1. nvda@nvda.groups.io
   Date   
Re: Easy Table add-on

Joseph Lee
 

Hi,

You need to assign table navigator toggle command from input gestures dialog. I intentionally did not define a command for it in order to reduce conflicts with other add-ons.

Cheers,

Joseph (author of Easy Table Navigator)

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sociohack AC
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 9:05 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Easy Table add-on

 

Easy Table add-on has no commands specified on the official NVDA community add-on page. I installed the add-on nevertheless. Can you guys tell me how to activate it? I installed it from the add-on manager, but there has been no changes in my table navigation.
--
Regards,
Sociohack

Easy Table add-on

Akshaya Choudhary
 

Easy Table add-on has no commands specified on the official NVDA community add-on page. I installed the add-on nevertheless. Can you guys tell me how to activate it? I installed it from the add-on manager, but there has been no changes in my table navigation.
--
Regards,
Sociohack
Re: Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Gene
 

What if you have twenty or thirty web pages you use for listening to stations?  That is what I meant when I spoke of micromemorizing pages.  It appears to me that it takes the links list a little time to open.  Then you move by first letter navigation to what you want.  I am not convinced it's faster to any significant extent or easier than opening find, typing list or listen and finding the link that way without remembering that the wrsv site, for example,  uses the word click, and the Wbcw site does but most other sites use listen.  These are fictitious examples. 
 
Quite some time ago, Send Space changed it's download link to a button.  When it happened, it cause me no problem in the slightest.  I simply typed downl and found the button immediately. 
 
When I found that it is now a button, I started typing the letter b from the top of the page.  But when the change was made, I found the button as quickly as I had found the link previously.
 
Perhaps I wrote too long a message, others will have to decide.  I wanted to make clear what I meant, and I wanted to argue forcefully for it In hopes that maybe, if any possibly influential instructors read the message, they might start making the case to others who teach and maybe, stop the pernicious way this is taught.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Hi Gene,


You are largely correct on this analysis, but at times, I must confess, you have a way of stating what could be stated n a sentence or two in 10 thousand words.


What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use your quick navigation, links lists and so on.


I do this all the time and it is more or less common sense.  For example, once you scope out a page and you know that the listen live link on a web page is near the top and the word here as in 'click here' to listen' is the clickable word, then it is much easier to use the links list and when you press the letter h and hear the word here, to press enter on it to start listening.



On 7/27/2018 1:02 AM, Gene wrote:
This message is long but people may find it useful.  And it would be nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that teaching be changed as I describe. 
 
I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use on unfamiliar pages.  Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they shouldn't be used on familiar pages. 
 
In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page.  I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or framework.
 
It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your example.  Just think how much more natural and directly working with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top of the page, then search for the word cart.  Repeat the search if necessary until you get to the cart.  Then explain how to move through the cart.  I almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways.  And this is true on page after page.  What about a newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the home page.  Instead of using the links list, search for edito.  Repeat if necessary. 
 
What about a radio station site?  If you want to listen, search for listen.  If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click.  Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to listen live.  Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live."  You have to find the word click with first letter navigation.  It makes much more sense to search for words like listen and live or click using my method.  You will find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial structure imposes on looking for them. 
 
What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact information or use a contact form.  From the top of the page, search for the word "contact."  Again, what if the link says click here to contact us."  What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the link.  Best of luck finding it with the links list.  Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in the sentence.  This also leads to micromemorization of pages.  Page x has something you switch to the headings list to find.  Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list.  It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they appear.
 
As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of strangers when navigating web pages. 
 
I want to be very clear on the next point.  I am not aedvocating not using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages.  Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used.  Those uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want.  I'm advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such as navigation links.  And I'm advocating using search for finding something in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the first word in the link.  I am also arguing that in teaching, using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it.  The mor3e the student works with the web page, the better.
 
The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma.  I did a tutorial years ago on Internet use.  It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the links list on unfamiliar pages.  If you want to use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it. 
 
The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page navigation.  It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Rick,

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still insane.  Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other objects that they are not.   I cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link.  I've experienced the reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various elements. 

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields.  Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem.  I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
Re: Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Brian Vogel
 

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 09:20 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use your quick navigation, links lists and so on.
Indeed.

Every single one of the "lists" features also has its place, and that place is not only after one is familiar with the page.  Going through headings lists on things like newspaper websites gets one through what is generally the list of headlines and doing the same on search pages puts one through the click-through text for the search results returned.

Sometimes using the links list (which is my very least favorite thing to use) allows someone to get a quick overview of what's on the page just by arrowing through it.

All of these tools are appropriately used in combination.  I am also a huge fan of the screen reader search function and, for those willing to use it, mouse tracking.  You can get a decent idea of what's on a completely unfamiliar page by gliding the mouse around and listening to what is announced that's underneath it.  Very few screen reader users who are not also former users of the mouse are willing to do this, though.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 
NVDA Goes Silent In Dialogue on Websites

David Russell
 

Hello Members,

I believe I am using a 2016 version of NVDA with my windows seven
computer, and will upgrade when purchasing a new computer in 2020.
That being said, can someone explain the reason NVDA goes silent when
I press enter on a given website, and I enter a link called Dialogue.
Arrow keys (up down) or tab keys do not result in any screen info being read.
Just blank blank blank

One such example is the Tax Information link at Amazon, required by
authors to complete when establishing or updating an existing account.

I notice too, some websites are using the word 'button' instead of
'link' to identify key places. What is the difference?

Thank you for your help.

--
David Russell
david.sonofhashem@gmail.com
testing

Tyler Wood
 

Hi,

Sorry, usually I never send emails like this but my last two messages to this group gave me delivery errors.


The irony of this is I am still receiving messages so I am unsure what is happening.

Hopefully this sends.
Re: Audacity add on?

Tyler Wood
 

I didn't even know there was one. I don't think it's listed on the official add ons page.


Very frustrating when this happens I might add. Unless I completely missed it in which case I will feel pretty silly.

On 27-Jul-2018 10:03 AM, Roger Stewart wrote:
I just tried to see if there is a new version of the add on for Audacity and I can't find it anywhere on the official add on site.  Does anyone know what the latest version is, where I can get it, and if it's ready for the new Python?


Thanks.


Roger
Audacity add on?

Roger Stewart
 

I just tried to see if there is a new version of the add on for Audacity and I can't find it anywhere on the official add on site.  Does anyone know what the latest version is, where I can get it, and if it's ready for the new Python?


Thanks.


Roger
Re: Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Jonathan COHN
 

Gene,

Very good points. Often I find that Web developers also expect the blind to navigate just with the tab key and enter keys. This is true in LinkedIn and some travel booking sites.


Also of note, is that web accessibility documentation have had deep discussions about what a link is versus what a button is, and they don't really seem to take into consideration the visual appearance of the item in question. Except for next/previous buttons on training sites, a button is usually considered to be an item that acts on other items in the page for example  (remove, add, purchase) Sometimes Web developers will mark an item up as a link and then use a special attribute to tell the AT that it is a button. Think of those places where there was a click here button and you couldn't get it to work... this could be the reason.
One final point, not all screen readers use just first letter navigation within item lists.  A search type capability could certainly be added to the panel invoked by NVDA-F7. 

.   
Re: makeing reaper useable with nvda

Adel Spence
 

yes, first, I installed reaper, then osara. then sws and nothing!

----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] makeing reaper useable with nvda

hi Adel, I am probabl laate in this thread. You installed Reaper first. The with Reaper closed, installed OSARA then SWS extension?  Andrew

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Adel Spence
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 2:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] makeing reaper useable with nvda

 

hello

I'm adel

so, I installed all things for reaper, but it is still not useable with nvda. can someone please help me?
Re: makeing reaper useable with nvda

Adel Spence
 


yes, I did installed that.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] makeing reaper useable with nvda

Hi Adel,

Have you installed OSARA for Reaper?  It is here: https://github.com/jcsteh/osara

There is also a walkthrough of instructions here:

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 6:59 AM, Adel Spence <adelspence12@...> wrote:
hello
I'm adel
so, I installed all things for reaper, but it is still not useable with nvda. can someone please help me?




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 
Re: Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Gene,


You are largely correct on this analysis, but at times, I must confess, you have a way of stating what could be stated n a sentence or two in 10 thousand words.


What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use your quick navigation, links lists and so on.


I do this all the time and it is more or less common sense.  For example, once you scope out a page and you know that the listen live link on a web page is near the top and the word here as in 'click here' to listen' is the clickable word, then it is much easier to use the links list and when you press the letter h and hear the word here, to press enter on it to start listening.



On 7/27/2018 1:02 AM, Gene wrote:
This message is long but people may find it useful.  And it would be nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that teaching be changed as I describe. 
 
I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use on unfamiliar pages.  Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they shouldn't be used on familiar pages. 
 
In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page.  I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or framework.
 
It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your example.  Just think how much more natural and directly working with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top of the page, then search for the word cart.  Repeat the search if necessary until you get to the cart.  Then explain how to move through the cart.  I almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways.  And this is true on page after page.  What about a newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the home page.  Instead of using the links list, search for edito.  Repeat if necessary. 
 
What about a radio station site?  If you want to listen, search for listen.  If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click.  Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to listen live.  Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live."  You have to find the word click with first letter navigation.  It makes much more sense to search for words like listen and live or click using my method.  You will find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial structure imposes on looking for them. 
 
What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact information or use a contact form.  From the top of the page, search for the word "contact."  Again, what if the link says click here to contact us."  What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the link.  Best of luck finding it with the links list.  Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in the sentence.  This also leads to micromemorization of pages.  Page x has something you switch to the headings list to find.  Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list.  It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they appear.
 
As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of strangers when navigating web pages. 
 
I want to be very clear on the next point.  I am not aedvocating not using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages.  Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used.  Those uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want.  I'm advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such as navigation links.  And I'm advocating using search for finding something in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the first word in the link.  I am also arguing that in teaching, using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it.  The mor3e the student works with the web page, the better.
 
The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma.  I did a tutorial years ago on Internet use.  It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the links list on unfamiliar pages.  If you want to use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it. 
 
The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page navigation.  It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Rick,

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still insane.  Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other objects that they are not.   I cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link.  I've experienced the reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various elements. 

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields.  Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem.  I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
Re: Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Gene
 

I didn't say no searches can find words except at the beginnings of text.  I said that, using the links list or the other lists, which are artificial constructions, that if you use first letter navigation to move through these artificial lists, you won't find something unless the first word in the item begins with that letter.  See my examples again such as click here to listen live.  The links list won't find the link if you use first letter navigation and you type l.
 
I argue against using the links list for that reason on unfamiliar pages.  I argue that the screen-reader's find should be used.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 3:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

I guess its human nature for people to assume site builders will all follow
a normal way of doing stuff. and its also human nature that people look for
what they may think is the simplest way.
 I'm very surprised that no search  can detect words other than at the start
of text though. This is certainly not so in other documents. I use this all
the time when viewing local planning applications to search for key words
that mean  red alert for blind people, like applications for chairs and
other street clutter on narrow footways etc.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 6:02 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA


This message is long but people may find it useful.  And it would be nice if
those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that
teaching be changed as I describe.

I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely
artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use
on unfamiliar pages.  Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they
shouldn't be used on familiar pages.

In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page.
I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is
the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely
artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure
gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or
framework.

It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on
instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your
example.  Just think how much more natural and directly working with the
page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top
of the page, then search for the word cart.  Repeat the search if necessary
until you get to the cart.  Then explain how to move through the cart.  I
almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways.  And this is true
on page after page.  What about a newspaper site where you want to find the
editorial section on the home page.  Instead of using the links list, search
for edito.  Repeat if necessary.

What about a radio station site?  If you want to listen, search for listen.
If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click.  Using the
links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't
do any good if the link says click here to listen live.  Nor will using
first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live."  You have to
find the word click with first letter navigation.  It makes much more sense
to search for words like listen and live or click using my method.  You will
find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not
necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial
structure imposes on looking for them.

What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact
information or use a contact form.  From the top of the page, search for the
word "contact."  Again, what if the link says click here to contact us."
What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the
link.  Best of luck finding it with the links list.  Using search, you will
find the word contact and the link is in the sentence.  This also leads to
micromemorization of pages.  Page x has something you switch to the headings
list to find.  Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list.
It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting
increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how
they appear.

As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of
strangers when navigating web pages.

I want to be very clear on the next point.  I am not aedvocating not using
heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages.  Nor am I
saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used.  Those uses move you
past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want.  I'm
advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above
when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific
than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such
as navigation links.  And I'm advocating using search for finding something
in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link
says as the first word in the link.  I am also arguing that in teaching,
using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and
should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation
instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it.  The mor3e the student
works with the web page, the better.

The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web
page navigation has become unquestioned dogma.  I did a tutorial years ago
on Internet use.  It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the
links list on unfamiliar pages.  If you want to use it on familiar pages,
that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when
using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it.

The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page
navigation.  It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field
that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA


Rick,

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still insane.
Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making
objects look like other objects that they are not.   I cannot fathom why you
would make a button visually appear as a link.  I've experienced the
reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I hate
telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first
letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in
actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and
cycling through the various elements.

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by
the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields.
Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my
problem.  I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that
can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be
what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA"
in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for
all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel
Re: makeing reaper useable with nvda

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I have the reaper, quick guide and the access item now downloaded, but not actually tried them as yet. is there another bit to download and install, to get going on the trial version? As I say people are pointing me at it as a much better solution than goldwave is. I'm assuming to use a lot of it I'd need a more capable sound card than the basic Behringer I have now.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Adel Spence" <adelspence12@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 9:59 PM
Subject: [nvda] makeing reaper useable with nvda


hello
I'm adel
so, I installed all things for reaper, but it is still not useable with nvda. can someone please help me?
Re: Closing universal apps.

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

From memory they do not close, merely hide. Not sure what the point of this actually is, perhaps faster reloads?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message -----
From: "John Isige" <gwynn@tds.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 8:40 AM
Subject: [nvda] Closing universal apps.


I know somebody mentioned this problem the other week, or something similar, but I missed the answer and now I'm having it. I'm using the Skype UWP app. That part's fine. However, it will pop up notifications. I don't know if this is from when I typed text into the input field that comes up with a notification, or from action center, but when I close something, I hear "notification" or "new notification", I can't make it do it to find out which one. I'm guessing I tried to get rid of the notification with escape or alt-F4, or maybe it just does this after you hit ctrl-enter to send a Skype message.


Using object navigation, I can get to the title, "new notification window", but there's nothing inside of it that I can see, and no way to close it. How do I get rid of these if they happen, and more importantly, what do I do to keep them from happening in the first place?
Re: makeing reaper useable with nvda

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

That message is from Firefox, I turned it off in the settings. its very irritating!
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@nvaccess.org>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 1:39 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] makeing reaper useable with nvda


Hi Roger,

What didn't work about getting the addon?

I just downloaded it then and it downloaded and I could run the installer.
Windows 10 does pop up a warning that it is not commonly downloaded and to
be careful. The default is "don't run" but you need to go to the "More
info" button and "Run anyway". The warning is not that there is anything
suspicious about the file other than it hasn't been downloaded by lots of
users yet. It happened to the first people who downloaded NVDA 2018.2.1
when it came out as well.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 10:14 AM, Roger Stewart <paganus2@gmail.com> wrote:

Just tried to get this nvda add on. No go! I also tried to get it from
the official nvda add ons site and it isn't there. Is there a better way
to get it?

Thanks

Roger









On 7/26/2018 5:07 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Hi Adel,

Have you installed OSARA for Reaper? It is here: https://github.com/
jcsteh/osara

There is also a walkthrough of instructions here:
https://reaperaccessibility.com/index.php/Getting_Started

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 6:59 AM, Adel Spence <adelspence12@gmail.com>
wrote:

hello
I'm adel
so, I installed all things for reaper, but it is still not useable with
nvda. can someone please help me?


--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
Re: makeing reaper useable with nvda

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes this program if its mandatory for us, should be available easier. I'm being directed toward the sound program mentioned and that it works with Jaws, which is little help at all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stewart" <paganus2@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] makeing reaper useable with nvda


Just tried to get this nvda add on. No go! I also tried to get it from
the official nvda add ons site and it isn't there. Is there a better
way to get it?

Thanks

Roger









On 7/26/2018 5:07 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Hi Adel,

Have you installed OSARA for Reaper? It is here:
https://github.com/jcsteh/osara

There is also a walkthrough of instructions here:
https://reaperaccessibility.com/index.php/Getting_Started

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 6:59 AM, Adel Spence <adelspence12@gmail.com
<mailto:adelspence12@gmail.com>> wrote:

hello
I'm adel
so, I installed all things for reaper, but it is still not useable
with nvda. can someone please help me?




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
Re: Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I guess its human nature for people to assume site builders will all follow a normal way of doing stuff. and its also human nature that people look for what they may think is the simplest way.
I'm very surprised that no search can detect words other than at the start of text though. This is certainly not so in other documents. I use this all the time when viewing local planning applications to search for key words that mean red alert for blind people, like applications for chairs and other street clutter on narrow footways etc.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 6:02 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA


This message is long but people may find it useful. And it would be nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that teaching be changed as I describe.

I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use on unfamiliar pages. Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they shouldn't be used on familiar pages.

In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page. I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or framework.

It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your example. Just think how much more natural and directly working with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top of the page, then search for the word cart. Repeat the search if necessary until you get to the cart. Then explain how to move through the cart. I almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways. And this is true on page after page. What about a newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the home page. Instead of using the links list, search for edito. Repeat if necessary.

What about a radio station site? If you want to listen, search for listen. If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click. Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to listen live. Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live." You have to find the word click with first letter navigation. It makes much more sense to search for words like listen and live or click using my method. You will find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial structure imposes on looking for them.

What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact information or use a contact form. From the top of the page, search for the word "contact." Again, what if the link says click here to contact us." What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the link. Best of luck finding it with the links list. Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in the sentence. This also leads to micromemorization of pages. Page x has something you switch to the headings list to find. Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list. It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they appear.

As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of strangers when navigating web pages.

I want to be very clear on the next point. I am not aedvocating not using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages. Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used. Those uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want. I'm advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such as navigation links. And I'm advocating using search for finding something in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the first word in the link. I am also arguing that in teaching, using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it. The mor3e the student works with the web page, the better.

The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma. I did a tutorial years ago on Internet use. It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the links list on unfamiliar pages. If you want to use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it.

The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page navigation. It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA


Rick,

Thanks. I've figured some of this out but it is still insane. Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other objects that they are not. I cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link. I've experienced the reverse, too.

It does no one any good on either side of the equation. I hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link. I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various elements.

I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields. Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem. I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

~ Richard Dehmel
Navigating a web page quickly

Brian K. Lingard
 

Dear John & List:

I found a while ago, that when trying to navigate a web page I am unfamiliar with, if customer service says press the green button in the top left corner, I just say I am using speech output. Is it an actual button or a link?
Have also had some pages where they say it is a button, I look for a button and say, sorry page has no buttons my screenreader can find.

Will look usually for a link and find it quickly.

Seems some web authors love using non-standard controls, especially buttons that are not a button to your screen reader!

Have also found that, with some screenreaders, despite you setting them to use screen layout mode, at times they do not seem to do so.

Brian

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
John Isige
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 3:35 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [NVDA] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Agreed. I almost never use the lists; I cannot remember when the last time was
That I used one, though I probably did once. Let us see, headings, sometimes
Landmarks if I remember them, tab, and arrows, and page-up or down if I
know I am skipping some significant text, and find from top of page as
You have thoroughly described, naturally. That is pretty much how I navigate
Pages. Usually stuff like 'n' does not work for me on pages, same with visited
And unvisited links. That is under multiple screen readers, mind you. So to my
mind, you should at least know the commands if for no other reason than
You will know what to do when the ones you find to be easier do not work.


I would not go so far as to say use screen layout under NVDA, but just for fun
I am trying it. What used to happen to me is that if you let it read the page
Automatically, it would read a line of links, but if you used the arrows, it
would only read the first link, and that just messed with my head. But at least
In my quick Facebook test in latest Firefox, it actually read the whole set of
Links with the arrows, so now I am giving it a shot to see what it is like.


On 7/27/2018 0:02, Gene wrote:
This message is long but people may find it useful. In addition, it would be
nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would
advocate that teaching be changed as I describe.
I have maintained for almost as long as I have known about these
completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are
not good to use on unfamiliar pages. Now, you are giving excellent
arguments why they should not be used on familiar pages.
In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the
page. I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode
buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it
is not a completely artificially construct that goes outside of any
unified page-as-structure gestalt, to use a fancy word meaning
picture or mental construction or framework.
It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on
instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in
your example. Just think how much more natural and directly working
with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you
are at the top of the page, and then search for the word cart. Repeat the
search if necessary until you get to the cart. Then explain how to
move through the cart. I almost never use amazon so I do not recall
the best ways. In addition, this is true on page after page. What about a
newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the
home page. Instead of using the links list, search for edito. Repeat
if necessary.
What about a radio station site? If you want to listen, search for
listen. If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word
click. Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find
the word listen will not do any good if the link says click here to
listen live. Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking
for the word "live." You have to find the word click with first
letter navigation. It makes much more sense to search for words like
listen and live or click using my method. You will find the link
every time because all three words are in the link, just not
necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely
artificial structure imposes on looking for them.
What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get
contact information or use a contact form. From the top of the page,
search for the word "contact." Again, what if the link says click
here to contact us." What if it says, to contact us, use this form,
where "this form" is the link. Best of luck finding it with the links
list. Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in
the sentence. This also leads to micro memorization of pages. Page x
has something you switch to the headings list to find. Site Y has
something you look for using the buttons list. It is not a natural way
to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing
dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they
appear.
As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the
kindness of strangers when navigating web pages.
I want to be very clear on the next point. I am not advocating not
using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages.
Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links should not be used. Those
uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where
you want. I am advocating against using the links list in examples
such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find
something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a
usually present structure such as navigation links. In addition, I am
advocating using search for finding something in the links list on
unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the
first word in the link. I am also arguing that in teaching, using the
links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should
never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation
instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it. The more the
student works with the web page, the better.
The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching
web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma. I did a tutorial
years ago on Internet use. It is the only one I know that tells
users, do not use the links list on unfamiliar pages. If you want to
use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them
not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already
are familiar with it.
The other tutorials I have seen teach it near the beginning of teaching
page navigation. It is far past time someone with enough influence in
the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this
case.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [NVDA] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Rick,

Thanks. I have figured some of this out but it is still
insane. Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend
toward making objects look like other objects that they are not. I
cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link.
I have experienced the reverse, too.

It does no one any good on either side of the equation. I
hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then
use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is
not, in actuality, a link. I came to the conclusion using the
elements lists and cycling through the various elements.

I still find it strange that the Delete (which is
accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the
list of form fields. Of course, when I see form field I think edit
box and perhaps that is my problem. I do not think of "form field" as
the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page,"
and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

It does not help when I am trying to "think JAWS" and "think
NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

/A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love
for all humankind./

~ Richard Dehmel


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Closing universal apps.

John Isige
 

I know somebody mentioned this problem the other week, or something similar, but I missed the answer and now I'm having it. I'm using the Skype UWP app. That part's fine. However, it will pop up notifications. I don't know if this is from when I typed text into the input field that comes up with a notification, or from action center, but when I close something, I hear "notification" or "new notification", I can't make it do it to find out which one. I'm guessing I tried to get rid of the notification with escape or alt-F4, or maybe it just does this after you hit ctrl-enter to send a Skype message.


Using object navigation, I can get to the title, "new notification window", but there's nothing inside of it that I can see, and no way to close it. How do I get rid of these if they happen, and more importantly, what do I do to keep them from happening in the first place?
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