Date   

Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Sarah k Alawami
 

I agree with jean. I push my students as well as I was pushed to learn all of the browse commands and I was a beginner. Then and only then could I learn other ways other easier ways.

Second, 90 percent out of 90 percent of websites? I don't think so. Many websites are getting harder to use and more cluttered and full of gunk that the sighted like and the blind hate. Amazon anyone? So. your second claim is faulse, or soon might be.

On 3 Dec 2018, at 9:22, Tony Malykh wrote:

Gene, It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But: 1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the layout of this website. 2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites. And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then move on to more powerful commands? 3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too complicated". I only try to solve this problem. 4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here. 5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future development.

Best Tony

On 12/2/18, Gene gsasner@... wrote: > I'll discuss some points: > First, something that I can comment on very briefly. You only tried > the > skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one > article. I > said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, > another > does. The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful > command. > > It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles on > web > pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you > say. My > concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give > them > far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be > disuaded > from doing so. So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for > and its > limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on > that > allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all > interruptions to > the article such as groups of links to related material, > advertisements > image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of. I > think > that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the > Internet in > a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music > sites and > search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the other > ways > of web navigation NVDA offers. I don't object to the add-on but > there are > many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or > self-confidence, > severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they > can't > do things they can do. I'm not sure just how you would present the > add-on > but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but > you are > extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation > to use > search sites. Even many of the older people you are discussing, I > suspect, > would want to know how to do basic searches. > > When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't > have any > idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more > knowledgeable > user? Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the > information is > better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether > someone > is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some > other > relevant company or organization, and other information, if available > that > may help me assess his reliability. None of this is heard in the > current > way the add-on works. > > and there are lots of other kinds of forums. Some people like to > hang out > on political forums. they might well want to know who is writing so > they > can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping, skimming, > or > paying close attention to posts of certain authors. > there are an enormous number of forums. As I said, I don't know if > the > add-on can have some sort of forums mode. I don't have the technical > knowledge to know. > > also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic > reading > mode. This is an important feature. Many people may use the add-on > to find > the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read > the > article because they don't want to issue a command every few > sentences while > reading. If there were an automatic read command, this would allow > people > to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the > add-on > would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article > without > interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command. . > > And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed pages > of a > newspaper. A bit of information may be provided about guest > columnists that > may be useful to readers. If someone works at a conservative think > tank, > his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal > one. > If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that.
> That puts > me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he > works. > If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is > important. > > Gene > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tony Malykh > Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io > Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to > browse > Internet > > > Hi Gene, > Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable > questions you are raising. > 1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of > browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the > standard navigation commands. > 2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a > burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you > can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can > enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the > proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when > you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful > tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people > were > claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the > clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes > people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix. > Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you > want > to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode > commands are always there. > 3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But > when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster. > 4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on > one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the > article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out > if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the > beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav. > 5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings. > 6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read > the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of > the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to > find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the > standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By > skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but > this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing > experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not > interested in the name of the author. > 7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems, > like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't > care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the > question, > and I care much less who answered it. > > Best regards > Tony > > > On 12/2/18, Gene gsasner@... wrote: >> I have some comments on your demo for TextNav. First, it isn't a >> substitute >> for learning the layout and structures of web pages. If you use it >> before >> you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than >> straight >> reading situations well. >> >> Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when >> reading the >> page you used is not correct. it is thirteen times more efficient >> if you >> don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something >> like an >> article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your >> comparison. >> You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of >> links >> command, the letter n. That gets you much much closer to the >> article >> text >> because it skips most of the material on this page before the >> article >> starts. On some pages, move by heading works better. On some, move >> by >> skip >> nnavigation works bettter. on some, move by heading, then using >> skip >> navigation links works better. On some, the find command works >> better. >> You >> may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you >> experiment. >> Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same >> way. >> I want to be clear. I am not saying that the add-on isn't very >> useful in >> skipping to the first sentence of an article. But you don't hear >> the >> author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to >> hear, >> and, >> if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be >> exceedingly >> tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly. For >> a >> somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I >> would >> imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or >> forty or >> more times. The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading >> uninterruptedly. >> >> And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in >> the >> add-on. It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all >> information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other >> information >> that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for >> reliability >> or what his credentials are. Also, as you continue to read and even >> if >> you >> know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who >> it is >> from. You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is >> commenting >> on >> comments for the first time or who is making comments after making >> other >> comments. If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an >> environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by >> paragraph >> and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't >> know >> if >> this can be done. I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.
>> That >> is >> f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some >> people >> call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms. >> >> In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to >> discourage >> its >> further development. Critics mmay be your best friends in such >> situations. >> But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement. >> >> and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier: >> The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm >> reading, >> I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of >> something when I am reading an article and am not interested in >> knowing >> such >> other information. >> >> Gene >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Tony Malykh >> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io >> Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse >> Internet >> >> >> Hello NVDA users >> >> Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to >> browse >> Internet for the blind! >> >> Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you >> couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find >> the >> right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use. >> Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio): >> https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo >> >> Here is the link to download TextNav: >> https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav >> >> TextNav on github: >> https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/ >> >> TextNav keystrokes: >> * Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text. >> * Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text. >> >> I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome! >> >> Sincerely, >> Tony Malykh >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > >


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Sarah k Alawami
 

Agreed. I also skip the names of the guys who wrote comments, authors of articless, Take care. I could care less. I use a reader in safari so I just go past all of that and vo right fast until I get to the text as I don't trust vo command n which does the same as the n key in nvda.

On 2 Dec 2018, at 20:56, Tony Malykh wrote:

Hi Gene, Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable questions you are raising. 1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the standard navigation commands. 2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix. Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode commands are always there. 3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster. 4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav. 5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings. 6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not interested in the name of the author. 7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems, like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question, and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards Tony

On 12/2/18, Gene gsasner@... wrote: > I have some comments on your demo for TextNav. First, it isn't a > substitute > for learning the layout and structures of web pages. If you use it > before > you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than > straight > reading situations well. > > Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when reading > the > page you used is not correct. it is thirteen times more efficient if > you > don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something like > an > article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your > comparison. > You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of > links > command, the letter n. That gets you much much closer to the article > text > because it skips most of the material on this page before the article > starts. On some pages, move by heading works better. On some, move > by skip > nnavigation works bettter. on some, move by heading, then using skip > navigation links works better. On some, the find command works > better. You > may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you > experiment. > Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same > way. > I want to be clear. I am not saying that the add-on isn't very > useful in > skipping to the first sentence of an article. But you don't hear the > author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to > hear, and, > if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be > exceedingly > tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly. For > a > somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I > would > imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or forty > or > more times. The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading > uninterruptedly. > > And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the > add-on. It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all > information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other > information > that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for > reliability > or what his credentials are. Also, as you continue to read and even > if you > know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who > it is > from. You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is > commenting on > comments for the first time or who is making comments after making > other > comments. If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an > environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by > paragraph > and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't > know if > this can be done. I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.
> That is > f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some > people > call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms. > > In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to > discourage its > further development. Critics mmay be your best friends in such > situations. > But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement. > > and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier: > The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm > reading, > I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of > something when I am reading an article and am not interested in > knowing such > other information. > > Gene > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tony Malykh > Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io > Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse > Internet > > > Hello NVDA users > > Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to > browse > Internet for the blind! > > Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you > couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the > right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use. > Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio): > https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo > > Here is the link to download TextNav: > https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav > > TextNav on github: > https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/ > > TextNav keystrokes: > * Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text. > * Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text. > > I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome! > > Sincerely, > Tony Malykh > > > > > > > >


Re: Game virus, was, A couple of small annoyances.

Brian K. Lingard
 

Dear Max & NVDA List:

Trimmed 5,000 bytes of superfluous messages plus redundant list trailer
lines, as we are no longer discussing how to select default programs in
Windows 10.
To disable the hot key for the Game Barr, from anywhere on the PC, press
Windows Key plus "I" for the Master Settings Menu. Enter Game Bar in the
search box and press enter. Windows responds with Control how Game Bar opens
& recognizes your game
Press enter.
Press the tab key twice, landing on the line
Record game clips, screen shots & broadcast with game button.
Press space bar to disable if enabled.
Now press alt plus F4.
Mission Accomplished!
If you run Windows 7 or 8.1 the evil Game Bar is not enabled by default!

Now you may typewrite with impunity!
Brian K. Lingard

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of MAX
Sent: December 1, 2018 11:22
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Game virus, was, A couple of small annoyances.

Brian wrote.

Noticed my "g" key was not inserting this letter. Found that somehow my Game
Bar settings had been set to use this key as a hot key to start/stop the
gaming features.
Curses!

Brian. I had the same trouble with outlook and I clicked on something and
got my G key back but ever since then when I open and close outlook there is
a message on the screen that says press control G to ... I have forgotten
the rest. This started right after I read a message sent from someone's I
phone. I call it my game virus although it doesn't seem to be a harmful
virus. I am defining a virus the same way gardeners define a weed. A weed
is any plant that is growing where it isn't wanted. To me a virus is any
program that runs where and when it isn't wanted. If you ever figure out
how to get rid of it pleas share the information with me.

73 (Regards).
Max K 4 O D S.
I've Never Lost the Wonder.
Antique Electronics Site: http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Tony,

I couldn't have said it any better. While I agree that one should learn how to browse the internet with powerful commands, text nav is not a replacement for web browsing commands. My mother doesn't go on the internet very much except to look at family pictures on facebook. I haven't started working with text nav yet but I think it'll be very helpful when I go on the Dodgers web site. Thanks very much for this add-on.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Malykh
Sent: Monday, December 3, 2018 9:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Gene,
It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But:
1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the layout of this website.
2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites.
And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then move on to more powerful commands?
3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too complicated". I only try to solve this problem.
4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here.
5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future development.

Best
Tony



On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll discuss some points:
First, something that I can comment on very briefly. You only tried
the skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one
article. I said that on some sites, one method works better and on
others, another does. The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful command.

It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles on
web pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you
say. My concern is that many people who can learn other ways that
would give them far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble
doing so may be disuaded from doing so. So perhaps you should discuss
just what this is for and its limitations when you promote or describe
it. It is a reading add-on that allows you to skip to the start of an
article and skip all interruptions to the article such as groups of
links to related material, advertisements image descriptions, and
perhaps other things I haven't thought of. I think that making this
clear and saying that those who want to use the Internet in a wide
variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music sites and
search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the other
ways of web navigation NVDA offers. I don't object to the add-on but
there are many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or
self-confidence, severely limit themselves because they don't realize
or believe they can't do things they can do. I'm not sure just how
you would present the add-on but for a lot of people this would be an
important convenience but you are extremely limited if you don't know
enough about web page navigation to use search sites. Even many of the older people you are discussing, I suspect, would want to know how to do basic searches.

When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't
have any idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more
knowledgeable user? Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean
the information is better but I consider it to be information to be
aware of, whether someone is a high ranking member of a list, an
employee of Microsoft or some other relevant company or organization,
and other information, if available that may help me assess his
reliability. None of this is heard in the current way the add-on works.

and there are lots of other kinds of forums. Some people like to hang
out on political forums. they might well want to know who is writing
so they can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping,
skimming, or paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
there are an enormous number of forums. As I said, I don't know if
the add-on can have some sort of forums mode. I don't have the
technical knowledge to know.

also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic
reading mode. This is an important feature. Many people may use the
add-on to find the beginning of an article but may not continue to use
it to read the article because they don't want to issue a command
every few sentences while reading. If there were an automatic read
command, this would allow people to read as they would when using the
speak to end command. But the add-on would skip any extraneous
material and read the entire article without interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command. .

And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed pages
of a newspaper. A bit of information may be provided about guest
columnists that may be useful to readers. If someone works at a
conservative think tank, his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal one.
If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that. That
puts me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he works.
If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is important.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to
browse Internet


Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav. First, it isn't a
substitute for learning the layout and structures of web pages. If
you use it before you know these things, you may not learn to deal
with other than straight reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when reading
the page you used is not correct. it is thirteen times more
efficient if you don't know how to work with internet pages for
reading something like an article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of
links command, the letter n. That gets you much much closer to the
article text because it skips most of the material on this page
before the article starts. On some pages, move by heading works
better. On some, move by skip nnavigation works bettter. on some,
move by heading, then using skip navigation links works better. On
some, the find command works better.
You
may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same way.
I want to be clear. I am not saying that the add-on isn't very
useful in skipping to the first sentence of an article. But you
don't hear the author, you may not hear introductory material you
might want to hear, and, if the article is more than two or three
paragraphs, it would be exceedingly tedious to issue the move to next
paragraph command repeatedly. For a somewhat long news article or a
somewhat long magazine article, I would imagine you might have to
issue the command twenty or thirty or forty or more times. The
add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on. It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other
information that might be of interest such as what rating the person
has for reliability or what his credentials are. Also, as you
continue to read and even if you know when a second post is beginning
to be read, you don't know who it is from. You can't be sure all the
time, I would think, who is commenting on comments for the first time
or who is making comments after making other comments. If the add-on
is going to really be useful in such an environment, it needs to do
more than just skip through entries by paragraph and not give you any
information such as what I described. I don't know if this can be
done. I don't know if a forums mode can be developed. That is f o r
u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some people
call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to
discourage its further development. Critics mmay be your best
friends in such situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading, I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that
notify me of something when I am reading an article and am not
interested in knowing such other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to
browse Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh












Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Sam Bushman
 

I for one think textnav is great. I think the more ways we can find out what's on a page and the more ways we have to get to the content that matters the better.

A quick question though:
What actually happens when you press alt-shift down or up arrows.

Does it intelligently search for where to start reading? How does it actually find the start of an article etc to read.

Thanks so much for all your work on this.
Sam

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Malykh
Sent: Monday, December 3, 2018 10:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Gene,
It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But:
1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the layout of this website.
2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites.
And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then move on to more powerful commands?
3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too complicated". I only try to solve this problem.
4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here.
5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future development.

Best
Tony



On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll discuss some points:
First, something that I can comment on very briefly. You only tried
the skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one
article. I said that on some sites, one method works better and on
others, another does. The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful command.

It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles on
web pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you
say. My concern is that many people who can learn other ways that
would give them far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble
doing so may be disuaded from doing so. So perhaps you should discuss
just what this is for and its limitations when you promote or describe
it. It is a reading add-on that allows you to skip to the start of an
article and skip all interruptions to the article such as groups of
links to related material, advertisements image descriptions, and
perhaps other things I haven't thought of. I think that making this
clear and saying that those who want to use the Internet in a wide
variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music sites and
search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the other
ways of web navigation NVDA offers. I don't object to the add-on but
there are many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or
self-confidence, severely limit themselves because they don't realize
or believe they can't do things they can do. I'm not sure just how
you would present the add-on but for a lot of people this would be an
important convenience but you are extremely limited if you don't know
enough about web page navigation to use search sites. Even many of the older people you are discussing, I suspect, would want to know how to do basic searches.

When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't
have any idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more
knowledgeable user? Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean
the information is better but I consider it to be information to be
aware of, whether someone is a high ranking member of a list, an
employee of Microsoft or some other relevant company or organization,
and other information, if available that may help me assess his
reliability. None of this is heard in the current way the add-on works.

and there are lots of other kinds of forums. Some people like to hang
out on political forums. they might well want to know who is writing
so they can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping,
skimming, or paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
there are an enormous number of forums. As I said, I don't know if
the add-on can have some sort of forums mode. I don't have the
technical knowledge to know.

also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic
reading mode. This is an important feature. Many people may use the
add-on to find the beginning of an article but may not continue to use
it to read the article because they don't want to issue a command
every few sentences while reading. If there were an automatic read
command, this would allow people to read as they would when using the
speak to end command. But the add-on would skip any extraneous
material and read the entire article without interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command. .

And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed pages
of a newspaper. A bit of information may be provided about guest
columnists that may be useful to readers. If someone works at a
conservative think tank, his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal one.
If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that. That
puts me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he works.
If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is important.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to
browse Internet


Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav. First, it isn't a
substitute for learning the layout and structures of web pages. If
you use it before you know these things, you may not learn to deal
with other than straight reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when reading
the page you used is not correct. it is thirteen times more
efficient if you don't know how to work with internet pages for
reading something like an article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of
links command, the letter n. That gets you much much closer to the
article text because it skips most of the material on this page
before the article starts. On some pages, move by heading works
better. On some, move by skip nnavigation works bettter. on some,
move by heading, then using skip navigation links works better. On
some, the find command works better.
You
may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same way.
I want to be clear. I am not saying that the add-on isn't very
useful in skipping to the first sentence of an article. But you
don't hear the author, you may not hear introductory material you
might want to hear, and, if the article is more than two or three
paragraphs, it would be exceedingly tedious to issue the move to next
paragraph command repeatedly. For a somewhat long news article or a
somewhat long magazine article, I would imagine you might have to
issue the command twenty or thirty or forty or more times. The
add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on. It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other
information that might be of interest such as what rating the person
has for reliability or what his credentials are. Also, as you
continue to read and even if you know when a second post is beginning
to be read, you don't know who it is from. You can't be sure all the
time, I would think, who is commenting on comments for the first time
or who is making comments after making other comments. If the add-on
is going to really be useful in such an environment, it needs to do
more than just skip through entries by paragraph and not give you any
information such as what I described. I don't know if this can be
done. I don't know if a forums mode can be developed. That is f o r
u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some people
call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to
discourage its further development. Critics mmay be your best
friends in such situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading, I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that
notify me of something when I am reading an article and am not
interested in knowing such other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to
browse Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh












Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Tony Malykh
 

Gene,
It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse
mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not
replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some
webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I
agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But:
1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can
quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the
layout of this website.
2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn
twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav
keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites.
And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they
can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember
myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years
ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very
frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single
command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then
move on to more powerful commands?
3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too
complicated". I only try to solve this problem.
4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the
user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go
back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a
replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily
routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many
NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here.
5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It
wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic
reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future
development.

Best
Tony

On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll discuss some points:
First, something that I can comment on very briefly. You only tried the
skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one article. I
said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another
does. The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful command.

It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles on web
pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you say. My
concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give them
far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be disuaded
from doing so. So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for and its
limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on that
allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all interruptions to
the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements
image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of. I think
that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the Internet in
a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music sites and
search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the other ways
of web navigation NVDA offers. I don't object to the add-on but there are
many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or self-confidence,
severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they can't
do things they can do. I'm not sure just how you would present the add-on
but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but you are
extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation to use
search sites. Even many of the older people you are discussing, I suspect,
would want to know how to do basic searches.

When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't have any
idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more knowledgeable
user? Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the information is
better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether someone
is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some other
relevant company or organization, and other information, if available that
may help me assess his reliability. None of this is heard in the current
way the add-on works.

and there are lots of other kinds of forums. Some people like to hang out
on political forums. they might well want to know who is writing so they
can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping, skimming, or
paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
there are an enormous number of forums. As I said, I don't know if the
add-on can have some sort of forums mode. I don't have the technical
knowledge to know.

also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic reading
mode. This is an important feature. Many people may use the add-on to find
the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the
article because they don't want to issue a command every few sentences while
reading. If there were an automatic read command, this would allow people
to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the add-on
would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without
interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command. .

And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed pages of a
newspaper. A bit of information may be provided about guest columnists that
may be useful to readers. If someone works at a conservative think tank,
his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal one.
If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that. That puts
me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he works.
If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is important.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav. First, it isn't a
substitute
for learning the layout and structures of web pages. If you use it
before
you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than straight
reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when reading the
page you used is not correct. it is thirteen times more efficient if you
don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something like an
article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of links
command, the letter n. That gets you much much closer to the article
text
because it skips most of the material on this page before the article
starts. On some pages, move by heading works better. On some, move by
skip
nnavigation works bettter. on some, move by heading, then using skip
navigation links works better. On some, the find command works better.
You
may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same way.
I want to be clear. I am not saying that the add-on isn't very useful in
skipping to the first sentence of an article. But you don't hear the
author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear,
and,
if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be
exceedingly
tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly. For a
somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I would
imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or forty or
more times. The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading
uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on. It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other information
that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for
reliability
or what his credentials are. Also, as you continue to read and even if
you
know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who it is
from. You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is commenting
on
comments for the first time or who is making comments after making other
comments. If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an
environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by
paragraph
and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't know
if
this can be done. I don't know if a forums mode can be developed. That
is
f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some people
call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to discourage
its
further development. Critics mmay be your best friends in such
situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading,
I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of
something when I am reading an article and am not interested in knowing
such
other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to browse
Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh












NVDA reading incorrect content when focus is on the Main frame of the page

tarveen.kaur@...
 

When we try navigating the below URL
https://sso.rumba.int.pearsoncmg.com/sso/login?profile=realize&k12int=true&service=https%3A%2F%2Fcert-www.realizedev.com%2Fcommunity%2Fj_spring_cas_security_check

Observe the issue that when focus in on MAIN FRAME it reads help and on HELP button it doesn't notify user,
Steps to repro
1) Launch URL
https://sso.rumba.int.pearsoncmg.com/sso/login?profile=realize&k12int=true&service=https%3A%2F%2Fcert-www.realizedev.com%2Fcommunity%2Fj_spring_cas_security_check
2) Press SHIFT+TAB from username
3) Observe tab focus moves to HELP and reader would read help
4) Press SHIFT+TAB again, focus would move to main frame
5) Press Shift+TAb, focus would move to main URL
6) PRESS TAB again, you will see focus moves to main frame and reads HELP,(That's incorrect)
7) Again press tab, focus would move to HELP and will not be notifying user that he is on HELP
Please confirm is this a issue with NVDA, if not how can we fix the same.


Re: Latest Alpha snap fixed my problems that were in Fridays Snap

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Which problem?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io" <the.big.white.shepherd=googlemail.com@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 1:50 PM
Subject: [nvda] Latest Alpha snap fixed my problems that were in Fridays Snap


Hi Devs thanks for the fix now I am back to using the latest Alpha snap from to day again weather the fix was meant or not it now works as expected.


Re: A few ideas about simplifying the structure of NVDA's "regular expression"

 

On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 03:00 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
I think its a more general wish that if you can define your needs it should be possible to create a rule from easy to enter needs.
All due respect, this is already possible for "easy" matches, even for the relatively uninitiated.

It is incredibly complex, "if this then match this way, but if that then match that way," situations where regular expressions shine.  The kinds of matching one would, say, typically be doing with a find command is entered in a remarkably similar way.

Complex, variable pattern matching is, by definition, not easy and I would never propose getting rid of one of the most powerful pattern matching mechanisms ever created because a select few don't like it.  If someone can come up with the AI to take a verbal description of a complex pattern match (or written description) and translate that, then more power to them.  But that would still require the end user to be precise about what they wanted to match and under what conditions it was to be matched, and it is generally imprecision in even knowing that where the problem lies.  No one said it better than H.L. Mencken:

Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong.


--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Latest Alpha snap fixed my problems that were in Fridays Snap

Kevin Cussick
 

Hi Devs thanks for the fix now I am back to using the latest Alpha snap from to day again weather the fix was meant or not it now works as expected.


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

 

Yes, that's a great addition to NVDA. Thanks Tony.
Nevzat

On 12/3/18, Antony Stone <antony.stone@nvda.open.source.it> wrote:
Please could you add an explicit statement indicating the licence under
which
this add-on is made available? The source code is clearly available on
Github, but is this under some version of GPL, a BSD licence, Apache...?

Thanks,


Antony.

On Monday 03 December 2018 at 01:25:18, Tony Malykh wrote:

Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to browse
Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh



--
"When you talk about Linux versus Windows, you're talking about which
operating system is the best value for money and fit for purpose. That's a
very
basic decision customers can make if they have the information available to

them. Quite frankly if we lose to Linux because our customers say it's
better
value for money, tough luck for us."

- Steve Vamos, MD of Microsoft Australia

Please reply to the
list;
please *don't* CC
me.




Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Antony Stone
 

Please could you add an explicit statement indicating the licence under which
this add-on is made available? The source code is clearly available on
Github, but is this under some version of GPL, a BSD licence, Apache...?

Thanks,


Antony.

On Monday 03 December 2018 at 01:25:18, Tony Malykh wrote:

Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to browse
Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh



--
"When you talk about Linux versus Windows, you're talking about which
operating system is the best value for money and fit for purpose. That's a very
basic decision customers can make if they have the information available to
them. Quite frankly if we lose to Linux because our customers say it's better
value for money, tough luck for us."

- Steve Vamos, MD of Microsoft Australia

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Gerardo Corripio
 

What’s the difference between using this add-on, versus NVDA+Contrl+f to find somehting?

Gera
Enviado desde mi iPhone SE de Telcel

El 2 dic 2018, a la(s) 6:25 p. m., Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@gmail.com> escribió:

Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to browse Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use. Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh





Canada's Literature For the Blind Post Free Concession

Brian K. Lingard
 

Dear Tyler & List:
Trimmed several previous messages discussing stats on Braille display usage & government subsidies available for Braille displays.

The reason CNIB charges the maximum the Ontario ADP program will pay is simple, to effect maximum funds transfer to CNIB when ADP purchases goods, CNIB is an authorized Ontario ADP dealer, The Howe Press of Perkins School is not and is in a foreign country.
CNIB also loves veterans of Canada's Forces, as Veterans Affairs Canada never looks for a lower price for goods & services for veterans, accepting CNIB's prices. Not sure if other suppliers to Ontario ADP or Veterans Affairs Canada use a similar pricing model. If you wish to know what CNIB uses the profit on their sales of goods & services for, become a voting member of CNIB. Membership is available to anyone, client sighted alike. Membership is $5/year, lifetime is $100 or $150,you get a vote at the AGM of members, can stand for office, as well as have a vote at your Division and District AGM. Should you be voted onto their Finance or Audit Committees, I expect they will provide all manner of interesting facts & figures, just do not ask to see the spreadsheets providing the breakdown of salaries & wages by employee or expect to receive meaningful replies to questions as to whether the organization pays full commission, receives a preferential rate or deals with a Discount broker, such as TD Direct Trading or similar firms connected with most of our Chartered Banks. It appears many firms treat CNIB as a Piggy bank, charging for goods & services not actually provided, as one of Canada's leading hotel chains told a guest who was having their bill charged to CNIB, the hotel guest questioned one or more items billed to their room which they had not ordered, nor the hotel provided. You would know the hotel chain well, it runs many four and five diamond houses in Canada as well as in other countries. Therefore, if their broker for stock and bond transactions chooses to bill CNIB his full retail commission on transactions that would qualify for the Institutional commission, a fraction of retail, the CNIB National Board of Directors, will likely not question whether they could obtain just as good investment counsel and service on transactions at the same firm or elsewhere. This is partly due to the board members having no or limited business savvy, or perhaps other reasons, best not discussed on a public forum.
You are best to refer to the section Literature for the Blind in the Canada Postal Guide for the exact provisions of the concession, available from Public Works & Government Services Canada, Ottawa, Ont or Reneuf Publishing, a major dealer.
Or, telephone Canada Post Customer Service on their convenient toll-free number.

In general, the concession covers recorded or Braille letters, even Moon type would qualify, intended to be read by blind persons.
Includes Braille paper, writing equipment, parts for a Braille printing press, and related stuff. Not sure if it specifically mentions goods such as Braille or talking clocks, watches or a life-size replica of a clock high in its tower, in Westminster, London, with its largest bell known as Big Ben. A full-size replica of this clock would not meet the Canada Post 30 lb. weight limit on Literature for the blind. There are clockmakers in Toronto, and Ottawa willing to install and maintain your chiming tower clock with the Westminster Chime. They require a tower to install it in as well as help from a Hoisting Engineer with a crane of sufficient capacity.
Not sure about the clockmaker, however, the Bell Foundry which made the bells sharing Big Ben's belfry is still in business in the White chapel district of London. They can probably recommend a suitable clockmaker.

The concession offers similar benefits for qualifying mail addressed for delivery to the USA as well as other foreign lands. Mot sure if it gets a plane ride or goes by surface. It travels by airmail if this will expedite delivery within Canada. Believe foreign airmail service is available at Small Packet postage rate.

As this discussion is unrelated to NVDA, I recommend further discussion be taken to acb-chat@acblists.org or directly with me.
e-mail: BKL@NCF.CA
Tel: +1 (613_) 7225-66602 087:00-23:00 Eastern Standard Time, 7 days a week.
Brian K. Lingard

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf of Tyler Wood
Sent: December 1, 2018 4:37
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A random question, related to screen readers in general

Hi Brian,

I'm sorry - I'm just making sure I'm reading your message correctly.

Am I able to take advantage of free matter for the blind in Canada? Can I use this for sending things out of Canada or only receiving them and what specific items are included in that?

thank you so much for this information. CNIB does love to charge amazingly high prices for just about everything - and yet their services in pertinent areas, like mobility etc., suffers.
On 2018-12-01 2:07 a.m., Brian K. Lingard wrote:
Dear Erik & List:

If you quoted the CNIB price for a Perkins Classic Brailler, you may
find the price they are sold by Howe Press, Perkins School for The
Blind, Watertown, MA USA is significantly cheaper even after
converting their price in US funds to Canadian Dollars. Seems the
fewer hands these units pass through, the cheaper the price. Howe
Press is the makers. They offer excellent delivery by Free Matter for
The Blind from Watertown. I habitually buy all accessories for my
Brailler from them as they always have the items in stock.
At one point, CNIB was selling Perkins Braillers for $1,200/each, the
sum Ontario Assistive Devices Program would pay for them, while Howe
Press sold them for $US800. Even after conversion to Canadian Dollars,
I saved money, CNIB was as usual at the time, out of stock, did not
stock any accessories such as the wooden case, Sound Pad Etc. Howe
did, I had the unit in hand within about a week. It is interesting how
CNIB prices goods at the Maximum Ontario ADP will pay. While CNIB has
no shareholders to distribute profits to, it does not prevent them
reaping handsome profits. You can purchase Braille paper from APH,
Louisville, KY at a handsome savings over CNIB prices. Uncertain as to
why, CNIB pays postage on orders sent by mail, despite the Literature
for The Blind Post-Free concession covering everything imaginable for
the Blind, including Braille Press parts, paper Braillers Etc. with
Insurance and/or Registration at no fee. The concession is available
to any address in Canada, including addresses with fly-in only mail delivery, for points in the High Arctic.
Similar concessions apply to Foreign addresses, with the restriction
that only documents, not merchandise,, may be sent registered. Allow
1-2 weeks for delivery from APH by Free Matter.


Re: thunderbird 60 brakes reading of attachments

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

You would be better off putting this up as an issue on Github. a lot of the devs are very busy looking at the upcoming release and probably not looking here for problems to solve.
I don't use Tbird so cannot comment myself.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "enes sarıbaş" <enes.saribas@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 6:33 AM
Subject: [nvda] thunderbird 60 brakes reading of attachments


hi,

Str:

Add an attachment to a message in the compose dialogue box, and shift tab to attachments list.

expected: nvda reads attachment in a list, nd gives options to navigate and delete individual attachments.

actual: nvda anounces attachment list, attach file, alt+m

Could one of the devs please look into this?



Re: A few ideas about simplifying the structure of NVDA's "regular expression"

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

With respect that is not how I read what he said. I think its a more general wish that if you can define your needs it should be possible to create a rule from easy to enter needs.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few ideas about simplifying the structure of NVDA's "regular expression"


You are under the mistaken idea that any piece of software can be "all things to all people."

That is not, and never shall be, the way it works.

It's not wrong to express your wants and needs, but it's a very bad idea to believe that your own wants and needs should be the primary concern.
--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.*

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back


Re: A few ideas about simplifying the structure of NVDA's "regular expression"

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I get the impression he was thinking of a kind of translator, ie here is what I need to happen, how can this be turned into a regular expression, assuming it can of course.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few ideas about simplifying the structure of NVDA's "regular expression"


On the contrary. I will be the first to admit that Regular Expression syntax is no breeze to learn, but it is by far the best pattern matching mechanism out there. Simple pattern matches require very simple regular expressions, while incredibly complex patterns that can be described verbally can be coded as regular expressions.

Mathematical notation is handled already by several different mechanisms.

Python is not any more or any less complicated than JAWS scripting, in my opinion.

None of this is primarily aimed at the end user, nor can it really be. Those who have complex and specific needs generally need to learn how to code for them.
--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.*

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Gene
 

I'll discuss some points: 
First, something that I can comment on very briefly.  You only tried the skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one article.  I said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another does.  The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful command.
 
It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles on web pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you say.  My concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give them far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be disuaded from doing so.  So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for and its limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on that allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all interruptions to the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of.  I think that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the Internet in a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music sites and search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the other ways of web navigation NVDA offers.  I don't object to the add-on but there are many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or self-confidence, severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they can't do things they can do.  I'm not sure just how you would present the add-on but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but you are extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation to use search sites.  Even many of the older people you are discussing, I suspect, would want to know how to do basic searches. 
 
When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't have any idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more knowledgeable user?  Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the information is better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether someone is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some other relevant company or organization, and other information, if available that may help me assess his reliability.  None of this is heard in the current way the add-on works. 
 
and there are lots of other kinds of forums.  Some people like to hang out on political forums.  they might well want to know who is writing so they can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping, skimming, or paying close attention to posts of certain authors. 
there are an enormous number of forums.  As I said, I don't know if the add-on can have some sort of forums mode.  I don't have the technical knowledge to know. 
 
also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic reading mode.  This is an important feature.  Many people may use the add-on to find the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the article because they don't want to issue a command every few sentences while reading.  If there were an automatic read command, this would allow people to read as they would when using the speak to end command.  But the add-on would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command.  .
 
And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed pages of a newspaper.  A bit of information may be provided about guest columnists that may be useful to readers.  If someone works at a conservative think tank, his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal one.  If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that.  That puts me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he works.  If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is important. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> I have some comments on your demo for TextNav.  First, it isn't a substitute
> for learning the layout and structures of web pages.  If you use it before
> you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than straight
> reading situations well.
>
> Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when reading the
> page you used is not correct.  it is thirteen times more efficient if you
> don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something like an
> article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your comparison.
> You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of links
> command, the letter n.  That gets you much much closer to the article text
> because it skips most of the material on this page before the article
> starts.  On some pages, move by heading works better.  On some, move by skip
> nnavigation works bettter.  on some, move by heading, then using skip
> navigation links works better.  On some, the find command works better.  You
> may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you experiment.
> Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same way.
> I want to be clear.  I am not saying that the add-on isn't very useful in
> skipping to the first sentence of an article.  But you don't hear the
> author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear, and,
> if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be exceedingly
> tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly.  For a
> somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I would
> imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or forty or
> more times.  The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading
> uninterruptedly.
>
> And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
> add-on.  It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
> information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other information
> that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for reliability
> or what his credentials are.  Also, as you continue to read and even if you
> know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who it is
> from.  You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is commenting on
> comments for the first time or who is making comments after making other
> comments.  If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an
> environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by paragraph
> and not give you any information such as what I described.  I don't know if
> this can be done.  I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.  That is
> f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some people
> call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.
>
> In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to discourage its
> further development.  Critics mmay be your best friends in such situations.
> But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.
>
> and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
> The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off.  If I'm reading,
> I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of
> something when I am reading an article and am not interested in knowing such
> other information.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Tony Malykh
> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
> Internet
>
>
> Hello NVDA users
>
> Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to browse
> Internet for the blind!
>
> Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
> couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
> right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
> Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
> https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo
>
> Here is the link to download TextNav:
> https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav
>
> TextNav on github:
> https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/
>
> TextNav keystrokes:
> * Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
> * Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.
>
> I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!
>
> Sincerely,
> Tony Malykh
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



thunderbird 60 brakes reading of attachments

enes sarıbaş
 

hi,

Str:

Add an attachment to a message in the compose dialogue box, and shift tab to attachments list.

expected: nvda reads attachment in a list, nd gives options to navigate and delete individual attachments.

actual: nvda anounces  attachment list, attach file, alt+m

Could one of the devs please look into this?


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Tony Malykh
 

Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony

On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav. First, it isn't a substitute
for learning the layout and structures of web pages. If you use it before
you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than straight
reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when reading the
page you used is not correct. it is thirteen times more efficient if you
don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something like an
article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of links
command, the letter n. That gets you much much closer to the article text
because it skips most of the material on this page before the article
starts. On some pages, move by heading works better. On some, move by skip
nnavigation works bettter. on some, move by heading, then using skip
navigation links works better. On some, the find command works better. You
may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same way.
I want to be clear. I am not saying that the add-on isn't very useful in
skipping to the first sentence of an article. But you don't hear the
author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear, and,
if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be exceedingly
tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly. For a
somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I would
imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or forty or
more times. The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading
uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on. It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other information
that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for reliability
or what his credentials are. Also, as you continue to read and even if you
know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who it is
from. You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is commenting on
comments for the first time or who is making comments after making other
comments. If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an
environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by paragraph
and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't know if
this can be done. I don't know if a forums mode can be developed. That is
f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some people
call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to discourage its
further development. Critics mmay be your best friends in such situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm reading,
I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of
something when I am reading an article and am not interested in knowing such
other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to browse
Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh