Date   

Re: NVDA and outlook, discussion about columns in message list

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Tony,

 

You are right.  If you do control up and down with JAWS, it says the word Selected, so it’s actually highlighting the messages as you move over them.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Malykh
Sent: 17 February 2019 22:27
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and outlook, discussion about columns in message list

 

Hi Brian,

So it looks like my ignorance was justified to some extent. I was so sure that threaded view was unusable because I did my own research on the Internet and didn't find any information about Control+Up/Down arrows. I actually don't remember finding any article about using Outlook with NVDA. This is a stark contrast with Thunderbird - NVAcces has an excellent tutorial on using Thunderbird with NVDA:

http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/accessible%20email%20client%20mozilla%20thunderbird.html

This tutorial also mentions something like "Thunderbird is the most accessible email client to work with NVDA". I don't mean to start email client war, I'm just saying that, because I was primed by this tutorial. And there is no alternative tutorial for NVDA+Outlook - or is there?

The only thing I found is an official accessibility guide for Outlook from Microsoft:

https://support.office.com/en-us/article/keyboard-shortcuts-for-navigating-mail-in-outlook-ca79fe45-80e5-47dd-b7a0-841d4711ed53

That mentiones Control+Up/Down shortcuts, but the function that they perform is called: "Select multiple non-adjacent messages". Who would've thought.

Anyway, it seems to me that there is some demand for a good tutorial on how to use NVDA with Outlook. Even though I still personally prefer Thunderbird at this point, it is always a good idea to have an alternative. Especially, it seems to me that Thunderbird development slows down these days (Mozilla no longer supports them and they are asking for donations more and more aggressively), and a couple of years down the road we might have to switch to Outlook as the only viable option.

--Tony

 

 

On 2/16/2019 1:11 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Tony,

           You're quite welcome.   To be perfectly honest, your reaction to Outlook conversation view is far from the only one that I've seen expressing the same sentiments.  Every time I see it my first desire is to reach out and throttle the person making it.

           Outlook is an incredibly mature product, and probably is the best-supported by screen readers in general.  Most of the time issues are not with Outlook, but with ignorance about how to use it (whether that's getting it to do something you want it to do or stop doing something you don't want it to do).  I didn't even know about the CTRL+Arrow keys and discovered it in response to the questions raised here.  I generally figure that, when it comes to Windows based programs of the age and stature that Outlook has achieved, that there's almost always some keystroke sequence to do virtually anything whether I happen to know what it is or not.  I experimented to find this one, and I also experimented to discover the two-level expansion.  I found that the latter is well documented after having discovered it myself.

             I get, more than you might think, the kind of frustration you had expressed.  But what my years "in the biz" have taught me is that there's generally a solution I don't know about when it seems obvious that a lot of people other than myself would probably be screaming if there weren't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Golden Cursor question

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

 

I don’t really understand what you’re saying here in the context of JAWS.  Are you saying that JAWS can’t do this?  I’d beg to differ, although you’d have to get the Hotspot Clicker script that The Snowman has written, then you could do this just as easily.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 17 February 2019 20:25
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 02:58 PM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

Well, it can come in really, really handy for being able to activate unlabeled controls, repeatedly, in programs one might not otherwise be able to access.

I've helped someone who really needed to be able to use a program that was, for all intents and purpose, completely inaccessible get through it for their intended purposes just because they could do the equivalent of "point and click" on the controls once we'd worked together to locate them on a fully maximized window for that program.  Admittedly, my sight was necessary for the setup phase, but it made it possible to use this antique thing they had to be able to use as they only needed to be able to activate two controls (and I don't recall the details at this point).

There are different kinds of accessibility, and while this certainly isn't complete in any meaningful sense it certainly is functional within the context.  I've recommended programs that are not 100% accessible but where the function of focus is because it's only that function I intend the client to use it for, and the program is particularly good at it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Just testing

 

What happened, actually, is that I'm used to, from time to time, check my e-mail through the web and see what's going on, precisely to take something that I could miss off the spam folder.
I'm also used to delete all the emails in my trash folder, which I don't remind how it's called in English, but well...
Yesterday I was deleting emails from there and accidentally, after selecting all messages, I ended up clicking in the "mark as spam" option instead of "delete" or something like that.
Well along with the other emails, there was emails that I had sent, so let's say I marked myself as a spammer. Lol
I need to be more careful and I will do, next time.


Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter

Em 18/02/2019 05:06, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io escreveu:

A lot of us get this from time to time. I have set up an iImap account so I can see the spam folder on my email providers servers. I then move spam to inbox when its appropriate and that then gets delivered to my pop3 service with the message sorting rules for my offline folders.
It seems to happen due to the way isps tend to  give scores to emails with regard to number coming from a source, sub line wording and repetition and listed on black list type servers sending the mail. You can often see the scores in the headers.
I would have thought they could avoid it by  not checking mail from a list, but I guess spammers would then spoof the headers to get to the final recipient. Sigh.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "marcio via Groups.Io" <marcinhorj21@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Just testing


Hi, the reason for this test is, I received an email just now telling me
that one my emails was marked as spam and I should try to subscribe
again after 7 days.
As it clearly was a mistake, I'm sending to the lists that I'm into test
emails to see if I keep on there.

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter <https://twitter.com/firirinfonfon>

Em 17/02/2019 16:25, marcio via Groups.Io escreveu:

-- 

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter <https://twitter.com/firirinfonfon>














Re: Golden Cursor question

Steve Nutt
 

Jean,

 

I think the whole Golden Cursor thing should be in NVDA to be honest.  The ability to move the mouse using the keyboard has been in screen readers, since the invention of Windows.

 

Supernova has it, System Access has it, JAWS has it, Window-Eyes was best at it, and so on.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 20:08
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

The search feature should, I think, be in NVDA, not in the Golden Cursor. This is important funcionality and is too important to depend on a user downloading an add-on to have it available.

 

Gene 

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:58 PM

Subject: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

 

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

 

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

 

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

 

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

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Re: Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

Steve Nutt
 

I still don’t like it, however much you try to justify dictionary hacks.  Eventually you exclude loads of words, then it becomes more work.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 20:05
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

But if, for some reason, you hear a lot of graphics announced and you can't turn off graphic announcements in the settings, you may save yourself a good deal of annoyance.  and it isn't much work in general.  Think about when the last two or three times were that you heard the word graphic other than in this thread or when your screen-reader announced an actual graphic. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:54 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

That’s more hard work though, as well as concentrating on the text itself for mistakes, I’d say.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 19:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

By context a lot of the time.  if not, they will know a word is missing because what is being said won't make sense.  At that point, you can go back and read the word by letter.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:12 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

But how would they know the word was missing, if the synth didn’t utter anything?

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 19:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

Yes, it would be skipped.  Most people wouldn't come across the word often in documents and they have to remember that they won't hear it.  They can read letter by letter at the missing word location to verify that it is that word if they wish.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 12:53 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

Hi Jean,

 

What happens then if you come across the word graphic in a document?  Does it just get missed out?  That would make it awkward for proofing.  I don’t like using dictionaries as a cludge if I’m honest.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 16 February 2019 13:24
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

If this setting isn't available in preferences, and I am not aware of a do not announce graphics setting, you may be able to stop graphic from being announced using the speech dictionary.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:46 AM

Subject: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

To all members
Does NVDA has feature to ignore graphic while navigating web page, and if it has, now to enable it?
A friend asked me this, and he shared him thought that sometimes he doesn't want to see graphics in article he reading, and he wonder if we could add this to NVDA if it doesn't exist. I can also create a tiket for this if noone did before.
Any help would be appreciated.
Cuong

----------------
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Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

 

What makes Microsoft so good, is you can search for any setting.  JAWS has the same functionality, and I’d like to see it in NVDA, as I have said before.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 17 February 2019 20:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Another thing, and it's not necessarily easy to do, is make settings structures have multiple routes to get to the settings one is actually looking for.

I actually think that Microsoft has done an admirable, if not perfect, job of doing that with the Windows 10 settings.  One can start digging in from any of several different likely ports of entry and follow a different route somewhat intuitively (somewhat) connected to how one started looking in the first place.

I think this is particularly necessary for any given setting that may relate to several seemingly unrelated feature sets but where each depends on that setting in some way.

A good example of the Windows 10 Settings where they did NOT succeed in this is the Use my sign-in info to automatically finish setting up my device and reopen my apps after an update or restart.  To me, even based upon the wording for the toggle itself, this should be a part of the Update & Security settings, but it isn't.  It's under Accounts, Sign-In options pane and I know of no way to get to it if you start out in Update & Security settings.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Golden Cursor question

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Joseph,

 

Well I only asked out of interest.  Because I use quite a bit of custom software that doesn’t lend itself to keyboard interface at all, this would be a useful addition.  The JAWS cursor, as I say, allows you to plunk the mouse down wherever you find a string of text.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 17 February 2019 20:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

You mean an extension of NVDA find command to operate sort of everywhere? Not that I know of at the moment, but might be something that can be useful for version 4.0 (to be developed by someone, not me, as I’m the current guardian of that add-on and intend to pass it onto someone once Python 3 transition takes place).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 11:58 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

 

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

 

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

 

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

 

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

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Re: Question on Chrome, Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

After reading the query though, it was obvious to me that it was asking about getting rid of clutter, some of which was graphical, but much was just clusters of links, maybe commercials or other sundry bits of content the page designer is anxious to show the user!
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <@britechguy>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 4:14 AM
Subject: Re: Question on Chrome, Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?


On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 10:28 PM, Gene wrote:


But there may be times when people want to hear the page as it is when
reading. Perhaps the person wants to make sure that no related content
links are missed
Which has next to nothing in regard to answering the question asked at the outset of this topic.

I presume that it was a spin-off of the other one, so I am more than willing to limit my response to the scope set by the original request here.

Not only that, but in the case of what I offered, "You have been warned," definitely applies. If that's not what's wanted, then don't go that route.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.*

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back


Re: Question on Chrome, Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

What would be nice is to be able to cut and paste the uncluttered text so one can keep it in a normal text file format without having to edit out all the like this, picture stuff and the like afterwards.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Otten" <maryotten@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 3:41 AM
Subject: Re: Question on Chrome, Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?


I'm not sure what you were getting at here, Gene. If you want to hear
all the stuff on the page, the screen reader will do what you want. But
for most of us who want to read an article, we don't want to hear all
that junk. So reader mode is a great thing, and it can be invoked or
not, as it is part of the browser. So again, I am not sure what you are
referring to here.


Mary

On 2/17/2019 7:28 PM, Gene wrote:
But there may be times when people want to hear the page as it is when
reading. Perhaps the person wants to make sure that no related
content links are missed. Perhaps for other reasons I haven't thought
of. Just as the screen-reader has lots of settings for announcing or
not announcing information such as headings and links, it is
consistent with that design philosophy to also cause graphics to be
announced or not. The screen-reader shouldn't, by omission, steer the
user toward using a specific reading mode.
I haven't used recent versions of NVDA so I don't know if an announce
graphics has been added in document presentation settings But it
should be.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Laurie Mehta via Groups.Io
<mailto:lauriemehta=yahoo.com@groups.io>
*Sent:* Sunday, February 17, 2019 6:06 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Question on Chrome, Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while
navigating web pages using NVDA?

Hi,
I use reader view in Firefox but did not know that chrome has a reader
view mode. I do not want to use chrome's read aloud feature, but could
you tell me how to use reader view in chrome?
Thanks!
-LM

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 2/17/19, Brian Vogel <@britechguy
<mailto:@britechguy>> wrote:

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages
using NVDA?
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, February 17, 2019, 3:53 PM

This strikes me as something that
can be taken care of outside the screen reader, rather than
by the screen reader.

Firefox and Chrome both have reader modes and support the
Read Aloud add-on/extension. I have used the latter
extensively with several of my clients since it distills
webpages to their narrative text, getting rid of embedded
links, etc. It makes it possible to go through a Wikipedia
page without losing your mind, for instance.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home,
64-Bit, Version 1809,
Build 17763
A great deal of
intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for
illusion is deep.
~ Saul
Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back









Re: Golden Cursor question

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

In a way this feeds into the discussion about the writing of manuals and explaining concepts to the average user. Its no good having a feature if you cannot make it understandable.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "David Moore" <jesusloves1966@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question


Amen!
You sure cannot do that much with the mouse with JAWS.
I said that by the way about the Golden Cursor doing much more than the mouse feature in JAWS, and it is just a fact if one would read the documentation for Golden Cursor!
David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 3:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 02:58 PM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.
Well, it can come in really, really handy for being able to activate unlabeled controls, repeatedly, in programs one might not otherwise be able to access.

I've helped someone who really needed to be able to use a program that was, for all intents and purpose, completely inaccessible get through it for their intended purposes just because they could do the equivalent of "point and click" on the controls once we'd worked together to locate them on a fully maximized window for that program. Admittedly, my sight was necessary for the setup phase, but it made it possible to use this antique thing they had to be able to use as they only needed to be able to activate two controls (and I don't recall the details at this point).

There are different kinds of accessibility, and while this certainly isn't complete in any meaningful sense it certainly is functional within the context. I've recommended programs that are not 100% accessible but where the function of focus is because it's only that function I intend the client to use it for, and the program is particularly good at it.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.
~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back


Re: Just testing

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

A lot of us get this from time to time. I have set up an iImap account so I can see the spam folder on my email providers servers. I then move spam to inbox when its appropriate and that then gets delivered to my pop3 service with the message sorting rules for my offline folders.
It seems to happen due to the way isps tend to give scores to emails with regard to number coming from a source, sub line wording and repetition and listed on black list type servers sending the mail. You can often see the scores in the headers.
I would have thought they could avoid it by not checking mail from a list, but I guess spammers would then spoof the headers to get to the final recipient. Sigh.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "marcio via Groups.Io" <marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Just testing


Hi, the reason for this test is, I received an email just now telling me
that one my emails was marked as spam and I should try to subscribe
again after 7 days.
As it clearly was a mistake, I'm sending to the lists that I'm into test
emails to see if I keep on there.

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter <https://twitter.com/firirinfonfon>

Em 17/02/2019 16:25, marcio via Groups.Io escreveu:

--

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter <https://twitter.com/firirinfonfon>




Re: FW: Billboards and adverts

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Did you mean to post this here?
Brian

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-----


Re: Reading printed landscape sheet

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Often its the formatting that gets mangled when you do this I find.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 11:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading printed landscape sheet


Hi Farhan,

Any printed sheet would need to be run through an OCR program to convert
the text on the paper to something NVDA can read. The text is usually
imaged with a scanner, though can be done with a camera as well. Most OCR
programs can detect text in landscape or portrait mode so if you already
have a scanner etc, that shouldn't be an issue.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 5:46 PM farhan israk <fahim.net.2014@...>
wrote:

I have a printed sheet which printed in landscape mode. How to read it?


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Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Don't get me started on icons....
As somebody who struggles with domestic appliances with little pictures instead of words that even the sighted do not understand, I know what you are trying to say, but its not a good analogy!

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <@britechguy>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION


On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 02:12 PM, Steve Nutt wrote:


Writing menus, is the same in a way, as writing documentation, the menus
need to be intuitive at the outset, or people won’t find or use your
feature set.
Now I'll play contrarian, at least in part. I agree that pretty much all of the "common" and/or "commonly tweaked" settings need to be front and center and named in such a way that the average user in your target demographic will apprehend their meaning upon encountering them. That part is not rocket science.

At the same time, any complex piece of software, and screen readers are incredibly complex pieces of software, it is impossible for a great deal of what's in settings to be intuitive to the average user. If you have something that's even vaguely approachable in that way, you generally have something that's got a lot of defaults that cannot be tweaked and that many special-needs users (and I mean for specific computing niches and vocational niches - which use software over which the screen reader will be overlaid that's out of the ordinary) end up stuck.

For something like a screen reader to be exquisitely configurable, there will be huge swaths of the total settings structure that will not, in any way, be immediately obvious not only to the average user, but even to the quite sophisticated user. Most of the sorts of tweaks for very focused refinement in a given setting require either someone intimately familiar with things "deep under the hood" in the software or willing to become so in the zones they need to change.

A good analogy would be expecting your average driver to be able to understand and actually maintain every aspect of their cars. That age passed a very, very long time ago. But virtually any driver can get in any car and get from point A to point B based on the well-known commonalities in the technology. And that's even if you get into a vehicle with things labeled in an entirely different language (which in the age of icons is increasingly rare, too).

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.*

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back


Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I think you miss what I mean a little. They need to write the manual but somebody needs to translate them into the language the people use who use software, which is not quite what Programmers use themselves.
I've seen it so often in help files etc all over the place. Of course in some cases it is complex and has to be, but for most of the time the stuff the customer needs to know is best kept pretty simple. if it is very hard to comprehend, nobody will use it and the hard work done in implementing it has been in vain. Object navigation is a little like this I think.
It means that a user needs to understand the relationship of objects on a screen and the layered nature of them, ie parents and children and all of that.

It may well all be like that under the hood as they say, but the customer facing part needs to be kept as simple as possible for the majority of use cases.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <@joslee>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION


Hi,
To me, saying that programmers should not write manuals robs them of a valuable educational opportunity to communicate (I am a programmer and do write documentation).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:40 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

Yes this is exactly why programmers should not write manuals. They tend to adopt words and phrases like Carat and Gesture as shorthand but nobody out in the world has the slightest idea of what they mean.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <@britechguy>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION


On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 06:54 AM, Ian Westerland wrote:


Another way around the issue might be to define what the word means in
context so "gesture" could be used within the contextual definition. Just
a thought.
Ian,

Just because I have been in this situation more than once before, I have to
tell you that this idea will either not work at all or not work well.

People do not tend to read documentation cover to cover nor in order, and
that actually makes perfect sense. We seek out sections either via the
index, table of contents, or searching that appear to relate directly to the
issue we're trying to solve or the thing we're trying to learn about.

Gesture is an utterly unclear and inappropriate term for a command. Others
have stated exactly why, especially for your typical reader of English. If
one has to explain the basic concept of command then something's very, very
wrong with the terminology being used and you can be sure that many people
will miss the explanation for the reason I noted above.

The ability to directly apprehend meaning, with the bare minimum of
additional explanation, is critical in technical documentation. Mind you,
there are obviously times when "the bare minimum" will be far from bare or
minimal, but this isn't one of those.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for
illusion is deep.*

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back


Re: Using Office Products with UIA

Gene
 

How many systems did you try this on?  You have no basis to assume UIA is the problem.  One person, telling you about a problem they have means nothing.  the person may be making errors, or there may be some other problem.  I have never, on all the lists I'm on, in all the time since Windows 7 and Windows 10- have been out, heard the complaint you are making, that there is a general behavior that causes incorrect items to be opened. 
 
Try the following:
Open the start menu.
Type date and time
and wait a moment.
Read the current line.  Is it what you are looking for?  If so, press enter.
If not, down arrow until you find what you want.  Press enter.
 
Usually, in Windows 7, when you are looking for something and you know what you are looking for, opening Control Panel is unnecessary. 
 
And we don't know if Control Panel is set up properly on your machine to work as you expect with first letter navigation.
 
Try the procedure I gave and see what happens.  We don't know why you are having the problem.  Turning off a part of Windows isn't the proper way to find out what the problem is and it won't solve it if it is caused by something else such as not having Control panel set properly to do what you want.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: zahra
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA

no, i am sure that i never experienced such problems on xp.
even someone with windows ten, asked me that i want to open something
and when i opened my desire, i observed openning another item.
for example: when openning skype, she observes that firefox opens for her!
if i turn off uia, can i use windows 7 without any slowness or
openning undesired item?
yes, i tested openning items of control panel, when i use first letter
of my desired item, sometimes i can easily open anything that i wish
and sometimes i recieved undesired behaviour like the time which i
want to open date and time which i explaned.

On 2/17/19, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> Your second problem is not a general probem.  you are approaching Windows 7
> with a bias against it that it can't be as good as XP, probably
> significantly inferior so you assume that every problem is the fault of
> Windows 7.  It could be a problem with the specific system being used.  I
> explained how to stop the slower echo when you move through a list of files.
>  Windows 7 wouldn't be as popular as it is among blind users if it had a lot
> of problems.  it is a mistake to disable a feature to avoid certain problems
> when the results will be unknown other problems, without properly evaluating
> Windows 7 and asking here about problems you encounter.  If you really
> evaluate Windows 7 and ask about problems here, you may still want to turn
> off UIA, but you have no basis at this time to have an informed opinion.
> Did you try opening time and date more than once?  One malfunction, if that
> is what it was, doesn't tell us anything.  Odd behaviors happen from time to
> time.  If it happened in XP, you wouldn't conclude anything because you
> aren't biased against it.
>
> \Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: zahra
> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 12:35 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA
>
>
> hi gene.
> yes, one of the problems is slowness of nvda in file explorer and i
> wish that when i navigate between items, i recieve feedback without
> any pause!
> but i heard from someone that the problems of newer windows versions
> are because of uia and i decided to turn it off completely to use
> windows 7 like windows xp without any slowness!
> but slowness was not only problem for me.
> when i wanted to open one item in control panel, i observed openning
> undesired item.
> for example: i went to the control panel to set the clock or calendar
> of my system.
> i pressed d and nvda told: date and time.
> when i pressed enter to open it, nvda told action center security
> instead of date and times and its options.
> i dont have any of these issues on xp and got this result that msaa is
> the best version of accessibility and made me hating uia.
>
> On 2/16/19, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
>> Before you pursue the matter further, what benefit do you think you will
>> get?  And you don't know what benefits you will lose.  I haven't seen any
>> disadvantages that amount to anything in Windows 7.  I get a little
>> slower
>> echoing of titles when I move up or down in the files list in Windows
>> Explorer or the desktop.  My solution is to hold control as I move.  When
>> I
>> get to something I want to open, I release control, down arrow once, up
>> arrow once to the item, then press enter.  Holding control while moving
>> keeps files from being selected as you move to them.  That solves the
>> slow
>> echo problem.
>>
>> If you want to turn it off because you have heard this or that complaint,
>> such complaints may not be general problems.  you shouldn't have
>> preconceptions based on such poor, perhaps meaningless, in terms of
>> generalization, evidence.  And, as I said, you don't know what benefits
>> you
>> may not get by turning it off.
>>
>> Don't let your XP bias lead you toward jumping to conclucions about
>> Windows
>> 7.  It is a popular version of Windows among blind users.
>>
>> Gene
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: zahra
>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 11:54 PM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA
>>
>>
>> hi.
>> thanks for replying me.
>> how can i modify configuration file?
>> i wish to turn off uia in windows 7 if one day i can access a system
>> with windows 7 and just use msaa on windows 7 like windows xp!
>> i someday tried windows 7 and i was unsatisfied of uia and wish to
>> have msaa forever.
>>
>> On 2/16/19, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> You can sort of do this (modifying the configuration file), though I
>>> can't
>>> guarantee if that will resolve all sorts of problems you may encounter
>>> as
>>> a
>>> result. For instance, although certain Windows Explorer features may
>>> become
>>> more "usable", it may not solve some problems you might be having.
>>> Also, on a personal note, I wouldn't really count on going back to
>>> Windows
>>> XP days, or for that matter, use that as a justification for turning off
>>> an
>>> accessibility API. As noted by at least two resident screen reader
>>> trainers
>>> (Gene and Brian), for all practical purposes, it would be wise to move
>>> on
>>> from XP if trying to perform certain productivity and web browsing tasks
>>> (XP
>>> was a massive target of a ransomware in 2017). Thus, personally, the
>>> request
>>> to consider turning off UIA in favor of MSAA just because of appearance
>>> of
>>> stability under XP is hereby denied (sorry; I do know it will come as
>>> not
>>> the answer you are looking for, but there's nothing I and other NVDA
>>> developers can do now).
>>> Cheers,
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message---
>>>
>>>
>>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of zahra
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 8:34 PM
>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA
>>>
>>> hi joseph.
>>> i have a question about uia.
>>> can you please teach me how to disable uia in windows 7 if one day i
>>> decided
>>> to use windows 7 or use a computer of someone who uses windows 7?
>>> i wish to disable uia in windows 7 and configure nvda to use msaa on
>>> windows
>>> 7 as nvda uses msaa on windows xp.
>>> i really need this change and i am waiting for your help, God bless you!
>>>
>>> On 2/16/19, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> At least to answer Robert’s question through this one: no, it won’t be
>>>> enabled by default, as NVDA developers and some testers found bugs and
>>>> regressions with UIA on.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Joseph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Devin
>>>> Prater
>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:17 PM
>>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree, this makes reading even complex word documents as quick as
>>>> reading a mere Notepad window, making Word actually enjoyable to use.
>>>> I hope that all other Office programs start using this too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Devin Pratersent from Gmail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 6:17 AM Robert Kingett <kingettr@...
>>>> <mailto:kingettr@...> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If this will become a much wanted method of interacting with word, and
>>>> since Microsoft will continue making better support, shouldn't this be
>>>> on by default after1901?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> By God,
>>> were I given all the seven heavens
>>> with all they contain
>>> in order that
>>> I may disobey God
>>> by depriving an ant
>>> from the husk of a grain of barley,
>>> I would not do it.
>>> imam ali
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> By God,
>> were I given all the seven heavens
>> with all they contain
>> in order that
>> I may disobey God
>> by depriving an ant
>> from the husk of a grain of barley,
>> I would not do it.
>> imam ali
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> By God,
> were I given all the seven heavens
> with all they contain
> in order that
> I may disobey God
> by depriving an ant
> from the husk of a grain of barley,
> I would not do it.
> imam ali
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali



Re: Using Office Products with UIA

 

no, i am sure that i never experienced such problems on xp.
even someone with windows ten, asked me that i want to open something
and when i opened my desire, i observed openning another item.
for example: when openning skype, she observes that firefox opens for her!
if i turn off uia, can i use windows 7 without any slowness or
openning undesired item?
yes, i tested openning items of control panel, when i use first letter
of my desired item, sometimes i can easily open anything that i wish
and sometimes i recieved undesired behaviour like the time which i
want to open date and time which i explaned.

On 2/17/19, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
Your second problem is not a general probem. you are approaching Windows 7
with a bias against it that it can't be as good as XP, probably
significantly inferior so you assume that every problem is the fault of
Windows 7. It could be a problem with the specific system being used. I
explained how to stop the slower echo when you move through a list of files.
Windows 7 wouldn't be as popular as it is among blind users if it had a lot
of problems. it is a mistake to disable a feature to avoid certain problems
when the results will be unknown other problems, without properly evaluating
Windows 7 and asking here about problems you encounter. If you really
evaluate Windows 7 and ask about problems here, you may still want to turn
off UIA, but you have no basis at this time to have an informed opinion.
Did you try opening time and date more than once? One malfunction, if that
is what it was, doesn't tell us anything. Odd behaviors happen from time to
time. If it happened in XP, you wouldn't conclude anything because you
aren't biased against it.

\Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: zahra
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 12:35 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA


hi gene.
yes, one of the problems is slowness of nvda in file explorer and i
wish that when i navigate between items, i recieve feedback without
any pause!
but i heard from someone that the problems of newer windows versions
are because of uia and i decided to turn it off completely to use
windows 7 like windows xp without any slowness!
but slowness was not only problem for me.
when i wanted to open one item in control panel, i observed openning
undesired item.
for example: i went to the control panel to set the clock or calendar
of my system.
i pressed d and nvda told: date and time.
when i pressed enter to open it, nvda told action center security
instead of date and times and its options.
i dont have any of these issues on xp and got this result that msaa is
the best version of accessibility and made me hating uia.

On 2/16/19, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
Before you pursue the matter further, what benefit do you think you will
get? And you don't know what benefits you will lose. I haven't seen any
disadvantages that amount to anything in Windows 7. I get a little
slower
echoing of titles when I move up or down in the files list in Windows
Explorer or the desktop. My solution is to hold control as I move. When
I
get to something I want to open, I release control, down arrow once, up
arrow once to the item, then press enter. Holding control while moving
keeps files from being selected as you move to them. That solves the
slow
echo problem.

If you want to turn it off because you have heard this or that complaint,
such complaints may not be general problems. you shouldn't have
preconceptions based on such poor, perhaps meaningless, in terms of
generalization, evidence. And, as I said, you don't know what benefits
you
may not get by turning it off.

Don't let your XP bias lead you toward jumping to conclucions about
Windows
7. It is a popular version of Windows among blind users.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: zahra
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 11:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA


hi.
thanks for replying me.
how can i modify configuration file?
i wish to turn off uia in windows 7 if one day i can access a system
with windows 7 and just use msaa on windows 7 like windows xp!
i someday tried windows 7 and i was unsatisfied of uia and wish to
have msaa forever.

On 2/16/19, Joseph Lee <@joslee> wrote:
Hi,
You can sort of do this (modifying the configuration file), though I
can't
guarantee if that will resolve all sorts of problems you may encounter
as
a
result. For instance, although certain Windows Explorer features may
become
more "usable", it may not solve some problems you might be having.
Also, on a personal note, I wouldn't really count on going back to
Windows
XP days, or for that matter, use that as a justification for turning off
an
accessibility API. As noted by at least two resident screen reader
trainers
(Gene and Brian), for all practical purposes, it would be wise to move
on
from XP if trying to perform certain productivity and web browsing tasks
(XP
was a massive target of a ransomware in 2017). Thus, personally, the
request
to consider turning off UIA in favor of MSAA just because of appearance
of
stability under XP is hereby denied (sorry; I do know it will come as
not
the answer you are looking for, but there's nothing I and other NVDA
developers can do now).
Cheers,
Joseph


-----Original Message---


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of zahra
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 8:34 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA

hi joseph.
i have a question about uia.
can you please teach me how to disable uia in windows 7 if one day i
decided
to use windows 7 or use a computer of someone who uses windows 7?
i wish to disable uia in windows 7 and configure nvda to use msaa on
windows
7 as nvda uses msaa on windows xp.
i really need this change and i am waiting for your help, God bless you!

On 2/16/19, Joseph Lee <@joslee> wrote:
Hi,

At least to answer Robert’s question through this one: no, it won’t be
enabled by default, as NVDA developers and some testers found bugs and
regressions with UIA on.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Devin
Prater
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA



I agree, this makes reading even complex word documents as quick as
reading a mere Notepad window, making Word actually enjoyable to use.
I hope that all other Office programs start using this too.


Devin Pratersent from Gmail.





On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 6:17 AM Robert Kingett <@blindjourno
<mailto:@blindjourno> > wrote:

If this will become a much wanted method of interacting with word, and
since Microsoft will continue making better support, shouldn't this be
on by default after1901?







--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali







--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali






--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali





--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali


Re: Using Office Products with UIA

Gene
 

Your second problem is not a general probem.  you are approaching Windows 7 with a bias against it that it can't be as good as XP, probably significantly inferior so you assume that every problem is the fault of Windows 7.  It could be a problem with the specific system being used.  I explained how to stop the slower echo when you move through a list of files.  Windows 7 wouldn't be as popular as it is among blind users if it had a lot of problems.  it is a mistake to disable a feature to avoid certain problems when the results will be unknown other problems, without properly evaluating Windows 7 and asking here about problems you encounter.  If you really evaluate Windows 7 and ask about problems here, you may still want to turn off UIA, but you have no basis at this time to have an informed opinion.  Did you try opening time and date more than once?  One malfunction, if that is what it was, doesn't tell us anything.  Odd behaviors happen from time to time.  If it happened in XP, you wouldn't conclude anything because you aren't biased against it. 
 
\Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: zahra
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA

hi gene.
yes, one of the problems is slowness of nvda in file explorer and i
wish that when i navigate between items, i recieve feedback without
any pause!
but i heard from someone that the problems of newer windows versions
are because of uia and i decided to turn it off completely to use
windows 7 like windows xp without any slowness!
but slowness was not only problem for me.
when i wanted to open one item in control panel, i observed openning
undesired item.
for example: i went to the control panel to set the clock or calendar
of my system.
i pressed d and nvda told: date and time.
when i pressed enter to open it, nvda told action center security
instead of date and times and its options.
i dont have any of these issues on xp and got this result that msaa is
the best version of accessibility and made me hating uia.

On 2/16/19, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> Before you pursue the matter further, what benefit do you think you will
> get?  And you don't know what benefits you will lose.  I haven't seen any
> disadvantages that amount to anything in Windows 7.  I get a little slower
> echoing of titles when I move up or down in the files list in Windows
> Explorer or the desktop.  My solution is to hold control as I move.  When I
> get to something I want to open, I release control, down arrow once, up
> arrow once to the item, then press enter.  Holding control while moving
> keeps files from being selected as you move to them.  That solves the slow
> echo problem.
>
> If you want to turn it off because you have heard this or that complaint,
> such complaints may not be general problems.  you shouldn't have
> preconceptions based on such poor, perhaps meaningless, in terms of
> generalization, evidence.  And, as I said, you don't know what benefits you
> may not get by turning it off.
>
> Don't let your XP bias lead you toward jumping to conclucions about Windows
> 7.  It is a popular version of Windows among blind users.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: zahra
> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 11:54 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA
>
>
> hi.
> thanks for replying me.
> how can i modify configuration file?
> i wish to turn off uia in windows 7 if one day i can access a system
> with windows 7 and just use msaa on windows 7 like windows xp!
> i someday tried windows 7 and i was unsatisfied of uia and wish to
> have msaa forever.
>
> On 2/16/19, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> You can sort of do this (modifying the configuration file), though I
>> can't
>> guarantee if that will resolve all sorts of problems you may encounter as
>> a
>> result. For instance, although certain Windows Explorer features may
>> become
>> more "usable", it may not solve some problems you might be having.
>> Also, on a personal note, I wouldn't really count on going back to
>> Windows
>> XP days, or for that matter, use that as a justification for turning off
>> an
>> accessibility API. As noted by at least two resident screen reader
>> trainers
>> (Gene and Brian), for all practical purposes, it would be wise to move on
>> from XP if trying to perform certain productivity and web browsing tasks
>> (XP
>> was a massive target of a ransomware in 2017). Thus, personally, the
>> request
>> to consider turning off UIA in favor of MSAA just because of appearance
>> of
>> stability under XP is hereby denied (sorry; I do know it will come as not
>> the answer you are looking for, but there's nothing I and other NVDA
>> developers can do now).
>> Cheers,
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message---
>>
>>
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of zahra
>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 8:34 PM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA
>>
>> hi joseph.
>> i have a question about uia.
>> can you please teach me how to disable uia in windows 7 if one day i
>> decided
>> to use windows 7 or use a computer of someone who uses windows 7?
>> i wish to disable uia in windows 7 and configure nvda to use msaa on
>> windows
>> 7 as nvda uses msaa on windows xp.
>> i really need this change and i am waiting for your help, God bless you!
>>
>> On 2/16/19, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> At least to answer Robert’s question through this one: no, it won’t be
>>> enabled by default, as NVDA developers and some testers found bugs and
>>> regressions with UIA on.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Devin
>>> Prater
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:17 PM
>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree, this makes reading even complex word documents as quick as
>>> reading a mere Notepad window, making Word actually enjoyable to use.
>>> I hope that all other Office programs start using this too.
>>>
>>>
>>> Devin Pratersent from Gmail.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 6:17 AM Robert Kingett <kingettr@...
>>> <mailto:kingettr@...> > wrote:
>>>
>>> If this will become a much wanted method of interacting with word, and
>>> since Microsoft will continue making better support, shouldn't this be
>>> on by default after1901?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> By God,
>> were I given all the seven heavens
>> with all they contain
>> in order that
>> I may disobey God
>> by depriving an ant
>> from the husk of a grain of barley,
>> I would not do it.
>> imam ali
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> By God,
> were I given all the seven heavens
> with all they contain
> in order that
> I may disobey God
> by depriving an ant
> from the husk of a grain of barley,
> I would not do it.
> imam ali
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali



Re: Using Office Products with UIA

 

hi gene.
yes, one of the problems is slowness of nvda in file explorer and i
wish that when i navigate between items, i recieve feedback without
any pause!
but i heard from someone that the problems of newer windows versions
are because of uia and i decided to turn it off completely to use
windows 7 like windows xp without any slowness!
but slowness was not only problem for me.
when i wanted to open one item in control panel, i observed openning
undesired item.
for example: i went to the control panel to set the clock or calendar
of my system.
i pressed d and nvda told: date and time.
when i pressed enter to open it, nvda told action center security
instead of date and times and its options.
i dont have any of these issues on xp and got this result that msaa is
the best version of accessibility and made me hating uia.

On 2/16/19, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
Before you pursue the matter further, what benefit do you think you will
get? And you don't know what benefits you will lose. I haven't seen any
disadvantages that amount to anything in Windows 7. I get a little slower
echoing of titles when I move up or down in the files list in Windows
Explorer or the desktop. My solution is to hold control as I move. When I
get to something I want to open, I release control, down arrow once, up
arrow once to the item, then press enter. Holding control while moving
keeps files from being selected as you move to them. That solves the slow
echo problem.

If you want to turn it off because you have heard this or that complaint,
such complaints may not be general problems. you shouldn't have
preconceptions based on such poor, perhaps meaningless, in terms of
generalization, evidence. And, as I said, you don't know what benefits you
may not get by turning it off.

Don't let your XP bias lead you toward jumping to conclucions about Windows
7. It is a popular version of Windows among blind users.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: zahra
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 11:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA


hi.
thanks for replying me.
how can i modify configuration file?
i wish to turn off uia in windows 7 if one day i can access a system
with windows 7 and just use msaa on windows 7 like windows xp!
i someday tried windows 7 and i was unsatisfied of uia and wish to
have msaa forever.

On 2/16/19, Joseph Lee <@joslee> wrote:
Hi,
You can sort of do this (modifying the configuration file), though I
can't
guarantee if that will resolve all sorts of problems you may encounter as
a
result. For instance, although certain Windows Explorer features may
become
more "usable", it may not solve some problems you might be having.
Also, on a personal note, I wouldn't really count on going back to
Windows
XP days, or for that matter, use that as a justification for turning off
an
accessibility API. As noted by at least two resident screen reader
trainers
(Gene and Brian), for all practical purposes, it would be wise to move on
from XP if trying to perform certain productivity and web browsing tasks
(XP
was a massive target of a ransomware in 2017). Thus, personally, the
request
to consider turning off UIA in favor of MSAA just because of appearance
of
stability under XP is hereby denied (sorry; I do know it will come as not
the answer you are looking for, but there's nothing I and other NVDA
developers can do now).
Cheers,
Joseph


-----Original Message---


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of zahra
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 8:34 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA

hi joseph.
i have a question about uia.
can you please teach me how to disable uia in windows 7 if one day i
decided
to use windows 7 or use a computer of someone who uses windows 7?
i wish to disable uia in windows 7 and configure nvda to use msaa on
windows
7 as nvda uses msaa on windows xp.
i really need this change and i am waiting for your help, God bless you!

On 2/16/19, Joseph Lee <@joslee> wrote:
Hi,

At least to answer Robert’s question through this one: no, it won’t be
enabled by default, as NVDA developers and some testers found bugs and
regressions with UIA on.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Devin
Prater
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA



I agree, this makes reading even complex word documents as quick as
reading a mere Notepad window, making Word actually enjoyable to use.
I hope that all other Office programs start using this too.


Devin Pratersent from Gmail.





On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 6:17 AM Robert Kingett <@blindjourno
<mailto:@blindjourno> > wrote:

If this will become a much wanted method of interacting with word, and
since Microsoft will continue making better support, shouldn't this be
on by default after1901?







--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali







--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali





--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali


Re: Question on Chrome, Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

Em 18/02/2019 00:28, Gene escreveu:
I haven't used recent versions of NVDA so I don't know if an announce graphics has been added in document presentation settings But it should be.
No, there isn't such option yet. However, I agree, it should be.

Cheers,