Date   

Re: Quitting NVDA - The standard "what do you want to do" dialog with combo box is not appearing. Why?

Gene
 

It is in the general settings and it is a check box.  The text says, Show exit options when exiting.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 1:37 PM
Subject: [nvda] Quitting NVDA - The standard "what do you want to do" dialog with combo box is not appearing. Why?
 
Hello All,

I have just encountered a situation while assisting another member of the group that I have never encountered before, and none of my NVDA mojo seems to be able to solve the issue.

Under all other circumstances I've ever dealt with, when you attempt to exit NVDA the Exit NVDA dialog appears, the "What would you like to do?," question is announced, and then the combo box with the options to Exit, Restart, Restart with add-ons disabled, and [at least for betas] Restart with debug logging enabled being the 4 choices.  Then there are the OK and Cancel buttons.   This behavior happens whether I use NVDA + Q or NVDA + N, X as my method of invoking exit.

On this particular machine, NVDA just exits, with no exit dialog presented, and apparently has been doing this for some years.  We just installed NVDA 2021.3beta2, and it occurs with this version, too.  This makes me very strongly suspect that there is some obscure NVDA setting, somewhere, that one can set to make NVDA always exit when the exit keystrokes are entered, but I'll be darned if I can find where it is.

If someone knows what needs to be tweaked in order to bring back the NVDA Exit dialog, please share.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Quitting NVDA - The standard "what do you want to do" dialog with combo box is not appearing. Why?

 

Hello All,

I have just encountered a situation while assisting another member of the group that I have never encountered before, and none of my NVDA mojo seems to be able to solve the issue.

Under all other circumstances I've ever dealt with, when you attempt to exit NVDA the Exit NVDA dialog appears, the "What would you like to do?," question is announced, and then the combo box with the options to Exit, Restart, Restart with add-ons disabled, and [at least for betas] Restart with debug logging enabled being the 4 choices.  Then there are the OK and Cancel buttons.   This behavior happens whether I use NVDA + Q or NVDA + N, X as my method of invoking exit.

On this particular machine, NVDA just exits, with no exit dialog presented, and apparently has been doing this for some years.  We just installed NVDA 2021.3beta2, and it occurs with this version, too.  This makes me very strongly suspect that there is some obscure NVDA setting, somewhere, that one can set to make NVDA always exit when the exit keystrokes are entered, but I'll be darned if I can find where it is.

If someone knows what needs to be tweaked in order to bring back the NVDA Exit dialog, please share.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: nvda vocalizer & eloquence synthesizer plugin

Gerardo Corripio
 

Here in Mexico it’s about $1400mxn hoever I got it not directly from Code Factory, but thought an online store “ATGuys” for $69usd. And yes I use Eloquence as my default voice too.

Gera
Enviado desde mi iPhone SE (2nd Generation) de Telcel

El 16 nov 2021, a la(s) 12:09 p.m., zvonimir stanečić, 9a5dsz <zvonimirek222@...> escribió:



Hi,

Eloquence and vocalizer package costs 59 euros.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Viris g. Rodriguez
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 7:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda vocalizer & eloquence synthesizer plugin

 

Just out of curiosity, How much does Eloquence cost? I would like to buy it. Also I was wondering how many languages it supports.
Thanks in advance.

----- Original Message -----
From: Chris via groups.io
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 06:28
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda vocalizer & eloquence synthesizer plugin

Free upgrades, no more to pay once you have bought the licence thats it

 

 

 

 

From: Michael Micallef at FITA
Sent: 16 November 2021 12:19
To: nvda mailing list (nvda@nvda.groups.io)
Subject: [nvda] nvda vocalizer & eloquence synthesizer plugin

 

Hi NVDA Users,

 

I'm planning to buy the nvda Eloquence & vocalizer synthesizer add-on for nvda from codefactory. Does any knows if the future upgrades for these two synthesizers are free or paid, and how much usually costs the upgrades?

 


Re: nvda vocalizer & eloquence synthesizer plugin

zvonimir stanečić, 9a5dsz
 

Hi,

Eloquence and vocalizer package costs 59 euros.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Viris g. Rodriguez
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 7:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda vocalizer & eloquence synthesizer plugin

 

Just out of curiosity, How much does Eloquence cost? I would like to buy it. Also I was wondering how many languages it supports.
Thanks in advance.

----- Original Message -----
From: Chris via groups.io
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 06:28
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda vocalizer & eloquence synthesizer plugin

Free upgrades, no more to pay once you have bought the licence thats it

 

 

 

 

From: Michael Micallef at FITA
Sent: 16 November 2021 12:19
To: nvda mailing list (nvda@nvda.groups.io)
Subject: [nvda] nvda vocalizer & eloquence synthesizer plugin

 

Hi NVDA Users,

 

I'm planning to buy the nvda Eloquence & vocalizer synthesizer add-on for nvda from codefactory. Does any knows if the future upgrades for these two synthesizers are free or paid, and how much usually costs the upgrades?

 


Re: nvda vocalizer & eloquence synthesizer plugin

Viris g. Rodríguez
 

Just out of curiosity, How much does Eloquence cost? I would like to buy it. Also I was wondering how many languages it supports.
Thanks in advance.


----- Original Message -----
From: Chris via groups.io
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 06:28
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda vocalizer & eloquence synthesizer plugin

Free upgrades, no more to pay once you have bought the licence thats it

 

 

 

 

From: Michael Micallef at FITA
Sent: 16 November 2021 12:19
To: nvda mailing list (nvda@nvda.groups.io)
Subject: [nvda] nvda vocalizer & eloquence synthesizer plugin

 

Hi NVDA Users,

 

I'm planning to buy the nvda Eloquence & vocalizer synthesizer add-on for nvda from codefactory. Does any knows if the future upgrades for these two synthesizers are free or paid, and how much usually costs the upgrades?

 

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Re: More granular reporting of font/style information?

Luke Robinett
 

Makes sense. Yeah I did set up a config profile for it but I didn’t know I could assign a hot key to it. That is nifty! I’ll play around with that and see if that gets me close enough to what I need. Thanks

On Nov 15, 2021, at 7:36 PM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:


There isn't currently a way to separate announcement of strikethrough from other font attributes.

The options I can think of (unless there is an add-on with more granularity?) are basically:

- Create an issue on: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues outlining the need and use case
- See if your team can change the way they report changes
- If the page doesn't have a lot of other font attribute changes, another option is to set a configuration profile with font attributes enabled, and assign it a keystroke so that you can enable that configuration easily.

See our recent In-process blog article on using Configuration Profiles: https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-19th-august-2021/#Profiles
Here's an older blog post which covered using Input gestures: https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-24th-july-2018/#InputGestures

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 9:46 AM Luke Robinett <lukelistservs@...> wrote:
Hi,
I need to know when text on a particular website has been formatted as strikethrough. I found that if I enabled the font attributes setting from the document formatting tab of NVDA settings this reports the strikethrough attribute, but it also reports all other attributes of fonts, which is way too much information. I just need to know when something is strikethrough because this is how my development team indicates a requirement that no longer needs to be considered when I’m reviewing a ticket. Is there a way to tell NVDA to only announce if the strike through attribute is present but otherwise behave as normal? If not, I may need to work with my team to get them to capture the information in a different way. I just prefer not to have to change everybody else’s processes if I can fix it on my end. Thanks.






--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 12:41 PM, Brian Sackrider wrote:
Fire fox is much faster than chrome my sighted friend told me that.  Sites come up much quicker in fire fox than they do in chrome
-
This can and does vary, widely, based upon a large number of factors.

I have not found any one browser consistently faster, for all pages all the time, than most others.  They all try to claim that they are in benchmarks, but what most of us do in day-to-day use is nothing at all like the benchmark tests.

And I've loved Firefox, and still use it daily, alongside Edge, Brave, Vivaldi, and sometimes Chrome.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Gene
 

That is one person’s experience and it can’t be generalized from.  Then there is the vfactor of accessibility.  It may be that the accessibility components that work with and in screen-readers changes which browsers load the fastest from sighted experience.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
 

    Fire fox is much faster than chrome my sighted friend told me that.  Sites come up much quicker in fire fox than they do in chrome.

Brian Sackrider

On 11/16/2021 4:32 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

It’s just a shame that Firefox is so slow compared with Chrome, certainly on all my machines it is.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io On Behalf Of Brian Sackrider
Sent: 16 November 2021 00:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

        I have an example of whear fire fox will and nvda will see somthng but chrome brousers don't.  The audio of the lions magazine in both edge and chrome there is no down it all button but in fire fox there is a down it all button.  I am not surprised about other things that fire fox sees that chrome brousers don't this is why I say that for the blind chrome based brousers are kind of usless junk and this is the reason that I use internet explorer for as long as I did as it was not a chrome based brouser.  I have windows 11 and there is no more internet explorer so I had to find a nonchrome based brouser and thats why i am using fire fox as my default brouser.

Brian Sackrider

On 11/15/2021 5:12 PM, Gene wrote:

I am increasingly finding cases where Firefox either sees things or does things that Chrome doesn’t when used with NVDA.  I don’t use JAWS and my demo is far too old to evaluate whether the same things occur.  But I think the question of whether Chrome-based browsers are working properly with sites in terms of accessibility should be systematically addressed.

 

Here are two examples:

First is this article from The New York Times;.

If you are at the top of the page and press s to move by separator, you will immediately move to cards giving background information on the story.

In Firefox, you see, at the end of the card, a button for previous card, unavailable since you are on the first card, and a button for next card.

Activating this button works.  It moves you to the next card.

To easily get to this card in a proper position to read it, press page up, then s for separator.

The previous and next card buttons both work correctly for this card and, I assume, for all other cards.

 

I tested with Chrome and Brave and neither of these Chrome-based browsers saw either button. I could read the first card below the separator but no buttons are displayed.


I’ve recently been looking up material on occasion using the Encyclopedia Britannica online.  When reading with Firefox, the page being read automatically shows new material as you move down it.  Firefox shows this new material when it appears.  Chrome-based browsers don’t. 

This article is an example:

 

Search from the top of the page for the word nervous.  If you down arrow in Firefox, the text continues after some items, perhaps three or four.  Chrome-based browsers don’t load new material at least not accessibly to screen-readers.

 

Chrome-based browsers don’t see comments on Youtube pages where videos are streamed.  Firefox does.  Because the page changes as you move down it, you have to move down the page to see the comments.  You can’t just search for the word comment to get to the section.

 

I’ll add that all these comments are for my specific machine but I expect they will be generally experienced.  Verification, however, is necessary.

 

Are these problems with Chrome, with NVDA, or both?  I suspect that these problems are not improper implementation of accessibility.  Those questions, however, would require technically knowledgeable investigation to be resolved.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Gene

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 11:00 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

Since Firefox sees the checkboxes, I don’t know that its valid to assume what the problem is and that it is improper design.  Also, there may be cases where you will hear explanatory text that accompanies a structure read if you tab into the structure rather than move to it in some other way.  I haven’t compared Chrome-based and not Chrome-based browsers in these cases but again, is this improper design or just the complexity of design?

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Jackie

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 10:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

Yeah well, I'm not trying to be obscene here, but it's because the web
designers didn't use checkboxes that expose themselves, or, perhaps to
put it just a bit more succinctly, expose their state. & it is a royal
pita, & it's not unique to NVDA, though having said thus, sometimes
Jaws actually allows labeling of these graphics, whereas NVDA doesn't.
& it's not an issue specific to Chrome, either. It's actually called a
"clickable element" as opposed to a checkbox. Sighted folks generally
cant distinguish these from standard checkboxes, but they sure create
problems for us.

On 11/15/21, Tyler Zahnke mailto:programmer651@... wrote:
> Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in Google
> Chrome? NVDA reads a lot of them, but some sites have a "remember me"
> checkbox on their login screen that just says "clickable"; when you
> press Enter where it says clickable, the box checks, but NVDA doesn't
> tell you this. I have seen websites that contain both accessible and
> inaccessible checkboxes, why is this? And several times (I have a
> memory of seeing this on the login screen of Palai), it doesn't read
> some of the checkboxes, such as "remember me", at all. It actually got
> to the point where I thought they had removed the checkbox from their
> site because it completely didn't read it, but users of other devices
> claimed they still saw the checkbox, but several of us Chrome and NVDA
> users noticed the missing checkbox. And as soon as I tried the same
> site with Firefox and NVDA, I saw the checkbox, but it said "remember
> me clickable" and therefore, though you could check and uncheck it,
> NVDA wouldn't tell you, while on Chrome, NVDA skips over the box. This
> was a problem with a website that I actually had to help out as far as
> accessibility; their site had some regular checkboxes on the form and
> screen readers could read it just fine, but then some checkboxes said
> "clickable" or didn't say anything at all, yet the Enter key worked on
> them but the screen reader didn't say. I've probably seen variations
> on this issue for a few years, some checkbox not displaying in Chrome.
> Often I would try it again with Firefox, and at least in the
> checkbox-related cases, it usually worked. And in the case of the
> website I helped make accessible, I even looked at the HTML for the
> checkboxes, and even the inaccessible checkboxes were still coded like
> checkboxes though they may have had some extra styling on them. So
> what's the deal with checkboxes?
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 12:32 PM, Gene wrote:
Sighted people don’t just see input fields and I strongly believe that blind people shouldn’t put themselves at a disadvantage by just tabbing, as many blind people do, through unfamiliar forms.
-
While I'm 100% in agreement with you, as my last message indicated, this is a choice.  Whether it's by changing screen reader defaults, choosing to do a Read All from the top of the page either before or after tabbing around or after a control you've landed in, it is a choice by the user about whether they do, or do not, review the page content.

There is no way this can be changed by changing default screen reader behavior.  It's something a screen reader user must learn to do and choose to do, regardless of the "how" based on the way they have their screen reader settings configured.

There is some "information blackout" that is terribly, terribly hard to overcome.  But just doing a page review, once, on a new-to-you page you will be visiting again and again and again is always a good idea.  Mind you, I'm talking pages that don't change.  Something like a newspaper is something you're likely to do a broader review on anyway, but still the "quick and dirty" perusal will likely be using either headings or links to get today's lay of the land.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Brian Sackrider
 

    Fire fox is much faster than chrome my sighted friend told me that.  Sites come up much quicker in fire fox than they do in chrome.

Brian Sackrider

On 11/16/2021 4:32 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

It’s just a shame that Firefox is so slow compared with Chrome, certainly on all my machines it is.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Sackrider
Sent: 16 November 2021 00:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

        I have an example of whear fire fox will and nvda will see somthng but chrome brousers don't.  The audio of the lions magazine in both edge and chrome there is no down it all button but in fire fox there is a down it all button.  I am not surprised about other things that fire fox sees that chrome brousers don't this is why I say that for the blind chrome based brousers are kind of usless junk and this is the reason that I use internet explorer for as long as I did as it was not a chrome based brouser.  I have windows 11 and there is no more internet explorer so I had to find a nonchrome based brouser and thats why i am using fire fox as my default brouser.

Brian Sackrider

On 11/15/2021 5:12 PM, Gene wrote:

I am increasingly finding cases where Firefox either sees things or does things that Chrome doesn’t when used with NVDA.  I don’t use JAWS and my demo is far too old to evaluate whether the same things occur.  But I think the question of whether Chrome-based browsers are working properly with sites in terms of accessibility should be systematically addressed.

 

Here are two examples:

First is this article from The New York Times;.

If you are at the top of the page and press s to move by separator, you will immediately move to cards giving background information on the story.

In Firefox, you see, at the end of the card, a button for previous card, unavailable since you are on the first card, and a button for next card.

Activating this button works.  It moves you to the next card.

To easily get to this card in a proper position to read it, press page up, then s for separator.

The previous and next card buttons both work correctly for this card and, I assume, for all other cards.

 

I tested with Chrome and Brave and neither of these Chrome-based browsers saw either button. I could read the first card below the separator but no buttons are displayed.


I’ve recently been looking up material on occasion using the Encyclopedia Britannica online.  When reading with Firefox, the page being read automatically shows new material as you move down it.  Firefox shows this new material when it appears.  Chrome-based browsers don’t. 

This article is an example:

 

Search from the top of the page for the word nervous.  If you down arrow in Firefox, the text continues after some items, perhaps three or four.  Chrome-based browsers don’t load new material at least not accessibly to screen-readers.

 

Chrome-based browsers don’t see comments on Youtube pages where videos are streamed.  Firefox does.  Because the page changes as you move down it, you have to move down the page to see the comments.  You can’t just search for the word comment to get to the section.

 

I’ll add that all these comments are for my specific machine but I expect they will be generally experienced.  Verification, however, is necessary.

 

Are these problems with Chrome, with NVDA, or both?  I suspect that these problems are not improper implementation of accessibility.  Those questions, however, would require technically knowledgeable investigation to be resolved.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Gene

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 11:00 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

Since Firefox sees the checkboxes, I don’t know that its valid to assume what the problem is and that it is improper design.  Also, there may be cases where you will hear explanatory text that accompanies a structure read if you tab into the structure rather than move to it in some other way.  I haven’t compared Chrome-based and not Chrome-based browsers in these cases but again, is this improper design or just the complexity of design?

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Jackie

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 10:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

Yeah well, I'm not trying to be obscene here, but it's because the web
designers didn't use checkboxes that expose themselves, or, perhaps to
put it just a bit more succinctly, expose their state. & it is a royal
pita, & it's not unique to NVDA, though having said thus, sometimes
Jaws actually allows labeling of these graphics, whereas NVDA doesn't.
& it's not an issue specific to Chrome, either. It's actually called a
"clickable element" as opposed to a checkbox. Sighted folks generally
cant distinguish these from standard checkboxes, but they sure create
problems for us.

On 11/15/21, Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...> wrote:
> Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in Google
> Chrome? NVDA reads a lot of them, but some sites have a "remember me"
> checkbox on their login screen that just says "clickable"; when you
> press Enter where it says clickable, the box checks, but NVDA doesn't
> tell you this. I have seen websites that contain both accessible and
> inaccessible checkboxes, why is this? And several times (I have a
> memory of seeing this on the login screen of Palai), it doesn't read
> some of the checkboxes, such as "remember me", at all. It actually got
> to the point where I thought they had removed the checkbox from their
> site because it completely didn't read it, but users of other devices
> claimed they still saw the checkbox, but several of us Chrome and NVDA
> users noticed the missing checkbox. And as soon as I tried the same
> site with Firefox and NVDA, I saw the checkbox, but it said "remember
> me clickable" and therefore, though you could check and uncheck it,
> NVDA wouldn't tell you, while on Chrome, NVDA skips over the box. This
> was a problem with a website that I actually had to help out as far as
> accessibility; their site had some regular checkboxes on the form and
> screen readers could read it just fine, but then some checkboxes said
> "clickable" or didn't say anything at all, yet the Enter key worked on
> them but the screen reader didn't say. I've probably seen variations
> on this issue for a few years, some checkbox not displaying in Chrome.
> Often I would try it again with Firefox, and at least in the
> checkbox-related cases, it usually worked. And in the case of the
> website I helped make accessible, I even looked at the HTML for the
> checkboxes, and even the inaccessible checkboxes were still coded like
> checkboxes though they may have had some extra styling on them. So
> what's the deal with checkboxes?
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 12:24 PM, Gene wrote:
If you tab you will move and the mode will automatically switch.
-
No, Gene, it doesn't.  Tab shoots you to the next control you can interact with, and you're still in forms mode.  When you hit the end of the page it will circle back to the top.

The login page being discussed is short enough that a brute force tabbing doesn't take much more than 30 seconds, tops, but I do not go into browse mode unless I force it.

And, no matter what you do, you can miss content.  In the vast majority of cases, when you're dealing with an online form, and a login screen is really just that, the things of highest import are the various controls you can interact with (and that, of course, are defined as visible).

I know that you have a predisposition to not liking automatic mode changing, and that's fine, but for most users, most of the time, maximum efficiency in traversing the things they can interact with is of primary importance.  That's one reason, among many, that folks should NOT explore an unfamiliar page for the first time strictly by brute force tabbing.  There will always be other information available that you should know about before acting on that page for the first time.

And in the case of this specific login page, it matters not one bit whether you're in browse mode and do a "read all" or are down arrowing on the page in a Chromium-based browser.  The Remember Me control is not being announced, and until I hear otherwise I have to believe that's because the attribute for hidden is turned on and that the browser is honoring it at all times for Chromium-based browsers and selectively honoring it in Firefox.

As far as your objections go, and I'm not saying they're wrong, it is still a classic case of no matter what defaults are chosen, someone is not going to like them.  These defaults have been in place for years, the default state can be shut off, and the default behavior is pretty much exactly the same in JAWS.  This is a case where this consistency across products is so well known that messing with the defaults now is just not a good idea.
--

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The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Gene
 

You never know when you may see text between form fields instructing you on how to fill out this or that field or giving information on what you are about to fill out.  Sighted people don’t just see input fields and I strongly believe that blind people shouldn’t put themselves at a disadvantage by just tabbing, as many blind people do, through unfamiliar forms.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
 
Yeah, even in 2005 when NVDA didn't exist, no matter what screen
reader I was using, I always went into focus mode for input elements,
and as soon as I was done filling it, went to browse mode to keep
reading; I guess I just like looking at the sites I visit, but perhaps
that's just me.

On 11/16/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
> Tyler,
>
> That worked.  Forcing NVDA out of focus mode and into browse mode prior to
> down arrowing from the password edit box does get, "Clickable, remember me,"
> announced when using Firefox.  And hitting either the spacebar or enter
> toggles the remember me checkbox from off to on for the first press and does
> the standard off, on, off, on with any subsequent presses.
>
> And the lack of that behavior under Chromium based browsers is consistent.
> A down arrow from the password box after going back into browse mode takes
> you straight to the, "By continuing," line.
>
> I still suspect this has to do with what each respective browser does with
> respect to the hidden attribute.  It appears that under Chomium browsers,
> that attribute is persistent, while in Firefox for some reason it's not.
> And if that's the case, and it may not be, then either Firefox or
> Chrome/Chromium-based browsers are wrong about how they are handling that
> object.  This is not something that should be inconsistent, and my gut tells
> me that Firefox is misbehaving.  But those far better versed than myself
> both in what web browsers are supposed to honor as far as what gets exposed
> to a screen reader based upon attributes and what NVDA itself is doing
> "under the hood" would have to speak to that.
> --
>
> Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043
>
> *The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.*
>
> ~ John F. Kennedy
>
>
>
>
>
>





Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Tyler Zahnke
 

That's why I have the setting enables about focus mode for focusable
elements, so I'm in forms mode when entering an edit box, and the mode
switches automatically when I arrow down; now if you go into forms
mode manually, you're right, the switch doesn't happen. One time I got
a computer that came with NVDA, and the "focus mode for focusable
elements" was default, so now I always change it to that when setting
up.

On 11/16/21, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
This discussion illustrates the major flaw in the way automatic switching of
modes is implemented. Modes aren’t automatically switched when you down
arrow from forms mode to browse mode. If you are in forms mode and you up
or down arrow, you will remain in forms mode. Thus, you will not move from
where you are. If you tab you will move and the mode will automatically
switch. This is a built-in bias that encourages tabbing through forms,
which is often the behavior you miss content by doing. I’m not saying that
is the intent of the design, but that is an important effect.

To be consistent and not encourage tabbing over arrowing, automatic
switching should occur when you up and down arrow as well as when you tab.
Making this change would eliminate my major objection to automatic
switching.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Tyler Zahnke
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 11:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google
Chrome

Let's see.
I'm in Firefox with NVDA, I just checked my window and it is maximized
(I went into the system menu and maximize is unavailable so that must
mean the window is already maximized). So I scroll down the page.
There's the email address box. Sometimes, when I try to arrow down
past the email address box, it tries to autofill it. So perhaps it's
trying to autofill your password box (it doesn't do this for me). So
maybe your step would be more like this; maybe get out of the password
box input mode, whether NVDA+Space or pressing Escape, either one, so
now you're on the password box without being in it, and then arrow
down, and it reads the word "remember me". Or, if it's easier, arrow
up from the "log in" button.

On 11/16/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 11:53 AM, Tyler Zahnke wrote:


Firefox does not read whether the checkbox is checked or not, it's
just the words "remember me" are being read if I arrow down from the
password box,
-
Truly, I am not trying to be difficult, but I do not understand exactly
what
you mean or are doing. If I'm sitting in the password box, in Firefox,
using down arrow does not get me out of that box.

There is something specific about the exact sequence of steps you are
using
that I am not hitting upon in my experimentation. I can't replicate the
success you've had even with just the announcement of "Remember Me" unless
I
use "the sighted way" with the mouse. I'd like to be able to replicate
your
experience for my own education, and how you do this may be relevant to
other situations.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

*The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.*

~ John F. Kennedy














Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Gene
 

This discussion illustrates the major flaw in the way automatic switching of modes is implemented.  Modes aren’t automatically switched when you down arrow from forms mode to browse mode.  If you are in forms mode and you up or down arrow, you will remain in forms mode.  Thus, you will not move from where you are.  If you tab you will move and the mode will automatically switch.  This is a built-in bias that encourages tabbing through forms, which is often the behavior you miss content by doing.  I’m not saying that is the intent of the design, but that is an important effect. 
 
To be consistent and not encourage tabbing over arrowing, automatic switching should occur when you up and down arrow as well as when you tab.  Making this change would eliminate my major objection to automatic switching.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
 
Let's see.
I'm in Firefox with NVDA, I just checked my window and it is maximized
(I went into the system menu and maximize is unavailable so that must
mean the window is already maximized). So I scroll down the page.
There's the email address box. Sometimes, when I try to arrow down
past the email address box, it tries to autofill it. So perhaps it's
trying to autofill your password box (it doesn't do this for me). So
maybe your step would be more like this; maybe get out of the password
box input mode, whether NVDA+Space or pressing Escape, either one, so
now you're on the password box without being in it, and then arrow
down, and it reads the word "remember me". Or, if it's easier, arrow
up from the "log in" button.

On 11/16/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 11:53 AM, Tyler Zahnke wrote:
>
>>
>> Firefox does not read whether the checkbox is checked or not, it's
>> just the words "remember me" are being read if I arrow down from the
>> password box,
>
> -
> Truly, I am not trying to be difficult, but I do not understand exactly what
> you mean or are doing.  If I'm sitting in the password box, in Firefox,
> using down arrow does not get me out of that box.
>
> There is something specific about the exact sequence of steps you are using
> that I am not hitting upon in my experimentation.  I can't replicate the
> success you've had even with just the announcement of "Remember Me" unless I
> use "the sighted way" with the mouse.  I'd like to be able to replicate your
> experience for my own education, and how you do this may be relevant to
> other situations.
> --
>
> Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043
>
> *The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.*
>
> ~ John F. Kennedy
>
>
>
>
>
>





Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Tyler Zahnke
 

Yeah, even in 2005 when NVDA didn't exist, no matter what screen
reader I was using, I always went into focus mode for input elements,
and as soon as I was done filling it, went to browse mode to keep
reading; I guess I just like looking at the sites I visit, but perhaps
that's just me.

On 11/16/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
Tyler,

That worked.  Forcing NVDA out of focus mode and into browse mode prior to
down arrowing from the password edit box does get, "Clickable, remember me,"
announced when using Firefox.  And hitting either the spacebar or enter
toggles the remember me checkbox from off to on for the first press and does
the standard off, on, off, on with any subsequent presses.

And the lack of that behavior under Chromium based browsers is consistent.
A down arrow from the password box after going back into browse mode takes
you straight to the, "By continuing," line.

I still suspect this has to do with what each respective browser does with
respect to the hidden attribute.  It appears that under Chomium browsers,
that attribute is persistent, while in Firefox for some reason it's not.
And if that's the case, and it may not be, then either Firefox or
Chrome/Chromium-based browsers are wrong about how they are handling that
object.  This is not something that should be inconsistent, and my gut tells
me that Firefox is misbehaving.  But those far better versed than myself
both in what web browsers are supposed to honor as far as what gets exposed
to a screen reader based upon attributes and what NVDA itself is doing
"under the hood" would have to speak to that.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

*The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.*

~ John F. Kennedy






Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

Tyler,

That worked.  Forcing NVDA out of focus mode and into browse mode prior to down arrowing from the password edit box does get, "Clickable, remember me," announced when using Firefox.  And hitting either the spacebar or enter toggles the remember me checkbox from off to on for the first press and does the standard off, on, off, on with any subsequent presses.

And the lack of that behavior under Chromium based browsers is consistent.  A down arrow from the password box after going back into browse mode takes you straight to the, "By continuing," line.

I still suspect this has to do with what each respective browser does with respect to the hidden attribute.  It appears that under Chomium browsers, that attribute is persistent, while in Firefox for some reason it's not.  And if that's the case, and it may not be, then either Firefox or Chrome/Chromium-based browsers are wrong about how they are handling that object.  This is not something that should be inconsistent, and my gut tells me that Firefox is misbehaving.  But those far better versed than myself both in what web browsers are supposed to honor as far as what gets exposed to a screen reader based upon attributes and what NVDA itself is doing "under the hood" would have to speak to that.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Tyler Zahnke
 

Let's see.
I'm in Firefox with NVDA, I just checked my window and it is maximized
(I went into the system menu and maximize is unavailable so that must
mean the window is already maximized). So I scroll down the page.
There's the email address box. Sometimes, when I try to arrow down
past the email address box, it tries to autofill it. So perhaps it's
trying to autofill your password box (it doesn't do this for me). So
maybe your step would be more like this; maybe get out of the password
box input mode, whether NVDA+Space or pressing Escape, either one, so
now you're on the password box without being in it, and then arrow
down, and it reads the word "remember me". Or, if it's easier, arrow
up from the "log in" button.

On 11/16/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 11:53 AM, Tyler Zahnke wrote:


Firefox does not read whether the checkbox is checked or not, it's
just the words "remember me" are being read if I arrow down from the
password box,
-
Truly, I am not trying to be difficult, but I do not understand exactly what
you mean or are doing.  If I'm sitting in the password box, in Firefox,
using down arrow does not get me out of that box.

There is something specific about the exact sequence of steps you are using
that I am not hitting upon in my experimentation.  I can't replicate the
success you've had even with just the announcement of "Remember Me" unless I
use "the sighted way" with the mouse.  I'd like to be able to replicate your
experience for my own education, and how you do this may be relevant to
other situations.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

*The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.*

~ John F. Kennedy






Re: shopping at instacart

 

Jim,

Yours is a perfect example of the relatively rare occasion of identifying a specific piece of software working better in conjunction with NVDA is entirely on-topic for the group.

It's another example of something of the "use with NVDA" class of information.  And it's entirely different in both form, and intent, from something like, "How do I open the settings in Edge with NVDA?," because whether or not NVDA is involved is not relevant to that question - what's being asked about is Edge and how to work with it.  The screen reader would be irrelevant, and need not even be in use.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Gene
 

That’s good to know.  I never paid attention to seeif there is a pattern.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
 
On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 11:39 AM, Gene wrote:
And this may be on by default so you may have attempted to activate it and your attempt may have done nothing.
 
-
Gene,

What follows is just a general observation about "Remember me" functionality - it is never toggled on/checked by default.

In my case I never use remember me functionality because I want my userids and passwords to be something I am forced to have in my head or in a password manager.  I don't want browsers setting cookies for my userids or otherwise putting them into storage.  But that's just my personal preference.

But general security principles dicatate that the default state for remember me functionality is off.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Gene
 

You have to be in browse mode. 
 
When I did my Internet tutorial years ago, I advised people that when filling out unfamiliar forms, that they go out of forms mode after working with a field and down arrow through the form because you may miss important information if you move in other ways.  There may be forms where there is no reason to do this, such as a simple form that asks for very typical information, but even there, you may miss useful instructions if you just tab. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2021 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
 
On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 11:53 AM, Tyler Zahnke wrote:
Firefox does not read whether the checkbox is checked or not, it's
just the words "remember me" are being read if I arrow down from the
password box,
-
Truly, I am not trying to be difficult, but I do not understand exactly what you mean or are doing.  If I'm sitting in the password box, in Firefox, using down arrow does not get me out of that box.

There is something specific about the exact sequence of steps you are using that I am not hitting upon in my experimentation.  I can't replicate the success you've had even with just the announcement of "Remember Me" unless I use "the sighted way" with the mouse.  I'd like to be able to replicate your experience for my own education, and how you do this may be relevant to other situations.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 

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