Date   

[Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

David Russell
 

Hello NVDA,

The issue turned out to be turning screen reading mode on to fill in
the combo-boxes.
Hot keys were read to do this. I will not share them as they may be
unique to the webull.com program. Yay and thanks!

--
David C. Russell, Author
david.sonofhashem@gmail.com
PS27:14 Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen
thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD.


Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

 

A quick reminder to the membership that's reading this topic (or I should say, topics, which is the problem):  The group rules strongly discourage the intentional splitting of topics unless there is an actual spin-off conversation not related to the original one, which happens.

This topic was the original one, and there have been two split from it, one entitled, "Activating The Mouse CT," and the other, "Activating The Mouse CT2."  But all of these are about the same issues at hand.  I have been merging these in to the original topic on the archive, but I would really appreciate it if subsequent follow-ups are made to only the topic entitled, "Activating the Mouse with NVDA", moving forward to keep everything together for this particular tightly-related cluster of issues. It makes my life much easier, and the archive far easier to search for those who do so later.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


[Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

David Russell
 

Hello NVDA,

Gene, and all, the problem occurs with this application form, (see
sample in my previous post) that each question has the "choose one"
command. The combo-box may be embedded on the line that says, choose
one.
I was using page down and enter, or enter and page down to force the
combo-box to open on earlier application questions, such as address,
city, and state; the state to choose was in a combo-box.
I had to often repeat page down enter, or enter page down, to get it
to behave as wanted.

If I down arrow, as in the sample sent, other questions follow until
the end and one reads
Continue
I guess the question is more how to force a combo-box to open if it is
truly embedded.

Luke, I am reluctant to try the thing you suggested in NVDA tools, I
am unaware of that feature.

Sorry to hear that shift-control-f doesn't work, but will try Jackie's
suggestion, NVDA-enter on the line in question.
Cheers,

David
--
David C. Russell, Author
david.sonofhashem@gmail.com


Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

 

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 12:49 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I don't use, and have never used a number pad
-
Which, Sarah, makes you a member of a very tiny minority of computer users, sighted or blind.   Again, knowing when one is far from the mean in a bell curve distribution is a pretty vital skill.

One does not create documentation "for the masses" that covers each and every rare eventuality.  In fact, if one wants it to be as succinct as possible, one avoids doing precisely that.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

Chris Smart
 

Gosh, you should try a full-size keyboard sometime.




On 2021-04-09 12:49 p.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Actually it's not knowledge for me. I don't use, and have never used a number pad so I just assumed that they were known as slash and dash. Not devide and minus. Same with star and times. I never actually had a sighted person draw them out with wiki sticks for me to feel. Or, maybe I did when I was little but I don't remember.

--

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Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

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On 8 Apr 2021, at 15:56, Brian Vogel wrote:

Gene,

If someone wishes to write it this way, have at it.  But we're back to one of those things on which we're likely to never agree.  I believe that very common conventions, across many forms of documentation, for referring to number pad keys need to be known by "the average computer user."  It is no help to make documentation longer, and more complicated, assuming that this is not something commonly known, in my opinion.

Asterisk as the multiply operator and slash as the divide operator predate the PC, and have been in use in that way on many adding machines for decades now, particularly after the PC appeared.

Numpad multiply and numpad divide need to be understood under those terms, and I'd rather the rare person who doesn't already know them do what Mr. Russell did and ask.  There's nothing wrong with having a very occasional gap in common knowledge and asking to fill it in.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

Sarah k Alawami
 

Actually it's not knowledge for me. I don't use, and have never used a number pad so I just assumed that they were known as slash and dash. Not devide and minus. Same with star and times. I never actually had a sighted person draw them out with wiki sticks for me to feel. Or, maybe I did when I was little but I don't remember.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 8 Apr 2021, at 15:56, Brian Vogel wrote:

Gene,

If someone wishes to write it this way, have at it.  But we're back to one of those things on which we're likely to never agree.  I believe that very common conventions, across many forms of documentation, for referring to number pad keys need to be known by "the average computer user."  It is no help to make documentation longer, and more complicated, assuming that this is not something commonly known, in my opinion.

Asterisk as the multiply operator and slash as the divide operator predate the PC, and have been in use in that way on many adding machines for decades now, particularly after the PC appeared.

Numpad multiply and numpad divide need to be understood under those terms, and I'd rather the rare person who doesn't already know them do what Mr. Russell did and ask.  There's nothing wrong with having a very occasional gap in common knowledge and asking to fill it in.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

Gene
 

Are these combo boxes? You said that enter doesn't work on the line choose one. How are you moving? When you get to choose one, down arrow to see if there is a combo box or other structures. the line choose one could just be text and you work with what is below it.
Don't tab through the form. Look at everything by down arrowing. If you tab through unfamiliar forms, you may miss information or structures.

If you down arrow and don't see structures you can work with, we may or may not be able to help with that.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: David Russell
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2021 8:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Navigating With Mouse Keys CT

Hello NVDA,

Luke, Gene, Brian, Quentin, and all interested, thank you for your
input thus far.

As mentioned, the website in question is: www.webull.com.

You can only apply if a US citizen, or once your picture national ID
has been affixed. I could not read the application prior to my wife
adding my ID, nor can you.
That being said, here is the part of the application that is giving me trouble.
See below.
Investment Information
This information is collected to better understand your investment
profile. Your information is encrypted and securely transmitted.
FAQ
How to make a selection for investment experience?
Do you do a hard pull of my credit report or a soft pull?
Investment Profile
How much investment experience do you have?
Choose One
Note: Enter key does not work on the line "Choose one." Earlier, the
page down and enter were able to be utilized though with repeated
attempts. Back to application sample.
What's your overall investment objective?
Choose One
How long do you plan to invest your money?
Choose One
The global stock market is often volatile. If your entire investment
portfolio lost 10% of its value in a month during a market decline,
what would you do?
Choose One
Financial Information
How important is liquidity to you?
Choose One
What is your approximate yearly income?
Choose One
What is your approximate total net worth?
Choose One
What is the approximate total value of your cash and liquid investments?
Choose One
Continue

Each part of this app needs to be completed before one may continue.
Now you have knowledge of this entire issue. Thanks in advance; I will
read the daily summary over the weekend!
--
David C. Russell, Author
david.sonofhashem@gmail.com


[Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

David Russell
 

Hello NVDA,

Luke, Gene, Brian, Quentin, and all interested, thank you for your
input thus far.

As mentioned, the website in question is: www.webull.com.

You can only apply if a US citizen, or once your picture national ID
has been affixed. I could not read the application prior to my wife
adding my ID, nor can you.
That being said, here is the part of the application that is giving me trouble.
See below.
Investment Information
This information is collected to better understand your investment
profile. Your information is encrypted and securely transmitted.
FAQ
How to make a selection for investment experience?
Do you do a hard pull of my credit report or a soft pull?
Investment Profile
How much investment experience do you have?
Choose One
Note: Enter key does not work on the line "Choose one." Earlier, the
page down and enter were able to be utilized though with repeated
attempts. Back to application sample.
What's your overall investment objective?
Choose One
How long do you plan to invest your money?
Choose One
The global stock market is often volatile. If your entire investment
portfolio lost 10% of its value in a month during a market decline,
what would you do?
Choose One
Financial Information
How important is liquidity to you?
Choose One
What is your approximate yearly income?
Choose One
What is your approximate total net worth?
Choose One
What is the approximate total value of your cash and liquid investments?
Choose One
Continue

Each part of this app needs to be completed before one may continue.
Now you have knowledge of this entire issue. Thanks in advance; I will
read the daily summary over the weekend!
--
David C. Russell, Author
david.sonofhashem@gmail.com


Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

Gene
 

When I'm on a web page and I need to use something other than enter or space bar to try to get something to work, I try left click and activate object. If one doesn't work, the other may. Whatever the intent, you need to know both and know that one may work where the other doesn't.

Also, unless you know a command works in both layouts, you need to specify which keyboard layout you are giving a command for.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Davis
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2021 5:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Mostly designed for use with object navigation (to get you where regular navigation keys like the arrows and tab can't get to), I must confess I haven't
looked at the technicalities of exactly how the behaviour differs, but great that it works as a solution here :)
Well, we won't know that until the OP tries it.

I still want him to test COM reg fix, and shift+enter, space, etc. as well.

Luke


Re: Find On Page

Rui Fontes
 

By the way, I normally read small PDF files in MS Edge...

NVDA+Control+F do not work on those files...


Rui Fontes


Às 04:15 de 09/04/2021, Luke Davis escreveu:

Hi Glenn, it's been quite a long time.

Yes, it takes you directly to the result, no dialog box.

As others have said, NVDA+control+f is what you want here.

However, since it seems you may have tried that (you said Control+insert+f, but that's the same thing if you have your insert key set as the NVDA key), some debugging steps:

First, do you have "enable browse mode on page load" checked, in the browse mode settings? You can reach the browse mode settings by pressing NVDA+control+b, then tabbing to the option.
If you don't, please check it, then press enter, and again try to do a search with NVDA+control+f.

Can you tell us what browser you are using?

Can you please give an example of a page you go to (so we can go there), and a term you search for to which you expect to be taken but aren't (so we can search for it)?

Luke


On Thu, 8 Apr 2021, Glenn / Lenny wrote:

I use control + F to find something on a web page or document with Jaws just fine, but that never works with NVDA.
I've tried insert + control F too and it does not work.
It seems to act as though it did the search, but it does not place me on the page at what I searched for.
In fact, this has never worked for me, I'm sure even before I ever installed any addons.
I just assumed over the years that maybe NVDA does not do this.
When it does work for someone, does it actually move the reading cursor to the spot, or does it say it found something and leave a dialog box open?
I don't know if NVDA has done that before, or if it was something else, but I'm expecting the reading cursor to go to the first instance of my search, as
Jaws does.



Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

Luke Davis
 

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Mostly designed for use with object navigation (to get you where regular navigation keys like the arrows and tab can't get to), I must confess I haven't
looked at the technicalities of exactly how the behaviour differs, but great that it works as a solution here :)
Well, we won't know that until the OP tries it.

I still want him to test COM reg fix, and shift+enter, space, etc. as well.

Luke


Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

Quentin Christensen
 

Just for completeness, here is the relevant User Guide section: https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/documentation/userGuide.html#ObjectNavigation

The keystroke to activate current navigator object is NVDA+numpad enter in desktop keyboard layout and NVDA+enter in laptop layout.

Mostly designed for use with object navigation (to get you where regular navigation keys like the arrows and tab can't get to), I must confess I haven't looked at the technicalities of exactly how the behaviour differs, but great that it works as a solution here :)

Quentin.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 6:12 PM Luke Davis <luke@...> wrote:
Ah. I so rarely use that layout that I sometimes forget its eccentricities.

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021, Jackie wrote:

> Luke, it's the "activate navigator object" key. Using the laptop
> layout, it's NVDA+enter.







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

Luke Davis
 

Ah. I so rarely use that layout that I sometimes forget its eccentricities.

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021, Jackie wrote:

Luke, it's the "activate navigator object" key. Using the laptop
layout, it's NVDA+enter.


Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

Jackie
 

Luke, it's the "activate navigator object" key. Using the laptop
layout, it's NVDA+enter.

On 4/8/21, Luke Davis <luke@newanswertech.com> wrote:
On Thu, 8 Apr 2021, Jackie wrote:

NVDA+enter key seems to work quite well, David.
Really? Is that documented somewhere? Now, NVDA+numpad enter, I can
understand,
but the regular one?
Where does that work that just enter might not?

I don't doubt you, I've just never heard of it, and keyboard help has
nothing on
it.

Luke





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Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

Luke Davis
 

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021, Jackie wrote:

NVDA+enter key seems to work quite well, David.
Really? Is that documented somewhere? Now, NVDA+numpad enter, I can understand, but the regular one?
Where does that work that just enter might not?

I don't doubt you, I've just never heard of it, and keyboard help has nothing on it.

Luke


Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

Jackie
 

NVDA+enter key seems to work quite well, David.

On 4/8/21, David Russell <david.sonofhashem@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi NVDA,

I share the following link with you in the hope it may be helpful
alongside the NVDA command key list. I will try these at the brokerage
site, webull.com.
This site caters mostly to US residents.

How to Move the Mouse Cursor with the Keyboard in Windows
https://www.computerhope.com › ... › Keyboard Help
About this Result
Using keyboard shortcut — How to enable/disable Mouse Keys. Using
keyboard shortcut; In Windows 10; In Windows 8; In Windows 7, Vista,
or XP.

Thank you for your time and input: Luke, Brian, Gene.


David Russell





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Re: Find On Page

 

Hi,

Don’t worry – at least it gave us a chance to go deeper this time.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2021 8:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Find On Page

 

My apologies to Gene, Joseph, and Luke.  I read Bob's question, started my reply, walked away, and never reloaded to check to see what might have come between when I walked away and got back.  I've covered territory already covered previously.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Re: Find On Page

 

Hi,

I guess I need to go deeper into the layered design I mentioned in my last reply (the best person to explain the browser side of things is Marco Zehe from Mozilla Foundation):

To let NVDA navigate a website as though you are reading a document, NVDA employs what’s called a “tree interceptor”. A tree interceptor is a collection of elements that act like one large text area. Because a tree interceptor is a collection of elements and texts coming from these, it can include hundreds of different controls of varying roles (straight text, form fields, links, frames, web apps, video players, you name it). Using a tree to describe a complex control such as a web document is quite an interesting approach – after all, graphical user interface elements are organized like a tree or branches, with web documents consisting of a collection of smaller elements (and this is how HTML and ARIA coding is actually rendered on screen).

But tree interceptors are not enough. NVDA relies on three more materials to create a completely functioning browse mode implementation: virtual buffers, accessibility API’s, and a cursor manager (there are other elements involved, but these three are essential). Virtual buffers create building blocks for documents. Accessibility API’s and standards such as IAccessible and ARIA (Accessible Rich Internet Applications) enhance the “look and feel” of a browse mode document. Finally, cursor managers provide commands to move around the just created browse mode document.

The steps NVDA takes when creating a browse mode document are as follows:

  1. You start a web browser. NVDA can then load appropriate support modules based on the browser you are using.
  2. You open a new website.
  3. When NVDA detects that a new page is open, NVDA will either use API’s provided by the web browser to gather information about the just opened document (typically UIA browse mode implementations in Chromium Edge) or ask a DLL that ships with NVDA to gather info on the fly (Firefox is a good example of this).
  4. Whatever method is chosen, NVDA will read the document from top to bottom, constructing NVDA objects to represent elements found in the web document. At the same time, texts coming from these web elements are gathered into a single browse mode document (tree interceptor in some cases) to facilitate navigation, first letter commands, NVDA find, elements list and a whole host of features.

 

As for NVDA find command, NVDA will search text of the browse mode document (stored internally) and will place the cursor at the next occurrence of the searched term.

P.S. Marco, if you are here, may I ask if you can shed some light on browse mode/tree interceptor internals? I can speak of what NVDA does at the high level.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2021 8:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Find On Page

 

Bob,

          Before I start even trying to explain this, it would be helpful to know what browser or browsers you and Glenn are using and where either one of these finds is not working.

           I am going to try to make the distinction between a browser find and a screen reader find (and it doesn't matter whether it's JAWS or NVDA) as simple as I can.  I can assure you that I will be omitting scads of "under the hood" detail that someone far more knowledgeable about both browser internals and NVDA internals can delve in to if they so choose.

            A browser find focuses on what can be seen on a page that's a part of the page text.  That is generally limited to actual text as well as text used for click-through links and labels.  But text on controls, like buttons, checkboxes, etc., will very often not be found using a browser find.  Much of this depends on how sloppy the page coders have been about how certain controls are written and what's exposed to a browser find versus a screen reader find.  I also believe that a browser find does not examine the virtual cursor used by the screen reader while a screen reader find does just that.

             As a result, there can be differences in not only what can be found by either one, but exactly where the screen reader focus is after each is done.

             I tend to favor the screen reader find when someone's using a screen reader simply because it tends to find certain things that a browser find doesn't, and you more often have focus on the thing just found, consistently, with a screen reader find.

             I'm actually hoping someone with way more "under the hood" knowledge will chime in and probably bore some of us silly getting into the actual differences between how a browser find and screen reader find works and can explain the discrepancies not only in what each can find but in where focus lies after each.  I have never been able to come up with any precise way of describing what's different between the two.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Re: Speaking of Paragraph markers and special symbols in Microsoft Word.

Quentin Christensen
 

At the appropriate symbol / punctuation level, NVDA will read most punctuation.  Press NVDA+P to change punctuation level.  It does seem to work exactly the same in Word regardless of how show / hide non-printable characters / formatting symbols is set.  The main thing I noticed was that NVDA doesn't distinguish between a paragraph break (enter) and shift+enter, calling both simply "Carriage return".

If you can articulate what would be useful to have read which isn't now, I'd encourage you to create an issue on our tracker at: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 10:50 AM Deenadayalan Moodley <deenadayalan.moodley@...> wrote:

Hi all,

 

I am working on a rather detailed proofing of various documents and require the non-printable symbols to be spoken.  I have enabled this in Microsoft Word by <ctrl+shift+*> and ensure that the display options are checked in the options dialog.

 

I find that NVDA will not speak the paragraph markers or even the space markers.

 

I looked at the punctuation and symbols dialog and enabled the paragraph mark to always be sent to the speech synthesizer but, it will not speak.  Has anyone come across this issue and found a solution around it?

 

I tested with JFW and it is spoken and as I use NVDA as my primary screen reader, I would prefer to get this working instead having to switch screen readers just for this purpose.

 

Any ideas?Thanks.

 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: Find On Page

 

My apologies to Gene, Joseph, and Luke.  I read Bob's question, started my reply, walked away, and never reloaded to check to see what might have come between when I walked away and got back.  I've covered territory already covered previously.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 

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