Date   

Re: Effective Use of Say All

Quentin Christensen
 

While Say all is reading (or indeed while NVDA is reading anything), you can either:
- Press CONTROL to stop speech.  This works with any synthesizer, but you will need to issue a new command to have NVDA start speaking again.

- Press SHIFT to pause speech.  This works with some but not all synthesizers (it works with Windows OneCore and eSpeak NG at least).  This is sometimes more responsive, and you can also press SHIFT again to keep reading from the same point.

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 10:50 AM Rechell Schwartz via Groups.Io <rechell_schwartz=glic.com@groups.io> wrote:

Thank you. That was very helpful. How can I stop the Say All to select an item that was just read?

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Quentin Christensen
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 7:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Effective Use of Say All

 

[EXTERNAL]

 

Re changing the speed, do you mean you've adjusted NVDA's speech rate generally (with NVDA+control+arrows or via the voice settings) but say all is still fast?

 

Say All uses its own configuration profile, so it is possible to have it read differently to when you are navigating around a document with the arrows, for instance.  You can even have it use a different synthesizer if you want.

 

To customise how Say All reads:

 

1) Press NVDA+control+p to open the configuration profiles dialog (or press NVDA+n, then C).

2) Press down arrow to find the one called "Say All".

3) Tab once to "Manual activate" and press enter.  The profile is loaded, and the dialog closes.

4) NVDA is now using the Say All profile.  Make any changes you like, adjust the speed, change the synthesizer or the punctuation level etc as you would normally.

5) Open the configuration profiles dialog again (NVDA+control+p or NVDA+n then c).

6) Press TAB once to the "Manual deactivate" button and press enter to close the profile.  NVDA returns to the normal profile, and will use the settings you just adjusted when you use Say all.

 

You can use the same steps to edit any other profiles.  You can also create profiles and have them triggered when you load certain applications.  To do that, first start the program you want to trigger a profile, then go into the configuration profiles dialog, create a "New" profile with the button marked new, tab to "Use this profile for", then right arrow to "current application (name)" and enter.

 

Any time you are in that program now, the profile you setup is used.  The difference with say all is that because the profile is used whenever you are in that program, to make changes to the profile, simply make them while that program is active - eg if you have a profile for Firefox, when in Firefox, if you slow the speech rate down, that change will be made in the firefox profile, and will take effect whenever you are in Firefox from now on.

 

Regards

 

Quentin.

 

 

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 9:53 AM Rechell Schwartz via Groups.Io <rechell_schwartz=glic.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hello,

 

Suppose as the screen reader is reading through a bunch of links (which it does VERY quickly), I want to stop it at a certain link and select it. What is the most efficient approach?

 

Also, is there a way to slow the reading of the Say All metadata? I have selected the appropriate speed in the NVDA setup menu, but it only applies this reduced speed to the actual screen text, and NOT the metadata.

 


 

 

----------------------------------------- This message, and any attachments to it, may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or communication of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete the message and any attachments. Thank you.

 


 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Effective Use of Say All

Rechell Schwartz <rechell_schwartz@...>
 

Thank you. That was very helpful. How can I stop the Say All to select an item that was just read?

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Quentin Christensen
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 7:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Effective Use of Say All

 

[EXTERNAL]

 

Re changing the speed, do you mean you've adjusted NVDA's speech rate generally (with NVDA+control+arrows or via the voice settings) but say all is still fast?

 

Say All uses its own configuration profile, so it is possible to have it read differently to when you are navigating around a document with the arrows, for instance.  You can even have it use a different synthesizer if you want.

 

To customise how Say All reads:

 

1) Press NVDA+control+p to open the configuration profiles dialog (or press NVDA+n, then C).

2) Press down arrow to find the one called "Say All".

3) Tab once to "Manual activate" and press enter.  The profile is loaded, and the dialog closes.

4) NVDA is now using the Say All profile.  Make any changes you like, adjust the speed, change the synthesizer or the punctuation level etc as you would normally.

5) Open the configuration profiles dialog again (NVDA+control+p or NVDA+n then c).

6) Press TAB once to the "Manual deactivate" button and press enter to close the profile.  NVDA returns to the normal profile, and will use the settings you just adjusted when you use Say all.

 

You can use the same steps to edit any other profiles.  You can also create profiles and have them triggered when you load certain applications.  To do that, first start the program you want to trigger a profile, then go into the configuration profiles dialog, create a "New" profile with the button marked new, tab to "Use this profile for", then right arrow to "current application (name)" and enter.

 

Any time you are in that program now, the profile you setup is used.  The difference with say all is that because the profile is used whenever you are in that program, to make changes to the profile, simply make them while that program is active - eg if you have a profile for Firefox, when in Firefox, if you slow the speech rate down, that change will be made in the firefox profile, and will take effect whenever you are in Firefox from now on.

 

Regards

 

Quentin.

 

 

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 9:53 AM Rechell Schwartz via Groups.Io <rechell_schwartz=glic.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hello,

 

Suppose as the screen reader is reading through a bunch of links (which it does VERY quickly), I want to stop it at a certain link and select it. What is the most efficient approach?

 

Also, is there a way to slow the reading of the Say All metadata? I have selected the appropriate speed in the NVDA setup menu, but it only applies this reduced speed to the actual screen text, and NOT the metadata.

 


 

 

----------------------------------------- This message, and any attachments to it, may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or communication of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete the message and any attachments. Thank you.

 


 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: determining the color of a text in Excel with NVDA

Rick
 

Hello Quentin:

 

Perhaps your difference for negative number choices is a localization variance based upon your operating system language. I am using US format for numbers and currency, so I get my third choice as number surrounded by parenthesis and fourth as red surrounded by parenthesis. Perhaps it is different for different countries.

 

Personally, I find no reason for NVDA to change. It is reading what is in the cell. JAWS and Narrator behave the same way. For NVDA to properly interpret the cells meaning, it would need to first ascertain that the cell is formatted as a number or currency before attempting to provide alternate speech for numbers that are bright red in color. If the cell is formatted as text, it may not even represent a negative number. Furthermore, since currencies differ from country to country, NVDA might have to further drill down based upon localization and currency choices. All this processing at each cell could slow down reading and I am not in favor. The real solution is for Microsoft to remove this antiquated choice (or replace it with a choice that is bright red with a negative sign) and to flag it as an accessibility error in their accessibility checker.

 

If the options with parenthesis are chosen and the NVDA symbol verbosity level is not set to high or all, the same situation occurs. NVDA will not speak the parenthesis and the user will not be provided with the necessary information. Should this be a warning in the accessibility checker, since a wrong choice for symbol verbosity will result in misinterpretation? I forget, but what is the default symbol verbosity level in NVDA?

 

To make things even more confusing, the use of red seems to come from accounting, yet there are no choices when setting the format to accounting to choose how negative numbers are displayed. Accounting format only displays negative numbers in parenthesis with no color variations. The difference in US currency is that accounting displays the dollar sign outside of the parenthesis while currency displays the dollar sign within the parenthesis. This means that when NVDA speaks the numbers with symbol verbosity to none or low, the user can differentiate between positive and negative accounting numbers. Positive numbers are spoken as 1 dollar, 2 dollars, etc. while negative numbers are spoken as dollar 1 dot zero zero  and dollar 2 dot zero zero. Since currency formatting puts the dollar sign inside the parenthesis, positive and negative numbers are spoken identically when symbol verbosity is set to none or low.

 

I also did a little digging on the history of using red to signify negative numbers. Below is the best excerpt that I found.

 

What does it mean to be “in the black” or “in the red?”

September 30, 2015/

If you’re even slightly familiar with the world of accounting and finance, you’ve probably heard the phrases “in the red” and “in the black” before. Even if you are not in finance, you may have heard the terms anyway—they have become a part of our everyday speech and they are often used in common conversation.

For those of you not familiar with the phrases, I’ll briefly explain. The phrase “in the black” refers to being financially solvent or profitable, or sometimes more generally, just not in debt. A business that is “in the black” is usually making a profit or, at the very least, making enough to get by without having to worry about going bankrupt. Conversely, the phrase, “in the red” means to be in debt, running a deficit, or generally just not making money—being cash negative. Although cash flow cycles for businesses and people change from year to year, a business that is “in the red” for several years in a row without a plan to get out of debt often fail. Of course, the phrases aren’t always used consistently, and there are always exceptions to the rule, but in general, being “in the black” is a positive thing, and being “in the red” is usually considered to be a negative thing.

So, now that you know what both of these phrases mean, you may be wondering where the terms came from or what their origins are? After all, there aren’t really any other fields in which these colors (black and red) are used to indicate positive and negative. So if you are guessing that these color indicators are somewhat unique to the world of finance, you would be correct.

To understand where these phrases come from, we have to go back to the days before accounting was done on computers. Before computers, accountants did everything by hand and with pen and paper. In order to help them differentiate between deposits and debits, they started using different color ink for each. Because black and red ink were two readily available colors, they were chosen for the purpose. Though it’s only speculation, some say that red was chosen to denote debits/losses/debts because red is considered a harsh color and can catch one’s attention. It also subtly reinforces the idea of negativity or something “bad.” They wanted to make debts stand out and catch people’s attention. It’s the same reason that teachers often correct homework and quizzes and tests with red pens—it grabs a student’s attention and lets them focus on what they did wrong so, hopefully, they can learn from their mistake and correct the mistake on the next test or quiz or homework assignment.

And now that everything is done on computers, the history of the phrases has still stuck around. In many cases, they really are meaningless. Most software now uses parentheses to indicate a negative number or a debit. Sometimes, they also simply put a minus sign before a number or even have a separate column in a spreadsheet for debits. It is, however, interesting to note that some computer programs still do use red type for debts and debits—a nod to the history of accounting. Again, there is really no practical purpose for this, but it fits with the history of accounting.

 

Rick

 

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Quentin Christensen
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 6:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] determining the color of a text in Excel with NVDA

 

Good points everyone - I should add, I wasn't intending to be argumentative, I was both indicating why NVDA reads what it does (firstly because it just reads the same text that a sighted user gets visually, and secondly because I don't think anyone had raised this particular scenario previously), and also starting to consider if we do change the information that is provided by the spreadsheet creator (a sighted user may automatically translate a number written in red to mean it's negative, but the information Excel gives them is still a regular number, written in red), are there any other situations to consider, either which should also be changed, or where this could lead to undesirable confusion.

 

Interestingly, the four options I have for number formatting in Excel (latest Office 365) are black with negative symbol, red without negative symbol, black with negative symbol and red with negative symbol.  I'm not sure why the third option for me seems to repeat the first - I was wondering where people were getting the negative number in parentheses from - must be a bug in my Excel maybe?

 

I have created an issue on our tracker for this, but do feel free to add any other info to it that I haven't thought of: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8875

 

Regards

 

Quentin.

 

 

 

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 8:13 AM Laurie Mehta via Groups.Io <lauriemehta=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Excellent post-- thank you Rick!

And, for whatever it's worth, I hope that NVDA maintains the way it reads such things currently since we could end up with some unwanted/unforeseen consequences if simply reading the color displayed is replaced with something else. Thanks,
LM

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 10/22/18, Rick <softwarethatworks@...> wrote:

Hello Mary and Quentin:
After following this thread since its beginning, I took some time to open Excel and play with number formatting. Excel essentially provides 4 standard ways to format negative numbers and currency:
• With a leading negative sign
• Bright red without a negative sign
• With parenthesis
• Bright red with parenthesis
The case Mary seems to describe is the second, where negative numbers are simply bright red without a negative sign. As Quentin pointed out, you could set NVDA to alert for color changes to signal negative numbers.
This case clearly violates WCAG guideline 1.4.1, do not use color alone to convey meaning. While I understand that it may be a common practice to format negative numbers in red, one would hope this practice would be deprecated as we move towards a more accessible world. This is not only bad for screen reader users but also a problem with printing on black and white printers and for people with some forms of color blindness.
Mary, are you able to contact the spreadsheet creator and explain the accessibility issue with the chosen display format? Otherwise, are you able to edit the spreadsheet to change the formatting option? If you select the range of cells, press the application key and select format cells. Tab a few times to get to how negative numbers are formatted and choose a more accessible format for yourself. The first tab should get you to the category, which is probably currency. The next tab is for number of digits after the decimal point. Next is the currency symbol. One more tab gets you to the negative number format. Now, use the up and down arrow to select your desired format (the top one is the conventional negative number sign). Remember, if you choose a format which uses parenthesis that your NVDA symbol level is set to most or all or you will not hear left parenthesis spoken when the number is spoken.
I formatted some negative numbers to display in the inaccessible format and ran the built-in accessibility checker. Sadly, it reported no errors. I reported this issue to Microsoft so hopefully it will be corrected in future versions.
Rick
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mary Otten
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] determining the color of a text in Excel with NVDA
Thanks, Quentin, for answering the question. I didn’t send the sheet I have a long, because it’s not something that I personally have control of. It’s an organization who owns the sheet. So I didn’t feel right about just sending it out since it’s financial. With regard to the question of what should be overwritten or not, it seems to me that if this color convention is well-established, any sighted person using the sheet is going to know that red means negative. Therefore, the important information is not the color it’s the state of the number. So it should be overwritten. What you want is the message conveyed by the color, not just knowledge of the color. As a blind person, you might not know that red  means negative, so you might not get the message. It would be like those talking signals they have where it says the walk sign is on. It doesn’t say the green light is on. I suppose most everybody knows that a green light means walk. But they convey the message about walking, rather than the fact that the light is green or that the little stick figure is on or whatever the picture is. Another example is the dots which means that there is a dialog box. Some screen readers like Jaws used to say…. Others would say opens a dialogue or has dialogue. I think the ones who say opens or has dialogue got it right, and the ones who say… Didn’t get it right. Why on earth would I necessarily know or need to know that… Means there’s a dialogue that will open if you click this.
Mary

On Oct 21, 2018, at 9:46 PM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
I did also reply to Brian's other thread on this topic, and while I'm just personally interested in the discussion, I realised no-one has actually answered Mary's original question yet.  While you can't specifically have NVDA decode negative numbers which aren't formatted as such, you can have NVDA report when the font colour changes.  This would be most useful where you spreadsheet contains say all black text except for negative numbers.  To do that, press NVDA+CONTROL+D to open the document formatting options, then press alt+c to jump to "colour".  Press spacebar to toggle whether that is checked (you want it checked to report colour changes), and press ENTER to close the settings.  Now when you get to a negative number, NVDA should report it as "bright red".
As for why it is reported as "bright red 18.00" and not "-18.00", basically, that's what the person who setup the spreadsheet told Excel to tell us.  A sighted user on the same sheet doesn't see "-18.00", they see "18.00" in bright red, and interpret that to mean -18.  In the same way if the actual contents of the cell are "=A1-B1" they see the number, not the formula, unless you press CONTROL+` to toggle displaying formulas instead of values.
I can see Brian's argument for overriding the specified formatting here, but would have to then ask back - in which cases should we override what the creator of the spreadsheet has deliberately setup, and in which cases should we defer to what they wanted?
Regards

Quentin.
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 4:20 PM Pranav Lal <pranav.lal@...> wrote:
Hi all,

Can someone share a sample sheet with this kind of formatting?

Pranav


--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 



 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Effective Use of Say All

Quentin Christensen
 

Re changing the speed, do you mean you've adjusted NVDA's speech rate generally (with NVDA+control+arrows or via the voice settings) but say all is still fast?

Say All uses its own configuration profile, so it is possible to have it read differently to when you are navigating around a document with the arrows, for instance.  You can even have it use a different synthesizer if you want.

To customise how Say All reads:

1) Press NVDA+control+p to open the configuration profiles dialog (or press NVDA+n, then C).
2) Press down arrow to find the one called "Say All".
3) Tab once to "Manual activate" and press enter.  The profile is loaded, and the dialog closes.
4) NVDA is now using the Say All profile.  Make any changes you like, adjust the speed, change the synthesizer or the punctuation level etc as you would normally.
5) Open the configuration profiles dialog again (NVDA+control+p or NVDA+n then c).
6) Press TAB once to the "Manual deactivate" button and press enter to close the profile.  NVDA returns to the normal profile, and will use the settings you just adjusted when you use Say all.

You can use the same steps to edit any other profiles.  You can also create profiles and have them triggered when you load certain applications.  To do that, first start the program you want to trigger a profile, then go into the configuration profiles dialog, create a "New" profile with the button marked new, tab to "Use this profile for", then right arrow to "current application (name)" and enter.

Any time you are in that program now, the profile you setup is used.  The difference with say all is that because the profile is used whenever you are in that program, to make changes to the profile, simply make them while that program is active - eg if you have a profile for Firefox, when in Firefox, if you slow the speech rate down, that change will be made in the firefox profile, and will take effect whenever you are in Firefox from now on.

Regards

Quentin.


On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 9:53 AM Rechell Schwartz via Groups.Io <rechell_schwartz=glic.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hello,

 

Suppose as the screen reader is reading through a bunch of links (which it does VERY quickly), I want to stop it at a certain link and select it. What is the most efficient approach?

 

Also, is there a way to slow the reading of the Say All metadata? I have selected the appropriate speed in the NVDA setup menu, but it only applies this reduced speed to the actual screen text, and NOT the metadata.

 


 


----------------------------------------- This message, and any attachments to it, may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or communication of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete the message and any attachments. Thank you.




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Effective Use of Say All

Rechell Schwartz <rechell_schwartz@...>
 

Hello,

 

Suppose as the screen reader is reading through a bunch of links (which it does VERY quickly), I want to stop it at a certain link and select it. What is the most efficient approach?

 

Also, is there a way to slow the reading of the Say All metadata? I have selected the appropriate speed in the NVDA setup menu, but it only applies this reduced speed to the actual screen text, and NOT the metadata.

 


 


----------------------------------------- This message, and any attachments to it, may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or communication of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete the message and any attachments. Thank you.



An Anomaly in the Order in Which Collapsed links are Announced

Rechell Schwartz <rechell_schwartz@...>
 

I went to the NVDA home page and noticed something unusual. When tabbing through the navigation items it announced which ones were collapsed after it read the link names (e.g, Corporate/Government ‘collapsed’). However in Say All mode it announced ‘collapsed’ before reading the collapsed link, so it sounded like it was appending the word ‘collapsed’ to the previous menu item (e.g., Download ‘collapsed’ Corporate/Government).


This difference is very confusing. Does it always treat expanded/collapsed in ‘Say All’?

 


 


----------------------------------------- This message, and any attachments to it, may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or communication of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete the message and any attachments. Thank you.



Re: Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA

David Moore
 

You are so welcome!

I could not use NVDA without that command at least three times a day!

LOL!

David Moore

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rechell Schwartz via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:41 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA

 

Hi David,

 

Your tip was very helpful. I didn’t realize there was a command to restart NVDA!

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA

 

[EXTERNAL]

 

Hi!

I have had all of these problems on Windows 10 latest build insider, 18262. I have to keep pressing Alt+Ctrl+N a lot to restart NVDA.

On many websites, in the mail app, and many other places, it will keep talking, and I can do nothing at that point but press the restart command. Also, NVDA gets more sluggish in the mail app, and it will not open messages unless I press enter many times.

I just wanted to point all of this out!

I have tried many synthesizers, and NVDA has the same behavior.

David Moore

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 2:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA

 

I don't use Windows 10 but this doesn't sound like normal behavior.  It sounds like a buffer overflow problem to me.  What voice are you using?  Using a different synthesizer might solve the problem.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 11:15 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA

 

OK. How can I get to a new menu when NVDA is acting this way? I can't seem to bring up anything when NVDA is in this mode. For example, it ignore Insert + N, or even Insert + Q.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 12:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA


[EXTERNAL]

Yes sometimes it seems that nvda is reading an old buffer. I seem to think some recent work is going on in this regard actually, but normally, simply bringing up a menu, then cancelling it will wake up the new buffer. I'm not sure why this sometimes happens but suspect nvda is reading a large amount of text its already  buffered for reading and has missed the fact that the text has gone as this is in the web page buffer, not the nvda speech one.
 As for announcing about emails coming in, this is what segregated people might see in the tray or via a balloon or whatever alert type is used. I suspect that this can be turned off in two ways, You can do it globally in the settings of nvda, which in my view is dangerous, or in the software that is sending them, ie do not put alerts in ... add where according to the software here!

Dropbox is always doing this as its active all the time and if you have shared folders when somebody changes something on one of those you get an alert about it.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rechell Schwartz via Groups.Io" <rechell_schwartz@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 4:50 PM
Subject: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA


Hello,

Is there anyway to stop NVDA from start announcing my emails when I am
viewing a web page?
Also, when I switch to another web page, it still keep reading out the
contents of the previous web page. What do I need to do to get NVDA to
cancel the old context and switch to the new context?

----------------------------------------------------------------------


----------------------------------------- This message, and any attachments
to it, may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt
from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not
the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination,
distribution, copying, or communication of this message is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the
sender immediately by return e-mail and delete the message and any
attachments. Thank you.









----------------------------------------------------------------------

 
----------------------------------------- This message, and any attachments to it, may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or communication of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete the message and any attachments. Thank you.

 

 


Re: determining the color of a text in Excel with NVDA

Quentin Christensen
 

Good points everyone - I should add, I wasn't intending to be argumentative, I was both indicating why NVDA reads what it does (firstly because it just reads the same text that a sighted user gets visually, and secondly because I don't think anyone had raised this particular scenario previously), and also starting to consider if we do change the information that is provided by the spreadsheet creator (a sighted user may automatically translate a number written in red to mean it's negative, but the information Excel gives them is still a regular number, written in red), are there any other situations to consider, either which should also be changed, or where this could lead to undesirable confusion.

Interestingly, the four options I have for number formatting in Excel (latest Office 365) are black with negative symbol, red without negative symbol, black with negative symbol and red with negative symbol.  I'm not sure why the third option for me seems to repeat the first - I was wondering where people were getting the negative number in parentheses from - must be a bug in my Excel maybe?

I have created an issue on our tracker for this, but do feel free to add any other info to it that I haven't thought of: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8875

Regards

Quentin.



On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 8:13 AM Laurie Mehta via Groups.Io <lauriemehta=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Excellent post-- thank you Rick!

And, for whatever it's worth, I hope that NVDA maintains the way it reads such things currently since we could end up with some unwanted/unforeseen consequences if simply reading the color displayed is replaced with something else. Thanks,
LM

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 10/22/18, Rick <softwarethatworks@...> wrote:

Hello Mary and Quentin:
After following this thread since its beginning, I took some time to open Excel and play with number formatting. Excel essentially provides 4 standard ways to format negative numbers and currency:
• With a leading negative sign
• Bright red without a negative sign
• With parenthesis
• Bright red with parenthesis
The case Mary seems to describe is the second, where negative numbers are simply bright red without a negative sign. As Quentin pointed out, you could set NVDA to alert for color changes to signal negative numbers.
This case clearly violates WCAG guideline 1.4.1, do not use color alone to convey meaning. While I understand that it may be a common practice to format negative numbers in red, one would hope this practice would be deprecated as we move towards a more accessible world. This is not only bad for screen reader users but also a problem with printing on black and white printers and for people with some forms of color blindness.
Mary, are you able to contact the spreadsheet creator and explain the accessibility issue with the chosen display format? Otherwise, are you able to edit the spreadsheet to change the formatting option? If you select the range of cells, press the application key and select format cells. Tab a few times to get to how negative numbers are formatted and choose a more accessible format for yourself. The first tab should get you to the category, which is probably currency. The next tab is for number of digits after the decimal point. Next is the currency symbol. One more tab gets you to the negative number format. Now, use the up and down arrow to select your desired format (the top one is the conventional negative number sign). Remember, if you choose a format which uses parenthesis that your NVDA symbol level is set to most or all or you will not hear left parenthesis spoken when the number is spoken.
I formatted some negative numbers to display in the inaccessible format and ran the built-in accessibility checker. Sadly, it reported no errors. I reported this issue to Microsoft so hopefully it will be corrected in future versions.
Rick
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mary Otten
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] determining the color of a text in Excel with NVDA
Thanks, Quentin, for answering the question. I didn’t send the sheet I have a long, because it’s not something that I personally have control of. It’s an organization who owns the sheet. So I didn’t feel right about just sending it out since it’s financial. With regard to the question of what should be overwritten or not, it seems to me that if this color convention is well-established, any sighted person using the sheet is going to know that red means negative. Therefore, the important information is not the color it’s the state of the number. So it should be overwritten. What you want is the message conveyed by the color, not just knowledge of the color. As a blind person, you might not know that red  means negative, so you might not get the message. It would be like those talking signals they have where it says the walk sign is on. It doesn’t say the green light is on. I suppose most everybody knows that a green light means walk. But they convey the message about walking, rather than the fact that the light is green or that the little stick figure is on or whatever the picture is. Another example is the dots which means that there is a dialog box. Some screen readers like Jaws used to say…. Others would say opens a dialogue or has dialogue. I think the ones who say opens or has dialogue got it right, and the ones who say… Didn’t get it right. Why on earth would I necessarily know or need to know that… Means there’s a dialogue that will open if you click this.
Mary

On Oct 21, 2018, at 9:46 PM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
I did also reply to Brian's other thread on this topic, and while I'm just personally interested in the discussion, I realised no-one has actually answered Mary's original question yet.  While you can't specifically have NVDA decode negative numbers which aren't formatted as such, you can have NVDA report when the font colour changes.  This would be most useful where you spreadsheet contains say all black text except for negative numbers.  To do that, press NVDA+CONTROL+D to open the document formatting options, then press alt+c to jump to "colour".  Press spacebar to toggle whether that is checked (you want it checked to report colour changes), and press ENTER to close the settings.  Now when you get to a negative number, NVDA should report it as "bright red".
As for why it is reported as "bright red 18.00" and not "-18.00", basically, that's what the person who setup the spreadsheet told Excel to tell us.  A sighted user on the same sheet doesn't see "-18.00", they see "18.00" in bright red, and interpret that to mean -18.  In the same way if the actual contents of the cell are "=A1-B1" they see the number, not the formula, unless you press CONTROL+` to toggle displaying formulas instead of values.
I can see Brian's argument for overriding the specified formatting here, but would have to then ask back - in which cases should we override what the creator of the spreadsheet has deliberately setup, and in which cases should we defer to what they wanted?
Regards

Quentin.
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 4:20 PM Pranav Lal <pranav.lal@...> wrote:
Hi all,

Can someone share a sample sheet with this kind of formatting?

Pranav


--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: nvda and brailledisplays

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Joe,

The only two pieces of info I have are that I find with an Alva I use occasionally, I need to start it before starting NVDA.  From memory, I think I used to (maybe an earlier version of Windows 10, or maybe Windows 7) have to have it connected and turned on before starting Windows to ensure it behaved.


"Note: NVDA might be unable to use an ALVA BC6 display over Bluetooth when it is paired using the ALVA Bluetooth utility. When you have paired your device using this utility and NVDA is unable to detect your device, we recommend you to pair your ALVA display the regular way using the Windows Bluetooth settings." so that could be something to check as well.

Regards

Quentin.


On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 2:25 AM Joe Paton <patonplace@...> wrote:
Good Afternoon

I have an optilec alva b6080 display.

It does not appear in the list of braille displays, although there is
obviously the automatic detection option.

Is there a generic driver for the optilec? or, must a ticket be raised
so that a driver can be built for the future?

I don't need access to this display immediately, but some time next
year, 2019 would be nice.
Many thanks.





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Sluggish browse mode keystrokes in Google Chrome

 

ah didn't know that one.

thanks for the tip.

On 10/22/2018 2:56 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
I didn't notice whether anyone had mentioned this, but since it's something not everyone knows about, for the benefit of anyone reading who wonders how GMail's (or any site's) built-in keystrokes work with NVDA's single letter navigation (eg H for heading, E for edit box, etc), the way to do it is to disable NVDA's single letter navigation.  To do this, press NVDA+SHIFT+SPACEBAR to toggle NVDA's single letter navigation.

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 1:43 AM Cohn, Jonathan <jcohn@...> wrote:
I know that your example of Gmail was just an example, but I generally find that the built-in keystorkes that Gmail provides are significantly faster to navigate mail with than using the screen reader functionality.

Essentially, one can open a thread with "o" close a thread with "u", browse through the list of threads with "j" and "k" and navigate individual messages in a thread with "n" and "p".

Of course they also have keystrokes for replying, forwarding, deleting, archiving, and ignore thread.

Take care,

Jonathan


On 10/21/18, 5:52 PM, "nvda@nvda.groups.io on behalf of Tony Malykh" <nvda@nvda.groups.io on behalf of anton.malykh@...> wrote:

    Hi all

    I have been noticing lately that many browse mode shortcuts are
    sluggish in Google Chrome, especially on large web pages. Let me try
    to explain what I mean with an example.

    Suppose I open a large email thread (say 20 replies) in gmail in
    Google Chrome. If I press H and then K, my cursor is supposed to find
    the next heading, and then find the next link after that heading and
    stop there. However, if I press them quickly one after the other, then
    the after finding that link the cursor would jump back to the previous
    heading as if I had pressed Shift+H afterwards. In other words, the
    cursor would frirst find the heading, then jump to the next link, and
    then it would mysteriously jump back to that heading again, all within
    a short time, like within a second. I mentioned H and K just an
    example - it seems that this issue can be reproduced with almost any
    two browse mode commands, such as F, E, G, and so on.

    Has anyone been aware of this issue? Are there any known workarounds?
    One obvious workaround is for me to wait  after every single browse
    mode keystroke, but that would make using Chrome too anoying - I would
    have to wait for about a second after pressing any browse mode
    keystroke.

    Actually I could reproduce this issue on the other browsers too -
    Firefox and IE, although on a much lesser scale. In both Firefox and
    IE you need to press these keystroeks really quickly together (maybe
    less than 0.1 seconds apart to reproduce it, which  probably wouldn't
    affect anyone. This bug is only bothersome in Chrome.

    I'm using the latest NVDA 2018.3.2 and the latest Windows 10. I have a
    modern laptop, so this is not an issue of running out of CPU or
    memory. I don't have too many tabs open and I don't have other
    programs running.

    Best regards
    Tony










--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

-- 
check out my song on youtube
https://youtu.be/YeWgx2LRu7Y


Re: Sluggish browse mode keystrokes in Google Chrome

Quentin Christensen
 

I didn't notice whether anyone had mentioned this, but since it's something not everyone knows about, for the benefit of anyone reading who wonders how GMail's (or any site's) built-in keystrokes work with NVDA's single letter navigation (eg H for heading, E for edit box, etc), the way to do it is to disable NVDA's single letter navigation.  To do this, press NVDA+SHIFT+SPACEBAR to toggle NVDA's single letter navigation.

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 1:43 AM Cohn, Jonathan <jcohn@...> wrote:
I know that your example of Gmail was just an example, but I generally find that the built-in keystorkes that Gmail provides are significantly faster to navigate mail with than using the screen reader functionality.

Essentially, one can open a thread with "o" close a thread with "u", browse through the list of threads with "j" and "k" and navigate individual messages in a thread with "n" and "p".

Of course they also have keystrokes for replying, forwarding, deleting, archiving, and ignore thread.

Take care,

Jonathan


On 10/21/18, 5:52 PM, "nvda@nvda.groups.io on behalf of Tony Malykh" <nvda@nvda.groups.io on behalf of anton.malykh@...> wrote:

    Hi all

    I have been noticing lately that many browse mode shortcuts are
    sluggish in Google Chrome, especially on large web pages. Let me try
    to explain what I mean with an example.

    Suppose I open a large email thread (say 20 replies) in gmail in
    Google Chrome. If I press H and then K, my cursor is supposed to find
    the next heading, and then find the next link after that heading and
    stop there. However, if I press them quickly one after the other, then
    the after finding that link the cursor would jump back to the previous
    heading as if I had pressed Shift+H afterwards. In other words, the
    cursor would frirst find the heading, then jump to the next link, and
    then it would mysteriously jump back to that heading again, all within
    a short time, like within a second. I mentioned H and K just an
    example - it seems that this issue can be reproduced with almost any
    two browse mode commands, such as F, E, G, and so on.

    Has anyone been aware of this issue? Are there any known workarounds?
    One obvious workaround is for me to wait  after every single browse
    mode keystroke, but that would make using Chrome too anoying - I would
    have to wait for about a second after pressing any browse mode
    keystroke.

    Actually I could reproduce this issue on the other browsers too -
    Firefox and IE, although on a much lesser scale. In both Firefox and
    IE you need to press these keystroeks really quickly together (maybe
    less than 0.1 seconds apart to reproduce it, which  probably wouldn't
    affect anyone. This bug is only bothersome in Chrome.

    I'm using the latest NVDA 2018.3.2 and the latest Windows 10. I have a
    modern laptop, so this is not an issue of running out of CPU or
    memory. I don't have too many tabs open and I don't have other
    programs running.

    Best regards
    Tony










--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA

Rechell Schwartz <rechell_schwartz@...>
 

Hi David,

 

Your tip was very helpful. I didn’t realize there was a command to restart NVDA!

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA

 

[EXTERNAL]

 

Hi!

I have had all of these problems on Windows 10 latest build insider, 18262. I have to keep pressing Alt+Ctrl+N a lot to restart NVDA.

On many websites, in the mail app, and many other places, it will keep talking, and I can do nothing at that point but press the restart command. Also, NVDA gets more sluggish in the mail app, and it will not open messages unless I press enter many times.

I just wanted to point all of this out!

I have tried many synthesizers, and NVDA has the same behavior.

David Moore

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 2:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA

 

I don't use Windows 10 but this doesn't sound like normal behavior.  It sounds like a buffer overflow problem to me.  What voice are you using?  Using a different synthesizer might solve the problem.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 11:15 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA

 

OK. How can I get to a new menu when NVDA is acting this way? I can't seem to bring up anything when NVDA is in this mode. For example, it ignore Insert + N, or even Insert + Q.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 12:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA


[EXTERNAL]

Yes sometimes it seems that nvda is reading an old buffer. I seem to think some recent work is going on in this regard actually, but normally, simply bringing up a menu, then cancelling it will wake up the new buffer. I'm not sure why this sometimes happens but suspect nvda is reading a large amount of text its already  buffered for reading and has missed the fact that the text has gone as this is in the web page buffer, not the nvda speech one.
 As for announcing about emails coming in, this is what segregated people might see in the tray or via a balloon or whatever alert type is used. I suspect that this can be turned off in two ways, You can do it globally in the settings of nvda, which in my view is dangerous, or in the software that is sending them, ie do not put alerts in ... add where according to the software here!

Dropbox is always doing this as its active all the time and if you have shared folders when somebody changes something on one of those you get an alert about it.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rechell Schwartz via Groups.Io" <rechell_schwartz@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 4:50 PM
Subject: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA


Hello,

Is there anyway to stop NVDA from start announcing my emails when I am
viewing a web page?
Also, when I switch to another web page, it still keep reading out the
contents of the previous web page. What do I need to do to get NVDA to
cancel the old context and switch to the new context?

----------------------------------------------------------------------


----------------------------------------- This message, and any attachments
to it, may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt
from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not
the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination,
distribution, copying, or communication of this message is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the
sender immediately by return e-mail and delete the message and any
attachments. Thank you.









----------------------------------------------------------------------

 
----------------------------------------- This message, and any attachments to it, may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or communication of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete the message and any attachments. Thank you.


 


Re: Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA

David Moore
 

Hi!

I have had all of these problems on Windows 10 latest build insider, 18262. I have to keep pressing Alt+Ctrl+N a lot to restart NVDA.

On many websites, in the mail app, and many other places, it will keep talking, and I can do nothing at that point but press the restart command. Also, NVDA gets more sluggish in the mail app, and it will not open messages unless I press enter many times.

I just wanted to point all of this out!

I have tried many synthesizers, and NVDA has the same behavior.

David Moore

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 2:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA

 

I don't use Windows 10 but this doesn't sound like normal behavior.  It sounds like a buffer overflow problem to me.  What voice are you using?  Using a different synthesizer might solve the problem.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 11:15 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA

 

OK. How can I get to a new menu when NVDA is acting this way? I can't seem to bring up anything when NVDA is in this mode. For example, it ignore Insert + N, or even Insert + Q.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 12:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA


[EXTERNAL]

Yes sometimes it seems that nvda is reading an old buffer. I seem to think some recent work is going on in this regard actually, but normally, simply bringing up a menu, then cancelling it will wake up the new buffer. I'm not sure why this sometimes happens but suspect nvda is reading a large amount of text its already  buffered for reading and has missed the fact that the text has gone as this is in the web page buffer, not the nvda speech one.
 As for announcing about emails coming in, this is what segregated people might see in the tray or via a balloon or whatever alert type is used. I suspect that this can be turned off in two ways, You can do it globally in the settings of nvda, which in my view is dangerous, or in the software that is sending them, ie do not put alerts in ... add where according to the software here!

Dropbox is always doing this as its active all the time and if you have shared folders when somebody changes something on one of those you get an alert about it.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rechell Schwartz via Groups.Io" <rechell_schwartz@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 4:50 PM
Subject: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA


Hello,

Is there anyway to stop NVDA from start announcing my emails when I am
viewing a web page?
Also, when I switch to another web page, it still keep reading out the
contents of the previous web page. What do I need to do to get NVDA to
cancel the old context and switch to the new context?

----------------------------------------------------------------------


----------------------------------------- This message, and any attachments
to it, may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt
from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not
the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination,
distribution, copying, or communication of this message is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the
sender immediately by return e-mail and delete the message and any
attachments. Thank you.









----------------------------------------------------------------------

 
----------------------------------------- This message, and any attachments to it, may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or communication of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete the message and any attachments. Thank you.



 


Re: determining the color of a text in Excel with NVDA

Laurie Mehta
 

Excellent post-- thank you Rick!

And, for whatever it's worth, I hope that NVDA maintains the way it reads such things currently since we could end up with some unwanted/unforeseen consequences if simply reading the color displayed is replaced with something else. Thanks,
LM

--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 10/22/18, Rick <softwarethatworks@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Mary and Quentin:
After following this thread since its beginning, I took some time to open Excel and play with number formatting. Excel essentially provides 4 standard ways to format negative numbers and currency:
• With a leading negative sign
• Bright red without a negative sign
• With parenthesis
• Bright red with parenthesis
The case Mary seems to describe is the second, where negative numbers are simply bright red without a negative sign. As Quentin pointed out, you could set NVDA to alert for color changes to signal negative numbers.
This case clearly violates WCAG guideline 1.4.1, do not use color alone to convey meaning. While I understand that it may be a common practice to format negative numbers in red, one would hope this practice would be deprecated as we move towards a more accessible world. This is not only bad for screen reader users but also a problem with printing on black and white printers and for people with some forms of color blindness.
Mary, are you able to contact the spreadsheet creator and explain the accessibility issue with the chosen display format? Otherwise, are you able to edit the spreadsheet to change the formatting option? If you select the range of cells, press the application key and select format cells. Tab a few times to get to how negative numbers are formatted and choose a more accessible format for yourself. The first tab should get you to the category, which is probably currency. The next tab is for number of digits after the decimal point. Next is the currency symbol. One more tab gets you to the negative number format. Now, use the up and down arrow to select your desired format (the top one is the conventional negative number sign). Remember, if you choose a format which uses parenthesis that your NVDA symbol level is set to most or all or you will not hear left parenthesis spoken when the number is spoken.
I formatted some negative numbers to display in the inaccessible format and ran the built-in accessibility checker. Sadly, it reported no errors. I reported this issue to Microsoft so hopefully it will be corrected in future versions.
Rick
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mary Otten
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] determining the color of a text in Excel with NVDA
Thanks, Quentin, for answering the question. I didn’t send the sheet I have a long, because it’s not something that I personally have control of. It’s an organization who owns the sheet. So I didn’t feel right about just sending it out since it’s financial. With regard to the question of what should be overwritten or not, it seems to me that if this color convention is well-established, any sighted person using the sheet is going to know that red means negative. Therefore, the important information is not the color it’s the state of the number. So it should be overwritten. What you want is the message conveyed by the color, not just knowledge of the color. As a blind person, you might not know that red  means negative, so you might not get the message. It would be like those talking signals they have where it says the walk sign is on. It doesn’t say the green light is on. I suppose most everybody knows that a green light means walk. But they convey the message about walking, rather than the fact that the light is green or that the little stick figure is on or whatever the picture is. Another example is the dots which means that there is a dialog box. Some screen readers like Jaws used to say…. Others would say opens a dialogue or has dialogue. I think the ones who say opens or has dialogue got it right, and the ones who say… Didn’t get it right. Why on earth would I necessarily know or need to know that… Means there’s a dialogue that will open if you click this.
Mary

On Oct 21, 2018, at 9:46 PM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@nvaccess.org> wrote:
I did also reply to Brian's other thread on this topic, and while I'm just personally interested in the discussion, I realised no-one has actually answered Mary's original question yet.  While you can't specifically have NVDA decode negative numbers which aren't formatted as such, you can have NVDA report when the font colour changes.  This would be most useful where you spreadsheet contains say all black text except for negative numbers.  To do that, press NVDA+CONTROL+D to open the document formatting options, then press alt+c to jump to "colour".  Press spacebar to toggle whether that is checked (you want it checked to report colour changes), and press ENTER to close the settings.  Now when you get to a negative number, NVDA should report it as "bright red".
As for why it is reported as "bright red 18.00" and not "-18.00", basically, that's what the person who setup the spreadsheet told Excel to tell us.  A sighted user on the same sheet doesn't see "-18.00", they see "18.00" in bright red, and interpret that to mean -18.  In the same way if the actual contents of the cell are "=A1-B1" they see the number, not the formula, unless you press CONTROL+` to toggle displaying formulas instead of values.
I can see Brian's argument for overriding the specified formatting here, but would have to then ask back - in which cases should we override what the creator of the spreadsheet has deliberately setup, and in which cases should we defer to what they wanted?
Regards

Quentin.
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 4:20 PM Pranav Lal <pranav.lal@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,

Can someone share a sample sheet with this kind of formatting?

Pranav


--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess


Re: determining the color of a text in Excel with NVDA

Rick
 

Hello Mary and Quentin:

 

After following this thread since its beginning, I took some time to open Excel and play with number formatting. Excel essentially provides 4 standard ways to format negative numbers and currency:

  • With a leading negative sign
  • Bright red without a negative sign
  • With parenthesis
  • Bright red with parenthesis

 

The case Mary seems to describe is the second, where negative numbers are simply bright red without a negative sign. As Quentin pointed out, you could set NVDA to alert for color changes to signal negative numbers.

 

This case clearly violates WCAG guideline 1.4.1, do not use color alone to convey meaning. While I understand that it may be a common practice to format negative numbers in red, one would hope this practice would be deprecated as we move towards a more accessible world. This is not only bad for screen reader users but also a problem with printing on black and white printers and for people with some forms of color blindness.

 

Mary, are you able to contact the spreadsheet creator and explain the accessibility issue with the chosen display format? Otherwise, are you able to edit the spreadsheet to change the formatting option? If you select the range of cells, press the application key and select format cells. Tab a few times to get to how negative numbers are formatted and choose a more accessible format for yourself. The first tab should get you to the category, which is probably currency. The next tab is for number of digits after the decimal point. Next is the currency symbol. One more tab gets you to the negative number format. Now, use the up and down arrow to select your desired format (the top one is the conventional negative number sign). Remember, if you choose a format which uses parenthesis that your NVDA symbol level is set to most or all or you will not hear left parenthesis spoken when the number is spoken.

 

I formatted some negative numbers to display in the inaccessible format and ran the built-in accessibility checker. Sadly, it reported no errors. I reported this issue to Microsoft so hopefully it will be corrected in future versions.

 

Rick

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mary Otten
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] determining the color of a text in Excel with NVDA

 

Thanks, Quentin, for answering the question. I didn’t send the sheet I have a long, because it’s not something that I personally have control of. It’s an organization who owns the sheet. So I didn’t feel right about just sending it out since it’s financial. With regard to the question of what should be overwritten or not, it seems to me that if this color convention is well-established, any sighted person using the sheet is going to know that red means negative. Therefore, the important information is not the color it’s the state of the number. So it should be overwritten. What you want is the message conveyed by the color, not just knowledge of the color. As a blind person, you might not know that red  means negative, so you might not get the message. It would be like those talking signals they have where it says the walk sign is on. It doesn’t say the green light is on. I suppose most everybody knows that a green light means walk. But they convey the message about walking, rather than the fact that the light is green or that the little stick figure is on or whatever the picture is. Another example is the dots which means that there is a dialog box. Some screen readers like Jaws used to say…. Others would say opens a dialogue or has dialogue. I think the ones who say opens or has dialogue got it right, and the ones who say… Didn’t get it right. Why on earth would I necessarily know or need to know that… Means there’s a dialogue that will open if you click this.

Mary

 


On Oct 21, 2018, at 9:46 PM, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:

I did also reply to Brian's other thread on this topic, and while I'm just personally interested in the discussion, I realised no-one has actually answered Mary's original question yet.  While you can't specifically have NVDA decode negative numbers which aren't formatted as such, you can have NVDA report when the font colour changes.  This would be most useful where you spreadsheet contains say all black text except for negative numbers.  To do that, press NVDA+CONTROL+D to open the document formatting options, then press alt+c to jump to "colour".  Press spacebar to toggle whether that is checked (you want it checked to report colour changes), and press ENTER to close the settings.  Now when you get to a negative number, NVDA should report it as "bright red".

 

As for why it is reported as "bright red 18.00" and not "-18.00", basically, that's what the person who setup the spreadsheet told Excel to tell us.  A sighted user on the same sheet doesn't see "-18.00", they see "18.00" in bright red, and interpret that to mean -18.  In the same way if the actual contents of the cell are "=A1-B1" they see the number, not the formula, unless you press CONTROL+` to toggle displaying formulas instead of values.

 

I can see Brian's argument for overriding the specified formatting here, but would have to then ask back - in which cases should we override what the creator of the spreadsheet has deliberately setup, and in which cases should we defer to what they wanted?

 

Regards


Quentin.

 

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 4:20 PM Pranav Lal <pranav.lal@...> wrote:

Hi all,

Can someone share a sample sheet with this kind of formatting?

Pranav




 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: winamp is on ninite

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I saw that after installing the new winamp.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert Doc Wright godfearer
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 3:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] winamp is on ninite

the media library has been expanded to now include podcast and cd ripping
----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@ca.inter.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] winamp is on ninite


Why not look at the what's new file and find out? I'm only assuming it has
one; most programmes that are updated do, so people can keep track of
changes.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: October 21, 2018 12:34 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] winamp is on ninite

What I'd like to know, is what does this new version have to offer compared
to the version we've been using for years?

On 10/21/2018 8:37 AM, Bobby Vinton wrote:
Just to let you all know win amp is now on www.ninite.com. I am
wondering if the new version is any better than the older versions?
Just let me know and I will install it.





Re: winamp is on ninite

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I just tried the stream with windows media player and it works good. It's loud enough where I can hear it.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert Doc Wright godfearer
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 3:40 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] winamp is on ninite

did you test the stream with another program to make sure that its not the streamer that is broadcasting too low.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] winamp is on ninite


I tried doing both the system tray and with the equalizer and nothing worked. The volume is as high as it'll go and it's still very low. I don't know what else to do.

Rosemarie



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 11:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] winamp is on ninite

That probably has little to do with winamp.
Couple of things you could try if you haven't:
Make sure Winamp has a high enough volume set in your Windows audio mixer.
You can get to it from the system tray. If you have Windows 10, you can control the output volume of the various applications that use audio. Not good for fine-tuning in my experience, but if you find a programme always has a low volume, it doesn't hurt to check.
Make sure the volume in Winamp is high enough. Up and down arrows usually control this, as you probably know.

Finally, winamp has a pre-amp as well. This is for boosting the amplitude of sounds that have a low output volume, IE, the volume of the stream or file itself is low. Open the equalizer with alt-g. You'll probably have to ctrl-tab to put focus on the equalizer. Then, hit the grave accent key to increase the preamp power. You don't want to do this too much or else you'll get distortion. Just boost the sound until it's comfortable.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: October 21, 2018 2:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] winamp is on ninite

I just tried the new winamp but I don't think it's that much better. I just tried listening to an oldies station and the volume was very low.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bobby
Vinton
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 8:37 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] winamp is on ninite

Just to let you all know win amp is now on www.ninite.com. I am wondering
if the new version is any better than the older versions? Just let me know
and I will install it.


Re: winamp is on ninite

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I'm using external speakers and they're set at 100 percent.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert Doc Wright godfearer
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 3:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] winamp is on ninite

I am not sure what is happening for you. It plays nice and loud for me. Are you using internal or external speakers?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] winamp is on ninite


Try www.legend-oldies.com.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 12:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] winamp is on ninite

Hm, what's the stream url? I'll try some things.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: October 21, 2018 3:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] winamp is on ninite

Yes.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 12:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] winamp is on ninite

I wonder if the pre-amp is even working, then?
Did you have this problem with Winamp 5.666?

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: October 21, 2018 3:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] winamp is on ninite

I tried doing both the system tray and with the equalizer and nothing worked. The volume is as high as it'll go and it's still very low. I don't know what else to do.

Rosemarie



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 11:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] winamp is on ninite

That probably has little to do with winamp.
Couple of things you could try if you haven't:
Make sure Winamp has a high enough volume set in your Windows audio mixer.
You can get to it from the system tray. If you have Windows 10, you can control the output volume of the various applications that use audio. Not good for fine-tuning in my experience, but if you find a programme always has a low volume, it doesn't hurt to check.
Make sure the volume in Winamp is high enough. Up and down arrows usually control this, as you probably know.

Finally, winamp has a pre-amp as well. This is for boosting the amplitude of sounds that have a low output volume, IE, the volume of the stream or file itself is low. Open the equalizer with alt-g. You'll probably have to ctrl-tab to put focus on the equalizer. Then, hit the grave accent key to increase the preamp power. You don't want to do this too much or else you'll get distortion. Just boost the sound until it's comfortable.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: October 21, 2018 2:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] winamp is on ninite

I just tried the new winamp but I don't think it's that much better. I just tried listening to an oldies station and the volume was very low.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bobby
Vinton
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 8:37 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] winamp is on ninite

Just to let you all know win amp is now on www.ninite.com. I am wondering
if the new version is any better than the older versions? Just let me know
and I will install it.


Re: Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA

Gene
 

I don't use Windows 10 but this doesn't sound like normal behavior.  It sounds like a buffer overflow problem to me.  What voice are you using?  Using a different synthesizer might solve the problem.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA

OK. How can I get to a new menu when NVDA is acting this way? I can't seem to bring up anything when NVDA is in this mode. For example, it ignore Insert + N, or even Insert + Q.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 12:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA


[EXTERNAL]

Yes sometimes it seems that nvda is reading an old buffer. I seem to think some recent work is going on in this regard actually, but normally, simply bringing up a menu, then cancelling it will wake up the new buffer. I'm not sure why this sometimes happens but suspect nvda is reading a large amount of text its already  buffered for reading and has missed the fact that the text has gone as this is in the web page buffer, not the nvda speech one.
 As for announcing about emails coming in, this is what segregated people might see in the tray or via a balloon or whatever alert type is used. I suspect that this can be turned off in two ways, You can do it globally in the settings of nvda, which in my view is dangerous, or in the software that is sending them, ie do not put alerts in ... add where according to the software here!

Dropbox is always doing this as its active all the time and if you have shared folders when somebody changes something on one of those you get an alert about it.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rechell Schwartz via Groups.Io" <rechell_schwartz@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 4:50 PM
Subject: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA


Hello,

Is there anyway to stop NVDA from start announcing my emails when I am
viewing a web page?
Also, when I switch to another web page, it still keep reading out the
contents of the previous web page. What do I need to do to get NVDA to
cancel the old context and switch to the new context?

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Re: How to Re-start NVDA

Gene
 

In this case, the say all command is the most logical inference about what is being asked.  In the desktop layout, the command is NVDA key, either insert by default, and the down arrow.  You can set the capslock to be an NVdA key and then you can use capslock down arrow for read to end.  That is for most people, I think, a much more convenient command.  If you want to know how to set the capslock as an NVDA key, ask here.  If you set it, you can still use either insert key, so you actually have three keys available as NVDA keys.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to Re-start NVDA

Hi Rechelle,

Control key stops speaking altogether. In this situation, either move to another place, perform some reading commands, or do something else that causes NvDA to speak.

P.S. I highly recommend studying and listening to tutorials made by NV Access and me, as our materials will teach you all there is to it when it comes to using NVDA (including some advanced concepts).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rechell Schwartz via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 8:52 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] How to Re-start NVDA

 

Suppose I stop the voice on NVDA by pressing the Control Key. How can I get it to resume reading when I am ready?

 


 

 

----------------------------------------- This message, and any attachments to it, may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or communication of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete the message and any attachments. Thank you.