Date   

Merry Christmas

Ján Kulik
 

Hi everione, happy merry Christmas 2018


Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

David Goldfield
 

Hi, Marcio.

Here's a captured version of the Microtalk.com home page from the Internet Archive. The actual content begins at the first level 1 heading.

https://web.archive.org/web/19981201045558/http://www.microtalk.com:80/

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com

On 12/23/2018 2:46 PM, marcio via Groups.Io wrote:
I have never heard about ASAP. How it was like? Some place to find something on this even to satisfy my curiosity for old tech things? Lol

Em 23/12/2018 14:50, David Goldfield escreveu:

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0. At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation. However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8 and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous, current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com
On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:
My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often does.






Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws?

Gene
 

Again, the JAWS cursor comparison is outdated and misleading.  JAWS has a touch cursor that does what object navigation does.
 
Something that hasn't been commented on at all is web navigation.  Keys such as b, move by button, h, move by heading, n, skip blocks of links and other such keys are either identical or just about identical.  So browsing in JAWS or NVDA will be almost the same.  While this is not a difference, I mentioned it in case anyone might wonder about it.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws?

Ah, I definitely should have mentioned using the numeric keypad in my previous message outlining some of the major differences. JAWS users might initially have some struggles in how NVDA uses the numeric keypad but NVDA's object navigation can sometimes access certain windows which cannot be accessed using the JAWS cursor.

.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com
On 12/23/2018 12:20 PM, David Goldfield wrote:

Hi, Maria.

I'll try to outline what I see are some of the key differences between the two screen readers. Both have their respective pros and cons and, as I use both, I will try to be as objective as I can in compiling this list. I will say up front that this is probably not an exhaustive or complete list but items which immediately come to mind.



Advantages of NVDA Over JAWS

1. NVDA is free of cost. This not only means that no money is required to use the software but it also means that NVDA users don't need to worry about software maintenance agreements. As long as you're using a fairly modern version of Windows you can be sure that you can always run the latest NVDA version. It also means you never have to worry about being in a trial mode where NVDA will eventually stop functioning

2. NVDA is open source. This has several advantages such as more transparency, being open to community contributions and even allowing the community to take the existing source code and modify it, creating their own screen reader as long as certain terms of the license are met.

3. To my knowledge, NVDA is likely available in more languages and comes with a synthesizer capable of speaking many of these languages. This means that NVDA is capable of being used by people around the world without them first needing to acquire NVDA in their language.

4. NVDA is more of a community effort, written by its users as well as for its users. This means that, potentially, users have more to say about its development.

5. The program's actual size is much smaller, making the download much faster. This means that downloading future updates can, depending on the speed of your Internet connection, take just a few seconds.

6. Along with that, the actual installation of NVDA is lightning fast.

7. NVDA can be run portably off of a USB drive or SD card, without the need to install it onto the host computer. Nearly all features are available using the portable version.

8. NVDA's various program settings are located from within one easy to use menu, as opposed to several different dialogs as well as a menu.

9. One of my personal favorite unique NVDA features is the ability for NVDA to optionally generate ascending tones to indicate the progress indicator for tasks such as copying a file from one location to another, downloading a file in Firefox or Internet Explorer, installing a program, etc. I honestly never understood why JAWS has never implemented such a feature. JAWS is now able to do this if you use the third-party Leasey add-on but this is a program which must be purchased in order for this feature to be available.

10. Along with option 9, NVDA can also report background progress tones, a feature that I really like. As an example, this means that I can have a Windows update download and install in the background while I'm composing a document and I can still hear the ascending progress tones, hear the percentages announced verbally or both.

11. This may be subjective but I feel that NVDA's user documentation has a slightly simpler writing style. The documentation which is supplied with JAWS is both accurate and extensive but it is not written well from the perspective of a new user. I used to train people in how to use computers and screen readers and I find that I was sometimes needing to translate some of the help text supplied with JAWS. Writing manuals and help materials is as much of an art than it is a science.

12. NVDA allows users to submit bug reports and feature requests in a special repository. This has some definite advantages. It shows you the progress of your report and you will know whether and how it's being addressed, as will other users. It also means that you can search the repository for other issues to see whether they have already been reported as well as the status of those issues.


David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com
On 12/22/2018 8:50 PM, Maria Reyes wrote:
How different is NVDA than Jaws? what are some differences? 

Maria
Want to talk all about blind technology? 
Join the tech4theblind group: tech4theblind+subscribe@groups.io
Have an Apple product? Join the Apple411 group to discuss the iPhone, iPad, and Mac. From experienced to new users. 


Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws?

Sky Mundell
 

Sadly that is the case indeed.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws?

 

I doubt most people use written documentation much provided with either program.  JAWS has training material in the form of tutorials and so does NVDA.  I don't know if either is superior or in what ways.  But I wouldn't let the written documentation be a factor in determining which screen-reader to use.  They both have extensive written documentation which, as I said, I doubt most users use much.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:20 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws?

 

Hi, Maria.

I'll try to outline what I see are some of the key differences between the two screen readers. Both have their respective pros and cons and, as I use both, I will try to be as objective as I can in compiling this list. I will say up front that this is probably not an exhaustive or complete list but items which immediately come to mind.

 

 

Advantages of NVDA Over JAWS

1. NVDA is free of cost. This not only means that no money is required to use the software but it also means that NVDA users don't need to worry about software maintenance agreements. As long as you're using a fairly modern version of Windows you can be sure that you can always run the latest NVDA version. It also means you never have to worry about being in a trial mode where NVDA will eventually stop functioning

2. NVDA is open source. This has several advantages such as more transparency, being open to community contributions and even allowing the community to take the existing source code and modify it, creating their own screen reader as long as certain terms of the license are met.

3. To my knowledge, NVDA is likely available in more languages and comes with a synthesizer capable of speaking many of these languages. This means that NVDA is capable of being used by people around the world without them first needing to acquire NVDA in their language.

4. NVDA is more of a community effort, written by its users as well as for its users. This means that, potentially, users have more to say about its development.

5. The program's actual size is much smaller, making the download much faster. This means that downloading future updates can, depending on the speed of your Internet connection, take just a few seconds.

6. Along with that, the actual installation of NVDA is lightning fast.

7. NVDA can be run portably off of a USB drive or SD card, without the need to install it onto the host computer. Nearly all features are available using the portable version.

8. NVDA's various program settings are located from within one easy to use menu, as opposed to several different dialogs as well as a menu.

9. One of my personal favorite unique NVDA features is the ability for NVDA to optionally generate ascending tones to indicate the progress indicator for tasks such as copying a file from one location to another, downloading a file in Firefox or Internet Explorer, installing a program, etc. I honestly never understood why JAWS has never implemented such a feature. JAWS is now able to do this if you use the third-party Leasey add-on but this is a program which must be purchased in order for this feature to be available.

10. Along with option 9, NVDA can also report background progress tones, a feature that I really like. As an example, this means that I can have a Windows update download and install in the background while I'm composing a document and I can still hear the ascending progress tones, hear the percentages announced verbally or both.

11. This may be subjective but I feel that NVDA's user documentation has a slightly simpler writing style. The documentation which is supplied with JAWS is both accurate and extensive but it is not written well from the perspective of a new user. I used to train people in how to use computers and screen readers and I find that I was sometimes needing to translate some of the help text supplied with JAWS. Writing manuals and help materials is as much of an art than it is a science.

12. NVDA allows users to submit bug reports and feature requests in a special repository. This has some definite advantages. It shows you the progress of your report and you will know whether and how it's being addressed, as will other users. It also means that you can search the repository for other issues to see whether they have already been reported as well as the status of those issues.

 

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com

On 12/22/2018 8:50 PM, Maria Reyes wrote:

How different is NVDA than Jaws? what are some differences? 

Maria

Want to talk all about blind technology? 

Join the tech4theblind group: tech4theblind+subscribe@groups.io

Have an Apple product? Join the Apple411 group to discuss the iPhone, iPad, and Mac. From experienced to new users. 


Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws?

Gene
 

I doubt most people use written documentation much provided with either program.  JAWS has training material in the form of tutorials and so does NVDA.  I don't know if either is superior or in what ways.  But I wouldn't let the written documentation be a factor in determining which screen-reader to use.  They both have extensive written documentation which, as I said, I doubt most users use much.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws?

Hi, Maria.

I'll try to outline what I see are some of the key differences between the two screen readers. Both have their respective pros and cons and, as I use both, I will try to be as objective as I can in compiling this list. I will say up front that this is probably not an exhaustive or complete list but items which immediately come to mind.



Advantages of NVDA Over JAWS

1. NVDA is free of cost. This not only means that no money is required to use the software but it also means that NVDA users don't need to worry about software maintenance agreements. As long as you're using a fairly modern version of Windows you can be sure that you can always run the latest NVDA version. It also means you never have to worry about being in a trial mode where NVDA will eventually stop functioning

2. NVDA is open source. This has several advantages such as more transparency, being open to community contributions and even allowing the community to take the existing source code and modify it, creating their own screen reader as long as certain terms of the license are met.

3. To my knowledge, NVDA is likely available in more languages and comes with a synthesizer capable of speaking many of these languages. This means that NVDA is capable of being used by people around the world without them first needing to acquire NVDA in their language.

4. NVDA is more of a community effort, written by its users as well as for its users. This means that, potentially, users have more to say about its development.

5. The program's actual size is much smaller, making the download much faster. This means that downloading future updates can, depending on the speed of your Internet connection, take just a few seconds.

6. Along with that, the actual installation of NVDA is lightning fast.

7. NVDA can be run portably off of a USB drive or SD card, without the need to install it onto the host computer. Nearly all features are available using the portable version.

8. NVDA's various program settings are located from within one easy to use menu, as opposed to several different dialogs as well as a menu.

9. One of my personal favorite unique NVDA features is the ability for NVDA to optionally generate ascending tones to indicate the progress indicator for tasks such as copying a file from one location to another, downloading a file in Firefox or Internet Explorer, installing a program, etc. I honestly never understood why JAWS has never implemented such a feature. JAWS is now able to do this if you use the third-party Leasey add-on but this is a program which must be purchased in order for this feature to be available.

10. Along with option 9, NVDA can also report background progress tones, a feature that I really like. As an example, this means that I can have a Windows update download and install in the background while I'm composing a document and I can still hear the ascending progress tones, hear the percentages announced verbally or both.

11. This may be subjective but I feel that NVDA's user documentation has a slightly simpler writing style. The documentation which is supplied with JAWS is both accurate and extensive but it is not written well from the perspective of a new user. I used to train people in how to use computers and screen readers and I find that I was sometimes needing to translate some of the help text supplied with JAWS. Writing manuals and help materials is as much of an art than it is a science.

12. NVDA allows users to submit bug reports and feature requests in a special repository. This has some definite advantages. It shows you the progress of your report and you will know whether and how it's being addressed, as will other users. It also means that you can search the repository for other issues to see whether they have already been reported as well as the status of those issues.


David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com
On 12/22/2018 8:50 PM, Maria Reyes wrote:
How different is NVDA than Jaws? what are some differences? 

Maria
Want to talk all about blind technology? 
Join the tech4theblind group: tech4theblind+subscribe@groups.io
Have an Apple product? Join the Apple411 group to discuss the iPhone, iPad, and Mac. From experienced to new users. 


Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

I have never heard about ASAP. How it was like? Some place to find something on this even to satisfy my curiosity for old tech things? Lol

Em 23/12/2018 14:50, David Goldfield escreveu:

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0. At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation. However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8 and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous, current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com
On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:
My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often does.






Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Adriani Botez
 

For example I am using object navigation on wordpress where many combo boxes are not very accessible. For example in the widgets area.
Another example are different windows 10 apps or the dell power management tool.

But there are lots of third party apps where object navigation can be a real advantage.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 20:20
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I beg to differ somewhat:
1. Object hierarchy: without talking about that, object navigation won't make a lot of sense. This is because the commands defined in NVDA will refer to parents, children and so on, and one way to get a grasp of this is hierarchy (how interface elements are organized).
2. Splitting into multiple tutorials: I'd rather not at this point, as the aim is to talk about everything you need to know when it comes to using object navigation (this is the reason why I said I'll include concepts form the user guide along with experiences).

Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,

well, the add-on simplifies object navigation for the normal user. I thought the tutorial was intended to address the normal users incl. beginners. But yes, an advanced user tutorial would ofcourse include also the principles of object hierarchy and the difference between simple and detailed object hierarchy. I don't know if this is understandable for beginners. We must bare in mind that object navigation principles can be very complex and in some cases could overwelm users. I would try to explain it as simple as possible without much developping details. Maybe two or three practical examples would bring more benefits for users than the theoretical principles behind it. But this is only my opinion.

In a second tutorial theoretical principles could be addressed, if people want it.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:46
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.




Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

Hi,
I will include several examples demonstrating what I'm writing about (one of them may talk about Windows release differences also).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

ok I see. Yes I agree to point 1 as well, but it depends how far in detail you explain that. Maybe it should be combined with a practical example aalong to which you explain the hierarchy in that specific case. Anyway, I think the efficiency of object navigation and its advantages should be a quintessence of the tutorial.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 20:20
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I beg to differ somewhat:
1. Object hierarchy: without talking about that, object navigation won't make a lot of sense. This is because the commands defined in NVDA will refer to parents, children and so on, and one way to get a grasp of this is hierarchy (how interface elements are organized).
2. Splitting into multiple tutorials: I'd rather not at this point, as the aim is to talk about everything you need to know when it comes to using object navigation (this is the reason why I said I'll include concepts form the user guide along with experiences).

Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,

well, the add-on simplifies object navigation for the normal user. I thought the tutorial was intended to address the normal users incl. beginners. But yes, an advanced user tutorial would ofcourse include also the principles of object hierarchy and the difference between simple and detailed object hierarchy. I don't know if this is understandable for beginners. We must bare in mind that object navigation principles can be very complex and in some cases could overwelm users. I would try to explain it as simple as possible without much developping details. Maybe two or three practical examples would bring more benefits for users than the theoretical principles behind it. But this is only my opinion.

In a second tutorial theoretical principles could be addressed, if people want it.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:46
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.




Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Adriani Botez
 

Hey Joseph,

ok I see. Yes I agree to point 1 as well, but it depends how far in detail you explain that. Maybe it should be combined with a practical example aalong to which you explain the hierarchy in that specific case. Anyway, I think the efficiency of object navigation and its advantages should be a quintessence of the tutorial.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 20:20
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I beg to differ somewhat:
1. Object hierarchy: without talking about that, object navigation won't make a lot of sense. This is because the commands defined in NVDA will refer to parents, children and so on, and one way to get a grasp of this is hierarchy (how interface elements are organized).
2. Splitting into multiple tutorials: I'd rather not at this point, as the aim is to talk about everything you need to know when it comes to using object navigation (this is the reason why I said I'll include concepts form the user guide along with experiences).

Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,

well, the add-on simplifies object navigation for the normal user. I thought the tutorial was intended to address the normal users incl. beginners. But yes, an advanced user tutorial would ofcourse include also the principles of object hierarchy and the difference between simple and detailed object hierarchy. I don't know if this is understandable for beginners. We must bare in mind that object navigation principles can be very complex and in some cases could overwelm users. I would try to explain it as simple as possible without much developping details. Maybe two or three practical examples would bring more benefits for users than the theoretical principles behind it. But this is only my opinion.

In a second tutorial theoretical principles could be addressed, if people want it.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:46
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.




Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

Hi,
I beg to differ somewhat:
1. Object hierarchy: without talking about that, object navigation won't make a lot of sense. This is because the commands defined in NVDA will refer to parents, children and so on, and one way to get a grasp of this is hierarchy (how interface elements are organized).
2. Splitting into multiple tutorials: I'd rather not at this point, as the aim is to talk about everything you need to know when it comes to using object navigation (this is the reason why I said I'll include concepts form the user guide along with experiences).

Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,

well, the add-on simplifies object navigation for the normal user. I thought the tutorial was intended to address the normal users incl. beginners. But yes, an advanced user tutorial would ofcourse include also the principles of object hierarchy and the difference between simple and detailed object hierarchy. I don't know if this is understandable for beginners. We must bare in mind that object navigation principles can be very complex and in some cases could overwelm users. I would try to explain it as simple as possible without much developping details. Maybe two or three practical examples would bring more benefits for users than the theoretical principles behind it. But this is only my opinion.

In a second tutorial theoretical principles could be addressed, if people want it.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:46
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.




Re: The AT toolbox

 

Indeed, you're quite right.
Em 23/12/2018 16:04, john farina escreveu:

Hi folks,

Rather than attaching these thoughts to the messages asking the difference between NVDA and JAWS, I thought I would mention them here.

As an assistive technology instructor as are several on this list, I am finding that the days of having one tool in the toolbox to work with computers and software are gone. I have 2 screen readers on my windows 7 computer for instance, NVDA and JAWS. This computer mostly does some ham radio tasks and I have software which will only work using JAWS and other software which will work only with NVDA. This has to do with many variables but what it says is that as computer users who are blind, we may all need to be able to work with several tools to get the job done on our computers. In many aspects it does not have anything to do with the superiority of one tool over the other, just how they happene to work with the specific software and modifications to the screen reading system that makes this happen.

Hope that helps.








Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

ely.r@...
 

Joseph,
I agree.
Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 1:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.




Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Adriani Botez
 

The big advantage of the add-on are the unified keyboard commands. The Desktop and laptop keyboard layout approach used in NVDA is in my view outdated and actually not very user friendly.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Adriani Botez via Groups.Io
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:53
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,

well, the add-on simplifies object navigation for the normal user. I thought the tutorial was intended to address the normal users incl. beginners. But yes, an advanced user tutorial would ofcourse include also the principles of object hierarchy and the difference between simple and detailed object hierarchy. I don't know if this is understandable for beginners. We must bare in mind that object navigation principles can be very complex and in some cases could overwelm users. I would try to explain it as simple as possible without much developping details. Maybe two or three practical examples would bring more benefits for users than the theoretical principles behind it. But this is only my opinion.

In a second tutorial theoretical principles could be addressed, if people want it.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:46
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.




Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Adriani Botez
 

Hi,

well, the add-on simplifies object navigation for the normal user. I thought the tutorial was intended to address the normal users incl. beginners. But yes, an advanced user tutorial would ofcourse include also the principles of object hierarchy and the difference between simple and detailed object hierarchy. I don't know if this is understandable for beginners. We must bare in mind that object navigation principles can be very complex and in some cases could overwelm users. I would try to explain it as simple as possible without much developping details. Maybe two or three practical examples would bring more benefits for users than the theoretical principles behind it. But this is only my opinion.

In a second tutorial theoretical principles could be addressed, if people want it.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:46
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.




Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Gary Metzler
 

Hi Joseph,

 

Doing that will be most helpful.  Thanks,

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:58 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Goldfield
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0. At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation. However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8 and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous, current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often does.



Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.




Re: Want to resume chkdsk

farhan israk
 

Thank you. My computer doesn't have any issue. I want to check my harddisk has bad sector or not. Capacity of drives are so high that I can't complete in 3-4 hours.


On Sun, 23 Dec 2018, 5:09 pm Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io wrote:
As far as I know you have to let it go to the end as it restarts again after
a new start unless there are hidden files which tell it otherwise, but that
would be a security issue I'd have thought.
 Also be aware that if any software has changed any of the files it scans to
ones modified, the old ones will be put back and this will mean those
programs will have to be reinstalled again. that has my experience even on
windows 7.
 What exactly is the issue you are trying to fix?
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "farhan israk" <fahim.net.2014@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 5:08 AM
Subject: [nvda] Want to resume chkdsk


>I use Windows 10 1803. Is it possible to pause chkdsk, shut down computer
> and resume after turning on computer?
>
>
>
>





Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Adriani Botez
 

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.




Re: fore some reason nvda isn't talking when I'm using my keyboard

Gene
 

SSD drives fail as well.  Most hard drives either don’t fail or fail after much more use.  All data you don’t want to use should be backed up.  SSD or mechanical drive doesn’t matter.  They all may fail and mechanical hard drives are usually very reliable.  That isn’t a reason to switch to an SSD.  Speed is.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Tyler Wood
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] fore some reason nvda isn't talking when I'm using my keyboard
 
I have things backed up to multiple hard drives and off-site.


I have a solid state drive in one of my computers that is over 6 years
old. During that time, I have had 4 hard drives fail spectacularly. Not
that this is truly representative of how hard drives compare with solid
state, but the key thing to know, and take into consideration, is how
much your data is worth to you. I often tell people that one external
isn't enough. Make it two, just in case, especially if your data means a
lot to you.



On 2018-12-23 4:44 a.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
> No indeed, and it has mostly been the case with windows over the
> years, as it always has used what it calls virtual memory, ie hard
> disc space.
> I only use hard drives for backups and storage of non time critical
> stuff. anything you want now has to be on ssd.
>
> Indeed there is one very fast old computer with a normal drive here,
> anan ancient dell laptop on xp. It has however got a small drive and
> hence not a lot of stuff on it.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal E-mail to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tyler Wood" <tcwood12@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2018 11:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] fore some reason nvda isn't talking when I'm using
> my keyboard
>
>
>> What world is that in? lol. Unless you're referring to the surface
>> pro 6, then it is about on parr with other laptops with solid state
>> storage.
>>
>>
>> I mean, unless you want to go with a 1 tb spinning hard drive and in
>> 2018, that's a hard sell.
>>
>>
>> I was using a computer recently that had a core i7-7820HQ (that's a
>> quad core processor with 8 threads). It had a mechanical 1 terabyte
>> hard drive, and it was made last year.
>>
>>
>> Browsing the web was so much slower than on a machine with a solid
>> state drive. It shouldn't be - after all the web browser was already
>> loaded - but it was truly painful. Restarting was just about as
>> painful, to. Even comparing this to a cheap windows device with a
>> solid state drive - even EMMC storage - and I truthfully can't
>> recommend a mechanical hard drive these days. And I'm not even
>> getting into general performance. Moving around the screen was
>> painfully slow. Opening apps took far longer than a machine with a
>> hard drive, even 4 or 5 years ago, used to. I'm not sure if it was
>> the screen reader making performance that much worse, but it was
>> similar to using a computer, back in the day, that had 256 mb of ram
>> and ran windows xp. Browsing the web, while doable, was probably my
>> biggest issue.
>>
>>
>> So, yes, while the surface go is relatively expensive when you
>> increase the storage space, it comes with the benefit of having a
>> solid state drive. In todays day and age, we think windows 10 is very
>> light on resources. It most assuredly is not.
>>
>> On 2018-12-22 4:29 p.m., Shaun Everiss wrote:
>>> Yeah and I was seriously going to buy one at one point.
>>>
>>> Not anymore, they cost more than standard laptops to get one with a
>>> lot of space.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/23/2018 10:33 AM, molly the blind tech lover wrote:
>>>> It sucks that these surface devices have these issues.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
>>>> Brian's Mail
>>>> list account via Groups.Io
>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2018 3:53 AM
>>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] fore some reason nvda isn't talking when I'm
>>>> using my
>>>> keyboard
>>>>
>>>> Oh there will be...
>>>>
>>>> 1. Press and hold the power button until the screen turns off
>>>> (about 10
>>>> seconds), then release the power button.
>>>> 2. Press and release the power button to turn your Surface back on.
>>>> You
>>>> should see the Microsoft logo.
>>>> If that doesn't work, use this shutdown process to make sure your
>>>> Surface
>>>> completely turns off. Here's how:
>>>> Press and hold down the power button until your Surface restarts
>>>> and you see
>>>> the Windows logo screen (this takes about 20 seconds), then release
>>>> the
>>>> power button.
>>>> Surface Book, Surface Pro 4, Surface Pro 3, Surface Pro 2, and
>>>> Surface Pro
>>>> 1. Press and hold the power button for a full 10 seconds, until the
>>>> screen
>>>> turns off, then release the power button.
>>>> Note
>>>> On some Surface models, the screen may immediately turn off when
>>>> pressing
>>>> the power button. If this happens, continue to hold for the full 10
>>>> seconds
>>>> and then release.
>>>> 2. Press and release the power button to turn your Surface back on.
>>>> You
>>>> should see the Surface logo.
>>>> If that doesn't work, use this two-button shutdown process to make
>>>> sure your
>>>> Surface completely turns off. Here's how:
>>>> 1. Press and hold the power button on your Surface for 30 seconds
>>>> and then
>>>> release it.
>>>> 2.
>>>> Press and hold the volume-up button and the power button at the
>>>> same time
>>>> for at least 15 seconds and then release both.
>>>> The screen may flash the Surface logo, but continue holding the
>>>> buttons down
>>>> for at least 15 seconds.
>>>> 3. After you release the buttons, wait 10 seconds.
>>>> 4. Press and release the power button to turn your Surface back on.
>>>> You
>>>> should see the Surface logo.
>>>> Surface 3, Surface 2, and Surface RT
>>>> 1. Press and hold the power button for a full 10 seconds, until the
>>>> screen
>>>> turns off, then release the power button.
>>>> Note
>>>> On some Surface models, the screen may immediately turn off when
>>>> pressing
>>>> the power button. If this happens, continue to hold for the full 10
>>>> seconds
>>>> and then release.
>>>> 2. Press and release the power button to turn your Surface back on.
>>>> You
>>>> should see the Surface logo.
>>>> bglists@...
>>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>>> Please address personal E-mail to:-
>>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>>> in the display name field.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "molly the blind tech lover" <brainardmolly@...>
>>>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2018 1:06 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] fore some reason nvda isn't talking when I'm
>>>> using my
>>>> keyboard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is no way to manually force this Microsoft surface tablet to
>>>> shut
>>>> down. I guess I'll have to go to the Microsoft store. Maybe they
>>>> can fix it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tyler
>>>> Spivey
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 7:39 PM
>>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] fore some reason nvda isn't talking when I'm
>>>> using my
>>>> keyboard
>>>>
>>>> Don't be too discouraged, breaking things is quite normal.
>>>>
>>>> If this is a tablet with a separate keyboard, maybe Bluetooth was
>>>> turned
>>>> off, the batteries died or the keyboard was turned off. Tab should
>>>> at least
>>>> do something, or pressing any other key should interrupt NVDA from
>>>> speaking.
>>>> If nothing happens even after reboot, we can figure it out from there.
>>>>
>>>> Here's how to power off your tablet.
>>>> 1. Try pressing the power button. If that doesn't start the
>>>> process, maybe
>>>> things aren't set up to work that way, or something is preventing
>>>> it from
>>>> working.
>>>> 2. The next thing to try would be a hard power off. This depends on
>>>> the
>>>> machine, but generally holding power for at least 5 seconds will do
>>>> it.
>>>> This doesn't give Windows a chance to shut down properly and save
>>>> your work,
>>>> so I generally only do this if I can't easily shut it down any
>>>> other way.
>>>> After that, just power it on normally.
>>>>
>>>> On 12/21/2018 4:19 PM, molly the blind tech lover wrote:
>>>>> Hey guys, Molly here again.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know what happened but all of a sudden my keyboard on my
>>>>> tablet doesn't seem to work with nvda. I press a key, like the
>>>>> windows
>>>>> key, and nvda is completely silent. It is silent when I press any key
>>>>> on the keyboard. The only way nvda talks is if I use the mouse.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know what I did, but I am so stupid. I am just too dumb to
>>>>> ever be a good nvda user. Is there a way to force the machine to
>>>>> restart? I am feeling completely incompetent.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>



Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

Hi,

Yes, touch cursor, which is essential object navigation.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:50 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

JAWS has another navigation method now.  I’m not sure what it is called.  It can probably see all the things you don’t see when using the JAWS cursor. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:50 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0. At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation. However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8 and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous, current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often does.