Date   

Re: Tips for speed reading /listening with screen readers

Rob Hudson
 

Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
That's not surprising. I just looked it up and it is a cloud-based system. It's interesting and I'm going to play with the demo. But in fairness to Eloquence, it's like comparing a calculator to a supercomputer.
Also, I think there is only one voice for US English in Google TTS. And it is a female voice. With all deference to the lovely females around the world, I prefer to listen to a male voice. Purely for hearing loss issues.


Re: Microsoft is Killing Skype Classic on September 1 -

Christo de Klerk
 

I am using the desktop version of Skype under Windows 10. As you describe, is what I do. But it seems like MS is going to push us to use the Windows 10 Universal Skype app and I need to know if this function is available in it and, if so, how.

Regards

Christo

On 2018/07/17 04:18 PM, Joshua Hendrickson wrote:
Yes. With the new version of skype if I call a conference line, I hit
ctrl d to access the dial pad, then just use my numpad keys toe nter
in the access code. I am using the desktop version not the app as I
have windows7 not windows10.

On 7/17/18, Christo de Klerk <christodeklerk@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello all

I am still using the old Skype program, but if I am going to be pushed
to use the Universal Windows Skype app, I need to find out how to go
about handling this issue: I sometimes dial into a conferencing service
and, once connected, I have to type in an access code. Is it possible in
the Skype app to get to a keypad or some way of entering an access code
and, if this is possible, how does one do it? I hope someone has figured
this out already.

Kind regards

Christo


On 2018/07/17 01:37 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Yes its been all over the access areas for a couple of days. I got rid
of it a while back. it was just so often  knackered by apparently
simple updates even in the xp days that I ran out of patience with the
Skype writers, and sadly Microsofts record has been no better.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@gmail.com>
To: "Nvda List" <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 6:28 PM
Subject: [nvda] Microsoft is Killing Skype Classic on September 1 -


https://www.thurrott.com/cloud/microsoft-consumer-services/skype/163337/microsoft-killing-skype-classic-september-1









Re: Microsoft is Killing Skype Classic on September 1 -

Joshua Hendrickson
 

Yes. With the new version of skype if I call a conference line, I hit
ctrl d to access the dial pad, then just use my numpad keys toe nter
in the access code. I am using the desktop version not the app as I
have windows7 not windows10.

On 7/17/18, Christo de Klerk <christodeklerk@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello all

I am still using the old Skype program, but if I am going to be pushed
to use the Universal Windows Skype app, I need to find out how to go
about handling this issue: I sometimes dial into a conferencing service
and, once connected, I have to type in an access code. Is it possible in
the Skype app to get to a keypad or some way of entering an access code
and, if this is possible, how does one do it? I hope someone has figured
this out already.

Kind regards

Christo


On 2018/07/17 01:37 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Yes its been all over the access areas for a couple of days. I got rid
of it a while back. it was just so often  knackered by apparently
simple updates even in the xp days that I ran out of patience with the
Skype writers, and sadly Microsofts record has been no better.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@gmail.com>
To: "Nvda List" <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 6:28 PM
Subject: [nvda] Microsoft is Killing Skype Classic on September 1 -


https://www.thurrott.com/cloud/microsoft-consumer-services/skype/163337/microsoft-killing-skype-classic-september-1









--
Joshua Hendrickson

Joshua Hendrickson


Re: possible eloquence solution

Damien Garwood
 

Hi Josh,
Eloquence? Open-sourced? Owned by Microsoft? You're joking aren't ya?
Seriously though. The sad and sorry fact is, Eloquence, like Keynote, is a very old synthesiser indeed. With that in mind, due to its age, and the possibility that they probably designed it for NASA spacecrafts (Well, the price tag would certainly suggest it), companies whose prices and DRM policies are stuck in the 1980's are highly unlikely to jump to the 21st century and say, "Well, nothing's happening, let's just open source it". They'd be more likely to say, "Over my dead body". All that hard work for nothing, eh?
As for Microsoft owning it? That's a double whammy.
Firstly, unfortunate though the game of life can sometimes be, we have no choice but to face facts. The majority of TTS voices are now leaning towards a more so-called "natural" feel. This includes Microsoft, who have attempted to make all their voices sound natural right from the SAPI4 days. Sapi5 and OneCore are no exception. Personally, I think it makes it sound choppy, and lag like trash. So then, the only other option will be ESpeak which, while portable, responsive and open-source, as far as usability goes, sounds to me like a trip back to hardware synths of the 1960's.
Secondly, since Microsoft do a good job of butchering everything that they so much as walk near...No. The idea of Microsoft owning something as quality as Eloquence makes me feel sick. Several potential pages of Microsoft-directed rant suppressed, with great difficulty.
Put it this way. If I were any good at self-learning new systems, I would've switched to Windows 10 long ago. As it is, I'm still on 7. And there was me thinking that was too big a change when I was forced to upgrade from XP!
Cheers,
Damien.

On 17/07/2018 01:10 PM, Josh Kennedy wrote:
It seems like unless this problem is solved it will keep coming up. So I just went into feedback hub and I recommend all of you do the same. I wrote the following feedback to Microsoft.
Please purchase all rites to CodeFactory Nuance Eloquence TTS. Offer it as a free downloadable sapi5 and OneCore voice addons under ease of access in windows10. And on the Microsoft website as sapi5 for windows7 users. Also please maintain the android version so it keeps working and perhaps lower the price to $2 or $3. Nuance CodeFactory licenses are too restrictive. Adding Eloquence to microsoft’s voice portfolio would benefit those with hearing impairments. So if Microsoft owned it, whenever you buy a copy of windows or a new pc, you also pay for the rite to use eloquence on any pc you buy.and if you don’t want it, you just do not go into ease of access and download it. Nuance copyright is stuck back in the 80s and early 90s and has to change. If not, this issue will probably keep cropping up.
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>; for Windows 10


Re: Microsoft is Killing Skype Classic on September 1 -

Christo de Klerk
 

Hello all

I am still using the old Skype program, but if I am going to be pushed to use the Universal Windows Skype app, I need to find out how to go about handling this issue: I sometimes dial into a conferencing service and, once connected, I have to type in an access code. Is it possible in the Skype app to get to a keypad or some way of entering an access code and, if this is possible, how does one do it? I hope someone has figured this out already.

Kind regards

Christo

On 2018/07/17 01:37 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Yes its been all over the access areas for a couple of days. I got rid of it a while back. it was just so often  knackered by apparently simple updates even in the xp days that I ran out of patience with the Skype writers, and sadly Microsofts record has been no better.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@gmail.com>
To: "Nvda List" <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 6:28 PM
Subject: [nvda] Microsoft is Killing Skype Classic on September 1 -


https://www.thurrott.com/cloud/microsoft-consumer-services/skype/163337/microsoft-killing-skype-classic-september-1




Re: Tips for speed reading /listening with screen readers

Devin Prater
 

The one problem with Google TTS, especially in Android and ChromeOS, is that it inflects commas and periods the same, just ing differently. Eloquence handles commas in all kinds of situations, even, you know, like in clauses, like you know, where it inflects perfectly in that case. Apple voices do a good job of this as well. Yes, though, Google's pronouniation, even of uncommon words, like Blazblue, pronounced Blaze Blue, a Japanese video game franchise. But that doesn't change the fact that Google's inflection doesn't take into account different punctuation. 
--


Re: Beginning NVDA Developer exam: a prototype version

Howard <howard.lee.harkness@...>
 

Very interesting collection of questions, Joseph! Thank you for putting this list together.

For me, it did a good job of pointing out what I do NOT know about N V D A. I am a programmer by profession, but I have not tackled N V D A development. For somebody like me, where is the best place to start to learn how N V D A is structured? Is there a developer's tutorial?

On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 2:48 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

Hi all,

 

A few weeks ago on a subgroup of NVDA users list, I announced the availability of an exam that tests people’s readiness to become beginning NVDA developer. A few days after that, I announced that this exam will be made available to the public, and here it is. I recommend test driving this exam (answering all questions) and let me know if you have feedback on this.

 

A prototype certification exam for beginning NVDA developer:

 

Instructions: the questions below will let you meet different facets of NVDA development (both add-ons and Core, although emphasis will be on Core for now). For those seeking to move onto NVDA development should answer ALL questions. Total points will be 100, with passing score being 70 or higher. There will be up to 10 extra credit points, and they will count when calculating scores (if you choose to do them). Answers should be submitted to me Joseph Lee (me) via email no later than July 31, 2018 at 5 PM pacific (8 PM Eastern, 00:00 UTC on August 1st). For some questions, have the NVDA source code in front of you.

 

Additionally, for questions 3 and 4, you can select one of them to be a time-limited question where you have an hour to answer it (be sure to have a stopwatch handy). The timer should begin the moment specified by the question(s). In the answer sheet (email reply), you need to provide how long it took you to answer this question, and without that, five points will be deducted from your score.

 

A special note for folks who took the NVDA Development course: you don't have to take the exam again, and you'll notice slight increase in difficulty with this version.

 

Question 1: a new user of NVDA wants to know the answer to the following questions (write your answer in complete sentences, and answer it as though you’re talking to this user, not me; points: 20, five points per question):

* How does a screen reader work?

* Can you tell me how I can move to a control that can’t be navigated with a keyboard?

* If I press NVDA+Tab, what information will I hear?

* If I found an issue with NVDA, where do I go to report them and what info should I include?

* Extra credit (five points): I want to use my favorite settings before I log onto my computer. How can I do that?

 

Question 2: pick four commands from the following list. For each command, give its command, a short description, and a trace of how the command works. Then if you want, explain in your own words how the command really works. Write it as though you’re producing a video tutorial for power users who wants to know more about how a command works (points: 20, five points per command):

* Read title

* Read focused object

* Read current navigator object

* Move to the next object

* Move to the previous object

* Move navigator object to focus

* Move system focus to the navigator object

* Read foreground window

* Developer info for the navigator object

* Move mouse to current navigator object

* Move between table cells

* Save and revert to saved configuration

* Current app module

* Navigator object location

* Opening NVDA settings panels (any panel will do)

* Review cursor (any cursor command will do)

If you choose to answer settings panel or review cursor commands, choose only one command, as they are a collection of commands. If your answer consists entirely of four commands from one or both of these, you’ll get zero points.

 

The next two questions are “time limited” questions and you need to mark one of them as such. For example, you can mark question 3 as “time limited”, which means question 4 will not be subject to time limits. Once chosen, you’ll have one hour to answer the marked question. The purpose of this exercise is to simulate time limited research (question 3) or programming lab (question 4). If you are adventurous about providing code-based solutions, choose question 4 as time limited question. If you feel writing or research is your strong point, choose question 3 as time limited question. After answering the time limited question, be sure to record how long it took you.

 

Question 3: These days, one of the biggest things software development firms (and projects) look for is ability to research things and communicate with others. To get you to experience this, choose two terms from the list below and write an “internals” (explanatory) paragraph (or two) as though you’re giving a talk at a developers’ conference. Your answer must contain definitions, explanations (in your own words), use cases, examples, and a place in NVDA where it is used. Extra points will be given for one or more of the following additions: actual NVDA code that demonstrates the concept, a reference or two outside of NVDA, and an offer of code or concept redesign to make it useful in the future, or a flaw with current implementations (overall points: 20, ten per item).

If you chose to mark this question as “time limited”, you can just write definitions, use cases, explanations, examples, and if time permits, actual NVDA code examples; no need to include references, design flaws and such, but you’re more than welcome to do so within the time limit (hence extra points). Your time begins once you choose the two items you’d like to write about.

 

* NVDA’s overall architecture

* History of NVDA development and the community

* NVDA object

* Event

* Input and output

* Object hierarchy

* Review cursor

* Object properties

* Text infos

* Browse mode internals

* One accessibility API (choose from MSAA, UIA, or Java Access Bridge)

* Overlay classes

* GUI subsystem

* User configuration

* Add-ons

* NVDA release process

 

Scoring for each term:

* Three points: gave definitions.

* Five points: definitions and explanation in your own words.

* Seven points: definition, explanation, use cases and examples.

* Ten points: definitions, your explanation, use cases, examples, NVDA code example or two.

 

Question 4: when it comes to screen reader development, theory isn’t enough; now it is time to showcase your programming skills, and to do that, choose an NVDA issue on GitHub that you think you can program a solution (quickly if you mark this as “time limited”). Be sure to provide a link to the issue, your rationale for choosing it, a short description, and a basic solution design and code. Extra points if you can demonstrate that your code actually achieves something, complete with tests (points: 25).

If you mark this question as “time limited”, then you DO NEED to have at least a basic solution design and code ready within the time limit. If you chose question 3 as “time limited”, then a solution design will be acceptable; time begins the moment you choose an issue, SO CHOOSE IT WISELY!

 

Scoring:

* Five points: identified an issue you wish to work on, complete with links.

* Ten points: identified and described the issue in your own words.

* Fifteen points: identified, described, and wrote a solution design in your own words.

* Twenty points: identified, described, designed, and programmed a solution in your own words (and your own code).

* Twenty-five points: identified, described, designed, programmed, and tested your solution.

 

Extra credit (eligible if you did ALL of the parts above, including coding and testing):

* Three points: your solution was posted as a pull request.

* Five points: your pull request was reviewed by at least one reviewer, including NV Access people and noted third-party contributors (including I).

 

Question 5: being a developer means more than programming a solution. Users matter, and you need to always remember that you are users also. To help you understand this, I’d like to ask you to serve as a resident tech support engineers for users for the next few days: subscribe to the NVDA users list and answer questions on at least three topics until the end of the exam period. Be sure to provide helpful answers when asked, and show respect to users (points: 15, five per topic).

 

Scoring:

* Zero points: disrespectful answers, or answers that showed no effort from your part to understand users.

* Two points: beginning steps, such as phrasing issues in your own words.

* Three points: showing efforts at trying to reproduce the issue, or if not reproducible, telling users (with respect) that it cannot be done.

* Five points: professional answers regardless of if the solution was found.

 

The following questions are all extra credit and won’t count toward your final score. As they are community activities, your participation is highly encouraged.

 

Question 6 (extra credit, five points): review at least one NVDA add-on marked for review (for details, see NVDA Add-ons mailing list archive).

 

Question 7 (extra credit, five points): test-drive NVDA alpha or beta snapshots throughout the exam period and report bugs if any. Extra points if you can offer solutions.

 

Question 8 (extra credit, five points): find a developer outside of NVDA community that you think can contribute to NVDA in the long run.

 

Question 9 (extra credit, ten points): offer constructive comments on at least two GitHub issues. An extra five points for reviewing a pull request.

 

As noted above, anyone who gets a 70 or higher will be recognized as beginning NVDA developer.

 

P.S. You may have noticed that programming didn’t take the center stage at this exam. The reason: coding alone won’t define you and your talent as a developer. Through this exam I want you all to experience what it is like to be an actual screen reader developer: introducing new users to NVDA, coming up with helpful overviews and tutorials, networking with others and showcasing the project, proposing and programming needed solutions under possible constraints, and providing ongoing technical support for a product.

 

Good luck with the exam.

Cheers,

Joseph




--

Howard Lee Harkness
918-416-1420


Re: Tips for speed reading /listening with screen readers

Gene
 

Whatever you call it, E-Speak introduces considerable distortion when the speech is speeded up and the distortion starts at not that fast a speed up.  It gets worse as you increase speed. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Tips for speed reading /listening with screen readers

I don't try to listen at faster speeds than the default. How the hell can you notice a flutter when the speech is so fast the words run together?


On 17/07/2018 4:24 PM, Sociohack AC wrote:

I'm so used to E-speak that Eloquence is incoherent to me. But, the flutter you get in E-speak in the boost mode is hindering me to achieve faster speeds. So, I'm forcing myself to get used to Eloquence.

And yes, the so called natural sounding synthesizers are not as good at high speeds. But then, SAPI5 and one core voices aren't much behind if we compare them to these so called natural voices at moderate voices. I tried a demo of Acapella, didn't like it much. It's high quality voices do sound good, and more human like, but you can't use them at high speeds. The speech becomes incoherent. There is a clatter in the background.  When it comes to high speed functionality, there is nothing better than E[speak and Eloquence.
--
Regards,
Sociohack



Re: Tips for speed reading /listening with screen readers

Gene
 

I also suspect that in the case of Eloquence, high speed intelligibility is better, perhaps much better, when using American English instead of Brittish English.  I enjoy listening to real Brittish English.  But the Brittish English accent in Eloquence was obviously created by Americans who have no idea how to properly reproduce a Brittish accent.  It's revolting.  Being Americans, they properly reproduced the American accent. 
 
The American accent is probably clearer at fast speeds no matter what accent a person is used to because the Brittish accent degrades the speech itself, it doesn't just change the accent.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Tips for speed reading /listening with screen readers

I'm so used to E-speak that Eloquence is incoherent to me. But, the flutter you get in E-speak in the boost mode is hindering me to achieve faster speeds. So, I'm forcing myself to get used to Eloquence.

And yes, the so called natural sounding synthesizers are not as good at high speeds. But then, SAPI5 and one core voices aren't much behind if we compare them to these so called natural voices at moderate voices. I tried a demo of Acapella, didn't like it much. It's high quality voices do sound good, and more human like, but you can't use them at high speeds. The speech becomes incoherent. There is a clatter in the background.  When it comes to high speed functionality, there is nothing better than E[speak and Eloquence.
--
Regards,
Sociohack


Re: possible eloquence solution

Devin Prater
 

Microsoft would have to buy Nuance, not just CodeFactory. 
--


possible eloquence solution

Josh Kennedy
 

It seems like unless this problem is solved it will keep coming up. So I just went into feedback hub and I recommend all of you do the same. I wrote the following feedback to Microsoft.

Please purchase all rites to CodeFactory Nuance Eloquence TTS. Offer it as a free downloadable sapi5 and OneCore voice addons under ease of access in windows10. And on the Microsoft website as sapi5 for windows7 users. Also please maintain the android version so it keeps working and perhaps lower the price to $2 or $3. Nuance CodeFactory licenses are too restrictive. Adding Eloquence to microsoft’s voice portfolio would benefit those with hearing impairments. So if Microsoft owned it, whenever you buy a copy of windows or a new pc, you also pay for the rite to use eloquence on any pc you buy.and if you don’t want it, you just do not go into ease of access and download it. Nuance copyright is stuck back in the 80s and early 90s and has to change. If not, this issue will probably keep cropping up.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: Jeff's addon repository

Josh Kennedy
 

If I had the money, I would personally buy the rites to eloquence and then I would open source it. And then this whole legal argument about it could finally stop. Using it is sort of a gray area though. Because well once again, lets say I purchase sapi5 eloquence. And then I also buy jaws which also has eloquence. So legally I can use sapi5 eloquence, and eloquence as long as it is the one tied to jaws and jaws is running. But if I want to use another free eloquence addon made by a 3rd party which may offer features neither jaws eloquence nor sapi5 eloquence offers, I cannot. Because some legal document says so? How am I hurting the developer? I paid for the jaws license, I paid for the eloquence sapi5 license. They got money from me. Why should they really care if I choose to use the illegal addon especially since I legally purchased not one but multiple sapi5 copies and a copy of jaws which includes eloquence? I could even go out and purchase the official codeFactory addon. But if it turns out to not be as good of quality as the illegal addon, I would use the illegal one. It's the same with a vehicle. Heck we have more rites when it comes to buying cars and trucks than we do with software. If I could see, and if i bought a car or truck to drive around and got my driver's license. Lets say well the truck I bought I want to give it a more powerful engine. I could switch out the engine for a different one, convert it to an electric vehicle if i wish, modify the engine to give it more power, etcetera. Remove the tires and replace them with caterpillar tracks... And in a way I could open source my ideas and show others how to do all this through youtube videos. The problem is that copyright law itself has to change. It is still stuck back in the 1980s or early 1990s. There is another way to hurt if you really want to, the eloquence developers and that would be just don't buy it and use OneCore voices. But some people due to hearing or other issues need eloquence or eloquence works best for them due to the specific qualities of its speech. Perhaps, to solve this problem once and for all, since eloquence is quite old anyway, the United States and UK and Australian governments should get together, purchase all of the rites to eloquence, and then hand those rites off to microsoft under the condition that microsoft build eloquence in as a free tts as sapi5 and oneCore eloquence right into windows, and also maintain the android version so it keeps working. I suppose I will go into feedback hub and suggest this for ease-of-access features. To solve the eloquence legality issue, the cost of eloquence should be spread out where whenever you buy a new computer, which also gives you the rite to use windows, you also have the rite to use eloquence as free tts built into windows10 or downloadable from microsoft's website for windows7 and above. 


Re: NVDA vs. Narrator: NVDA still wins.

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I'm using water fox inwindows 7, its so much faster toopen pages than Firefox.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA vs. Narrator: NVDA still wins.


Hi,

Try Narrator with Chrome. I find firefox is officially awful now.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Isige
Sent: 17 July 2018 02:22
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA vs. Narrator: NVDA still wins.

So I listened to a very nice podcast about one of the new Narrator features on the Insiders build, the start guide. I fired up Narrator, just to see what it was like. Opened Firefox, and Narrator pretty much wouldn't read or navigate a site, Youtube as it happens. Popped NVDA back on, and it worked just fine.


Not to turn this into a Narrator thread, but does Narrator only work, or mostly work, with Microsoft apps? I periodically test Narrator because it's there so why not? Plus Windows is integrating it more, e.g. you can supposedly install 10 from scratch using Narrator, Narrator in safe mode, and so on. I figure that makes it worth getting familiar with if for no other reason than I'll know how to use it when it's the thing I'll need to use. But it's gonna be hard to become familiar with it if it doesn't work with chunks of the stuff I use. Is there a Narrator list or something, like this list basically? I tried looking around for something like "using Microsoft narrator with Firefox", but I just get stuff about using Narrator generally or occasional reviews of using older versions of Narrator.


I'm thankful Microsoft is making accessibility a bigger priority and giving us things like installation and safe mode, well I've never really tried either but you know, I'm glad they're there if something comes up.
But for me, Narrator's nowhere near NVDA. I know some people have implied that it is, and I'm not trying to make this a fight or anything.
So I'm sort of trying to find out, you know does all of this great functionality come from sticking solely to Microsoft's stuff? Because I don't get the hype. I can't imagine using it as my primary screen reader for any length of time. People say it's getting closer to things like NVDA. But for me, I just don't see it. Am I missing something? Because right now I think my dream scenario would be NVDA from power on, or as close as it could be managed.


Re: NVDA vs. Narrator: NVDA still wins.

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yews I noticed this hype from Microsoft. they have started visiting visually impaired charities etc, extolling the virtues of out of the box accessibility in demos, but you are right, they are always using Microsoft software. I guess it makes sense for them to get narrator fast and working with in house stuff before tackling third party things, and of course one of their latest things is similar key sequences to other screenreaders we all know.
Ahem.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Isige" <gwynn@tds.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 2:21 AM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA vs. Narrator: NVDA still wins.


So I listened to a very nice podcast about one of the new Narrator features on the Insiders build, the start guide. I fired up Narrator, just to see what it was like. Opened Firefox, and Narrator pretty much wouldn't read or navigate a site, Youtube as it happens. Popped NVDA back on, and it worked just fine.


Not to turn this into a Narrator thread, but does Narrator only work, or mostly work, with Microsoft apps? I periodically test Narrator because it's there so why not? Plus Windows is integrating it more, e.g. you can supposedly install 10 from scratch using Narrator, Narrator in safe mode, and so on. I figure that makes it worth getting familiar with if for no other reason than I'll know how to use it when it's the thing I'll need to use. But it's gonna be hard to become familiar with it if it doesn't work with chunks of the stuff I use. Is there a Narrator list or something, like this list basically? I tried looking around for something like "using Microsoft narrator with Firefox", but I just get stuff about using Narrator generally or occasional reviews of using older versions of Narrator.


I'm thankful Microsoft is making accessibility a bigger priority and giving us things like installation and safe mode, well I've never really tried either but you know, I'm glad they're there if something comes up. But for me, Narrator's nowhere near NVDA. I know some people have implied that it is, and I'm not trying to make this a fight or anything. So I'm sort of trying to find out, you know does all of this great functionality come from sticking solely to Microsoft's stuff? Because I don't get the hype. I can't imagine using it as my primary screen reader for any length of time. People say it's getting closer to things like NVDA. But for me, I just don't see it. Am I missing something? Because right now I think my dream scenario would be NVDA from power on, or as close as it could be managed.



Re: Microsoft is Killing Skype Classic on September 1 -

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Actually for those who want to try new nvda fixes for any new skype, access to a really bleeding edge snap might once again be an idea for NVAccess to consider. At the moment I see updates but not any that get onto the alpha or beta channels.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft is Killing Skype Classic on September 1 -


Hi,
We'll see. Right now, it is too early to talk about what's coming in Skype 14 (the next version of Skype for Windows 10 users), but suffice to say that I'm keeping a very close eye on changes.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 1:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft is Killing Skype Classic on September 1 -

Well I hope that the end of skype7 sees more access and ease of use put into skype now.




On 7/17/2018 8:30 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
If I remember correctly, the layout of Skype 8 for Desktop is essentially a web document. Note that for Windows 10 users, you'll be redirected to UWP version, although that, too, is changing (more to come later).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene New Zealand
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 1:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft is Killing Skype Classic on September 1 -

Hi


How much more different is skype 8 from the desk top app? I just went into the desk top version and i think it has been upgraded and looks like the app version on windows 10 Or am i getting it wrong? I think the skype 8 version will when you hit alt ke

+ lettr F will do a drop down menu but i think that is in the app as well?

I am just going to check if it is skype 8 and see how much different if it is as there is a tutorial for the app version.

Gene nz

On 7/17/2018 5:28 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
https://www.thurrott.com/cloud/microsoft-consumer-services/skype/16333
7/microsoft-killing-skype-classic-september-1








Re: Microsoft is Killing Skype Classic on September 1 -

Joshua Hendrickson
 

Hi to all. I had to update my skype from version 7 because one day my
skype became so slow it wouldn't load properly. The new version of
skype really isn't that bad. You have to do a lot of tabbing and
shift tabbing to get around, but as long as I can get to who I want to
call, that is ok for me. If anyone knows how to add people to a skype
call using the new version, I'd appreciate some tips on that. That's
one thing I haven't figured out yet. I was surprised how quickly I
learned how to use the new skype when people had said on different
lists how hard it was to use. I'm using a windows7 64 bit machine and
at least for now, things are working fine.

On 7/17/18, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
We'll see. Right now, it is too early to talk about what's coming in Skype
14 (the next version of Skype for Windows 10 users), but suffice to say that
I'm keeping a very close eye on changes.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 1:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft is Killing Skype Classic on September 1 -

Well I hope that the end of skype7 sees more access and ease of use put into
skype now.




On 7/17/2018 8:30 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
If I remember correctly, the layout of Skype 8 for Desktop is essentially
a web document. Note that for Windows 10 users, you'll be redirected to
UWP version, although that, too, is changing (more to come later).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene New
Zealand
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 1:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft is Killing Skype Classic on September 1 -

Hi


How much more different is skype 8 from the desk top app? I just went into
the desk top version and i think it has been upgraded and looks like the
app version on windows 10 Or am i getting it wrong? I think the skype 8
version will when you hit alt ke

+ lettr F will do a drop down menu but i think that is in the app as
well?

I am just going to check if it is skype 8 and see how much different if it
is as there is a tutorial for the app version.

Gene nz

On 7/17/2018 5:28 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
https://www.thurrott.com/cloud/microsoft-consumer-services/skype/16333
7/microsoft-killing-skype-classic-september-1













--
Joshua Hendrickson

Joshua Hendrickson


Re: Microsoft is Killing Skype Classic on September 1 -

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes its been all over the access areas for a couple of days. I got rid of it a while back. it was just so often knackered by apparently simple updates even in the xp days that I ran out of patience with the Skype writers, and sadly Microsofts record has been no better.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@gmail.com>
To: "Nvda List" <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 6:28 PM
Subject: [nvda] Microsoft is Killing Skype Classic on September 1 -


https://www.thurrott.com/cloud/microsoft-consumer-services/skype/163337/microsoft-killing-skype-classic-september-1


Re: New to list, newbie question, everything new starts here I guess

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

My first multitasking environment was Desqview by Quarterdeck
Very good multi tasking of dos.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 1:02 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] New to list, newbie question, everything new starts here I guess


To be honest though that would count for me for every upgrade.

I updated from dos to windows because of hardware and the fact I wanted more than 1 task.

I updated from win95 to win 98 because I could.

I updated from 98 to xp because of better drivers support etc.

I updated from xp to 7 because of security reasons and my computer died.

But I could have continued on xp for ever more.

I will update to 10 because of firstly security and secondly, I can't use anything over 6th generation pluss win7 is about dead anyway.

But if I had the choice I'd still be on stable xp.




On 7/17/2018 9:35 AM, Gene wrote:
Are there features you want or apps you want to run that you can't run now? If you have a reason to upgrade such as that, you may want to. If you are more curious and have no strong reason to do so, I have real reservations about whether its worth upgrading a computer you are satisfied with.

You may find some problem or annoyance you really don't want to deal with and you may not be happy if you upgrade just to upgrade and have one or more annoying problems, even if you solve them. And Windows 10 comes out with a major upgrade every six months, which you must accept. Some people have problems after an upgrade.

You might want to consider getting a tablet to play with Windows 10 if you are just getting it out of curiosity and not because of features or apps you consider important.

Gene


From: Rob DeZonia
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 1:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] New to list, newbie question, everything new starts here I guess


Howdy list,

I am running Windows 7. Lately I'm starting to feel like the guy running XP when there's a better option available. I remember when Windows 10 first came out NVDA advised not upgrading yet. I realize that was many Windows 10 updates and a few NVDA releases ago. My question is, since you are all it seems experienced users, should I take the plunge finally? How steep is the learning curve on Windows 10, and is Edge workable with NVDA? Also I'm curious about apps since I've never tried Windows 8.1 either.
Thanks for your help and your attention.




Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] [nvda] New to list, newbie question, everything new starts here I guess

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

If I were you I'd not go to 8.1, its actually slower than 7 is.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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Please address personal E-mail to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ervin, Glenn" <glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] [nvda] New to list, newbie question, everything new starts here I guess


Personally, I am still using 7, and soon I will purchase a Windows 8 upgrade, and I will wait until the end of Windows 7’s life cycle.
Then I will do the same with 8.
I have tried 10, and don’t much like it.
But it is what it is.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rob DeZonia
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 1:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] [nvda] New to list, newbie question, everything new starts here I guess

Howdy list,

I am running Windows 7. Lately I'm starting to feel like the guy running XP when there's a better option available. I remember when Windows 10 first came out NVDA advised not upgrading yet. I realize that was many Windows 10 updates and a few NVDA releases ago. My question is, since you are all it seems experienced users, should I take the plunge finally? How steep is the learning curve on Windows 10, and is Edge workable with NVDA? Also I'm curious about apps since I've never tried Windows 8.1 either.
Thanks for your help and your attention.




Re: New to list, newbie question, everything new starts here I guess

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

My reply is probably not what others will say.
If its your only machine and its important to you that it is stable and does not need a whole new installation of windows every six months. Stay where you are. You have at least two more years.
Windows 10 is a good version of windows. It is just a shame that they don't leave people alone with it and make it optional to have all the updated new stuff every six months with the problems it generates for installed apps and screenreaders updates to catch up. As you will see later on Skype is being done away with as most of us have come to know it in favour of an all singing all dancing version that is more like a mobile app then a desktop one with nice little graphics of the people in the call and a cloud recording function.
All very nice if you are a corporate user, but I'd really like to see an old fashioned front end for the average home user.
They of course say that they have fixed the access issues with it, but there is a lot of difference in my experience between accessible and usable. Many cluttered web sites are accessible but their usability is absolutely awful, a problem many windows apps are heading toward with the loss of a menu and property sheet model.

Now it seems like you need to have an overview of a screen to be able to make intelligent choices or the memory of an elephant for all the shortcut keys.



As I say, moving the goalposts all the time eventually becomes self defeating in my view.
I'm sure corporate users are not updating their whole raft of machines this often, and that makes me wonder why we are?
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob DeZonia" <robd1953@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 7:43 PM
Subject: [nvda] New to list, newbie question, everything new starts here I guess


Howdy list,

I am running Windows 7. Lately I'm starting to feel like the guy running XP when there's a better option available. I remember when Windows 10 first came out NVDA advised not upgrading yet. I realize that was many Windows 10 updates and a few NVDA releases ago. My question is, since you are all it seems experienced users, should I take the plunge finally? How steep is the learning curve on Windows 10, and is Edge workable with NVDA? Also I'm curious about apps since I've never tried Windows 8.1 either.
Thanks for your help and your attention.