Date   

Re: Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

The basics of it is already present in NVDA (browse mode version); it is now a matter of extending that to other places, hopefully with an add-on first, followed by an offer to move it into NVDA itself once it proves popular.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 12:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

The search feature should, I think, be in NVDA, not in the Golden Cursor. This is important funcionality and is too important to depend on a user downloading an add-on to have it available.

 

Gene 

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:58 PM

Subject: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

 

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

 

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

 

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

 

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

--

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Hertfordshire

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Re: Accessibility problems with Medium.

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


Was just reading what you wrote to the guys and the response they gave. I find what works well for me when i contact different places I say i am blind and use a screen reader. I then point them towards the nvda screen reader website or in some cases they can see a demo of nvda on you tube.

So at least it gives them idea I better not forget i say it is a adaptive technology for the blind.


The way you have to look at it at times is that it might be there very first time they have come across a screen reader or or even herd of one and what it does.


I then go through the website or software and point out what needs to be done.


In a lot of cases it is mostly labeling..


Say in the case of a website i use for banking for they went graphical did not put in the alt/tag so the screen reader could read what it was. took out the headings etc.


So I pointed out now to navigate the website i had to use the letter G for graphics to navigate the site but because there was no alt/tab it did not know what it was etc.


Pointed out what had to be done and they fixed it. I am still there customer but have done this for other websites and software etc.


Pretty much if they know what the problem is most will fix.


Another example this one still a website in the account sections they had 16 unlabled buttons but when i let them know they said they were labled visually. So then i done a recording of me navigating the account section with nvda so they could hear what i heard then pasted it on there face book page. Then emailed them back on the same email thread. Again in the email re enforced what i had pasted to there face book page and the sections that were not right.


again it got all fixed in the account section but for another company.


I guess it is better than what we see here on the list now and again people saying it does not work. What does not Is it a website/ software you know what i mean.


any how good luck with them.


But i have noticed this in some emails sent to the list. I am just wondering if the approach is the same I would have to go back and see what you said in the first emails to them.


Good luck


Gene nz


On 18/02/2019 1:19 AM, Robert Kingett wrote:

Yes, I just wanted the NVDA community to see what I've been up to. :) And, I'm still working on Patreon's accessibility too. I should have told TB to send a read receipt when sending these out, but this was my second time writing this because gmail, or TB, gave a, server busy! Error so had to do this all over again. If they don't reply within a week, I'll start making phone calls.

--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
 
Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which location (or locations) are nearest to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa).
To find out which software is installed on the APNK network please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/software To find out how to use NVDA on APNK computers please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/nvda
 

To find out which software is available on the Christchurch City Library network, and how to start the NVDA screen reader, please go to the following links. Software available  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faq/computers/#faq_5884  How to start the NVDA screen reader on Christchurch City Library computers  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faqs/what-screen-reader-software-is-available/
 
To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Golden Cursor question

Gene
 

The search feature should, I think, be in NVDA, not in the Golden Cursor. This is important funcionality and is too important to depend on a user downloading an add-on to have it available.
 
Gene 

----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:58 PM
Subject: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

Hi,

 

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

 

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

 

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

 

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

 

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: steve@...

Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk

 


Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Hi,

Sort of there with NVDA at the moment. A few years ago someone added a bunch of global commands to NVDA intended to toggle document formatting settings from everywhere, and some settings do have shortcut commands to toggle them outside of settings dialog.

One way that could help out with this “mess” is search functionality, something an NVDA developer from Europe is pondering at the moment (although side-tracked by more important things).

P.S. for those using Excel: a welcome change has just come to alpha snapshots (will talk about it on a separate topic).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 12:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Another thing, and it's not necessarily easy to do, is make settings structures have multiple routes to get to the settings one is actually looking for.

I actually think that Microsoft has done an admirable, if not perfect, job of doing that with the Windows 10 settings.  One can start digging in from any of several different likely ports of entry and follow a different route somewhat intuitively (somewhat) connected to how one started looking in the first place.

I think this is particularly necessary for any given setting that may relate to several seemingly unrelated feature sets but where each depends on that setting in some way.

A good example of the Windows 10 Settings where they did NOT succeed in this is the Use my sign-in info to automatically finish setting up my device and reopen my apps after an update or restart.  To me, even based upon the wording for the toggle itself, this should be a part of the Update & Security settings, but it isn't.  It's under Accounts, Sign-In options pane and I know of no way to get to it if you start out in Update & Security settings.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

Gene
 

But if, for some reason, you hear a lot of graphics announced and you can't turn off graphic announcements in the settings, you may save yourself a good deal of annoyance.  and it isn't much work in general.  Think about when the last two or three times were that you heard the word graphic other than in this thread or when your screen-reader announced an actual graphic. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

That’s more hard work though, as well as concentrating on the text itself for mistakes, I’d say.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 19:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

By context a lot of the time.  if not, they will know a word is missing because what is being said won't make sense.  At that point, you can go back and read the word by letter.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:12 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

But how would they know the word was missing, if the synth didn’t utter anything?

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 19:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

Yes, it would be skipped.  Most people wouldn't come across the word often in documents and they have to remember that they won't hear it.  They can read letter by letter at the missing word location to verify that it is that word if they wish.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 12:53 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

Hi Jean,

 

What happens then if you come across the word graphic in a document?  Does it just get missed out?  That would make it awkward for proofing.  I don’t like using dictionaries as a cludge if I’m honest.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 16 February 2019 13:24
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

If this setting isn't available in preferences, and I am not aware of a do not announce graphics setting, you may be able to stop graphic from being announced using the speech dictionary.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:46 AM

Subject: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

To all members
Does NVDA has feature to ignore graphic while navigating web page, and if it has, now to enable it?
A friend asked me this, and he shared him thought that sometimes he doesn't want to see graphics in article he reading, and he wonder if we could add this to NVDA if it doesn't exist. I can also create a tiket for this if noone did before.
Any help would be appreciated.
Cuong

----------------
Dang Manh Cuong
 The Assistive technology specialist
 Sao Mai Vocational and assistive center for the blind
52/22 Huynh Thien Loc St., Hoa Thanh ward, Tan Phu dist., HCM, Vietnam.
 Tel: +8428 7302-4488
 E-mail: info@...; tech@...
 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/saomaicenterfortheblind
 Website: http://www.trungtamsaomai.org; http://www.saomaicenter.org
Mobile / Viber / WhatsApp / Zalo: +84 902-572-300
 E-mail: dangmanhcuong@...; cuong@...
 Skype name: dangmanhcuong
 facebook: http://facebook.com/dangmanhcuong
 Twitter: @ManhCuongTech
NVDA Certified Expert: https://certification.nvaccess.org/


Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Another thing, and it's not necessarily easy to do, is make settings structures have multiple routes to get to the settings one is actually looking for.

I actually think that Microsoft has done an admirable, if not perfect, job of doing that with the Windows 10 settings.  One can start digging in from any of several different likely ports of entry and follow a different route somewhat intuitively (somewhat) connected to how one started looking in the first place.

I think this is particularly necessary for any given setting that may relate to several seemingly unrelated feature sets but where each depends on that setting in some way.

A good example of the Windows 10 Settings where they did NOT succeed in this is the Use my sign-in info to automatically finish setting up my device and reopen my apps after an update or restart.  To me, even based upon the wording for the toggle itself, this should be a part of the Update & Security settings, but it isn't.  It's under Accounts, Sign-In options pane and I know of no way to get to it if you start out in Update & Security settings.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

You mean an extension of NVDA find command to operate sort of everywhere? Not that I know of at the moment, but might be something that can be useful for version 4.0 (to be developed by someone, not me, as I’m the current guardian of that add-on and intend to pass it onto someone once Python 3 transition takes place).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 11:58 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

 

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

 

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

 

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

 

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: steve@...

Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk

 


Golden Cursor question

Steve Nutt
 

Hi,

 

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

 

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

 

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

 

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

 

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: steve@...

Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk

 


Re: Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

Steve Nutt
 

That’s more hard work though, as well as concentrating on the text itself for mistakes, I’d say.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 19:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

By context a lot of the time.  if not, they will know a word is missing because what is being said won't make sense.  At that point, you can go back and read the word by letter.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:12 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

But how would they know the word was missing, if the synth didn’t utter anything?

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 19:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

Yes, it would be skipped.  Most people wouldn't come across the word often in documents and they have to remember that they won't hear it.  They can read letter by letter at the missing word location to verify that it is that word if they wish.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 12:53 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

Hi Jean,

 

What happens then if you come across the word graphic in a document?  Does it just get missed out?  That would make it awkward for proofing.  I don’t like using dictionaries as a cludge if I’m honest.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 16 February 2019 13:24
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

If this setting isn't available in preferences, and I am not aware of a do not announce graphics setting, you may be able to stop graphic from being announced using the speech dictionary.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:46 AM

Subject: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

To all members
Does NVDA has feature to ignore graphic while navigating web page, and if it has, now to enable it?
A friend asked me this, and he shared him thought that sometimes he doesn't want to see graphics in article he reading, and he wonder if we could add this to NVDA if it doesn't exist. I can also create a tiket for this if noone did before.
Any help would be appreciated.
Cuong

----------------
Dang Manh Cuong
 The Assistive technology specialist
 Sao Mai Vocational and assistive center for the blind
52/22 Huynh Thien Loc St., Hoa Thanh ward, Tan Phu dist., HCM, Vietnam.
 Tel: +8428 7302-4488
 E-mail: info@...; tech@...
 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/saomaicenterfortheblind
 Website: http://www.trungtamsaomai.org; http://www.saomaicenter.org
Mobile / Viber / WhatsApp / Zalo: +84 902-572-300
 E-mail: dangmanhcuong@...; cuong@...
 Skype name: dangmanhcuong
 facebook: http://facebook.com/dangmanhcuong
 Twitter: @ManhCuongTech
NVDA Certified Expert: https://certification.nvaccess.org/


Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Joseph,

 

I’ll go through the menus over the next few days and try to make some useful suggestions.

 

I think the input thing is the most difficult to understand though, and so easy to miss the fact that it has keyboard entries in there too.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 17 February 2019 19:22
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Hi,

I’m interested in seeing which parts of the NVDA’s user interface appears to be difficult for everyday users. That way, we can figure out what can be done to improve it rather than pass on our own experiences alone.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Hi Brian,

 

I agree with you completely about programmers not really able to document.

 

Even the menu structure of NVDA that we’re talking about, was given little consideration in terms of non-geek terminology.  Writing menus, is the same in a way, as writing documentation, the menus need to be intuitive at the outset, or people won’t find or use your feature set.

 

All the best

 

STeve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 17 February 2019 18:07
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 12:52 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

To me, saying that programmers should not write manuals robs them of a valuable educational opportunity to communicate (I am a programmer and do write documentation).

And, to me, having been a programmer and having written documentation (that most people seem to like), I'd say that if you have no real ability to write to begin with you should not be writing documentation.  Or if you (any you, not you, Joseph) are writing it you had better be ready to subject it to editorial review by someone known to be skilled in the area.

Most programmers are horrific writers and, even worse, consider documentation to be useless grunt work.  And I'll never change that opinion based on decades of direct experience.

It's not that there are not exceptions, but that's what they are:  exceptions.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 02:12 PM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Writing menus, is the same in a way, as writing documentation, the menus need to be intuitive at the outset, or people won’t find or use your feature set.
Now I'll play contrarian, at least in part.   I agree that pretty much all of the "common" and/or "commonly tweaked" settings need to be front and center and named in such a way that the average user in your target demographic will apprehend their meaning upon encountering them.  That part is not rocket science.

At the same time, any complex piece of software, and screen readers are incredibly complex pieces of software, it is impossible for a great deal of what's in settings to be intuitive to the average user.   If you have something that's even vaguely approachable in that way, you generally have something that's got a lot of defaults that cannot be tweaked and that many special-needs users (and I mean for specific computing niches and vocational niches - which use software over which the screen reader will be overlaid that's out of the ordinary) end up stuck.

For something like a screen reader to be exquisitely configurable, there will be huge swaths of the total settings structure that will not, in any way, be immediately obvious not only to the average user, but even to the quite sophisticated user.   Most of the sorts of tweaks for very focused refinement in a given setting require either someone intimately familiar with things "deep under the hood" in the software or willing to become so in the zones they need to change.

A good analogy would be expecting your average driver to be able to understand and actually maintain every aspect of their cars.  That age passed a very, very long time ago.  But virtually any driver can get in any car and get from point A to point B based on the well-known commonalities in the technology.  And that's even if you get into a vehicle with things labeled in an entirely different language (which in the age of icons is increasingly rare, too).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

Gene
 

By context a lot of the time.  if not, they will know a word is missing because what is being said won't make sense.  At that point, you can go back and read the word by letter.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

But how would they know the word was missing, if the synth didn’t utter anything?

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 19:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

Yes, it would be skipped.  Most people wouldn't come across the word often in documents and they have to remember that they won't hear it.  They can read letter by letter at the missing word location to verify that it is that word if they wish.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 12:53 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

Hi Jean,

 

What happens then if you come across the word graphic in a document?  Does it just get missed out?  That would make it awkward for proofing.  I don’t like using dictionaries as a cludge if I’m honest.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 16 February 2019 13:24
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

If this setting isn't available in preferences, and I am not aware of a do not announce graphics setting, you may be able to stop graphic from being announced using the speech dictionary.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:46 AM

Subject: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

To all members
Does NVDA has feature to ignore graphic while navigating web page, and if it has, now to enable it?
A friend asked me this, and he shared him thought that sometimes he doesn't want to see graphics in article he reading, and he wonder if we could add this to NVDA if it doesn't exist. I can also create a tiket for this if noone did before.
Any help would be appreciated.
Cuong

----------------
Dang Manh Cuong
 The Assistive technology specialist
 Sao Mai Vocational and assistive center for the blind
52/22 Huynh Thien Loc St., Hoa Thanh ward, Tan Phu dist., HCM, Vietnam.
 Tel: +8428 7302-4488
 E-mail: info@...; tech@...
 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/saomaicenterfortheblind
 Website: http://www.trungtamsaomai.org; http://www.saomaicenter.org
Mobile / Viber / WhatsApp / Zalo: +84 902-572-300
 E-mail: dangmanhcuong@...; cuong@...
 Skype name: dangmanhcuong
 facebook: http://facebook.com/dangmanhcuong
 Twitter: @ManhCuongTech
NVDA Certified Expert: https://certification.nvaccess.org/


Re: Just testing

 

Hi, the reason for this test is, I received an email just now telling me that one my emails was marked as spam and I should try to subscribe again after 7 days.
As it clearly was a mistake, I'm sending to the lists that I'm into test emails to see if I keep on there.

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter

Em 17/02/2019 16:25, marcio via Groups.Io escreveu:


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Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter



Just testing

 


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Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter


Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Hi,

I’m interested in seeing which parts of the NVDA’s user interface appears to be difficult for everyday users. That way, we can figure out what can be done to improve it rather than pass on our own experiences alone.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Hi Brian,

 

I agree with you completely about programmers not really able to document.

 

Even the menu structure of NVDA that we’re talking about, was given little consideration in terms of non-geek terminology.  Writing menus, is the same in a way, as writing documentation, the menus need to be intuitive at the outset, or people won’t find or use your feature set.

 

All the best

 

STeve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 17 February 2019 18:07
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 12:52 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

To me, saying that programmers should not write manuals robs them of a valuable educational opportunity to communicate (I am a programmer and do write documentation).

And, to me, having been a programmer and having written documentation (that most people seem to like), I'd say that if you have no real ability to write to begin with you should not be writing documentation.  Or if you (any you, not you, Joseph) are writing it you had better be ready to subject it to editorial review by someone known to be skilled in the area.

Most programmers are horrific writers and, even worse, consider documentation to be useless grunt work.  And I'll never change that opinion based on decades of direct experience.

It's not that there are not exceptions, but that's what they are:  exceptions.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Hi,

At some point, in addition to bringing up terminology issues with other developers, I’ll go over the user guide (for the umpteenth time) and bring up parts that could lead to misunderstandings like our discussion on gestures versus commands, inclusion of touch commands and so on (all via GitHub; this reminds me: I need to purchase an updated version of Basic Training module to see if it is simpler than user guide we have).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of hurrikennyandopo ...
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 11:15 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Hi

 

I am guessing the touch commands are the etc in the input gestures section. it does not mention touch at all only keyboard and braille but should be updated to say also touch.

 

Gene nz

 

On 17/02/2019 11:42 PM, marcio via Groups.Io wrote:

Actually, I always found it too strange that this option was called "gestures", simply because, for me,  it means what it would mean out of the computer/programming world.
That is, a gesture is a gesture, isn't it? So I'm thinking, well here we should have the touch commands, why are the keyboard ones here as well?
And I'm into geeky stuff, sometimes dare myself programming some small things. I hope I'm not the only one geek with this understanding of things!


Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter

Em 17/02/2019 06:37, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io escreveu:

I think the issue though is when you see the word Gesture, you may not understand it as anything but a physical motion, ie making a rude sign or whatever, Its not universally known by this name for interaction with anything but touch sscreens based on my unscientific  study of half a dozen blind computer users!

A headinglike  keyboard, mouse and touch gestures for NVDA might explain it better.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Westerland" <iwesterl@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION




Another way around the issue might be to define what the word means in
context so "gesture" could be used within the contextual definition.
Just a thought.


Ian Westerland





On 2/16/2019 10:51 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

Yes we need a whole new word or phrase.
How about user input schemes or something like that?
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Bartholomew" <rlbart53@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 10:16 AM
Subject: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION



Hi,

The underlying explanation of what input gestures are is excellent and
understandable; however, for me, the issue isn't semantics per se but if the
top-level description isn't immediately obvious to the end-user, it has
failed in some way. In this case, the word gesture implies touch screens
and, so, discouraged me from finding the time to delve into an area which I
thought wasn't relevant to me. A personal failing I admit but we all have
demands upon our time so if we can weed out what we think are unnecessary
diversions, it's often the pragmatic way to go!

I accept that this whole area is a minefield as you can please some of the
people, some of the time, etc, etc, etc!

Good luck!

Richard Bartholomew















 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
 
Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which location (or locations) are nearest to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa).
To find out which software is installed on the APNK network please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/software To find out how to use NVDA on APNK computers please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/nvda
 

To find out which software is available on the Christchurch City Library network, and how to start the NVDA screen reader, please go to the following links. Software available  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faq/computers/#faq_5884  How to start the NVDA screen reader on Christchurch City Library computers  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faqs/what-screen-reader-software-is-available/
 
To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.



Re: Some mouse navigation questions

 

Hi,

At least it is separated in terms of how it is presented (multiple entries for the same command description, each of which have different commands assigned; this is on JAWS 2019). But the fact that all of these are stored inside one file (a .jkm file) demonstrates the fact that, when it comes to managing commands, JAWS and NVDA are taking the same approach (NVDA stores custom command assignments inside a file named gestures.ini, or for other languages, gestures_lang.ini where “lang” is the language code).

Ultimately, it comes down to terminology and philosophy employed (being discussed on another thread). It is true that different screen readers have different terms for the same thing; what’s more important is what’s under the surface (procedures and assumptions) given appropriate training.

I’ll bring up terminology issue with other NVDA developers (via GitHub) soon.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 11:09 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

Hi,

 

Yes, JAWS does separate them.  I’m surprised this wasn’t done at the offset.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 17 February 2019 17:51
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

Hi,

It is the same situation as JAWS’s keyboard manager (at least in the old days) where you had commands for keyboards, braille displays, and alike.

As for an explanation as to why it might not be separated for a while, see my post on road travel analogy.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

Hi jean,

 

I think maybe they should be separated.  Keyboard Commands, Touch Gestures, not all lumped into one.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 16 February 2019 00:39
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

The problem is, what should this array of ways of input be called?  Maybe input commands, which would cover everything.  This is just one more example of the decline of English.  Apps and applications, two different things, are used increasingly interchangeably.  the language in general is becoming less precise and accurate and this is just one area.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 6:15 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 07:06 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Input gestures are more abstract

Which is precisely the problem.  Callin something that is intimately familiar to the typical end user, and when it's currently the only method (regardless of keyboard being used), something "more abstract" is not the way to go. 

The folks at NV Access are far from the only software developers to go this route.   Almost every time it's the route taken it makes things more opaque to the target demographic, which is why it should be avoided in the first place.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


I am guessing the touch commands are the etc in the input gestures section. it does not mention touch at all only keyboard and braille but should be updated to say also touch.


Gene nz


On 17/02/2019 11:42 PM, marcio via Groups.Io wrote:
Actually, I always found it too strange that this option was called "gestures", simply because, for me,  it means what it would mean out of the computer/programming world.
That is, a gesture is a gesture, isn't it? So I'm thinking, well here we should have the touch commands, why are the keyboard ones here as well?
And I'm into geeky stuff, sometimes dare myself programming some small things. I hope I'm not the only one geek with this understanding of things!

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter

Em 17/02/2019 06:37, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io escreveu:
I think the issue though is when you see the word Gesture, you may not understand it as anything but a physical motion, ie making a rude sign or whatever, Its not universally known by this name for interaction with anything but touch sscreens based on my unscientific  study of half a dozen blind computer users!

A headinglike  keyboard, mouse and touch gestures for NVDA might explain it better.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Westerland" <iwesterl@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION




Another way around the issue might be to define what the word means in
context so "gesture" could be used within the contextual definition.
Just a thought.


Ian Westerland





On 2/16/2019 10:51 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Yes we need a whole new word or phrase.
How about user input schemes or something like that?
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Bartholomew" <rlbart53@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 10:16 AM
Subject: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION


Hi,

The underlying explanation of what input gestures are is excellent and
understandable; however, for me, the issue isn't semantics per se but if the
top-level description isn't immediately obvious to the end-user, it has
failed in some way. In this case, the word gesture implies touch screens
and, so, discouraged me from finding the time to delve into an area which I
thought wasn't relevant to me. A personal failing I admit but we all have
demands upon our time so if we can weed out what we think are unnecessary
diversions, it's often the pragmatic way to go!

I accept that this whole area is a minefield as you can please some of the
people, some of the time, etc, etc, etc!

Good luck!

Richard Bartholomew



















--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
 
Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which location (or locations) are nearest to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa).
To find out which software is installed on the APNK network please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/software To find out how to use NVDA on APNK computers please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/nvda
 

To find out which software is available on the Christchurch City Library network, and how to start the NVDA screen reader, please go to the following links. Software available  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faq/computers/#faq_5884  How to start the NVDA screen reader on Christchurch City Library computers  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faqs/what-screen-reader-software-is-available/
 
To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

Steve Nutt
 

But how would they know the word was missing, if the synth didn’t utter anything?

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 19:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

Yes, it would be skipped.  Most people wouldn't come across the word often in documents and they have to remember that they won't hear it.  They can read letter by letter at the missing word location to verify that it is that word if they wish.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 12:53 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

Hi Jean,

 

What happens then if you come across the word graphic in a document?  Does it just get missed out?  That would make it awkward for proofing.  I don’t like using dictionaries as a cludge if I’m honest.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 16 February 2019 13:24
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

If this setting isn't available in preferences, and I am not aware of a do not announce graphics setting, you may be able to stop graphic from being announced using the speech dictionary.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:46 AM

Subject: [nvda] Can we pass graphics while navigating web pages using NVDA?

 

To all members
Does NVDA has feature to ignore graphic while navigating web page, and if it has, now to enable it?
A friend asked me this, and he shared him thought that sometimes he doesn't want to see graphics in article he reading, and he wonder if we could add this to NVDA if it doesn't exist. I can also create a tiket for this if noone did before.
Any help would be appreciated.
Cuong

----------------
Dang Manh Cuong
 The Assistive technology specialist
 Sao Mai Vocational and assistive center for the blind
52/22 Huynh Thien Loc St., Hoa Thanh ward, Tan Phu dist., HCM, Vietnam.
 Tel: +8428 7302-4488
 E-mail: info@...; tech@...
 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/saomaicenterfortheblind
 Website: http://www.trungtamsaomai.org; http://www.saomaicenter.org
Mobile / Viber / WhatsApp / Zalo: +84 902-572-300
 E-mail: dangmanhcuong@...; cuong@...
 Skype name: dangmanhcuong
 facebook: http://facebook.com/dangmanhcuong
 Twitter: @ManhCuongTech
NVDA Certified Expert: https://certification.nvaccess.org/


Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

 

I agree with you completely about programmers not really able to document.

 

Even the menu structure of NVDA that we’re talking about, was given little consideration in terms of non-geek terminology.  Writing menus, is the same in a way, as writing documentation, the menus need to be intuitive at the outset, or people won’t find or use your feature set.

 

All the best

 

STeve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 17 February 2019 18:07
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 12:52 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

To me, saying that programmers should not write manuals robs them of a valuable educational opportunity to communicate (I am a programmer and do write documentation).

And, to me, having been a programmer and having written documentation (that most people seem to like), I'd say that if you have no real ability to write to begin with you should not be writing documentation.  Or if you (any you, not you, Joseph) are writing it you had better be ready to subject it to editorial review by someone known to be skilled in the area.

Most programmers are horrific writers and, even worse, consider documentation to be useless grunt work.  And I'll never change that opinion based on decades of direct experience.

It's not that there are not exceptions, but that's what they are:  exceptions.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back