Date   

Re: Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

Gene
 

I hope it is true and true in general because when I move up one level and read without using OCR, I don't have the information read in all the child objects.

Having all the information read in all the child objects and all the child objects of those objects might be important.
Perhaps someone can give a command to do that as well.
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Rui Fontes
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 10:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

Sorry, but if I go a level up untill find the parent object of the
installer, OCR is done to all window...


Rui Fontes


Às 15:48 de 26/03/2021, Gene escreveu:
I'm not sure OCR would reveal such text. The description of the feature using the input gestures describer for the Windows 10 OCR is that it recognizes the content of the current navigator object. It appears to me that you won't be in a navigator object where this content exists if you tab around an installer that isn't properly accessible. You may be able to find the object by looking around and seeing if you can open another navigator object in every object you can find, or maybe by moving up one level and seeing if there are other objects there, but that appears to me to be a problem with some or many of these kinds of dialogs. It isn't at all easy to find, if you can at all, the content even looking through all navigator objects.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene via groups.io
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 10:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

Not having used the program, it sounds as though the installer doesn't show
the information to a screen-reader. I've seen installers not show
information such as potentially unwanted programs and the method to indicate
you don't want them when installing free software. What I'm saying is that
you can't assume information is all displayed if most or almost all is by an
installer. Usually it all is or that which is needed is but you can't
assume.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 10:15 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:02 AM, Rui Fontes wrote:
No way to choose that in the installer...-
Rui,

Yes, there is. I've done it on more than one occasion. It is part and
parcel of the installer and a dialog.


Re: Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

Francis Leadley
 

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:54 AM Francis Leadley via groups.io <leadleyfrancis0=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Open Office is another


On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 12:25 AM Lanie Molinar <laniemolinar91@...> wrote:
Hi all. I hope this is the right place to post this. I'm looking for
free alternatives to Microsoft Office that work with NVDA and Windows
10. I had access to Microsoft Office for years through my university,
but I had to quit school recently because my health wouldn't allow me to
continue. I doubt I could afford a subscription to Microsoft 365. My
school account hasn't been canceled, so I could still technically use
Microsoft Office free through them, but I'm not sure I should do that,
and I don't want to continue using, and getting more familiar with,
software that I'll eventually have to give up. I know there's
LibreOffice. Is that the best free alternative, or are there others I
should try? Thanks.







Re: Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

Rui Fontes
 

Sorry, but if I go a level up untill find the parent object of the installer, OCR is done to all window...


Rui Fontes


Às 15:48 de 26/03/2021, Gene escreveu:

I'm not sure OCR would reveal such text.  The description of the feature using the input gestures describer for the Windows 10 OCR is that it recognizes the content of the current navigator object.  It appears to me that you won't be in a navigator object where this content exists if you tab around an installer that isn't properly accessible.  You may be able to find the object by looking around and seeing if you can open another navigator object in every object you can find, or maybe by moving up one level and seeing if there are other objects there, but that appears to me to be a problem with some or many of these kinds of dialogs.  It isn't at all easy to find, if you can at all, the content even looking through all navigator objects.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene via groups.io
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 10:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

Not having used the program, it sounds as though the installer doesn't show
the information to a screen-reader.  I've seen installers not show
information such as potentially unwanted programs and the method to indicate
you don't want them when installing free software.  What I'm saying is that
you can't assume information is all displayed if most or almost all is by an
installer.  Usually it all is or that which is needed is but you can't
assume.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 10:15 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:02 AM, Rui Fontes wrote:
No way to choose that in the installer...-
Rui,

Yes, there is.  I've done it on more than one occasion.  It is part and
parcel of the installer and a dialog.


Re: Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

Francis Leadley
 

Open Office is another


On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 12:25 AM Lanie Molinar <laniemolinar91@...> wrote:
Hi all. I hope this is the right place to post this. I'm looking for
free alternatives to Microsoft Office that work with NVDA and Windows
10. I had access to Microsoft Office for years through my university,
but I had to quit school recently because my health wouldn't allow me to
continue. I doubt I could afford a subscription to Microsoft 365. My
school account hasn't been canceled, so I could still technically use
Microsoft Office free through them, but I'm not sure I should do that,
and I don't want to continue using, and getting more familiar with,
software that I'll eventually have to give up. I know there's
LibreOffice. Is that the best free alternative, or are there others I
should try? Thanks.







Re: Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

Gene
 

I'm not sure OCR would reveal such text. The description of the feature using the input gestures describer for the Windows 10 OCR is that it recognizes the content of the current navigator object. It appears to me that you won't be in a navigator object where this content exists if you tab around an installer that isn't properly accessible. You may be able to find the object by looking around and seeing if you can open another navigator object in every object you can find, or maybe by moving up one level and seeing if there are other objects there, but that appears to me to be a problem with some or many of these kinds of dialogs. It isn't at all easy to find, if you can at all, the content even looking through all navigator objects.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene via groups.io
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 10:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

Not having used the program, it sounds as though the installer doesn't show
the information to a screen-reader. I've seen installers not show
information such as potentially unwanted programs and the method to indicate
you don't want them when installing free software. What I'm saying is that
you can't assume information is all displayed if most or almost all is by an
installer. Usually it all is or that which is needed is but you can't
assume.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 10:15 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:02 AM, Rui Fontes wrote:
No way to choose that in the installer...-
Rui,

Yes, there is. I've done it on more than one occasion. It is part and
parcel of the installer and a dialog.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

~ Anton Chekhov


Re: Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

 

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:31 AM, Gene wrote:
Usually it all is or that which is needed is but you can't assume.
-
Gene, we agree on this, but in my case, it's not an assumption.  I have even mentioned on several instances in the past that the dialog where you pick ribbon versus menu driven is not 100% accessible, and someone else actually came up with the workaround to allow the selection to be made.

Installers, regardless of their exact behavior, are not, in my experience, ever inconsistent in what they present.  Whether those things are accessible is an entirely different matter, but if someone can show me an installer that differs radically from location to location at install, I'd like to see it.  I expect that language choices will be based on locality, but that's the only difference I expect.

I will also note, again, and not just in reference to installers, that when you (any you, including me) are the "odd man out" when it comes to behavior the probability is that there is an issue idiosyncratic to your own machine/environment.  We just saw that, writ large, with regard to the regex discussion where I had not cleaned out another experiment from earlier that was interfering with the latest one.

If a standard save dialog is not being spoken by a screen reader, something's way off, and it's not likely to be in the software the screen reader's running over since save dialogs are put up by system calls to Windows.

Rui appears to be having a chain of peculiarities that I'm at a loss to explain, but they are not the norm.  And even one or two other people having similar doesn't make them the norm.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

      ~ Anton Chekhov

 


Re: Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

V Stuart Foote
 

Launch the Programs & Features directly.

Use WindowsKey  + R   for the Run dialog

enter "appwiz.cpl"

After dialog opens onto the "uninstall or change a program" panel, focus into the list of programs, and locate "Softmaker FreeOffice 2018"

If you have a mouse, right button click for context menu; or use alt-gr keyboard menu button to expose context menu.

Select the uninstall.

Alternatively, once selected you can advance through the UI to the Uninstall button--crummy sequence though.

Deal with UAC (provide an administrator credential if needed).

Uninstall will proceed with NVDA sounding progress bar.

At the end of uninstall a Softmaker survey web page will open with focus.

Finish that as you prefer, then relocate the Programs and Features panel and close it out--not a good idea to leave it running.


Re: Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

Gene
 

Not having used the program, it sounds as though the installer doesn't show the information to a screen-reader. I've seen installers not show information such as potentially unwanted programs and the method to indicate you don't want them when installing free software. What I'm saying is that you can't assume information is all displayed if most or almost all is by an installer. Usually it all is or that which is needed is but you can't assume.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 10:15 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:02 AM, Rui Fontes wrote:
No way to choose that in the installer...-
Rui,

Yes, there is. I've done it on more than one occasion. It is part and parcel of the installer and a dialog.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

~ Anton Chekhov


Re: Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

Rui Fontes
 

Sorry, but it is not, at least here!

I have inspected all installation dialogs with screen review and OCR...


Rui Fontes


Às 15:15 de 26/03/2021, Brian Vogel escreveu:

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:02 AM, Rui Fontes wrote:
No way to choose that in the installer...
-
Rui,

Yes, there is.  I've done it on more than one occasion.  It is part and parcel of the installer and a dialog.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

      ~ Anton Chekhov

 


Re: Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

 

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:02 AM, Rui Fontes wrote:
No way to choose that in the installer...
-
Rui,

Yes, there is.  I've done it on more than one occasion.  It is part and parcel of the installer and a dialog.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

      ~ Anton Chekhov

 


Re: Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

Rui Fontes
 

No way to choose that in the installer...

It only appears on the first run of one of the programs...


Rui Fontes


Às 03:11 de 26/03/2021, Brian Vogel escreveu:

On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 10:32 PM, Rui Fontes wrote:
Using screen revision, OCR and some luck...
-
Hence the reason I emphasize that every effort should be made to choose the menu driven interface in the installer.

I need to see if the beta of 2021 I have will still install and see if there have been improvements in the installer and in the ribbon interface in this product.

But I cannot replicate any of the issues with any of the dialog boxes in the 2018 version of SoftMaker Free Office.  Since these are not really "a part of" any individual program, but are calls to Windows system functions, passing them the parameters like name of the program you want on the Save dialog, they should be the same pretty much across the board, even if other aspects of a given program were to be 100% inaccessible.

For those interested in how the various sorts of dialog boxes work, see:  

Dialog Boxes Overview - WPF .NET Framework | Microsoft Docs

 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

      ~ Anton Chekhov

 


Re: problems with a punctuation mark

Giles Turnbull
 

Hi to those who have replied. I normally use SAPI5 voice Zira, and occasionally Hazel. I just tried using the eSpeak synthesiser and the result is the same.

I did wonder if it might be the fact that I have the NVDA Speech settings option for automatic language switching toggled on, but I just toggled it off and that hasn't made any difference. I've noticed this in one friend posting from Minsk in Belarus, and another in Germany. The only comparable thing I've ever encountered is when viewing Word documents written in English by somebody in Germany, when a full stop gets spoken as "punkt", which is the German full stop punctuation mark. But, like others have noted, I can't imagine why somebody would use two single apostrophes as opposed to a double quote mark.

I did try the regular expression entry that Brian suggested, with no effect. I also tried changing the tick marks in the search and replacement fields (the tick / apostrophe does not seem to be not the same as a ′ symbol since NVDA says "tick" for the apostrophe but "prime" for the symbol) ... and there is still no change to NVDA saying "prime".

My only other thought is that I've only noticed this on Facebook and I know the Belarussian friend's posts reach me via Facebook's translation service. I cannot remember whether the German case had been translated. Much in the same way that OCR can render punctuation symbols as letters, maybe it is interpretting a double quote mark as being two prime symbols .. in fact, I'd go as far as to say that's highly likely! I will make enquiries about it :)

Thanks all

Giles .


Re: problems with a punctuation mark

 

On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 12:05 PM, Giles Turnbull wrote:
′′book′′
-
Giles,

         After what's been mentioned in the two parallel topics about this, I would recommend you construct your regular expression using copy and paste.  Then, after having copied an actual example in, change the word that is between the quotation characters to:  (.*)
By doing this you are insured that whatever characters they are using are what are going in to your regex, and the bit of the regex I've given above captures the actual word that's between the two.   Presuming you still want those read as quote, the replacement string:
quote \1 quote
will get that result.

I am presuming you have a default dictionary that's not nearly as whacky as mine has become as a direct result of testing all of these sorts of things and failing to consistently clean up afterward.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

      ~ Anton Chekhov

 


Re: Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

 

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 06:56 AM, Hettie wrote:
How do I uninstall the program?
-
Using Control Panel, Programs & Features Item.

Open that, find Softmaker Free Office in the list and select it, then activate the Uninstall control.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

      ~ Anton Chekhov

 


Re: problems with a punctuation mark

 

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 08:21 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Why is it pronounced Tick, when it should be Apostrophe or Single Quote?
-
Steve,

I could swear that this was just discussed here, but it could have been on the JAWS group.

In programming circles in particular, when going through characters, brevity is valued.  It is a lot faster to say/hear tick for either apostrophe or single quote.  It is also very common for exclamation point to be announced as bang.

It's nothing more than a design choice based on a specific jargon convention.  It really can speed things up if you do a lot of character by character checking.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

      ~ Anton Chekhov

 


Re: problems with a punctuation mark

Steve Nutt
 

Hi,

 

I was going to mention the Tick.  Why is it pronounced Tick, when it should be Apostrophe or Single Quote? I have changed it in mine, but it’s an odd default pronunciation.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 25 March 2021 22:05
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problems with a punctuation mark

 

Gene,

Just curious what you get for the following line:

''Gene''

Using OneCore I get Gene prime, which is really interesting. Particularly because I get tick (which is not unexpected) if I start going character by character from the start of the line.

It would be better, if it's not being done by some weird automation, for the originators not to use two single quotes in place of a single double quote character.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

      ~ Anton Chekhov

 


Re: Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

Hettie <woehler.hettie@...>
 

I tried SoftMaker FreeOffice but don't like it. How do I uninstall the program?

The normal way to uninstall programs from the settings menu doesn't work. I enter on the option to uninstall the program and then Windows starts to install it again. Even Google couldn't come with a workable solution.


Hettie


On 3/25/2021 3:34 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Lanie,

          Here's the link to the main page (which includes a download button) for SoftMaker FreeOffice.  I am fairly certain that I discussed installing it either on the Chat Subgroup or Windows 10 for Screen Reader Users group.  What's truly perversely funny is that everything in the setup is accessible except the screen where you choose menu versus ribbon driven interface.  And the interface is switchable in the programs themselves, but if you initially go with ribbon that makes even the switching a nightmare.  But it's easy enough to work through that screen once you know what it looks like just by tabbing a couple of times then hitting enter.  If you need me to look this up, please send me a private message.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

      ~ Anton Chekhov

 


Re: does nvda have its own keystroke to read footnote?

Sylwek Piekarski
 

Hello Paul

Thank you for a very functional addition.
I have a proposal to program another function. I suggest adding the ability to read for the current page of the content from the header and footer. I suggest that separate keyboard shortcuts are used.

Regards

Sylwek

W dniu 19.03.2021 o 19:46, bering.p pisze:

Hi,
If you want, you can try  this add-on:
wordAccessEnhancement
This is the current development version.

The stable version is here:
v2.3

I am at your disposal for any further informations.
Best regards.
Paul.
Le 19/03/2021 03:37, Aschalew Byness a écrit :
Hi Friends?
When I  read with NVDA, I want to read the content in the footnote as
well. Does nvda have keystroke of its own to read footnote like
alt+shift+e in jaws? the raven shortcut of word (alt+s, h, is a litle
bit time taking.








Re: problems with a punctuation mark

Gene
 

I'm not sure what is being used. In the one example given with the marks, if I read them character by character, I hear apostrophe, not tick. If I read the line, I don't hear anything. I tried using double apostrophes using my keyboard, announced as ticks, in Notepad, preceding and following a word and I hear tick tick, if I have punctuation set to read that sign.

So there are two questions, what is being used and what synthesizer is being used.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 5:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problems with a punctuation mark

Gene,

Just curious what you get for the following line:

''Gene''

Using OneCore I get Gene prime, which is really interesting. Particularly because I get tick (which is not unexpected) if I start going character by character from the start of the line.

It would be better, if it's not being done by some weird automation, for the originators not to use two single quotes in place of a single double quote character.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

~ Anton Chekhov


Re: Accessible Alternatives to Microsoft Office

 

On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 10:32 PM, Rui Fontes wrote:
Using screen revision, OCR and some luck...
-
Hence the reason I emphasize that every effort should be made to choose the menu driven interface in the installer.

I need to see if the beta of 2021 I have will still install and see if there have been improvements in the installer and in the ribbon interface in this product.

But I cannot replicate any of the issues with any of the dialog boxes in the 2018 version of SoftMaker Free Office.  Since these are not really "a part of" any individual program, but are calls to Windows system functions, passing them the parameters like name of the program you want on the Save dialog, they should be the same pretty much across the board, even if other aspects of a given program were to be 100% inaccessible.

For those interested in how the various sorts of dialog boxes work, see:  

Dialog Boxes Overview - WPF .NET Framework | Microsoft Docs

 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out.

      ~ Anton Chekhov

 

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