Date   

Re: NVDA in Employment

Gene
 

If it weren't for NVDA, there probably wouldn't be a subscription option.  So whatever the case is regarding which screen-reader is better for the most workplace applications, a lot of people are indirectly benefitting from inroads NVDA has made in the market and that is a very good contribution NVDA is making.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Employment

My personal experience, at least in Virginia, is not that JAWS is pushed due to anything contractual, but because it's the only thing that most know about or want to know about on the tech support side in the agencies.   That also bleeds over into the field offices that are direct client service, too.

The head of our tutor network knows this, and acknowledges it, but has pretty much "given in" to the situation as well.  She says that there have been previous efforts to try to get NVDA into the mix (which, to be frank, I feel pretty certain were half-hearted) but none of them were able to gain traction.

I dislike the anticompetitive nature of Vispero (and all its predecessors) as well as the insane price gouging (my opinion, even though I know screen readers are a niche market) that they have done.   A lot of my clients through the Virginia Department for the Blind and Visually Impaired have very limited funds, and although the department funds the initial purchase and service maintenance agreement, that's generally where it ends.   So, up until the subscription option appeared, this left a lot of folks with completely outmoded versions of JAWS very quickly if they couldn't afford follow-on service maintenance agreements.

I truly hope that NVDA keeps gaining traction and that Narrator does, too.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


Re: NVDA in Employment

 

My personal experience, at least in Virginia, is not that JAWS is pushed due to anything contractual, but because it's the only thing that most know about or want to know about on the tech support side in the agencies.   That also bleeds over into the field offices that are direct client service, too.

The head of our tutor network knows this, and acknowledges it, but has pretty much "given in" to the situation as well.  She says that there have been previous efforts to try to get NVDA into the mix (which, to be frank, I feel pretty certain were half-hearted) but none of them were able to gain traction.

I dislike the anticompetitive nature of Vispero (and all its predecessors) as well as the insane price gouging (my opinion, even though I know screen readers are a niche market) that they have done.   A lot of my clients through the Virginia Department for the Blind and Visually Impaired have very limited funds, and although the department funds the initial purchase and service maintenance agreement, that's generally where it ends.   So, up until the subscription option appeared, this left a lot of folks with completely outmoded versions of JAWS very quickly if they couldn't afford follow-on service maintenance agreements.

I truly hope that NVDA keeps gaining traction and that Narrator does, too.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


Re: NVDA in Employment

erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Greetings,

On August 25, 2019 6:11:06 PM "Andy B." <sonfire11@gmail.com> wrote:

1. NVDA has been the most standards compliant for years, at least that you
know of... Do you have documentation that NVDA is the most standards
compliant Windows-based screen reader?

This is rich. Quentin sent a pretty good overview of information employers might need to put NVDA in their workplaces. Now the way I read that document, the NVDA software interface complies with WCAG 2.0A, and is equiped to provide access to any software complying to WCAG 2.0AA. Quentin can correct me if I'm wrong. There is also further information about compliance with standards that don't apply to me such as rehabilitation 508 refresh.

This morning I did a quick google search and couldn't find a compliance statement for jaws. So I called freedom scientific and asked what edition of WCAG Jaws complies with. The tech support person had never heard of WCAG even after I spelled it out in terms of web content accessibility guidelines. He then told me that the latest jaws version was 2019 and for the best compatibility, use that. I asked twice more and he checked twice more, but he ended up telling me that no one in his department knew anything about wcag.

I wouldn't call NVDA standards
compliant when the only effective email client NVDA works with is the
web-based version of Gmail. When TB sometimes lags for hours, Windows 10
Mail doesn't read well and you have to make use of notepad to type email,
and NVDA+Outlook results in the error bell going off like the closing bell
on Wallstreet, it doesn't sound very compliant.

I think you're missing the point of standards. I use windows 10 mail just fine, and I've also run outlook with no problems. I'm sorry it isn't working out for you, but the point of standards is that everyone has to comply in order for the system to work. If NVDA and windows 10 mail are both compliant to WCAG 2.0AA, they work together at least in as much as the items covered by the standard. If one of them fails to comply, the system falls over.

Now there are qwerks in windows 10 mail. Editing a message is really unreasonably clunky, but the one time I tried it with jaws it was frightening. In stead of reading from and subject in the message list, it was reading the body of the message without the headers. On top of that, this particular system you could use for a few hours at a time, but at some random point, jaws would fail to load web content properly across all applications. Emails... webpages... blooie! The content would load and jaws would just say blank blank blank. Nothing's perfect, but a high end screen reader really shouldn't do things like that.
2. Software developers are increasingly required to create standards
compliant software. Do you have evidence from the U.S. Supreme court or
other international governing body that standards compliant software is an
absolute must? If so, what are those standards and penalties for violating
the standards?

I don't know the ins and outs of the American system, though I have heard of settlements and penalties ranging from $100000 to $2.5 millian for people barred from work or education due to inaccessible software. Of course, in all these cases as with the ones I've worked on, the penalties are as much for unwillingness to comply as for the noncompliance itself. I do not remember, exactly, but either the section 508 refresh or the latest ADA refresh officially adopted WCAG 2.0.

Here in ontario, the legally adopted standard is WCAG 2.0AA with 2.0AAA to be implemented fully by year 2021. I believe the penalties for noncompliance are not less than $10,000 and not more than $50,000. I think the new national legislation has stiffer penalties, but the adoption process just started. I would think they will go with WCAG 2.1 just to stay current, but this remains to be seen. I'm sorry I don't have all the numbers difinitively, but all this is public record. You can look up the definitions and requirements for your region.
3. It is foolish to claim open source is not safe in the workplace. You seem
to be taking this point from an NVDA users perspective. Well I just happen to be an nvda user with substantial IT experience. Besides, none of your comments on this point in any way address the issue of open source and security and others have addressed it better than I could.
Besides, most AT
software and hardware gains popularity through a good marketing plan. NVDA
doesn't seem to have a good marketing plan, else they would have become
direct competitor's with JAWS.

Gafaws and harty chuckles all around. How many screen reader products have competed directly with freedom scientific. Let's see, in the early days there were ASAW, window-bridge and winvision. Then came window-eyes, Hal and supernova. Then free screen readers emerged such as nvda and thunder. Explain if you will... Where are all of the screen readers and magnifiers who competed directly with jaws? Except for supernova which still has a limitted following and NVDA which doesn't compete directly, every single last one of those products and more that I haven't mentioned are G O N E... Gone. I forgot about system access actually. That might still be around. I don't remember. In any event, the legal fees alone that would be required to defend against frivolous freedom scientific lawsuits would enflate the cost beyond common sense. Then there are the multitudinous exclusivity agreements held by FS, which NVDA conveniently circumvents with it's current charity free access model.

There is this thing called market disruption. To find out how positive disruption works, study uber, airbnb, and netflix who revolutionized their industries and the way we think about products and services. Did NVDA set out to disrupt a market? We can only speculate; however, it certainly had timing on it's side coming up as it did alongside the emergence of apple voiceover products and google talkback.

Does NVAccess have a bad marketing plan? You tell me. Grants from microsoft, adobe, and mozilla, prestigious technology awards, Academic recognission and use in research, recognized leader in software testing,, used in derivitive commercial access technologies such as ABISee Eyepal... Goodness gracious me! I see it all so clearly now. What a terrible marketing plan! How could we all have been so blind! :-D


In any case, most IT managers have no clue
about AT and how it works. Thus, they will go with the product most
advertised and sought after in the accessibility space.

Oh boy... No no no... If they don't know anything about accessibility, they will transfer the issue in whole or in part to either a legal department, or an accessibility department, which companies in Ontario are now and soon will be, required to have. The accessibility and/or legal department may seek out an official recommendation from an agency such as the CNIB here. An agency probably but not necessarily will recommend jaws for many of the shortsighted reasons sited in this thread. Whatever comes of it, the law here and in the US requires that a person with a disability be allowed input into their own accommodations. That doesn't mean they get whatever they ask for, but they do get an opportunity to state and justify their preferences. IT departments often have little or no say in what is procured,. They are only consulted on implementation. If there are problems with an implementation such as jaws simply failing to run or concerns about NVDA security, they get to provide that feedback, but if the concerns can be addressed, they have to implement whatever the accessibility department procures.

5. The point of AT software and hardware is to gain access to, and use the
accessibility framework implemented in the operating system. Its other job
is to compensate for a lack in such accessibility framework. Hence, why JAWS
works better in VS code and Visual Studio better than NVDA, especially with
autocomplete.

We disagree here. Screen readers in my view should not be required to compensate for deficiencies in software development. This I believe, is also the working development philosophy at NVAccess. It is personally excruciating to me that microsoft makes a public show of spending 10's of millians of dollars on AI research to help people with disabilities, while workers today are still waiting for full access to sharepoint, visual studio, and other corporate software to do their job. That to me is trucking ridiculous!

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 2:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Hi Kelby
On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@gmail.com>
wrote:


I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen
readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset. I've seen
this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility is
a thing. When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer you
away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek in
your head.

The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common
things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than
jaws and I subscribe to this view. Consider, there are many more python
programmers in the world than jaws scripters. A company can script NVDA in
house using their own IT department. Otherwise, the company needs to
outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional. The prices I
have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends. It is
no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software.
In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates accessibility
API's that comply with recognized standards. Screen readers provide access
using the API's and standards. Software manufacturers are increasingly
legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility standards and
implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by the system.
Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to procure
technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility standards
so that it can work with access technologies. NVDA has been considered the
most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

Extrordinarily foolish. If open source software is insecure, why is it
powering the commercial internet? If commercial software is inherantly
secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows
against viruses? NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to
install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands
of computer workstations. If your corporate network is secure, than running
NVDA can't possibly be less secure than running say adobe reader, which is
a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do. I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application
developer for wholenote media in Toronto. I've experienced some of the
things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using
intelisense. Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag. This is the
fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with
standards or even properly implementing their own API's. At least, if you
want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe lag
in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml designer,
rad tools, and unit testing among other things. If ms could say their
product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an ineficiency in
NVDA. Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers and in VSCode
though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on.
We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for
accessibility.

and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this. I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5. I
have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have
experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016, windows
10 mail, and other things. In helping jaws users the last year or so, I've
seen an issue where displaying web content poops out. Jaws scripts still
have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be re-installed. And
they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues such as laptops
switching video cards for various power profiles and ditching the
authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.
When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college
employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the
college. He told me that in general nvda was working much better on college
systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this semester
compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was way over
priced. This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I was
registering for courses. At that time, jaws was everything according to
this guy. He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it for me
because I insisted. He was also dead set against mac and has had to rethink
that position too. :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call
centre back in 16. It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me. Their IT
guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA. Jaws
won't even load up on our systems for testing." He also told me they would
script NVDA in house using their python programmers. I didn't get hired,
but I don't think it had anything to do with equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,


Re: NVDA in Employment

Sky Mundell
 

It’s interesting you should say this because where I work we don’t have any contracts with Vispero. So we can teach NVDA which is a good thing alongside of other solutions and I’d rather not us get contracted by Vispero because I detest their anticompetitive nature. Yes JAWS might have been a good program and probably still is in some areas but it’s their anticompetitive nature that  is part of the problem as well and I never thought when I started on computers in 1993 that we would have a company that monopolised the assistive technology market and I always thought the agencies would encourage client choice and provide a range of solutions as the only way that screen readers back in the day like JAWS, and when it was alive, Window-Eyes, could really be funded is via agencies.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 7:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Employment

 

I did bring this up with my BSB here but they don't want to listen. It's jaws or nothing at all, but I think his is because they are paid by our govermment to teach jaws not NVDA so they will probably lose money from the government. Same with employers. If they ave a contract with visparo then they probably cannot teach NVDA or let you use it.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 25 Aug 2019, at 22:48, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Indeed Austin!  I think the misconception is that any malicious hacker can edit the code of any open source project - which completely misses how open source projects work.  Yes, anyone can submit a pull request (submit code) for NVDA, but before it goes into the final product, it needs to be reviewed by the core developers, and if you download NVDA from the official source, it's just as robust and secure as downloading any other (closed or open source) program from its official download page.

 

Also, I must apologise to Kelby - I inadvertently typed "Kelly" in my previous email, so my apologies Kelby!

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 3:34 PM Austin Pinto <austinpinto.xaviers@...> wrote:

if open source software are not secure how is Linux powering most web servers?
some1 can make changes to the Linux kernel and do what they want.

On 8/26/19, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
> Hi Kelly,
>
> I see the skim reading question has been addressed, and I'll leave others
> to answer which screen reader they prefer, but in terms of using NVDA in a
> work environment, we certainly do have a lot of users who use NVDA in that
> context, both employees and also employers or institutions setting up NVDA
> in say, university labs, libraries or other public computers.
>
> For anyone looking into this either as an employer or an employee looking
> for information for their workplace, we have a page at
> https://www.nvaccess.org/corporate-government/ which answers a lot of
> common questions (including the security options within NVDA, and
> addressing the (unfounded) concern around the security of open-source
> software.
>
> If anyone (or any potential employers) have any lingering concerns, please
> do get in touch (or get them in touch) with us - info@... is the
> easiest way - and we'd be happy to discuss any concerns.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Quentin.
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 9:38 PM kelby carlson <kelbycarlson@...>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi, everyone,
>>
>> I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA
>> is
>> bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
>> solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
>> customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be
>> scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary
>> software,
>> and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
>> source.
>>
>> So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is
>> there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?
>>
>> Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
> Web: www.nvaccess.org
> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>
>
>
>
>


--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
austinpinto.xaviers@...
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3



 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 


Re: Very basic question.

 

As an aside, if you're looking for keyboard shortcuts for NVDA, these can easily be brought up in your default web browser, triggered in NVDA itself.

You can use NVDA Key+N,H,Q and the reference document for all the NVDA Shortcuts opens in your browser and can be searched.  I do this all the time for the "less frequently shortcuts" when I need these, as I never remember the ones I don't use all the time.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


Re: NVDA in Employment

Sarah k Alawami
 

I did bring this up with my BSB here but they don't want to listen. It's jaws or nothing at all, but I think his is because they are paid by our govermment to teach jaws not NVDA so they will probably lose money from the government. Same with employers. If they ave a contract with visparo then they probably cannot teach NVDA or let you use it.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 25 Aug 2019, at 22:48, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Indeed Austin!  I think the misconception is that any malicious hacker can edit the code of any open source project - which completely misses how open source projects work.  Yes, anyone can submit a pull request (submit code) for NVDA, but before it goes into the final product, it needs to be reviewed by the core developers, and if you download NVDA from the official source, it's just as robust and secure as downloading any other (closed or open source) program from its official download page.

Also, I must apologise to Kelby - I inadvertently typed "Kelly" in my previous email, so my apologies Kelby!

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 3:34 PM Austin Pinto <austinpinto.xaviers@...> wrote:
if open source software are not secure how is Linux powering most web servers?
some1 can make changes to the Linux kernel and do what they want.

On 8/26/19, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
> Hi Kelly,
>
> I see the skim reading question has been addressed, and I'll leave others
> to answer which screen reader they prefer, but in terms of using NVDA in a
> work environment, we certainly do have a lot of users who use NVDA in that
> context, both employees and also employers or institutions setting up NVDA
> in say, university labs, libraries or other public computers.
>
> For anyone looking into this either as an employer or an employee looking
> for information for their workplace, we have a page at
> https://www.nvaccess.org/corporate-government/ which answers a lot of
> common questions (including the security options within NVDA, and
> addressing the (unfounded) concern around the security of open-source
> software.
>
> If anyone (or any potential employers) have any lingering concerns, please
> do get in touch (or get them in touch) with us - info@... is the
> easiest way - and we'd be happy to discuss any concerns.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Quentin.
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 9:38 PM kelby carlson <kelbycarlson@...>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi, everyone,
>>
>> I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA
>> is
>> bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
>> solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
>> customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be
>> scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary
>> software,
>> and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
>> source.
>>
>> So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is
>> there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?
>>
>> Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
> Web: www.nvaccess.org
> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>
>
>
>
>


--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
austinpinto.xaviers@...
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: A point on email clients

Cecelia Rodriguez <cessbraille@...>
 

The mail app in windows 10

On Aug 25, 2019, at 11:58 AM, Vincent Le Goff <vincent.legoff.srs@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi everyone,


This has been reported for a few weeks or months and things are getting worse, so I'm afraid I'll have to leave the Thunderbird community. The client is getting extremely sluggish. It behaves well for sighted users but the thing is not reporting information to NVDA in less than a few seconds for each key press, especially for us unfortunate relying on Braille. Enough is enough. Thunderbird served its purpose but I need a fast email client and can't spend 2 hours reading my 100 daily emails (yep, I happen to receive lots of emails).


But this "ragequit" will pose some problems. The first, and obvious, is: what to use now? Relying on Microsoft products doesn't sit too well, I'm already doing a lot of that, but it seems there aren't so many choices. For awhile I heard about an open-source email client specifically created for accessibility, but I can't remember what the name was, who created it, and Google can't help me.


So the debate is open: let's avoid the flamewar if possible, but what are you using? What would be more fitting with NVDA? I have a few requirements:


- I'm running on Windows 10 (64-bit). Can't do without that.

- I have two accounts and possibly three, so I need to have support for several email accounts and simple switches between them.

- I need support for iMap, which is basically the only protocol I used to retreieve messages.

- Support for simple text and HTML content is obviously a strong bonus.


Thanks in advance for your advice!


Vincent




Re: Very basic question.

Martin O'Sullivan
 

Searching for text

Name Key Description
Find text NVDA+control+f Opens the search dialog
Find next NVDA+f3 searches the next occurrence of the current search term
Find previous NVDA+shift+f3 searches the previous occurrence of the current search term
--
Martin O'Sullivan
‎"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."  Hélder Câmara

"Act your way into a feeling don’t feel your way into Action" (Gandhi)
"Be the change you want to see in the world." (Gandhi)

"We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." (Elie Wiesel )
Tel: +353878289243

E-mail osumartin@...

APT 29 Falcons View
Blanchardstown Centre
Blanchardstown
D15 VK88
Co Dublin
Ireland




On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 19:22, Judy Jones <sonshines59@...> wrote:

Hello again,

 

A quick question.  When wanting to find a word or phrase on a web page, with Jaws, I would do the ctrl-F, type in my word or pharase, then enter.  My result would either come up, or I would get a message, result not found, and an OK.

 

When trying this in NVDA, nothing seemsto happen.  Is there anything else I should be doing?

 

Thanks again.

 

 


Re: Lags in Thunderbird with NVDA

DJ
 

 It seems that the process of Thunderbird updating might be the issue. Most screen readers seem to lag when a given program is taking its time in updating something.


On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 4:11 AM Vincent Le Goff <vincent.legoff.srs@...> wrote:
I dare to create a new thread to discuss this issue more.  So just to
recap: some of us (not all of us) have experienced significant lags in
Thunderbird over a period ranging from a few weeks to a year or so. 
Hard to pinpoint the issue and since a lot of users didn't experience
this, the issue was neither critical not even proven (hard to prove a
lag, by all means).


This could apply to other email clients, it seems.  As far as I'm
concerned, the problem was that my inbox was crowded.  Last I checked I
had around 12K emails in only one folder and the older emails had been
sent in 2009.  I had gone over cleaning up this folder and removing what
I didn't care to keep, but there were a lot of emails I simply archived
because I wanted to keep a track. And because I'm using iMap (several
devices to keep in sync, I couldn't very well use Pop3), these emails
were sent to every client.


A (bug) was discovered on Gmail accounts.  Deleted emails, by default,
weren't deleted at all, just kept in a separate folder in Gmail which
was a poor fix and didn't exactly solve my problem. But more
importantly, I went to the Gmail settings and asked it to only send me
1000 emails in a single folder at most.  And after a painful and slow
client sync, I find Thunderbird so much more responsive. Was it really
all that took?  And if so, who's responsible?  Is it logical for NVDA to
lag that much in a simple list when the said list has around 10K
entries?  Maybe yes, maybe not.  Maybe Thunderbird itself, despite its
"caching" and "compacting" doesn't handle the situation very well, at
least for users relying on assistive technology.  It might be worth
reporting their way, but it probably is worth discussing here
beforehand.  Besides, Thunderbird might not be the only one suffering
from this issue.  And this "fix" might not fix anything for others. 
Again, worth talking about.


The setting that changed my life was in Gmail: so login to gmail.com,
open settings / POP3 and iMAP sync (sorry for the labels that might be
somewhat different, Gmail is in French on my account), and check the
options on "when a message is marked as deleted". Just below you will
find another setting to limit the number of emails per folder.  By
default there's no limit, but if you check a limit Gmail offers you 1000
emails per folder at most.  This seems to be a good alternative.  The
remaining (for me!) 11K emails aren't deleted, but Gmail keeps them on
its server and doesn't send them to the client except if you search
(Thunderbird allows to run a full search on the server).


HTH,


Vincent









Re: NVDA in Employment

Gene
 

It will be interesting to see if other users provide detailed answers discussing these points. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Employment

Hi Jene,

On August 25, 2019 5:39:25 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:

It appears to me that you are trying much too hard from what looks to me to be a defend NVDA position rather than a what is in the real world position.

The world is changing.  15 years ago we couldn't have this conversation at all.  Now it's a hot debate.  I'm successfully using NVDA in a variety of real world situations every day for work and school.  If it isn't perfect, it has risen to every challenge, and I have certainly not taken the time to master advanced features or experiment with official add-ons that would greatly enhance my productivity.  Interest I have, time not so much.  I'm also substantially envolved in suing companies for discrimination and creating employment programs for employers and blind employees in Canada.  I also handle some high level accessibility testing and quality analysis.  I'm just about to start a contract with Nelson Publishing for example to do various types of software quality control and accessibility evaluation.  I've also done significant paid training on jaws, and I assure you, my jaws training customers are not so happy campers.  I hate unhappy customers, especially when there in't a damn thing I can do about it.  I think my experience makes my opinion count for something, but unless supported by fact, it remains just that, an opinion.

NVDA has no way for the user to designate frames and have things happen in those frames.  There may be technical reasons why NVDA can't have that feature.  But it is a significant deficiency for some, perhaps many, work situations and other settings where customization is necessary. 


Frames are a neat feature.  I used them a fair bit and often set them up for training customers to do various things.  Frames aren't exactly the most stable solution though.  If the size or position of the program window changes your frames start doing very funny things.  If your software gets an upgrade the position of features can be reset in the interface, or jaws can fail to recognize the new version as the same software altogether.  The script files that generate the frames can get corupted.  All kinds of things can happen.  Even with voiceover hotspots which are a lot easier to implement than frames, you get most of these issues.  It's infinitely more reliable to expose all UI elements to a standard API, and let a screen reader interact with them directly.  The elements can go anywhere on the screen, you get more events, and standard keyboard shortcuts can be used.  All in theory of course, but significant development work has proven the theory and this is the direction the market is headed.


Can NVDA be made to indicate a capital letter when using read to end or up and down arrowing, reading by line?  This is important in the workplace and anywhere else where people proof materials such as reports or papers, as in schools and colleges. 

I don't know the answer to this.  Though it could potentially be useful to me in my programming I get so much information from speech that I haven't missed this piece.  However, my word processor and various code editors will point out misuse of capitals, and find and replace will let me quickly match case on any instance of a variable or proper noun.

Also, it is my recollection, that JAWS can be made to indicate extra spaces in a document.  I suspect it can indicate other things such as two periods, etc, when reading or moving line by line.  Can NVDA do that?

NVDA does have support for repeated text, but I have never had a use for anything as fine tuned as what you're describing.  I leave two spaces between sentences as a matter of course, and so having that announced might not be as usefull as all that.

While it may be that standards are being implemented more in software, I doubt the implementation is anywhere near adequate in the wide range of programs used by businesses.

Of course not.  It may take another decade or two before the trend is fully actualized.  Ontario for example has a barrier free target of 2025.  They'll never make it, even though efforts are ramping up. 

It's a trend powered by massive legal precedent and legislation around the world and backed by a groundswell of social innovation in which NV Access is a world leader.  It's benefits to us are unparalelled.  why would we bary our heads in the sand and hope the change never comes?  In this case, I believe it's better to embrace the change and, in as much as possible and desireable, direct the change so that we get the maximum benefit from it.

----- Original Message -----

From: erik burggraaf
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Hi Kelby
On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@...> wrote:

I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen
readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset.  I've seen
this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility
is a thing.  When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer
you away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek
in your head.

The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common
things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than
jaws and I subscribe to this view.  Consider, there are many more python
programmers in the world than jaws scripters.  A company can script NVDA in
house using their own IT department.  Otherwise, the company needs to
outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional.  The prices
I have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends.  It is
no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software.
In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates
accessibility API's that comply with recognized standards.  Screen readers
provide access using the API's and standards.  Software manufacturers are
increasingly  legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility
standards and implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by
the system.  Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to
procure technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility
standards so that it can work with access technologies.  NVDA has been
considered the most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as
far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

Extrordinarily foolish.  If open source software is insecure, why is it
powering the commercial internet?  If commercial software is inherantly
secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows
against viruses?  NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to
install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands
of computer workstations.  If your corporate network is secure, than
running NVDA can't possibly be less secure  than running say adobe reader,
which is a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do.  I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application
developer for wholenote media in Toronto.  I've experienced some of the
things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using
intelisense.  Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag.  This is the
fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with
standards or even properly implementing their own API's.  At least, if you
want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe
lag in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml
designer, rad tools, and unit testing among other things.  If ms could say
their product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an
ineficiency in NVDA.  Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers
and in VSCode though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on.
We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for accessibility.

and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this.  I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5.  I
have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have
experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016,
windows 10 mail, and other things.  In helping jaws users the last year or
so, I've seen an issue where displaying web content poops out.  Jaws
scripts still have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be
re-installed.  And they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues
such as laptops switching video cards for various power profiles and
ditching the authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.
When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college
employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the
college.  He told me that in general nvda was working much better on
college systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this
semester compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was
way over priced.  This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I
was registering for courses.  At that time, jaws was everything according
to this guy.  He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it
for me because I insisted.  He was also dead set against mac and has had to
rethink that position too.  :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call
centre back in 16.  It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me.  Their IT
guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA.  Jaws
won't even load up on our systems for testing."  He also told me they would
script NVDA in house using their python programmers.  I didn't get hired,
but I don't think it had anything to do with  equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,








Re: NVDA in Employment

erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Hi Jene,

On August 25, 2019 5:39:25 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:

It appears to me that you are trying much too hard from what looks to me to be a defend NVDA position rather than a what is in the real world position.

The world is changing.  15 years ago we couldn't have this conversation at all.  Now it's a hot debate.  I'm successfully using NVDA in a variety of real world situations every day for work and school.  If it isn't perfect, it has risen to every challenge, and I have certainly not taken the time to master advanced features or experiment with official add-ons that would greatly enhance my productivity.  Interest I have, time not so much.  I'm also substantially envolved in suing companies for discrimination and creating employment programs for employers and blind employees in Canada.  I also handle some high level accessibility testing and quality analysis.  I'm just about to start a contract with Nelson Publishing for example to do various types of software quality control and accessibility evaluation.  I've also done significant paid training on jaws, and I assure you, my jaws training customers are not so happy campers.  I hate unhappy customers, especially when there in't a damn thing I can do about it.  I think my experience makes my opinion count for something, but unless supported by fact, it remains just that, an opinion.

NVDA has no way for the user to designate frames and have things happen in those frames.  There may be technical reasons why NVDA can't have that feature.  But it is a significant deficiency for some, perhaps many, work situations and other settings where customization is necessary. 


Frames are a neat feature.  I used them a fair bit and often set them up for training customers to do various things.  Frames aren't exactly the most stable solution though.  If the size or position of the program window changes your frames start doing very funny things.  If your software gets an upgrade the position of features can be reset in the interface, or jaws can fail to recognize the new version as the same software altogether.  The script files that generate the frames can get corupted.  All kinds of things can happen.  Even with voiceover hotspots which are a lot easier to implement than frames, you get most of these issues.  It's infinitely more reliable to expose all UI elements to a standard API, and let a screen reader interact with them directly.  The elements can go anywhere on the screen, you get more events, and standard keyboard shortcuts can be used.  All in theory of course, but significant development work has proven the theory and this is the direction the market is headed.


Can NVDA be made to indicate a capital letter when using read to end or up and down arrowing, reading by line?  This is important in the workplace and anywhere else where people proof materials such as reports or papers, as in schools and colleges. 

I don't know the answer to this.  Though it could potentially be useful to me in my programming I get so much information from speech that I haven't missed this piece.  However, my word processor and various code editors will point out misuse of capitals, and find and replace will let me quickly match case on any instance of a variable or proper noun.

Also, it is my recollection, that JAWS can be made to indicate extra spaces in a document.  I suspect it can indicate other things such as two periods, etc, when reading or moving line by line.  Can NVDA do that?

NVDA does have support for repeated text, but I have never had a use for anything as fine tuned as what you're describing.  I leave two spaces between sentences as a matter of course, and so having that announced might not be as usefull as all that.

While it may be that standards are being implemented more in software, I doubt the implementation is anywhere near adequate in the wide range of programs used by businesses.

Of course not.  It may take another decade or two before the trend is fully actualized.  Ontario for example has a barrier free target of 2025.  They'll never make it, even though efforts are ramping up. 

It's a trend powered by massive legal precedent and legislation around the world and backed by a groundswell of social innovation in which NV Access is a world leader.  It's benefits to us are unparalelled.  why would we bary our heads in the sand and hope the change never comes?  In this case, I believe it's better to embrace the change and, in as much as possible and desireable, direct the change so that we get the maximum benefit from it.

----- Original Message -----

From: erik burggraaf
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Hi Kelby
On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@...> wrote:

I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen
readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset.  I've seen
this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility
is a thing.  When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer
you away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek
in your head.

The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common
things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than
jaws and I subscribe to this view.  Consider, there are many more python
programmers in the world than jaws scripters.  A company can script NVDA in
house using their own IT department.  Otherwise, the company needs to
outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional.  The prices
I have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends.  It is
no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software.
In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates
accessibility API's that comply with recognized standards.  Screen readers
provide access using the API's and standards.  Software manufacturers are
increasingly  legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility
standards and implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by
the system.  Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to
procure technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility
standards so that it can work with access technologies.  NVDA has been
considered the most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as
far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

Extrordinarily foolish.  If open source software is insecure, why is it
powering the commercial internet?  If commercial software is inherantly
secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows
against viruses?  NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to
install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands
of computer workstations.  If your corporate network is secure, than
running NVDA can't possibly be less secure  than running say adobe reader,
which is a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do.  I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application
developer for wholenote media in Toronto.  I've experienced some of the
things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using
intelisense.  Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag.  This is the
fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with
standards or even properly implementing their own API's.  At least, if you
want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe
lag in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml
designer, rad tools, and unit testing among other things.  If ms could say
their product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an
ineficiency in NVDA.  Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers
and in VSCode though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on.
We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for accessibility.

and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this.  I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5.  I
have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have
experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016,
windows 10 mail, and other things.  In helping jaws users the last year or
so, I've seen an issue where displaying web content poops out.  Jaws
scripts still have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be
re-installed.  And they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues
such as laptops switching video cards for various power profiles and
ditching the authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.
When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college
employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the
college.  He told me that in general nvda was working much better on
college systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this
semester compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was
way over priced.  This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I
was registering for courses.  At that time, jaws was everything according
to this guy.  He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it
for me because I insisted.  He was also dead set against mac and has had to
rethink that position too.  :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call
centre back in 16.  It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me.  Their IT
guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA.  Jaws
won't even load up on our systems for testing."  He also told me they would
script NVDA in house using their python programmers.  I didn't get hired,
but I don't think it had anything to do with  equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,








Re: Lags in Thunderbird with NVDA

Gene
 

I don't recall anyone, whenever this topic has come up, comparing the performance of JAWS to NVDA.  I don't recall any other screen-reader being compared.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 3:10 AM
Subject: [nvda] Lats in Thunderbird with NVDA

I dare to create a new thread to discuss this issue more.  So just to
recap: some of us (not all of us) have experienced significant lags in
Thunderbird over a period ranging from a few weeks to a year or so. 
Hard to pinpoint the issue and since a lot of users didn't experience
this, the issue was neither critical not even proven (hard to prove a
lag, by all means).


This could apply to other email clients, it seems.  As far as I'm
concerned, the problem was that my inbox was crowded.  Last I checked I
had around 12K emails in only one folder and the older emails had been
sent in 2009.  I had gone over cleaning up this folder and removing what
I didn't care to keep, but there were a lot of emails I simply archived
because I wanted to keep a track. And because I'm using iMap (several
devices to keep in sync, I couldn't very well use Pop3), these emails
were sent to every client.


A (bug) was discovered on Gmail accounts.  Deleted emails, by default,
weren't deleted at all, just kept in a separate folder in Gmail which
was a poor fix and didn't exactly solve my problem. But more
importantly, I went to the Gmail settings and asked it to only send me
1000 emails in a single folder at most.  And after a painful and slow
client sync, I find Thunderbird so much more responsive.  Was it really
all that took?  And if so, who's responsible?  Is it logical for NVDA to
lag that much in a simple list when the said list has around 10K
entries?  Maybe yes, maybe not.  Maybe Thunderbird itself, despite its
"caching" and "compacting" doesn't handle the situation very well, at
least for users relying on assistive technology.  It might be worth
reporting their way, but it probably is worth discussing here
beforehand.  Besides, Thunderbird might not be the only one suffering
from this issue.  And this "fix" might not fix anything for others. 
Again, worth talking about.


The setting that changed my life was in Gmail: so login to gmail.com,
open settings / POP3 and iMAP sync (sorry for the labels that might be
somewhat different, Gmail is in French on my account), and check the
options on "when a message is marked as deleted". Just below you will
find another setting to limit the number of emails per folder.  By
default there's no limit, but if you check a limit Gmail offers you 1000
emails per folder at most.  This seems to be a good alternative.  The
remaining (for me!) 11K emails aren't deleted, but Gmail keeps them on
its server and doesn't send them to the client except if you search
(Thunderbird allows to run a full search on the server).


HTH,


Vincent




Re: Is there an NVDA add on for Whatsapp Web?

Ibrahim Abedrabbo
 

Hi Vincent,
Thanks a million for your help regarding Whatsapp Web with NVDA. I did not even know that there is a desktop application for it. Thanks for providing the link. I truly appreciate it.

Regards,

Ibrahim



On Aug 25, 2019, at 4:18 AM, Vincent Le Goff <vincent.legoff.srs@...> wrote:

Hi Ibrahim,


As far as I know, there are two possibilities: either use WhatsApp web as you suggested, or use the desktop application.  As far as accessibility goes, both might be somewhat equivalent, because the desktop application actually uses a web rendering.  I would think the website itself is more accessible, if only a little.  I used the desktop application for awhile and would have tried the web version if that weren't for this scan-your-PC-screen-with-your-iphone login that I can't possibly do alone (at least, I didn't find out how).


Desktop app (Windows 8 and higher, 32-bit): https://web.whatsapp.com/desktop/windows/release/ia32/WhatsAppSetup.exe

Whatsapp web: https://web.whatsapp.com


HTH,


Vincent

On 8/21/2019 4:20 AM, Ibrahim Abedrabbo wrote:
Hello folks,
Are there any add ons for accessing Whatsapp Web with NVDA? If so, where can I find it? What is the best way to access whatsapp on the PC with NVDA?
Any hints would be appreciated.


Regards,
Ibrahim






Re: reading from mouse pointer

willmac@lantic.net
 

I am using Mouse Inverter (extra large)n) in Win10.

Hope tis help,

Regards,

William


Recording a meeting on Skype

Morne van der Merwe
 

Hello list,

 

I am running the latest version of Skype, NVDA and Windows 10.

 

Is it possible to record a Skype meeting?

 

Regards

 

Morné


Re: NVDA in Employment

erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Thanks for pointing out this page.  It may not be detailed enough for some, but I found it a useful overview.

I was interested to see that NVDA is compliant only up to WCAG 2.0AA.  Is there a timeline for 2.1 compliance, or does the new revision not contain enhancements that effect nvda?

Thanks,

Erik

On August 25, 2019 11:28:43 PM "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@...> wrote:

Hi Kelly,

I see the skim reading question has been addressed, and I'll leave others to answer which screen reader they prefer, but in terms of using NVDA in a work environment, we certainly do have a lot of users who use NVDA in that context, both employees and also employers or institutions setting up NVDA in say, university labs, libraries or other public computers.

For anyone looking into this either as an employer or an employee looking for information for their workplace, we have a page at https://www.nvaccess.org/corporate-government/ which answers a lot of common questions (including the security options within NVDA, and addressing the (unfounded) concern around the security of open-source software.

If anyone (or any potential employers) have any lingering concerns, please do get in touch (or get them in touch) with us - info@... is the easiest way - and we'd be happy to discuss any concerns.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 9:38 PM kelby carlson <kelbycarlson@...> wrote:
Hi, everyone,

I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down" solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary software, and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open source.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: Lags in Thunderbird with NVDA

 

whats the last version of responsive thunderbird?

On 8/26/19, Vincent Le Goff <vincent.legoff.srs@gmail.com> wrote:
I dare to create a new thread to discuss this issue more.  So just to
recap: some of us (not all of us) have experienced significant lags in
Thunderbird over a period ranging from a few weeks to a year or so.
Hard to pinpoint the issue and since a lot of users didn't experience
this, the issue was neither critical not even proven (hard to prove a
lag, by all means).


This could apply to other email clients, it seems.  As far as I'm
concerned, the problem was that my inbox was crowded.  Last I checked I
had around 12K emails in only one folder and the older emails had been
sent in 2009.  I had gone over cleaning up this folder and removing what
I didn't care to keep, but there were a lot of emails I simply archived
because I wanted to keep a track. And because I'm using iMap (several
devices to keep in sync, I couldn't very well use Pop3), these emails
were sent to every client.


A (bug) was discovered on Gmail accounts.  Deleted emails, by default,
weren't deleted at all, just kept in a separate folder in Gmail which
was a poor fix and didn't exactly solve my problem. But more
importantly, I went to the Gmail settings and asked it to only send me
1000 emails in a single folder at most.  And after a painful and slow
client sync, I find Thunderbird so much more responsive. Was it really
all that took?  And if so, who's responsible?  Is it logical for NVDA to
lag that much in a simple list when the said list has around 10K
entries?  Maybe yes, maybe not.  Maybe Thunderbird itself, despite its
"caching" and "compacting" doesn't handle the situation very well, at
least for users relying on assistive technology.  It might be worth
reporting their way, but it probably is worth discussing here
beforehand.  Besides, Thunderbird might not be the only one suffering
from this issue.  And this "fix" might not fix anything for others.
Again, worth talking about.


The setting that changed my life was in Gmail: so login to gmail.com,
open settings / POP3 and iMAP sync (sorry for the labels that might be
somewhat different, Gmail is in French on my account), and check the
options on "when a message is marked as deleted". Just below you will
find another setting to limit the number of emails per folder.  By
default there's no limit, but if you check a limit Gmail offers you 1000
emails per folder at most.  This seems to be a good alternative.  The
remaining (for me!) 11K emails aren't deleted, but Gmail keeps them on
its server and doesn't send them to the client except if you search
(Thunderbird allows to run a full search on the server).


HTH,


Vincent








--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali


Lags in Thunderbird with NVDA

Vincent Le Goff <vincent.legoff.srs@...>
 

I dare to create a new thread to discuss this issue more.  So just to recap: some of us (not all of us) have experienced significant lags in Thunderbird over a period ranging from a few weeks to a year or so.  Hard to pinpoint the issue and since a lot of users didn't experience this, the issue was neither critical not even proven (hard to prove a lag, by all means).


This could apply to other email clients, it seems.  As far as I'm concerned, the problem was that my inbox was crowded.  Last I checked I had around 12K emails in only one folder and the older emails had been sent in 2009.  I had gone over cleaning up this folder and removing what I didn't care to keep, but there were a lot of emails I simply archived because I wanted to keep a track. And because I'm using iMap (several devices to keep in sync, I couldn't very well use Pop3), these emails were sent to every client.


A (bug) was discovered on Gmail accounts.  Deleted emails, by default, weren't deleted at all, just kept in a separate folder in Gmail which was a poor fix and didn't exactly solve my problem. But more importantly, I went to the Gmail settings and asked it to only send me 1000 emails in a single folder at most.  And after a painful and slow client sync, I find Thunderbird so much more responsive. Was it really all that took?  And if so, who's responsible?  Is it logical for NVDA to lag that much in a simple list when the said list has around 10K entries?  Maybe yes, maybe not.  Maybe Thunderbird itself, despite its "caching" and "compacting" doesn't handle the situation very well, at least for users relying on assistive technology.  It might be worth reporting their way, but it probably is worth discussing here beforehand.  Besides, Thunderbird might not be the only one suffering from this issue.  And this "fix" might not fix anything for others.  Again, worth talking about.


The setting that changed my life was in Gmail: so login to gmail.com, open settings / POP3 and iMAP sync (sorry for the labels that might be somewhat different, Gmail is in French on my account), and check the options on "when a message is marked as deleted". Just below you will find another setting to limit the number of emails per folder.  By default there's no limit, but if you check a limit Gmail offers you 1000 emails per folder at most.  This seems to be a good alternative.  The remaining (for me!) 11K emails aren't deleted, but Gmail keeps them on its server and doesn't send them to the client except if you search (Thunderbird allows to run a full search on the server).


HTH,


Vincent


Lags in Thunderbird with NVDA

Vincent Le Goff <vincent.legoff.srs@...>
 

I dare to create a new thread to discuss this issue more.  So just to recap: some of us (not all of us) have experienced significant lags in Thunderbird over a period ranging from a few weeks to a year or so.  Hard to pinpoint the issue and since a lot of users didn't experience this, the issue was neither critical not even proven (hard to prove a lag, by all means).


This could apply to other email clients, it seems.  As far as I'm concerned, the problem was that my inbox was crowded.  Last I checked I had around 12K emails in only one folder and the older emails had been sent in 2009.  I had gone over cleaning up this folder and removing what I didn't care to keep, but there were a lot of emails I simply archived because I wanted to keep a track. And because I'm using iMap (several devices to keep in sync, I couldn't very well use Pop3), these emails were sent to every client.


A (bug) was discovered on Gmail accounts.  Deleted emails, by default, weren't deleted at all, just kept in a separate folder in Gmail which was a poor fix and didn't exactly solve my problem. But more importantly, I went to the Gmail settings and asked it to only send me 1000 emails in a single folder at most.  And after a painful and slow client sync, I find Thunderbird so much more responsive.  Was it really all that took?  And if so, who's responsible?  Is it logical for NVDA to lag that much in a simple list when the said list has around 10K entries?  Maybe yes, maybe not.  Maybe Thunderbird itself, despite its "caching" and "compacting" doesn't handle the situation very well, at least for users relying on assistive technology.  It might be worth reporting their way, but it probably is worth discussing here beforehand.  Besides, Thunderbird might not be the only one suffering from this issue.  And this "fix" might not fix anything for others.  Again, worth talking about.


The setting that changed my life was in Gmail: so login to gmail.com, open settings / POP3 and iMAP sync (sorry for the labels that might be somewhat different, Gmail is in French on my account), and check the options on "when a message is marked as deleted". Just below you will find another setting to limit the number of emails per folder.  By default there's no limit, but if you check a limit Gmail offers you 1000 emails per folder at most.  This seems to be a good alternative.  The remaining (for me!) 11K emails aren't deleted, but Gmail keeps them on its server and doesn't send them to the client except if you search (Thunderbird allows to run a full search on the server).


HTH,


Vincent


Re: NVDA in Employment

 

Well there is a suggestion you should unsubscribe from the all mail folder.

Of course if you can get access to the all mail folder, if you empty the stuff you do not need, after archiving the stuff you do, into folders technically it should replicate.

Having only 1 device and no folders really prefering to store mail that is important to me outside my email, I use pop.

And even while I have an iphone 6+ now, I may not be bothering to push mail to the device because I like my keyboard on my pc and none of my email is important to view on the iphone certainly not list mail.



On 26/08/2019 7:36 PM, Vincent Le Goff wrote:

You know, that doesn’t sound so surprising.  I, to, have over 10 years of emails.  Windows mail (which I’m currently using) told me in no uncertain terms it won’t download more than a year of my emails (fine with me) but I could still search for older emails.  So I would think it might be worth doing that on Thunderbird.  I don’t know if there’s a setting to tell Thunderbird to only sync the last month as you said, and to clean up the 10 years of unnecessary emails and see if that’s better.  I would hope so!

 

Vincent

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: David Csercsics
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 12:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Employment

 

I was able to track down the thunderbird slowness to Google's silly

behaviour of archiving mail instead of deleting it from the server when

I deleted it in the client. I'm not sure how to get around this, other

than to go on the web mail and clean out the mail periodically, though I

think telling it to sync only 30 days worth of stuff should get me a lot

of the way there as well. I had something like 8 years of mail synced to

"all mail" locally, so no wonder it'd be slow. Even SSD would be slow

with a 7 gig data chunk like that.