Date   

locked Re: NVDA and the Wells Fargo web page

 

Well, this topic now presents a teachable moment just prior to it being locked, as all information necessary for end users to have has now been offered.

To members who believe an off-topic message has been posted, please do not blast offense about same to the entire group, as that in and of itself is clutter.  Send a message to the group owner e-mail address for the group, nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io in this case, to bring it to their attention.  If it's off-topic it will be locked, with annotation regarding why.

To members who are justifiably offended by rudeness, please take that up via private message to the offender, using the "Reply to sender" link at the end of the individual message that caused offense.  You should also feel free to send a message to the group owner about the offending message if you believe that it is of a nature that requires additional attention.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Puritanism:  The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

        ~ H.L. Mencken

 

 


locked Re: NVDA and the Wells Fargo web page

Pascal Lambert <coccinelle86@...>
 

Thank you for your lack of kindness.  You could convey your message in a nicer way and it won’t hurt you!  Rudeness will scare people who might need the assistance from reaching out!

Blessings

Pascal

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Carlos
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 8:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and the Wells Fargo web page

 

This has "NOTHING!" to do with NVDA!

    Please stop cluttering up the list with non-NVDA related issues!

    Please take this one to the chat list or some other browser related list!

 

    Clutter!!!!!!!!!!

 

On 6/28/2019 4:54 AM, Pascal Lambert wrote:

Hi all,

First, anyone using Wells Fargo that is encountering the same problem that is opening combo boxes or list to choose from such in the “from account” and the “to account” to make payment?

It is only recently that I started encountering the problem.  Wells Fargo had an issue a month ago with scheduling payment and they fixed it.  The fix might be the cause for those of us who use a screen reader.  I am talking to them about it and I just want to make sure it is not an NVDA issue.  Please help.

Many thanks

Blessings

Pascal 

-- 
 
Windows 10 Home, 64 Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 - NVDA Version 2019.1.1


Re: Does Instant Translator still work?

Hermann-Josef Kurzen
 

Hi Ollie,

Instant Translate Addon still works very fine.


Greetings - Hermann


--- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---

Von: "Mallard" <mallard@kimabe.eu> Wichtigkeit Normal
Lesebestätigung wurde nicht angefordert
Gesendet am: Fr, 28. Juni 2019 14:24:38
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io;
CC:
Betreff: [nvda] Does Instant Translator still work?
Verwendetes Mailprogramm: vermutlich online im WEB erstellt

Hello all,


I'm wondering whether the Instant Translator add-on still works. I would
really need it.

Ciao,thanks,

Ollie





Re: Does Instant Translator still work?

Mallard
 

Many thanks. I'll have a go at it.

Ciao,

Ollie

Il 28/06/2019 15:01, Daniel Damacena ha scritto:
I don't know if it is working currently, but I recommend qtranslate (q translate). It is quite light, simple and has hotkeys, which you can change, to access it's features rapidly.


locked Re: NVDA and the Wells Fargo web page

Pascal Lambert <coccinelle86@...>
 

Hi Brian,

The suggest use of “CTRL-Enter” opened the combo box but did not allow me to move down the list.

Blessings

Pascal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and the Wells Fargo web page

 

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 07:54 AM, Pascal Lambert wrote:

Wells Fargo had an issue a month ago with scheduling payment and they fixed it.  The fix might be the cause for those of us who use a screen reader.  I am talking to them about it and I just want to make sure it is not an NVDA issue.

Pascal, do you use (even as a secondary) any other screen reader?   If so, try accessing the same controls with it.  This is one way that one can come to a reasonably fast conclusion as to whether an issue is screen reader related versus something else (web coding, in this case).  If the behavior is the same, blame the web coding, if it's different, suspect the screen reader.

It could always be an NVDA issue but given the timeline you've described my guess is that it probably won't be.

And, by the way, changes in accessibility when using NVDA, since they have the potential to be caused by NVDA, are definitely questions related to the use of NVDA.  If it's determined NVDA is not where the fault lies, only after that would the topic not be related to NVDA.  And reporting back that one has determined where the fault lies is perfectly OK, too.  This is what users need to know.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Puritanism:  The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

        ~ H.L. Mencken

 

 


locked Re: NVDA and the Wells Fargo web page

Pascal Lambert <coccinelle86@...>
 

Thank you Brian.  I tried using Narrator and had the same result.  An NVDA and Wells Fargo user just suggested to use CTRL-Enter to open the menu.  I will check it right now and let you know in case others run into the same issue.

Blessings

Pascal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and the Wells Fargo web page

 

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 07:54 AM, Pascal Lambert wrote:

Wells Fargo had an issue a month ago with scheduling payment and they fixed it.  The fix might be the cause for those of us who use a screen reader.  I am talking to them about it and I just want to make sure it is not an NVDA issue.

Pascal, do you use (even as a secondary) any other screen reader?   If so, try accessing the same controls with it.  This is one way that one can come to a reasonably fast conclusion as to whether an issue is screen reader related versus something else (web coding, in this case).  If the behavior is the same, blame the web coding, if it's different, suspect the screen reader.

It could always be an NVDA issue but given the timeline you've described my guess is that it probably won't be.

And, by the way, changes in accessibility when using NVDA, since they have the potential to be caused by NVDA, are definitely questions related to the use of NVDA.  If it's determined NVDA is not where the fault lies, only after that would the topic not be related to NVDA.  And reporting back that one has determined where the fault lies is perfectly OK, too.  This is what users need to know.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Puritanism:  The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

        ~ H.L. Mencken

 

 


locked Re: NVDA and the Wells Fargo web page

 

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 07:54 AM, Pascal Lambert wrote:
Wells Fargo had an issue a month ago with scheduling payment and they fixed it.  The fix might be the cause for those of us who use a screen reader.  I am talking to them about it and I just want to make sure it is not an NVDA issue.
Pascal, do you use (even as a secondary) any other screen reader?   If so, try accessing the same controls with it.  This is one way that one can come to a reasonably fast conclusion as to whether an issue is screen reader related versus something else (web coding, in this case).  If the behavior is the same, blame the web coding, if it's different, suspect the screen reader.

It could always be an NVDA issue but given the timeline you've described my guess is that it probably won't be.

And, by the way, changes in accessibility when using NVDA, since they have the potential to be caused by NVDA, are definitely questions related to the use of NVDA.  If it's determined NVDA is not where the fault lies, only after that would the topic not be related to NVDA.  And reporting back that one has determined where the fault lies is perfectly OK, too.  This is what users need to know.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Puritanism:  The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

        ~ H.L. Mencken

 

 


Re: Does Instant Translator still work?

Daniel Damacena
 

I don't know if it is working currently, but I recommend qtranslate (q translate). It is quite light, simple and has hotkeys, which you can change, to access it's features rapidly.


Re: Windows10.1903 and NVDA’s saying Volume level?

 

Hi,
The way it is implemented requires an option to turn off notifications, which isn't possible for a certain type of notification used for these. I'll look into resolving this shortly.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerardo Corripio
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 5:40 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Windows10.1903 and NVDA’s saying Volume level?

Yesterday afternoon, I updated my HP Pavilion Laptop to Windows10.1903 with latest stable NVDA; I’m really enjoying the new characteristic in which when pressing FN+F7&F8 to lower and raise the Laptop’s volume (on some Laptops like my previous one this was FN+F8&F9), NVDA says Volume Level, thus making it a blast to be able to determine if the volume is at the adequate level! I’d like, if 1.-the option of turning this off and on would be available; I’m aware not everyone likes this characteristic.
2.-If it’d say the volume percentage as one slides the volume control with the before-mentioned keys?

Gera
Enviado desde mi iPhone SE de Telcel


locked Re: NVDA and the Wells Fargo web page

 

Carlos,

This has "NOTHING!" to do with NVDA!

Weird... I just read something about NVDA on this very same topic.

Pascal wrote:
I am talking to them about it and I just want to make sure it is not an NVDA issue
Nonetheless, I think it's the moderators' role to tell what's and what's not on topic and as far as I know you aren't one of them. Sorry if I'm going wrong on this one!

Sometimes I just think that you all on this "that's not NVDA related" side of the fence just overdo it. Also remember that if this is an offtopic at all, answering it will make the topic more and more alive so if you really think something is offtopic and you aren't on the role to have a say about it, you should just wait for the topic to die.

Just my two cents.

Now, supposedly I should shut up because well, that's not my role as well. *smiles*

Cheers,
Marcio AKA Starboy

Sent from a galaxy far, far away.

--
Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list to help and be helped with all Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more!


Windows10.1903 and NVDA’s saying Volume level?

Gerardo Corripio
 

Yesterday afternoon, I updated my HP Pavilion Laptop to Windows10.1903 with latest stable NVDA; I’m really enjoying the new characteristic in which when pressing FN+F7&F8 to lower and raise the Laptop’s volume (on some Laptops like my previous one this was FN+F8&F9), NVDA says Volume Level, thus making it a blast to be able to determine if the volume is at the adequate level! I’d like, if
1.-the option of turning this off and on would be available; I’m aware not everyone likes this characteristic.
2.-If it’d say the volume percentage as one slides the volume control with the before-mentioned keys?

Gera
Enviado desde mi iPhone SE de Telcel


Does Instant Translator still work?

Mallard
 

Hello all,


I'm wondering whether the Instant Translator add-on still works. I would really need it.

Ciao,thanks,

Ollie


locked Re: NVDA and the Wells Fargo web page

Carlos
 

This has "NOTHING!" to do with NVDA!

    Please stop cluttering up the list with non-NVDA related issues!

    Please take this one to the chat list or some other browser related list!


    Clutter!!!!!!!!!!


On 6/28/2019 4:54 AM, Pascal Lambert wrote:

Hi all,

First, anyone using Wells Fargo that is encountering the same problem that is opening combo boxes or list to choose from such in the “from account” and the “to account” to make payment?

It is only recently that I started encountering the problem.  Wells Fargo had an issue a month ago with scheduling payment and they fixed it.  The fix might be the cause for those of us who use a screen reader.  I am talking to them about it and I just want to make sure it is not an NVDA issue.  Please help.

Many thanks

Blessings

Pascal 

-- 

Windows 10 Home, 64 Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362 - NVDA Version 2019.1.1


locked NVDA and the Wells Fargo web page

Pascal Lambert <coccinelle86@...>
 

Hi all,

First, anyone using Wells Fargo that is encountering the same problem that is opening combo boxes or list to choose from such in the “from account” and the “to account” to make payment?

It is only recently that I started encountering the problem.  Wells Fargo had an issue a month ago with scheduling payment and they fixed it.  The fix might be the cause for those of us who use a screen reader.  I am talking to them about it and I just want to make sure it is not an NVDA issue.  Please help.

Many thanks

Blessings

Pascal 


Re: Couple questions about portable version of NVDA

Luke Davis
 

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019, Nimer Jaber wrote:

1. Narrator does not require saving settings before they are applied.
I do not know if Narrator includes one-step settings that can render it useless to the user upon next launch, so I can not comment.

2. Windows does not require saving settings before they are applied.
This would be equivalent, approximately, to changing major display settings that could make the display un-viewable by a sighted user.
I have not tried this recently, but at the very least, the last time I did do something like that, I had to select "OK", before the setting was saved.
That may or may not still be the case.
If it is not, however, I do know that I can always boot the machine in safe mode, and will then be able to see the display, make any adjustments, and reboot. Well, I won't, but someone will who can actually see it.
So my response to your point 2, is that Windows either requires you to hit OK, which is a second step save of the settings, or it provides you an emergency way out. That aside, such settings are much more difficult to change, than the three or four keystrokes it takes to make default NVDA unusable on next launch as I described in my last message.

> 3. Voiceover does not require saving settings before they are applied.

Quite right.

Blind people don't need coddling. It is the responsibility of each individual to learn and know how to operate the screen reader. In any of the cases
They don't. But we don't need to make it potentially more difficult for them just because we can, either.
As Gene pointed out: users confident enough in their abilities to use an auto-save feature, should be free to turn it on.
Users do not even have to memorize the "absolutely pointless command" NVDA-ctrl-c. There is a "save configuration" option on the NVDA main menu, that is not unlike the save option in any other program.

described, simply changing the profile with a couple of presses of the keyboard, or simply reverting the settings would do the trick. I don't reboot my
computer at the hint of anything that doesn't work correctly, and if trainers teach this, it is puzzling. Especially because, in your cases, since the
The situation I described is not a "hint". It is a shouted declarative that "you can't use this computer any more. Fix it some how" The user can't do anything else until the problem is resolved. An inexperienced user will find that a very disconcerting situation, I assure you.

I did not mean to suggest "trainers". I was speaking of being "trained" in the Pavlovian sense. What is the most common advice anyone with a computer problem, sighted, blind, or otherwise, is given? "Did you try rebooting?" Even the NVDA bug report issue template has as one of its mandatory questions: "Does the problem persist after you reboot?" Rebooting to solve otherwise insurmountable problems (insurmountable from the prospective of the user, not unsolvable by someone with sufficient technical knowledge) is Windows 101 from the days of Windows 3.1. It appears in nearly every Microsoft support thread I have ever read, and is the first step on a great many Windows technical support calls for various reasons.

speech would be unintelligible, users would probably have to hold down the power button to turn off the computer, right?
Maybe, though sometimes just pressing the power button is enough. It rather depends on your configuration. Never the less in my example, any sighted assistant unfamiliar with NVDA, is likely to be able to restart with a mouse, and is likely to try it.

Anyway, if you want to argue with me further, bring the topic somewhere else. At the end of the day, your opinions and mine don't matter very much in the
scheme of this thread. Answer questions, interject fewer opinions, lose the argumentative, arrogant style, and you may be liked and respected a bit more.
I apologize for any apparent arrogance. None was intended. I have no interest in arguing with you beyond the scope of the merits of whether the setting is best in its default or not, which was the original question relative to NVDA. And I have likely said all I need to about my opinion of that.

As to whether I am liked and respected: I am unclear as to its relevance to NVDA, or to anything, really, so will refrain from commenting.

Luke


Re: Couple questions about portable version of NVDA

Nimer Jaber
 

1. Narrator does not require saving settings before they are applied.
2. Windows does not require saving settings before they are applied.
3. Voiceover does not require saving settings before they are applied.

Blind people don't need coddling. It is the responsibility of each individual to learn and know how to operate the screen reader. In any of the cases described, simply changing the profile with a couple of presses of the keyboard, or simply reverting the settings would do the trick. I don't reboot my computer at the hint of anything that doesn't work correctly, and if trainers teach this, it is puzzling. Especially because, in your cases, since the speech would be unintelligible, users would probably have to hold down the power button to turn off the computer, right?

Anyway, if you want to argue with me further, bring the topic somewhere else. At the end of the day, your opinions and mine don't matter very much in the scheme of this thread. Answer questions, interject fewer opinions, lose the argumentative, arrogant style, and you may be liked and respected a bit more.

Thanks.


On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 2:27 AM Luke Davis <luke@...> wrote:
Nimer

You seem to have two assumptions here with which I disagree:

1. That a new user understands enough about NVDA to know that it is possible to
revert to factory settings if he gets himself in a settings related difficulty,
and to have memorized *how* that is to be done.

2. That users, especially new users, always know what they are doing, or
remember how to un-do the last configuration change they made. (Quoting you:
"After reboot you can change them back to whatever you want.") Frankly, I would
have thought your time on this list would have shown the fallacy of that one.

While you jumped all over Gene, I was the one who first mockingly called the
setting "make all your mistakes permanent" in this thread, although of course
Gene has been making this argument for a long time. But here's why I agree with
him.

I will sight just one example.

I use speech at a reasonably high rate by default (eSpeak at 80, and speed it
up or slow it down depending on what I'm doing).  But I know many blind people,
who can't understand super fast speech, especially those new to synthetic
speech.
NVDA with rate boost enabled, at least in certain synths, can definitely produce
such incomprehensible speech.

So let's say you have a new user, playing with NVDA keyboard commands, who
stumbles on the rate boost option in the synth ring. He doesn't know what it is,
so he enables it. Poof, his speech is now too fast to understand, and he does
not have enough of the keystrokes memorized to get back out.
NVDA key describer won't help, because he can't understand the speech. NVDA help
menu (quick reference / user guide) won't help, because he can't understand the
speech.
What's a newbe to do?
Well, much like he has been trained to expect with any other windows problem, he
might assume that a simple computer reboot will get him back to a sane state.
However that won't happen if save configuration on exit is set.
Basically, in that situation, unless he knows how to launch Narrator, he is
totally up the creek until he can get sighted help to reinstall NVDA.
Which experience might be bad enough to sour him on NVDA entirely.
And before you say that wouldn't happen: I have just described an actual support
case from which I had to save a user.

You call the command NVDA+ctrl+c to save settings, a "absolutely pointless
command", and ask why anyone should tell a user to remember it. But doesn't your
answer require a user to remember NVDA+ctrl+r? Actually, NVDA+ctrl+r twice fast?
What's worse, your method doesn't give the user in a bind, who can't remember
which command he needs, the option of restarting NVDA to recover.

Regarding your reaction to the word "permanent". As Gene said, that is accepted
usage when it comes to writing settings to disk, that goes back far longer than
NVDA.

As an aside, I will say that I find your lack of courtesy disturbing. I would
expect a list member, but most especially the list owner, to find a more
respectful way to publicly disagree with a member of the community.

Luke

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019, Nimer Jaber wrote:

> I am going to comment below on this saving settings thing, but I am shocked that this advice is being given to users. The actual hell?
>
> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 5:26 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
>       Unless you save the settings after you tell NVDA to use another voice, you can immediately revert to the voice that is in your saved
>       configuration.  Just use the command control NvDA key r.  Even if you just change the reading speed of the voice in your saved configuration and
>       want to set it back, you can use that command. 
>
> Had this message ended here, I wouldn't comment. 
>  
> And I would strongly urge you to set NVDA not to automatically save settings when it closes so that any changes you make that are temporary won't
> accidentally be saved.  I think that automatic saving of settings on exit is an extremely poor default setting.  If it is off, you can change and
> experiment with any number of settings and not worry that they will accidentally be saved.  automatic saving of settings on exit doesn't assure this. 
>
> What is so difficult about settings being inadvertently saved? You can always change them back to their defaults... You can change them again and exit and
> restart and they will be applied. In fact, you can change them and never worry about saving them because they will always be saved on exit.  
>       And what if you do something like reboot or shut down the computer.  NVDA will shut down and all temporary settings will now be permanent. 
>
> Nothing is permanent. Why scare users by saying this crap? Change the setting again, next time NVDA starts your settings will be still applied.  
>  
> You can manually save settings with the command control NVDA key c.  So, as I said earlier, its control NVDA key r to return to the saved
> configuration and control NVDA key c to save whatever you have changed permanently.
>
> Why remember that absolutely pointless command if your settings can always be saved when NVDA exits? Why have that extra step? Who cares if settings get
> inadvertently saved? You can unsave them. Before reboot you can revert them. After reboot you can change them back to whatever you want.  
>        
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Luke
> Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 6:14 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Couple questions about portable version of NVDA
>
> Hi Luke! Yes, it worked! NVDA+ control + S Then a couple arrow ups brought me to Espeak. And if I wanted to change back to vocalizer same thing but
> arrow down a couple. Quite handy. Thanks! The world needs more Luke’s.  a
>
> > On Jun 27, 2019, at 5:38 PM, Luke Davis <luke@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, supposedly less-good-looking other Luke.
> >
> > I know little and less about using vocalizer voices with NVDA, but I am reasonably sure that you can always switch back to eSpeak.
> >
> > It is possible to save configurations from within portable versions, so there is no need to generate a new portable copy just to change
> configurations, even synthesizer configurations.
> >
> > Launch your existing portable version, press NVDA+ctrl+s to open the synth settings dialog, press the up arrow a few times until you hear "eSpeak
> NG", and press enter.
> > If it works to switch you to eSpeak, as it should, and you like the result, press NVDA+ctrl+c to save the current configuration.
> >
> > Now, if Vocalizer does something to munge up this process, everything I just said may be wrong, but I'm not sure why it would.
> >
> > In any case, it's worth a try. At worst you'll be left with no speech, and will have to restart with ctrl+alt+n, or whatever it is that you do to
> start NVDA.
> >
> > Well okay, at worstist, if you do end up with no speech, and the "save configuration on exit" setting (or the "Make sure all your mistakes are
> permanent ones" setting, as I call it) under general is set, you may end up breaking your portable copy. So maybe it's best to make sure that setting
> isn't set first (NVDA+ctrl+g).
> >
> > Luke (a proud eSpeak British English Max user since 2008)
> >
> >
> >> On Thu, 27 Jun 2019, Luke wrote:
> >>
> >> Also, I know Espeek is more responsive and to put Espeek with my current saved settings and add ons on a portable version I would have to disable
> my current vocalizer voice first right? Last but not least I noticed there is another Luke on here so please don’t get confused as he is probably
> smarter, more informative and better looking than me LOL.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> Best,
>
> Nimer Jaber
>
> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
> addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
> please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
> correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
> by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
> criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
> attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine is
> up to you. Thanks.
>
> Registered Linux User 529141.
> http://counter.li.org/
>
> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
> and above, please click here:
> http://www.nvda-project.org
>
> You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.
>
> To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
> you, and have a great day!
>
>
>





--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine is
up to you. Thanks.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
and above, please click here:
http://www.nvda-project.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
you, and have a great day!


Re: Couple questions about portable version of NVDA

Luke Davis
 

Nimer

You seem to have two assumptions here with which I disagree:

1. That a new user understands enough about NVDA to know that it is possible to revert to factory settings if he gets himself in a settings related difficulty, and to have memorized *how* that is to be done.

2. That users, especially new users, always know what they are doing, or remember how to un-do the last configuration change they made. (Quoting you: "After reboot you can change them back to whatever you want.") Frankly, I would have thought your time on this list would have shown the fallacy of that one.

While you jumped all over Gene, I was the one who first mockingly called the setting "make all your mistakes permanent" in this thread, although of course Gene has been making this argument for a long time. But here's why I agree with him.

I will sight just one example.

I use speech at a reasonably high rate by default (eSpeak at 80, and speed it up or slow it down depending on what I'm doing). But I know many blind people, who can't understand super fast speech, especially those new to synthetic speech.
NVDA with rate boost enabled, at least in certain synths, can definitely produce such incomprehensible speech.

So let's say you have a new user, playing with NVDA keyboard commands, who stumbles on the rate boost option in the synth ring. He doesn't know what it is, so he enables it. Poof, his speech is now too fast to understand, and he does not have enough of the keystrokes memorized to get back out.
NVDA key describer won't help, because he can't understand the speech. NVDA help menu (quick reference / user guide) won't help, because he can't understand the speech.
What's a newbe to do?
Well, much like he has been trained to expect with any other windows problem, he might assume that a simple computer reboot will get him back to a sane state.
However that won't happen if save configuration on exit is set.
Basically, in that situation, unless he knows how to launch Narrator, he is totally up the creek until he can get sighted help to reinstall NVDA.
Which experience might be bad enough to sour him on NVDA entirely.
And before you say that wouldn't happen: I have just described an actual support case from which I had to save a user.

You call the command NVDA+ctrl+c to save settings, a "absolutely pointless command", and ask why anyone should tell a user to remember it. But doesn't your answer require a user to remember NVDA+ctrl+r? Actually, NVDA+ctrl+r twice fast?
What's worse, your method doesn't give the user in a bind, who can't remember which command he needs, the option of restarting NVDA to recover.

Regarding your reaction to the word "permanent". As Gene said, that is accepted usage when it comes to writing settings to disk, that goes back far longer than NVDA.

As an aside, I will say that I find your lack of courtesy disturbing. I would expect a list member, but most especially the list owner, to find a more respectful way to publicly disagree with a member of the community.

Luke

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019, Nimer Jaber wrote:

I am going to comment below on this saving settings thing, but I am shocked that this advice is being given to users. The actual hell?
On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 5:26 PM Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
Unless you save the settings after you tell NVDA to use another voice, you can immediately revert to the voice that is in your saved
configuration.  Just use the command control NvDA key r.  Even if you just change the reading speed of the voice in your saved configuration and
want to set it back, you can use that command. 
Had this message ended here, I wouldn't comment. 
 
And I would strongly urge you to set NVDA not to automatically save settings when it closes so that any changes you make that are temporary won't
accidentally be saved.  I think that automatic saving of settings on exit is an extremely poor default setting.  If it is off, you can change and
experiment with any number of settings and not worry that they will accidentally be saved.  automatic saving of settings on exit doesn't assure this. 
What is so difficult about settings being inadvertently saved? You can always change them back to their defaults... You can change them again and exit and
restart and they will be applied. In fact, you can change them and never worry about saving them because they will always be saved on exit.  
And what if you do something like reboot or shut down the computer.  NVDA will shut down and all temporary settings will now be permanent. 
Nothing is permanent. Why scare users by saying this crap? Change the setting again, next time NVDA starts your settings will be still applied.  
 
You can manually save settings with the command control NVDA key c.  So, as I said earlier, its control NVDA key r to return to the saved
configuration and control NVDA key c to save whatever you have changed permanently.
Why remember that absolutely pointless command if your settings can always be saved when NVDA exits? Why have that extra step? Who cares if settings get
inadvertently saved? You can unsave them. Before reboot you can revert them. After reboot you can change them back to whatever you want.  
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Luke
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 6:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Couple questions about portable version of NVDA
Hi Luke! Yes, it worked! NVDA+ control + S Then a couple arrow ups brought me to Espeak. And if I wanted to change back to vocalizer same thing but
arrow down a couple. Quite handy. Thanks! The world needs more Luke’s.  a

On Jun 27, 2019, at 5:38 PM, Luke Davis <luke@newanswertech.com> wrote:

Hi, supposedly less-good-looking other Luke.

I know little and less about using vocalizer voices with NVDA, but I am reasonably sure that you can always switch back to eSpeak.

It is possible to save configurations from within portable versions, so there is no need to generate a new portable copy just to change
configurations, even synthesizer configurations.

Launch your existing portable version, press NVDA+ctrl+s to open the synth settings dialog, press the up arrow a few times until you hear "eSpeak
NG", and press enter.
If it works to switch you to eSpeak, as it should, and you like the result, press NVDA+ctrl+c to save the current configuration.

Now, if Vocalizer does something to munge up this process, everything I just said may be wrong, but I'm not sure why it would.

In any case, it's worth a try. At worst you'll be left with no speech, and will have to restart with ctrl+alt+n, or whatever it is that you do to
start NVDA.

Well okay, at worstist, if you do end up with no speech, and the "save configuration on exit" setting (or the "Make sure all your mistakes are
permanent ones" setting, as I call it) under general is set, you may end up breaking your portable copy. So maybe it's best to make sure that setting
isn't set first (NVDA+ctrl+g).

Luke (a proud eSpeak British English Max user since 2008)


On Thu, 27 Jun 2019, Luke wrote:

Also, I know Espeek is more responsive and to put Espeek with my current saved settings and add ons on a portable version I would have to disable
my current vocalizer voice first right? Last but not least I noticed there is another Luke on here so please don’t get confused as he is probably
smarter, more informative and better looking than me LOL.


--
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Nimer Jaber
The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
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Re: ctrl alt N not opening NVDA

Larry Wang
 

This function is based on a shortcut on the desktop. Maybe the windows update deleted the shortcut. Reinstall NVDA may solve this


ctrl alt N not opening NVDA

Paul O'Rahilly
 

Hi

I am unable to open NVDA with ctrl alt N short cut

I can open it from the main menu.

Maybe it's a conincidence but this function disappeared after latest
windows updates.

Cheers, Paul


Re: Couple questions about portable version of NVDA

Gene
 

Also, I don't appreciate your insulting and hostile tone.  You said my use of the term "permanent" is scaring people with such crap.  I'm using an accepted term.  There is nothing wrong with that term and I often see it used in contexts where you save settings in a program.  While, it may be a valid point that for inexperienced users, I might have explained that permanent means not unchangeable but part of your saved settings, I didn't do so, but that hardly justifies your scathing characterization. 
 
That is all I have to say on this topic and I won't write further on it unless someone asks a specific question I believe needs addressing. 
 
Members will decide for themselves what they want to do but they wouldn't even have had the chance if I hadn't raised the points I did and if others didn't disagree.  And that kind of discussion is one of the purposes of the list.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Couple questions about portable version of NVDA

And here is another brief and related example.  At times, people purchase a synthesizer but, due to a license problem, they are placed in a message, using the new synthesizer, that it must be registered.  A lot of not particularly knowledgeable users would shut down the screen-reader or their computer, thus saving that synthesizer as the default. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Couple questions about portable version of NVDA

Window-eyes never saved settings permanently unless you told it to do so by using a save command.  Users could thus experiment with any settings they wanted and not worry that they would be saved.  As respected an instructor as Cathy Anne Murtha stated that his is an advantage of Window-eyes.  this was long before NVDA so it wasn't mentioned.
 
There is nothing wrong with the advice I gave. 
Here are a number of examples of why:
Suppose you are trying different voices and different reading speeds and perhaps other settings in various combinations.  If you shut down your computer without thinking about this either because you shut it down at night or you get an apply updates message from Windows or for some other reasons, all your experimental savings will be saved. 
 
Here is another example I just thought of.  You are using NVDA and your synthesizer, not NVDA, freezes.  If you use the shutdown and reboot command, does that mean that your temporary settings have been saved?  Maybe we will get an answer.  I suspect it does.  And if the synthesizer freezes, a lot of users wouldn't know how to determine this and would try to shut NvDA down and run it again or reboot the machine, thus shutting it down. 
 
Let's consider one more example.  Someone is trying a synthesizer for the first time and they aren't really knowledgeable users.  They tell NVDA to run the synthesizer.  It freezes.  The user doesn't know what to do and restarts the computer.  NVDA closes as a part of the shutdown.  The new synthesizer settings are saved.  The user doesn't know how to revert and is stuck with NVDA being unusable until he/she gets help.  All this would have been avoided if NVDA didn't save settings on exit.  The machine would reboot, and the old synthesizer would be used.  Save settings on exit is a very bad default.  If a knowledgeable user wants to use this setting, that's the knowledgeable users' decision.  It should not be the default setting.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Couple questions about portable version of NVDA

I am going to comment below on this saving settings thing, but I am shocked that this advice is being given to users. The actual hell?

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 5:26 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
Unless you save the settings after you tell NVDA to use another voice, you can immediately revert to the voice that is in your saved configuration.  Just use the command control NvDA key r.  Even if you just change the reading speed of the voice in your saved configuration and want to set it back, you can use that command. 
Had this message ended here, I wouldn't comment. 
 
And I would strongly urge you to set NVDA not to automatically save settings when it closes so that any changes you make that are temporary won't accidentally be saved.  I think that automatic saving of settings on exit is an extremely poor default setting.  If it is off, you can change and experiment with any number of settings and not worry that they will accidentally be saved.  automatic saving of settings on exit doesn't assure this. 
What is so difficult about settings being inadvertently saved? You can always change them back to their defaults... You can change them again and exit and restart and they will be applied. In fact, you can change them and never worry about saving them because they will always be saved on exit.  
And what if you do something like reboot or shut down the computer.  NVDA will shut down and all temporary settings will now be permanent. 
Nothing is permanent. Why scare users by saying this crap? Change the setting again, next time NVDA starts your settings will be still applied.  
 
You can manually save settings with the command control NVDA key c.  So, as I said earlier, its control NVDA key r to return to the saved configuration and control NVDA key c to save whatever you have changed permanently.
Why remember that absolutely pointless command if your settings can always be saved when NVDA exits? Why have that extra step? Who cares if settings get inadvertently saved? You can unsave them. Before reboot you can revert them. After reboot you can change them back to whatever you want.  
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Luke
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Couple questions about portable version of NVDA

Hi Luke! Yes, it worked! NVDA+ control + S Then a couple arrow ups brought me to Espeak. And if I wanted to change back to vocalizer same thing but arrow down a couple. Quite handy. Thanks! The world needs more Luke’s.  a

> On Jun 27, 2019, at 5:38 PM, Luke Davis <luke@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, supposedly less-good-looking other Luke.
>
> I know little and less about using vocalizer voices with NVDA, but I am reasonably sure that you can always switch back to eSpeak.
>
> It is possible to save configurations from within portable versions, so there is no need to generate a new portable copy just to change configurations, even synthesizer configurations.
>
> Launch your existing portable version, press NVDA+ctrl+s to open the synth settings dialog, press the up arrow a few times until you hear "eSpeak NG", and press enter.
> If it works to switch you to eSpeak, as it should, and you like the result, press NVDA+ctrl+c to save the current configuration.
>
> Now, if Vocalizer does something to munge up this process, everything I just said may be wrong, but I'm not sure why it would.
>
> In any case, it's worth a try. At worst you'll be left with no speech, and will have to restart with ctrl+alt+n, or whatever it is that you do to start NVDA.
>
> Well okay, at worstist, if you do end up with no speech, and the "save configuration on exit" setting (or the "Make sure all your mistakes are permanent ones" setting, as I call it) under general is set, you may end up breaking your portable copy. So maybe it's best to make sure that setting isn't set first (NVDA+ctrl+g).
>
> Luke (a proud eSpeak British English Max user since 2008)
>
>
>> On Thu, 27 Jun 2019, Luke wrote:
>>
>> Also, I know Espeek is more responsive and to put Espeek with my current saved settings and add ons on a portable version I would have to disable my current vocalizer voice first right? Last but not least I noticed there is another Luke on here so please don’t get confused as he is probably smarter, more informative and better looking than me LOL.
>
>
>




--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
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You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
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