Brian, The issue in theory is easy to replicate. If you load a webpage
that causes Firefox to hang, NVDA will become unresponsive too. It
isn't necesary to go to a specific page or take specific actions. On 12/18/2021 2:35 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 03:12 PM, Jackie wrote:
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Re: NVDA Features feedback
enes sarıbaş
That sites taking a long time is an NVDA problem. For example, load
a webpage with many large tables on it, and you will see NVDA lag.
Crashes also are NVDA issues. Firefox isn't this unstable without a
screenreader. I don't keep cache in my browser, other than login
cookies.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 12/18/2021 1:45 PM, Gene wrote:
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Re: Showing a bit about object review
Louise Pfau
Thanks Gene. I've saved this in a word document in my tutorials folder for future reference.
Louise
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Showing a bit about object review
Gene
Given all the discussion of object review,
I’ve prepared a short, or rather short, tutorial teaching something about object
navigation and showing the difference between it and screen review.
Listening at a moderate speed, my guess is that it will take somewhere between
about seven and ten minutes to listen to. Of course, doing what I describe
will take a little longer or perhaps more, depending on how much you want to
play and repeat things to aid memory and perhaps understanding.
I hope some people find it useful.
Many people may be wondering what is being
talked about and this will give those who are curious some idea.
I hope it also encourages those who would
benefit from learning object navigation to do so. It may also demystify
the subject to an extent and give people more confidence that they can learn and
understand object navigation.
I think most, perhaps almost all, of object
navigation is better taught by having people do things rather than by mainly
explaining them.
This tutorial will teach something about
moving in an object and from one object to another object. It will also
show how objects can vary radically in size and it may clear up confusion some
people may have about when they are moving through an object or reviewing the
screen. I suspect a fair number of people may have this confusion.
I shall use desktop layout commands. I
don’t use nor know the laptop layout commands. Someone may want to provide
them.
We will use WordPad for our examples.
First, issue the command numpad insert plus
numpad 1 until you hear no previous review mode. That is to make sure you
didn’t use screen review and forget to go back. Object navigation is the
default but I want to make sure everyone is using it.
Now, do the following:
Open WordPad. Type a bit of text.
Now issue the close command. You are in the are you sure dialog.
Press the following keys and listen to all
speech.
Numpad 8.
Numpad 7.
Numpad 9.
Numpad 8 reads the current line in the object
you are in. You hear save.
Numpad 7 moves back one line in the
object.
You hear top, save.
That’s because there is no previous
line.
Numpad 9 moves you to the next line in the
object. You hear bottom, save because there is no next line.
This is a small object. It is only one
button. Button isn’t announced for some reason but it is a save
button.
Now, let’s move to the next object to the
right. Issue the command numpad insert plus numpad 9.
You have now moved to the next object.
It is a bit of text, the do you want to save question. For some reason,
this dialog doesn’t work as expected when moving to next and previous
objects. Usually, if you move to the next and previous objects, you will
get to the last one in the direction you are moving. At that point, you
will hear either no previous or no next.
To move to the right by object the command is
numpad insert plus numpad 9. To move to the left, the command is numpad
insert numpad 7.
Each time you move to another object, you can
use the review keys I showed you earlier to see if you can move around the
object and read the current line. That is, numpad 7, back line, numpad 8,
say current line, numpad 9, forward one line.
If you were using screen review, you would
use the same commands to review the screen, numpad 8, 7, and 9. You would
be moving in the screen, not specifically in an object.
At times objects are small as these are, at
times they are very large.
To see a very large or a larger object,
finish closing WordPad, then open a large document in WordPad. Either that
or open WordPad and type a number of lines of text.
If you use numpad 9 to move through the
document, you will find that you can move through the entire document. The
entire document is one object.
If you were using screen review, you would
only be able to move as far up or down as the screen that is now visible.
The command to go into screen review, if you
want to experiment, is numpad insert plus numpad 7. There may be another
mode, document review, but keep moving until you get to screen review.
Don’t forget to go back to object review when you are finished in screen
review. If you don’t, some things you do may not work as expected.
There are times when you can see things using
screen review that you can’t using object review. There are times when the
opposite is true. One isn’t better or more useful than the other, though
one may be of more use to a person, depending on how they use a computer, in
other words, what programs they run and perhaps, how they work with certain
programs.
I hope this short tutorial is useful.
Gene
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Re: NVDA Features feedback
Sarah,
This is a case where following your own, very direct, advice that you've given to others applies to you: RTFM (Specifically, the NVDA User Guide, Section 5.6. Review Modes). Just as there is auto switching between browse and focus modes, there is auto switching between review modes. Here is one very important tidbit: From Section 5.6.2: Note that NVDA will switch to document review from object review automatically when moving around browse mode documents. There does not seem to be an auto-switching into or out of screen review mode, or at least it's not documented in as direct a way as the auto-switching from object review to document review mode is. But the fact of the matter is that you, or any NVDA User, is in one of the three review modes at any given moment in time. And if you don't know which one, using the switch to next/previous review mode keystroke will cycle you out of the current mode you're in, and back into it after three hits if you continue in the same direction, or if you switch to next then immediately switch to previous you'll also have the mode you'd started out in identified. You're not doing yourself, or the readership, any favors by conflating all of the review modes into one big mismash. And my concern is less for you in this case than it is for the readership. Clarity about functionality within NVDA, to the maximum extent possible, is very important here. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043 The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment. ~ Dorothy Nevill
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Re: NVDA Features feedback
Nimer Jaber
Sarah, You seem to be missing the point that others are trying to get across to you. You don't seem to be using screen review. If you aren't switching review modes, and especially if you are simply using arrows to navigate, you aren't using screen review. I really suggest you take the advice that you like to give to others, and read the manual. This way, you can get a better understanding of the differences between object navigation, screen review, etc., and you can get a better understanding of how to invoke each mode, and when you might want to try using it.
On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 2:48 PM Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:
--
Best, Nimer Jaber Registered Linux User 529141. http://counter.li.org/ To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news. Thank you, and have a great day!
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Re: NVDA Features feedback
That’s the thing. I can be in screen review , route to a something, then read with the object curser all without switching views. I do this every single day for one of the softwares I use. I access the screen, find a load button, hit nvda home, then route to the tool strip and can use the object curser to navigate inside the tool strip, all without hitting nvda page up and down to switch to object view. I’m in the same screen all the time. I have not gone to the parent objects or even the parents of the parents
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 1:36 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
Again, you are using terms incorrectly. Screen review is not object review. You use one or the other. In object review, you can review an object. You use the same movement commands to review the object you are in as to review the screen. But you are either in one mode or the other and you are either reviewing the screen or the object you are in.
An object may be very small, one button, or very large, an entire document in Notepad. Using object review and staying in the same object, you can move through the entire document in Notepad. If you were in screen review, you would be limited to the screen being displayed. If you are in a dialog and on a button, using object review, unless you move to another object, you will only be in that button. The button is one object.
This is not to say that object review is more limited or less useful than screen review. There are times when you can get to things using object review you can’t get to in any other way.
Gene From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
No, in screen review if you use the object commands it is much much faster than in windows 8 which I used to use. Yuck!
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
In the below message, I said that screen review is often faster and more efficient when you want to move around the current screen and you can’t do so using Windows and program commands. I was saying that it is often easier and faster than using object navigation in that context. But with changes in Windows 10, I don’t know how often you can use screen review to move around screens and get information well. Others who use Windows 10 and 11 may wish to comment on that. Does my file properties dialog example still apply as an example where screen review works well?
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Gene via groups.io Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
You are using incorrect terminology and that is part of the confusion. By default, the object navigator follows your position as you move such as in a list or a document. I’m not sure what the correct term is but it tracks your position if it can when you move using Windows and program commands. So if you are on a button which you move to with the arrow keys or tabbing through a dialog, the object navigator will be there. That is what you are describing but using the wrong term. In screen review, while your position may change, it doesn’t change to match your current position accurately when you are moving using program or Windows commands.
Also, screen review limits you to the current screen. Object review doesn’t.
In object review with tracking on, which is the default behavior,if you move to a button in a dialog, for example, and you need to click it using the virtual mouse or using the perform default action command because the button isn’t properly accessible and the space bar or enter don’t work, the object navigator will be on that button in general. I’ve seen rare instances where the object navigator can’t track properly in part of a program.
There are times when screen review is faster and more efficient to use than object navigation if you are moving to parts of a program that aren’t accessible through Wihndows and keyboard commands. there are times when you can’t see something using screen review you can using object review and there are times when the opposite is true. There are times when you have to move out of the object you are in to get to what you want to get to.
and there are times when you use object or screen review to find information efficiently. If I want to find the size of a file, I open the file properties dialog. I then go into screen review, its much faster and more convenient in that dialog than using object review, jump to the top of the screen using the screen review command to do so, and quickly move down the screen until I get to the information. The alternative, letting the dialog read, is inefficient.
Screen review is similar to the JAWS cursor, though the commands are different. It is often faster and more efficient to use when you want to move around the current screen and you can’t do so using Wihndows or program commands.
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
Actually that’s not the case as much. When you do switch to windows 10/11 you will find this out. I switch to screen review, use arrows and tab as necessaty thern just read the objects as everything is tracked anyway. Now, they did change some stuff up just a few weeks ago but join the windows discussion list for more information on that one. For me screen review stays as the object is tracked and I don’t’ need to switch to object view to read the object my screen review cursor is sitting on. it’s very rare like maybe 3 times a week and in 1 or two programs, but not for the web or anything. I use the off screen model for that, unlesxs nvda tries to render off screen models for all of the apps we use.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
I thought that you never use object navigation and screen review. On reviewing your messages, I’m not sure what you use on the rare occasions when you use something.
I doubt many people use screen review or object review when they can do things with Windows or program commands.
However you use your computer, you may not use programs that require use of object navigation or screen review to any extent. But there are such programs. It is my understanding that Windows 10 apps usually require use of object navigation, at least to an extent. But those who use Windows 10 may wish to comment on that. It may not be as widespread as I believe.
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 10:04 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
Yeah, when navigating any app I don’t use object nav. It’s tab all the way, only when a button does not read do I switch to screen review then use object nav to see what’s up. You don’t need to actually switch to object nav in order to use the objects in question. It all works in screen review.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
I didn’t say that. When you can use Windows or program means of navigation that’s fine and I’m not saying object navigation or screen review should be used in such cases. I’m not being rude, but stating a fact, you don’t understand object navigation if you think you can just use the review keys and not move from object to object or up and down the levels of objects. There are times when an object is one small item and you can’t move to any extent just using the movement keys such as numpad 7 and 9. You must move using the move to previous and next object commands to move from one object to another in such cases if the objects are on the same level and you want to work with them. There are times when you may be in an object and the object you need to be in to work with whatever you want to work with is up one level or down one level from the object you are in.
Then there are times when an object may be enormous. If I open a document in Notepad, it doesn’t matter how large it is, it is all one object and I can move through the entire document with the object navigation commands such as numpad 7 and 9. I’m not saying there is any reason to move in that way in Notepad. I’m discussing how objects can be very small or very large. Screen review, on the other hand gives you the ability to move throughout the screen you are in. But there are times when you can’t get to things using screen review. Also, there are times you can’t get to things using object navigation.
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 6:15 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
I do, but you seem to say to do everything in object mode, or to switch to it. I’m saying, don’t switch to it at all. Just use your object keys if you have to, and don’t’ go switching views as it is not really necessary.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
You seem to think that isn’t what most people do. I think most people do use the arrow keys for most things or almost everything except where they need to use other means. No one has advocated using browse mode or screen review where arrow navigation is possible. But there are times when to get to something, you need to use the other methods.
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
Actually it kind of is not for me. I just use standard windows commands to get around, hardly do I use the 3 views mentioned, or two depending on where you are, unless I have to get inside of an object. That sounded weird when I typed that, but yeah, same with other screen readers, arrows all the way unless I need to use other cursers so to speak. I’m actually surprised nvda does not announce when it switches views. I think this would alleviate some of the confusion I have.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 01:43 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
-
5.6.2. Document ReviewWhen the navigator object is within a browse mode document (e.g. web page) or other complex document (e.g. a Lotus Symphony document), it is possible to switch to the document review mode. The document review mode allows you to review the text of the entire document. When switching from object review to document review, the review cursor is placed in the document at the position of the navigator object. When moving around the document with review commands, the navigator object is automatically updated to the object found at the current review cursor position. Note that NVDA will switch to document review from object review automatically when moving around browse mode documents. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043 The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment. ~ Dorothy Nevill
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Re: NVDA Features feedback
No, one of my hobbies is using inaccessible software. And I was taught by my trainer only tab, only shift tab and only arrows, and what ever jaws commands existed then in 2002.
I’m pretty Perficient at getting around mostly inaccessible software I use daily, one of which is ffmpeg batch. It is about 99 percent inaccessible as most buttons are not labeled, and you need screen review to kind of guess what they are in the screen you are looking at.
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Re: NVDA speaking numbers
On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 01:35 PM, JinYoun wrote:
I apologize for being ignorant on how to use NVDA, but I thought this group was to be able to ask questions as a beginner...- JinYoun, You have nothing you need to apologize for. This group is for asking questions by NVDA users at all levels. That being said, one of the first pieces of advice I give to NVDA neophytes is the one I also gave to you: Learn how to bring up the NVDA Commands Quick Reference and NVDA User's Guide because both are invaluable resources, particularly to the beginner. We all went through the phase of, "What's the keyboard command for . . . ?," where we had almost no clue for any given function. It's a natural part of being new to NVDA. But knowing how to fire up the Commands Quick reference, NVDA + N, H, Q, and the User's Guide, NVDA + N, H, U, allows you to find answers to even more than the most commonly asked questions just by bringing whichever is more appropriate up and doing a quick search in the document for a word (or two, or three) that are related to what it is you're looking for. You can often find the answer you're looking for independently in minutes rather than waiting potentially hours or a day or two for an answer on this group or other groups where NVDA may be discussed. That was the only point I was trying to make, not that your question was inappropriate in any way. But, now that you know how to bring up the Commands Quick Reference you'll be able to find quite a few of the answers related to commands in a few moments. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043 The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment. ~ Dorothy Nevill
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Re: NVDA Features feedback
Arlene
Yes! I’ve seen this happen with windows 7. Fire Fox crashes and NVDA is unusable.
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: enes sarıbaş
Sent: December 18, 2021 7:49 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
I have another request for NVDA new features. Firefox support needs a major overhaul. When Firefox crashes, NVDA shouldn't become unusable too.
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Re: NVDA Features feedback
Arlene
Hi, I say use what’s best for you and what you’re comfortable with. Weather its screen review or Object navigation.
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: December 18, 2021 11:39 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
Hi, Steve,
I sometimes use object nnavigation when I need to look for something I can’t find any other way. Yes, Sarah is doing herself and the rest of us a disservice by telling us that we should just use screen review and nothing else.
Rosemarie
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Steve Nutt
I use Object Navigation a lot, sometimes I need to in apps like Izotope, which is an audio restoration app.
All the best
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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 03:41 PM, Gene wrote:
- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043 The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment. ~ Dorothy Nevill
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Notes on Joseph Lee's add-ons: Add-on Updater mechanics, possible end of support for Windows 7 from my add-ons in 2022
Hi all, With the end of fall finals, I decided to look at the forum archives in hopes of answering some add-on questions raised in the last few days. Specifically, I’m posting this message in response to a thread about Application Dictionary compatibility and the maintenance window for most of my add-ons is coming to a close soon. Regarding Add-on Updater: some of you might be wondering about which add-ons Add-on Updater can check for updates. Add-on Updater can check for updates for add-ons registered on NVDA Community Add-ons website (addons.nvda-project.org). This means Add-on Updater cannot check for add-ons not registered there. In the past, in order to get an add-on registered on community add-ons website, it must go through a review by an add-ons community member. This process was simplified recently – all that the add-on author must do is provide the following when registering add-ons:
This information forms the basis of a pull request to be sent to NV Access to officially register new add-ons and/or update existing add-ons. Once registered, Add-on Updater will start checking for add-on updates without user intervention. But that’s only part of the picture: one of the things people look for when testing add-ons is compatibility, specifically the minimum and last tested NVDA releases the add-on is compatible with. Even if an add-on is registered on community add-ons website, if NVDA determines the add-on is incompatible with the version of NVDA you are using, then NVDA itself will not install the add-on. Add-on Updater will go further and will not offer updates to add-ons deemed incompatible for the version of NVDA the Add-on Updater is running on (this check is also done without user intervention); this is the reason why I announced the other day that Add-on Updater will not offer add-on updates for NVDA versions earlier than 2021.2 for some add-ons (notably mine), so to get updates for these, you must install newer NVDA releases. In relation to Application Dictionary, Add-on Updater cannot check for updates not only because the add-on is not registered on community add-ons website, the add-on itself isn’t compatible with NVDA 2021.1 API. I’m writing this explanation for three reasons:
Speaking of add-ons, I hereby announce that the following add-ons will end support for Windows 7 and 8.0 (not 8.1) as early as 2022:
Specifically, I expect the next (planned )stable versions of these add-ons will be one of the last releases to end support for Windows 7. This is so that whoever is going to maintain these add-ons in the future can work with simplified code. As for NVDA itself ending support for Windows 7, that’s not up to me to decide – that decision lies with NV Access (although you can taste what that would look like; coming soon). I’m making the above statement to prepare you for the day when NVDA will require Windows 8.1 or later (or for that matter, Windows 10 and later). Unless your computer is part of an organization that has elected to stay on Windows 7 and/or need to use it for development and testing purposes, I advise you all to move to a supported Windows release – Windows 8.1, 10, or 11 (and any future release). Windows 7 will be supported by Microsoft until January 2023 but if and only if the organization the computer is part of pays Microsoft for extended security updates (ESU’s); for everyone else, Windows 7 is no longer supported by Microsoft. Again let me make it clear that the decision to end support for Windows 7 from NVDA itself does not rest with me – it is up to NV Access to decide, and for now NVDA supports Windows 7. Cheers, Joseph
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Re: NVDA Features feedback
Gene
Again, you are using terms incorrectly. Screen review is not object
review. You use one or the other. In object review, you can review
an object. You use the same movement commands to review the object you are
in as to review the screen. But you are either in one mode or the other
and you are either reviewing the screen or the object you are in.
An object may be very small, one button, or very large, an entire document
in Notepad. Using object review and staying in the same object, you can
move through the entire document in Notepad. If you were in screen review,
you would be limited to the screen being displayed. If you are in a dialog
and on a button, using object review, unless you move to another object, you
will only be in that button. The button is one object.
This is not to say that object review is more limited or less useful than
screen review. There are times when you can get to things using object
review you can’t get to in any other way.
Gene
From:
Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback No, in screen review if you use the object commands it is much much faster than in windows 8 which I used to use. Yuck!
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 12:05 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
In the below message, I said that screen review is often faster and more efficient when you want to move around the current screen and you can’t do so using Windows and program commands. I was saying that it is often easier and faster than using object navigation in that context. But with changes in Windows 10, I don’t know how often you can use screen review to move around screens and get information well. Others who use Windows 10 and 11 may wish to comment on that. Does my file properties dialog example still apply as an example where screen review works well?
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Gene via groups.io Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
You are using incorrect terminology and that is part of the confusion. By default, the object navigator follows your position as you move such as in a list or a document. I’m not sure what the correct term is but it tracks your position if it can when you move using Windows and program commands. So if you are on a button which you move to with the arrow keys or tabbing through a dialog, the object navigator will be there. That is what you are describing but using the wrong term. In screen review, while your position may change, it doesn’t change to match your current position accurately when you are moving using program or Windows commands.
Also, screen review limits you to the current screen. Object review doesn’t.
In object review with tracking on, which is the default behavior,if you move to a button in a dialog, for example, and you need to click it using the virtual mouse or using the perform default action command because the button isn’t properly accessible and the space bar or enter don’t work, the object navigator will be on that button in general. I’ve seen rare instances where the object navigator can’t track properly in part of a program.
There are times when screen review is faster and more efficient to use than object navigation if you are moving to parts of a program that aren’t accessible through Wihndows and keyboard commands. there are times when you can’t see something using screen review you can using object review and there are times when the opposite is true. There are times when you have to move out of the object you are in to get to what you want to get to.
and there are times when you use object or screen review to find information efficiently. If I want to find the size of a file, I open the file properties dialog. I then go into screen review, its much faster and more convenient in that dialog than using object review, jump to the top of the screen using the screen review command to do so, and quickly move down the screen until I get to the information. The alternative, letting the dialog read, is inefficient.
Screen review is similar to the JAWS cursor, though the commands are different. It is often faster and more efficient to use when you want to move around the current screen and you can’t do so using Wihndows or program commands.
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
Actually that’s not the case as much. When you do switch to windows 10/11 you will find this out. I switch to screen review, use arrows and tab as necessaty thern just read the objects as everything is tracked anyway. Now, they did change some stuff up just a few weeks ago but join the windows discussion list for more information on that one. For me screen review stays as the object is tracked and I don’t’ need to switch to object view to read the object my screen review cursor is sitting on. it’s very rare like maybe 3 times a week and in 1 or two programs, but not for the web or anything. I use the off screen model for that, unlesxs nvda tries to render off screen models for all of the apps we use.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Gene
I thought that you never use object navigation and screen review. On reviewing your messages, I’m not sure what you use on the rare occasions when you use something.
I doubt many people use screen review or object review when they can do things with Windows or program commands.
However you use your computer, you may not use programs that require use of object navigation or screen review to any extent. But there are such programs. It is my understanding that Windows 10 apps usually require use of object navigation, at least to an extent. But those who use Windows 10 may wish to comment on that. It may not be as widespread as I believe.
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 10:04 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
Yeah, when navigating any app I don’t use object nav. It’s tab all the way, only when a button does not read do I switch to screen review then use object nav to see what’s up. You don’t need to actually switch to object nav in order to use the objects in question. It all works in screen review.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Gene
I didn’t say that. When you can use Windows or program means of navigation that’s fine and I’m not saying object navigation or screen review should be used in such cases. I’m not being rude, but stating a fact, you don’t understand object navigation if you think you can just use the review keys and not move from object to object or up and down the levels of objects. There are times when an object is one small item and you can’t move to any extent just using the movement keys such as numpad 7 and 9. You must move using the move to previous and next object commands to move from one object to another in such cases if the objects are on the same level and you want to work with them. There are times when you may be in an object and the object you need to be in to work with whatever you want to work with is up one level or down one level from the object you are in.
Then there are times when an object may be enormous. If I open a document in Notepad, it doesn’t matter how large it is, it is all one object and I can move through the entire document with the object navigation commands such as numpad 7 and 9. I’m not saying there is any reason to move in that way in Notepad. I’m discussing how objects can be very small or very large. Screen review, on the other hand gives you the ability to move throughout the screen you are in. But there are times when you can’t get to things using screen review. Also, there are times you can’t get to things using object navigation.
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 6:15 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
I do, but you seem to say to do everything in object mode, or to switch to it. I’m saying, don’t switch to it at all. Just use your object keys if you have to, and don’t’ go switching views as it is not really necessary.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Gene
You seem to think that isn’t what most people do. I think most people do use the arrow keys for most things or almost everything except where they need to use other means. No one has advocated using browse mode or screen review where arrow navigation is possible. But there are times when to get to something, you need to use the other methods.
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
Actually it kind of is not for me. I just use standard windows commands to get around, hardly do I use the 3 views mentioned, or two depending on where you are, unless I have to get inside of an object. That sounded weird when I typed that, but yeah, same with other screen readers, arrows all the way unless I need to use other cursers so to speak. I’m actually surprised nvda does not announce when it switches views. I think this would alleviate some of the confusion I have.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Brian Vogel
On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 01:43 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
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5.6.2. Document ReviewWhen the navigator object is within a browse mode document (e.g. web page) or other complex document (e.g. a Lotus Symphony document), it is possible to switch to the document review mode. The document review mode allows you to review the text of the entire document. When switching from object review to document review, the review cursor is placed in the document at the position of the navigator object. When moving around the document with review commands, the navigator object is automatically updated to the object found at the current review cursor position. Note
that NVDA will switch to document review from object review automatically when
moving around browse mode documents. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043 The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment. ~ Dorothy Nevill
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Re: NVDA Features feedback
Tyler Wood
Using object nav should be a standard practice. Claiming an application is inaccessible due to the need to perform screen reader commands that are not tab, shift tab, and the arrow keys is doing the screen reader community at large a disservice and giving developers incredibly misguided ideas regarding accessible practices and our abilities as users of technology. We already have plenty who think like this, and I personally think it's a huge shame. If you claim this is one of your hobbies, I suggest you take a look at the basic and more advanced NVDA training references available so you can give developers information which is more pertinent and correct. Telling someone you use screen review when you mean object navigation is an incredibly huge error when you're attempting to send issues in for a developer to fix. This is especially crucial when you're trying to give information pertaining to commands to a user who is struggling. This is just one of many discrepancies from you I've noticed lately, so perhaps double checking what you're typing would be advisable. This is a large list with multiple people who may experience the same issue. Information that is accurate is important. Having to route your mouse to a particular section of a page is not optimal, but it's becoming more of a standard every day occurrence that more people need to be aware of and learn to use. If said routing of the mouse is not functioning as expected 100% of the time, that's when you send in the issue to the developer.
On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 2:40 PM Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:
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Re: NVDA Features feedback
No, in screen review if you use the object commands it is much much faster than in windows 8 which I used to use. Yuck!
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 12:05 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
In the below message, I said that screen review is often faster and more efficient when you want to move around the current screen and you can’t do so using Windows and program commands. I was saying that it is often easier and faster than using object navigation in that context. But with changes in Windows 10, I don’t know how often you can use screen review to move around screens and get information well. Others who use Windows 10 and 11 may wish to comment on that. Does my file properties dialog example still apply as an example where screen review works well?
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Gene via groups.io Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
You are using incorrect terminology and that is part of the confusion. By default, the object navigator follows your position as you move such as in a list or a document. I’m not sure what the correct term is but it tracks your position if it can when you move using Windows and program commands. So if you are on a button which you move to with the arrow keys or tabbing through a dialog, the object navigator will be there. That is what you are describing but using the wrong term. In screen review, while your position may change, it doesn’t change to match your current position accurately when you are moving using program or Windows commands.
Also, screen review limits you to the current screen. Object review doesn’t.
In object review with tracking on, which is the default behavior,if you move to a button in a dialog, for example, and you need to click it using the virtual mouse or using the perform default action command because the button isn’t properly accessible and the space bar or enter don’t work, the object navigator will be on that button in general. I’ve seen rare instances where the object navigator can’t track properly in part of a program.
There are times when screen review is faster and more efficient to use than object navigation if you are moving to parts of a program that aren’t accessible through Wihndows and keyboard commands. there are times when you can’t see something using screen review you can using object review and there are times when the opposite is true. There are times when you have to move out of the object you are in to get to what you want to get to.
and there are times when you use object or screen review to find information efficiently. If I want to find the size of a file, I open the file properties dialog. I then go into screen review, its much faster and more convenient in that dialog than using object review, jump to the top of the screen using the screen review command to do so, and quickly move down the screen until I get to the information. The alternative, letting the dialog read, is inefficient.
Screen review is similar to the JAWS cursor, though the commands are different. It is often faster and more efficient to use when you want to move around the current screen and you can’t do so using Wihndows or program commands.
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
Actually that’s not the case as much. When you do switch to windows 10/11 you will find this out. I switch to screen review, use arrows and tab as necessaty thern just read the objects as everything is tracked anyway. Now, they did change some stuff up just a few weeks ago but join the windows discussion list for more information on that one. For me screen review stays as the object is tracked and I don’t’ need to switch to object view to read the object my screen review cursor is sitting on. it’s very rare like maybe 3 times a week and in 1 or two programs, but not for the web or anything. I use the off screen model for that, unlesxs nvda tries to render off screen models for all of the apps we use.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
I thought that you never use object navigation and screen review. On reviewing your messages, I’m not sure what you use on the rare occasions when you use something.
I doubt many people use screen review or object review when they can do things with Windows or program commands.
However you use your computer, you may not use programs that require use of object navigation or screen review to any extent. But there are such programs. It is my understanding that Windows 10 apps usually require use of object navigation, at least to an extent. But those who use Windows 10 may wish to comment on that. It may not be as widespread as I believe.
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 10:04 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
Yeah, when navigating any app I don’t use object nav. It’s tab all the way, only when a button does not read do I switch to screen review then use object nav to see what’s up. You don’t need to actually switch to object nav in order to use the objects in question. It all works in screen review.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
I didn’t say that. When you can use Windows or program means of navigation that’s fine and I’m not saying object navigation or screen review should be used in such cases. I’m not being rude, but stating a fact, you don’t understand object navigation if you think you can just use the review keys and not move from object to object or up and down the levels of objects. There are times when an object is one small item and you can’t move to any extent just using the movement keys such as numpad 7 and 9. You must move using the move to previous and next object commands to move from one object to another in such cases if the objects are on the same level and you want to work with them. There are times when you may be in an object and the object you need to be in to work with whatever you want to work with is up one level or down one level from the object you are in.
Then there are times when an object may be enormous. If I open a document in Notepad, it doesn’t matter how large it is, it is all one object and I can move through the entire document with the object navigation commands such as numpad 7 and 9. I’m not saying there is any reason to move in that way in Notepad. I’m discussing how objects can be very small or very large. Screen review, on the other hand gives you the ability to move throughout the screen you are in. But there are times when you can’t get to things using screen review. Also, there are times you can’t get to things using object navigation.
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 6:15 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
I do, but you seem to say to do everything in object mode, or to switch to it. I’m saying, don’t switch to it at all. Just use your object keys if you have to, and don’t’ go switching views as it is not really necessary.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
You seem to think that isn’t what most people do. I think most people do use the arrow keys for most things or almost everything except where they need to use other means. No one has advocated using browse mode or screen review where arrow navigation is possible. But there are times when to get to something, you need to use the other methods.
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
Actually it kind of is not for me. I just use standard windows commands to get around, hardly do I use the 3 views mentioned, or two depending on where you are, unless I have to get inside of an object. That sounded weird when I typed that, but yeah, same with other screen readers, arrows all the way unless I need to use other cursers so to speak. I’m actually surprised nvda does not announce when it switches views. I think this would alleviate some of the confusion I have.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 01:43 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
-
5.6.2. Document ReviewWhen the navigator object is within a browse mode document (e.g. web page) or other complex document (e.g. a Lotus Symphony document), it is possible to switch to the document review mode. The document review mode allows you to review the text of the entire document. When switching from object review to document review, the review cursor is placed in the document at the position of the navigator object. When moving around the document with review commands, the navigator object is automatically updated to the object found at the current review cursor position. Note that NVDA will switch to document review from object review automatically when moving around browse mode documents. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043 The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment. ~ Dorothy Nevill
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Re: NVDA Features feedback
Exactly. This is how I get the info in the about dialogu of the nvda. I use screen review to read it then objedt review while in screen mode to copy that particular line to the clipboard.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 11:40 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
You are using incorrect terminology and that is part of the confusion. By default, the object navigator follows your position as you move such as in a list or a document. I’m not sure what the correct term is but it tracks your position if it can when you move using Windows and program commands. So if you are on a button which you move to with the arrow keys or tabbing through a dialog, the object navigator will be there. That is what you are describing but using the wrong term. In screen review, while your position may change, it doesn’t change to match your current position accurately when you are moving using program or Windows commands.
Also, screen review limits you to the current screen. Object review doesn’t.
In object review with tracking on, which is the default behavior,if you move to a button in a dialog, for example, and you need to click it using the virtual mouse or using the perform default action command because the button isn’t properly accessible and the space bar or enter don’t work, the object navigator will be on that button in general. I’ve seen rare instances where the object navigator can’t track properly in part of a program.
There are times when screen review is faster and more efficient to use than object navigation if you are moving to parts of a program that aren’t accessible through Wihndows and keyboard commands. there are times when you can’t see something using screen review you can using object review and there are times when the opposite is true. There are times when you have to move out of the object you are in to get to what you want to get to.
and there are times when you use object or screen review to find information efficiently. If I want to find the size of a file, I open the file properties dialog. I then go into screen review, its much faster and more convenient in that dialog than using object review, jump to the top of the screen using the screen review command to do so, and quickly move down the screen until I get to the information. The alternative, letting the dialog read, is inefficient.
Screen review is similar to the JAWS cursor, though the commands are different. It is often faster and more efficient to use when you want to move around the current screen and you can’t do so using Wihndows or program commands.
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
Actually that’s not the case as much. When you do switch to windows 10/11 you will find this out. I switch to screen review, use arrows and tab as necessaty thern just read the objects as everything is tracked anyway. Now, they did change some stuff up just a few weeks ago but join the windows discussion list for more information on that one. For me screen review stays as the object is tracked and I don’t’ need to switch to object view to read the object my screen review cursor is sitting on. it’s very rare like maybe 3 times a week and in 1 or two programs, but not for the web or anything. I use the off screen model for that, unlesxs nvda tries to render off screen models for all of the apps we use.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
I thought that you never use object navigation and screen review. On reviewing your messages, I’m not sure what you use on the rare occasions when you use something.
I doubt many people use screen review or object review when they can do things with Windows or program commands.
However you use your computer, you may not use programs that require use of object navigation or screen review to any extent. But there are such programs. It is my understanding that Windows 10 apps usually require use of object navigation, at least to an extent. But those who use Windows 10 may wish to comment on that. It may not be as widespread as I believe.
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 10:04 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
Yeah, when navigating any app I don’t use object nav. It’s tab all the way, only when a button does not read do I switch to screen review then use object nav to see what’s up. You don’t need to actually switch to object nav in order to use the objects in question. It all works in screen review.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
I didn’t say that. When you can use Windows or program means of navigation that’s fine and I’m not saying object navigation or screen review should be used in such cases. I’m not being rude, but stating a fact, you don’t understand object navigation if you think you can just use the review keys and not move from object to object or up and down the levels of objects. There are times when an object is one small item and you can’t move to any extent just using the movement keys such as numpad 7 and 9. You must move using the move to previous and next object commands to move from one object to another in such cases if the objects are on the same level and you want to work with them. There are times when you may be in an object and the object you need to be in to work with whatever you want to work with is up one level or down one level from the object you are in.
Then there are times when an object may be enormous. If I open a document in Notepad, it doesn’t matter how large it is, it is all one object and I can move through the entire document with the object navigation commands such as numpad 7 and 9. I’m not saying there is any reason to move in that way in Notepad. I’m discussing how objects can be very small or very large. Screen review, on the other hand gives you the ability to move throughout the screen you are in. But there are times when you can’t get to things using screen review. Also, there are times you can’t get to things using object navigation.
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 6:15 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
I do, but you seem to say to do everything in object mode, or to switch to it. I’m saying, don’t switch to it at all. Just use your object keys if you have to, and don’t’ go switching views as it is not really necessary.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
You seem to think that isn’t what most people do. I think most people do use the arrow keys for most things or almost everything except where they need to use other means. No one has advocated using browse mode or screen review where arrow navigation is possible. But there are times when to get to something, you need to use the other methods.
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
Actually it kind of is not for me. I just use standard windows commands to get around, hardly do I use the 3 views mentioned, or two depending on where you are, unless I have to get inside of an object. That sounded weird when I typed that, but yeah, same with other screen readers, arrows all the way unless I need to use other cursers so to speak. I’m actually surprised nvda does not announce when it switches views. I think this would alleviate some of the confusion I have.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 01:43 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
-
5.6.2. Document ReviewWhen the navigator object is within a browse mode document (e.g. web page) or other complex document (e.g. a Lotus Symphony document), it is possible to switch to the document review mode. The document review mode allows you to review the text of the entire document. When switching from object review to document review, the review cursor is placed in the document at the position of the navigator object. When moving around the document with review commands, the navigator object is automatically updated to the object found at the current review cursor position. Note that NVDA will switch to document review from object review automatically when moving around browse mode documents. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043 The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment. ~ Dorothy Nevill
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Re: NVDA Features feedback
No, if I don’t tab I use obj view, but only if I have to. Then I’ll write to developers and talk to them about accessibility. Just had to do this at ioc.aavirtual.net as the only way to access anything is to route an doubled click to fly the menus out. I access inaccessible apps every day actually. It’s part of my hobby.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 11:35 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
Hi Brian,
I also say that using the other review modes shouldn’t be discouraged as Sarah is appearing to do, because it might be the difference between accessing an app, or not. I am guessing that if Sarah presses tab and gets no feedback, she probably thinks an app is not accessible, and that is doing her a disservice. I really think all review modes should be learned to at least a basic level.
All the best
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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 07:16 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043 The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment. ~ Dorothy Nevill
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Re: NVDA Features feedback
I’ve actually changed reviews and my arrows still work fine. I can get the same info when I change reviews and when I don’t change reviews. I’m not sure how, but I’ve always been able to.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 11:28 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
Sarah, you are using one of the review modes, whether you like it or not. As Brian said, most likely document review, since you are using system commands, as opposed to NVDA commands.
All the best
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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Actually it kind of is not for me. I just use standard windows commands to get around, hardly do I use the 3 views mentioned, or two depending on where you are, unless I have to get inside of an object. That sounded weird when I typed that, but yeah, same with other screen readers, arrows all the way unless I need to use other cursers so to speak. I’m actually surprised nvda does not announce when it switches views. I think this would alleviate some of the confusion I have.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 01:43 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
-
5.6.2. Document ReviewWhen the navigator object is within a browse mode document (e.g. web page) or other complex document (e.g. a Lotus Symphony document), it is possible to switch to the document review mode. The document review mode allows you to review the text of the entire document. When switching from object review to document review, the review cursor is placed in the document at the position of the navigator object. When moving around the document with review commands, the navigator object is automatically updated to the object found at the current review cursor position. Note that NVDA will switch to document review from object review automatically when moving around browse mode documents. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043 The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment. ~ Dorothy Nevill
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Re: NVDA Features feedback
Actually for me I get more info from screen review. It looks like a mess to some people but I can parse the information about 99 percent of the time. It’s actually quite easy. I just did this on an ffmpeg batch converter I use as the field was mislabeled even in obj mode. In screen review if you iknow where your curser is you can actually read most apps fairly easily then glean the labeling of buttons. This is not fun but sometimes it has to be this way.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tyler Wood
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 9:09 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
This is, quite frankly, 100% false, especially when it comes to Windows 10 and beyond. Object nav gives you far more information than screen review in most instances. I have no idea how you came up with this, to be honest.
On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 10:04 PM Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:
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