Date   
Re: another puzzling seting - this time Winamp

Lino Morales
 

Hi Jiles. Yeah that’s one NVDA needs to look into now that Winamp finally is making a come back possibly in October. Your right that NVDA does not read the list of tracks. I’m thinking an add-on suggestion should be submitted here.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Giles Turnbull <giles.turnbull@...>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 11:11:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] another puzzling seting - this time Winamp
 
Hi all,

I have another puzzling program issue, this time with Winamp.

I'm sure I've experienced this before,but I can't for the life of me remember how I sorted it out!

It relates to the Winamp 5.666 edition. I use it on my home laptop, my tablet computer and this new Dell laptop that I've got for university work.

For some reason I cannot navigate the playlist with NVDA. I suspect there is a setting that relates to how tracks are displayed, but I can't spot it in the preferences. The playlist window is definitely active.

If I move into the playlist I simply cannot navigate up and down the list. All NVDA says is “List.” I have a good 30 mp3s in the playlist and, even if I start a new playlist and then enqueue a further set of mp3s, I remain unable to navigate the playlist.

I didn't bring the Winamp 5.666 installer with me, unfortunately.

I installed the NVDA extended Winamp addon last night but that doesn't seem to have changed anything.

Any suggestions very welcome.

Giles

Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Damien Garwood
 

Hi Brian,
I understand. Like I say, I recognise there's a lot of work involve. But at the end of the day, we don't choose to be blind, or deaf, or lack a sense of smell or spacial coordination.
I also understand that this isn't an ideal world and thus, at least for the moment, we do have to pay extra.
However, I do believe it's not right and will generally complain to whoever caused the inconvenience in the first place and stress how important it is that it is fully accessible.
Some countries do implement accessibility straight into their daily lives. Escalators that click at different speeds to differentiate up and down before you even step onto them. Beeping road crossings. Decent kerbs and lined pathways for better navigation. Failing that, constant announcements at public venues encouraging people to help those in need of assistance. Now if similar care had been taken to make technology that accessible, we wouldn't be in the position we're in today.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 07:42 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 01:49 PM, Damien Garwood wrote:
I know my views may seem very extreme to some,
And, indeed, they are.   Society at large is, and should be, expected to provide reasonable accommodations.  Sometimes those will be free, sometimes they will not.
You can and will often have to pay more to perform the same task because it is your personal needs that incur the expense.  It's not up to anyone else to foot that bill for you, though it's great when they will and do.
The above being said, I don't think society at large takes accessibility (in every sense of the word) seriously enough.  But reasonable accommodations are not any individual's ideal accommodations in all probability.  There are all sorts of individual differences that cause the individual to incur additional personal expense not in any way limited to what is viewed as a disability, either.  It's just a part of life, and no two individuals or groups that are non-overlapping are ever likely to be 100% perfectly equal.  Society and the law recognize what I describe as "equal enough" because perfect equality is attainable only in the abstract.
--
Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
/The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which //assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with //a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . ./
           ~ Bertrand Russell

Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Gene
 

I'm nnot talking about exact methods and I don't know how proprietary they are or how generally known such methods are.  I'm talking about ways of doing things such as MSAA which is now largely replaced as I understand it by UIA and techniques that are in public view.  Quick navigation keys when using browse mode, b for button, h for heading etc. aren't proprietary and anyone can use a commercial screen-reader that uses them and see them described in documentation.  Concepts like the JAWS cursor or the Window-eyes mouse pointer are in plain view.  Commands for seeing formatting information is another example. 
 
My point is that a lot of work and development went into for profit screen-readers which is in plain view and NVDA wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced as it is if these decades of work hadn't been done.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Hi Gene,
How can we be sure that NVDA is built on the same foundations as
commercial screen readers? To me, that doesn't make logical sense. I'm
not saying outright that it isn't the case - maybe I'm misinterpreting
or misunderstanding something here.
For one thing, commercial screen readers, by the very nature and
definition of the term, are closed-source, and thus any methods of
access would be kept a closely guarded secret. Let's face it - they
would know that competitors would be dangerous to the future of their
own operation, especially given the price tag. This is true for most
large companies, why should screen reading manufacturers be any different?
Secondly, NVDA uses open-source components to provide access to braille
and in-built speech (I'm referring of course to ESpeak), and
closed-source but publicly documented API's to provide accessibility
communication between system, applications and user. Commercial screen
readers need separate drivers that chain onto the video drivers and
access screen content that way. To me, that suggests that the way NVDA
works is totally different than its commercial predecessors.
Which is more reliable is, of course, subject to opinion. As far as I am
aware, each method will have its own advantages and disadvantages, but
that's another discussion entirely.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 06:56 PM, Gene wrote:
> The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying assumption
> of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be
> provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay
> for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind
> people would be if this had been followed throughout history?
> In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical matter, it
> isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it
> for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.
> NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere
> near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in
> competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and
> experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all
> this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the
> very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it
> is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually,
> role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Cristóbal <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?
>
> He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own
> hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming
> abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own
> heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.
>
> Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a
> solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack
> of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow
> through on stuff. Whatever.
>
> But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it
> sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for
> access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger
> issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential
> process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.
>
> Cristóbal
>
> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Darren
> Harris via Groups.Io
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But
> the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry
> but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!
>
>
> On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...
> <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>> wrote:
>
>     Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.
>
>     Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.
>
>     Cristóbal
>
>     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>     <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>     *Darren Harris via Groups.Io
>     *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
>     I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve
>     captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!
>
>
>     On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...
>     <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>> wrote:
>
>         The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless”
>         computer.
>
>         I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some
>         stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.
>
>         But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor
>         connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.
>
>         So for most folks, that is a good solution.
>
>         Glenn
>
>         It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally
>         have a monitor connected to it.
>
>         *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>         <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>         *Desert Moon
>         *Sent:* Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
>         Hello All,
>
>         When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the
>         Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's
>         on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
>         --
>         Desert
>
>


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 01:49 PM, Damien Garwood wrote:
I know my views may seem very extreme to some,
And, indeed, they are.   Society at large is, and should be, expected to provide reasonable accommodations.  Sometimes those will be free, sometimes they will not.

You can and will often have to pay more to perform the same task because it is your personal needs that incur the expense.  It's not up to anyone else to foot that bill for you, though it's great when they will and do.

The above being said, I don't think society at large takes accessibility (in every sense of the word) seriously enough.  But reasonable accommodations are not any individual's ideal accommodations in all probability.  There are all sorts of individual differences that cause the individual to incur additional personal expense not in any way limited to what is viewed as a disability, either.  It's just a part of life, and no two individuals or groups that are non-overlapping are ever likely to be 100% perfectly equal.  Society and the law recognize what I describe as "equal enough" because perfect equality is attainable only in the abstract.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Gene,

           This is one of those rare instances where we are on precisely the same page.

           Solutions to any given problem may (or may not) trigger ancillary problems for any specific population.  It is not incumbent on someone solving one problem to spend ages thinking about "the law of unintended consequences" when a solution to the initial problem (in this case of Captchas, both rampant spam and bot registrations) is pressing.

            There is a difference between providing reasonable accommodations and providing every possible workaround at no cost and instantly.  I just don't see why certain members of this community cannot and will not see that there are competing and equally valid interests being protected and sometimes that means your interest will be on "the losing side" and you will have to figure out a solution or pay someone else to do so.  This is true for everyone in the world to a greater or a lesser extent, depending on the situation.

             The same thing is true of those who adamantly insist that employers are responsible for providing them the screen reader of their choice.  While that would be nice, and you should lobby for that as an individual, if they're providing you with one that allows you to do the job that's where reasonable accommodation stops.  Now, a wise employer knows that from a productivity standpoint making someone relearn software that they've already mastered from another maker is most often a very inefficient use of resources compared to getting the alternative already known installed.  But if they're willing to pay the price in time and pay and make someone learn, that's their call.  Anyone who's ever worked in a large organization knows that you, as an employee, are going to bend to the employer's wishes and not the other way around.  One can and should advocate for oneself, but one should also recognize when the envelope is being pushed to its likely breaking point, too.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Damien Garwood
 

Hi Gene,
How can we be sure that NVDA is built on the same foundations as commercial screen readers? To me, that doesn't make logical sense. I'm not saying outright that it isn't the case - maybe I'm misinterpreting or misunderstanding something here.
For one thing, commercial screen readers, by the very nature and definition of the term, are closed-source, and thus any methods of access would be kept a closely guarded secret. Let's face it - they would know that competitors would be dangerous to the future of their own operation, especially given the price tag. This is true for most large companies, why should screen reading manufacturers be any different?
Secondly, NVDA uses open-source components to provide access to braille and in-built speech (I'm referring of course to ESpeak), and closed-source but publicly documented API's to provide accessibility communication between system, applications and user. Commercial screen readers need separate drivers that chain onto the video drivers and access screen content that way. To me, that suggests that the way NVDA works is totally different than its commercial predecessors.
Which is more reliable is, of course, subject to opinion. As far as I am aware, each method will have its own advantages and disadvantages, but that's another discussion entirely.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 06:56 PM, Gene wrote:
The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying assumption of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind people would be if this had been followed throughout history?
In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical matter, it isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.
NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually, role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Cristóbal <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>
*Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?
He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.
Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow through on stuff. Whatever.
But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.
Cristóbal
*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Darren Harris via Groups.Io
*Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!
On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@... <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>> wrote:
Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.
Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.
Cristóbal
*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
*Darren Harris via Groups.Io
*Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve
captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!
On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...
<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>> wrote:
The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless”
computer.
I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some
stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.
But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor
connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.
So for most folks, that is a good solution.
Glenn
It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally
have a monitor connected to it.
*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
*Desert Moon
*Sent:* Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
Hello All,
When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the
Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's
on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
--
Desert

Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Roger Stewart
 

Here Here!!  I couldn't have said it better!

Roger

On 9/24/2018 12:49 PM, Damien Garwood wrote:
Hi Brian,
I can see both sides of the coin here.
I am not generally one for grouching and complaining all the time, but I can see why a lot of blind people complain about paying for accessibility. Of course, I draw the line when I see people complaining that an audio game is not worth the price, when it is in fact half the price that its mainstream version would be in a gamestore. However, the fact that, prior to 2006, all screen readers pretty much required a bankvault to fund, as do braille notes, displays and embossers, whether manual or automatic, to this very day. Talking calculators and dictionaries used to cost in the hundreds (of course computers can do a much better job of both these days), when sighted people had access to these materials at as much as a tenth, and as little as a hundredth, of the cost. So yes, I can certainly see why Darren would complain that we should have to pay a monthly fee, no matter how small, to pay for solving CAPTCHAs, which sighted people could solve with a simple glance at the screen...In other words, paying for accessibility, which in my eyes (no pun intended) should be a basic human right governed by law, rather than another attempt to try to snatch as much money out of us as they can, bearing in mind that a lot of blind people live on a very low income in the first place.
On the other hand, I totally appreciate that a lot of work goes into these things, whether it be studio time for recording an audiobook or movie narration script, people working for AIRA or Be My Eyes etc, or developing the hardware and/or software specifically to conquer these barriers, designing a database of different algorithms used for CAPTCHAs, not to mention any components that the developers themselves may have to pay for in the process of development and so on, and that things do, somehow, need to be funded from somewhere in the chain. Of course, as I said in an earlier message, CBG itself relied on an external paid service to operate.
This is why I am extremely thankful for NVAccess, who actually gave us a screen reader for free, out of the goodness of their hearts, and a pure understanding of the problem we face on a daily basis, and decided to recoup their losses through donations. Had it not been for them, I would likely not be able to use a computer, unless I decided to tolerate rebooting every thirty or forty minutes with a demo screen reading product.
Then again, we come back to accessibility by right - if this was mandatory by law years ago, we wouldn't have to rely on third-party services to "break" security and/or reverse-engineer things in the first place, since getting back to our original scenario, all CAPTCHAs would be configurable to the disability involved, giving options for distorted image, ASCII, audio, text, logic, or form based. Governments would have no need to stretch their funds to the limit and say no to 99% of people who applied for a grant for a specific piece of equipment or adaptation. There would be none of this "have you anyone sighted to read the display?" or "look at the lights?". Everything would just be sitting right there, waiting for us to use efficiently and effectively.
Summary: I do not think we should get everything handed on a silver platter. But nor do I believe we should just shut up and live with our sorry lot. If a sighted person goes bowling and pays £10, and I go bowling and have to pay £30 because I can't read the scoreboard, I will complain, and I will complain rigorously.
I know my views may seem very extreme to some, given the current status quo, and given how difficult it is to incorporate accessibility into things. But I personally believe we have as much right to accessibility as women now have the right to vote. I have no qualms about paying, but I don't think we should have to pay any more than a so-called able-bodied person would have to pay to perform the same task, just because one or more parts of our body that society says we need don't function in the way society seems to think they should.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 04:35 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 11:10 AM, Darren Harris wrote:

    Why should anybody have to pay to solve captures? It was nothing
    more than exploitation!

Because a lot of people want an automated method to solve them so that they can workaround what is supposed to be a way of preventing bots from getting access to things.

These solving services aren't primarily aimed at the blind and the prices they charge are a pittance.

Believe it or not, it's not all about you.  The world does not revolve around you.  People work to create the software and databases dedicated to this purpose and expect that there should be remuneration for that work.  It's not shocking nor is it wrong (other than I think it's sleazy to workaround something meant to prevent spamming, and that's what's really going on here, which is, sadly, pretty much a part of the cat and mouse game of security).

--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

/The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which //assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with //a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . ./

            ~ Bertrand Russell


.

Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Gene
 

The problem isn't just with this one service.  The underlying assumption of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind people would be if this had been followed throughout history? 
 
In an ideal world, this might be the case.  But as a practical matter, it isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable. 
 
NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually, role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Cristóbal
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?

He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.

Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow through on stuff. Whatever.

But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.

 

 

 

Cristóbal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...> wrote:

Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.

Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.

 

Cristóbal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...> wrote:

The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless” computer.

I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.

But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.

So for most folks, that is a good solution.

 

Glenn

It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally have a monitor connected to it.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Desert Moon
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Hello All,

When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
--
Desert

Re: NVDA 2018.3 running slow in Windows 7

Cearbhall O'Meadhra
 

Hi Quentin et al,

 

A colleague reported today that the Latest Firefox is running very slow when she have NVDA running in Windows 7. She has good eyesight and finds that Firefox runs smoothly and snappily when NVDA is not running.

 

Is this the issue that has been reported recently?

 

If so, what version of Firefox should she run with Windows 7 and what version of NVDA would be recommended also.

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

Re: stopping DropBox from importing photos from removable media

Hareth
 

Hi Gene,
For some reason that feature is located in the auto play settings in
control panel.

On 9/24/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
Did you open properties and switch between the parts of the properties
dialog with control tab to try to find such a setting?

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list accFrom: "Giles Turnbull"
<giles.turnbull@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] stopping DropBox from importing photos from removable
media


Hi Brian,

No, I can't find the checkbox that relates to not wanting DropBox to import

media on either the app or in my account on the DropBox website.

Giles









Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Damien Garwood
 

Hi Brian,
I can see both sides of the coin here.
I am not generally one for grouching and complaining all the time, but I can see why a lot of blind people complain about paying for accessibility. Of course, I draw the line when I see people complaining that an audio game is not worth the price, when it is in fact half the price that its mainstream version would be in a gamestore. However, the fact that, prior to 2006, all screen readers pretty much required a bankvault to fund, as do braille notes, displays and embossers, whether manual or automatic, to this very day. Talking calculators and dictionaries used to cost in the hundreds (of course computers can do a much better job of both these days), when sighted people had access to these materials at as much as a tenth, and as little as a hundredth, of the cost. So yes, I can certainly see why Darren would complain that we should have to pay a monthly fee, no matter how small, to pay for solving CAPTCHAs, which sighted people could solve with a simple glance at the screen...In other words, paying for accessibility, which in my eyes (no pun intended) should be a basic human right governed by law, rather than another attempt to try to snatch as much money out of us as they can, bearing in mind that a lot of blind people live on a very low income in the first place.
On the other hand, I totally appreciate that a lot of work goes into these things, whether it be studio time for recording an audiobook or movie narration script, people working for AIRA or Be My Eyes etc, or developing the hardware and/or software specifically to conquer these barriers, designing a database of different algorithms used for CAPTCHAs, not to mention any components that the developers themselves may have to pay for in the process of development and so on, and that things do, somehow, need to be funded from somewhere in the chain. Of course, as I said in an earlier message, CBG itself relied on an external paid service to operate.
This is why I am extremely thankful for NVAccess, who actually gave us a screen reader for free, out of the goodness of their hearts, and a pure understanding of the problem we face on a daily basis, and decided to recoup their losses through donations. Had it not been for them, I would likely not be able to use a computer, unless I decided to tolerate rebooting every thirty or forty minutes with a demo screen reading product.
Then again, we come back to accessibility by right - if this was mandatory by law years ago, we wouldn't have to rely on third-party services to "break" security and/or reverse-engineer things in the first place, since getting back to our original scenario, all CAPTCHAs would be configurable to the disability involved, giving options for distorted image, ASCII, audio, text, logic, or form based. Governments would have no need to stretch their funds to the limit and say no to 99% of people who applied for a grant for a specific piece of equipment or adaptation. There would be none of this "have you anyone sighted to read the display?" or "look at the lights?". Everything would just be sitting right there, waiting for us to use efficiently and effectively.
Summary: I do not think we should get everything handed on a silver platter. But nor do I believe we should just shut up and live with our sorry lot. If a sighted person goes bowling and pays £10, and I go bowling and have to pay £30 because I can't read the scoreboard, I will complain, and I will complain rigorously.
I know my views may seem very extreme to some, given the current status quo, and given how difficult it is to incorporate accessibility into things. But I personally believe we have as much right to accessibility as women now have the right to vote. I have no qualms about paying, but I don't think we should have to pay any more than a so-called able-bodied person would have to pay to perform the same task, just because one or more parts of our body that society says we need don't function in the way society seems to think they should.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 04:35 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 11:10 AM, Darren Harris wrote:
Why should anybody have to pay to solve captures? It was nothing
more than exploitation!
Because a lot of people want an automated method to solve them so that they can workaround what is supposed to be a way of preventing bots from getting access to things.
These solving services aren't primarily aimed at the blind and the prices they charge are a pittance.
Believe it or not, it's not all about you.  The world does not revolve around you.  People work to create the software and databases dedicated to this purpose and expect that there should be remuneration for that work.  It's not shocking nor is it wrong (other than I think it's sleazy to workaround something meant to prevent spamming, and that's what's really going on here, which is, sadly, pretty much a part of the cat and mouse game of security).
--
Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
/The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which //assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with //a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . ./
           ~ Bertrand Russell

Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Gene
 

Whether it was more expensive than it should have been is one question.  But being blind may cost you some money because you may need a service that you need to pay for.  Ideally, you would get such services for free but this is not an ideal world and assuming that someone charging for something is exploiting you is not reasonable nor valid logic.  It depends. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...> wrote:

The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless” computer.

I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.

But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.

So for most folks, that is a good solution.

 

Glenn

It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally have a monitor connected to it.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Desert Moon
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Hello All,

When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
--
Desert

Re: stopping DropBox from importing photos from removable media

Gene
 

Did you open properties and switch between the parts of the properties dialog with control tab to try to find such a setting?
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list accFrom: "Giles Turnbull" <giles.turnbull@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] stopping DropBox from importing photos from removable
media


Hi Brian,

No, I can't find the checkbox that relates to not wanting DropBox to import
media on either the app or in my account on the DropBox website.

Giles






Re: stopping DropBox from importing photos from removable media

Hareth
 

Disabling and Enabling dropbox photos auto import from removable
drives can be done with the auto play options in control panel.

On 9/24/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
How are you looking for the check box? Have you looked in the properties
available from the system tray when you open the Drop Box menu in that way?
I don't know if they are in properties, but the web site has a lot of
accessibility problems and if you are using the web site, that may explain
why you can't find the check box.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Giles Turnbull
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 3:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] stopping DropBox from importing photos from removable media


Hi all,

I've recently installed DropBox onto a new laptop. On my other devices I've
obviously managed to turn off importing photos but on this new laptop I need
to make the required change in my account preferences.

First of all I searched the net for instructions on doing this but it said I
should look for a chekcbox by the import photos or import photos and videos
... obviously the checkbox should be checked to allow importing and
unchecked to disable it. I could find no such checkbox using NVDA.

SO I asked in the DropBox community and was told essentially the same advice
... use the checkbox.

Is there a reason I'm not finding the checkboxes with NVDA 2018.3.1 using
browse mode or object navigation?

Any advice on turning this setting off would be very welcome!

thanks,

Giles



Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Gene
 

I assume that in general, such people don't intend to do harm.  But I still would not show or share personal information wit them unless there were no alternative.  Hiding your password should be adequate protection.  But just as I don't assume that most volunteeers at the service would do me harm, I'm not going to assume that none of them will. 
If it is ever necessary to disclose personal information, I would disclose only what is necessary and nothing more.
 
Aside from that, I'm not sure using a service like this to solve a captcha would work.  You may want to comment on the clarity of what you see when someone sends a camera image of a screen to someone.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 02:55 AM, Richard Bartholomew wrote:
Also, you are placing a lot of faith in someone who will probably be able to see your logon details as well as the captcha!
Well, for myself, as a volunteer for Be My Eyes, I know very well both what the formal rules are (which would forbid such unethical behavior) and the informal rules are (which would forbid such unethical behavior).

Also, as has been pointed out, passwords themselves are virtually never shown by default, and I can't imagine there's any blind individual who would frequently wish to turn on the show password feature where it is available.

It is one thing to be cautious and another to be paranoid.  There is no reason to believe that people volunteering to assist in this way are doing so to do you harm.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

Re: stopping DropBox from importing photos from removable media

Gene
 

How are you looking for the check box?  Have you looked in the properties available from the system tray when you open the Drop Box menu in that way?  I don't know if they are in properties, but the web site has a lot of accessibility problems and if you are using the web site, that may explain why you can't find the check box. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 3:49 AM
Subject: [nvda] stopping DropBox from importing photos from removable media

Hi all,

I've recently installed DropBox onto a new laptop. On my other devices I've obviously managed to turn off importing photos but on this new laptop I need to make the required change in my account preferences.

First of all I searched the net for instructions on doing this but it said I should look for a chekcbox by the import photos or import photos and videos ... obviously the checkbox should be checked to allow importing and unchecked to disable it. I could find no such checkbox using NVDA.

SO I asked in the DropBox community and was told essentially the same advice ... use the checkbox.

Is there a reason I'm not finding the checkboxes with NVDA 2018.3.1 using browse mode or object navigation?

Any advice on turning this setting off would be very welcome!

thanks,

Giles

Re: Toggling On and Off Format Documents #addonrelease

David Kingsbury
 

OK, I guess that makes sense. I would never want to toggle off the things in the elements group (headings, links, etc.).

Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Cristóbal
 

This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?

He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.

Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow through on stuff. Whatever.

But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.

 

 

 

Cristóbal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...> wrote:

Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.

Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.

 

Cristóbal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...> wrote:

The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless” computer.

I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.

But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.

So for most folks, that is a good solution.

 

Glenn

It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally have a monitor connected to it.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Desert Moon
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Hello All,

When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
--
Desert

Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Ron,

           Life is not without risk, for any of us.  Each of us has to make our own risk assessments, and act accordingly.

           Though I am not blind, I have plenty of life experience with volunteer organizations of multiple kinds.  There are a few "bad apples" out there even in those, but they are not the preponderance of those volunteering.  It is an insult to the bulk of the good people who do volunteer their time to imply or state that the risks of "being taken" are much higher than they are.

            In the specific context mentioned, solving captchas, the probability of a Be My Eyes volunteer being someone trying to cull user IDs, then spending an inordinate amount of time trying to crack a password they can't see, to take advantage of a blind user is so small as to be negligible.  The amount of effort huge and the likelihood of "payoff" is near to zero.  Crooks don't go for endeavors with "near to zero" probability of succeeding.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Brian,


You write in part:


"There is no reason to believe that people volunteering to assist in this way are doing so to do you harm."
There is also no reason to believe that they won't do you harm!  As someone who has been more or less self sufficient for my whole life, who now, because of declining health, must depend on others: both volunteers and those who are paid--not much but something--I have been ripped off several times in the past year since I have needed such assistance.

On 9/24/2018 10:12 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 02:55 AM, Richard Bartholomew wrote:
Also, you are placing a lot of faith in someone who will probably be able to see your logon details as well as the captcha!
Well, for myself, as a volunteer for Be My Eyes, I know very well both what the formal rules are (which would forbid such unethical behavior) and the informal rules are (which would forbid such unethical behavior).

Also, as has been pointed out, passwords themselves are virtually never shown by default, and I can't imagine there's any blind individual who would frequently wish to turn on the show password feature where it is available.

It is one thing to be cautious and another to be paranoid.  There is no reason to believe that people volunteering to assist in this way are doing so to do you harm.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"