Date   

Re: cannot check boxes.

Jackie
 

It would be nice if OCR could be taught to recognize these
checkboxes/radio buttons as such & also their state. Doesn't seem like
that should be all that hard w/AI & all that now.

On 7/4/21, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
You disagreed with me. I responded and that’s how the discussion began. I
do ;pay attention and respond to what people say. You said this in your
initial disagreement:
“I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. While I agree it can be annoying to
find one's favorite browser does not "play well" with a given site, or that
one's favorite screen reader does not, that does not mean a site is
inaccessible.”

As I said, there is a difference between accessible and usable. And you
never defined accessible. You criticized my definition as being abstract.
Without a generally accepted and defined definition of accessibility, there
would be no standards for determining when a site is or isn’t accessible
which would pose all sorts of problems.

All I said was that the problem should be called to the attention of the
bank even if a work around is found. I said nothing about people needing or
not needing to use other browsers or screen-readers. I didn’t say everyone
who encounters any site they need to use a work around to access should
complain to the site. Nor am I saying that a site has to work properly with
every possible combination of programs. But a site like this, a banking
site, should be generally accessible.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2021 7:22 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 08:03 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m saying that, in a case like this, where a major site is not usable by
a widely used screen-reader and browser or class of browsers, that site is
not accessible.
-
And I have said nothing that contradicts that in regard to this specific
site from the outset.

For the love of heaven, Gene, please read, and respond to, what I have
actually written, with the entire context of an ongoing conversation being
used as the framework. I don't make additions to a topic like this that are
each meant to stand, independently, of all others.

My very first response was to take this up with customer support since the
only change had been to the website. The screen reader and browser were the
same as have been used with their site's prior iteration.

My second was advising the offering of the specific institution in question,
as it's really impossible to know whether anyone else may have found an
accessibility method that you (the generic you) didn't, somehow.

Talking about issues like this in the abstract is as close to a complete
waste of time as one can get. I could say, I can't access the subscription
management page for my local newspaper, and it would be entirely useless to
discuss unless I could give the exact URL, or say something like it's a
Gannett paper and uses their subscription system (as there are hundreds of
papers owned and run under the Gannett name and software).

I understand the abstract concepts regarding accessibility. They're just of
little use when discussing a specific situation and whether anyone may, or
may not, have discovered a workaround. Talking about issues with
accessibility without specifics makes trying to find a solution akin to
trying to nail jello to a tree.

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.
The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression,
which are contained in and actuated by the body. What you do and say is the
clearest indicator of who you are.

~ Brian Vogel








--
Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
wp4newbs-request@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
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& check out my sites at www.brightstarsweb.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com


Re: cannot check boxes.

Gene
 

You disagreed with me.  I responded and that’s how the discussion began.  I do ;pay attention and respond to what people say.  You said this in your initial disagreement:
“I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.  While I agree it can be annoying to find one's favorite browser does not "play well" with a given site, or that one's favorite screen reader does not, that does not mean a site is inaccessible.” 
 
As I said, there is a difference between accessible and usable.  And you never defined accessible.  You criticized my definition as being abstract.  Without a generally accepted and defined definition of accessibility, there would be no standards for determining when a site is or isn’t accessible which would pose all sorts of problems. 
 
All I said was that the problem should be called to the attention of the bank even if a work around is found.  I said nothing about people needing or not needing to use other browsers or screen-readers.  I didn’t say everyone who encounters any site they need to use a work around to access should complain to the site.  Nor am I saying that a site has to work properly with every possible combination of programs.  But a site like this, a banking site, should be generally accessible. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2021 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.
 
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 08:03 PM, Gene wrote:
I’m saying that, in a case like this, where a major site is not usable by a widely used screen-reader and browser or class of browsers, that site is not accessible.
-
And I have said nothing that contradicts that in regard to this specific site from the outset.

For the love of heaven, Gene, please read, and respond to, what I have actually written, with the entire context of an ongoing conversation being used as the framework.  I don't make additions to a topic like this that are each meant to stand, independently, of all others.

My very first response was to take this up with customer support since the only change had been to the website.  The screen reader and browser were the same as have been used with their site's prior iteration.

My second was advising the offering of the specific institution in question, as it's really impossible to know whether anyone else may have found an accessibility method that you (the generic you) didn't, somehow.

Talking about issues like this in the abstract is as close to a complete waste of time as one can get.  I could say, I can't access the subscription management page for my local newspaper, and it would be entirely useless to discuss unless I could give the exact URL, or say something like it's a Gannett paper and uses their subscription system (as there are hundreds of papers owned and run under the Gannett name and software).

I understand the abstract concepts regarding accessibility.  They're just of little use when discussing a specific situation and whether anyone may, or may not, have discovered a workaround.  Talking about issues with accessibility without specifics makes trying to find a solution akin to trying to nail jello to a tree.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: cannot check boxes.

 

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 08:14 PM, Jackie wrote:
The problem is that sometimes employers don't allow installation of
anything but their permitted apps, & if that combination doesn't work,
then the person involved is screwed, to use the polite & edited
version.

Jackie, I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt as far as jumping in as an advocate in this sort of situation.

An employer can legitimately decline to diverge from their IT department's set configuration provided they don't expect you to do the thing that standard configuration precludes.  But, if it's a part of your job function, if they try to take it away from you (and have not from others who are sighted) then one can, and should, complain loudly about workplace discrimination.  

But, the above being said, I really have found that the squeaky wheel gets the grease provided it isn't a wildly disruptive squeaky wheel.  I can't say that it's easy, because it's not, but it's far from impossible to get waivers with regard to technology that falls under the umbrella of reasonable accommodations.  And if you don't fight for it, it's definitely not going to happen.

One of the most miserable things about being "out of the mainstream" in virtually any way, blindness specifically here, is that you are constantly called upon to be an advocate for yourself not because people are malicious, but because they're entirely ignorant.  It's something you just can't get away from, and if you don't or won't do it, no one else is going to because they don't have a clue.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: cannot check boxes.

 

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 08:03 PM, Gene wrote:
I’m saying that, in a case like this, where a major site is not usable by a widely used screen-reader and browser or class of browsers, that site is not accessible.
-
And I have said nothing that contradicts that in regard to this specific site from the outset.

For the love of heaven, Gene, please read, and respond to, what I have actually written, with the entire context of an ongoing conversation being used as the framework.  I don't make additions to a topic like this that are each meant to stand, independently, of all others.

My very first response was to take this up with customer support since the only change had been to the website.  The screen reader and browser were the same as have been used with their site's prior iteration.

My second was advising the offering of the specific institution in question, as it's really impossible to know whether anyone else may have found an accessibility method that you (the generic you) didn't, somehow.

Talking about issues like this in the abstract is as close to a complete waste of time as one can get.  I could say, I can't access the subscription management page for my local newspaper, and it would be entirely useless to discuss unless I could give the exact URL, or say something like it's a Gannett paper and uses their subscription system (as there are hundreds of papers owned and run under the Gannett name and software).

I understand the abstract concepts regarding accessibility.  They're just of little use when discussing a specific situation and whether anyone may, or may not, have discovered a workaround.  Talking about issues with accessibility without specifics makes trying to find a solution akin to trying to nail jello to a tree.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: cannot check boxes.

Pranav Lal
 

Hi Monte,

 

You could capture a debug log as you work through the page and share that privately with nvaccess and get their help in interpreting the log.

 

That way, you may get closer to a resolution.

Pranav

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Monte Single
Sent: Monday, July 5, 2021 2:05 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.

 

Hi, Brian,

Oh yes,  I had a lengthy session with customer service  with no joy and requested that the problem be forwarded to my branch manager and the IT person.

 

Thought  someone on the list might have some kind of keystroke combo  suggestion.

 

Still dancing in the dark,

 

Monte

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: July 4, 2021 2:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.

 

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 04:16 PM, Monte Single wrote:

Recently, my  credit union  made some changes to the online banking experience.

-
Contact customer service and report this.  If you haven't changed NVDA, or Windows, and this is now occurring immediately after those changes then suspect the changes.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: cannot check boxes.

Jackie
 

The problem is that sometimes employers don't allow installation of
anything but their permitted apps, & if that combination doesn't work,
then the person involved is screwed, to use the polite & edited
version.

A lot of web developers seem to be going to these graphical
checkboxes--they look in every way like checkboxes to the sighted
person, but not at all like them to a screen reader. That applies to
radio buttons as well.

It seems like that, in Chrome browsers, when image descriptions are
turned on, the browser tries to get an image description when the box
is checked, because it thinks it sees a graphic, whereas it just says
nothing when it isn't. I havent tested this out enough yet to be
entirely sure of this, but I'll be working on it more throughout the
coming days, as I'm facing these a lot.

On 7/4/21, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I’m not disagreeing that people need to know how to use more than one
browser and screen-reader for such situations. It isn’t difficult to know
other browsers or screen-readers to the extent necessary for that purpose.

I’m saying that, in a case like this, where a major site is not usable by a
widely used screen-reader and browser or class of browsers, that site is not
accessible. I’m not talking about some minor function, I’m talking about
not usable for one or more major functions.
If you have a different definition of accessible than the recognized one,
that’s a different question. but if Amazon argued that its site is
accessible because it works with Firefox and JAWS even if it doesn’t work
with NVDA and Chrome-based browsers that isn’t accessibility. It can be
used but it isn’t properly accessible.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2021 6:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 07:24 PM, Gene wrote:

But the definition of accessible is not stated in such a way that a site
that works with Firefox and not with chrome-based browsers would be
considered accessible.
-
But the reality is that some sites do, or do not, play well with a given
class of browser. And just because they don't play well with one does not
make them inaccessible in any meaningful way.

I don't give a damn about what the abstract definition of accessible might
be. I understand that in real life even software that has been developed
with virtually any accessibility standard you can think of in mind will
rarely hit a snag under specific circumstances, and those are, while not
exactly common, not uncommon in regard to websites and web browsers.

This isn't about the semantics of accessibility on my side, but practical
considerations based on real world experiences. The definition of
accessibility seems to be what you've been and continue to be focused on.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.
The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression,
which are contained in and actuated by the body. What you do and say is the
clearest indicator of who you are.

~ Brian Vogel








--
Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
wp4newbs-request@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/wp4newbs
& check out my sites at www.brightstarsweb.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com


Re: cannot check boxes.

Gene
 

I’m not disagreeing that people need to know how to use more than one browser and screen-reader for such situations.  It isn’t difficult to know other browsers or screen-readers to the extent necessary for that purpose. 
 
I’m saying that, in a case like this, where a major site is not usable by a widely used screen-reader and browser or class of browsers, that site is not accessible.  I’m not talking about some minor function, I’m talking about not usable for one or more major functions.
If you have a different definition of accessible than the recognized one, that’s a different question.  but if Amazon argued that its site is accessible because it works with Firefox and JAWS even if it doesn’t work with NVDA and Chrome-based browsers that isn’t accessibility.  It can be used but it isn’t properly accessible. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2021 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.
 
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 07:24 PM, Gene wrote:
But the definition of accessible is not stated in such a way that a site that works with Firefox and not with chrome-based browsers would be considered accessible.
-
But the reality is that some sites do, or do not, play well with a given class of browser.  And just because they don't play well with one does not make them inaccessible in any meaningful way.

I don't give a damn about what the abstract definition of accessible might be.  I understand that in real life even software that has been developed with virtually any accessibility standard you can think of in mind will rarely hit a snag under specific circumstances, and those are, while not exactly common, not uncommon in regard to websites and web browsers.

This isn't about the semantics of accessibility on my side, but practical considerations based on real world experiences.  The definition of accessibility seems to be what you've been and continue to be focused on.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: cannot check boxes.

 

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 07:24 PM, Gene wrote:
But the definition of accessible is not stated in such a way that a site that works with Firefox and not with chrome-based browsers would be considered accessible. 
-
But the reality is that some sites do, or do not, play well with a given class of browser.  And just because they don't play well with one does not make them inaccessible in any meaningful way.

I don't give a damn about what the abstract definition of accessible might be.  I understand that in real life even software that has been developed with virtually any accessibility standard you can think of in mind will rarely hit a snag under specific circumstances, and those are, while not exactly common, not uncommon in regard to websites and web browsers.

This isn't about the semantics of accessibility on my side, but practical considerations based on real world experiences.  The definition of accessibility seems to be what you've been and continue to be focused on.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: cannot check boxes.

Gene
 

Brave is a special case and I have found occasions when something doesn’t work because of Brave security settings.  But that isn’t an accessibility issue.  That is a Brave issue. It may be a necessary inconvenience because of what Brave does.
 
The definition of accessibility states ways in which sites should function, for example, there is a statement something like that controls should work from the keyboard.  If Chrome-based browsers don’t work properly on a site, that is a whole class of browsers.  I understand the reality of needing to use different browsers and/or screen-readers on some sites, and I’m not saying every site that has this or that problem should be reported or made a major issue of.  But the definition of accessible is not stated in such a way that a site that works with Firefox and not with chrome-based browsers would be considered accessible. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2021 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.
 
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 06:21 PM, Gene wrote:
If it works with one browser and/or screen-reader and not with another combination of well recognized standard programs, it isn’t accessible, its usable under certain conditions which isn’t the same thing..
-
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.  While I agree it can be annoying to find one's favorite browser does not "play well" with a given site, or that one's favorite screen reader does not, that does not mean a site is inaccessible.

Issues with interactions, which are hopefully (and, in actuality, in my experience are) rare, between a specific screen reader and a specific browser with a specific website are simply something that happens.  That's why everyone, including the sighted, needs to be willing and able to try a different browser with specific sites.  I have to do this all the time since Brave, with it's stringent privacy focus, does not play well with certain websites (including, but not limited to, the New York Times).

Occasional interaction issues are a fact of life and, because they are, you need to be ready to try other screen readers and browsers when necessary.

I'd still report the issue, that's for sure, but very often what you're going to hear, whether sighted or blind, is to try it with another browser.  I got precisely that response from the New York Times with regard to a recent trouble ticket I filed.  And since it works with the browser they recommended, plus several others, it would be unreasonable of me to believe they should feel any pressing need to make changes so that my preferred browser works.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: cannot check boxes.

Gene
 

I’m discussing times when I want to move the mouse to the place I want to click.  With mouse tracking on, the default NVDA setting, I hear nothing announced when I move the virtual mouse, using numpad insert numpad slash. That indicates that the mouse didn’t move.  Also, a left click either does nothing or moves focus outside of the browser window indicating that the mouse isn’t even in it.
 
I see this on a lot of web pages.  I haven’t used JAWS for years but my recollection is that the same problem exists there. 
 
If I am drawing the right conclusion from my experience and your comments, it would seem that a physical mouse may allow me to move to where I want, though I wonder how cumbersome that would be.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2021 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.
 
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 05:18 PM, Jackie wrote:
a move mouse to navigator object, & then a left mouse click.
-
Just curious if you mean a literal left mouse click or a screen-reader emulated left mouse click?

The reason I ask is a way of addressing Gene's questions, but indirectly.  It has been my observation, regardless of the screen reader involved, that emulated mouse clicks are not anywhere near to reliable.

I can't count the number of times over the years where a route mouse to navigator object has been issued, focus has changed (I most often have some sort of focus highlight on if I'm working with a screen reader, even when with a client, because movement in the virtual cursor very often "does not track" with where I'd expect to be next gaining focus), but the emulated click does nothing.  Most often a literal left click from the mousepad or mouse itself will.  This is the main reason I keep saying that there is very good reason to either mask the thumbpad that lets you move the mouse on a laptop, or tape over the tracking laser on an optical mouse, so that you have access to a real left and right click.  It sometimes makes the difference between success and failure in activating certain controls.  And, no, I have yet to decipher any sort of pattern that would indicate which will or won't work with a screen reader emulated mouse click.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: cannot check boxes.

 

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 06:45 PM, Monte Single wrote:
It is definitely something on their website that has changed.
-
Which has been what I believed to be the root cause from the outset.  The "improved" version very simply isn't.  To me, even as a sighted individual, a major regression that breaks accessibility is something that should not have made it out and "into the wild."  Someone's testing protocol is lacking.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: cannot check boxes.

Monte Single
 

The problem started right after the bank sent email to all customers praising its new and improved browsing experience.

It is definitely something on their wbsite that has changed.e

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: July 4, 2021 4:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.

 

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 06:21 PM, Gene wrote:

If it works with one browser and/or screen-reader and not with another combination of well recognized standard programs, it isn’t accessible, its usable under certain conditions which isn’t the same thing..

-
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.  While I agree it can be annoying to find one's favorite browser does not "play well" with a given site, or that one's favorite screen reader does not, that does not mean a site is inaccessible.

Issues with interactions, which are hopefully (and, in actuality, in my experience are) rare, between a specific screen reader and a specific browser with a specific website are simply something that happens.  That's why everyone, including the sighted, needs to be willing and able to try a different browser with specific sites.  I have to do this all the time since Brave, with it's stringent privacy focus, does not play well with certain websites (including, but not limited to, the New York Times).

Occasional interaction issues are a fact of life and, because they are, you need to be ready to try other screen readers and browsers when necessary.

I'd still report the issue, that's for sure, but very often what you're going to hear, whether sighted or blind, is to try it with another browser.  I got precisely that response from the New York Times with regard to a recent trouble ticket I filed.  And since it works with the browser they recommended, plus several others, it would be unreasonable of me to believe they should feel any pressing need to make changes so that my preferred browser works.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: cannot check boxes.

 

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 06:21 PM, Gene wrote:
If it works with one browser and/or screen-reader and not with another combination of well recognized standard programs, it isn’t accessible, its usable under certain conditions which isn’t the same thing..
-
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.  While I agree it can be annoying to find one's favorite browser does not "play well" with a given site, or that one's favorite screen reader does not, that does not mean a site is inaccessible.

Issues with interactions, which are hopefully (and, in actuality, in my experience are) rare, between a specific screen reader and a specific browser with a specific website are simply something that happens.  That's why everyone, including the sighted, needs to be willing and able to try a different browser with specific sites.  I have to do this all the time since Brave, with it's stringent privacy focus, does not play well with certain websites (including, but not limited to, the New York Times).

Occasional interaction issues are a fact of life and, because they are, you need to be ready to try other screen readers and browsers when necessary.

I'd still report the issue, that's for sure, but very often what you're going to hear, whether sighted or blind, is to try it with another browser.  I got precisely that response from the New York Times with regard to a recent trouble ticket I filed.  And since it works with the browser they recommended, plus several others, it would be unreasonable of me to believe they should feel any pressing need to make changes so that my preferred browser works.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: cannot check boxes.

Jackie
 

I usually try the screen reader simulated click first, &, if no
workie, I reach over & do a physical left click. I too have not found
any patterns about what works when.

On 7/4/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 05:18 PM, Jackie wrote:


a move mouse to navigator object, & then a left mouse click.
-
Just curious if you mean a literal left mouse click or a screen-reader
emulated left mouse click?

The reason I ask is a way of addressing Gene's questions, but indirectly.
It has been my observation, regardless of the screen reader involved, that
emulated mouse clicks are not anywhere near to reliable.

I can't count the number of times over the years where a route mouse to
navigator object has been issued, focus has changed (I most often have some
sort of focus highlight on if I'm working with a screen reader, even when
with a client, because movement in the virtual cursor very often "does not
track" with where I'd expect to be next gaining focus), but the emulated
click does nothing.  Most often a literal left click from the mousepad or
mouse itself will.  This is the main reason I keep saying that there is very
good reason to either mask the thumbpad that lets you move the mouse on a
laptop, or tape over the tracking laser on an optical mouse, so that you
have access to a real left and right click.  It sometimes makes the
difference between success and failure in activating certain controls.  And,
no, I have yet to decipher any sort of pattern that would indicate which
will or won't work with a screen reader emulated mouse click.

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.
The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression,
which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the
clearest indicator of who you are.

~ Brian Vogel





--
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Re: cannot check boxes.

 

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 05:18 PM, Jackie wrote:
a move mouse to navigator object, & then a left mouse click.
-
Just curious if you mean a literal left mouse click or a screen-reader emulated left mouse click?

The reason I ask is a way of addressing Gene's questions, but indirectly.  It has been my observation, regardless of the screen reader involved, that emulated mouse clicks are not anywhere near to reliable.

I can't count the number of times over the years where a route mouse to navigator object has been issued, focus has changed (I most often have some sort of focus highlight on if I'm working with a screen reader, even when with a client, because movement in the virtual cursor very often "does not track" with where I'd expect to be next gaining focus), but the emulated click does nothing.  Most often a literal left click from the mousepad or mouse itself will.  This is the main reason I keep saying that there is very good reason to either mask the thumbpad that lets you move the mouse on a laptop, or tape over the tracking laser on an optical mouse, so that you have access to a real left and right click.  It sometimes makes the difference between success and failure in activating certain controls.  And, no, I have yet to decipher any sort of pattern that would indicate which will or won't work with a screen reader emulated mouse click.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: cannot check boxes.

Gene
 

Even if it does, it would be a good idea to complain to the bank.  Accessibility means that a web site is accessible to any standard screen-reader.  If it works with one browser and/or screen-reader and not with another combination of well recognized standard programs, it isn’t accessible, its usable under certain conditions which isn’t the same thing..
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Arlene
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2021 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.
 

Yeah, try another browser, or if you have another screen reader try it. Or continue to use NVDA if you don’t have any other. If it doesn’t work using another browser or another screen reader. Then call your bank.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: July 4, 2021 2:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.

 

You could try another browser.  I doubt that will solve the problem but there’s no harm trying.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Monte Single

Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2021 3:34 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.

 

Hi, Brian,

Oh yes,  I had a lengthy session with customer service  with no joy and requested that the problem be forwarded to my branch manager and the IT person.

 

Thought  someone on the list might have some kind of keystroke combo  suggestion.

 

Still dancing in the dark,

 

Monte

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: July 4, 2021 2:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.

 

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 04:16 PM, Monte Single wrote:

Recently, my  credit union  made some changes to the online banking experience.

-
Contact customer service and report this.  If you haven't changed NVDA, or Windows, and this is now occurring immediately after those changes then suspect the changes.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 

 


Re: cannot check boxes.

Arlene
 

Yeah, try another browser, or if you have another screen reader try it. Or continue to use NVDA if you don’t have any other. If it doesn’t work using another browser or another screen reader. Then call your bank.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: July 4, 2021 2:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.

 

You could try another browser.  I doubt that will solve the problem but there’s no harm trying.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2021 3:34 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.

 

Hi, Brian,

Oh yes,  I had a lengthy session with customer service  with no joy and requested that the problem be forwarded to my branch manager and the IT person.

 

Thought  someone on the list might have some kind of keystroke combo  suggestion.

 

Still dancing in the dark,

 

Monte

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: July 4, 2021 2:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.

 

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 04:16 PM, Monte Single wrote:

Recently, my  credit union  made some changes to the online banking experience.

-
Contact customer service and report this.  If you haven't changed NVDA, or Windows, and this is now occurring immediately after those changes then suspect the changes.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 

 


Re: cannot check boxes.

Gene
 

That may work.  Unfortunately, I find many web pages where the mouse doesn’t move to your position.  That is, the screen-reader’s virtual mouse.  I haven’t tried, but I wonder if a physical mouse can be used in such cases.  I haven’t run across a web site with anything so important to me to do that I’ve bought a mouse and experimented with it.  I may one of these days.
 
But those who know about how NVDA and probably other screen-readers work technically may, I hope, be able to explain why, so often, the move mouse command doesn’t work on web pages. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Jackie
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2021 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.
 
O yeah--& sometimes I have to do a move mouse to navigator object, &
then a left mouse click.

On 7/4/21, Jackie McBride <abletec@...> wrote:
> Monte, I'm not sure why, but there are times when the traditional
> keystrokes don't work. Sometimes, I have to move to focus, ie.
> (NVDA+numpadMinus for desktop, NVDA+backspace for laptop) then do a
> left mouse click.
>
> Having thus said, be certain the checkbox isn't checked by just using
> regular spacebar. Sometimes it is, but it's not reported by NVDA.
> Again, these keys can help.
>
> I definitely urge you to contact your credit union's highest echelons
> to discuss your accessibility concerns, as they are supposedly legally
> bound to provide accessible services, but we all know how that goes.
>
> On 7/4/21, Monte Single <mrsingle@...> wrote:
>> Hi, Brian,
>>
>> Oh yes,  I had a lengthy session with customer service  with no joy and
>> requested that the problem be forwarded to my branch manager and the IT
>> person.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thought  someone on the list might have some kind of keystroke combo
>> suggestion.
>>
>>
>>
>> Still dancing in the dark,
>>
>>
>>
>> Monte
>>
>>
>>
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
>> Sent: July 4, 2021 2:18 PM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 04:16 PM, Monte Single wrote:
>>
>> Recently, my  credit union  made some changes to the online banking
>> experience.
>>
>> -
>> Contact customer service and report this.  If you haven't changed NVDA,
>> or
>> Windows, and this is now occurring immediately after those changes then
>> suspect the changes.
>> --
>>
>> Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043
>>
>> I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their
>> actions.
>> The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and
>> expression,
>> which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is
>> the
>> clearest indicator of who you are.
>>
>>       ~ Brian Vogel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
> wp4newbs-request@... with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
> visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/wp4newbs
> & check out my sites at www.brightstarsweb.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com
>


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Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
wp4newbs-request@... with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
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Re: cannot check boxes.

Gene
 

You could try another browser.  I doubt that will solve the problem but there’s no harm trying.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2021 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.
 

Hi, Brian,

Oh yes,  I had a lengthy session with customer service  with no joy and requested that the problem be forwarded to my branch manager and the IT person.

 

Thought  someone on the list might have some kind of keystroke combo  suggestion.

 

Still dancing in the dark,

 

Monte

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: July 4, 2021 2:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.

 

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 04:16 PM, Monte Single wrote:

Recently, my  credit union  made some changes to the online banking experience.

-
Contact customer service and report this.  If you haven't changed NVDA, or Windows, and this is now occurring immediately after those changes then suspect the changes.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: cannot check boxes.

Jackie
 

O yeah--& sometimes I have to do a move mouse to navigator object, &
then a left mouse click.

On 7/4/21, Jackie McBride <abletec@gmail.com> wrote:
Monte, I'm not sure why, but there are times when the traditional
keystrokes don't work. Sometimes, I have to move to focus, ie.
(NVDA+numpadMinus for desktop, NVDA+backspace for laptop) then do a
left mouse click.

Having thus said, be certain the checkbox isn't checked by just using
regular spacebar. Sometimes it is, but it's not reported by NVDA.
Again, these keys can help.

I definitely urge you to contact your credit union's highest echelons
to discuss your accessibility concerns, as they are supposedly legally
bound to provide accessible services, but we all know how that goes.

On 7/4/21, Monte Single <mrsingle@sasktel.net> wrote:
Hi, Brian,

Oh yes, I had a lengthy session with customer service with no joy and
requested that the problem be forwarded to my branch manager and the IT
person.



Thought someone on the list might have some kind of keystroke combo
suggestion.



Still dancing in the dark,



Monte



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: July 4, 2021 2:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] cannot check boxes.



On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 04:16 PM, Monte Single wrote:

Recently, my credit union made some changes to the online banking
experience.

-
Contact customer service and report this. If you haven't changed NVDA,
or
Windows, and this is now occurring immediately after those changes then
suspect the changes.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their
actions.
The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and
expression,
which are contained in and actuated by the body. What you do and say is
the
clearest indicator of who you are.

~ Brian Vogel











--
Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
wp4newbs-request@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/wp4newbs
& check out my sites at www.brightstarsweb.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com
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Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
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