Date   

Re: Facebook account

farhan israk
 

Yes


On Wed, 22 Aug 2018, 3:04 pm Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io, <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
Do you mean you have also lost the computer access as well?
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "farhan israk" <fahim.net.2014@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Facebook account


> I'm Fahim from Dhaka Bangladesh. I use Google authenticator. I have
> changed
> phone. I have done factory reset my previous phone. I forgot to take
> backup. So, I'm not able to access my facebook account. How to recover it?
>
>
>
>





Re: Favourite add-ons

Gene
 

Those commands, undo and redo are spoken just because the commands are given.  But copy, cut, and paste are usually spoken when the add on is aware that an action has occurred.  I believe there is a newer version of the add on than the one I'm using.  I got it when the add on first came out.  In the version that may now be superceded, I can cause copy text to be spoken at an improper time because of a bug.  If I copy a file to the clipboard from the files list in Windows Explorer, then move to a document where no text is selected and use control c, copy to clipboard will be spoken.  But in general, the notifications are reliable. 
 
You can test this.  Try copying a line of text to the clipboard.  Then, try copying it again.  You will hear "no change" spoken. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

Hi

I use the Clipspeak add on and although the cut, copy and paste functions work OK when I use Control+y in MS Outlook to open the folder list, “Re-Do” is voiced by the add-on even though a Re-Do operation has not been performed.  Similarly, Control+z can be pressed and “Un-Do” is voiced in contexts where it is not a viable keystroke.  This makes me think the keystroke is voiced irrespective of the success/failure of the function it performs.             .,  ,      

 

I am happy to use the add-on as I believe its pros outweigh it’s cons and so long as people are aware of it’s foibles, it’s a useful tool.

 

 

Cheers

Chris

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 22 August 2018 11:14
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

Here is a correction to my last message. 

 

I said that one reason that copy, cut and paste aren't announced is the ideological one I discussed.  That may be incorrect.  I read two discussions of this when users requested the feature that are available on Ghithub.  I didn't see the ideological reason given.  Instead, the mistaken belief was expressed that it can't be known reliably except in certain cases, when copying, pasting, and cutting occur. this is factually incorrect yet it was believed by the developers for most of the years NVDA has been under development.  I don't know what the developers believe now. 

 

The argument was that NVDA would have to be programmed to announce copy, paste, and cut when the commands were given without any knowledge of whether the actions were actually taken.  So the screen-reader would give false information if something prevented the operations from occurring. 

 

As the developer of the add on has demonstrated and as I did in my tests, this belief is incorrect and I strongly believe that since the belief has been disproven, that the feature should either be placed in code or that the add on be distributed and active as part of the installation.  I don't care which solution would be adopted.

 

Gene

----- original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:49 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

This message is rather long.  I hope you find it interesting and provocative of thought.

 

Rarely, one of the icons doesn't work as expect in the system tray. I don't remember what now, but I couldn't do something in the system tray I should have been able to do but I could in the system tray dialog. 

 

Aside from that, while it wouldn't be a major problem or inconvenience to accustom myself to the system tray interface for regular use, why should I have to?  The dialog has been standard in screen-readers since Windows 98.  Why wasn't it included in NVDA?  As far as I know, this was for ideological reasons, and ideology defeated common sense and a reasonable accomodation to something that had been available for so long that it is now the standard. 

 

the reason there was a separate system tray dialog in the first place is that the system tray wasn't accessible in Windows 98.  And when the system tray dialog was instituted, a lot of people were still using Windows 95, where the system tray was also inaccessible.  So the dialog started as a way to use an inaccessible feature, not as a redundancy. 

 

The ideological principle is that screen-readers should never unless really necessary, present anything that isn't presented to the sighted user in a different format or manner or present any additional information. 

 

While I generally agree with this approach, ideology, strictly adhered to to the point of absurdity, always fails to deal with reality or common sense. 

 

New users to NVDA should not have to wait until they, maybe, learn about add ons to have a feature that has been standard in screen-readers for twenty years. 

 

And it was partly the same ideological rigidity that caused the copy and paste announcements not to be heard in NVDA and I object for the same reasons.  At least make the add ons part of the installation if they aren't added to the code.  Window-eyes for years, had add ons as part of the installation of the program.  This is nothing radical. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Clare Page

Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:17 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

Hi!

I find the Clipspeak add-on very useful, because without it there is no announcement of when copying and cutting and pasting has been done;

As for the system tray add-on, I hope you don’t mind me asking, but why do you need this add-on, and consider it as essential, when the system tray is perfectly usable without it? I’m not criticizing, just curious as to why you consider it a necessary add-on and think it should be part of NVDA, when NVDA can easily read the system tray on its own?

Bye for now!

From Clare

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: mardi 21 août 2018 16:04
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

I don't use many add ons because the way I use my computer, I don't benefit from most of them.  But the two I use regularly and I consider important enough that they shouldn't be add ons is Clip Speak, which announces copy and past when you copy to and past from the clipboard, and the system tray dialog add on.  The system tray dialog has been a standard part of screen-readers since Windows 2008.  It should be included in NVDA itself but it isn't.

 

As for Clipp Speak, I don't know if there is a new version that solves these problems.  the original version caused some problems in Word and it caused a problem in the Youtube downloader I use even though I wasn't directly using the add on.  So, if you see strange problems you didn't have before, even if they seem unrelated to anything you would expect the add on to cause, try disabling them and see if the problem disappears.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Sociohack AC

Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:37 AM

Subject: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

What are the most useful add-ons for you people?
--
Regards,
Sociohack


Advisory: upcoming changes to StationPlaylist Studio and Windows 10 App Essentials add-ons: handing control over updates to Add-on Updater and NVDA Core

 

Hi all,

 

The following advisory is applicable if you are using StationPlaylist Studio and/or Windows 10 App Essentials. Also, it could serve as some sort of a history lesson behind how Add-on Updater actually came to be, as I think this is essential for understanding NVDA issue 3208 going forward:

 

Sometime this year, I will let Add-on Updater (proof of concept add-on) check for updates for StationPlaylist Studio and Windows 10 App Essentials. At the moment these add-ons are excluded from update checks because they come with their own update check routines, which in turn inspired Add-on Updater and gave ideas for allowing NVDA Core to check for add-on updates (issue 3208).

 

Background: in 2016, I wrote update check feature for StationPlaylist Studio add-on, which connected to my website and downloaded updates. In 2017, this was extended to Windows 10 App Essentials. The update routine for these add-ons were inspired by NVDA’s own update check feature, and add-on update facility was generalized in 2018 to cover other add-ons via Add-on Updater.

 

At the moment these two add-ons require special handling for update checks because:

 

  • StationPlaylist Studio: additional channels are present, including longterm (LTS) and a separate fast ring channel (which corresponded to old NVDA next snapshots in functionality).
  • Windows 10 App Essentials: some people are testing pilot builds, which are development snapshots that takes advantage of latest NVDA changes.

 

In the next few weeks, I’ll make changes to these add-ons so that a single development snapshot build will be released for these, allowing those using current NVDA release channels (stable, beta/RC, alpha, source code) to use old and new features. This will be accomplished by using various attribute checks (hasattr function, for example) and using appropriate code paths. This change also makes it easier for Add-on Updater, and in extension, NVDA Core, to check for add-on updates.

 

Specifically:

 

  • StationPlaylist Studio: instead of Test Drive Fast/Slow rings (pilot and regular snapshots), those on fast ring will be moved to development channel (formerly slow ring). A new checkbox will be used to let development channel users test features under development, and you need to confirm your intention (if you are using fast ring right now, this checkbox will be checked for you). The channels list and other controls for configuring add-on update checks will be disabled if you’ve got Add-on Updater and/or NVDA supports add-on update feature.
  • Windows 10 App Essentials: unless incompatible changes must be tested, separate pilot builds will be discontinued once NVDA 2018.3 stable version hits the air. Also, if you’ve got Add-on Updater and/or NVDA advertises add-on update checks, Windows 10 App Essentials entry will not be added to NVDA preferences menu (that’s because the only thing configurable from that dialog right now is update check feature).
  • Add-on Updater: entries for the two add-ons above will be added once changes are made to these add-ons.

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: NVDA and TortoiseSVN

Rui Fontes
 

Hello!

The second problem was already solved, but the fix was lost when changing to Alpha versions...

It is a already reported problem, but it seems that no one is worried with it...

Best regards,

Rui Fontes
NVDA portuguese team


Às 08:53 de 22/08/2018, Mohammadreza Rashad escreveu:

Hello my friends, I'm using Windows 10 x64 build 1803 and TortoiseSVN
1.10.1 x64 (latest version).
First: When I want to commit something and go to the log editor to
write what I want to do, while navigating to the first character in
edit field, either by home key when I’m on first line or by leftArrow
key, NVDA freezes for 10 seconds. When freeze ends, It says “blank”
instead of first letter. When I want to delete that first letter with
the Backspace key, NVDA freezes forever. Then I have to press
ctrl+alt+n to run it again.
I saw the abovementioned problem with 3 versions of NVDA: 2018.2.1,
2018.3beta3, and latest alpha (15920). I’ll paste the NVDA log file
for technicians to investigate.
Second: I still have problem when I want to check my commit or update
result lists with review cursor. This cursor does not scroll the list
to show the rest. In a list with e.g. 35 items, I can only see the
last 10 items using review cursor.
Thanks in advance
--- NVDA log set to debug warnings ---
INFO - __main__ (11:52:27.204):
Starting NVDA
INFO - core.main (11:52:27.405):
Config dir: C:\Users\Mohammadreza\AppData\Roaming\nvda
INFO - config.ConfigManager._loadConfig (11:52:27.407):
Loading config: C:\Users\Mohammadreza\AppData\Roaming\nvda\nvda.ini
INFO - core.main (11:52:27.515):
NVDA version 2018.2.1
INFO - core.main (11:52:27.516):
Using Windows version 10.0.17134 workstation
INFO - core.main (11:52:27.516):
Using Python version 2.7.15 (v2.7.15:ca079a3ea3, Apr 30 2018,
16:22:17) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)]
INFO - core.main (11:52:27.516):
Using comtypes version 1.1.3
DEBUGWARNING - touchHandler.touchSupported (11:52:27.609):
No touch devices found
INFO - synthDrivers.espeak.SynthDriver.__init__ (11:52:27.825):
Using eSpeak NG version 1.49.1 dev
INFO - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (11:52:27.884):
Loaded synthDriver espeak
INFO - core.main (11:52:27.884):
Using wx version 3.0.2.0 msw (classic)
INFO - brailleInput.initialize (11:52:27.885):
Braille input initialized
INFO - braille.initialize (11:52:27.888):
Using liblouis version 3.5.0
INFO - braille.BrailleHandler.setDisplayByName (11:52:27.888):
Loaded braille display driver noBraille, current display has 0 cells.
INFO - _UIAHandler.UIAHandler.MTAThreadFunc (11:52:28.016):
UIAutomation: IUIAutomation5
DEBUGWARNING - touchHandler.touchSupported (11:52:28.572):
No touch devices found
DEBUGWARNING - braille.getDisplayList (11:52:30.342):
Braille display driver brailliantB reports as unavailable, excluding
DEBUGWARNING - braille.getDisplayList (11:52:30.348):
Braille display driver freedomScientific reports as unavailable, excluding
DEBUGWARNING - braille.getDisplayList (11:52:30.361):
Braille display driver brailliantB reports as unavailable, excluding
DEBUGWARNING - braille.getDisplayList (11:52:30.361):
Braille display driver freedomScientific reports as unavailable, excluding
INFO - external:globalPlugins.brailleExtender.GlobalPlugin.__init__
(11:52:30.375):
BrailleExtender dev-18.08.14-113938 loaded
DEBUGWARNING - touchHandler.touchSupported (11:52:30.387):
No touch devices found
WARNING - globalPlugins.MathMlReader (11:52:30.417):
MathPlayer 4 not available
INFO - core.main (11:52:30.431):
NVDA initialized
INFO - external:globalPlugins.sharedComputer.GlobalPlugin.changeVolumeLevel
(11:52:30.532):
Level speakers at Startup: 24 Percent
INFO - external:globalPlugins.sharedComputer.GlobalPlugin.changeVolumeLevel
(11:52:30.532):
speakers at Startup: Unmuted
INFO - external:globalPlugins.sharedComputer.GlobalPlugin.changeVolumeLevel
(11:52:30.532):
speakers after correction: 24 Percent, Unmuted
INFO - external:globalPlugins.sharedComputer.GlobalPlugin.changeVolumeLevel
(11:52:30.532):
Level speakers at Startup: 24 Percent
INFO - external:globalPlugins.sharedComputer.GlobalPlugin.changeVolumeLevel
(11:52:30.532):
speakers at Startup: Unmuted
INFO - external:globalPlugins.sharedComputer.GlobalPlugin.changeVolumeLevel
(11:52:30.532):
speakers after correction: 24 Percent, Unmuted
* DEBUGWARNING - watchdog._watcher (11:52:52.470):
Trying to recover from freeze, core stack:
File "nvda.pyw", line 212, in <module>
File "core.pyo", line 473, in main
File "wx\_core.pyo", line 8657, in MainLoop
File "wx\_core.pyo", line 7952, in MainLoop
File "core.pyo", line 444, in Notify
File "queueHandler.pyo", line 83, in pumpAll
File "queueHandler.pyo", line 50, in flushQueue
File "scriptHandler.pyo", line 145, in _queueScriptCallback
File "scriptHandler.pyo", line 187, in executeScript
File "editableText.pyo", line 189, in script_caret_moveByCharacter
File "editableText.pyo", line 144, in _caretMovementScriptHelper
File "editableText.pyo", line 129, in _caretScriptPostMovedHelper
File "textInfos\offsets.pyo", line 348, in expand
File "textInfos\offsets.pyo", line 330, in _getUnitOffsets
File "NVDAObjects\window\scintilla.pyo", line 227, in _getCharacterOffsets
--- log ended. ---


Re: Favourite add-ons

Rui Fontes
 

Gene, in Portugal NVDA and Jaws are used by almost 100% of the users...
Maybe Supernova, from Dolphin, Zoom Text and fusion, from AiSquared, and Window-Eyes, have around 5% of users...

Regards,

Rui Fontes


Às 14:19 de 22/08/2018, Gene escreveu:

Not only JAWS has a system tray dialog. Window-eyes had one and System Access had one.  I don't know about Dolphin (spelling but I wouldn't be surprised.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Rui Fontes <mailto:rui.fontes@...>
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:09 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons
Hello!
1 - I agree that a screen reader should not modify the user interface
given by the system where it is running;
2 - That should not interfere with the possibility of screen readers
make available a alternative user interface, when it is usefull.
3 - Systray list addon was created by me, with the help of Rui Batista,
and later modified by Doug Lee.
4 - Why I decided to create it?
4.1 - Most new NVDA users, at least in 2013 in Portugal and Brazil, were
old Jaws users and so they were used to it;
4.2 - Sometimes, when you arrow through Systray, after making Windows+B,
and you get to the Network icon, the system shows a popup, Network
flyout or something like that, and make unusable the systray that way...;
5 - So, for me, the ideological reason is not valid, since the screen
reader is not changing the user interface, but only giving anorther way
to do the same...
6 - Regarding the announcement of copy, cut and paste, here I can
understand the ideological reason, since the operating system do not
announce it in some cases...
6.1 - The system never announces the fact of something being copied to
the clipboard;
6.2 - When something is cutted, a visual information is given, since the
text or file is gone, and NVDA not always give that information to us;
6.3 - When something is pasted, again, some visual information is given,
but not always NVDA announce it...
7 - So, for me, the ideological reason only will  be valid when NVDA
give us the same information given visually.
8 - Untill that, I will defend the announcement of copy, cut and paste,
making all efforts to gave a correct information, but when it will not
be possible to be sure the operation was performed, giving us the
information not confirmed...
Regards,
Rui Fontes
NVDA portuguese team
Às 11:14 de 22/08/2018, Gene escreveu:
> Here is a correction to my last message.
> I said that one reason that copy, cut and paste aren't announced is the
> ideological one I discussed.  That may be incorrect.  I read two
> discussions of this when users requested the feature that are available
> on Ghithub.  I didn't see the ideological reason given.  Instead, the
> mistaken belief was expressed that it can't be known reliably except in
> certain cases, when copying, pasting, and cutting occur. this is
> factually incorrect yet it was believed by the developers for most of
> the years NVDA has been under development.  I don't know what the
> developers believe now.
> The argument was that NVDA would have to be programmed to announce copy,
> paste, and cut when the commands were given without any knowledge of
> whether the actions were actually taken.  So the screen-reader would
> give false information if something prevented the operations from
> occurring.
> As the developer of the add on has demonstrated and as I did in my
> tests, this belief is incorrect and I strongly believe that since the
> belief has been disproven, that the feature should either be placed in
> code or that the add on be distributed and active as part of the
> installation. I don't care which solution would be adopted.
> Gene
> ----- original Message -----
> *From:* Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:49 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons
>
> This message is rather long.  I hope you find it interesting and
> provocative of thought.
> Rarely, one of the icons doesn't work as expect in the system tray. I
> don't remember what now, but I couldn't do something in the system tray
> I should have been able to do but I could in the system tray dialog.
> Aside from that, while it wouldn't be a major problem or inconvenience
> to accustom myself to the system tray interface for regular use, why
> should I have to?  The dialog has been standard in screen-readers since
> Windows 98.  Why wasn't it included in NVDA?  As far as I know, this was
> for ideological reasons, and ideology defeated common sense and a
> reasonable accomodation to something that had been available for so long
> that it is now the standard.
> the reason there was a separate system tray dialog in the first place is
> that the system tray wasn't accessible in Windows 98.  And when the
> system tray dialog was instituted, a lot of people were still using
> Windows 95, where the system tray was also inaccessible.  So the dialog
> started as a way to use an inaccessible feature, not as a redundancy.
> The ideological principle is that screen-readers should never unless
> really necessary, present anything that isn't presented to the sighted
> user in a different format or manner or present any additional
information.
> While I generally agree with this approach, ideology, strictly adhered
> to to the point of absurdity, always fails to deal with reality or
> common sense.
> New users to NVDA should not have to wait until they, maybe, learn about
> add ons to have a feature that has been standard in screen-readers for
> twenty years.
> And it was partly the same ideological rigidity that caused the copy and
> paste announcements not to be heard in NVDA and I object for the same
> reasons.  At least make the add ons part of the installation if they
> aren't added to the code.  Window-eyes for years, had add ons as part of
> the installation of the program.  This is nothing radical.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Clare Page <mailto:clare.page@...>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:17 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons
>
> Hi!
>
> I find the Clipspeak add-on very useful, because without it there is no
> announcement of when copying and cutting and pasting has been done;
>
> As for the system tray add-on, I hope you don’t mind me asking, but why
> do you need this add-on, and consider it as essential, when the system
> tray is perfectly usable without it? I’m not criticizing, just curious
> as to why you consider it a necessary add-on and think it should be part
> of NVDA, when NVDA can easily read the system tray on its own?
>
> Bye for now!
>
>  From Clare
>
> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of
*Gene
> *Sent:* mardi 21 août 2018 16:04
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons
>
> I don't use many add ons because the way I use my computer, I don't
> benefit from most of them. But the two I use regularly and I consider
> important enough that they shouldn't be add ons is Clip Speak, which
> announces copy and past when you copy to and past from the clipboard,
> and the system tray dialog add on. The system tray dialog has been a
> standard part of screen-readers since Windows 2008. It should be
> included in NVDA itself but it isn't.
>
> As for Clipp Speak, I don't know if there is a new version that solves
> these problems.  the original version caused some problems in Word and
> it caused a problem in the Youtube downloader I use even though I wasn't
> directly using the add on. So, if you see strange problems you didn't
> have before, even if they seem unrelated to anything you would expect
> the add on to cause, try disabling them and see if the problem
disappears.
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:*Sociohack AC <mailto:@Akshaya>
>
> *Sent:*Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:37 AM
>
> *To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>
> *Subject:*[nvda] Favourite add-ons
>
> What are the most useful add-ons for you people?
> --
> Regards,
> Sociohack
>
>


Re: NVDA and TortoiseSVN

 

salam.
did you try the program in other versions of windows or did you try
the 32 bit version of the program?
unfortunately i am not familiar with it, but if its not very technical
and it is possible for me to help you in any way, i am ready to help.

On 8/22/18, Mohammadreza Rashad <mohammadreza5712@...> wrote:
Hello my friends, I'm using Windows 10 x64 build 1803 and TortoiseSVN
1.10.1 x64 (latest version).
First: When I want to commit something and go to the log editor to
write what I want to do, while navigating to the first character in
edit field, either by home key when I’m on first line or by leftArrow
key, NVDA freezes for 10 seconds. When freeze ends, It says “blank”
instead of first letter. When I want to delete that first letter with
the Backspace key, NVDA freezes forever. Then I have to press
ctrl+alt+n to run it again.
I saw the abovementioned problem with 3 versions of NVDA: 2018.2.1,
2018.3beta3, and latest alpha (15920). I’ll paste the NVDA log file
for technicians to investigate.
Second: I still have problem when I want to check my commit or update
result lists with review cursor. This cursor does not scroll the list
to show the rest. In a list with e.g. 35 items, I can only see the
last 10 items using review cursor.
Thanks in advance
--- NVDA log set to debug warnings ---
INFO - __main__ (11:52:27.204):
Starting NVDA
INFO - core.main (11:52:27.405):
Config dir: C:\Users\Mohammadreza\AppData\Roaming\nvda
INFO - config.ConfigManager._loadConfig (11:52:27.407):
Loading config: C:\Users\Mohammadreza\AppData\Roaming\nvda\nvda.ini
INFO - core.main (11:52:27.515):
NVDA version 2018.2.1
INFO - core.main (11:52:27.516):
Using Windows version 10.0.17134 workstation
INFO - core.main (11:52:27.516):
Using Python version 2.7.15 (v2.7.15:ca079a3ea3, Apr 30 2018,
16:22:17) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)]
INFO - core.main (11:52:27.516):
Using comtypes version 1.1.3
DEBUGWARNING - touchHandler.touchSupported (11:52:27.609):
No touch devices found
INFO - synthDrivers.espeak.SynthDriver.__init__ (11:52:27.825):
Using eSpeak NG version 1.49.1 dev
INFO - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (11:52:27.884):
Loaded synthDriver espeak
INFO - core.main (11:52:27.884):
Using wx version 3.0.2.0 msw (classic)
INFO - brailleInput.initialize (11:52:27.885):
Braille input initialized
INFO - braille.initialize (11:52:27.888):
Using liblouis version 3.5.0
INFO - braille.BrailleHandler.setDisplayByName (11:52:27.888):
Loaded braille display driver noBraille, current display has 0 cells.
INFO - _UIAHandler.UIAHandler.MTAThreadFunc (11:52:28.016):
UIAutomation: IUIAutomation5
DEBUGWARNING - touchHandler.touchSupported (11:52:28.572):
No touch devices found
DEBUGWARNING - braille.getDisplayList (11:52:30.342):
Braille display driver brailliantB reports as unavailable, excluding
DEBUGWARNING - braille.getDisplayList (11:52:30.348):
Braille display driver freedomScientific reports as unavailable, excluding
DEBUGWARNING - braille.getDisplayList (11:52:30.361):
Braille display driver brailliantB reports as unavailable, excluding
DEBUGWARNING - braille.getDisplayList (11:52:30.361):
Braille display driver freedomScientific reports as unavailable, excluding
INFO - external:globalPlugins.brailleExtender.GlobalPlugin.__init__
(11:52:30.375):
BrailleExtender dev-18.08.14-113938 loaded
DEBUGWARNING - touchHandler.touchSupported (11:52:30.387):
No touch devices found
WARNING - globalPlugins.MathMlReader (11:52:30.417):
MathPlayer 4 not available
INFO - core.main (11:52:30.431):
NVDA initialized
INFO - external:globalPlugins.sharedComputer.GlobalPlugin.changeVolumeLevel
(11:52:30.532):
Level speakers at Startup: 24 Percent
INFO - external:globalPlugins.sharedComputer.GlobalPlugin.changeVolumeLevel
(11:52:30.532):
speakers at Startup: Unmuted
INFO - external:globalPlugins.sharedComputer.GlobalPlugin.changeVolumeLevel
(11:52:30.532):
speakers after correction: 24 Percent, Unmuted
INFO - external:globalPlugins.sharedComputer.GlobalPlugin.changeVolumeLevel
(11:52:30.532):
Level speakers at Startup: 24 Percent
INFO - external:globalPlugins.sharedComputer.GlobalPlugin.changeVolumeLevel
(11:52:30.532):
speakers at Startup: Unmuted
INFO - external:globalPlugins.sharedComputer.GlobalPlugin.changeVolumeLevel
(11:52:30.532):
speakers after correction: 24 Percent, Unmuted
* DEBUGWARNING - watchdog._watcher (11:52:52.470):
Trying to recover from freeze, core stack:
File "nvda.pyw", line 212, in <module>
File "core.pyo", line 473, in main
File "wx\_core.pyo", line 8657, in MainLoop
File "wx\_core.pyo", line 7952, in MainLoop
File "core.pyo", line 444, in Notify
File "queueHandler.pyo", line 83, in pumpAll
File "queueHandler.pyo", line 50, in flushQueue
File "scriptHandler.pyo", line 145, in _queueScriptCallback
File "scriptHandler.pyo", line 187, in executeScript
File "editableText.pyo", line 189, in script_caret_moveByCharacter
File "editableText.pyo", line 144, in _caretMovementScriptHelper
File "editableText.pyo", line 129, in _caretScriptPostMovedHelper
File "textInfos\offsets.pyo", line 348, in expand
File "textInfos\offsets.pyo", line 330, in _getUnitOffsets
File "NVDAObjects\window\scintilla.pyo", line 227, in
_getCharacterOffsets
--- log ended. ---


--
Best wishes,
Mohammadreza Rashad



--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali


Re: Favourite add-ons

Rui Fontes
 

Yes! Sorry Joseph!

Rui Fontes


Às 15:17 de 22/08/2018, Joseph Lee escreveu:

Hi,
Correction: Joseph Lee, not Doug Lee.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rui Fontes
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 5:09 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons
Hello!
1 - I agree that a screen reader should not modify the user interface given by the system where it is running;
2 - That should not interfere with the possibility of screen readers make available a alternative user interface, when it is usefull.
3 - Systray list addon was created by me, with the help of Rui Batista, and later modified by Doug Lee.
4 - Why I decided to create it?
4.1 - Most new NVDA users, at least in 2013 in Portugal and Brazil, were old Jaws users and so they were used to it;
4.2 - Sometimes, when you arrow through Systray, after making Windows+B, and you get to the Network icon, the system shows a popup, Network flyout or something like that, and make unusable the systray that way...;
5 - So, for me, the ideological reason is not valid, since the screen reader is not changing the user interface, but only giving anorther way to do the same...
6 - Regarding the announcement of copy, cut and paste, here I can understand the ideological reason, since the operating system do not announce it in some cases...
6.1 - The system never announces the fact of something being copied to the clipboard;
6.2 - When something is cutted, a visual information is given, since the text or file is gone, and NVDA not always give that information to us;
6.3 - When something is pasted, again, some visual information is given, but not always NVDA announce it...
7 - So, for me, the ideological reason only will be valid when NVDA give us the same information given visually.
8 - Untill that, I will defend the announcement of copy, cut and paste, making all efforts to gave a correct information, but when it will not be possible to be sure the operation was performed, giving us the information not confirmed...
Regards,
Rui Fontes
NVDA portuguese team
Às 11:14 de 22/08/2018, Gene escreveu:
Here is a correction to my last message.
I said that one reason that copy, cut and paste aren't announced is
the ideological one I discussed. That may be incorrect. I read two
discussions of this when users requested the feature that are
available on Ghithub. I didn't see the ideological reason given.
Instead, the mistaken belief was expressed that it can't be known
reliably except in certain cases, when copying, pasting, and cutting
occur. this is factually incorrect yet it was believed by the
developers for most of the years NVDA has been under development. I
don't know what the developers believe now.
The argument was that NVDA would have to be programmed to announce
copy, paste, and cut when the commands were given without any
knowledge of whether the actions were actually taken. So the
screen-reader would give false information if something prevented the
operations from occurring.
As the developer of the add on has demonstrated and as I did in my
tests, this belief is incorrect and I strongly believe that since the
belief has been disproven, that the feature should either be placed in
code or that the add on be distributed and active as part of the
installation. I don't care which solution would be adopted.
Gene
----- original Message -----
*From:* Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:49 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

This message is rather long. I hope you find it interesting and
provocative of thought.
Rarely, one of the icons doesn't work as expect in the system tray. I
don't remember what now, but I couldn't do something in the system
tray I should have been able to do but I could in the system tray dialog.
Aside from that, while it wouldn't be a major problem or inconvenience
to accustom myself to the system tray interface for regular use, why
should I have to? The dialog has been standard in screen-readers
since Windows 98. Why wasn't it included in NVDA? As far as I know,
this was for ideological reasons, and ideology defeated common sense
and a reasonable accomodation to something that had been available for
so long that it is now the standard.
the reason there was a separate system tray dialog in the first place
is that the system tray wasn't accessible in Windows 98. And when the
system tray dialog was instituted, a lot of people were still using
Windows 95, where the system tray was also inaccessible. So the
dialog started as a way to use an inaccessible feature, not as a redundancy.
The ideological principle is that screen-readers should never unless
really necessary, present anything that isn't presented to the sighted
user in a different format or manner or present any additional information.
While I generally agree with this approach, ideology, strictly adhered
to to the point of absurdity, always fails to deal with reality or
common sense.
New users to NVDA should not have to wait until they, maybe, learn
about add ons to have a feature that has been standard in
screen-readers for twenty years.
And it was partly the same ideological rigidity that caused the copy
and paste announcements not to be heard in NVDA and I object for the
same reasons. At least make the add ons part of the installation if
they aren't added to the code. Window-eyes for years, had add ons as
part of the installation of the program. This is nothing radical.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Clare Page <mailto:clare.page@...>
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:17 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

Hi!

I find the Clipspeak add-on very useful, because without it there is
no announcement of when copying and cutting and pasting has been done;

As for the system tray add-on, I hope you don’t mind me asking, but
why do you need this add-on, and consider it as essential, when the
system tray is perfectly usable without it? I’m not criticizing, just
curious as to why you consider it a necessary add-on and think it
should be part of NVDA, when NVDA can easily read the system tray on its own?

Bye for now!

From Clare

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of
*Gene
*Sent:* mardi 21 août 2018 16:04
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

I don't use many add ons because the way I use my computer, I don't
benefit from most of them. But the two I use regularly and I consider
important enough that they shouldn't be add ons is Clip Speak, which
announces copy and past when you copy to and past from the clipboard,
and the system tray dialog add on. The system tray dialog has been a
standard part of screen-readers since Windows 2008. It should be
included in NVDA itself but it isn't.

As for Clipp Speak, I don't know if there is a new version that solves
these problems. the original version caused some problems in Word and
it caused a problem in the Youtube downloader I use even though I
wasn't directly using the add on. So, if you see strange problems you
didn't have before, even if they seem unrelated to anything you would
expect the add on to cause, try disabling them and see if the problem disappears.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

*From:*Sociohack AC <mailto:@Akshaya>

*Sent:*Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:37 AM

*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

*Subject:*[nvda] Favourite add-ons

What are the most useful add-ons for you people?
--
Regards,
Sociohack


Re: Favourite add-ons

Chris Mullins
 

Hi

I use the Clipspeak add on and although the cut, copy and paste functions work OK when I use Control+y in MS Outlook to open the folder list, “Re-Do” is voiced by the add-on even though a Re-Do operation has not been performed.  Similarly, Control+z can be pressed and “Un-Do” is voiced in contexts where it is not a viable keystroke.  This makes me think the keystroke is voiced irrespective of the success/failure of the function it performs.             .,  ,      

 

I am happy to use the add-on as I believe its pros outweigh it’s cons and so long as people are aware of it’s foibles, it’s a useful tool.

 

 

Cheers

Chris

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 22 August 2018 11:14
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

Here is a correction to my last message. 

 

I said that one reason that copy, cut and paste aren't announced is the ideological one I discussed.  That may be incorrect.  I read two discussions of this when users requested the feature that are available on Ghithub.  I didn't see the ideological reason given.  Instead, the mistaken belief was expressed that it can't be known reliably except in certain cases, when copying, pasting, and cutting occur. this is factually incorrect yet it was believed by the developers for most of the years NVDA has been under development.  I don't know what the developers believe now. 

 

The argument was that NVDA would have to be programmed to announce copy, paste, and cut when the commands were given without any knowledge of whether the actions were actually taken.  So the screen-reader would give false information if something prevented the operations from occurring. 

 

As the developer of the add on has demonstrated and as I did in my tests, this belief is incorrect and I strongly believe that since the belief has been disproven, that the feature should either be placed in code or that the add on be distributed and active as part of the installation.  I don't care which solution would be adopted.

 

Gene

----- original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:49 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

This message is rather long.  I hope you find it interesting and provocative of thought.

 

Rarely, one of the icons doesn't work as expect in the system tray. I don't remember what now, but I couldn't do something in the system tray I should have been able to do but I could in the system tray dialog. 

 

Aside from that, while it wouldn't be a major problem or inconvenience to accustom myself to the system tray interface for regular use, why should I have to?  The dialog has been standard in screen-readers since Windows 98.  Why wasn't it included in NVDA?  As far as I know, this was for ideological reasons, and ideology defeated common sense and a reasonable accomodation to something that had been available for so long that it is now the standard. 

 

the reason there was a separate system tray dialog in the first place is that the system tray wasn't accessible in Windows 98.  And when the system tray dialog was instituted, a lot of people were still using Windows 95, where the system tray was also inaccessible.  So the dialog started as a way to use an inaccessible feature, not as a redundancy. 

 

The ideological principle is that screen-readers should never unless really necessary, present anything that isn't presented to the sighted user in a different format or manner or present any additional information. 

 

While I generally agree with this approach, ideology, strictly adhered to to the point of absurdity, always fails to deal with reality or common sense. 

 

New users to NVDA should not have to wait until they, maybe, learn about add ons to have a feature that has been standard in screen-readers for twenty years. 

 

And it was partly the same ideological rigidity that caused the copy and paste announcements not to be heard in NVDA and I object for the same reasons.  At least make the add ons part of the installation if they aren't added to the code.  Window-eyes for years, had add ons as part of the installation of the program.  This is nothing radical. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Clare Page

Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:17 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

Hi!

I find the Clipspeak add-on very useful, because without it there is no announcement of when copying and cutting and pasting has been done;

As for the system tray add-on, I hope you don’t mind me asking, but why do you need this add-on, and consider it as essential, when the system tray is perfectly usable without it? I’m not criticizing, just curious as to why you consider it a necessary add-on and think it should be part of NVDA, when NVDA can easily read the system tray on its own?

Bye for now!

From Clare

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: mardi 21 août 2018 16:04
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

I don't use many add ons because the way I use my computer, I don't benefit from most of them.  But the two I use regularly and I consider important enough that they shouldn't be add ons is Clip Speak, which announces copy and past when you copy to and past from the clipboard, and the system tray dialog add on.  The system tray dialog has been a standard part of screen-readers since Windows 2008.  It should be included in NVDA itself but it isn't.

 

As for Clipp Speak, I don't know if there is a new version that solves these problems.  the original version caused some problems in Word and it caused a problem in the Youtube downloader I use even though I wasn't directly using the add on.  So, if you see strange problems you didn't have before, even if they seem unrelated to anything you would expect the add on to cause, try disabling them and see if the problem disappears.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:37 AM

Subject: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

What are the most useful add-ons for you people?
--
Regards,
Sociohack


"Fast Startup" sound akin to Startup Sound, could we get one?

 

While this is not directly NVDA related, the issue of lack of a "coming back from being shut down when using Fast Startup" sound, as well as the lack of the good, old-fashioned shutdown sound, under Windows 10 comes up repeatedly on virtually every screen reader related group I'm participating in.  

I have just created feedback related to both, and here's the click-through link to the Windows 10 Feedback Hub for it (which, of course, only works for Windows 10 users):

               "Fast Startup" sound akin to Startup Sound, could we get one?

If this is an accessibility issue for you, please review this feedback and upvote it so that it will garner more attention.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: Favourite add-ons

 

Hi,
Correction: Joseph Lee, not Doug Lee.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rui Fontes
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 5:09 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

Hello!

1 - I agree that a screen reader should not modify the user interface given by the system where it is running;

2 - That should not interfere with the possibility of screen readers make available a alternative user interface, when it is usefull.

3 - Systray list addon was created by me, with the help of Rui Batista, and later modified by Doug Lee.

4 - Why I decided to create it?
4.1 - Most new NVDA users, at least in 2013 in Portugal and Brazil, were old Jaws users and so they were used to it;
4.2 - Sometimes, when you arrow through Systray, after making Windows+B, and you get to the Network icon, the system shows a popup, Network flyout or something like that, and make unusable the systray that way...;

5 - So, for me, the ideological reason is not valid, since the screen reader is not changing the user interface, but only giving anorther way to do the same...

6 - Regarding the announcement of copy, cut and paste, here I can understand the ideological reason, since the operating system do not announce it in some cases...

6.1 - The system never announces the fact of something being copied to the clipboard;
6.2 - When something is cutted, a visual information is given, since the text or file is gone, and NVDA not always give that information to us;
6.3 - When something is pasted, again, some visual information is given, but not always NVDA announce it...

7 - So, for me, the ideological reason only will be valid when NVDA give us the same information given visually.

8 - Untill that, I will defend the announcement of copy, cut and paste, making all efforts to gave a correct information, but when it will not be possible to be sure the operation was performed, giving us the information not confirmed...

Regards,

Rui Fontes
NVDA portuguese team



Às 11:14 de 22/08/2018, Gene escreveu:
Here is a correction to my last message.
I said that one reason that copy, cut and paste aren't announced is
the ideological one I discussed. That may be incorrect. I read two
discussions of this when users requested the feature that are
available on Ghithub. I didn't see the ideological reason given.
Instead, the mistaken belief was expressed that it can't be known
reliably except in certain cases, when copying, pasting, and cutting
occur. this is factually incorrect yet it was believed by the
developers for most of the years NVDA has been under development. I
don't know what the developers believe now.
The argument was that NVDA would have to be programmed to announce
copy, paste, and cut when the commands were given without any
knowledge of whether the actions were actually taken. So the
screen-reader would give false information if something prevented the
operations from occurring.
As the developer of the add on has demonstrated and as I did in my
tests, this belief is incorrect and I strongly believe that since the
belief has been disproven, that the feature should either be placed in
code or that the add on be distributed and active as part of the
installation. I don't care which solution would be adopted.
Gene
----- original Message -----
*From:* Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:49 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

This message is rather long. I hope you find it interesting and
provocative of thought.
Rarely, one of the icons doesn't work as expect in the system tray. I
don't remember what now, but I couldn't do something in the system
tray I should have been able to do but I could in the system tray dialog.
Aside from that, while it wouldn't be a major problem or inconvenience
to accustom myself to the system tray interface for regular use, why
should I have to? The dialog has been standard in screen-readers
since Windows 98. Why wasn't it included in NVDA? As far as I know,
this was for ideological reasons, and ideology defeated common sense
and a reasonable accomodation to something that had been available for
so long that it is now the standard.
the reason there was a separate system tray dialog in the first place
is that the system tray wasn't accessible in Windows 98. And when the
system tray dialog was instituted, a lot of people were still using
Windows 95, where the system tray was also inaccessible. So the
dialog started as a way to use an inaccessible feature, not as a redundancy.
The ideological principle is that screen-readers should never unless
really necessary, present anything that isn't presented to the sighted
user in a different format or manner or present any additional information.
While I generally agree with this approach, ideology, strictly adhered
to to the point of absurdity, always fails to deal with reality or
common sense.
New users to NVDA should not have to wait until they, maybe, learn
about add ons to have a feature that has been standard in
screen-readers for twenty years.
And it was partly the same ideological rigidity that caused the copy
and paste announcements not to be heard in NVDA and I object for the
same reasons. At least make the add ons part of the installation if
they aren't added to the code. Window-eyes for years, had add ons as
part of the installation of the program. This is nothing radical.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Clare Page <mailto:clare.page@...>
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:17 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

Hi!

I find the Clipspeak add-on very useful, because without it there is
no announcement of when copying and cutting and pasting has been done;

As for the system tray add-on, I hope you don’t mind me asking, but
why do you need this add-on, and consider it as essential, when the
system tray is perfectly usable without it? I’m not criticizing, just
curious as to why you consider it a necessary add-on and think it
should be part of NVDA, when NVDA can easily read the system tray on its own?

Bye for now!

From Clare

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of
*Gene
*Sent:* mardi 21 août 2018 16:04
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

I don't use many add ons because the way I use my computer, I don't
benefit from most of them. But the two I use regularly and I consider
important enough that they shouldn't be add ons is Clip Speak, which
announces copy and past when you copy to and past from the clipboard,
and the system tray dialog add on. The system tray dialog has been a
standard part of screen-readers since Windows 2008. It should be
included in NVDA itself but it isn't.

As for Clipp Speak, I don't know if there is a new version that solves
these problems. the original version caused some problems in Word and
it caused a problem in the Youtube downloader I use even though I
wasn't directly using the add on. So, if you see strange problems you
didn't have before, even if they seem unrelated to anything you would
expect the add on to cause, try disabling them and see if the problem disappears.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

*From:*Sociohack AC <mailto:@Akshaya>

*Sent:*Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:37 AM

*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

*Subject:*[nvda] Favourite add-ons

What are the most useful add-ons for you people?
--
Regards,
Sociohack


Re: Favourite add-ons

Ralf Kefferpuetz
 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Noah Carver via Groups.Io
Sent: Mittwoch, 22. August 2018 14:35
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

Can I have the link for Total Commander enhanced?

 

On 8/21/2018 10:37, Ralf Kefferpuetz wrote:

Hello,

 

My top 12 addOns are:

Application Dictionary

Golden cursor

IdentNav

Input lock

Instant translate

Notepad++

Outlook enhanced

Remote support

SentenceNav

Sonos for Sonos desktop

Speech history

Total Commander enhanced

 

Best regards,

  Ralf

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sociohack AC
Sent: Dienstag, 21. August 2018 15:37
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

What are the most useful add-ons for you people?
--
Regards,
Sociohack

 


Re: Favourite add-ons

Gene
 

Not only JAWS has a system tray dialog.  Window-eyes had one and System Access had one.  I don't know about Dolphin (spelling but I wouldn't be surprised. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Rui Fontes
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

Hello!

1 - I agree that a screen reader should not modify the user interface
given by the system where it is running;

2 - That should not interfere with the possibility of screen readers
make available a alternative user interface, when it is usefull.

3 - Systray list addon was created by me, with the help of Rui Batista,
and later modified by Doug Lee.

4 - Why I decided to create it?
4.1 - Most new NVDA users, at least in 2013 in Portugal and Brazil, were
old Jaws users and so they were used to it;
4.2 - Sometimes, when you arrow through Systray, after making Windows+B,
and you get to the Network icon, the system shows a popup, Network
flyout or something like that, and make unusable the systray that way...;

5 - So, for me, the ideological reason is not valid, since the screen
reader is not changing the user interface, but only giving anorther way
to do the same...

6 - Regarding the announcement of copy, cut and paste, here I can
understand the ideological reason, since the operating system do not
announce it in some cases...

6.1 - The system never announces the fact of something being copied to
the clipboard;
6.2 - When something is cutted, a visual information is given, since the
text or file is gone, and NVDA not always give that information to us;
6.3 - When something is pasted, again, some visual information is given,
but not always NVDA announce it...

7 - So, for me, the ideological reason only will  be valid when NVDA
give us the same information given visually.

8 - Untill that, I will defend the announcement of copy, cut and paste,
making all efforts to gave a correct information, but when it will not
be possible to be sure the operation was performed, giving us the
information not confirmed...

Regards,

Rui Fontes
NVDA portuguese team



Às 11:14 de 22/08/2018, Gene escreveu:
> Here is a correction to my last message.
> I said that one reason that copy, cut and paste aren't announced is the
> ideological one I discussed.  That may be incorrect.  I read two
> discussions of this when users requested the feature that are available
> on Ghithub.  I didn't see the ideological reason given.  Instead, the
> mistaken belief was expressed that it can't be known reliably except in
> certain cases, when copying, pasting, and cutting occur. this is
> factually incorrect yet it was believed by the developers for most of
> the years NVDA has been under development.  I don't know what the
> developers believe now.
> The argument was that NVDA would have to be programmed to announce copy,
> paste, and cut when the commands were given without any knowledge of
> whether the actions were actually taken.  So the screen-reader would
> give false information if something prevented the operations from
> occurring.
> As the developer of the add on has demonstrated and as I did in my
> tests, this belief is incorrect and I strongly believe that since the
> belief has been disproven, that the feature should either be placed in
> code or that the add on be distributed and active as part of the
> installation. I don't care which solution would be adopted.
> Gene
> ----- original Message -----
> *From:* Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:49 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons
>
> This message is rather long.  I hope you find it interesting and
> provocative of thought.
> Rarely, one of the icons doesn't work as expect in the system tray. I
> don't remember what now, but I couldn't do something in the system tray
> I should have been able to do but I could in the system tray dialog.
> Aside from that, while it wouldn't be a major problem or inconvenience
> to accustom myself to the system tray interface for regular use, why
> should I have to?  The dialog has been standard in screen-readers since
> Windows 98.  Why wasn't it included in NVDA?  As far as I know, this was
> for ideological reasons, and ideology defeated common sense and a
> reasonable accomodation to something that had been available for so long
> that it is now the standard.
> the reason there was a separate system tray dialog in the first place is
> that the system tray wasn't accessible in Windows 98.  And when the
> system tray dialog was instituted, a lot of people were still using
> Windows 95, where the system tray was also inaccessible.  So the dialog
> started as a way to use an inaccessible feature, not as a redundancy.
> The ideological principle is that screen-readers should never unless
> really necessary, present anything that isn't presented to the sighted
> user in a different format or manner or present any additional information.
> While I generally agree with this approach, ideology, strictly adhered
> to to the point of absurdity, always fails to deal with reality or
> common sense.
> New users to NVDA should not have to wait until they, maybe, learn about
> add ons to have a feature that has been standard in screen-readers for
> twenty years.
> And it was partly the same ideological rigidity that caused the copy and
> paste announcements not to be heard in NVDA and I object for the same
> reasons.  At least make the add ons part of the installation if they
> aren't added to the code.  Window-eyes for years, had add ons as part of
> the installation of the program.  This is nothing radical.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Clare Page <mailto:clare.page@...>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:17 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons
>
> Hi!
>
> I find the Clipspeak add-on very useful, because without it there is no
> announcement of when copying and cutting and pasting has been done;
>
> As for the system tray add-on, I hope you don’t mind me asking, but why
> do you need this add-on, and consider it as essential, when the system
> tray is perfectly usable without it? I’m not criticizing, just curious
> as to why you consider it a necessary add-on and think it should be part
> of NVDA, when NVDA can easily read the system tray on its own?
>
> Bye for now!
>
>  From Clare
>
> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of *Gene
> *Sent:* mardi 21 août 2018 16:04
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons
>
> I don't use many add ons because the way I use my computer, I don't
> benefit from most of them. But the two I use regularly and I consider
> important enough that they shouldn't be add ons is Clip Speak, which
> announces copy and past when you copy to and past from the clipboard,
> and the system tray dialog add on.  The system tray dialog has been a
> standard part of screen-readers since Windows 2008. It should be
> included in NVDA itself but it isn't.
>
> As for Clipp Speak, I don't know if there is a new version that solves
> these problems.  the original version caused some problems in Word and
> it caused a problem in the Youtube downloader I use even though I wasn't
> directly using the add on. So, if you see strange problems you didn't
> have before, even if they seem unrelated to anything you would expect
> the add on to cause, try disabling them and see if the problem disappears.
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:*Sociohack AC <mailto:acsociopath@...>
>
> *Sent:*Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:37 AM
>
> *To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>
> *Subject:*[nvda] Favourite add-ons
>
> What are the most useful add-ons for you people?
> --
> Regards,
> Sociohack
>
>



Re: Favourite add-ons

 

Can I have the link for Total Commander enhanced?


On 8/21/2018 10:37, Ralf Kefferpuetz wrote:

Hello,

 

My top 12 addOns are:

Application Dictionary

Golden cursor

IdentNav

Input lock

Instant translate

Notepad++

Outlook enhanced

Remote support

SentenceNav

Sonos for Sonos desktop

Speech history

Total Commander enhanced

 

Best regards,

  Ralf

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sociohack AC
Sent: Dienstag, 21. August 2018 15:37
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

What are the most useful add-ons for you people?
--
Regards,
Sociohack



NVDA keeping another process open

Felix G.
 

Hi!
Has anyone else noticed that when NVDA is running, it seems to keep
some other processes permanently open? For example, there is a
development environment, let's call it x, which I use for creating a
software component. Strangely, when I open x and then close it again,
it stays running as a process in task manager, but as soon as I close
NVDA it also closes. I've tried with two other screen readers and they
don't affect it in this way, that is, with those running, the process
stops immediately when I close its window. So NVDA seems to do
something to certain other processes which keeps them from
terminating.
I noticed the same with Outlook 2007, by the way, which I am still
using on one machine. That also won't close as long as NVDA is
running, but as soon as I exit NVDA, Outlook closes along with it.
Other screen readers don't affect Outlook in this way.
Best,
Felix


Re: Favourite add-ons

Rui Fontes
 

Hello!

1 - I agree that a screen reader should not modify the user interface given by the system where it is running;

2 - That should not interfere with the possibility of screen readers make available a alternative user interface, when it is usefull.

3 - Systray list addon was created by me, with the help of Rui Batista, and later modified by Doug Lee.

4 - Why I decided to create it?
4.1 - Most new NVDA users, at least in 2013 in Portugal and Brazil, were old Jaws users and so they were used to it;
4.2 - Sometimes, when you arrow through Systray, after making Windows+B, and you get to the Network icon, the system shows a popup, Network flyout or something like that, and make unusable the systray that way...;

5 - So, for me, the ideological reason is not valid, since the screen reader is not changing the user interface, but only giving anorther way to do the same...

6 - Regarding the announcement of copy, cut and paste, here I can understand the ideological reason, since the operating system do not announce it in some cases...

6.1 - The system never announces the fact of something being copied to the clipboard;
6.2 - When something is cutted, a visual information is given, since the text or file is gone, and NVDA not always give that information to us;
6.3 - When something is pasted, again, some visual information is given, but not always NVDA announce it...

7 - So, for me, the ideological reason only will be valid when NVDA give us the same information given visually.

8 - Untill that, I will defend the announcement of copy, cut and paste, making all efforts to gave a correct information, but when it will not be possible to be sure the operation was performed, giving us the information not confirmed...

Regards,

Rui Fontes
NVDA portuguese team



Às 11:14 de 22/08/2018, Gene escreveu:

Here is a correction to my last message.
I said that one reason that copy, cut and paste aren't announced is the ideological one I discussed.  That may be incorrect.  I read two discussions of this when users requested the feature that are available on Ghithub.  I didn't see the ideological reason given.  Instead, the mistaken belief was expressed that it can't be known reliably except in certain cases, when copying, pasting, and cutting occur. this is factually incorrect yet it was believed by the developers for most of the years NVDA has been under development.  I don't know what the developers believe now.
The argument was that NVDA would have to be programmed to announce copy, paste, and cut when the commands were given without any knowledge of whether the actions were actually taken.  So the screen-reader would give false information if something prevented the operations from occurring.
As the developer of the add on has demonstrated and as I did in my tests, this belief is incorrect and I strongly believe that since the belief has been disproven, that the feature should either be placed in code or that the add on be distributed and active as part of the installation. I don't care which solution would be adopted.
Gene
----- original Message -----
*From:* Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:49 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons
This message is rather long.  I hope you find it interesting and provocative of thought.
Rarely, one of the icons doesn't work as expect in the system tray. I don't remember what now, but I couldn't do something in the system tray I should have been able to do but I could in the system tray dialog.
Aside from that, while it wouldn't be a major problem or inconvenience to accustom myself to the system tray interface for regular use, why should I have to?  The dialog has been standard in screen-readers since Windows 98.  Why wasn't it included in NVDA?  As far as I know, this was for ideological reasons, and ideology defeated common sense and a reasonable accomodation to something that had been available for so long that it is now the standard.
the reason there was a separate system tray dialog in the first place is that the system tray wasn't accessible in Windows 98.  And when the system tray dialog was instituted, a lot of people were still using Windows 95, where the system tray was also inaccessible.  So the dialog started as a way to use an inaccessible feature, not as a redundancy.
The ideological principle is that screen-readers should never unless really necessary, present anything that isn't presented to the sighted user in a different format or manner or present any additional information.
While I generally agree with this approach, ideology, strictly adhered to to the point of absurdity, always fails to deal with reality or common sense.
New users to NVDA should not have to wait until they, maybe, learn about add ons to have a feature that has been standard in screen-readers for twenty years.
And it was partly the same ideological rigidity that caused the copy and paste announcements not to be heard in NVDA and I object for the same reasons.  At least make the add ons part of the installation if they aren't added to the code.  Window-eyes for years, had add ons as part of the installation of the program.  This is nothing radical.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Clare Page <mailto:clare.page@...>
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:17 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons
Hi!
I find the Clipspeak add-on very useful, because without it there is no announcement of when copying and cutting and pasting has been done;
As for the system tray add-on, I hope you don’t mind me asking, but why do you need this add-on, and consider it as essential, when the system tray is perfectly usable without it? I’m not criticizing, just curious as to why you consider it a necessary add-on and think it should be part of NVDA, when NVDA can easily read the system tray on its own?
Bye for now!
From Clare
*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of *Gene
*Sent:* mardi 21 août 2018 16:04
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons
I don't use many add ons because the way I use my computer, I don't benefit from most of them. But the two I use regularly and I consider important enough that they shouldn't be add ons is Clip Speak, which announces copy and past when you copy to and past from the clipboard, and the system tray dialog add on.  The system tray dialog has been a standard part of screen-readers since Windows 2008. It should be included in NVDA itself but it isn't.
As for Clipp Speak, I don't know if there is a new version that solves these problems.  the original version caused some problems in Word and it caused a problem in the Youtube downloader I use even though I wasn't directly using the add on. So, if you see strange problems you didn't have before, even if they seem unrelated to anything you would expect the add on to cause, try disabling them and see if the problem disappears.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:*Sociohack AC <mailto:@Akshaya>
*Sent:*Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:37 AM
*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:*[nvda] Favourite add-ons
What are the most useful add-ons for you people?
--
Regards,
Sociohack


Re: Favourite add-ons

Ralf Kefferpuetz
 

Hello,

It makes lots of notepad++ functions accessible.
Please see here:
https://github.com/derekriemer/nvda-notepadPlusPlus/releases

regards,
Ralf

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Christian Schoepplein
Sent: Mittwoch, 22. August 2018 11:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

Hej,

what does the Notepad++ plugin do in detail and where can I get it? IIRC I did not see it on the regular addon page...

Cheers and TIA,

Schoepp

On Tue, August 21, 2018 4:37 pm, Ralf Kefferpuetz wrote:
Hello,




My top 12 addOns are:


Application Dictionary


Golden cursor


IdentNav


Input lock


Instant translate


Notepad++


Outlook enhanced


Remote support


SentenceNav


Sonos for Sonos desktop


Speech history


Total Commander enhanced




Best regards,


Ralf




From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sociohack
AC
Sent: Dienstag, 21. August 2018 15:37
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Favourite add-ons




What are the most useful add-ons for you people?
--
Regards,
Sociohack









Re: Favourite add-ons

Gene
 

Here is a correction to my last message. 
 
I said that one reason that copy, cut and paste aren't announced is the ideological one I discussed.  That may be incorrect.  I read two discussions of this when users requested the feature that are available on Ghithub.  I didn't see the ideological reason given.  Instead, the mistaken belief was expressed that it can't be known reliably except in certain cases, when copying, pasting, and cutting occur. this is factually incorrect yet it was believed by the developers for most of the years NVDA has been under development.  I don't know what the developers believe now. 
 
The argument was that NVDA would have to be programmed to announce copy, paste, and cut when the commands were given without any knowledge of whether the actions were actually taken.  So the screen-reader would give false information if something prevented the operations from occurring. 
 
As the developer of the add on has demonstrated and as I did in my tests, this belief is incorrect and I strongly believe that since the belief has been disproven, that the feature should either be placed in code or that the add on be distributed and active as part of the installation.  I don't care which solution would be adopted.
 
Gene
----- original Message -----

From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

This message is rather long.  I hope you find it interesting and provocative of thought.
 
Rarely, one of the icons doesn't work as expect in the system tray. I don't remember what now, but I couldn't do something in the system tray I should have been able to do but I could in the system tray dialog. 
 
Aside from that, while it wouldn't be a major problem or inconvenience to accustom myself to the system tray interface for regular use, why should I have to?  The dialog has been standard in screen-readers since Windows 98.  Why wasn't it included in NVDA?  As far as I know, this was for ideological reasons, and ideology defeated common sense and a reasonable accomodation to something that had been available for so long that it is now the standard. 
 
the reason there was a separate system tray dialog in the first place is that the system tray wasn't accessible in Windows 98.  And when the system tray dialog was instituted, a lot of people were still using Windows 95, where the system tray was also inaccessible.  So the dialog started as a way to use an inaccessible feature, not as a redundancy. 
 
The ideological principle is that screen-readers should never unless really necessary, present anything that isn't presented to the sighted user in a different format or manner or present any additional information. 
 
While I generally agree with this approach, ideology, strictly adhered to to the point of absurdity, always fails to deal with reality or common sense. 
 
New users to NVDA should not have to wait until they, maybe, learn about add ons to have a feature that has been standard in screen-readers for twenty years. 
 
And it was partly the same ideological rigidity that caused the copy and paste announcements not to be heard in NVDA and I object for the same reasons.  At least make the add ons part of the installation if they aren't added to the code.  Window-eyes for years, had add ons as part of the installation of the program.  This is nothing radical. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Clare Page
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:17 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

Hi!

I find the Clipspeak add-on very useful, because without it there is no announcement of when copying and cutting and pasting has been done;

As for the system tray add-on, I hope you don’t mind me asking, but why do you need this add-on, and consider it as essential, when the system tray is perfectly usable without it? I’m not criticizing, just curious as to why you consider it a necessary add-on and think it should be part of NVDA, when NVDA can easily read the system tray on its own?

Bye for now!

From Clare

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: mardi 21 août 2018 16:04
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

I don't use many add ons because the way I use my computer, I don't benefit from most of them.  But the two I use regularly and I consider important enough that they shouldn't be add ons is Clip Speak, which announces copy and past when you copy to and past from the clipboard, and the system tray dialog add on.  The system tray dialog has been a standard part of screen-readers since Windows 2008.  It should be included in NVDA itself but it isn't.

 

As for Clipp Speak, I don't know if there is a new version that solves these problems.  the original version caused some problems in Word and it caused a problem in the Youtube downloader I use even though I wasn't directly using the add on.  So, if you see strange problems you didn't have before, even if they seem unrelated to anything you would expect the add on to cause, try disabling them and see if the problem disappears.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Sociohack AC

Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:37 AM

Subject: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

What are the most useful add-ons for you people?
--
Regards,
Sociohack


Re: Favourite add-ons

Gene
 

This message is rather long.  I hope you find it interesting and provocative of thought.
 
Rarely, one of the icons doesn't work as expect in the system tray. I don't remember what now, but I couldn't do something in the system tray I should have been able to do but I could in the system tray dialog. 
 
Aside from that, while it wouldn't be a major problem or inconvenience to accustom myself to the system tray interface for regular use, why should I have to?  The dialog has been standard in screen-readers since Windows 98.  Why wasn't it included in NVDA?  As far as I know, this was for ideological reasons, and ideology defeated common sense and a reasonable accomodation to something that had been available for so long that it is now the standard. 
 
the reason there was a separate system tray dialog in the first place is that the system tray wasn't accessible in Windows 98.  And when the system tray dialog was instituted, a lot of people were still using Windows 95, where the system tray was also inaccessible.  So the dialog started as a way to use an inaccessible feature, not as a redundancy. 
 
The ideological principle is that screen-readers should never unless really necessary, present anything that isn't presented to the sighted user in a different format or manner or present any additional information. 
 
While I generally agree with this approach, ideology, strictly adhered to to the point of absurdity, always fails to deal with reality or common sense. 
 
New users to NVDA should not have to wait until they, maybe, learn about add ons to have a feature that has been standard in screen-readers for twenty years. 
 
And it was partly the same ideological rigidity that caused the copy and paste announcements not to be heard in NVDA and I object for the same reasons.  At least make the add ons part of the installation if they aren't added to the code.  Window-eyes for years, had add ons as part of the installation of the program.  This is nothing radical. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Clare Page
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:17 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

Hi!

I find the Clipspeak add-on very useful, because without it there is no announcement of when copying and cutting and pasting has been done;

As for the system tray add-on, I hope you don’t mind me asking, but why do you need this add-on, and consider it as essential, when the system tray is perfectly usable without it? I’m not criticizing, just curious as to why you consider it a necessary add-on and think it should be part of NVDA, when NVDA can easily read the system tray on its own?

Bye for now!

From Clare

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: mardi 21 août 2018 16:04
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

I don't use many add ons because the way I use my computer, I don't benefit from most of them.  But the two I use regularly and I consider important enough that they shouldn't be add ons is Clip Speak, which announces copy and past when you copy to and past from the clipboard, and the system tray dialog add on.  The system tray dialog has been a standard part of screen-readers since Windows 2008.  It should be included in NVDA itself but it isn't.

 

As for Clipp Speak, I don't know if there is a new version that solves these problems.  the original version caused some problems in Word and it caused a problem in the Youtube downloader I use even though I wasn't directly using the add on.  So, if you see strange problems you didn't have before, even if they seem unrelated to anything you would expect the add on to cause, try disabling them and see if the problem disappears.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Sociohack AC

Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:37 AM

Subject: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

What are the most useful add-ons for you people?
--
Regards,
Sociohack


Re: Favourite add-ons

Christian Schoepplein
 

Hej,

what does the Notepad++ plugin do in detail and where can I get it? IIRC I
did not see it on the regular addon page...

Cheers and TIA,

Schoepp

On Tue, August 21, 2018 4:37 pm, Ralf Kefferpuetz wrote:
Hello,




My top 12 addOns are:


Application Dictionary


Golden cursor


IdentNav


Input lock


Instant translate


Notepad++


Outlook enhanced


Remote support


SentenceNav


Sonos for Sonos desktop


Speech history


Total Commander enhanced




Best regards,


Ralf




From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sociohack AC
Sent: Dienstag, 21. August 2018 15:37
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Favourite add-ons




What are the most useful add-ons for you people?
--
Regards,
Sociohack









Re: Favourite add-ons

Clare Page <clare.page@...>
 

Hi!

I find the Clipspeak add-on very useful, because without it there is no announcement of when copying and cutting and pasting has been done;

As for the system tray add-on, I hope you don’t mind me asking, but why do you need this add-on, and consider it as essential, when the system tray is perfectly usable without it? I’m not criticizing, just curious as to why you consider it a necessary add-on and think it should be part of NVDA, when NVDA can easily read the system tray on its own?

Bye for now!

From Clare

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: mardi 21 août 2018 16:04
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

I don't use many add ons because the way I use my computer, I don't benefit from most of them.  But the two I use regularly and I consider important enough that they shouldn't be add ons is Clip Speak, which announces copy and past when you copy to and past from the clipboard, and the system tray dialog add on.  The system tray dialog has been a standard part of screen-readers since Windows 2008.  It should be included in NVDA itself but it isn't.

 

As for Clipp Speak, I don't know if there is a new version that solves these problems.  the original version caused some problems in Word and it caused a problem in the Youtube downloader I use even though I wasn't directly using the add on.  So, if you see strange problems you didn't have before, even if they seem unrelated to anything you would expect the add on to cause, try disabling them and see if the problem disappears.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:37 AM

Subject: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

 

What are the most useful add-ons for you people?
--
Regards,
Sociohack