Date   

Re: NVDA and ribbon menues

Brice Mijares
 

Yes, it would be nice if someone would offer up an audio tutorial on the ribbon. Personally I fine it easier it I can follow along with a audio tutorial.


notifications in Windows 10 version 1809

Annette Moore
 

Hi, all. Could someone please remind me what the new shortcut key is to cycle through notifications in windows 10 version 1809? thanks so much! Oh, and speaking of notifications, if you find that you aren't receiving them in 1809, here's a link I hope will be helpful. It was for me:


How to fix Action Center notifications not working on Windows 10 version 1809

https://pureinfotech.com/fix-action-center-notifications-not-working-windows-10-1809/


Re: NVDA and ribbon menues

Gene
 

First, I am not speaking as a moderator and it is inaccurate and incorrect to imply that I am.  I disagreed about ribbons long before I was a moderator and, unless I send a message to the list on a moderation matter and speak as a moderator, I am speaking as a member. 
 
If I were just discussing the subject with one person, I wouldn't keep debating.  What one person thinks in discussion is what one person thinks.  But I'm not going off on you to go off on you..  I am strongly disagreeing and the reason I do is because I don't know how many of other hundreds of people may be reading the comments.  There needs to be a balance that will let people know that ribbons are being used successfully by a lot of blind people so that the negative comments don't discourage learning.  That's why I argue with Brian.  As one person, he may think whatever he likes and I wouldn't keep discussing it.  But messages discussing how bad or difficult to use something is on a large list may discourage use and a lot of blind people are already very disposed against ribbons and don't want to try them. 
 
Remember when the transition to Windows from Dos took place?  What about all the massive resistance to Windows there was?  Where is it now? 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues

I don't complain about the ribbons any more because it usually creates
such an intense and useless discussion that the moderator goes off on me
and I almost get mad enough to say something that will get me banned
permanently.



On 11/2/2018 7:19 PM, Antony Stone wrote:
> Um, "people are more likely to complain if they dislike something"...
>
> Well, of course - you wouldn't expect them to complain if they like it, would
> you?
>
>
> Antony.
>
> On Saturday 03 November 2018 at 00:14:34, Gene wrote:
>
>> If they are so hated, then see the following discussion and account for the
>> fact that I read perhaps thirty messages in the thread and no one objects
>> to ribbons.  Microsoft is changing the design of ribbons in the Office
>> Suite.  They are simplifying them in some way.  In this discussion, some
>> people don't like the change, some people think it should be optional and
>> some people like it.  But in all the messages I read, not one person
>> objected to ribbons themselves.
>>
>> Also, people are more likely to complain if they dislike something.  Of
>> course some people don't like ribbons, but your sample, some friends or
>> people you know, isn't eeven remotely a proper survey from which to draw
>> such conclusions.
>>
>> I assume by saying it is hated, and it was hated that you mean most people
>> hate ribbons.  That is not a properly supported statement.
>> https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/Office-365/Outlook-365-Ribbon-etc/t
>> d-p/267706
>>
>> Also, a lot of other programs are nowhere nearly as complex as the programs
>> in the Office Suite.  So, since people don't like change and since there
>> isn't much benefit to switching to ribbons this wasn't done.  You don't
>> know what might have happened if most programs were this complex.  The
>> ribbon allows the user to see a lot more items much more quickly and
>> efficiently.  So your argument about other programs not adopting ribbons
>> is not properly supported as to why this is the case.  More simple
>> programs don't benefit and why change something when there is no benefit
>> are much better explanations than a putative universal or nearly universal
>> hatred of ribbons.
>>
>> I'm saying they are much better explanations without proper evidence
>> supporting any conclusion.  If you can find proper good supporting
>> evidence for your assertion, that's different but as of now, your
>> statements are unsupported and appear to be incorrect.
>>
>> Gene
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
>> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 3:23 PM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues
>>
>>
>> It started on Word 2007. It was hated then, it is hated now, and you seldom
>> see any third party software using a Ribbon, even the latest Firefox is
>> using  old style menus.
>>   Just cos they are so dogmatic in not wanting to offer an option when its
>> clearly possible is no reason to accept it.
>>   Brian
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@...>
>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 6:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues
>>
>> Hi, Brian V,
>>
>> I couldn't agree more. The ribbon has been around since 2007. I think
>> that's correct but if I'm wrong, someone please jump in and correct me. We
>> have to learn to roll with the punches as they say or get left out in the
>> cold so to speak.
>>
>>
>> Rosemarie
>>
>>
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian
>> Vogel
>> Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 6:19 AM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 04:36 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
>>
>> Embrace the ribbon,
>>
>> It's been around for over a decade now.  It is the Microsoft standard.  The
>> endless fight against the ribbon makes no sense; learning to work with the
>> computing environment, as presented, does.

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




Re: NVDA and ribbon menues

Antony Stone
 

Regarding people more likely to express an opinion when they dislike
something, yes, I agree completely. I guess it's reasonable to assume that's
what Gene meant to say.

However, regarding praise versus criticism, your point that "most people say
little to nothing at all if everything is 'just fine as it is but isn't
exceptional in any way'" is all well and good, but I think it's just as true
to say that "most people say little to nothing at all if everything is 'not
very good but isn't particularly bad in any way'".

In other words, if things are more or less acceptable; only just a bit better
or worse than people expect, would like, or are used to, then they won't say
much, if anything.

But I do think that people praise improvements just as much as they complain
about things getting worse. Internet support forums are not the place to look
for that praise, however - and the clue is in the name - people don't look for
support when they like what they have; they look for support when they have a
problem.

Praise is for more likely to go directly back to the suppliers / developers,
so aside from the "satisfied customer" quotes you see on a lot of websites,
such comments simply don't get publicised on the Internet to the same extent
that the complaints on public forums do.

None of this means it's okay to ignore the people who are saying "this is a
change for the worse", though. Developers can do what they want, but if it's
not what the users want, who wins and who loses as a result?


Antony.

On Saturday 03 November 2018 at 00:25:19, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 07:19 PM, Antony Stone wrote:
Um, "people are more likely to complain if they dislike something"...
Well, I interpreted this as, "People are more likely to express an opinion
if they dislike something," which, given my 55 plus years of life
experience, holds true.

While you may get the occasional effusive praise if someone likes
something, most people say little to nothing at all if everything is "just
fine as it is but isn't exceptional in any way."

Having haunted support forums of various types for decades now, you'd be
convinced that nothing ever works as expected and designed if one were to
take the tenor of most posts there as one's only sample set. Things skew
negative in those venues since people are having issues and that's why
they turn to them.
--

Brian
--
"Can you keep a secret?"
"Well, I shouldn't really tell you this, but... no."


Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


Re: NVDA and ribbon menues

Ron Canazzi
 

I don't complain about the ribbons any more because it usually creates such an intense and useless discussion that the moderator goes off on me and I almost get mad enough to say something that will get me banned permanently.

On 11/2/2018 7:19 PM, Antony Stone wrote:
Um, "people are more likely to complain if they dislike something"...

Well, of course - you wouldn't expect them to complain if they like it, would
you?


Antony.

On Saturday 03 November 2018 at 00:14:34, Gene wrote:

If they are so hated, then see the following discussion and account for the
fact that I read perhaps thirty messages in the thread and no one objects
to ribbons. Microsoft is changing the design of ribbons in the Office
Suite. They are simplifying them in some way. In this discussion, some
people don't like the change, some people think it should be optional and
some people like it. But in all the messages I read, not one person
objected to ribbons themselves.

Also, people are more likely to complain if they dislike something. Of
course some people don't like ribbons, but your sample, some friends or
people you know, isn't eeven remotely a proper survey from which to draw
such conclusions.

I assume by saying it is hated, and it was hated that you mean most people
hate ribbons. That is not a properly supported statement.
https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/Office-365/Outlook-365-Ribbon-etc/t
d-p/267706

Also, a lot of other programs are nowhere nearly as complex as the programs
in the Office Suite. So, since people don't like change and since there
isn't much benefit to switching to ribbons this wasn't done. You don't
know what might have happened if most programs were this complex. The
ribbon allows the user to see a lot more items much more quickly and
efficiently. So your argument about other programs not adopting ribbons
is not properly supported as to why this is the case. More simple
programs don't benefit and why change something when there is no benefit
are much better explanations than a putative universal or nearly universal
hatred of ribbons.

I'm saying they are much better explanations without proper evidence
supporting any conclusion. If you can find proper good supporting
evidence for your assertion, that's different but as of now, your
statements are unsupported and appear to be incorrect.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 3:23 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


It started on Word 2007. It was hated then, it is hated now, and you seldom
see any third party software using a Ribbon, even the latest Firefox is
using old style menus.
Just cos they are so dogmatic in not wanting to offer an option when its
clearly possible is no reason to accept it.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues

Hi, Brian V,

I couldn't agree more. The ribbon has been around since 2007. I think
that's correct but if I'm wrong, someone please jump in and correct me. We
have to learn to roll with the punches as they say or get left out in the
cold so to speak.


Rosemarie


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian
Vogel
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 6:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 04:36 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:

Embrace the ribbon,

It's been around for over a decade now. It is the Microsoft standard. The
endless fight against the ribbon makes no sense; learning to work with the
computing environment, as presented, does.
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: NVDA and ribbon menues

Don H
 

I believe I am the one that started this thread.  All I asked for was a little help in learning how to use ribbons effectively.  I don't believe I said that they were bad or good just a new trick to teach a old dog like me.  I actually like the challenge of learning something new but in my old age get flustrated a little faster when something seems to be more difficult than it should.


Re: NVDA and ribbon menues

 

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 07:19 PM, Antony Stone wrote:
Um, "people are more likely to complain if they dislike something"...
Well, I interpreted this as, "People are more likely to express an opinion if they dislike something," which, given my 55 plus years of life experience, holds true.

While you may get the occasional effusive praise if someone likes something, most people say little to nothing at all if everything is "just fine as it is but isn't exceptional in any way."

Having haunted support forums of various types for decades now, you'd be convinced that nothing ever works as expected and designed if one were to take the tenor of most posts there as one's only sample set.  Things skew negative in those venues since people are having issues and that's why they turn to them.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

The terrible state of public education has paid huge dividends in ignorance.  Huge.  We now have a country that can be told blatant lies — easily checkable, blatant lies — and I’m not talking about the covert workings of the CIA. When we have a terrorist attack, on September 11, 2001 with 19 men — 15 of them are Saudis — and five minutes later the whole country thinks they’re from Iraq — how can you have faith in the public? This is an easily checkable fact. The whole country is like the O.J. Simpson jurors.

      ~ Fran Lebowitz in Ruminator Magazine interview with Susannah McNeely (Aug/Sept 2005)

 

 


Re: NVDA and ribbon menues

Gene
 

My point is that Brian said that many people he knows complain about ribbons.  I'm saying that if you look at discussions online or discuss matters with people, people are more likely to complain about things they don't like.  So you can't say, lots of people are complaining so most people don't like something.  They may or may not.  Lots of complaining may be because most people don't like something.  It may also seem that the majority don't like something because more people complain about things they don't like than praise things they do. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues

Um, "people are more likely to complain if they dislike something"...

Well, of course - you wouldn't expect them to complain if they like it, would
you?


Antony.

On Saturday 03 November 2018 at 00:14:34, Gene wrote:

> If they are so hated, then see the following discussion and account for the
> fact that I read perhaps thirty messages in the thread and no one objects
> to ribbons.  Microsoft is changing the design of ribbons in the Office
> Suite.  They are simplifying them in some way.  In this discussion, some
> people don't like the change, some people think it should be optional and
> some people like it.  But in all the messages I read, not one person
> objected to ribbons themselves.
>
> Also, people are more likely to complain if they dislike something.  Of
> course some people don't like ribbons, but your sample, some friends or
> people you know, isn't eeven remotely a proper survey from which to draw
> such conclusions.
>
> I assume by saying it is hated, and it was hated that you mean most people
> hate ribbons.  That is not a properly supported statement.
> https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/Office-365/Outlook-365-Ribbon-etc/t
> d-p/267706
>
> Also, a lot of other programs are nowhere nearly as complex as the programs
> in the Office Suite.  So, since people don't like change and since there
> isn't much benefit to switching to ribbons this wasn't done.  You don't
> know what might have happened if most programs were this complex.  The
> ribbon allows the user to see a lot more items much more quickly and
> efficiently.  So your argument about other programs not adopting ribbons
> is not properly supported as to why this is the case.  More simple
> programs don't benefit and why change something when there is no benefit
> are much better explanations than a putative universal or nearly universal
> hatred of ribbons.
>
> I'm saying they are much better explanations without proper evidence
> supporting any conclusion.  If you can find proper good supporting
> evidence for your assertion, that's different but as of now, your
> statements are unsupported and appear to be incorrect.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 3:23 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues
>
>
> It started on Word 2007. It was hated then, it is hated now, and you seldom
> see any third party software using a Ribbon, even the latest Firefox is
> using  old style menus.
>  Just cos they are so dogmatic in not wanting to offer an option when its
> clearly possible is no reason to accept it.
>  Brian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 6:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues
>
> Hi, Brian V,
>
> I couldn't agree more. The ribbon has been around since 2007. I think
> that's correct but if I'm wrong, someone please jump in and correct me. We
> have to learn to roll with the punches as they say or get left out in the
> cold so to speak.
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian
> Vogel
> Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 6:19 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues
>
> On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 04:36 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
>
> Embrace the ribbon,
>
> It's been around for over a decade now.  It is the Microsoft standard.  The
> endless fight against the ribbon makes no sense; learning to work with the
> computing environment, as presented, does.

--
I wasn't sure about having a beard at first, but then it grew on me.

                                                   Please reply to the list;
                                                         please *don't* CC me.



Re: NVDA and ribbon menues

Antony Stone
 

Um, "people are more likely to complain if they dislike something"...

Well, of course - you wouldn't expect them to complain if they like it, would
you?


Antony.

On Saturday 03 November 2018 at 00:14:34, Gene wrote:

If they are so hated, then see the following discussion and account for the
fact that I read perhaps thirty messages in the thread and no one objects
to ribbons. Microsoft is changing the design of ribbons in the Office
Suite. They are simplifying them in some way. In this discussion, some
people don't like the change, some people think it should be optional and
some people like it. But in all the messages I read, not one person
objected to ribbons themselves.

Also, people are more likely to complain if they dislike something. Of
course some people don't like ribbons, but your sample, some friends or
people you know, isn't eeven remotely a proper survey from which to draw
such conclusions.

I assume by saying it is hated, and it was hated that you mean most people
hate ribbons. That is not a properly supported statement.
https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/Office-365/Outlook-365-Ribbon-etc/t
d-p/267706

Also, a lot of other programs are nowhere nearly as complex as the programs
in the Office Suite. So, since people don't like change and since there
isn't much benefit to switching to ribbons this wasn't done. You don't
know what might have happened if most programs were this complex. The
ribbon allows the user to see a lot more items much more quickly and
efficiently. So your argument about other programs not adopting ribbons
is not properly supported as to why this is the case. More simple
programs don't benefit and why change something when there is no benefit
are much better explanations than a putative universal or nearly universal
hatred of ribbons.

I'm saying they are much better explanations without proper evidence
supporting any conclusion. If you can find proper good supporting
evidence for your assertion, that's different but as of now, your
statements are unsupported and appear to be incorrect.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 3:23 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


It started on Word 2007. It was hated then, it is hated now, and you seldom
see any third party software using a Ribbon, even the latest Firefox is
using old style menus.
Just cos they are so dogmatic in not wanting to offer an option when its
clearly possible is no reason to accept it.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues

Hi, Brian V,

I couldn't agree more. The ribbon has been around since 2007. I think
that's correct but if I'm wrong, someone please jump in and correct me. We
have to learn to roll with the punches as they say or get left out in the
cold so to speak.


Rosemarie


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian
Vogel
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 6:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 04:36 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:

Embrace the ribbon,

It's been around for over a decade now. It is the Microsoft standard. The
endless fight against the ribbon makes no sense; learning to work with the
computing environment, as presented, does.
--
I wasn't sure about having a beard at first, but then it grew on me.

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


Re: [EXTERNAL] - Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues

Gene
 

How do you work with ribbons?  Do you use the short cut sequences in both ribbons and menus? 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] - Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues

I have found that I can do alright with the ribbons, but I find the speed of working with old style menus much better. 

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 4:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [EXTERNAL] - Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues

Not noticed it myself. But it is my view and yours is yours. I merely point at other pieces of software not by Microsoft.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


You have a problem, as you said .  Most people learn ribbons without a lot of trouble.  It may take them a little time but if taught properly, they don't find them a major problem.  You are discouraging people from learning ribbons.

I am skeptical and suspicious of ribbon removing programs.  I suspect you lose functionality when you try to force one interface to become another interface.  I hope people comment on that.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 3:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


This is a huge can of worms. I personally feel that they are dire for blind users, but some people on here think that once you grasp the concept they are in fact easy.
 Its a classic case of the way your brain visualises the concepts.
 I did notice Jaws can be set to pretend they are normal menus, but my feeling here is that since you can use a simple add on to alter them  ie ribbon remover, then I see no reason why Microsoft do not offer the themselves, but in a recent interview with Jenny at Microsoft she merely said, Embrace the ribbon, which I took to mean  they are dogmatically against it.
 Bah humbug I say.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don H" <lmddh50@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2018 6:46 PM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


> Running latest NVDA and Win 10 1809.
>
> The old addage of teaching a old dog new tricks fits this situation.
> Having great difficulty in using the ribbon while in file explorer.
> Are there any tutorials as how to use such ribbons?
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>










Caution: This email originated from outside of Roxbury Community College. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.




Re: NVDA and ribbon menues

Gene
 

If they are so hated, then see the following discussion and account for the fact that I read perhaps thirty messages in the thread and no one objects to ribbons.  Microsoft is changing the design of ribbons in the Office Suite.  They are simplifying them in some way.  In this discussion, some people don't like the change, some people think it should be optional and some people like it.  But in all the messages I read, not one person objected to ribbons themselves.
 
Also, people are more likely to complain if they dislike something.  Of course some people don't like ribbons, but your sample, some friends or people you know, isn't eeven remotely a proper survey from which to draw such conclusions. 
 
I assume by saying it is hated, and it was hated that you mean most people hate ribbons.  That is not a properly supported statement.
 
Also, a lot of other programs are nowhere nearly as complex as the programs in the Office Suite.  So, since people don't like change and since there isn't much benefit to switching to ribbons this wasn't done.  You don't know what might have happened if most programs were this complex.  The ribbon allows the user to see a lot more items much more quickly and efficiently.  So your argument about other programs not adopting ribbons is not properly supported as to why this is the case.  More simple programs don't benefit and why change something when there is no benefit are much better explanations than a putative universal or nearly universal hatred of ribbons.
 
I'm saying they are much better explanations without proper evidence supporting any conclusion.  If you can find proper good supporting evidence for your assertion, that's different but as of now, your statements are unsupported and appear to be incorrect.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues

It started on Word 2007. It was hated then, it is hated now, and you seldom
see any third party software using a Ribbon, even the latest Firefox is
using  old style menus.
 Just cos they are so dogmatic in not wanting to offer an option when its
clearly possible is no reason to accept it.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


Hi, Brian V,



I couldn't agree more. The ribbon has been around since 2007. I think that's
correct but if I'm wrong, someone please jump in and correct me. We have to
learn to roll with the punches as they say or get left out in the cold so to
speak.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian
Vogel
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 6:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues



On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 04:36 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:

Embrace the ribbon,

It's been around for over a decade now.  It is the Microsoft standard.  The
endless fight against the ribbon makes no sense; learning to work with the
computing environment, as presented, does.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

The terrible state of public education has paid huge dividends in ignorance.
Huge.  We now have a country that can be told blatant lies — easily
checkable, blatant lies — and I’m not talking about the covert workings of
the CIA. When we have a terrorist attack, on September 11, 2001 with 19
men — 15 of them are Saudis — and five minutes later the whole country
thinks they’re from Iraq — how can you have faith in the public? This is an
easily checkable fact. The whole country is like the O.J. Simpson jurors.

      ~ Fran Lebowitz in Ruminator Magazine interview with Susannah McNeely
(Aug/Sept 2005)














Re: Not able to open pdf file

Mallard
 

Oh, don't tell me! It's driving me crazy! But it's the only way to download ebooks from our public libraries here. I wish they made a better job of tehse epub's, forgetting about Adobe DRM, but I'm a fraid we'll have to live with it for many years to come.

Ciao,

Ollie

Il 02/11/2018 21:36, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Oh that piece of software has never behaved for me at any time it tends to lock, fall out of itself or just be very slow.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mallard" <mallard@kimabe.eu>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Not able to open pdf file


No, not my problem. I use Qread, edge or even Chrome for pdf files. My
problem is with Adobe Digital Editions, which doesn't seem to be able to
open acsm files to download teh actual ebooks with NVDA lately.


Ciao,

Ollie





Il 02/11/2018 18:27, Kerryn Gunness via Groups.Io ha scritto:
you all can use acrobat reader DC

----- Original Message ----- From: "Mallard" <mallard@kimabe.eu>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Not able to open pdf file


Adobe seems to have all sorts of issues these days. I have the same
problems with Adobe Digital Editions...

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 02/11/2018 16:13, farhan israk ha scritto:

Adobe reader shows not responding.


On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 7:51 pm Sylvie Duchateau <sduchateau@access42.net <mailto:sduchateau@access42.net> wrote:




Hello,
Can you explain what happens when you open the PDF file with NVDA?
You press enter on the file and nothing happens?
If you open it with Jaws, then you try to read it with NVDA, is
there a difference?
Best
Sylvie
Le 02/11/2018 à 14:47, farhan israk a écrit :

I use Windows 10 1803, jaws 18, nvda 2018.3.2 and latest adobe
reader. When I use nvda then I can't open pdf file. But, when I
use jaws then I can open pdf file. How to fix it?












Re: Automatically converting EPUB to EPUB3

Mallard
 

Actually, I've never heard of teh possibility to convert epub to epub3, but maybe it's possible with a specific software, which would add audio from a synth. The problem, though, is that it should be synced as well.

But I have no idea how you do that.

Also because epub3 files are usually huge...

Now I'm curious, and I'll start searching to see if this is possible at all.

Ciao,

Ollie

Il 02/11/2018 22:28, Antony Stone ha scritto:
So, if you're starting from ePub, which has only text, where do you get the
audio from, to "convert" this to ePub 3?

That sounds like more than just a conversion process to me - it's like saying
you can convert some (text) song lyrics into a karaoke file. Yes, there's
software you can use to do this, but it's way more than just a "conversion".

Antony.

On Friday 02 November 2018 at 18:12:43, Mallard wrote:

Travis,


epub3 is a special type of file, where you have audio and text that can
be synched, for instance, for dyslexic readers.


I guess that's the reason why one would want to convert epub's to epub3's.

Ciao,

Ollie

Il 02/11/2018 16:43, Travis Siegel ha scritto:
I've never heard of epub3. If the files are already epub, why do you
need to convert them to anything else? Epub files are perfectly
accessible all by themselves.

But, to answer your question, as far as I know, it is relatively easy
to get calibre to convert to any format you like by default. Just set
the epub3 to your default format, then any file you copy into it's
startup folder will automaticlaly be converted into epub3. It's been
quite a while since I've played around with calibre, so I don't know
the exact steps for setting formats and automatic conversions and
such, but it is possible, and folks do this sort of thing all the time.

On 11/2/2018 3:49 AM, Sociohack AC wrote:
Hello group!
An NGO in my locality provides visually impaired people with free
newspapers in EPUB3 format. They use a software called Calibre to
download the newspaper and convert it to EPUB, it then has to be
converted to EPUB3. It is her they face difficulty, they have to do
it manually and they don't have the adequate staff. Can this process
be automated? Can EPUB files be converted to EPUB 3 automatically?

All suggestion and shared experiences are welcome.


Re: NVDA and ribbon menues

 

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 04:23 PM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Just cos they are so dogmatic in not wanting to offer an option when its clearly possible is no reason to accept it.
Uh, yes, it is.   If you think that Microsoft, or any software maker, that's been using the same UI for over a decade is going to change it because some small minority hates it then I have some oceanfront property in Omaha to offer you.

Don Quixote showed more common sense than those that still rail against the ribbon interface rather than learning how to use it.  It's just a menu that works slightly differently.

And this is coming from someone who did, and still does, like conventional menus better.  I just know that the ribbon ship sailed, and sailed long ago.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

The terrible state of public education has paid huge dividends in ignorance.  Huge.  We now have a country that can be told blatant lies — easily checkable, blatant lies — and I’m not talking about the covert workings of the CIA. When we have a terrorist attack, on September 11, 2001 with 19 men — 15 of them are Saudis — and five minutes later the whole country thinks they’re from Iraq — how can you have faith in the public? This is an easily checkable fact. The whole country is like the O.J. Simpson jurors.

      ~ Fran Lebowitz in Ruminator Magazine interview with Susannah McNeely (Aug/Sept 2005)

 

 


Re: Automatically converting EPUB to EPUB3

Antony Stone
 

So, if you're starting from ePub, which has only text, where do you get the
audio from, to "convert" this to ePub 3?

That sounds like more than just a conversion process to me - it's like saying
you can convert some (text) song lyrics into a karaoke file. Yes, there's
software you can use to do this, but it's way more than just a "conversion".

Antony.

On Friday 02 November 2018 at 18:12:43, Mallard wrote:

Travis,


epub3 is a special type of file, where you have audio and text that can
be synched, for instance, for dyslexic readers.


I guess that's the reason why one would want to convert epub's to epub3's.

Ciao,

Ollie

Il 02/11/2018 16:43, Travis Siegel ha scritto:
I've never heard of epub3. If the files are already epub, why do you
need to convert them to anything else? Epub files are perfectly
accessible all by themselves.

But, to answer your question, as far as I know, it is relatively easy
to get calibre to convert to any format you like by default. Just set
the epub3 to your default format, then any file you copy into it's
startup folder will automaticlaly be converted into epub3. It's been
quite a while since I've played around with calibre, so I don't know
the exact steps for setting formats and automatic conversions and
such, but it is possible, and folks do this sort of thing all the time.

On 11/2/2018 3:49 AM, Sociohack AC wrote:
Hello group!
An NGO in my locality provides visually impaired people with free
newspapers in EPUB3 format. They use a software called Calibre to
download the newspaper and convert it to EPUB, it then has to be
converted to EPUB3. It is her they face difficulty, they have to do
it manually and they don't have the adequate staff. Can this process
be automated? Can EPUB files be converted to EPUB 3 automatically?

All suggestion and shared experiences are welcome.
--
This email was created using 100% recycled electrons.

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


Re: Help Please NVDA With Spybot Cont.

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Are we sure its not UAC that is causing this, half the time this alert seems not to speak. I got so annoyed I turned it off.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Help Please NVDA With Spybot Cont.


There is a feature called secure desktop in Windows 10 that you will have to turn off. I don't know more than that. I don't use Windows 10.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: David Russell
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 10:25 AM
To: nvda
Subject: [nvda] Help Please NVDA With Spybot Cont.


Hello again,

Brian and all, thanks for the input thus far. Let me try and walk you
through what happens.
- I go to the link you provided and press enter on the Spybot Free Edition.
- At the appropriate juncture, I press enter on download and enter on save.
- I then go to the desktop, go to my download folder, find the Spybot
file, press enter, and press enter on run to set up.
It is there, that NVDA says something to the effect, Desktop secured.
Nothing happens after waiting several moments.
Yes, I am sure files delete from the download folder when deleted.
I will get a number stating files remaining.
There must be a setting in FireFox preventing me from running a setup,
but do not have an idea what it would be. Any clues?
I assume the file downloads because it is in the download folder. Thanks again.

--
David Russell
david.sonofhashem@gmail.com


Re: Not able to open pdf file

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Oh that piece of software has never behaved for me at any time it tends to lock, fall out of itself or just be very slow.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mallard" <mallard@kimabe.eu>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Not able to open pdf file


No, not my problem. I use Qread, edge or even Chrome for pdf files. My
problem is with Adobe Digital Editions, which doesn't seem to be able to
open acsm files to download teh actual ebooks with NVDA lately.


Ciao,

Ollie





Il 02/11/2018 18:27, Kerryn Gunness via Groups.Io ha scritto:
you all can use acrobat reader DC

----- Original Message ----- From: "Mallard" <mallard@kimabe.eu>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Not able to open pdf file


Adobe seems to have all sorts of issues these days. I have the same
problems with Adobe Digital Editions...

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 02/11/2018 16:13, farhan israk ha scritto:

Adobe reader shows not responding.


On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 7:51 pm Sylvie Duchateau <sduchateau@access42.net <mailto:sduchateau@access42.net> wrote:




Hello,
Can you explain what happens when you open the PDF file with NVDA?
You press enter on the file and nothing happens?
If you open it with Jaws, then you try to read it with NVDA, is
there a difference?
Best
Sylvie
Le 02/11/2018 à 14:47, farhan israk a écrit :

I use Windows 10 1803, jaws 18, nvda 2018.3.2 and latest adobe
reader. When I use nvda then I can't open pdf file. But, when I
use jaws then I can open pdf file. How to fix it?







Re: Not able to open pdf file

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes I think most of us do. I also sometimes use the accessible pdf reader from webbie as well if its mostly textual and not needing any formatting.
To me too many pdf files these days are pictures or not tagged for changes in reading order, but this is the first time I've heard of things locking up like this. It might be interesting to see the part of a log when adobe acrobat is opened by the file.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "farhan israk" <fahim.net.2014@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Not able to open pdf file


I use acrobat reader dc

On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 11:27 pm Kerryn Gunness via Groups.Io <k_gunness=
yahoo.ca@groups.io wrote:

you all can use acrobat reader DC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mallard" <mallard@kimabe.eu>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Not able to open pdf file


Adobe seems to have all sorts of issues these days. I have the same
problems with Adobe Digital Editions...

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 02/11/2018 16:13, farhan israk ha scritto:

Adobe reader shows not responding.


On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 7:51 pm Sylvie Duchateau <sduchateau@access42.net
<mailto:sduchateau@access42.net> wrote:




Hello,
Can you explain what happens when you open the PDF file with NVDA?
You press enter on the file and nothing happens?
If you open it with Jaws, then you try to read it with NVDA, is
there a difference?
Best
Sylvie
Le 02/11/2018 à 14:47, farhan israk a écrit :

I use Windows 10 1803, jaws 18, nvda 2018.3.2 and latest adobe
reader. When I use nvda then I can't open pdf file. But, when I
use jaws then I can open pdf file. How to fix it?







Re: Not able to open pdf file

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Can it open small pdf files or is this on all files?
I was thinking about a ticket about some backends recently changed causing firefox to crash, and wondered if it affected Adobe as well. Certainly I've seen no difference between jaws and nvda on windows 7, but I'm assuming you are not using an Alpha snap of nvda which might be where this has happened.
If you use a portable version of nvda does the same issue occur?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "farhan israk" <fahim.net.2014@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Not able to open pdf file


Adobe reader shows not responding.

On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 7:51 pm Sylvie Duchateau <sduchateau@access42.net wrote:





Hello,
Can you explain what happens when you open the PDF file with NVDA?
You press enter on the file and nothing happens?
If you open it with Jaws, then you try to read it with NVDA, is there a
difference?
Best
Sylvie
Le 02/11/2018 à 14:47, farhan israk a écrit :

I use Windows 10 1803, jaws 18, nvda 2018.3.2 and latest adobe reader.
When I use nvda then I can't open pdf file. But, when I use jaws then I can
open pdf file. How to fix it?




Re: [EXTERNAL] - Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues

Joshua Crary <JCrary@...>
 

I have found that I can do alright with the ribbons, but I find the speed of working with old style menus much better.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 4:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [EXTERNAL] - Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues

Not noticed it myself. But it is my view and yours is yours. I merely point at other pieces of software not by Microsoft.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


You have a problem, as you said . Most people learn ribbons without a lot of trouble. It may take them a little time but if taught properly, they don't find them a major problem. You are discouraging people from learning ribbons.

I am skeptical and suspicious of ribbon removing programs. I suspect you lose functionality when you try to force one interface to become another interface. I hope people comment on that.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 3:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


This is a huge can of worms. I personally feel that they are dire for blind users, but some people on here think that once you grasp the concept they are in fact easy.
Its a classic case of the way your brain visualises the concepts.
I did notice Jaws can be set to pretend they are normal menus, but my feeling here is that since you can use a simple add on to alter them ie ribbon remover, then I see no reason why Microsoft do not offer the themselves, but in a recent interview with Jenny at Microsoft she merely said, Embrace the ribbon, which I took to mean they are dogmatically against it.
Bah humbug I say.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don H" <lmddh50@adams.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2018 6:46 PM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and ribbon menues


Running latest NVDA and Win 10 1809.

The old addage of teaching a old dog new tricks fits this situation.
Having great difficulty in using the ribbon while in file explorer.
Are there any tutorials as how to use such ribbons?

Thanks













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