Date   

Detecting misalignment in Microsoft Word tables

Pranav Lal
 

Hi all,

Whenever I write text in a table, in Microsoft Word (any version including
word in office 365) I find that the table cell widths are misaligned that
is, some cells are too small, some are too big.
In addition, the text within these cells is not aligned correctly, Sighted
users seem to use the mouse to fix this.
Is there any way in NVDA to first detect a badly formatted table?
To reproduce this problem, do the following.

1. Create a table in Microsoft Word using the insert table menu.
I have selected to use fixed cell widths.
2. Type the contents of your table.
3. Be sure to insert a row into the table.
4. Type some more text.

Check with a sighted user, the table's formatting does not look right.

I realize I should be more specific but cannot be because my sighted
colleagues are unable to give me better descriptions.

Pranav


Re: I could use the following NVDA help please

Tony Ballou
 

Hi Ron,

 

Since I’m not sure of how familiar you are with NVDA I’ll give you all the steps in as orderly a fashion as I can. 

 

Both of the changes that you want to make are in the settings menu of NVDA.

 

To get there, press insert-N, the NVDA menu comes up and from there arrow down once for preferences sub-menu. Then press the right arrow and NVDA will say Settings. 

Press enter then from the list of categories arrow down once to the speech option and press tab which will take you into the speech properties dialog box.  The first control in there is an edit box which tells you what synthesizer you’re currently using.  If you tab once, NVDA will say change button.  Hit space on that and when the dialog box opens choose the synthesizer you want from the combo box then tab to ok. The change will take effect and from this point, you can then customize the voice settings. As you tab through the fields, you’ll see options to adjust the voice that you want, it’s speech rate, pitch, and volume, etc.  Once you have those controls set the way that you want, you can tab through the fields to the say capitals checkbox and check that. Once that’s checked, tab to apply then from there shift tab to ok and that’s it. 

 

Hope this helps.

Tony   

 

From: Ron Kolesar
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 2:20 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] I could use the following NVDA help please

 

.               Hello, from Ron Kolesar.

I had to have my pc formatted.

How can I do the following two things within NVDA?

  1. How can I have NVDA say cap when I do a uppercased letter?
  2. How can I change the voice to a female voice?

Many thanks.

Ron KR3DOG

 


Admin's Note: Moderator Feedback, Leaving List #adminnotice

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello everyone,

Imagine my shock when I look through list emails today, to see a number of individuals posting messages regarding the moderator. Imagine my shock when one thread was closed, and another was reopened to do the exact same thing. Let me make a few things clear.
  • This list is not a democracy. Even democracies have rules, so even if it was, I would be saying the same thing. A few years ago, we tried the democratic thing, but we got no engagement from people on the list. When I asked people for recommendations of moderators, I received very few, and when asking people to vote, nobody did. Therefore, I am list owner, Brian is moderator, and we both are volunteers and try our best to make sure that this list is run in a consistent way in accordance with the NVAccess code of conduct, with Groups.io rules, and with general list netiquette.
  • I love receiving feedback from list members. Some of you have sent feedback, and it is truly appreciated, no matter whether if it is good or bad, no matter whether I agree with it or not. I will respond to your feedback, we can engage in a dialog, and even if we disagree, I hope you will walk away with the reasoning as to why, and we can understand one another. I will hear you out though, and Brian does the same.
  • It is a list rule that feedback is to be sent to the owner, nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io and not to the list. Why? Because the purpose of this list is to discuss NVDA, to help out new users and existing ones alike, to provide a space for anyone wishing to discuss NVDA, as do over 1,300 members. If lots of people start sending off-topic messages, this list would not be serving its intended purpose.
  • If you wish to leave, leave. I don't care. You won't hurt my feelings. If you wish to talk out your grievances before leaving, reach out to the owner address. If you wish to leave and wish to complain, I don't care, and your comments aren't welcome on list. I will put the entire list under lock-down if necessary, but I hope I don't have to.
  • If you don't like me or Brian, again, I don't care. I am not on this list to be liked. If you don't agree with something, please let us know so we can discuss it. If we mess up, as we are bound to do as humans, please let us know, and we will rectify any mistake, with public apologies as needed, as we have done in the past.
  • If you are going to be a child, violate the rules, complain publicly, your posting privileges will be moderated. 

Let me be clear. Brian has my support. If you wish to leave and disagree with what I've said here, or with the list rules, please do so.

Now, let's get back to NVDA discussion, shall we?

--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
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To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

David Goldfield
 

Hi, Steve.
In no way do I wish to invalidate your experiences with NVDA and Outlook. In some respects NVDA's access to Outlook messages could be improved. However, I just received an email newsletter from AIRA with headings separating each announcement. NVDA identified the headings as I would expect. How did you add headings to your test email? For reference I'm using Outlook 365 with RC 1 of NVDA 2020.4.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019

WWW.DavidGoldfield.org
On 2/10/2021 6:25 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi all,

 

I am testing an Email marketing platform called EmailOctopus for use in my business.

 

One thing I noticed about NVDA, having been a JAWS user for years, but now moving over more to NVDA, is that it doesn’t render HTML Emails correctly.

 

For example, you never see headings in Emails.  If I send myself a test message and read it in JAWS, I can jump with H to all the headings and know that the formatting is correct.  With NVDA, I just get No Next Heading.  In fact, all the formatting is completely shot.

 

Is there any way we could get NVDA to render Outlook HTML messages as they should be rendered, with headings intact?

 

Thanks for any help.

 

All the best


Steve

 

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: steve@...

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

 



NVDA and Kryterion

Janet Brandly
 

Hello all,

 

I have just received permission to try NVDA with Kryterion which is a global testing platform used by many educational institutions for their [program tests/exams. Until now, blind students needing to take exams through Kryterion either had to use an in-person reader or use a laptop especially provided for them with JAWS installed on it. Also, blind students have had to take tests at a specified testing center. Sighted students, on the other hand, are able to test at home and are proctered buy using a webcam. I understand that, this past summer, the NFB brought issues of unequal access to Kryterion forward ant the results were not satisfactory. If Kryterion can be used with NVDA, this will remove barriers to blind people who cannot afford, or don’t want to use JAWS. Has anyone else had similar experiences with Kryterion or other global testing platforms?

 

Janet


Re: I could use the following NVDA help please

Ron Kolesar
 

To Gene and to all who tried to help me out.
I have now been able to make the changes that I wanted within NVDA.
Many thanks to all.
Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 14:27
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I could use the following NVDA help please

It is specific to the voice you are using. If you change voices, you asked
about a female voice, you will have to do this again.
Open the voice settings dialog with control NVDA key v.
Tab a lot of times. You will find a check box that says something like say
cap for capital letters. Check it with the space bar, then press enter.
The dialog will close and the setting will be on.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Kolesar
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 1:20 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] I could use the following NVDA help please



. Hello, from Ron Kolesar.

I had to have my pc formatted.

How can I do the following two things within NVDA?

How can I have NVDA say cap when I do a uppercased letter?
How can I change the voice to a female voice?

Many thanks.

Ron KR3DOG


Re: annoying behavior with speak word

Gene
 

There is no setting in keyboard to do what is requested. the desired behavior is to read an entire word if you type a wordd, space, badckspace to make a correction, make it, then space again.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Afik Souffir
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 2:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] annoying behavior with speak word



Yes, go to Preferences, and then settings, in that search for Keyboard.





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 10:50:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] annoying behavior with speak word


Hi all,
Is there any way to change the way NVDA speaks when you tell it to
speak words after they are typed? In my last message to the list, I
accidentally typed Outll a couple of times when I meant to type
Outlook. When backspacing to correct my error then finished typing the
word, instead of saying Outlook, it says "ook." Is there any way to
change this?
Bob


Re: annoying behavior with speak word

Gene
 

I really doubt it. It speaks what you have typed since the last time. It isn't programmed to speak the full unit, nor is it aware of it. It only speaks what you typed since you started typing and spaced.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 2:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] annoying behavior with speak word

Hi all,
Is there any way to change the way NVDA speaks when you tell it to
speak words after they are typed? In my last message to the list, I
accidentally typed Outll a couple of times when I meant to type
Outlook. When backspacing to correct my error then finished typing the
word, instead of saying Outlook, it says "ook." Is there any way to
change this?
Bob


Re: annoying behavior with speak word

Afik Souffir
 


Yes, go to Preferences, and then settings, in that search for Keyboard.




From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 10:50:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] annoying behavior with speak word
 
Hi all,
Is there any way to change the way NVDA speaks when you tell it to
speak words after they are typed? In my last message to the list, I
accidentally typed Outll a couple of times when I meant to type
Outlook. When backspacing to correct my error then finished typing the
word, instead of saying Outlook, it says "ook." Is there any way to
change this?
Bob






annoying behavior with speak word

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

Hi all,
Is there any way to change the way NVDA speaks when you tell it to
speak words after they are typed? In my last message to the list, I
accidentally typed Outll a couple of times when I meant to type
Outlook. When backspacing to correct my error then finished typing the
word, instead of saying Outlook, it says "ook." Is there any way to
change this?
Bob


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

Afik Souffir
 


Hi,

No, you don’t need UI automation to navigate by headings, links, etc.
Make sure that browse mode is active, when you are in email message, press caps lock and space.
Hopes this helps

Afik


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 10:40:41 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages
 
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is what the UI
Automation checkbox under advanced in settings is for. I can't
remember what it was I was reading recently when I decided to try to
navigate by heading just for the heck of it and it actually worked.
Outlook seems to be a program where using UI Automation is a must, as
this has solved most of my problems with it. I do, however, think NVDA
does need a bit of improvement in the following areas when working
with Outlook:
1. When changing navigation methods, NVDA is quite slow to respond in
emails containing lots of graphics. For instance, I've talked a lot
about emails I get from Groupon on this list. When navigating those in
Outlook, I usually use NVDA+down arrow to read initially, then stop
it, and use tab to navigate. In some of those emails though, tab just
presents unlabeled links though, so I have to use NVDA+down to read
again. When doing this, there's a half second or so delay between the
time I give the read command and the time it actually starts reading.
2. When deleting an email from your deleted items folder, NVDA
sometimes reads the subject line of the just deleted message instead
of the subject line of the message you're currently viewing. When
deleting a message from the Inbox or a saved folder, NVDA says nothing
until you give it another command.
3. As discussed a month or so ago on this list, with certain versions
of Outlook, you have to use your down arrow key to read a suggestion
when typing an address in the to field of an email.
Hope this helps, and hope someone can correct me if I have the name of
that checkbox wrong, but I think it's use UI Automation.

On 2/10/21, Steve Nutt <steve@...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I am testing an Email marketing platform called EmailOctopus for use in my
> business.
>
>
>
> One thing I noticed about NVDA, having been a JAWS user for years, but now
> moving over more to NVDA, is that it doesn't render HTML Emails correctly.
>
>
>
> For example, you never see headings in Emails.  If I send myself a test
> message and read it in JAWS, I can jump with H to all the headings and know
> that the formatting is correct.  With NVDA, I just get No Next Heading.  In
> fact, all the formatting is completely shot.
>
>
>
> Is there any way we could get NVDA to render Outlook HTML messages as they
> should be rendered, with headings intact?
>
>
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
>
>
> All the best
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> --
>
> Computer Room Services
>
> 77 Exeter Close
>
> Stevenage
>
> Hertfordshire
>
> SG1 4PW
>
> T: +44(0)1438-742286
>
> M: +44(0)7956-334938
>
> F: +44(0)1438-759589
>
> E:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...
>
> W:  <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.comproom.co.uk%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc25863fcf0d540d4751708d8ce042583%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637485864492450005%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=kbNHa4LakBScbHTM6pE9CguvioRlQ354nquTFz6gR1o%3D&amp;reserved=0> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.comproom.co.uk%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc25863fcf0d540d4751708d8ce042583%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637485864492459997%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=htyPmc3WcvVrhNtNzq7IVwcuq9Min3HGw7RC3rGYx0g%3D&amp;reserved=0
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

Gene
 

What are you trying to find with tab? If the purpose is to skip from link to link, use the letter k. That is the move by link command and often solves problems in cases where moving by tab through links doesn't work well.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 2:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is what the UI
Automation checkbox under advanced in settings is for. I can't
remember what it was I was reading recently when I decided to try to
navigate by heading just for the heck of it and it actually worked.
Outlook seems to be a program where using UI Automation is a must, as
this has solved most of my problems with it. I do, however, think NVDA
does need a bit of improvement in the following areas when working
with Outlook:
1. When changing navigation methods, NVDA is quite slow to respond in
emails containing lots of graphics. For instance, I've talked a lot
about emails I get from Groupon on this list. When navigating those in
Outlook, I usually use NVDA+down arrow to read initially, then stop
it, and use tab to navigate. In some of those emails though, tab just
presents unlabeled links though, so I have to use NVDA+down to read
again. When doing this, there's a half second or so delay between the
time I give the read command and the time it actually starts reading.
2. When deleting an email from your deleted items folder, NVDA
sometimes reads the subject line of the just deleted message instead
of the subject line of the message you're currently viewing. When
deleting a message from the Inbox or a saved folder, NVDA says nothing
until you give it another command.
3. As discussed a month or so ago on this list, with certain versions
of Outlook, you have to use your down arrow key to read a suggestion
when typing an address in the to field of an email.
Hope this helps, and hope someone can correct me if I have the name of
that checkbox wrong, but I think it's use UI Automation.

On 2/10/21, Steve Nutt <steve@comproom.co.uk> wrote:
Hi all,



I am testing an Email marketing platform called EmailOctopus for use in my
business.



One thing I noticed about NVDA, having been a JAWS user for years, but now
moving over more to NVDA, is that it doesn't render HTML Emails correctly.



For example, you never see headings in Emails. If I send myself a test
message and read it in JAWS, I can jump with H to all the headings and know
that the formatting is correct. With NVDA, I just get No Next Heading. In
fact, all the formatting is completely shot.



Is there any way we could get NVDA to render Outlook HTML messages as they
should be rendered, with headings intact?



Thanks for any help.



All the best


Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk> steve@comproom.co.uk

W: <https://www.comproom.co.uk> https://www.comproom.co.uk









Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is what the UI
Automation checkbox under advanced in settings is for. I can't
remember what it was I was reading recently when I decided to try to
navigate by heading just for the heck of it and it actually worked.
Outlook seems to be a program where using UI Automation is a must, as
this has solved most of my problems with it. I do, however, think NVDA
does need a bit of improvement in the following areas when working
with Outlook:
1. When changing navigation methods, NVDA is quite slow to respond in
emails containing lots of graphics. For instance, I've talked a lot
about emails I get from Groupon on this list. When navigating those in
Outlook, I usually use NVDA+down arrow to read initially, then stop
it, and use tab to navigate. In some of those emails though, tab just
presents unlabeled links though, so I have to use NVDA+down to read
again. When doing this, there's a half second or so delay between the
time I give the read command and the time it actually starts reading.
2. When deleting an email from your deleted items folder, NVDA
sometimes reads the subject line of the just deleted message instead
of the subject line of the message you're currently viewing. When
deleting a message from the Inbox or a saved folder, NVDA says nothing
until you give it another command.
3. As discussed a month or so ago on this list, with certain versions
of Outlook, you have to use your down arrow key to read a suggestion
when typing an address in the to field of an email.
Hope this helps, and hope someone can correct me if I have the name of
that checkbox wrong, but I think it's use UI Automation.

On 2/10/21, Steve Nutt <steve@comproom.co.uk> wrote:
Hi all,



I am testing an Email marketing platform called EmailOctopus for use in my
business.



One thing I noticed about NVDA, having been a JAWS user for years, but now
moving over more to NVDA, is that it doesn't render HTML Emails correctly.



For example, you never see headings in Emails. If I send myself a test
message and read it in JAWS, I can jump with H to all the headings and know
that the formatting is correct. With NVDA, I just get No Next Heading. In
fact, all the formatting is completely shot.



Is there any way we could get NVDA to render Outlook HTML messages as they
should be rendered, with headings intact?



Thanks for any help.



All the best


Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk> steve@comproom.co.uk

W: <https://www.comproom.co.uk> https://www.comproom.co.uk









Re: I could use the following NVDA help please

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

Both of those settings are in your speech settings. Press NVDA+N, then
go down to preferences, then down to speech. There's a checkbox right
there that says "say cap before typing capital letters," unchecked by
default. Your second query is a bit more complicated to answer, as I
don't know what voices you have installed, but the process is similar.
In that same dialog, there will be combo boxes for changing your
synthesizer, voice, and variant if you're using E-Speak, these might
look a bit different if you're using the Windows voices, but the
process is the same, just choose what you want from here. As for what
voices you have, someone else might be able to say more to what voices
come with Windows 10, but all I have on my computer is the E-Speak
voices and a male and female Microsoft voice.

On 2/10/21, Ron Kolesar <kolesar16417@roadrunner.com> wrote:
. Hello, from Ron Kolesar.

I had to have my pc formatted.

How can I do the following two things within NVDA?

1. How can I have NVDA say cap when I do a uppercased letter?
2. How can I change the voice to a female voice?

Many thanks.

Ron KR3DOG







Re: I could use the following NVDA help please

Gene
 

It is specific to the voice you are using. If you change voices, you asked about a female voice, you will have to do this again.
Open the voice settings dialog with control NVDA key v.
Tab a lot of times. You will find a check box that says something like say cap for capital letters. Check it with the space bar, then press enter. The dialog will close and the setting will be on.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Kolesar
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 1:20 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] I could use the following NVDA help please



. Hello, from Ron Kolesar.

I had to have my pc formatted.

How can I do the following two things within NVDA?

How can I have NVDA say cap when I do a uppercased letter?
How can I change the voice to a female voice?

Many thanks.

Ron KR3DOG


I could use the following NVDA help please

Ron Kolesar
 

.               Hello, from Ron Kolesar.

I had to have my pc formatted.

How can I do the following two things within NVDA?

  1. How can I have NVDA say cap when I do a uppercased letter?
  2. How can I change the voice to a female voice?

Many thanks.

Ron KR3DOG


locked Re: Prepared to be banned from list, but I'll air my views anyway.

 
Edited

On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 12:28 PM, Tony Malykh wrote:
I would like to join Jaffar Sidek and express my discontent with Brian Vogel's  moderation policy of this list.
-
And, as a long term member, you know very well that I have stated, repeatedly, that complaints about moderation are not going to be tolerated on the forum in public.  The group owner has stated the same:

List Updates: Please Read  (Sent April 11, 2020), from Nimer Jaber, Group Owner, stated:

  • This list is not a democracy.
    • A list member took liberties with questioning a moderator on a topic in public, and questioning why topics are locked. Let me be quite clear: It is not acceptable to question a moderator on list in respect of a thread being locked, or any other reason. If a thread is locked, this is not out of a desire to infringe on your rights... As participants on this list, you are bound by the Groups.io terms of service. Furthermore, you are bound by any rules that I, the list owner, along with Brian, the list moderator, and NVAccess decide to impose. Even if the rule is something you disagree with. If you disagree with it, or you cannot abide by it, please unsubscribe. This isn't to say that policies we enact will be unreasonable, however it is your choice whether you are able to follow the rules imposed by an entity when you use a service or product that entity provides.

The above is not up for negotiation.  If these sorts of topics continue, I will put members starting them on moderated status, and feel no compunction for doing so.  If you have issues with moderation, whether here, or on other Groups.io groups, the appropriate way to express those is by writing to the group owner, using the email address Groups.io provides, and making your case.

This topic is now locked.  And I am stating, unequivocally, that anyone who starts another one in public will be instantly put on moderated status.  That's the convention and that's the rule expressed in the Admin Notice quoted above. 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


locked Re: Prepared to be banned from list, but I'll air my views anyway.

Ali Savas
 

Hello all,

I would like to keep this very short. I haven't followed all the
discussions here, so I can't judge Brian's behavior.

However, if this is supposed to be a list from users for users, all
questions should be allowed here that is related to NVDA, no matter how
technical it gets or not. In Germany we also have mailing lists where
all kinds of topics are discussed and nobody complains about it, even if
it is mainly about a major product.

So if nobody knows what SSH is, they just don't read it and that's it.
The main thing is that the topic has something to do with NVDA and SSH.

Ali


locked Re: Prepared to be banned from list, but I'll air my views anyway.

Mike Capelle <mcap@...>
 

This is why I would recommend subscribing to the blindtech list:
blindtech+subscribe@groups.io
We also have a chat discussion list, where you can have lengthy discussions. It is called blind-talk.
To subscribe to the blind-talk list, send a message to:
blind-talk+subscribe@groups.io
blind-talk:
Blind-talk+subscribe@groups.io
I will now exit this group.
Thanks.
Mike.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Malykh
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 11:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Prepared to be banned from the list as well

This is Tony, the author of many NVDA add-ons and occasional
contributor to NVDA core.

I would like to join Jaffar Sidek and express my discontent with Brian
Vogel's moderation policy of this list. While I was not involved in
said discussion, I've had arguments with Brian before, and I disagree
with his moderation policy.
Brian, I know this message violates half of your rules, but you locked
the previous thread, and you don't allow any other ways of expressing
opinions, so you leave me no other choice to speak up.
Brian, your moderation style is hurting this community. Instead of
letting people talk to each other to solve their accessibility issues
you lock threads under excuses that they violate rules that you yourself
imposed. You give warnings to people left and right for missing some
other email on the list. In general your moderation policy creates an
atmosphere of fear instead of collaboration. People are afraid to ask
and answer questions.
My previous attempts of communicating this privately to you led nowhere,
your typical response is "I am tired of people complaining about my
moderation style."
Your list of rules is incomplete - I actually read it - and it is always
hard to predict which grey area topics you would think are appropriate
for the list and which ones are not. My request for clarification was
unanswered. And this becomes a big deal since you enforce those
not-so-clear and not-so-well-defined set of rules vigorously. To us this
feels like toss of a coin: we never know whether you'll consider certain
topic to be violating or not.
Regarding reading all the previous emails on the thread - I personally
don't see a big problem when someone didn't read another email on the
thread. Brian, you are sighted, so seeing the tree of emails is much
easier for you. For blind people it is much more complicated to keep
the structure of emails in the head, so try to forgive them once in a
while. Moreover, some people on this list are old, and as people get
older, it is harder and harder to keep tree-like structures of emails in
the head. So giving out strict warnings to blind people for not being
able to keep track of all the emails - seems to me ridiculously harsh
policy.

The ultimate question we should ask is whether this list is better than
it was before Brian started to moderate it or not. I still remember this
list before Brian, and indeed there were a few off-topic threads, that
were mildly annoying, but that wasn't a big deal. Now with Brian people
are more scared to ask questions. People are scared to respond. All an
all, if we view this mailing list as a tool for people to exchange
thoughts on NVDA, solutions to problems, etc, I believe the
effectiveness of this tool went down after Brian started to moderate it.
I myself don't show up here often anymore, partly because it is no
longer enjoyable. I am the author of many NVDA add-ons (such as
Bluetooth Audio, BrowserNav, SentenceNav, TextNav and others)and I have
contributed a few PRs to NVDA core, most notably fast browse mode. If I
spent a month working on an add-on, I wish to be able to tell people
about it. While Brian has never locked my threads about my add-ons, he
locked a closely related thread regarding SSH accessibility, with an
excuse that "less than 10% people on this list know what is SSH." So I
don't have much confidence that tomorrow Brian won't lock my thread
about another add-on, with a similar excuse, give me a strict warning,
and tell me "he's tired of people like me."
Since it is possible that after this message I will get banned for
speaking up, you guys know whom to blame if I won't be able to answer
questions regarding my add-ons on this mailing list.

To all the subscribers: this thread is likely to be locked by Brian (if
it will ever go through), so feel free to reply to me privately if you
feel unhappy with Brian as well.
Best regards
Tony


locked Prepared to be banned from list, but I'll air my views anyway.

Tony Malykh
 

This is Tony, the  author of many NVDA add-ons and occasional contributor to NVDA core.

I would like to join Jaffar Sidek and express my discontent with Brian Vogel's  moderation policy of this list. While I was not involved in said discussion, I've had arguments with Brian before, and I  disagree with his moderation policy.
Brian, I know this message violates half of your rules, but you locked the previous thread, and you don't allow any other ways of expressing opinions, so you leave me no other choice to speak up.
Brian, your moderation style is hurting this community. Instead of letting people talk to each other to solve their accessibility issues you lock threads under excuses that they violate rules that you yourself imposed. You give warnings to people left and right for missing some other email on the list. In general your moderation policy creates an atmosphere of fear instead of collaboration. People are afraid to ask and answer questions.
My previous attempts of communicating this privately to you led nowhere, your typical response is "I am tired of people complaining about my moderation style."
Your list of rules is incomplete - I actually read it - and it is always hard to predict which grey area topics you would think are appropriate for the list and which ones are not. My request for clarification was unanswered. And this becomes a big deal since you enforce those not-so-clear and not-so-well-defined set of rules vigorously. To us this feels like toss of a coin: we never know whether you'll consider certain topic to be violating or not.
Regarding reading all the previous emails on the thread - I personally don't see a big problem when someone didn't read another email on the thread. Brian, you are sighted, so seeing the tree of emails is much easier for you. For blind people  it is much more complicated to keep the structure of emails in the head, so try to forgive them once in a while. Moreover, some people on this list are old, and as people get older, it is harder and harder to keep tree-like structures of emails in the head. So giving out strict warnings to blind people for not being able to keep track of all the emails - seems to me ridiculously harsh policy.

The ultimate question we should ask is whether this list is better than it was before Brian started to moderate it or not. I still remember this list before Brian, and indeed there were a few off-topic threads, that were mildly annoying, but that wasn't a big deal. Now with Brian people are more scared to ask questions. People are scared to respond. All an all, if we view this mailing list as a tool for people to exchange thoughts on NVDA, solutions to problems, etc, I believe the effectiveness of this tool went down after Brian  started to moderate it.
I myself don't show up here often anymore, partly because it is no longer enjoyable. I am the author of many NVDA add-ons (such as Bluetooth Audio, BrowserNav, SentenceNav, TextNav and others)and I have contributed a few PRs to NVDA core, most notably fast browse mode. If I spent a month working on an add-on, I wish to be able to tell people about it. While Brian has never locked my threads about my add-ons, he locked a closely related thread regarding SSH accessibility, with an excuse that "less than 10% people on this list know what is SSH." So I don't have much confidence that tomorrow Brian won't lock my thread about another add-on, with a similar excuse, give me a strict warning, and tell me "he's tired of people like me."
Since it is possible that after this message I will get banned for speaking up, you guys know whom to blame if I won't be able to answer questions regarding my add-ons on this mailing list.

To all the subscribers: this thread  is likely to be locked by Brian (if it will ever go through), so feel free to reply to me privately if you feel unhappy with Brian as well.
Best regards
Tony

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