On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 07:09 PM, Brian Sackrider wrote:

for the blind chrome based brousers are kind of usless junk

-
Assertions like this are, quite simply, foolish and incorrect.  The
predominant browser in the world right now is Chrome, and there's ample
evidence of blind people using it on every blind-tech-focused group out
there.

It is a truism that certain sites will "play better" with specific browsers
at times.  And that translates over to how screen readers "play with" those
sites using those browsers.

If you give a specific URL on which others can experiment, there might be a
lot more information forthcoming about that particular page, and those
analogous to it, under the different browsers.  I know you said Lions
Magazine, but that's too vague.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

*The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.*

~ John F. Kennedy

Hi NVDA Users,

I’m planning to buy the nvda Eloquence & vocalizer synthesizer add-on for nvda from codefactory. Does any knows if the future upgrades for these two synthesizers are free or paid, and how much usually costs the upgrades?

I’m wondering if there’s a way to accomplish this?

I turned on some music, but I also wanted to read a document at the same time. I want the document to come through my headset, and the music to come through my PC speaker.

I know about the NVDA plus Control plus S command, but this would only seem to work in reverse.

Where I could listen to the music through my headset, but hear NVDA through the speaker, which is the opposite of what I want.

But every time I turn on my headset, my music and NVDA both come out of the headset. It’s the music that I want to change its audio output. Hope I’m making sense.

Konnie

I’m wondering if there’s a way to accomplish this?
I turned on some music, but I also wanted to read a document at the same time. I want the document to come through my headset, and the music to come through my PC speaker.
I know about the NVDA plus Control plus S command, but this would only seem to work in reverse.
Where I could listen to the music through my headset, but hear NVDA through the speaker, which is the opposite of what I want.
But every time I turn on my headset, my music and NVDA both come out of the headset. It’s the music that I want to change its audio output. Hope I’m making sense.
Konnie

Forwarded to add-on author...


Rui Fontes


Às 10:50 de 16/11/2021, Sim Kah Yong escreveu:

Yes. Thanks.


On 16/11/2021 6:46 pm, Rui Fontes wrote:

By last version of add-on, do you mean 2.2142.12?


Rui Fontes


Às 08:32 de 16/11/2021, Sim Kah Yong escreveu:

Hi all,

May I know if anyone encounters this problem with the above add-on for Whatsapp Desktop? The keyboard shortcut , Control + shift + T which is supposed to Say name of actual chat does not work for me. Most of the other shortcuts are working well. I want to thank the person who created this add-on which makes working with Whatsapp Desktop a joy.

I am using Windows 10, NVDA 2021.2 and the latest version of the add-on. Anticipating any response. Thanks.

Yes. Thanks.


On 16/11/2021 6:46 pm, Rui Fontes wrote:

By last version of add-on, do you mean 2.2142.12?


Rui Fontes


Às 08:32 de 16/11/2021, Sim Kah Yong escreveu:

Hi all,

May I know if anyone encounters this problem with the above add-on for Whatsapp Desktop? The keyboard shortcut , Control + shift + T which is supposed to Say name of actual chat does not work for me. Most of the other shortcuts are working well. I want to thank the person who created this add-on which makes working with Whatsapp Desktop a joy.

I am using Windows 10, NVDA 2021.2 and the latest version of the add-on. Anticipating any response. Thanks.

By last version of add-on, do you mean 2.2142.12?


Rui Fontes


Às 08:32 de 16/11/2021, Sim Kah Yong escreveu:

Hi all,

May I know if anyone encounters this problem with the above add-on for Whatsapp Desktop? The keyboard shortcut , Control + shift + T which is supposed to Say name of actual chat does not work for me. Most of the other shortcuts are working well. I want to thank the person who created this add-on which makes working with Whatsapp Desktop a joy.

I am using Windows 10, NVDA 2021.2 and the latest version of the add-on. Anticipating any response. Thanks.

Hi all,

May I know if anyone encounters this problem with the above add-on for Whatsapp Desktop? The keyboard shortcut , Control + shift + T which is supposed to Say name of actual chat does not work for me. Most of the other shortcuts are working well. I want to thank the person who created this add-on which makes working with Whatsapp Desktop a joy.

I am using Windows 10, NVDA 2021.2 and the latest version of the add-on. Anticipating any response. Thanks.

        I have an example of whear fire fox will and nvda will see somthng but chrome brousers don't.  The audio of the lions magazine in both edge and chrome there is no down it all button but in fire fox there is a down it all button.  I am not surprised about other things that fire fox sees that chrome brousers don't this is why I say that for the blind chrome based brousers are kind of usless junk and this is the reason that I use internet explorer for as long as I did as it was not a chrome based brouser.  I have windows 11 and there is no more internet explorer so I had to find a nonchrome based brouser and thats why i am using fire fox as my default brouser.

Brian Sackrider

I am increasingly finding cases where Firefox either sees things or does things that Chrome doesn’t when used with NVDA.  I don’t use JAWS and my demo is far too old to evaluate whether the same things occur.  But I think the question of whether Chrome-based browsers are working properly with sites in terms of accessibility should be systematically addressed.

 

Here are two examples:

First is this article from The New York Times;.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/15/us/rittenhouse-trial-closing-arguments.html

If you are at the top of the page and press s to move by separator, you will immediately move to cards giving background information on the story.

In Firefox, you see, at the end of the card, a button for previous card, unavailable since you are on the first card, and a button for next card.

Activating this button works.  It moves you to the next card.

To easily get to this card in a proper position to read it, press page up, then s for separator.

The previous and next card buttons both work correctly for this card and, I assume, for all other cards.

 

I tested with Chrome and Brave and neither of these Chrome-based browsers saw either button. I could read the first card below the separator but no buttons are displayed.

I’ve recently been looking up material on occasion using the Encyclopedia Britannica online.  When reading with Firefox, the page being read automatically shows new material as you move down it.  Firefox shows this new material when it appears.  Chrome-based browsers don’t. 

This article is an example:

https://www.britannica.com/art/television-in-the-United-States/The-late-Golden-Age

 

Search from the top of the page for the word nervous.  If you down arrow in Firefox, the text continues after some items, perhaps three or four.  Chrome-based browsers don’t load new material at least not accessibly to screen-readers.

 

Chrome-based browsers don’t see comments on Youtube pages where videos are streamed.  Firefox does.  Because the page changes as you move down it, you have to move down the page to see the comments.  You can’t just search for the word comment to get to the section.

 

I’ll add that all these comments are for my specific machine but I expect they will be generally experienced.  Verification, however, is necessary.

 

Are these problems with Chrome, with NVDA, or both?  I suspect that these problems are not improper implementation of accessibility.  Those questions, however, would require technically knowledgeable investigation to be resolved.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Gene

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 11:00 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

Since Firefox sees the checkboxes, I don’t know that its valid to assume what the problem is and that it is improper design.  Also, there may be cases where you will hear explanatory text that accompanies a structure read if you tab into the structure rather than move to it in some other way.  I haven’t compared Chrome-based and not Chrome-based browsers in these cases but again, is this improper design or just the complexity of design?

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Jackie

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 10:55 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

Yeah well, I'm not trying to be obscene here, but it's because the web
designers didn't use checkboxes that expose themselves, or, perhaps to
put it just a bit more succinctly, expose their state. & it is a royal
pita, & it's not unique to NVDA, though having said thus, sometimes
Jaws actually allows labeling of these graphics, whereas NVDA doesn't.
& it's not an issue specific to Chrome, either. It's actually called a
"clickable element" as opposed to a checkbox. Sighted folks generally
cant distinguish these from standard checkboxes, but they sure create
problems for us.

On 11/15/21, Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...> wrote:
> Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in Google
> Chrome? NVDA reads a lot of them, but some sites have a "remember me"
> checkbox on their login screen that just says "clickable"; when you
> press Enter where it says clickable, the box checks, but NVDA doesn't
> tell you this. I have seen websites that contain both accessible and
> inaccessible checkboxes, why is this? And several times (I have a
> memory of seeing this on the login screen of Palai), it doesn't read
> some of the checkboxes, such as "remember me", at all. It actually got
> to the point where I thought they had removed the checkbox from their
> site because it completely didn't read it, but users of other devices
> claimed they still saw the checkbox, but several of us Chrome and NVDA
> users noticed the missing checkbox. And as soon as I tried the same
> site with Firefox and NVDA, I saw the checkbox, but it said "remember
> me clickable" and therefore, though you could check and uncheck it,
> NVDA wouldn't tell you, while on Chrome, NVDA skips over the box. This
> was a problem with a website that I actually had to help out as far as
> accessibility; their site had some regular checkboxes on the form and
> screen readers could read it just fine, but then some checkboxes said
> "clickable" or didn't say anything at all, yet the Enter key worked on
> them but the screen reader didn't say. I've probably seen variations
> on this issue for a few years, some checkbox not displaying in Chrome.
> Often I would try it again with Firefox, and at least in the
> checkbox-related cases, it usually worked. And in the case of the
> website I helped make accessible, I even looked at the HTML for the
> checkboxes, and even the inaccessible checkboxes were still coded like
> checkboxes though they may have had some extra styling on them. So
> what's the deal with checkboxes?
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
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On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:01 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I mean I can press the capslock twice

-
Or you could learn the desktop layout, an option which you adamantly refuse to do.

Choices have consequences, as you yourself have observed on many occasions.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:27 PM, Jackie wrote:

Truthfully, I don't think the vast majority of web devs know the difference between clickable elements & checkboxes.

-
Jackie,

Even though his comment is meta-NVDA, I'll say not only is your observation accurate, but it's more than just checkboxes.  In the last couple of years it's become all the rage to present links not with click through text or a navigation structure, but such that they look identical to a button to a sighted user.  The only way I know that many of these are links instead of buttons is that I've accustomed myself to looking at what shows up in the browser status bar when I hover on them.

For someone such as myself, who tutors those new to screen readers, imagine how insane it was when that practice started, unnanounced, and I'm saying, "Navigate to the {insert what's presented here} button and activate it," when it wasn't a button and if the button quick navigation was being used to try to "bounce over" to it you'd never land on it.  Let us simply say that neither I, nor my students, were thrilled about this development.  Even though I know about it, I'm still not.  Masking one type of element as another is just not a good idea from purely a design perspective.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

I think it's important to keep things in context - NVDA has had TWO
releases which broke add-on compatibility - NVDA 2019.3 and NVDA 2021.1.
We have said that if we need to make an add-on breaking release we will
make it the first release of the year - but that also doesn't mean that we
will break add-on compatibility every year. We will avoid it where we can.

We are also quite open and give developers as much notice as we can about
upcoming breakages, and that I think has also had the effect of some of
that conversation filtering down here for instance and giving a perception
of things constantly breaking.

The recent NVDA 2021.3 Beta 1 which broke add-ons was NOT at all related to
this, but simply something which crept in and which was fixed in Beta 2 -
if anything that highlights exactly why it is important to test beta
releases and report issues with them - and still have a way back to a
stable release in case things don't work - but that is a separate
conversation.

We are aware of the impact that any breaking change has and are looking at
ways of minimising this in future - and we always welcome constructive
feedback. We'd also encourage all developers to document projects, ensure
they are updated on GitHub, and if you are planning to stop maintaining an
add-on, then let the community know, so that someone else can pick up the
project and continue it, or at least ensure it is updated to work with the
latest version when changes necessitate it.

Quentin.

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 4:24 PM Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:

I also agree with this.

With a lot I do a lot less work has been taken over by automation.

And while I accept users need to keep things updated, nvda is not linux.

Users shouldn't have to chace down devs and muck about if all they are
doing is using the software.

Now I will do this to be active but suppose you don't wana do that.

Suppose you just want to use the system.

I have several users that do stuff and it works.

If it doesn't after floundering round trying to fix their system often
with disasterous results they bring whats left to me to fix.

When I fix it, I ask them what their original issue was and what they did
to fix it.

Usually after researching and going on tangents they end up with a busted
system.

I get it, reformat it and it works again.

The issue is usually simple and easy to fix or in fact I may know where
to
go or get something that works but that is because I am a geek.

I have mucked about with, broken, totally screwed up and reformatted my
way in and out of trouble so many times I can more or less pick up what
the
intent usually is.

But a standard user just wants their stuff to run.

They don't care you need a password for it or an extra obscure key or
another program module they want to use their software with minimal fuss
and expect that it does.

I hhave often spent time dumbing down things so the user can use whatever
only to find I have to change things on the fly.

A general non geek, that isn't like 99% of us on here or at least a large
portion of us I am sure more more inteligent then myself I suspect.

Point is standard users want it to work and thats it.

I am not sying don't inovate but maybe where we can we need to have it so
users can use their stuff and keep the breakage rate down.

I realise that may mean having extra non secure stuff about but
eventually
things will be updated most devs or others will be found and things will
be
updated and it will work.

On that note I wander if there is an more automated way to add stable
versions of addons tothe update database on a more automated level.

And maybe a separate one for betas or something.

Its just a manual entry needs to be done once something is stable surely
there is an easier way.



On 15/11/2021 4:45 pm, Michael Micallef at FITA wrote:

I agree 100%



*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*On
Behalf Of *Mary Otten via groups.io
*Sent:* Monday, 15 November 2021 03:47
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] About inserting two features into NVDA that cannot
yet be used natively



CAUTION: This email originated from OUTSIDE the Government Email
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Having no computer science background, I can't comment on this from that
point of view. But I will say that as an end user who wants to get things
done, does not want to be more involved with the computer than I am with
actual productivity, I would like it if basic functionality that is used
by
most people could be part of the program, rather than having to depend on
add-ons. Its a hastle. For those who do this full time, good for you. But
for the rest of us who just want to get tasks done, forget it.



Mary



On 11/14/2021 6:44 PM, Gene wrote:

I think this is a non issue. For one thing, noone is talking about
;adding twenty, thirty, or more functions. Second, processors are so
fast
now that I don’t think adding a lot of functions would make any
difference. Also, I doubt that just adding functions would make a
difference even if processors were much slower because I doubt that a lot
of the functions would do anything except under very specific conditions,
thus not taking any significant amount of computer power.



Gene

-----Original Message-----

*From:* Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...>

*Sent:* Sunday, November 14, 2021 8:18 PM

*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io

*Subject:* Re: [nvda] About inserting two features into NVDA that cannot
yet be used natively



What proof is there that the more add ons that are running with nvda, the
more resources it takes? Would this not be the case the more that is in
core? I personally don't want nvda to become bloated, therefore I use the
add ons to Taylor my experience to what I need it to be.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On
Behalf Of Marcos Antonio Schllosser
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2021 1:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] About inserting two features into NVDA that cannot yet be
used natively

Greetings!

I would like to mention the insertion of two features into NVDA that I
use
a lot but I have had a lot of problems because these Add-ons need to be
constantly updated due to Python innovations.

1. Added the possibility for NVDA to pronounce copy, paste, cut and
select
when manipulating texts or applications. There are 2 Add-ons that were
developed for this but it would be very interesting if these functions
were
available natively in NVDA so we don't need to install this Add-on.

2. Inserting one more option in Dictionary preferences. It would be the
option of creating Dictionaries for specific applications. There is
already
an Add-on for this as well but it would be very interesting if this
functionality were built in natively in NVDA.

Because the less Add-ons we install the better the performance of NVDA.
And because I use it a lot, I can't give up these two features that I've
been using for several years.

I appreciate if you can insert more of these two possibilities natively
in
NVDA.

--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>