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Re: Instances of redundancy

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I've noted this as well. the search engine one is a real pain in the backside. I only use console windows sometimes but for odd reasons it seems not to be always doing it. I suspect its detecting the cursor focus moves rather than its final resting place, so to speak.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 7:41 AM
Subject: [nvda] Instances of redundancy


Hi!
I am noticing that, when typing into the Youtube search field, for
every character I type, NVDA will repeat the name of the search field
followed by its current contents.
Also, in Chrome's address bar, when an automatic suggestion is
detected, that same auto suggestion is repeated every time I type an
additional character still matching the same suggestion.
Over time I find my concentration suffers when my audio input is
overloaded with all that stuttering. Is there a constellation of
settings which would minimize that kind of redundancy while still
keeping track of changes? I've experimented with the document and
browse mode settings but haven't come up with anything useful thus
far.
In addition, I am noticing that in colsole windows, the same text is
often spoken multiple times, even if both character and word echo are
turned off. It sounds a bit like this:
Peter, Paul and. Peter, Paul and Mary were sitting. Sitting in the.
Sitting in the kitchen.
As a programmer I need to be sure what my console is doing or not
doing. Is there a way to make this behave reliably in this most basic
of scenarios? I wouldn't be complaining if this were a complex gui,
but we're talking about simple text-mode console here.
All the best, looking forward to everyone's friendly advice,
Felix


Re: my regular bullets disappeared after updateing word 2010

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

So you are saying they are on screen but cursoring over them says nothing at all now, is that right?
Which version of nvda have you got and has anyone fiddled with the punctuations and symbols list. I still can see bullets in windows 7 and word as far back as 2002, so it seems a bit odd. Certainly don't go messing with Office versions you could get into a deeper mess! Lets see what others think.
A log fragment of it reading over the chars might be interesting.

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Melissa Jean" <Melissa.J.Hammitt@gmail.com>
To: "nvda" <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 5:21 AM
Subject: [nvda] my regular bullets disappeared after updateing word 2010


I have Windows 10 1803 and it just updated the other day. I went to
use Word 2010 and when creating a list I went and wrote my first line
and hit enter and then went to hit tab to start a nested list. The
default for me is to go a, b, and c ... well I went to change it to
bulleted and did my normal keystrokes to change the bullet. I hit
application key, hit b to get to bullet option, and then I arrow to
the right once. When I did that NVDA reported nothing. I tried
changing the bullet to some other one (they're some amount of letters
plus a font name) and the only one that NVDA reported was the O one
that says "circle" and I don't like that one.
I went to have my mom look at it and it showed up.
I changed to JAWDS and it showed up.
I tried to change the bullet using JAWS (I love how it is an actual
bullet name instead of that jibberish) and NVDA wouldn't report any of
those different bullets either.
I didn't remember seeing this as an issue when 1803 first came out and
I'm sure I missed it, but the volume for this list and others had
gotten out of hand for me so I cut down on the amount I checked them
so I might've missed it.

I have a key for 2007 and for 2016, but I've put off updating MS
Office because of the issues I happened to see others having and 2010
worked fine for me and I didn't want to downgrade either.

Is there something I missed or is there something I can do?

Thanks


Re: NVDA with office 2019

Quentin Christensen
 

Everything in Office 2019 is either in Office 365 now, or was recently (Office 365 gets regular updates.  I don't know exactly when they stopped updating for Office 2019), so yes, Office 2019 should work just as well as Office 365 with NVDA :)

Certainly if you have any problems, do please let us know.

Regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 7:33 PM 特種兵 <afreettears@...> wrote:
hi all

   I know office 365 and office 2016 with NVDA is accessible.
   Microsoft update office to 2019 on 2018/10
   How about office 2019 with NVDA is still accessible?
   My os is win10 and NVDA 2018.4.1 and NVDA
   thanks for any advis.



--

thank you for much
Logo Kuo from Taiwan






--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Musings on recent posts: add-on writing, control labels, and others

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I mainly agree with you on attitude. If you saw the little sub chat about the attitude of programmers of applications, then I am sure you felt, as I did like shouting at Microsoft purveyor of inaccessible tools for programmers that the biggest service they could provide to get third party stuff accessible is to make the tools usable and set an example as no up and coming programmer is going to get employed if asked to use inaccessible tools.

As for paying for add ons. Well, as you say, it depends.
I'd certainly not ask somebody with no investment in accessibility to try to do a crash course and create something. That would be rather silly.

I'd prefer I think to see somebody who knows what they were doing writing it with help from somebody with a similar sight issue to the people who want it. Its normally work based software that I'd be concentrating on, as its most likely to be needed again, not just a one off and in such cases perhaps the software company should be asked to fund it, as its their shortcoming in the first place.

There are so many interested parties in accessibility, many not understanding why two bits of software that look similar can in one case work well for a blind person and in another be completely messed up. It in the end seems to boil down to education of the main population, something which is actually getting worse in my view.


Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2019 10:09 PM
Subject: [nvda] Musings on recent posts: add-on writing, control labels, and others


Hi all,



I'm starting a brand new thread in order to gather all sorts of musings
about recent messages under one roof (the very last message from someone on
mouse nav thread is akin to thread hijacking, so I'm bringing more detailed
answer here).



Before going into some musings (at least one arising out of anger), I'd like
to disclose who I am so you can better understand where I'm coming from and
the general direction of what I'll be saying below:



First, you may know me as one of the visible faces of NVDA community, or
rather, one of the slightly better known faces of assistive technology. I've
been part of this community (officially) since 2012, starting out as a new
translator. Prior to joining this community, I represented BrailleNote users
and worked together with HumanWare in some things here and there from user
side (yes, I'm the one who brought you support for BrailleNote Apex in NVDA
not long ago).



After joining the NVDA community, I began contributing my skills as a
computer science student with small things here and there. Of these, two
stand out: creation of Welcome to NVDA tutorial series in 2013, and being
the founding chair of NVDA Users and Developers Conference (NVDACon) in
March 2014. In addition, I wrote some old add-ons, including Control Usage
Assistant (end of life) and Enhanced Touch Gestures. In 2013, I became a
moderator of this very forum (back then, it was hosted somewhere else),
resigning in 2016 to focus on other activities such as add-on reviews,
school, and testing Windows 10 builds.



At the moment I'm studying communication studies at a local university,
compete in intercollegiate speech tournaments, and write and review various
community add-ons. I also help out with NVDA development from time to time,
and currently am the lead architect for a project to bring add-on updating
functionality to NVDA itself. Some of you may also know me from other lists,
such as Win10 Forum for Screen Reader Users (where I'm the owner/head list
representative) and others.



With that background out of the way: here are my thoughts on recent
messages, attitudes, and requests from a veteran NVDA user, a developer, an
add-on author and reviewer, and one of the visible faces of this community
(also as a former moderator of this very forum):



Control labels: a feature request for providing custom labels isn't new.
Having dealt with this issue myself recently (and seeing it resolved
satisfactorily), I think a hybrid approach is needed, with emphasis placed
on attitudes of vendors, not just NVDA people (the approach being trying to
persuade vendors). If I'm reading the messages correctly, there appears to
be a prevailing attitude among some third-party vendors that they should
design the user interface and then think about accessibility. I am a strong
opponent of such attitude, and would consider writing to vendors first
BEFORE asking NVDA community to do something. Recognizing labels may help,
but that's not a long-term solution - the long-term solution starts with
examination of attitudes of today's programming students, not a "late
design" discussion.



As for add-on writing: please do not treat this list as a "buy, sell,. Or
trade" list for add-on authoring jobs in the context of paying a non-user to
write an add-on for you (I'm angry and serious about this assertion). Few
reasons:

* Actual person: a "friend of yours" who you decide to pay may not
even know what exactly a "disability" is. Without being exposed to it and
willingness to be educated, that friend may not step on the right spot when
writing an add-on, let alone using NVDA.
* You: the add-on your friend may come up with may not be the answer
you're looking for. Think carefully: what is worse: not getting an add-on,
or getting something out of context?
* Community: if this kind of attitude is allowed to stay, some folks
here may think that they don't have to show any effort when it comes to
writing add-ons - you can just ask someone to write an add-on for you, and
that person happens to know nothing about disability culture at all.



The following is one add-on reviewer's note on this whole attitude: if I
find out that an add-on I'm reviewing went through this very attitude (you
pay a non-user to write an add-on and if that person isn't willing to learn
more about disability culture and attitude), then I'll make sure to put a
"red light" on my review sheet (i.e. fail the review and notify the
community. Yes, I'm serious about what I just said, because this kind of
attitude should NOT perpetuate anymore. If you have any compelling
objections, please talk to me privately.



But what if that friend of yours shows willingness to educate oneself about
disability culture and attitude? Then I think it should be examined on a
case by case basis. Then perhaps we can direct him or her to appropriate
channels to assist him or her in coming up with a solution that benefits
many people. Once it becomes time to review an add-on from that individual,
perhaps we'll provide some useful pointers and comments.



In summary, what I'm looking for is willingness to show consideration for
free will. If there's one thing that'll sustain this community, it is not
code or how many add-ons or features NVDA has - it is attitude of people.
Thus, in regards to an add-on for a video editing software, if the uneasy
attitude I described is still being perpetuated, then I'd like to turn down
your request for one for now.



Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joseph




Re: NVDA and off topic chats

 

Brian,
It's about an idea that I suggested on the chat group. We were thinking about doing a Messenger group.

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter

Em 15/02/2019 07:25, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io escreveu:

Most of us have no idea what you are on about!
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Shook" <chris0309@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 2:06 AM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and off topic chats


Martio, have you suggested that messenger thing to keep down the off topic chats yet?










Re: Some mouse navigation questions

Gene
 

You will see this discussed in terms of the Golden Cursor add-on in messages by others.  I haven't used it. 
 
What you are demonstrating, by implication, is that NVDA isn't as good in some ways for highly technical and some employment uses.  But, it should be pointed out, that for the majority of users, NVDA will meet their needs as well.  I don't know if NVDA will develop these abilities in future. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 3:09 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

Hello Jean,

 

OK, those are precise movements, but you can’t physically move the mouse up down left or right a few pixels via the keyboard.  I’ve had to do this a few times.  JAWS has better mouse control from the keyboard.  For example, go into JAWS cursor and press Alt+Shift+up, down left or right, to move the mouse by a predefined number of pixels.

 

I’ve had to do this in custom software.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 14 February 2019 22:05
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

I haven't compared this to any extent and not for a long time.  It is my impression that JAWS is set by default, or can be set, to announce more graphics, at least in certain cases and that this may matter if you are trying to click on a clickable graphic.  But I'm not sure your distinction as to where things are on screen is correct. 

 

For example, in your example, you want to click on something on the left bottom of the screen.  There are screen review commands in NVDA to move you to the top line of the currewnt navigator object and to the bottom line of the navigator object.  There are commands to move you to the first character of the line you are on and the last character.  That is, the line you are on in the navigator object.

If I want to move to the bottom line, I would use shift 9 using the desktop layout.  If I want to move to the first character, I would then use shift 1. 

 

I can't be sure if this is the kind of thing you are describing you want NVDA to do, but it sounds as though that is part of it.  One thing NVDA doesn't have is a search the screen when in screen review feature.  This is an important feature that should be added. 

 

There are times you know a certain word or phrase is on a screen in a display with no cursor.  If you want to jump to it, you can't do so now.  If there were a find command, you could.

 

Gene

 

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2019 8:42 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

Again, you misunderstand what I am saying.

If you need to click on something at the bottom left hand side of the
screen, it is easier to do this with the JAWS cursor, than any feature of
NVDA.  Window-Eyes had it best of all, because it had live mouse keys all
the time.

You can move by graphic, or by clip, for example.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Monte Single
Sent: 14 February 2019 14:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

No, I do not  think there are any visual enhancements in nvda. The name
itself says it; Non visual display access.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: February-14-19 8:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

No, this is not true.  Either can be used well with the mouse, and you've
taken what I'm saying out of context.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: 13 February 2019 17:22
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

Someone feel free to correct me if I am mistaken, but NVDA is designed so
that a low vision user can use the mouse.
JAWS, on the other hand, is strictly for someone that is totally blind.
Therefore, it would be less likely to be able to navigate by the mouse.















Re: Some mouse navigation questions

Gene
 

You can use object navigation and set NVDA not to track the cursor. 
 
The disadvantage is that a lot of people don't know, and will never learn object navigation.  But if you know how to use it, you can do this reasonably quickly. 
 
Then, there is another way.  Turn object navigation tracking off.  Move to the item you want to monitor.  Then move the object navigator to your current position.  Since you don't have tracking on, you can move wherever else you want without disturbing the position of the object navigator. 
 
Gene

From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 3:01 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

Hi,

 

Exactly that.  You can’t, in flat review mode, unrestrict the crusor, it is tied to the active window.

 

So for a simple example, if you wanted to monitor a Dropbox upload while you were doing other things, I can put the JAWS cursor on the system tray icon and just read it with a couple of keystrokes.  With NVDA, I know of no way to do that if the area you want to monitor is outside the active or focused window.  Unless of course object nav does it, but I’m not sure I can quite do that.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 14 February 2019 21:52
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

A better verbal representation when you are doing what, using the JAWS cursor?  And what makes it better.  You can set the JAWS cursor to unrestricted, which shows you not just the program window but whatever else it can see on screen.  But it isn't clear to me what you are comparing in terms of what you see and how.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2019 8:28 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

This is nothing to do with what I am saying.

I am saying that JAWS gives a better verbal representation of the screen as
laid out visually.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: 13 February 2019 17:11
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

In my experience, NVDA is a lot better at using the mouse when the screen
reader is active.
With JAWS, the mouse can be trouble. According to some sighted people I've
asked for help, the mouse doesn't go where you want it to. At least, that's
the way it was about two years ago.







Re: NVDA and off topic chats

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Most of us have no idea what you are on about!
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Shook" <chris0309@sero.email>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 2:06 AM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and off topic chats


Martio, have you suggested that messenger thing to keep down the off topic chats yet?


Re: OCR and pdfs

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes I tried out that Document channel on Seeing AI on an Iphone. its very choosey even on paper scanning. IE it often says no text recognised but moving the paper or changing the lighting can then make it read. The problem with a picture pdf is that you have a fixed image to start with, so are denied the photographic adjustments altogether.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <jmcasey@teksavvy.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2019 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OCR and pdfs


Yes.

OCR is getting better all the time, but it still has lots of limitations.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: February 14, 2019 2:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OCR and pdfs

JM Casey,
Would these restrictions apply to all screen readers and OCR?





Re: NVDA and outlook, discussion about columns in message list

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

 

Just one more question, do you know of a shortcut to collapse all threads?

 

Thanks again for all your help.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 15 February 2019 02:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and outlook, discussion about columns in message list

 

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 09:27 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

I expand a thread, and then see all of the messages in that thread.  I can’t then close the thread.

Left arrow should collapse a conversation/thread no matter what message you may be viewing in that conversation.

By the way, if I do a level one expansion (one right arrow) on a conversation it's consistently taking me to the newest read message (since all of mine are read right now) but that strongly suggests to me that my memory that it will go to the first unread message when there is one or more is correct.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: NVDA and outlook, discussion about columns in message list

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

 

I just want to say thank you for all of this.  It’s extremely helpful in the use of conversation threads in Outlook.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 15 February 2019 02:28
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and outlook, discussion about columns in message list

 

Tony,

          Use CTRL+DOWN/UP arrow to traverse through the message/conversation list if you do not wish to have conversations auto-expand as you're breezing through the message list.   

           If you're using conversation view, the read/unread for a conversation is in regard to the conversation taken as a whole.  If all messages within a conversation are read then the conversation is read.  If any single one or more messages within a conversation are unread, the conversation is considered unread.  As I don't have an unread conversation available at this moment, I can't play with one, but I seem to recall that focus will go to the first unread message in the conversation automatically when it expands, but I could be mistaken about that.  I believe there's a keyboard shortcut for moving to the next/previous read/unread messages, but I'll be darned if I can find it at the moment.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: ITunes and NVDA

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I need to use Itunes now as well, to enable me to do an Iphone back up. Its interface seems to be like the Apply Iphone one, ie nothing like Windows standard, and the problem is that you do not know what you do not know so if there aare bits nvda cannot read, how can one know?
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ján Kulik" <jan.kulik.szsle@outlook.sk>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 8:54 AM
Subject: [nvda] ITunes and NVDA


Hi all, does anyone use your iTunes on a computer with an NVDA reader? NVDA just does not announce any offers after the ALTm slider or iTunes version information. Unfortunately, I recently installed it.

Thank you for your answers.
Greetings from Slovakia


Re: Competition was Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Not sure how I feel about this myself. To me there seems to be one issue nobody mentions at all. Should we not expect every company to design software so that a manufacturers accessibility tools can work with them out of the box. The problem as you state is a catch 22 one in that we have no access experts working for software companies because we have inaccessible tools to make the software with!

I think the only real reason Jaws still is around is because of attitudes of companies who need or are forced by local laws to have accessible in house software to allow them to employ disabled people.Its expensive but if they actually sent the money they spent on Jaws scripting and the program to invest in a similar thing for nvda. it would actually be cheaper for them. It would be really nice to find as well that Jenny at Microsoft had the clout to say, you cannot release this software as its not been written using Windows API.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "erik burggraaf" <erik@erik-burggraaf.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2019 3:34 PM
Subject: Competition was Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?


The key to this situation as many have said is self-interest. As a programming student, I have a lot of computers around my house. my personal preference is for Mac, but the college is using absolutely nothing but visual studio for Windows. The complete Monopoly of visual studio in the college is extremely frustrating to me. Microsoft, for all its vaunted accessibility spending, still builds apps the way they did in the early 2000. Accessibility continues to be an afterthought despite millions of dollars spent on artificial intelligence is that are supposed to make our lives better in the future. They haven't told us how we're supposed to pay for those brand new accessibility features, when we can't get jobs because we can't get access to visual studio features and SharePoint team site. VScode accessibility is under development on Windows, though Microsoft admits, it is currently ignoring accessibility on the Mack. as a person who wants very much to develop on Mac OS, I find Microsoft limited attention to accessibility on the Mac extremely irritating. Since accessibility on Windows is only slightly better, a part of me wishes Windows would simply implode and go away. As a systems technician formerly earning my bread cleaning up viruses and security threats, I learned to revile parts of the windows computing experience.


the days of high-cost accessibility are not nearly as far behind us as we would all like to believe. customers investing thousands of dollars each overtime had a right to feel proprietary about the products they bought, even if they never saw the money they paid in. 即日factor in the extremely preferential nature of speech synthesizers and Braille displays used for screen reader output, and the politics of screen reader manufacturers, and you had a real soup of excessive loyalties. That situation still holds true today, even though there are far fewer of those high-cost screen readers than there once were. the fact is, customers are now far more in control of what they spend, and they see much more of the money, then they did in the days of expensive screen readers.

despite the idealistic belief of many learned people who ought to know better, there is very little evidence to support the idea that competition was good for screen reader manufacturers, and evidence in abundance to support the idea that it was never good. In fact it was bad. Over the last 20 years, competition in the screen reader market has been based not on quality, performance, and features, but on exclusivity agreements, and corporate litigation. accessibility continue to be an afterthought, and only the manufacturer with the right high-level access in any given situation could develop accessibility for a given product. Wait times for accessibility to off-the-shelf products could you take years. Software developers used their products to try to freeze out hardware manufacturers.

I wish Jaws would die, because it's expensive, proprietary, unnecessary, and I revile the politics of the people who develop it. Competition between nvda and Jaws is not good for customers, and it's not good for the market. obsolescence of jaws has major ramifications for companies such as Banks using old proprietary systems, but I think it would be a mistake to feel too Sorry for those types of companies. increased adoption of nvda with the right advocacy could lead to higher employment, better education and training, and better design practices for commercial software. we are all good and valuable things, not merely for blind people, but for businesses, infrastructures, economies, and society in general.

a competition between nvda and narrator may have some positive ramifications, especially on the narrator side, but the sooner freedom scientific gets out of the way, the better.

Best,

Th
erik


On February 3, 2019 9:43:12 AM "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,
here's what I don't get: Why would some users of one screen reader
actually wish for another screen reader to disappear? I can understand
when a company decides it would be somewhat cool if the competition
didn't exist. But users? Why would I, for instance, as a Mac user want
Windows to die? Wouldn't it be logical for a JAWS user to be grateful
that NVDA exists because competition improves quality?
Best,
Felix

Am So., 3. Feb. 2019 um 14:35 Uhr schrieb molly the blind tech lover
<brainardmolly@gmail.com>:

Hi.

I agree with everything you say.

I love NVDA.

I am so grateful that it exists as it has changed my life for the better. I am so grateful to all the NVDA developers and contributors.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Clare Page
Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2019 8:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



Hi!

Reading this thread about the rumours of NVDA dying, I couldn’t help thinking: would I be right in guessing that the people who mentioned this don’t use NVDA themselves? Over the years I’ve come across several users of other screenreaders who look down on NVDA for different reasons, so maybe the talk of the death of NVDA was wishful thinking on their part, hoping we’d all flock to use whatever screenreaders they have. Very cynical, I know, but I couldn’t get that thought out of my mind, that’s why I expressed it here; And no, I have no intention of being nasty to users of other screenreaders, I have simply noticed that some users of any screenreader or system, sometimes just a tiny minority, are quick to look down on anyone who doesn’t use the same thing.

However, I’m convinced that there’s plenty of life in NVDA as we discuss this: look how hard the developers are working to not only keep this screenreader alive, but also to improve it! We’re all grateful to them, I know, and I wish to add: keep up the good work! And I’m not just saying that to keep the rumour-mongers quiet, we want this excellent screenreader to keep existing for a long time to come. It may have its imperfections, every screenreader does, but it would only be worth killing off if it’s no good, and it’s exactly the opposite, an excellent way to access the Windows operating system for many blind people. Long live NVDA!

Bye for now!

From Clare



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: dimanche 3 février 2019 07:32
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



As far as I could tell, all of the people concerned were on Windows 10, not XP.



I know I'll have to shift away from 7 eventually, but hopefully not any time this year. I will when I must, but as long as the next release of NVDA will work on my Win 7 system, I'll be content.

On 3/02/2019 4:33 pm, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Those rumors were probably from who have a Windows 10 phobia. Now there are performance issues with people trying to run the latest version of NVDA on Windows XP or earlier. That is flatly stated on this and other NVDA lists and websites.



Folks, you have to move on past XP and eventually even Windows 7. I am very conservative when it comes to changing a system that works well. I had an XP system at least one of the 3 systems I own until early 2018, but I now have 2 Windows 10 systems playing perfectly with NVDA and I feel a bit better than with JAWS latest release. I still don't like JAWS identifying the Windows Explorer windows as multi select list boxes and reading every item in the displayed columns. Even with the updated scripts for Thunderbird, JAWS still seems sluggish and clunky when compared to NVDA in that program.



So there you have it--just my 2 cents.



On 2/2/2019 10:36 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

It wasn't on an NVDA skype group, just a misc one for someone's live streams where all sorts of topics come up. There were some complaints about performance issues a couple days ago, and that was where the sentiments I related were mentioned. It upset me quite a bit to hear such things...

On 3/02/2019 1:42 pm, Lino Morales wrote:

I don’t know where the hell you heard that on the Skype group. Are you on the Skype English group? I’ve not seen any such messages about NVDA going down hill since James left. Mike, Quenton, and Rafe Turner are doing a fine job down under along with the devs who are part of the NVDA add-ons community.



Sent from Mail for Windows 10



________________________________

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Sharni-Lee Ward <sharni-lee.ward@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2019 8:41:06 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?



Hi,


I haven't updated NVDA since 2018.1 due to issues that seemed to crop up
around every release. Now I'm hearing from others in a Skype group I'm a
member of that NVDA has been going downhill since Jamie left the project
and it's going to die outright soon because it can't keep up with
competition.


NVDA has been my screen-reader of choice since I discovered it in late
2011 and I don't want it to be forever lost. I can't donate right now,
and I'm not a programmer, but is there anything I can do to help? This
project has been a faithful friend to me and I want to fight for it in
any way I possibly can.


--

They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.

They ask: "How Happy are You?"

I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"







Re: Some mouse navigation questions

Steve Nutt
 

Hello Jean,

 

OK, those are precise movements, but you can’t physically move the mouse up down left or right a few pixels via the keyboard.  I’ve had to do this a few times.  JAWS has better mouse control from the keyboard.  For example, go into JAWS cursor and press Alt+Shift+up, down left or right, to move the mouse by a predefined number of pixels.

 

I’ve had to do this in custom software.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 14 February 2019 22:05
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

I haven't compared this to any extent and not for a long time.  It is my impression that JAWS is set by default, or can be set, to announce more graphics, at least in certain cases and that this may matter if you are trying to click on a clickable graphic.  But I'm not sure your distinction as to where things are on screen is correct. 

 

For example, in your example, you want to click on something on the left bottom of the screen.  There are screen review commands in NVDA to move you to the top line of the currewnt navigator object and to the bottom line of the navigator object.  There are commands to move you to the first character of the line you are on and the last character.  That is, the line you are on in the navigator object.

If I want to move to the bottom line, I would use shift 9 using the desktop layout.  If I want to move to the first character, I would then use shift 1. 

 

I can't be sure if this is the kind of thing you are describing you want NVDA to do, but it sounds as though that is part of it.  One thing NVDA doesn't have is a search the screen when in screen review feature.  This is an important feature that should be added. 

 

There are times you know a certain word or phrase is on a screen in a display with no cursor.  If you want to jump to it, you can't do so now.  If there were a find command, you could.

 

Gene

 

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2019 8:42 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

Again, you misunderstand what I am saying.

If you need to click on something at the bottom left hand side of the
screen, it is easier to do this with the JAWS cursor, than any feature of
NVDA.  Window-Eyes had it best of all, because it had live mouse keys all
the time.

You can move by graphic, or by clip, for example.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Monte Single
Sent: 14 February 2019 14:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

No, I do not  think there are any visual enhancements in nvda. The name
itself says it; Non visual display access.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: February-14-19 8:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

No, this is not true.  Either can be used well with the mouse, and you've
taken what I'm saying out of context.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: 13 February 2019 17:22
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

Someone feel free to correct me if I am mistaken, but NVDA is designed so
that a low vision user can use the mouse.
JAWS, on the other hand, is strictly for someone that is totally blind.
Therefore, it would be less likely to be able to navigate by the mouse.















Re: Some mouse navigation questions

Steve Nutt
 

Hi,

 

Exactly that.  You can’t, in flat review mode, unrestrict the crusor, it is tied to the active window.

 

So for a simple example, if you wanted to monitor a Dropbox upload while you were doing other things, I can put the JAWS cursor on the system tray icon and just read it with a couple of keystrokes.  With NVDA, I know of no way to do that if the area you want to monitor is outside the active or focused window.  Unless of course object nav does it, but I’m not sure I can quite do that.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 14 February 2019 21:52
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

A better verbal representation when you are doing what, using the JAWS cursor?  And what makes it better.  You can set the JAWS cursor to unrestricted, which shows you not just the program window but whatever else it can see on screen.  But it isn't clear to me what you are comparing in terms of what you see and how.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2019 8:28 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

This is nothing to do with what I am saying.

I am saying that JAWS gives a better verbal representation of the screen as
laid out visually.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: 13 February 2019 17:11
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

In my experience, NVDA is a lot better at using the mouse when the screen
reader is active.
With JAWS, the mouse can be trouble. According to some sighted people I've
asked for help, the mouse doesn't go where you want it to. At least, that's
the way it was about two years ago.







Re: NVDA and outlook, discussion about columns in message list

Steve Nutt
 

Hi,

 

Yes, mine doesn’t auto expand now.  I think thanks to Brian, I have tamed it.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Malykh
Sent: 14 February 2019 17:28
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and outlook, discussion about columns in message list

 

Hi Brian,

Thank you for your response. I am using Outlook 16 as well.

Actually, I was playing with Outlook more, and I have one more question for you. Is there a way to stop threads from auto expanding when you arrow down or up through them? This was I believe the most annoying feature that I couldn't turn off by myself. Because if all the threads auto-expand on you, it kind of defies the whole purpose of collapsing them in the first place.

It's good to know about two-step expand, I will keep it in mind. As for conversation settings menu, I believe I was  aware of it, still I couldn't configure Outlook to my liking - see my point above.

Thanks!

Tony

 

 

On 2/13/2019 2:19 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Tony,

            In regard to your biggest complaint, I may have an answer, or something that can help.  Outlook 2016, in default mode, has a 2-step expand for a conversation when it's collapsed, and it's meant to be a convenience but I can see how it might not be.  If you're on a collapsed conversation and right arrow once to expand it, the first level expansion will only show messages in the conversation that originated from a sender or senders other than you.  Your own responses are not included in level one expansion.  If you hit right arrow twice, the conversation is fully expanded with your own responses (which are actually in the Sent folder) shown embedded in their correct place(s) in the conversation.  In level two (full) expansion up and down arrows behave as you think they should.

             You may also find that tweaking the Conversation Settings may get you the results you wish, but I'm not sure what combination would suit you best.  That's for you to play with.  To change conversation view:

  1. ALT+V,CS   (View Ribbon, Conversation Settings)
  2. There are 4 options under here, each of which is a toggle, and I'll give the letter you'd hit to change the state (and the default state):

                    S Show messages from other folders [and see my note above about level 2 expansion]   Default:  ON
                    A Show senders above the subject     Default:  ON
                    X Always expand selected conversation    Default OFF    Note well - it's a selected conversation, not one you happen to be arrowing up or down over
                    I  Use classic indented view



--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Some mouse navigation questions

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

 

I’m sorry I have to disagree with one thing you said, whether you’re sighted or not.  You said:-

 

Mind you, NVDA without using Focus Assist is not much better.   And, of course, for an actual screen reader user who cannot see the screen what is visually presented is completely irrelevant.

 

This is of course, complete nonsense.  When you interact with support staff on a piece of software which is not access related, you often need visual cues if you can’t see the screen.  I am totally blind.

 

All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 14 February 2019 15:40
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 09:28 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

I am saying that JAWS gives a better verbal representation of the screen as
laid out visually.

I shall simply have to say that I disagree, and vehemently, with this.   As a sighted tutor for JAWS the way that JAWS interacts with the actual screen (and does not track where it is on the screen by default as it traverses the virtual buffer) makes it maddening for a sighted person trying to assist live.  You can be in a position that one would have to be visually scrolled way below what JAWS actually allows to stay on the screen and the sighted assistant has no idea whatsoever what it's working with.

Mind you, NVDA without using Focus Assist is not much better.   And, of course, for an actual screen reader user who cannot see the screen what is visually presented is completely irrelevant.

That being said, in the real world a blind user, particularly in an office/business setting, is frequently going to be collaborating with sighted people.  I have never understood why screen reader developers did/do not take that into account and make any screen reader software track on-screen what it's interacting with in the virtual buffer.  It doesn't matter whether that's of benefit to the blind user 99% of the time, it really needs to be there for practical reasons for interacting with those of us with sight who collaborate with screen reader users.

I can also say that the Focus Assist add-on is by far and away the best thing I've encountered not only for allowing a sighted person to know where the screen reader has focus, but also the kind of focus it has at the moment (which many won't understand, at least at first, but we can figure it out).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


ITunes and NVDA

Ján Kulik
 

Hi all, does anyone use your iTunes on a computer with an NVDA reader? NVDA just does not announce any offers after the ALTm slider or iTunes version information. Unfortunately, I recently installed it.
 
Thank you for your answers.
Greetings from Slovakia


NVDA with office 2019

特種兵
 

hi all

  I know office 365 and office 2016 with NVDA is accessible.
  Microsoft update office to 2019 on 2018/10
  How about office 2019 with NVDA is still accessible?
  My os is win10 and NVDA 2018.4.1 and NVDA
  thanks for any advis.



--

thank you for much
Logo Kuo from Taiwan


Instances of redundancy

Felix G.
 

Hi!
I am noticing that, when typing into the Youtube search field, for
every character I type, NVDA will repeat the name of the search field
followed by its current contents.
Also, in Chrome's address bar, when an automatic suggestion is
detected, that same auto suggestion is repeated every time I type an
additional character still matching the same suggestion.
Over time I find my concentration suffers when my audio input is
overloaded with all that stuttering. Is there a constellation of
settings which would minimize that kind of redundancy while still
keeping track of changes? I've experimented with the document and
browse mode settings but haven't come up with anything useful thus
far.
In addition, I am noticing that in colsole windows, the same text is
often spoken multiple times, even if both character and word echo are
turned off. It sounds a bit like this:
Peter, Paul and. Peter, Paul and Mary were sitting. Sitting in the.
Sitting in the kitchen.
As a programmer I need to be sure what my console is doing or not
doing. Is there a way to make this behave reliably in this most basic
of scenarios? I wouldn't be complaining if this were a complex gui,
but we're talking about simple text-mode console here.
All the best, looking forward to everyone's friendly advice,
Felix