Date   
Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Brian,

 

You're definitely right. There's nothing wrong with asking a sighted friend or relative for help if you're having trouble with a site. I tried different ways to navigate instacart but found it very difficult. That's why I ask my sister to help me place a grocery order.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 5:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 07:58 PM, Gene wrote:

I'm not talking about training and retraining and retraining.  I'm talking about proper training in the first place.

And part of that proper training is warning people that things will change and break, constantly, and they will be called upon to do exactly what Mr. Canazzi has said, go through the page and figure out exactly what has changed.  Sometimes that means turning to your screen reader commands reference, too.

Yes, this is a PITA.  But if you can't or won't do this your world, for any you, as a screen reader user will just keep becoming inaccessible again and again and again with no recourse.  That's seldom the case if you take the time to try to figure out what changed or ask someone you know who's sighted (or blind) and uses the same site as you do if they've noticed it change lately, and how.  The fact of the matter is that for instant analysis of what's changed in a visual medium asking a friend who's sighted will often be faster.

There is no sin, nor dependence, in reaching out to other people when you get stuck and it's often the fastest way to get unstuck.  This is all the more true if you've tried reviewing the page and find yourself so frustrated you want to damage something or someone.  No one thinks clearly once they reach that point and walking away for a while is a very good idea when that occurs.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 07:58 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm not talking about training and retraining and retraining.  I'm talking about proper training in the first place.
And part of that proper training is warning people that things will change and break, constantly, and they will be called upon to do exactly what Mr. Canazzi has said, go through the page and figure out exactly what has changed.  Sometimes that means turning to your screen reader commands reference, too.

Yes, this is a PITA.  But if you can't or won't do this your world, for any you, as a screen reader user will just keep becoming inaccessible again and again and again with no recourse.  That's seldom the case if you take the time to try to figure out what changed or ask someone you know who's sighted (or blind) and uses the same site as you do if they've noticed it change lately, and how.  The fact of the matter is that for instant analysis of what's changed in a visual medium asking a friend who's sighted will often be faster.

There is no sin, nor dependence, in reaching out to other people when you get stuck and it's often the fastest way to get unstuck.  This is all the more true if you've tried reviewing the page and find yourself so frustrated you want to damage something or someone.  No one thinks clearly once they reach that point and walking away for a while is a very good idea when that occurs.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Group,


What you do is to get a demo of JAWS and any other paid commercial software and use it in cases where NVDA doesn't work. Also, if you are using Windows 10 (and hopefully any further Windows upgrade in the future) you can use Narrator free of charge for problem areas.



On 9/27/2018 6:09 PM, brian wrote:

    Gene how do you suggest that blind people obtain more than screen reader?  Nvda is free and you can't make payments on the comercial screenreaders.  Are you willing to start a fund for the purchasse of screen readers or are you going to advocate that thecompanies offer payment plans?  I use nvda because it's all that I can aford and rember that most blind people are living on disability or ssi income and don't forget about the 80 unimployment rate of the blind.  Your suggesion is a very good one but it's not doable for the majority of the blind how do you hope to change this?  If you ask your commission for the blind you will be told that only for a job if even then you will have to write up a business plan.  If you ask your local lions club you might be told no or we would like to but that would take all of our budget for the whole year.  As I said your idea is not wrong but how can it be done?  This one reason that more blind people don't have a computer it was for me for years.  Your screen reader should never cost more than the cost of a good high end pc.  If you are lucky enough to live in a town that has a local liberary for the blind then might have a work station but thats not the case for alot of blind people.  It seems like every once in a while this comes up that blind people should have this or that with  no suggestion as to how to bring this about it should just happen.  We are not richas some people seem to think we are.  As to the matter of proper training on the use of internet and screen reader it does not seem tobe available.  Training centers and rehab centers are not doing this.  It's just learn on your own thats been the case for me and I am sure foralot of many blind people.  When can we get the proper training how will we get there and who will pay for it?  Blind people are just not tought problem solving skills at many training centers.  It's just basic survivle skills and no more even if you request it. 

Brian Sackrider   

On 9/27/2018 1:52 PM, Gene wrote:
I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet.  I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say.  I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do.  This is the result of poore training.  I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.  I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere.  If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Group,


Well as long as this thread has drifted so far off the original topic of my submit button, I thought I would keep pushing it further <laugh>.


Here is what I do when a series of shortcut (keys or techniques) no longer work on a specific page. Immediately, I deduce (a mental process that is in the current United States less and less in fashion) that something major has changed on the page.  What I do then is to closely examine, line by line and if necessary word by word, the page from top to bottom.  Most times (at least 75% or so) I see the problem right away: a button has replaced a link; a group of radio buttons has replaced a group of check boxes; a menu button exists which when pressed, reveals a series of links, button, check boxes and so on.  If that doesn't work, then I look closely at pertinent text.  I check out each word and sometimes references by the screen reader to unlabeled links or graphics and I start clicking on them: either by the space bar, going in and out of forms/browse mode, or routing mouse to application cursor and single or double clicking the item.  In about 90% of the remaining undetectable changes, this works. For the remaining 5 or so percent, I ask sources like this list to check things out and see if anyone else is having issues and sometimes, I get pertinent advice from such other sources that help me solve about 75% of the remaining 5% or so that seem at first problematic.  At least for me, that leaves about 1 or 2 percent of the pages I visit s largely inaccessible.  Sometimes, I eventually figure out a work around and sometimes I'm out of luck.  Simple human reason solves many of what at first seem unsolvable issues or problems.



On 9/27/2018 2:30 PM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:

Gene,

Things change that proficient screenreader users cannot adapt easily to as well.

For example, I did not know about menus containing hidden options.

So I went to a page, and I am looking for a download button.

I jump through looking for a download button with the letter B, and that does not work.

I list links, and press D and find no download button, nor arrowing through them finds anything relating to a download option.

So I use the find command looking for the word down and find nothing.

Without knowing that there is a new thing where content is different and there is something new, I can see where someone who is a casual user will find a page inaccessible.

 

You look at computer usage like all screenreader users should be at the level of the folks on this list, and the truth is, most are not, and will never be that proficient, so for accessibility to be a reality, things need to improve, and become more intuitive.

Having a button that says menu closed is easily overlooked.

Perhaps the sighted have some graphics there indicating what is hidden in that closed menu, but there is no description to us, we have to know to open the closed menus and see if that gives us what we want.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:20 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Let's examine an example of worthless training as opposed to good training.  Years ago,

Send Space had a download link.  If people were tought something such as to use the links list and look for the link that said download, then what would happen when Send Space changed it from a link to a button?  If they were just taught by rote, they would likely be unable to use the page.  If they had been taught to look at and understand web pages and how to find things, they would see that the link was now a button and then, after they saw this, be able to go on efficiently using the page as before.  How many times have I seen blind people claim that a site is no longer acccessible after it has been changed?  It wasn't inaccessible after the change.  Changes had been made in the site and rote memorization of the old layout didn't work any longer. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Jackie

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 11:26 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

W/all due respect, training is not a waste of time, at least if it's
the sort of training that teaches basic principles & not simply rote
memorization, ie, shake hands, roll over, speak, etc. That's just
performing commands on cue, & that sort of training is indeed
worthless. When I did adaptive tech--& admittedly, it was a long time
ago--I actually used to encourage my students to get into trouble, ie,
they would check w/me about a keystroke to press, &, knowing it was
the wrong 1, I'd tell them to go ahead. My rationale was that they
were going to get themselves into situations where they were
confronted w/stuff I hadn't taught them, & they needed to understand
the basic principles of how to cope w/the unexpected. That may at 1st
blush sound really cruel, but those that made it thru expressed that
was the 1 thing they really appreciated about my approach, ie, that I
believed they could recover on their own by using the tools they'd
been taught.

Accessibility, IMO, has overall greatly improved. The use of mobile
devices, where screen real estate is important, thereby eliminating a
lot of the big gawdy banners & sliders etc, has improved things, as
has legislation in the developed world mandating accessibility. I
recall when Windows was completely inaccessible to us--now we can
basically install it independently. So I'd also disagree w/the
gloom-&-doom naysayers who think we'll someday never be able to use a
computer. The truth is, we have more options now than we've ever had.
I recall when Apple was totally inaccessible, for example, & when we
couldn't use a cell phone to do anything but basic calling.
Change is a constant, & screenreading technology will have to evolve
w/it. On the other hand, there are now accessibility guidelines in
place for many technologies, which there weren't in the last century.
Overall, I think we're in better shape than we've ever been.
Truthfully, I wish I'd been born into this century, as I think, at
least from a technology perspective, things will overall only improve,
as a general rule.

On 9/27/18, Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:
> Glen,
>
>
>
> I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling me one time that it
> may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out from using the
> computer. I agree with you about the training. If things are constantly
> changing, then what good is it to have all that training? It would be just a
> waste of time.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin,
> Glenn
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Gene,
>
> All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can
> cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
>
> I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have
> spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no
> work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure
> technique that happens to work.
>
> It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult
> for screenreaders to keep up.
>
> I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.
>
> I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people
> being able to access pages.
>
> I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
>
> I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>  <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gene
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but
> for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands
> that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you
> could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.
> a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a
> different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot
> of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't
> use screen-reader commands.
>
>
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
>
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of
> us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice,
> then the majority of users are left behind.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>  <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
>
> Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
>
> Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have
> to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of
> catch up.
>
> Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.
> Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and
> particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way
> revolves around increased security.
>
> It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one
> screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with
> two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the
> issue might lie.
>
> --
>
> Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
>
>     The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals,
> which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot
> co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is
> untrue. . .
>
>            ~ Bertrand Russell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene
 

I'm not talking about training and retraining and retraining.  I'm talking about proper training in the first place.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Andy
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

She's right!
You're talking about training and retraining and retraining. Some of us have lives to live.
 
Andy
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Hi, Gene,

 

With all due respect, sites do constantly change unless they're like the blind mice megamall site. I

i'm sorry but I totally agree with Glen's message. All the training in the world won't help if sites keep changing. I was once able to shop for groceries online with the Vons site but when I talked to someone there, they said it's no longer accesible with screen readers. Why do you think I have to have my sighted sister help me place an order on Instacart? Simple--it's not really accessible. I've talked to friends of mine and they said you almost have to have an iphone to use their accessible app. I believe in looking at the layout of a page so you get familiar with how to use it. I tried shopping by myself on instacart but it didn't work--not even with work-arounds.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 4:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

The level of training would be available if proper training were done by those who do it in the first place.  What used to be Freedom Scientific and now has a name that evokes a bird offers a lot of training.  Nothing I am describing is taught in all that training, as far as I know. 

 

I'm a voice in the wilderness.  If blind people would join together and demand proper training, we might get somewhere.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:35 PM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level.

Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer.

If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the Blind be any different?

We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have to.

Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a screenreader.

I find it disappointing, but that is the truth.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Because of poor training.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Hi Gene,

I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet.  I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say.  I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do.  This is the result of poore training.  I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.  I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere.  If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene
 

You are generalizing from a few specifics, not proper logic.  I didn't say all sites are accessible.  Neither did I say that sites don't change.  My point is that proper training would allow blind people to figure out, in most cases, how to use sites when they do change or figure out new ones.  Of course, some sites are or become inaccessible.  I'm not talking about those. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Hi, Gene,

 

With all due respect, sites do constantly change unless they're like the blind mice megamall site. I

i'm sorry but I totally agree with Glen's message. All the training in the world won't help if sites keep changing. I was once able to shop for groceries online with the Vons site but when I talked to someone there, they said it's no longer accesible with screen readers. Why do you think I have to have my sighted sister help me place an order on Instacart? Simple--it's not really accessible. I've talked to friends of mine and they said you almost have to have an iphone to use their accessible app. I believe in looking at the layout of a page so you get familiar with how to use it. I tried shopping by myself on instacart but it didn't work--not even with work-arounds.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 4:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

The level of training would be available if proper training were done by those who do it in the first place.  What used to be Freedom Scientific and now has a name that evokes a bird offers a lot of training.  Nothing I am describing is taught in all that training, as far as I know. 

 

I'm a voice in the wilderness.  If blind people would join together and demand proper training, we might get somewhere.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:35 PM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level.

Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer.

If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the Blind be any different?

We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have to.

Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a screenreader.

I find it disappointing, but that is the truth.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Because of poor training.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Hi Gene,

I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet.  I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say.  I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do.  This is the result of poore training.  I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.  I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere.  If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Sean,

When I got my very first computer, it had a demo version of Window-eyes. It had windows 98 as its operating system. I took a computer class at the Braille Institute ad they taught Jaws. I later saved up some money and bought tutorials. I pretty much did everything on my own. As far as screen readers, I learned Jaws, window-eyes and system access. Now I just use nvda AND IT SUITS MY NEEDS VERY WELL.

rOSEMARIE

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 2:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

To be honest on training, I learned to use ms office xp, windows 95 and jaws 6.

None of that matters anymore.

I don't use jaws, I don't use such an outdated crappy office and windows combo anymore.

I have training for my keynote.

All of it is totally crap, I did most of my stuff myself.

I admit it was good at that time but its not current.

Training is fine especially if you get it but you would have to train yearly to stay updated.



On 9/28/2018 6:35 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:
Gene,
The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level.
Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer.
If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the Blind be any different?
We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have to.
Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a screenreader.
I find it disappointing, but that is the truth.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Because of poor training.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Hi Gene,
I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet. I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say. I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do. This is the result of poore training. I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet. I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere. If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene,
All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.
It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.
I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.
I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.
I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

~ Bertrand Russell







Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Andy
 


She's right!
You're talking about training and retraining and retraining. Some of us have lives to live.
 
Andy
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Hi, Gene,

 

With all due respect, sites do constantly change unless they're like the blind mice megamall site. I

i'm sorry but I totally agree with Glen's message. All the training in the world won't help if sites keep changing. I was once able to shop for groceries online with the Vons site but when I talked to someone there, they said it's no longer accesible with screen readers. Why do you think I have to have my sighted sister help me place an order on Instacart? Simple--it's not really accessible. I've talked to friends of mine and they said you almost have to have an iphone to use their accessible app. I believe in looking at the layout of a page so you get familiar with how to use it. I tried shopping by myself on instacart but it didn't work--not even with work-arounds.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 4:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

The level of training would be available if proper training were done by those who do it in the first place.  What used to be Freedom Scientific and now has a name that evokes a bird offers a lot of training.  Nothing I am describing is taught in all that training, as far as I know. 

 

I'm a voice in the wilderness.  If blind people would join together and demand proper training, we might get somewhere.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:35 PM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level.

Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer.

If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the Blind be any different?

We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have to.

Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a screenreader.

I find it disappointing, but that is the truth.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Because of poor training.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Hi Gene,

I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet.  I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say.  I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do.  This is the result of poore training.  I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.  I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere.  If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene
 

I didn't say anything about what screen-reader people should use.  Everything I say applies as much to NVDA as to any other good screen-reader.  its training that is the problem.  How to accomplish good training for blind people in generall is a good question.  I don't havbe all the answers.  I'm not sure if I have many.  If a screen-reader that is free and high quality could be created, maybe training material can be created in a community effort as well.  I leave the question opened and we'll see what sort of suggestions we get. 
 
Maybe one way to do it would be to build on the already existing structure for cooperation that exists for NVDA development but to use or adapt the framework for training development.  I haven't looked at the training material that is charged for  and is available through the NVDA site.  I don't know to what extent it may begin to meet this need.  But I don't doubt that far more is needed.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: brian
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

    Gene how do you suggest that blind people obtain more than screen reader?  Nvda is free and you can't make payments on the comercial screenreaders.  Are you willing to start a fund for the purchasse of screen readers or are you going to advocate that thecompanies offer payment plans?  I use nvda because it's all that I can aford and rember that most blind people are living on disability or ssi income and don't forget about the 80 unimployment rate of the blind.  Your suggesion is a very good one but it's not doable for the majority of the blind how do you hope to change this?  If you ask your commission for the blind you will be told that only for a job if even then you will have to write up a business plan.  If you ask your local lions club you might be told no or we would like to but that would take all of our budget for the whole year.  As I said your idea is not wrong but how can it be done?  This one reason that more blind people don't have a computer it was for me for years.  Your screen reader should never cost more than the cost of a good high end pc.  If you are lucky enough to live in a town that has a local liberary for the blind then might have a work station but thats not the case for alot of blind people.  It seems like every once in a while this comes up that blind people should have this or that with  no suggestion as to how to bring this about it should just happen.  We are not richas some people seem to think we are.  As to the matter of proper training on the use of internet and screen reader it does not seem tobe available.  Training centers and rehab centers are not doing this.  It's just learn on your own thats been the case for me and I am sure foralot of many blind people.  When can we get the proper training how will we get there and who will pay for it?  Blind people are just not tought problem solving skills at many training centers.  It's just basic survivle skills and no more even if you request it. 

Brian Sackrider   

On 9/27/2018 1:52 PM, Gene wrote:
I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet.  I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say.  I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do.  This is the result of poore training.  I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.  I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere.  If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Gene,

 

With all due respect, sites do constantly change unless they're like the blind mice megamall site. I

i'm sorry but I totally agree with Glen's message. All the training in the world won't help if sites keep changing. I was once able to shop for groceries online with the Vons site but when I talked to someone there, they said it's no longer accesible with screen readers. Why do you think I have to have my sighted sister help me place an order on Instacart? Simple--it's not really accessible. I've talked to friends of mine and they said you almost have to have an iphone to use their accessible app. I believe in looking at the layout of a page so you get familiar with how to use it. I tried shopping by myself on instacart but it didn't work--not even with work-arounds.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 4:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

The level of training would be available if proper training were done by those who do it in the first place.  What used to be Freedom Scientific and now has a name that evokes a bird offers a lot of training.  Nothing I am describing is taught in all that training, as far as I know. 

 

I'm a voice in the wilderness.  If blind people would join together and demand proper training, we might get somewhere.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:35 PM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level.

Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer.

If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the Blind be any different?

We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have to.

Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a screenreader.

I find it disappointing, but that is the truth.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Because of poor training.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Hi Gene,

I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet.  I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say.  I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do.  This is the result of poore training.  I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.  I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere.  If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene
 

The level of training would be available if proper training were done by those who do it in the first place.  What used to be Freedom Scientific and now has a name that evokes a bird offers a lot of training.  Nothing I am describing is taught in all that training, as far as I know. 
 
I'm a voice in the wilderness.  If blind people would join together and demand proper training, we might get somewhere.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene,

The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level.

Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer.

If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the Blind be any different?

We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have to.

Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a screenreader.

I find it disappointing, but that is the truth.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Because of poor training.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Hi Gene,

I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet.  I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say.  I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do.  This is the result of poore training.  I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.  I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere.  If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene
 

I didn't say that no one would ever have problems figuring out changes.  But if people apply what I taught in my Internet tutorial, they would have looked at the page, starting at the top when they couldn't find what they were looking for.  I teach other ways of finding things and, if they fail, I tell people, you will have to just start reading the page.  Page after page now has buttons that say things like navigation menu or some sort of descriptive phrase and thedy often say "collapsed."  It doesn't take superhuman deductive capaties to figure such things out.  it takes good training.  There may well be times when a blind person can't figure out this or that change.  I haven't figured out every changge I've come across on every page.  But I figured out almost all of them.  The way a lot or perhaps most blind people are taught to use the Internet is fundamentally flawed.  When you see a button that says something about menu or navigation menu and says collapsed and you don't see things you used to see on a page, what should you do if you are taught well?  You press the space bar on the button and see what happens. 
 
What do you do if you no longer see a download link if you use the links list on a page where there should b e a download control?  Use the screen-reader find command from the top of the page and search for the word download.  If you don't find it, what do you do next?  Read the page from top to bottom and see if you see a structure that may contain the download control that you need to open.  there are ways to approach these things that should be taught.
 
Not everything will be able to be figured out.  MOst will be. 
 
I am not assuming that people have the skills to do these things at present.  I hav e said repeatedly that teaching is abysmal for a lot of blind people regarding the Internet.  the world is not going to design itself around meeting the neeeds of blind people who get poor training.  Those who provide training should have a concerted effort to reach and educate those who are interested enough to learn and training materials should be rewritten so that those being trained know these things.  I did an Internet tutorial years ago where one of the phrases I used most was, "using logic and inference".  That is a phrase that should be indellibly pounded into the heads of those receiving training.  Logic and inference. 
 
And what should you do if you have no idea what something like these buttons do?  You try activating them and see.  If logic and inference fail, you try something else.  Nothing I've tried works.  I see new buttons.  I have no idea what they do.  Let's find out. 
 
In today's security environment, doing some things may be dangerous.  But activating a button that may say menu or collapsed is very unlikely to be. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene,

Things change that proficient screenreader users cannot adapt easily to as well.

For example, I did not know about menus containing hidden options.

So I went to a page, and I am looking for a download button.

I jump through looking for a download button with the letter B, and that does not work.

I list links, and press D and find no download button, nor arrowing through them finds anything relating to a download option.

So I use the find command looking for the word down and find nothing.

Without knowing that there is a new thing where content is different and there is something new, I can see where someone who is a casual user will find a page inaccessible.

 

You look at computer usage like all screenreader users should be at the level of the folks on this list, and the truth is, most are not, and will never be that proficient, so for accessibility to be a reality, things need to improve, and become more intuitive.

Having a button that says menu closed is easily overlooked.

Perhaps the sighted have some graphics there indicating what is hidden in that closed menu, but there is no description to us, we have to know to open the closed menus and see if that gives us what we want.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:20 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Let's examine an example of worthless training as opposed to good training.  Years ago,

Send Space had a download link.  If people were tought something such as to use the links list and look for the link that said download, then what would happen when Send Space changed it from a link to a button?  If they were just taught by rote, they would likely be unable to use the page.  If they had been taught to look at and understand web pages and how to find things, they would see that the link was now a button and then, after they saw this, be able to go on efficiently using the page as before.  How many times have I seen blind people claim that a site is no longer acccessible after it has been changed?  It wasn't inaccessible after the change.  Changes had been made in the site and rote memorization of the old layout didn't work any longer. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Jackie

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 11:26 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

W/all due respect, training is not a waste of time, at least if it's
the sort of training that teaches basic principles & not simply rote
memorization, ie, shake hands, roll over, speak, etc. That's just
performing commands on cue, & that sort of training is indeed
worthless. When I did adaptive tech--& admittedly, it was a long time
ago--I actually used to encourage my students to get into trouble, ie,
they would check w/me about a keystroke to press, &, knowing it was
the wrong 1, I'd tell them to go ahead. My rationale was that they
were going to get themselves into situations where they were
confronted w/stuff I hadn't taught them, & they needed to understand
the basic principles of how to cope w/the unexpected. That may at 1st
blush sound really cruel, but those that made it thru expressed that
was the 1 thing they really appreciated about my approach, ie, that I
believed they could recover on their own by using the tools they'd
been taught.

Accessibility, IMO, has overall greatly improved. The use of mobile
devices, where screen real estate is important, thereby eliminating a
lot of the big gawdy banners & sliders etc, has improved things, as
has legislation in the developed world mandating accessibility. I
recall when Windows was completely inaccessible to us--now we can
basically install it independently. So I'd also disagree w/the
gloom-&-doom naysayers who think we'll someday never be able to use a
computer. The truth is, we have more options now than we've ever had.
I recall when Apple was totally inaccessible, for example, & when we
couldn't use a cell phone to do anything but basic calling.
Change is a constant, & screenreading technology will have to evolve
w/it. On the other hand, there are now accessibility guidelines in
place for many technologies, which there weren't in the last century.
Overall, I think we're in better shape than we've ever been.
Truthfully, I wish I'd been born into this century, as I think, at
least from a technology perspective, things will overall only improve,
as a general rule.

On 9/27/18, Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:
> Glen,
>
>
>
> I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling me one time that it
> may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out from using the
> computer. I agree with you about the training. If things are constantly
> changing, then what good is it to have all that training? It would be just a
> waste of time.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin,
> Glenn
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Gene,
>
> All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can
> cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
>
> I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have
> spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no
> work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure
> technique that happens to work.
>
> It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult
> for screenreaders to keep up.
>
> I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.
>
> I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people
> being able to access pages.
>
> I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
>
> I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>  <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gene
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but
> for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands
> that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you
> could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.
> a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a
> different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot
> of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't
> use screen-reader commands.
>
>
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
>
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of
> us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice,
> then the majority of users are left behind.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>  <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
>
> Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
>
> Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have
> to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of
> catch up.
>
> Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.
> Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and
> particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way
> revolves around increased security.
>
> It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one
> screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with
> two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the
> issue might lie.
>
> --
>
> Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
>
>     The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals,
> which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot
> co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is
> untrue. . .
>
>            ~ Bertrand Russell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com

Re: StationPlaylist STudio and Windows 10 App Essentials 18.09.2 released, a note about update channels #addonrelease

Dave Grossoehme
 

Good Afternoon Joseph and group:  Has anyone else had problems installing add on scripts/programs.  I had to uninstall all my add on's to NVDA.  I thought just by chance I could reinstore, but no chance.  I've gone to the site to get add on's but they won"t update.  I can enter on the name but no action with 1809 build 17763 and nvda 1803.

Dave



On 9/18/2018 12:28 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Correction: for SPL Studio, version should be 18.09.2-lts.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2018 12:27 PM
To: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] StationPlaylist STudio and Windows 10 App Essentials 18.09.2 released, a note about update channels #AddonRelease

 

Hi all,

 

StationPlaylist Studio and Windows 10 App Essentials 18.09.2 is now available. Both versions come with mitigations for update channel selection:

 

  • StationPlaylist Studio 18.09.9: this is the update channel locking update. If you are using 18.09.1 and prefer to stay on stable builds, please do NOT install 18.09.2, as the update channel will be switched to longterm after installing it.
  • Windows 10 App Essentials: a bug regarding update checks reported by a user should be no more (more on that below).

 

Regarding Windows 10 App Essentials: the bug in question may have been caused by the fact that users might be running really old pilot snapshots (subsequently confirmed by me). I did say numerous times that update checks from old pilot builds will end in September, but apparently this warning was missed by a few. I’ll say it again (and one last time): no more pilot snapshot builds (unless things change later in future). Thus if you find that update check isn’t working for you from the add--on itself, check which add-on version you’ve got, and if you have a pilot snapshot, switch to stable channel for now.

 

Speaking of channels and update checks: the above notice does not apply if you are using Add-on Updater to check for Windows 10 App Essentials development snapshots. This capability will be extended to everyone on Thursday, including for those on stable channel.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 02:35 PM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:

The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level.

Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer.

From the perspective of being unaffordable, particularly for those who lose their vision later in life, I have a lot of sympathy and agreement.  Most of these services come through government agencies that serve special populations, and they've been subject to budget cut after budget cut after budget cut for decades now since tax cutting has become a "government sacrament" for those most politically active and influential.

From "beyond their interest level," well, then, tough toenails.  I can't make anyone, sighted or blind, do something they're not interested in doing, and it's no one else's job to decide that interest for any individual.

And I actually disagree that the knowledge requirements of using a screen reader significantly outstrip those of sighted "point and click" users.  The access method is certainly less convenient, as we're talking about using audition to replace vision in what is a visual media, but a huge amount of what's being taught is not screen reader specific, but is using the computer via the keyboard to do the same things that sighted people do with the mouse.  Under Windows, just as there are multiple "clicking routes" to a given destination there are typically multiple "keyboard shortcutting routes" too.  Instructors face a conundrum, in both cases, of teaching as many of these routes as possible, often with resulting information overload, or teaching one or two.  Most of what people using screen readers are doing via the keyboard is not in any way related to the screen reader, but is related to the operating system/application program keyboard shortcuts.  For many sighted folks (now pretty old at this point) who came to computers during the age of DOS and monochrome monitors, before WYSIWYG, they are still more comfortable with using the keyboard to do a very large number of what most of the rest of the sighted world, including myself, do by point and click.

If Microsoft had ever jettisoned the use of keyboard shortcuts to parallel pretty much every point and click equivalent, even the hope of accessibility would have been down the tubes in the PC world a long time ago.

I also teach primarily individuals who are adults who are in the process of losing their vision or recently blind.  Most go through a period where they are dealing with the emotional baggage that this development carries with it, and they need to process that first.  If I am referred someone who is still in the emotionally devastated and not yet ready to move forward yet stage, I do everything in my power to defer the training.  They're not ready for it.  By contrast, once they've done the processing of adjusting to the "new normal" for them I find that those who really want to get back to using the computer independently dive in to screen reader training with gusto.  They're often less frustrated than I am at some of the accessibility issues we encounter.   I've been driven nearly insane over the last 1.5 to 2 years at some of the developments in the world of web design and keep hoping we're going to reach a state of relative stasis again rather than constant rapid change.  I also keep hoping that someone gets the point across that it simply is not done to make one web object with which people are already intimately familiar look like another with which they're equally familiar, but that it's not.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

brian
 

    Gene how do you suggest that blind people obtain more than screen reader?  Nvda is free and you can't make payments on the comercial screenreaders.  Are you willing to start a fund for the purchasse of screen readers or are you going to advocate that thecompanies offer payment plans?  I use nvda because it's all that I can aford and rember that most blind people are living on disability or ssi income and don't forget about the 80 unimployment rate of the blind.  Your suggesion is a very good one but it's not doable for the majority of the blind how do you hope to change this?  If you ask your commission for the blind you will be told that only for a job if even then you will have to write up a business plan.  If you ask your local lions club you might be told no or we would like to but that would take all of our budget for the whole year.  As I said your idea is not wrong but how can it be done?  This one reason that more blind people don't have a computer it was for me for years.  Your screen reader should never cost more than the cost of a good high end pc.  If you are lucky enough to live in a town that has a local liberary for the blind then might have a work station but thats not the case for alot of blind people.  It seems like every once in a while this comes up that blind people should have this or that with  no suggestion as to how to bring this about it should just happen.  We are not richas some people seem to think we are.  As to the matter of proper training on the use of internet and screen reader it does not seem tobe available.  Training centers and rehab centers are not doing this.  It's just learn on your own thats been the case for me and I am sure foralot of many blind people.  When can we get the proper training how will we get there and who will pay for it?  Blind people are just not tought problem solving skills at many training centers.  It's just basic survivle skills and no more even if you request it. 

Brian Sackrider   

On 9/27/2018 1:52 PM, Gene wrote:
I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet.  I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say.  I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do.  This is the result of poore training.  I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.  I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere.  If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

To be honest on training, I learned to use ms office xp, windows 95 and jaws 6.

None of that matters anymore.

I don't use jaws, I don't use such an outdated crappy office and windows combo anymore.

I have training for my keynote.

All of it is totally crap, I did most of my stuff myself.

I admit it was good at that time but its not current.

Training is fine especially if you get it but you would have to train yearly to stay updated.

On 9/28/2018 6:35 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:
Gene,
The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level.
Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer.
If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the Blind be any different?
We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have to.
Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a screenreader.
I find it disappointing, but that is the truth.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Because of poor training.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Hi Gene,
I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet. I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say. I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do. This is the result of poore training. I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet. I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere. If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene,
All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.
It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.
I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.
I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.
I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

~ Bertrand Russell






Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

To be honest all businesses use windows, windows is what everyone uses.

I have a lot of stuff on windows.

I don't think windows will ever end or rather not end like that ms are pushing for a unified interface, a unified os.

Its happening with touch it will happen with things.

We will still have desktop terminals and such.

I don't see us ever loosing  those.

Even in startrek where its all ai and such, people still type.

True its terminals, and large mainframes and computer grids but we will still have the basic things.

On 9/28/2018 4:20 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:
As far as desktop systems, I suspect Microsoft is going to move away from them after Windows 10, and desktop systems will be left to Linux.
I think Microsoft will simply sell security upgrades to Windows 7 and 10, with 10 being their last official desktop style operating system.
Thankfully Linux has accessibility built into the main distributions.
If we see Windows discontinuing for desktop systems, we may hope for the developers of NVDA to move over to the Open source Linux platform.
Glenn the uncertain prognosticator
LOL



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 11:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Glen,

I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling me one time that it may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out from using the computer. I agree with you about the training. If things are constantly changing, then what good is it to have all that training? It would be just a waste of time.

Rosemarie

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene,
All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.
It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.
I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.
I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.
I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

~ Bertrand Russell






Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

The point of using a computer is changing though.

I like my ai I like my control

But I have friends in the now generation, they want their system to work.

If it breaks they run the recovery disk and assume it will work.

Users want the systems to work.

They don't care if they can only use a certain thing.

Technitions and those that want to will still be able to hack in or get in and use their systems if they want but it will probably be a  hobby thing like model trains are now.

Using a computer completely open, or heck driving a petrol car.

That may be strange now but driving a car will become a thing of the past.

On 9/28/2018 4:06 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Glen,


I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling me one time that it may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out from using the computer. I agree with you about the training. If things are constantly changing, then what good is it to have all that training? It would be just a waste of time.


Rosemarie


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site


Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site


That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.


Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site


Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site


On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.

Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Who knows.

People like simpler things, as long as it works its fine.

I don't care for the skills we have lost though and how rigid our os in some cases has become.

Sure if it works, fine but if it breaks what is broken and how to fix it are 2 blocks I hit every day.

In dos if it broke there were 10 reasons they could.

Fixes could be just to replace the startup files to a mangled config file or a program.

In windows, it usually is fine.

If a driver or interface breaks you probably can fix it.

But if anything else breaks even if you knew what broke to fix it, is more complex than well reformatting.

When windows breaks now I just reformat.

It makes the problem go away.

At first I tried to fix the issue but 9 times out 10 for me, I don't know what broke, and even if I knew its something I have never heard of or something else one doesn't need to interact with.

I know we put up with a lot of things breaking but so much stuff is dependant on our gear that if it breaks we panic till its fixed.

If my system breaks I am lost without a computer till I reformat and make the problem go away for a time.

In theory an os that is simple and just works may be the future.

Voice controls etc will be the thing.

It will restrict us but then on the other hand if you have used one touch screen or voice system then you used them all.

In startrek the borg were portrayed as bad, yet I recon we will be half way there.

Maybe in a hundred years if the borg were to show up we would concidder it an upgrade probably whould have done it ourselves by then.

On 9/28/2018 3:43 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:
The trouble is though that we may see a lot of folks settle for less control over their Internet experiences , choosing to use voice controlled devices over the complexity of page elements that are emerging.
With devices getting smaller, we are seeing a shift from desktop computer-based systems in favor of more portable technology.
Although keyboards are used with this portable age, it makes me wonder of the future of Windows in a non-portable situation, like in home computers.
We, where I work, are still using Windows in the office, and our business people rely on Windows and desktop computers for the business management aspect, but most field staff are using IOS for most of their work.
And maybe the IOS and Android and Windows phone-based OS is where everything is going, and it seems like those environments, at least IOS, suffers less difficulty with web content and accessibility. But that will bring a whole new set of accessibility considerations.
For me, I use a lot of IOS gestures for the touch screen, and a quick review gets me back into the IOS keyboard commands, but it is not my preferred method of accessing the web.
But I am more old-school in that regard, and maybe most of the next generation will be more comfortable doing everything on platforms like IOS/Android than I am and those older than I.

Glenn
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 10:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Accessibility in the web world is, and always has been, a game of catch-up. That is going to get worse, at least in cycles, rather than better.

That is not indicative of the long-term arc, which is unquestionably toward better accessibility.

I'm not denying that when periods of rapid change in web coding appear, there are corresponding periods of accessibility woes. These days, though, those tend to resolve in favor of accessibility, which was not necessarily the case for decades.

If one goes in knowing this, and accepting it as a simple fact, one can avoid a lot of "gloom and doom" thinking, if not frustration. It's supremely frustrating when what had worked is jettisoned for something that, for the moment, anyway, is inaccessible. Nothing is so constant as change.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

~ Bertrand Russell






Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

I agree, my grandpa later in life started with win98, and later xp.

Even though the system got secured eventually by me, he never learned to type fast, and always clicked on things meaning I had to do many reformats and other things to get things working.

In fact, It got so that I was reformatting daily simply because he would turn the unit off in the middle of an update or something.

In the end though, he got called up by someone saying that he had gotten into her computer, it was just after the yahoo breach so I double checked everything, and nothing.

They seemed to want him to pay for  dammages.

He said he hung up the phone but who knows if he did or not.

I assume it was a scam, but it worked.

He threw away his computer, canceled his net connection, throw his cellphone in the bin, and stopped doing much of everything till last year when he died.

Who knows what it was about.

Even before that, what would take me 10 minutes would take him most of the day to do.

Back then a tablet would have been darn usefull.

As it was he was used to writing and using the phone.

And that totally stopped when the local isp switched him over to wireless phone services.

If he had started earlier on maybe.

He never typed with more than 1 finger yet he was really good with an old typewriter from the 60s.

The only reason he got online was because his sports team sent him mails.

He got hacked several times but for ages I didn't see any reason about securing him.

His computer only contained sports information, he never used it otherwise plus by then he was using ancient windows and I had nothing to secure it with.

Plus any message saying he had a problem would just get him turning the system off or reformatting again so if he got a virus, he would probably just buy another computer or something and say it was broken.

When the printer ran out of ink he  threw it away because it was broken.

For those that are older and not used to the systems we use, I would go simple, android or apple maybe but never windows.

Windows as an os is really good.

But its really bad to run because of all the security issues, potential spying issues, and all sorts of things to opperate it.

Of course if you start early enough like I have done thats fine.

But he started to late and I personally think he would have been better without a computer.

With everything turning towards online for my generation its ok and for those fater me the same.

For the one just before like my dad they still have a lot of issues using things.

And the one before never had a system of their own so whow could they ever use it right anyway.

For those born into it its the other way, they don't write or hold a pen right, eventually skills are gained or lost depending where you are.

For the newer generations the tablet is the age.

For me its still the keyboard.

I started with a keyboard, I will feel better using one.

I know its in my power to use touch because a lot of my friends use it and prosper but it will take a lot for me to actually get into that.


I no longer have

On 9/28/2018 2:59 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:
I do a lot on-line, and I have certainly encountered more problems that only a very seasoned user can get through, and some sites that cannot be gotten through without multiple screenreaders, if at all.
That is merit enough to prove my point.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:22 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
And I see just the opposite. Accessibility, overall, has done nothing but get better and better in the decades I've been around that issue and we now have every major commercial operating system maker building-in screen reader technology.

Teaching at the college level (and, possibly, even earlier) related to web design discusses accessibility as a design principle, which it certainly didn't when I earned my computer science degree.

The idea that accessibility is getting worse has no merit.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

~ Bertrand Russell