Date   

Re: Differential behavior with NVDA Portable versus Installed when working with Microsoft Word on windows 10

Walter <walterzuiderwijk@...>
 

good day,
Went to work today, I looked for the version of Windows 10 but couldn't find it. Now that I'm home I remember that I can find it under info. The version of NVDA that did not work with word at my work was the latest update 2020.4.
But I think you're starting to get it right about the network drive being protected. Because the NVDA version on the computer itself does it with word. It is still an older version of NVDA but that has to do with the fact that I can't update it due to admin rights.
Kind regards Walter
Verzonden vanuit Mail voor Windows 10
 

Groet Walter

Op 24 jun. 2021 om 15:56 heeft Walter via groups.io <walterzuiderwijk@...> het volgende geschreven:


Dear,
My apologies I haven't been to work today because of a migraine I hope but I can't promise anything yet I'll check on Monday to see if I can email the verzies you asked for
Kind regarts Walter Zuiderwijk

Groet Walter

Op 23 jun. 2021 om 21:13 heeft Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> het volgende geschreven:

BTW, I have corrected the spelling on "when" in the topic title, which I am responsible for having introduced.  Please, if possible, respond to messages that have "when" not "wheh."
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: accessible Password managers

Fawaz Abdul rahman
 

Hi,
You can also use the password managers that come with the browser, I use the one in firefox, I know that there is one with chrome too.
Other than that, there is bitwarden (open source) and 1password (paid), subscription-based.
good luck.


On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 5:45 PM zahra <nasrinkhaksar3@...> wrote:
hi.
i think that keypass should be accessible with nvda screen reader.
also, its opensource.

On 6/28/21, Cearbhall O'Meadhra <cearbhall.omeadhra@...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Are any password managers usable with NVDA?
>
>
>
> I'm thinking of getting one to make my system more secure as I keep
> forgetting my passwords.
>
>
>
> I'm running NVDA (latest) on windows 10 on the PC.
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
>
> Cearbhall
>
>
>
> m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali






Re: Issue With Thunderbird Line Navigation In 2021.1 Beta 5

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

It happens for a few lines and then stops.



On 6/28/2021 8:18 AM, Gene wrote:
But is this a new problem with the version Ron is asking about?  And does this just happen when you move for a few lines, then stop or does it happen for an entire message?
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2021 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Issue With Thunderbird Line Navigation In 2021.1 Beta 5
 
Hi, Ron,


I don't have a problem with loss of speech but from time to time I hear
"selected" or "unselected" when I'm trying to read a message line by line,


Rosemarie



On 6/28/2021 6:11 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
> Hi Group,
>
> I do not have this issue using NVDA 2020.4 stable relese. However, I
> am seeing this issue reported on other lists. With 2021 beta 5, people
> are reporting that navigation line by line (with the up/down arrow
> keys) renders no speech.  Can anyone official or otherwise confirm
> this issue?
>





Re: Issue With Thunderbird Line Navigation In 2021.1 Beta 5

Gene
 

But is this a new problem with the version Ron is asking about?  And does this just happen when you move for a few lines, then stop or does it happen for an entire message?
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2021 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Issue With Thunderbird Line Navigation In 2021.1 Beta 5
 
Hi, Ron,


I don't have a problem with loss of speech but from time to time I hear
"selected" or "unselected" when I'm trying to read a message line by line,


Rosemarie



On 6/28/2021 6:11 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
> Hi Group,
>
> I do not have this issue using NVDA 2020.4 stable relese. However, I
> am seeing this issue reported on other lists. With 2021 beta 5, people
> are reporting that navigation line by line (with the up/down arrow
> keys) renders no speech.  Can anyone official or otherwise confirm
> this issue?
>





Re: Issue With Thunderbird Line Navigation In 2021.1 Beta 5

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Ron,


I don't have a problem with loss of speech but from time to time I hear "selected" or "unselected" when I'm trying to read a message line by line,


Rosemarie

On 6/28/2021 6:11 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi Group,

I do not have this issue using NVDA 2020.4 stable relese. However, I am seeing this issue reported on other lists. With 2021 beta 5, people are reporting that navigation line by line (with the up/down arrow keys) renders no speech.  Can anyone official or otherwise confirm this issue?


Re: accessible Password managers

 

I've been using Password Safe (as have some of my clients) for years now along with its Android port (there's an iOS one, too) Passwd Safe.

Unless something's changed, and I have no visual evidence of that as it seems to have remained static as far as the UI goes for years, it's accessible.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: accessible Password managers

Life in Six Dots
 

Hi Cearbhall,

The most accessible Password Manager I've found is 1Password. It is accessible with most screen readers including NVDA. I've used it for some years now with JAWS, NVDA, VoiceOver (macOS and iOS), and more recently with Android and even Orca and eSpeakUp on Linux.

Paul


Re: accessible Password managers

 

hi.
i think that keypass should be accessible with nvda screen reader.
also, its opensource.

On 6/28/21, Cearbhall O'Meadhra <cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie> wrote:
Hi,



Are any password managers usable with NVDA?



I'm thinking of getting one to make my system more secure as I keep
forgetting my passwords.



I'm running NVDA (latest) on windows 10 on the PC.



All the best,



Cearbhall



m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie







--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus





--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali


accessible Password managers

Cearbhall O'Meadhra
 

Hi,

 

Are any password managers usable with NVDA?

 

I’m thinking of getting one to make my system more secure as I keep forgetting my passwords.

 

I’m running NVDA (latest) on windows 10 on the PC.

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

 

 




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This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com



Issue With Thunderbird Line Navigation In 2021.1 Beta 5

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Group,

I do not have this issue using NVDA 2020.4 stable relese.  However, I am seeing this issue reported on other lists. With 2021 beta 5, people are reporting that navigation line by line (with the up/down arrow keys) renders no speech.  Can anyone official or otherwise confirm this issue?

--
Signature:
For a nation to admit it has done grevous wrongs and will strive to correct them for the betterment of all is no vice;
For a nation to claim it has always been great, needs no improvement and to cling to its past achievements is no virtue!


Welcome to the NVDA Community Add-ons website - Windows Magnifier #nvdaaddonsfeed

nvda@nvda.groups.io Integration <nvda@...>
 

Windows Magnifier

This add-on improves the use of Windows Magnifier with NVDA.

Features

  • Allows to report the result of some native Magnifier keyboard commands.
  • Allows to reduces the cases where table navigation command conflict with Magnifier's commands.
  • Adds some keyboard shortcuts to toggle various Magnifier options.

Settings

The setting panel of Windows Magnifier extension allows to configure how NVDA reacts to native Windows Magnifier commands. You may want to have more or less commands reported according to what you are able to see. This panel may be opened choosing Preferences -> Settings in the NVDA menu and then selecting the Windows Magnifier category in the Settings window. The keyboard shortcut NVDA+Windows+O then O also allows to open this settings panel directly.

The panel contains the following options:

  • Report view moves: controls what is reported when you move the view with Control+Alt+Arrows commands. The three options are:

    • Off: Nothing is reported
    • With speech: a speech message indicate the position of the zoomed view on the dimension the view is being moved.
    • With tones: a tone is played and its pitch indicates the position of the zoomed view on the dimension the view is being moved.

    This option only affects full view mode.

  • Report turn on or off: If checked, the Magnifier's state is reported when you use Windows++ or Windows+Escape commands to turn it on or off.
  • Report zoom: If checked, the Magnifier's zoom level is reported when you use Windows++ or Windows+- zoom commands.
  • Report color inversion: If checked, the color inversion state is reported when you use the control+Alt+I toggle command.
  • Report view change: If checked, the view type is reported when you use a command that changes the view type (Control+Alt+M, Control+Alt+F, Control+Alt+D, Control+Alt+L)
  • Report lens or docked window resizing: If checked, a message is reported when you use the resizing commands (Alt+Shift+Arrows). In docked window mode, the height or the width is reported. In lens mode, the new dimension cannot be reported for now. These resizing command do not seem to be available on all versions of Windows; if your Windows version does not support them, you should keep this option unchecked.
  • In documents and list views, pass control+alt+arrows shortcuts to Windows Magnifier: There are three possible choices:

    • Never: The command is not passed to Windows Magnifier and standard NVDA table navigation can operate. When used in documents out of a table, Control+Alt+Arrow commands report a "Not in a table" error message. This is the standard behaviour of NVDA without this add-on.
    • Only when not in table: In table or in list views, Control+Alt+Arrow commands perform standard table navigation. When used in documents out of a table, Control+Alt+Arrow commands perform standard Magnifier view move commands. If you still want to move Windows Magnifier view while in table or in list view, you will need to press NVDA+F2 before using Control+Alt+Arrow commands. This option is the best compromise if you want to use Control+Alt+Arrow for both Magnifier and table navigation.
    • Always: Control+Alt+Arrow commands moves the Magnifier's view in any case. This option may be useful if you do not use Control+Alt+Arrow to navigate in table, e.g. because you have changed table navigation shortcuts in NVDA or because you exclusively use Easy table navigator add-on for table navigation.

Commands added by this add-on

In addition to native Magnifier commands, this add-on provide additional commands that allow to control Magnifier's options without opening its configuration page. All the commands added to control Magnifier options are accessible through the Magnifier layer command NVDA+Windows+O:

  • NVDA+Windows+O then C: Toggles on or off caret tracking.
  • NVDA+Windows+O then F: Toggles on or off focus tracking.
  • NVDA+Windows+O then M: Toggles on or off mouse tracking.
  • NVDA+Windows+O then T: Toggles on or off tracking globally.
  • NVDA+Windows+O then S: Toggles on or off smoothing.
  • NVDA+Windows+O then R: Switches between mouse tracking modes (within the edge of the screen or centered on the screen); this feature is only available on Windows 10 build 17643 or higher.
  • NVDA+Windows+O then X: Switches between text cursor tracking modes (within the edge of the screen or centered on the screen); this feature is only available on Windows 10 build 18894 or higher.
  • NVDA+Windows+O then V: Moves the mouse cursor in the center of the magnified view (command available in full screen view only).
  • NVDA+Windows+O then O: Opens Windows Magnifier add-on settings.
  • NVDA+Windows+O then H: Displays help on Magnifier layer commands.

There is no default direct gesture for each command, but you can attribute one normally in the input gesture dialog if you wish. The same way, You can also modify or delete the Magnifier layer access gesture (NVDA+Windows+O). Yet, you cannot modify the shortcut key of the Magnifier layer sub-commands.

Magnifier's native commands

The result of the following Magnifier native commands may be reported by this add-on, according to its configuration:

  • Start Magnifier: Windows++ (on alpha-numeric keyboard or on numpad)
  • Quit Magnifier: Windows+Escape
  • Zoom in: Windows++ (on alpha-numeric keyboard or on numpad)
  • Zoom out: Windows+- (on alpha-numeric keyboard or on numpad)
  • Toggle color inversion: Control+Alt+I
  • Select the docked view: Control+Alt+D
  • Select the full screen view: Control+Alt+F
  • Select the lens view: Control+Alt+L
  • Cycle through the three view types: Control+Alt+M
  • Resize the lens with the keyboard: Shift+Alt+Left/Right/Up/DownArrow. Note: although this does not seem to be documented, this shortcut seems to have been withdrawn in recent Windows versions such as Windows 2004.
  • Move the magnified view: Control+Alt+Arrows (reporting only affects full screen mode)

Here is also a list of other Magnifier native commands, just for information:

  • Control+Alt+mouseScrollWheel: Zooms in and out using the mouse scroll wheel.
  • Control+Windows+M: Opens the Magnifier's settings window.
  • Control+Alt+R: Resizes the lens with the mouse.
  • Control+Alt+Space: Quickly shows the entire desktop when using full screen view.

None of the Magnifier native commands can be modified.

Notes

  • For computers equipped with an Intel graphic card, control+alt+arrow (left/right/up/down) are also shortcuts to modify the orientation of the screen. These shortcut are enabled by default and conflict with Windows Magnifiers shortcuts to move the view. You will need to disable them to be able to use them for the Magnifier. They can be disabled in the Intel control panel or in the Intel menu present in the system tray.
  • Depending on your Windows version, Alt+Shift+Arrow are Windows Magnifier shortcuts to resize the magnified view (lens or docked). When Magnifier is active (even in full screen mode), these shortcuts are captured by Magnifier and cannot be passed to the application, even if you press NVDA+F2 before. To use these shortcuts in the current application, you need to quit the Magnifier (Windows+Escape) and re-open it after (Windows++). For example in MS word, to decrease title level:

    • Press Windows+Escape to quit Magnifier.
    • Press Alt+Shift+RightArrow to decrease current title level.
    • Press Windows++ to re-open the Magnifier.
  • For more information about Windows Magnifier's features and shortcuts, you may want to consult the following pages:

Change log

Version 1.0

  • Initial release.


Re: Having trouble with outlook while using NVDA.

Naveen Kumar M
 

Thank you for the update.

 

Regards,

Naveen

 

certification page

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Quentin Christensen via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2021 4:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Having trouble with outlook while using NVDA.

 

Hi Naveen,

 

I checked with Microsoft, and confirmed that this is a known issue.  It has been fixed in Office 365, but not yet in Office 2019.

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 7:59 PM Naveen Kumar M <naveen.m@...> wrote:

Sorry Quentin, I missed this mail. I checked re installing the NVDA as well as reinstalling the MS office. For your information, I am using licensed version and Microsoft members also tried their level best. But, the issue hasn’t resolved.

 

Regards,

Naveen

 

 

certification page

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Crayton Benner via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2021 7:20 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Having trouble with outlook while using NVDA.

 

Have you tried reinstalling nvda at all? 

On Monday, June 21, 2021, 09:15, Naveen Kumar M <naveen.m@...> wrote:

Dear Quentin,

 

Recently I have installed MS office 2019. If I open any mails which has meeting request in outlook app, outlook is automatically getting restart. This issue I having only while NVDA or Narrator running in my system. If I open meeting request mails in outlook app while JAWS is running, I am able to open without any issues. This issue 3 members are facing in my organization. Please let me know what I can do for this issue. Even if I open the meeting requests mail without screen reader, I am not facing any issue. My colleagues tried re installing the office 2019 as well as 2016. But, still the issue hasn’t resolved. Our IT team also tried their level best. But, they couldn’t.

 

Looking forward to your response,

 

Regards,

Naveen M

 

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Re: Is doing a completely clean install of windows 10 screen reader accessible?

Luke Davis
 

Arlene

Many computers come with a recovery partition of some sort, or a factory reset partition.

This is an area of the hard drive that you can boot from, that will let you restore the computer to the way it was when you bought it. Booting from that partition and using it will require sighted help--it usually involves pressing F12 while first turning the system on, and looking in the menu that comes up for some sort of recovery or factory reset sounding partition.

There is another option. Windows itself can do a reset, in which it wipes all userdata and settings, and sets itself back to factory defaults.

The latter has one good advantage: any upgrades you have done to Windows (like from 7 to 10) will be preserved. Oh, and it is accessible as far as I can remember from the last time I did it.

Luke

On Jun 26, Arlene wrote:

Hi there, If you wipe the whole thing clean? Do you have to set it all back up as though you bought the computer brand new?  I know this sounds stupid. Do
you have to set up all your Microsoft account?  Do you have to have a windows ten disk?  This computer came without one.  If I was to wipe my system Does
this Acer computer or any other windows computers come with windows  already in them? I hope I asked the right questions.


Re: Amateur programmer, looking to create accessible programs

Sam Bushman
 

Hey Arnold,

 

I didn’t write before because others on this list are much more qualified than I am.

However, since others didn’t focus on things I would mention I decided maybe my input would help as well.

 

When you write programs for the blind The following is way helpful:

 

If you use standard windows controls instead of custom controls screen readers have a much better ability to work well.

If you provide several ways to accomplish things in the app it’s much more helpful.

Meaning keyboard access to everything not just mouse access.

If you use standard tool tips for help.

If you make sure the tab key works well everywhere it’s much more helpful. Focusing on tab order in this case makes a huge difference.

Making sure to use text labels for things when graphics are used it’s helpful.

Meaning edit boxes with labels and other controls as well.

Making sure screens have text not just graphics is huge.

The more standard your windows screens are the easier it will be for us to use.

 

Some programmers actually have a setting in there software making much better access possible.

A great example of this is the Jarte application – it’s a simple word processor.

 

I could say much more but these ideas should get you started.

 

Thanks for thinking of us.

 

The point was made but I agree, we can test and help if you like also.

 

Sam

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Arnold Summers
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2021 5:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amateur programmer, looking to create accessible programs

 

Joseph,

 

Your message was helpful, particularly the mentions of API's and GUI toolkits. It gives me something concrete to look into in the way of actual code. You gave me a lot to think about. Thank you! 

 

On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 5:00 PM Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

Hi all,

As Luke and others pointed out, there are lists dedicated to programming, and in case of NVDA specifically, there is NVDA Development list. I think both lists are good, but that won't solve the issue the original poster is looking into, and you can indeed create accessible GUI-based applications (although counterintuitive, NVDA is an accessible GUI-based application if you think about it). What I'm going to write comes from my experience as a programmer who spent years working on screen readers and have been advocating for accessibility and usability (like Luke, I'm blind, although I was a low vision user until my early teens, which was early 2000's):

As you may know, the first task of programming is looking for a problem to solve. The fact that you wish to write an app that is accessible is very notable, in that you may have found some issues you wish to solve by writing apps, along with looking at app design at the same time. So I'll assume you did your first task, so let's move onto design and accessibility aspects.

Accessibility is about designing products so it is approachable by different audiences (the task of actually using such products with help from assistive tools falls under "usability"). The question to ask when designing products with accessibility in mind is, "what are limitations and workarounds specific audiences need, and how can the product help bridge the gap that might be present for audiences?" For people with disabilities, the question falls under limitations of specific disabilities and tools that can expose your product functionality to specific audiences; for blind people, the obvious choice is using tools to help folks "see" screen content i.e. screen readers, magnifiers, color contrast, and so on; for deaf communities, using text to convey sounds, sign language output and what not. Then you would look for a way to make programs expose needed information so audiences (users) can use your product effectively, and one common scenario is using accessibility API's to communicate information to users of assistive technologies.

In GUI programming (something that's possible for blind people to do although with assistance if required), one would design data representation style (specific GUI controls for things such as text, forms, and many others). Although things may look colorful and intuitive for the majority (the term "majority" depends on language, country, and culture), without effort from humans and tools (along with mindset), the product would not be discoverable (wqord of mouth, review,s etc.), approachable (promotion, demos, etc.), and accessible (these three things must work together when accessibility is concerned, because people with disabilities are some of the most neglected communities when it comes to access to information (what I would term "information blackout"), although that is changing).

So to enhance how the product is seen by people with disabilities and to make them accessible (and usable), API's such as Microsoft Active Accessibility, UI Automation, IAccessible2 were created to help programmers design products with accessibility and usability in mind. These API's consist of at least three parts:

  1. Client/consumer: an assistive technology such as screen readers (including NVDA) is an accessibility client. The job of a client is to ask accessibility API's for information about a control a user is working on, and to perform specific actions required to help people use specific applications such as reading state changes.
  2. Server/producer: the application in question is a server because it serves clients by exposing crucial information for use by different assistive technologies. For screen readers, this means using text labels for graphical buttons, using facilities such as accessibility events to communicate activities such as screen content changes. How such info is communicated to users is the job of the client (assistive technology), and it is up to users as to what to do with information coming from the app.
  3. Accessibility bridge: API's such as MSAA and UIA serve as a bridge between servers (apps) and clients (assistive technologies). The job of accessibility API bridges is to serve as a "middle man" between users and apps by exposing server-side information (whatever the app says) in a way clients can understand, process, and present to users. At the same time, bridges accept interaction tasks (such as keyboard input) from users, communicates these facts to applications, and see what the app says.

A basic grasp of accessibility concepts is one of the steps involved in improving app accessibility (the first obvious step is understanding the culture the target audience comes from, a task you have accomplished well based on the original post). The next task is actually using assistive technologies and apps to better understand what folks are talking about. After that, it comes down to designing programs in a way that is accessible for diverse audiences such as adding labels for GUI controls and using accessibility API's to expose needed information (if using GUI toolkits, I recommend using ones known to have high accessibility marks such as wxWidgets and more recent versions of QT and WinUI/XAML). And don't forget to test your ideas with target audiences (testing, gathering feedback, etc.) early because it is more costly to "improve" accessibility later.

Before I close, one thing you may wish to ponder: if you think carefully about it, NVDA and other screen reader friends are sophisticated data processors. Their job is to gather needed information for blind people with help from facilities provided by the operating system + accessibility API's + apps + standards, process gathered information in a way suitable for presentation through multiple channels (speech, braille, sound, etc.), and presenting information to users. That's the core of screen readers, and when folks talk about screen reader development, we are talking about refining these elements (supporting newer accessibility standards, dealing with apps with no control labels, support for text-to-speech engines and braille displays, keeping an eye on operating system changes, etc.). Of course folks can customize screen readers to their liking (settings, code, add-ons, etc.). at the same time, app accessibility and usablity falls upon the responsibility of app developers, made better when they collaborate with users (this is why I always ask users to send feedback to developers to point out possible accessibility improvements).

Hope this helps a lot.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Webex Accessibility Regression

Thomas N. Chan
 

I am sorry to say when it comes to cisco, they are a bit slack when it comes to accessibility for screen readers. 
but, if you want to make certain interface to work, you must really knock their head and push your question to the top senior support before some info will be send to the developer of that particular interface.

I really hope you got better experience than I do.



Regards,
Thomas N. Chan


On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 11:25 PM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 11:11 AM, David Goldfield wrote:
while it would be ideal for a QA team to perform manual testing with NVDA, JAWS, Narrator, Supernova, VoiceOver on Mac, VoiceOver on iOS and Talkback on Android the team might not have that amount of bandwidth. If they only test with just one screen reader I’m both impressed as well as satisfied. I’m speaking as a product manager who works on an accessibility team at a media and technology company and so I think I’m looking at this issue with what I hope is a balanced perspective.
-
My deepest thanks for this insight from someone who's currently "in the trenches."  It's exactly what I'd expect, as there are certain aspects of IT that fall into the category:
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.    [In English:  The more things change, the more they remain the same.]

And we all know that ideals, any ideals, are very seldom met by we mere mortals.  A long deceased cousin of a dear deceased aunt of mine had a particularly salty way of putting it when people are wishing for something, particularly an ideal situation:  Wish in one hand and defecate in the other and see which gets full first.   I believe the readership knows the salty substitute for defecate.  That observation has stuck with me from the first moment I heard it, and I had to have been under 15 years old, because of the absolute truth of it.  Some things just ain't gonna happen.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Amateur programmer, looking to create accessible programs

Arnold Summers <arnoldsummerspbem@...>
 

Joseph,

Your message was helpful, particularly the mentions of API's and GUI toolkits. It gives me something concrete to look into in the way of actual code. You gave me a lot to think about. Thank you! 

On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 5:00 PM Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

Hi all,

As Luke and others pointed out, there are lists dedicated to programming, and in case of NVDA specifically, there is NVDA Development list. I think both lists are good, but that won't solve the issue the original poster is looking into, and you can indeed create accessible GUI-based applications (although counterintuitive, NVDA is an accessible GUI-based application if you think about it). What I'm going to write comes from my experience as a programmer who spent years working on screen readers and have been advocating for accessibility and usability (like Luke, I'm blind, although I was a low vision user until my early teens, which was early 2000's):

As you may know, the first task of programming is looking for a problem to solve. The fact that you wish to write an app that is accessible is very notable, in that you may have found some issues you wish to solve by writing apps, along with looking at app design at the same time. So I'll assume you did your first task, so let's move onto design and accessibility aspects.

Accessibility is about designing products so it is approachable by different audiences (the task of actually using such products with help from assistive tools falls under "usability"). The question to ask when designing products with accessibility in mind is, "what are limitations and workarounds specific audiences need, and how can the product help bridge the gap that might be present for audiences?" For people with disabilities, the question falls under limitations of specific disabilities and tools that can expose your product functionality to specific audiences; for blind people, the obvious choice is using tools to help folks "see" screen content i.e. screen readers, magnifiers, color contrast, and so on; for deaf communities, using text to convey sounds, sign language output and what not. Then you would look for a way to make programs expose needed information so audiences (users) can use your product effectively, and one common scenario is using accessibility API's to communicate information to users of assistive technologies.

In GUI programming (something that's possible for blind people to do although with assistance if required), one would design data representation style (specific GUI controls for things such as text, forms, and many others). Although things may look colorful and intuitive for the majority (the term "majority" depends on language, country, and culture), without effort from humans and tools (along with mindset), the product would not be discoverable (wqord of mouth, review,s etc.), approachable (promotion, demos, etc.), and accessible (these three things must work together when accessibility is concerned, because people with disabilities are some of the most neglected communities when it comes to access to information (what I would term "information blackout"), although that is changing).

So to enhance how the product is seen by people with disabilities and to make them accessible (and usable), API's such as Microsoft Active Accessibility, UI Automation, IAccessible2 were created to help programmers design products with accessibility and usability in mind. These API's consist of at least three parts:

  1. Client/consumer: an assistive technology such as screen readers (including NVDA) is an accessibility client. The job of a client is to ask accessibility API's for information about a control a user is working on, and to perform specific actions required to help people use specific applications such as reading state changes.
  2. Server/producer: the application in question is a server because it serves clients by exposing crucial information for use by different assistive technologies. For screen readers, this means using text labels for graphical buttons, using facilities such as accessibility events to communicate activities such as screen content changes. How such info is communicated to users is the job of the client (assistive technology), and it is up to users as to what to do with information coming from the app.
  3. Accessibility bridge: API's such as MSAA and UIA serve as a bridge between servers (apps) and clients (assistive technologies). The job of accessibility API bridges is to serve as a "middle man" between users and apps by exposing server-side information (whatever the app says) in a way clients can understand, process, and present to users. At the same time, bridges accept interaction tasks (such as keyboard input) from users, communicates these facts to applications, and see what the app says.

A basic grasp of accessibility concepts is one of the steps involved in improving app accessibility (the first obvious step is understanding the culture the target audience comes from, a task you have accomplished well based on the original post). The next task is actually using assistive technologies and apps to better understand what folks are talking about. After that, it comes down to designing programs in a way that is accessible for diverse audiences such as adding labels for GUI controls and using accessibility API's to expose needed information (if using GUI toolkits, I recommend using ones known to have high accessibility marks such as wxWidgets and more recent versions of QT and WinUI/XAML). And don't forget to test your ideas with target audiences (testing, gathering feedback, etc.) early because it is more costly to "improve" accessibility later.

Before I close, one thing you may wish to ponder: if you think carefully about it, NVDA and other screen reader friends are sophisticated data processors. Their job is to gather needed information for blind people with help from facilities provided by the operating system + accessibility API's + apps + standards, process gathered information in a way suitable for presentation through multiple channels (speech, braille, sound, etc.), and presenting information to users. That's the core of screen readers, and when folks talk about screen reader development, we are talking about refining these elements (supporting newer accessibility standards, dealing with apps with no control labels, support for text-to-speech engines and braille displays, keeping an eye on operating system changes, etc.). Of course folks can customize screen readers to their liking (settings, code, add-ons, etc.). at the same time, app accessibility and usablity falls upon the responsibility of app developers, made better when they collaborate with users (this is why I always ask users to send feedback to developers to point out possible accessibility improvements).

Hope this helps a lot.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Amateur programmer, looking to create accessible programs

 

Hi all,

As Luke and others pointed out, there are lists dedicated to programming, and in case of NVDA specifically, there is NVDA Development list. I think both lists are good, but that won't solve the issue the original poster is looking into, and you can indeed create accessible GUI-based applications (although counterintuitive, NVDA is an accessible GUI-based application if you think about it). What I'm going to write comes from my experience as a programmer who spent years working on screen readers and have been advocating for accessibility and usability (like Luke, I'm blind, although I was a low vision user until my early teens, which was early 2000's):

As you may know, the first task of programming is looking for a problem to solve. The fact that you wish to write an app that is accessible is very notable, in that you may have found some issues you wish to solve by writing apps, along with looking at app design at the same time. So I'll assume you did your first task, so let's move onto design and accessibility aspects.

Accessibility is about designing products so it is approachable by different audiences (the task of actually using such products with help from assistive tools falls under "usability"). The question to ask when designing products with accessibility in mind is, "what are limitations and workarounds specific audiences need, and how can the product help bridge the gap that might be present for audiences?" For people with disabilities, the question falls under limitations of specific disabilities and tools that can expose your product functionality to specific audiences; for blind people, the obvious choice is using tools to help folks "see" screen content i.e. screen readers, magnifiers, color contrast, and so on; for deaf communities, using text to convey sounds, sign language output and what not. Then you would look for a way to make programs expose needed information so audiences (users) can use your product effectively, and one common scenario is using accessibility API's to communicate information to users of assistive technologies.

In GUI programming (something that's possible for blind people to do although with assistance if required), one would design data representation style (specific GUI controls for things such as text, forms, and many others). Although things may look colorful and intuitive for the majority (the term "majority" depends on language, country, and culture), without effort from humans and tools (along with mindset), the product would not be discoverable (wqord of mouth, review,s etc.), approachable (promotion, demos, etc.), and accessible (these three things must work together when accessibility is concerned, because people with disabilities are some of the most neglected communities when it comes to access to information (what I would term "information blackout"), although that is changing).

So to enhance how the product is seen by people with disabilities and to make them accessible (and usable), API's such as Microsoft Active Accessibility, UI Automation, IAccessible2 were created to help programmers design products with accessibility and usability in mind. These API's consist of at least three parts:

  1. Client/consumer: an assistive technology such as screen readers (including NVDA) is an accessibility client. The job of a client is to ask accessibility API's for information about a control a user is working on, and to perform specific actions required to help people use specific applications such as reading state changes.
  2. Server/producer: the application in question is a server because it serves clients by exposing crucial information for use by different assistive technologies. For screen readers, this means using text labels for graphical buttons, using facilities such as accessibility events to communicate activities such as screen content changes. How such info is communicated to users is the job of the client (assistive technology), and it is up to users as to what to do with information coming from the app.
  3. Accessibility bridge: API's such as MSAA and UIA serve as a bridge between servers (apps) and clients (assistive technologies). The job of accessibility API bridges is to serve as a "middle man" between users and apps by exposing server-side information (whatever the app says) in a way clients can understand, process, and present to users. At the same time, bridges accept interaction tasks (such as keyboard input) from users, communicates these facts to applications, and see what the app says.

A basic grasp of accessibility concepts is one of the steps involved in improving app accessibility (the first obvious step is understanding the culture the target audience comes from, a task you have accomplished well based on the original post). The next task is actually using assistive technologies and apps to better understand what folks are talking about. After that, it comes down to designing programs in a way that is accessible for diverse audiences such as adding labels for GUI controls and using accessibility API's to expose needed information (if using GUI toolkits, I recommend using ones known to have high accessibility marks such as wxWidgets and more recent versions of QT and WinUI/XAML). And don't forget to test your ideas with target audiences (testing, gathering feedback, etc.) early because it is more costly to "improve" accessibility later.

Before I close, one thing you may wish to ponder: if you think carefully about it, NVDA and other screen reader friends are sophisticated data processors. Their job is to gather needed information for blind people with help from facilities provided by the operating system + accessibility API's + apps + standards, process gathered information in a way suitable for presentation through multiple channels (speech, braille, sound, etc.), and presenting information to users. That's the core of screen readers, and when folks talk about screen reader development, we are talking about refining these elements (supporting newer accessibility standards, dealing with apps with no control labels, support for text-to-speech engines and braille displays, keeping an eye on operating system changes, etc.). Of course folks can customize screen readers to their liking (settings, code, add-ons, etc.). at the same time, app accessibility and usablity falls upon the responsibility of app developers, made better when they collaborate with users (this is why I always ask users to send feedback to developers to point out possible accessibility improvements).

Hope this helps a lot.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Amateur programmer, looking to create accessible programs

arnoldsummerspbem@...
 

Thanks everyone for your replies. I'll take all of this information into account, and I'll look into the other mailing lists mentioned.


On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 11:44 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 12:33 PM, udit pandey wrote:
sir i have a question that is it necessary to take maths and science for become a programer
pls help me sir
-
This is not an appropriate line of discussion for the NVDA group.  Also, all you have to do is check with your academic institutions that offer computer science degrees, whether associate, bachelors, or higher to know that math and science are core parts of the curriculum.

Please limit this sort of discussion to the Chat Subgroup, where you already have a topic going.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Loss of Speech at Sign-in Screen after period of inactivity

 

On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 02:21 PM, Gene wrote:
I don’t know but why do you let it sit at the sign in screen?
-
I doubt that he does.  Windows (10, but not just 10) by default is set to go to sleep after a period of inactivity, and to require sign on again when awakened.  That's why I suggested turning off the sign on requirement.  I have mine set that way as well as my computer never set to sleep if it's running on AC power.  It will sleep if running on battery power, but still does not require sign on when awakened.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

I do not understand why some seek to separate a person from their actions.  The self is composed of an individual’s thoughts, actions, and expression, which are contained in and actuated by the body.  What you do and say is the clearest indicator of who you are.

      ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Wrapping Around Web Pages When Using Quick Nav Keys

Arianna Sepulveda
 

Jene, I, too, prefer the default behavior of NVDA to not wrap.


Thanks, Ari

On Jun 19, 2021, at 2:29 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:


I wrote what I did because I didn’t know there was a way to enable rapping and I wanted to encourage getting used to the other way.  I also wrote it to express my opinion about what may be disadvantages in too much automation.  Others may disagree and I’m not telling other people how to do things.  but I’m expressing my opinion so others can consider it and whether they might wat to try not having rap if they use it. 
 
Also, I raised a question about rapping, given the rather new way of having pages change with use, which wasn’t a feature of web pages when rapping was introduced.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Wrapping Around Web Pages When Using Quick Nav Keys
 

> It would be much more convenient to go to the last item I’m looking for and receive a no more buttons or headings, etc.

 

I respect that and this may be your preference. However, having a toggle would allow you to continue to enjoy doing things the way you like doing them and would also give others the freedom to navigate with the wrap feature enabled. JAWS enables this by default but contains a toggle for users who don’t like it. I was unaware that third-party addons existed to facilitate this. I will investigate them and will also encourage the developers of these addons to consider having them approved by the addons community which will make them easier to locate. I personally prefer to download NVDA addons from the official repository.

 

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

JAWS Certified, 2019

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

 

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 10:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Wrapping Around Web Pages When Using Quick Nav Keys

 

NVDA has no such setting.  I think that, after a short time, you may get used to this not occurring and it will fade away to a minor annoyance or perhaps none. 

 

And at times, I consider it an advantage not to have rap.  Let’s say I am going downa page looking for something.  I want to see if I’ve found all the relevant headings or buttons or whatever I’m looking for because I’m not sure which one I want to use.  If I find what I want near the bottom of the page, then have a rap occur, I am once again at the top of the page.  It would be much more convenient to go to the last item I’m looking for and receive a no more buttons or headings, etc.  Then I can work with the last item if it’s the one I want or I can move backwards to the one I want which may be far closer to the bottom of the page than the top. 

 

While I don’t have a strong feeling about this, I think page rap is an example of too much automation which creates as much or more inconvenience than it tries to eliminate. 

 

And another question occurred to me just now.  Does rap cause improper jumping back to the tops of pages in today’s environment?  Many pages change these days as you move through them.  they display more of the page as you move down.  This is to accommodate portable devices.

 

My question is, say you are moving down a page by heading or by a control such as by button.  Does rap cause the screen-reader to rap to the top before the page changes and appear to show that you reached the end of the page when you actually didn’t?

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 8:46 AM

Subject: [nvda] Wrapping Around Web Pages When Using Quick Nav Keys

 

Hi all,

When I am navigating a web page with quick navigation keys (H for headings, E for edit fields, etc.), when I get past the last of these on a page, it does not wrap back to the top of the page. With JAWS, it wraps around and I find this useful. Is there some setting I can change to make it wrap around?

Thanks,

David

 

 

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