Date   

Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Richard,

Believe me, I am still working on that one. If only one of my machines did it, it would be easier, but all three of mine fail miserably with NVDA and Explorer.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Wells
Sent: 22 May 2018 18:52
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I suppose the next question is, why are some having problems with NVDA and UIA and others are not? If we could find that common thread, we would know if it is a Windows issue or an NVDA problem.


On 5/22/2018 11:37 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Hi Jackie,

No malware here, according to various things. I have Malwarebytes, but I don't run it automatically, I only scan when I need to.

No bloat on these custom machines, I know what I'm doing.

So I suspect it's a Microsoft/UIA/NVDA miscommunication thing, especially as I said, JAWS works fine, but JAWS doesn't rely on UIA alone.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jackie
Sent: 22 May 2018 16:59
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Yeah, & this was something I was gonna ask Steve to do, ie, download frst64.exe & run it so I could see what apps were running. I wanted to see if a reinstall might help first, though, because Steve doesn't know me all that well, & the program might provide me w/insights he'd rather I not have. But it would be interesting to see if perhaps there were bloat/mal/pup-ware on the machines that was taking up resources.

On 5/22/18, Joseph Lee <@joslee> wrote:
Hi all,

To Steve: thanks for testing this.

To everyone else: Steve’s reply confirms suspicions raised by some folks:
UIA miscommunication. UIA slowing down can be caused by anything, the
most notable ones being a flood of events and a long-running task
that blocks UIA from helping NVDA. I’m thinking that somehow, there
are apps that uses a lot of resources or fires many UIA events to a
point UIA stalls. One possible way to resolve this is closing apps
via Task Manager (although that might not respond well if tasks use a lot of resources).

Regarding this problem, if I remember conversations between
developers correctly (on Gitter), Microsoft and NV Access had many
conversations regarding this matter. Although Microsoft did fix UIA
issues in recent Windows 10 releases, both entities acknowledge that
there are problems to be resolved.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Hi David and Joseph,



Yes, If I type it correctly, as David states, then my Explorer.exe
functionality comes back.



So it has to be a UIA thing.



All the best



Steve



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of
David Reynolds
Sent: 21 May 2018 21:30
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Joseph,

You made a typo, it should say:

UIAHandler.terminate()



Cheers,



David.



On 21-May-18 9:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

For those experiencing this problem, can you try the following for me
please:

1. Press Control+NVDA+Z to open Python Console
2. Type the following as exactly as shown:



import UIAHandler

UIAHandler.temrinate()



Then press Escape, and try navigating around File Explorer. Note that
this will turn off UIA support completely, so it’ll mean Start menu
and other UIA controls won’t work.

If you find that this helps NVDA respond better, then we can rule out
screen resolution and other things that has nothing to do with UI
Automation and other causes. If this procedure does not help, then we
need to look into possibly universal apps taking up resources,
unresponsive drivers, UIA getting stuck somewhere and what not.

After you experiment with this, either restart NvDA or restore UIA
support via Python Console. To do this via python Console:

1. Press Control+NvDA+Z to open Python Console.
2. Type the following as exactly as shown:



import UIAHandler

UIAHandler.initialize()



Cheers,

Joseph





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Annette Moore
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 12:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Unlike Steve, I can get my lists to read after sitting here for a
minute or two or just having one window in focus and not alt tabbing
to another one for a few minutes. It's almost like something has to
catch up with what I'm doing, but it will--eventually--do what it's
supposed to. I never came to the list with this, though, because I
just figured it was something with NVDA that would likely be
corrected in another update because it just recently started doing
this and it's not so disruptive that it's rendering my use of the
computer or File Explorer completely impossible. Restarting NVDA also
corrects it, and usually for the rest of the day, it's fine. It
sounds like Steve's having a much worse time with it than I am. Also, closing and reopening the window you're trying to read lists from helps.
I've done that as well. Maximizing the window will read you the list
item in focus, but if it isn't ready to settle down and behave yet,
you have to keep maximizing the window as you arrow down so it'll
read you the list item. It does move as you arrow down, though; it
will move to the next item; it just won't read you what it is until
you maximize the screen. It's really bad with Dropbox. It's worse
with Dropbox than it is with File Explorer. When I copy and paste
something or move something out of a Dropbox folder, I'd better get
up and take a short, two or three-minute break because it's going to
take that long to behave again, and then, once I cloes the Dropbox
window, all is well. I do find, though, that the more windows I have
open, the worse it is, so now I just try to work with two or three
open at a time, and if I can, I close one if I want to open another
one. that's probably just good, practical use of the computer anyway;
you don't want to have too many windows open or it'll start acting funky anyway.
If it gets worse, I'll just reinstall NVDA

Annette



On 5/21/2018 1:15 PM, Gene wrote:

I agree. While certain settings may affect this problem, I doubt
that most of them do, and not all are appropriate for all computers,
such as the resolution. But the reason I'm doubtful that any
settings changes will help is because this is a new problem after the
latest Windows update. It sounds to me like a UIA automation problem, which isn't user correctable.



Gene

----- Original message -----

From: Jackie <mailto:abletec@...>

Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:10 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



W/all due respect, I will disagree w/some of these last comments.
I've disabled graphics hotkeys, as inadvertently pressing these can
cause display rotation. I'm not sure if that will cause problems
w/NVDA if the display is unintentionally rotated, but I can tell you
for certain sighted folks hate standing on their head to look at the
screen. The resolution should be that supported by the monitor. Mine,
for example, is 1920x1080.

Steve, just out of curiosity, have you tried uninstalling & then
reinstalling NVDA w/the latest update? I'm just wondering if
something may have gotten corrupted here.

On 5/21/18, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...
<mailto:aa2vm@...>
wrote:
Hi Steve,


I am wondering about what settings you have for the File Explorer.
I have noticed that with some settings in Windows/file explorer
since Windows 7, that it doesn't interface well with screen readers.
In particular, if you have under the view menu extra large icons or
grid or something other than list or details checked, you will have problems.
First check the view menu to see that either list or details is checked.


Also make sure that everything under the group by sub menu is
unchecked. If anything is checked under that menu, it can result in
sluggishness and odd behavior.


Also under the graphics options sub menu there are sub menus. Under
the panel options only the display scaling is checked. Under the
resolution sub menu 1024 X 768 is checked. Under the rotaton sub
menu, rotate to 0 degrees is checked.

Under the hotkeys and tray icons sub menu, they are both enabled.


Check out these settings and make them conform to the suggestions
above and see if that helps with your file explorer issues.



On 5/21/2018 11:10 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Yep, this pretty much mirrors my experience, although I can never
get NVDA to read the list now.

NVDA is pretty horrible with File Explorer under Windows 10, and
it’s got worse with this build.

All the best

Steve

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > *On Behalf Of *Annette Moore
*Sent:* 20 May 2018 20:15
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I just close file explorer and reopen it when it starts acting funky.
either that, or I shut down NVDA and restart it. Alternatively, I
can sit here and stare at the computer for a few minutes, until it
decides to behave itself, which it does eventually do. It has to be
an NVDA thing, though, because it doesn't do this with System
Access at all. I have trouble alt tabbing between windows when it
wants to act up, and then I have trouble going through list items.
It's like the cursor doesn't want to move through them but it
actually does; it's just NVDA isn't reading me the items. I also
find that if I have more than, say, two or three windows open and I
close one of them, it starts working fine again. It's random,
though, so I never know when it's going to misbehave. It's not
aggravating enough to make me switch screen readers, though. I just
figure it'll be fixed in a future update and go with it.

Annette

On 5/20/2018 11:36 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

So I wonder what is the determining factor then?

All the best


Steve

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
*Greg Wocher
*Sent:* 20 May 2018 17:14
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10
1803

Hello,

I am running the latest version of NVDA on my HP laptop and I do
not have any issues using NVDA with file explorer. I am also using
the 1803 Windows update.

Greg Wocher

On May 20, 2018, at 7:00 AM, Steve Nutt
<steve@... <mailto:steve@...>
<mailto:steve@...>> wrote:

I’m assuming you haven’t tried it in the File Explorer app
then? That’s the bug I was reporting.

All the best


Steve

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io%3E%3Cnvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io%3E%3E*On>
*On Behalf Of*Sarah k Alawami
*Sent:*18 May 2018 21:28
*To:*nvda list list <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
*Subject:*Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows
10
1803

I can't remember if I replied or not but lists are fine in the
explorer.exe app. I'm so far knock on wood not having any
issues as far as I can see, except for obs but that's probably
a broken app.



On May 16, 2018, at 1:03 AM, Steve Nutt
<steve@... <mailto:steve@...>
<mailto:steve@...>> wrote:

Hi,

I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not
reading for me.

It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don’t seem
to be reading. For example, File Explorer in Windows 10
is completely silent for me now.

JAWS is reading lists quite happily.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email:steve@...
<mailto:Email:steve@...> <mailto:steve@...>

Web:http://www.comproom.co.uk
<http://www.comproom.co.uk/>

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe Jackie McBride Helping
Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time https://brighter-vision.com










--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe Jackie McBride Helping
Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time https://brighter-vision.com








Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Annette,

 

No, unfortunately, it doesn’t.

 

So if NVDA were my only screen reader at this point, I’d be royally stuffed, unless I reset my PC.  But JAWS is working fine, so I don’t really mind.  I am just reporting the bug with the hope that it benefits the community at large.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Annette Moore
Sent: 22 May 2018 17:57
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Hi, Steve. Man, that is a bummer! Mine will after a couple of minutes. I tried what Joseph suggested yesterday and it did seem to work better, but it still wasn't perfect. If I close a window or two, it works just fine, so I've just decided that I'll do my best to only keep a couple of windows open when I need to read list items in Explorer. does restarting NVDA work at all for you, Steve? It does for me; in fact, it fixes the problem for a while.

Annette

 

On 5/22/2018 5:35 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi Annette,

 

No, I can sit here for five minuts, and the list will never read.  It will read the first item it lands on when you open File Explorer, but that’s all she wrote.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Annette Moore
Sent: 21 May 2018 20:54
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Unlike Steve, I can get my lists to read after sitting here for a minute or two or just having one window in focus and not alt tabbing to another one for a few minutes. It's almost like something has to catch up with what I'm doing, but it will--eventually--do what it's supposed to. I never came to the list with this, though, because I just figured it was something with NVDA that would likely be corrected in another update because it just recently started doing this and it's not so disruptive that it's rendering my use of the computer or File Explorer completely impossible. Restarting NVDA also corrects it, and usually for the rest of the day, it's fine. It sounds like Steve's having a much worse time with it than I am. Also, closing and reopening the window you're trying to read lists from helps. I've done that as well. Maximizing the window will read you the list item in focus, but if it isn't ready to settle down and behave yet, you have to keep maximizing the window as you arrow down so it'll read you the list item. It does move as you arrow down, though; it will move to the next item; it just won't read you what it is until you maximize the screen. It's really bad with Dropbox. It's worse with Dropbox than it is with File Explorer. When I copy and paste something or move something out of a Dropbox folder, I'd better get up and take a short, two or three-minute break because it's going to take that long to behave again, and then, once I cloes the Dropbox window, all is well. I do find, though, that the more windows I have open, the worse it is, so now I just try to work with two or three open at a time, and if I can, I close one if I want to open another one. that's probably just good, practical use of the computer anyway; you don't want to have too many windows open or it'll start acting funky anyway. If it gets worse, I'll just reinstall NVDA

Annette

 

On 5/21/2018 1:15 PM, Gene wrote:

I agree.  While certain settings may affect this problem, I doubt that most of them do, and not all are appropriate for all computers, such as the resolution.  But the reason I'm doubtful that any settings changes will help is because this is a new problem after the latest Windows update.  It sounds to me like a UIA automation problem, which isn't user correctable. 

 

Gene

----- Original message -----

From: Jackie

Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:10 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

W/all due respect, I will disagree w/some of these last comments. I've
disabled graphics hotkeys, as inadvertently pressing these can cause
display rotation. I'm not sure if that will cause problems w/NVDA if
the display is unintentionally rotated, but I can tell you for certain
sighted folks hate standing on their head to look at the screen. The
resolution should be that supported by the monitor. Mine, for example,
is 1920x1080.

Steve, just out of curiosity, have you tried uninstalling & then
reinstalling NVDA w/the latest update? I'm just wondering if something
may have gotten corrupted here.

On 5/21/18, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>
>
> I am wondering about what settings you have for the File Explorer.  I
> have noticed that with some settings in Windows/file explorer since
> Windows 7, that it doesn't interface well with screen readers.  In
> particular, if you have under the view menu extra large icons or grid or
> something other than list or details checked, you will have problems.
> First check the view menu to see that either list or details is checked.
>
>
> Also make sure that everything under the group by sub menu is
> unchecked.  If anything is checked under that menu, it can result in
> sluggishness and odd behavior.
>
>
> Also under the graphics options sub menu there are sub menus. Under the
> panel options only the display scaling is checked. Under the resolution
> sub menu 1024 X 768 is checked. Under the rotaton sub menu, rotate to 0
> degrees is checked.
>
> Under the hotkeys and tray icons sub menu, they are both enabled.
>
>
> Check out these settings and make them conform to the suggestions above
> and see if that helps with your file explorer issues.
>
>
>
> On 5/21/2018 11:10 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>
>> Yep, this pretty much mirrors my experience, although I can never get
>> NVDA to read the list now.
>>
>> NVDA is pretty horrible with File Explorer under Windows 10, and it’s
>> got worse with this build.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
>> *Annette Moore
>> *Sent:* 20 May 2018 20:15
>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>> I just close file explorer and reopen it when it starts acting funky.
>> either that, or I shut down NVDA and restart it. Alternatively, I can
>> sit here and stare at the computer for a few minutes, until it decides
>> to behave itself, which it does eventually do. It has to be an NVDA
>> thing, though, because it doesn't do this with System Access at all. I
>> have trouble alt tabbing between windows when it wants to act up, and
>> then I have trouble going through list items. It's like the cursor
>> doesn't want to move through them but it actually does; it's just NVDA
>> isn't reading me the items. I also find that if I have more than, say,
>> two or three windows open and I close one of them, it starts working
>> fine again. It's random, though, so I never know when it's going to
>> misbehave. It's not aggravating enough to make me switch screen
>> readers, though. I just figure it'll be fixed in a future update and
>> go with it.
>>
>> Annette
>>
>> On 5/20/2018 11:36 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>
>>     So I wonder what is the determining factor then?
>>
>>     All the best
>>
>>
>>     Steve
>>
>>     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>     <nvda@nvda.groups.io> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
>>     *Greg Wocher
>>     *Sent:* 20 May 2018 17:14
>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>>     Hello,
>>
>>     I am running the latest version of NVDA on my HP laptop and I do
>>     not have any issues using NVDA with file explorer. I am also using
>>     the 1803 Windows update.
>>
>>     Greg Wocher
>>
>>         On May 20, 2018, at 7:00 AM, Steve Nutt <steve@...
>>         <mailto:steve@...>> wrote:
>>
>>         I’m assuming you haven’t tried it in the File Explorer app
>>         then?  That’s the bug I was reporting.
>>
>>         All the best
>>
>>
>>         Steve
>>
>>         *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io><nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>*On Behalf Of*Sarah k Alawami
>>         *Sent:*18 May 2018 21:28
>>         *To:*nvda list list <nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
>>         *Subject:*Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10
>> 1803
>>
>>         I can't remember if I replied or not but lists are fine in the
>>         explorer.exe app. I'm so far knock on wood not having any
>>         issues as far as I can see, except for obs but that's probably
>>         a broken app.
>>
>>
>>
>>             On May 16, 2018, at 1:03 AM, Steve Nutt
>>             <steve@... <mailto:steve@...>> wrote:
>>
>>             Hi,
>>
>>             I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not
>>             reading for me.
>>
>>             It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don’t seem
>>             to be reading.  For example, File Explorer in Windows 10
>>             is completely silent for me now.
>>
>>             JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>
>>             Any thoughts?
>>
>>             Thanks.
>>
>>             All the best
>>
>>             Steve
>>
>>             --
>>
>>             Computer Room Services
>>
>>             77 Exeter Close
>>
>>             Stevenage
>>
>>             Hertfordshire
>>
>>             SG1 4PW
>>
>>             Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>
>>             Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>
>>             Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>
>>             Email:steve@... <mailto:steve@...>
>>
>>             Web:http://www.comproom.co.uk <http://www.comproom.co.uk/>
>>
>>
>
> --
> They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
> They ask: "How Happy are You?"
> I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
>
>


--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com

 

 


Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Angela,

I have written many times before how NVDA doesn't cut it for the workplace,
so I'm not going to bring that up again now. But even basic things like
speaking single digits can't easily be done without messing with
dictionaries.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: 22 May 2018 17:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

OK, if you would make  few examples of what you cannot do with nvda it would
be appreciated.

Thank you.
Ciao.

Il 22/05/2018 18:31, Steve Nutt ha scritto:
Wow, I wish I could agree with you. Still not enough configuration for
me.

NVDA's not bad, but not so usable as JAWS with applications that have
custom interfaces.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Angela
Delicata
Sent: 22 May 2018 16:16
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Thank you for your reply: I think nvda is getting more and more closer
to Jaws and I would dare to say  it is very very good now... I am
using it full time and don't feel the need for Jws at all...

I don't no with specific software, but i know friends of mine who use
it at workplace also, nvda I mean.



Il 22/05/2018 17:07, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
Hi Angela,
I think Linux and Apple both suffer the loss to Microsoft.
Just like with the old video tapes, one has to win out, and it may
not be
the best one.
I think that Linux is superior to Windows in many ways, although like
NVDA, Orca is not as robust as JFW.
But most of the software we use in Linux is free.
I think that many of us who are getting Mom & Dad or Grandma and
Grandpa
their first computer would do well to get them a computer with Ubuntu,
especially if they are not visually impaired.
They can more safely browse the web and still do their eMail and play
those card games.
Or I think that if they had an XP machine or will soon need to
replace
their Windows 7 machine, you can install Ubuntu on that old computer
alongside of their old windows and they will be happy and more secure.
Glenn


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Angela
Delicata
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:59 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glen,

I am very interested: please, speak about linux and how accessible it
is... I have never used it and don't know many blind folks who use
this system... If you say it is so good, I wonder why so  few people
use it I mean I know quite a lot of blind folks and they have  Apple
and Windows, but Linumx is not so much used. Why is is so?

Tell me, i am curious because I would like to learn to use it in the
future.
Thank you so much.

Best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/05/2018 16:21, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and
find
that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA.
It
comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is
all free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much
it
is like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the
copy &
paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S
after it
starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you
can
use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and
you
only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away
with the
conventional Windows Desktop interface?


The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the
web,
but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word
Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more
minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to
Tasks bar.
Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in
Windows.


So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to
unload/dismiss
open programs/sites/projects.


Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the
conventional
Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a
spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.
On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development.
Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature
availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:
A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related
activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage
experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does
support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major
way: you'll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.
When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new
screen
controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be
shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The
actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container
window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with
Windows My People (Version 1709).
While an app is running inside a Sets window, press
Control+Windows+T to
open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists
of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box
that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After
searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app
or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a
new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.
To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or
Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided
Control+Windows+Shift+that
you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To
close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one
go, press
Alt+F4.
You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web
browser
that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs
are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you
would add the Windows key to the mix.
But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will
list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge
tabs
and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps
running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching
between apps.
You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app
windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be
visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in
another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook,
Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge
tab.
There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders
and
drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an
app
tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a
collection of Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a
workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results
from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python
Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own
Python Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.
Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger
Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets"
and how
do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it
help with screen reader accessibility?
Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed
enough to
matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until
they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by
sighted users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted
people wouldn't have any of those problems. Also, as in the new
feature of sets, they may not be on by default. As I recall what I read,
sets is off by default.
But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough
blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10.
Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems
that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has
nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time
after time.
I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine
that is
working very well with an earlier version of Windows.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft
keep on fiddling with things that used to work and making them not
work. I have actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless
Microsoft can
simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7.
They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of
windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7
into the keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more
careful. Fine have
new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it
windows
10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their
messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype
have been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting
'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt"
<steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically
if
Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting
for addons for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't
seem to make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win
10 essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to
try to isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting
'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt"
<steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty
much unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was
mentioning - it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my
one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly
lower hardware specification desktop machine, that does however
have a solid state operating system drive in it, it actually seems
to react a bit more consistently, in terms of reading out list
items, like in file explorer, to me, and, this is with both of
them running windows 10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for
me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be
reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for
me
now.


JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@...>
steve@...<mailto:steve@...>
Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk





























Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Richard Wells
 

I suppose the next question is, why are some having problems with NVDA and UIA and others are not? If we could find that common thread, we would know if it is a Windows issue or an NVDA problem.

On 5/22/2018 11:37 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Hi Jackie,

No malware here, according to various things. I have Malwarebytes, but I don't run it automatically, I only scan when I need to.

No bloat on these custom machines, I know what I'm doing.

So I suspect it's a Microsoft/UIA/NVDA miscommunication thing, especially as I said, JAWS works fine, but JAWS doesn't rely on UIA alone.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jackie
Sent: 22 May 2018 16:59
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Yeah, & this was something I was gonna ask Steve to do, ie, download frst64.exe & run it so I could see what apps were running. I wanted to see if a reinstall might help first, though, because Steve doesn't know me all that well, & the program might provide me w/insights he'd rather I not have. But it would be interesting to see if perhaps there were bloat/mal/pup-ware on the machines that was taking up resources.

On 5/22/18, Joseph Lee <@joslee> wrote:
Hi all,

To Steve: thanks for testing this.

To everyone else: Steve’s reply confirms suspicions raised by some folks:
UIA miscommunication. UIA slowing down can be caused by anything, the
most notable ones being a flood of events and a long-running task that
blocks UIA from helping NVDA. I’m thinking that somehow, there are
apps that uses a lot of resources or fires many UIA events to a point
UIA stalls. One possible way to resolve this is closing apps via Task
Manager (although that might not respond well if tasks use a lot of resources).

Regarding this problem, if I remember conversations between developers
correctly (on Gitter), Microsoft and NV Access had many conversations
regarding this matter. Although Microsoft did fix UIA issues in recent
Windows 10 releases, both entities acknowledge that there are problems
to be resolved.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Hi David and Joseph,



Yes, If I type it correctly, as David states, then my Explorer.exe
functionality comes back.



So it has to be a UIA thing.



All the best



Steve



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of David
Reynolds
Sent: 21 May 2018 21:30
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Joseph,

You made a typo, it should say:

UIAHandler.terminate()



Cheers,



David.



On 21-May-18 9:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

For those experiencing this problem, can you try the following for me
please:

1. Press Control+NVDA+Z to open Python Console
2. Type the following as exactly as shown:



import UIAHandler

UIAHandler.temrinate()



Then press Escape, and try navigating around File Explorer. Note that
this will turn off UIA support completely, so it’ll mean Start menu
and other UIA controls won’t work.

If you find that this helps NVDA respond better, then we can rule out
screen resolution and other things that has nothing to do with UI
Automation and other causes. If this procedure does not help, then we
need to look into possibly universal apps taking up resources,
unresponsive drivers, UIA getting stuck somewhere and what not.

After you experiment with this, either restart NvDA or restore UIA
support via Python Console. To do this via python Console:

1. Press Control+NvDA+Z to open Python Console.
2. Type the following as exactly as shown:



import UIAHandler

UIAHandler.initialize()



Cheers,

Joseph





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Annette Moore
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 12:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Unlike Steve, I can get my lists to read after sitting here for a
minute or two or just having one window in focus and not alt tabbing
to another one for a few minutes. It's almost like something has to
catch up with what I'm doing, but it will--eventually--do what it's
supposed to. I never came to the list with this, though, because I
just figured it was something with NVDA that would likely be corrected
in another update because it just recently started doing this and it's
not so disruptive that it's rendering my use of the computer or File
Explorer completely impossible. Restarting NVDA also corrects it, and
usually for the rest of the day, it's fine. It sounds like Steve's
having a much worse time with it than I am. Also, closing and reopening the window you're trying to read lists from helps.
I've done that as well. Maximizing the window will read you the list
item in focus, but if it isn't ready to settle down and behave yet,
you have to keep maximizing the window as you arrow down so it'll read
you the list item. It does move as you arrow down, though; it will
move to the next item; it just won't read you what it is until you
maximize the screen. It's really bad with Dropbox. It's worse with
Dropbox than it is with File Explorer. When I copy and paste something
or move something out of a Dropbox folder, I'd better get up and take
a short, two or three-minute break because it's going to take that
long to behave again, and then, once I cloes the Dropbox window, all
is well. I do find, though, that the more windows I have open, the
worse it is, so now I just try to work with two or three open at a
time, and if I can, I close one if I want to open another one. that's
probably just good, practical use of the computer anyway; you don't
want to have too many windows open or it'll start acting funky anyway.
If it gets worse, I'll just reinstall NVDA

Annette



On 5/21/2018 1:15 PM, Gene wrote:

I agree. While certain settings may affect this problem, I doubt that
most of them do, and not all are appropriate for all computers, such
as the resolution. But the reason I'm doubtful that any settings
changes will help is because this is a new problem after the latest
Windows update. It sounds to me like a UIA automation problem, which isn't user correctable.



Gene

----- Original message -----

From: Jackie <mailto:abletec@...>

Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:10 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



W/all due respect, I will disagree w/some of these last comments. I've
disabled graphics hotkeys, as inadvertently pressing these can cause
display rotation. I'm not sure if that will cause problems w/NVDA if
the display is unintentionally rotated, but I can tell you for certain
sighted folks hate standing on their head to look at the screen. The
resolution should be that supported by the monitor. Mine, for example,
is 1920x1080.

Steve, just out of curiosity, have you tried uninstalling & then
reinstalling NVDA w/the latest update? I'm just wondering if something
may have gotten corrupted here.

On 5/21/18, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...
<mailto:aa2vm@...>
wrote:
Hi Steve,


I am wondering about what settings you have for the File Explorer. I
have noticed that with some settings in Windows/file explorer since
Windows 7, that it doesn't interface well with screen readers. In
particular, if you have under the view menu extra large icons or grid
or something other than list or details checked, you will have problems.
First check the view menu to see that either list or details is checked.


Also make sure that everything under the group by sub menu is
unchecked. If anything is checked under that menu, it can result in
sluggishness and odd behavior.


Also under the graphics options sub menu there are sub menus. Under
the panel options only the display scaling is checked. Under the
resolution sub menu 1024 X 768 is checked. Under the rotaton sub
menu, rotate to 0 degrees is checked.

Under the hotkeys and tray icons sub menu, they are both enabled.


Check out these settings and make them conform to the suggestions
above and see if that helps with your file explorer issues.



On 5/21/2018 11:10 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Yep, this pretty much mirrors my experience, although I can never
get NVDA to read the list now.

NVDA is pretty horrible with File Explorer under Windows 10, and
it’s got worse with this build.

All the best

Steve

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > *On Behalf Of *Annette Moore
*Sent:* 20 May 2018 20:15
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I just close file explorer and reopen it when it starts acting funky.
either that, or I shut down NVDA and restart it. Alternatively, I
can sit here and stare at the computer for a few minutes, until it
decides to behave itself, which it does eventually do. It has to be
an NVDA thing, though, because it doesn't do this with System Access
at all. I have trouble alt tabbing between windows when it wants to
act up, and then I have trouble going through list items. It's like
the cursor doesn't want to move through them but it actually does;
it's just NVDA isn't reading me the items. I also find that if I
have more than, say, two or three windows open and I close one of
them, it starts working fine again. It's random, though, so I never
know when it's going to misbehave. It's not aggravating enough to
make me switch screen readers, though. I just figure it'll be fixed
in a future update and go with it.

Annette

On 5/20/2018 11:36 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

So I wonder what is the determining factor then?

All the best


Steve

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
*Greg Wocher
*Sent:* 20 May 2018 17:14
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10
1803

Hello,

I am running the latest version of NVDA on my HP laptop and I do
not have any issues using NVDA with file explorer. I am also using
the 1803 Windows update.

Greg Wocher

On May 20, 2018, at 7:00 AM, Steve Nutt
<steve@... <mailto:steve@...>
<mailto:steve@...>> wrote:

I’m assuming you haven’t tried it in the File Explorer app
then? That’s the bug I was reporting.

All the best


Steve

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io%3E%3Cnvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io%3E%3E*On>
*On Behalf Of*Sarah k Alawami
*Sent:*18 May 2018 21:28
*To:*nvda list list <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
*Subject:*Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows
10
1803

I can't remember if I replied or not but lists are fine in the
explorer.exe app. I'm so far knock on wood not having any
issues as far as I can see, except for obs but that's probably
a broken app.



On May 16, 2018, at 1:03 AM, Steve Nutt
<steve@... <mailto:steve@...>
<mailto:steve@...>> wrote:

Hi,

I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not
reading for me.

It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don’t seem
to be reading. For example, File Explorer in Windows 10
is completely silent for me now.

JAWS is reading lists quite happily.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email:steve@...
<mailto:Email:steve@...> <mailto:steve@...>

Web:http://www.comproom.co.uk
<http://www.comproom.co.uk/>

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe Jackie McBride Helping
Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time https://brighter-vision.com










--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe Jackie McBride Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time https://brighter-vision.com







Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Steve Nutt
 

Hello Jean,

 

I can confirm that reinstalling doesn’t solve the problem either.

 

Besides, I get the same problem with Narrator, so it is a general UIA problem I believe.  But as long as I have one screen reader that works well in File Explorer, then I’m happy. <Smile>.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 22 May 2018 17:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

This problem started with the newest major update to Windows.  I have no idea whether reinstalling would help but who knows?  I am skeptical that other user attempts, such as stopping apps will help.  Not only did this problem start with the newest full version of Windows, but it isn't even a question of slow response.  It reads the first item in a list and doesn't read any other items.  This is not what I would expect even if a lot of apps were running. Slow, yes.  A complete failure to read any more than the first item in the list, no. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Jackie

Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 10:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Yeah, & this was something I was gonna ask Steve to do, ie, download
frst64.exe & run it so I could see what apps were running. I wanted to
see if a reinstall might help first, though, because Steve doesn't
know me all that well, & the program might provide me w/insights he'd
rather I not have. But it would be interesting to see if perhaps there
were bloat/mal/pup-ware on the machines that was taking up resources.

On 5/22/18, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> To Steve: thanks for testing this.
>
> To everyone else: Steve’s reply confirms suspicions raised by some folks:
> UIA miscommunication. UIA slowing down can be caused by anything, the most
> notable ones being a flood of events and a long-running task that blocks UIA
> from helping NVDA. I’m thinking that somehow, there are apps that uses a lot
> of resources or fires many UIA events to a point UIA stalls. One possible
> way to resolve this is closing apps via Task Manager (although that might
> not respond well if tasks use a lot of resources).
>
> Regarding this problem, if I remember conversations between developers
> correctly (on Gitter), Microsoft and NV Access had many conversations
> regarding this matter. Although Microsoft did fix UIA issues in recent
> Windows 10 releases, both entities acknowledge that there are problems to be
> resolved.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 4:04 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>
> Hi David and Joseph,
>
>
>
> Yes, If I type it correctly, as David states, then my Explorer.exe
> functionality comes back.
>
>
>
> So it has to be a UIA thing.
>
>
>
> All the best
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>  <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of David Reynolds
> Sent: 21 May 2018 21:30
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>
> Joseph,
>
> You made a typo, it should say:
>
> UIAHandler.terminate()
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> David.
>
>
>
> On 21-May-18 9:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> For those experiencing this problem, can you try the following for me
> please:
>
> 1. Press Control+NVDA+Z to open Python Console
> 2. Type the following as exactly as shown:
>
>
>
> import UIAHandler
>
> UIAHandler.temrinate()
>
>
>
> Then press Escape, and try navigating around File Explorer. Note that this
> will turn off UIA support completely, so it’ll mean Start menu and other UIA
> controls won’t work.
>
> If you find that this helps NVDA respond better, then we can rule out screen
> resolution and other things that has nothing to do with UI Automation and
> other causes. If this procedure does not help, then we need to look into
> possibly universal apps taking up resources, unresponsive drivers, UIA
> getting stuck somewhere and what not.
>
> After you experiment with this, either restart NvDA or restore UIA support
> via Python Console. To do this via python Console:
>
> 1. Press Control+NvDA+Z to open Python Console.
> 2. Type the following as exactly as shown:
>
>
>
> import UIAHandler
>
> UIAHandler.initialize()
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Annette
> Moore
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 12:54 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>
> Unlike Steve, I can get my lists to read after sitting here for a minute or
> two or just having one window in focus and not alt tabbing to another one
> for a few minutes. It's almost like something has to catch up with what I'm
> doing, but it will--eventually--do what it's supposed to. I never came to
> the list with this, though, because I just figured it was something with
> NVDA that would likely be corrected in another update because it just
> recently started doing this and it's not so disruptive that it's rendering
> my use of the computer or File Explorer completely impossible. Restarting
> NVDA also corrects it, and usually for the rest of the day, it's fine. It
> sounds like Steve's having a much worse time with it than I am. Also,
> closing and reopening the window you're trying to read lists from helps.
> I've done that as well. Maximizing the window will read you the list item in
> focus, but if it isn't ready to settle down and behave yet, you have to keep
> maximizing the window as you arrow down so it'll read you the list item. It
> does move as you arrow down, though; it will move to the next item; it just
> won't read you what it is until you maximize the screen. It's really bad
> with Dropbox. It's worse with Dropbox than it is with File Explorer. When I
> copy and paste something or move something out of a Dropbox folder, I'd
> better get up and take a short, two or three-minute break because it's going
> to take that long to behave again, and then, once I cloes the Dropbox
> window, all is well. I do find, though, that the more windows I have open,
> the worse it is, so now I just try to work with two or three open at a time,
> and if I can, I close one if I want to open another one. that's probably
> just good, practical use of the computer anyway; you don't want to have too
> many windows open or it'll start acting funky anyway. If it gets worse, I'll
> just reinstall NVDA
>
> Annette
>
>
>
> On 5/21/2018 1:15 PM, Gene wrote:
>
> I agree.  While certain settings may affect this problem, I doubt that most
> of them do, and not all are appropriate for all computers, such as the
> resolution.  But the reason I'm doubtful that any settings changes will help
> is because this is a new problem after the latest Windows update.  It sounds
> to me like a UIA automation problem, which isn't user correctable.
>
>
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original message -----
>
> From: Jackie <mailto:abletec@...>
>
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:10 PM
>
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>
> W/all due respect, I will disagree w/some of these last comments. I've
> disabled graphics hotkeys, as inadvertently pressing these can cause
> display rotation. I'm not sure if that will cause problems w/NVDA if
> the display is unintentionally rotated, but I can tell you for certain
> sighted folks hate standing on their head to look at the screen. The
> resolution should be that supported by the monitor. Mine, for example,
> is 1920x1080.
>
> Steve, just out of curiosity, have you tried uninstalling & then
> reinstalling NVDA w/the latest update? I'm just wondering if something
> may have gotten corrupted here.
>
> On 5/21/18, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@... <mailto:aa2vm@...>
>> wrote:
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>>
>> I am wondering about what settings you have for the File Explorer.  I
>> have noticed that with some settings in Windows/file explorer since
>> Windows 7, that it doesn't interface well with screen readers.  In
>> particular, if you have under the view menu extra large icons or grid or
>> something other than list or details checked, you will have problems.
>> First check the view menu to see that either list or details is checked.
>>
>>
>> Also make sure that everything under the group by sub menu is
>> unchecked.  If anything is checked under that menu, it can result in
>> sluggishness and odd behavior.
>>
>>
>> Also under the graphics options sub menu there are sub menus. Under the
>> panel options only the display scaling is checked. Under the resolution
>> sub menu 1024 X 768 is checked. Under the rotaton sub menu, rotate to 0
>> degrees is checked.
>>
>> Under the hotkeys and tray icons sub menu, they are both enabled.
>>
>>
>> Check out these settings and make them conform to the suggestions above
>> and see if that helps with your file explorer issues.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/21/2018 11:10 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>>
>>> Yep, this pretty much mirrors my experience, although I can never get
>>> NVDA to read the list now.
>>>
>>> NVDA is pretty horrible with File Explorer under Windows 10, and it’s
>>> got worse with this build.
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > *On Behalf Of
>>> *Annette Moore
>>> *Sent:* 20 May 2018 20:15
>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>>
>>> I just close file explorer and reopen it when it starts acting funky.
>>> either that, or I shut down NVDA and restart it. Alternatively, I can
>>> sit here and stare at the computer for a few minutes, until it decides
>>> to behave itself, which it does eventually do. It has to be an NVDA
>>> thing, though, because it doesn't do this with System Access at all. I
>>> have trouble alt tabbing between windows when it wants to act up, and
>>> then I have trouble going through list items. It's like the cursor
>>> doesn't want to move through them but it actually does; it's just NVDA
>>> isn't reading me the items. I also find that if I have more than, say,
>>> two or three windows open and I close one of them, it starts working
>>> fine again. It's random, though, so I never know when it's going to
>>> misbehave. It's not aggravating enough to make me switch screen
>>> readers, though. I just figure it'll be fixed in a future update and
>>> go with it.
>>>
>>> Annette
>>>
>>> On 5/20/2018 11:36 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>>
>>>     So I wonder what is the determining factor then?
>>>
>>>     All the best
>>>
>>>
>>>     Steve
>>>
>>>     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>     <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
>>> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
>>>     *Greg Wocher
>>>     *Sent:* 20 May 2018 17:14
>>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>>
>>>     Hello,
>>>
>>>     I am running the latest version of NVDA on my HP laptop and I do
>>>     not have any issues using NVDA with file explorer. I am also using
>>>     the 1803 Windows update.
>>>
>>>     Greg Wocher
>>>
>>>         On May 20, 2018, at 7:00 AM, Steve Nutt <steve@...
>>> <mailto:steve@...>
>>>         <mailto:steve@...>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         I’m assuming you haven’t tried it in the File Explorer app
>>>         then?  That’s the bug I was reporting.
>>>
>>>         All the best
>>>
>>>
>>>         Steve
>>>
>>>         *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io%3E%3Cnvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> ><nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io%3E%3E*On>
>>> >>*On Behalf Of*Sarah k Alawami
>>>         *Sent:*18 May 2018 21:28
>>>         *To:*nvda list list <nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
>>>         *Subject:*Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10
>>> 1803
>>>
>>>         I can't remember if I replied or not but lists are fine in the
>>>         explorer.exe app. I'm so far knock on wood not having any
>>>         issues as far as I can see, except for obs but that's probably
>>>         a broken app.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>             On May 16, 2018, at 1:03 AM, Steve Nutt
>>>             <steve@... <mailto:steve@...>
>>> <mailto:steve@...>> wrote:
>>>
>>>             Hi,
>>>
>>>             I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not
>>>             reading for me.
>>>
>>>             It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don’t seem
>>>             to be reading.  For example, File Explorer in Windows 10
>>>             is completely silent for me now.
>>>
>>>             JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>>
>>>             Any thoughts?
>>>
>>>             Thanks.
>>>
>>>             All the best
>>>
>>>             Steve
>>>
>>>             --
>>>
>>>             Computer Room Services
>>>
>>>             77 Exeter Close
>>>
>>>             Stevenage
>>>
>>>             Hertfordshire
>>>
>>>             SG1 4PW
>>>
>>>             Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>>
>>>             Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>>
>>>             Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>>
>>>             Email:steve@...
>>> <mailto:Email:steve@...>  <mailto:steve@...>
>>>
>>>             Web:http://www.comproom.co.uk <http://www.comproom.co.uk/>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
>> They ask: "How Happy are You?"
>> I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
> Jackie McBride
> Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
> https://brighter-vision.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com



Re: About Linux

Ervin, Glenn
 

To try to wrap up my info on this list,

Here are some links using Orca on YouTube.

The first one is Orca preferences in Sonar, which is a distro of Linux that is customized to work with Orca, and comes up talking.

I think Sonar uses Arch Linux.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OWSztc3AtY

This one needs the volume up, as it is hard to hear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieo20UtUobw

Here’s an article not YouTube, on the accessible Linux distros.

I would put Ubuntu at the top of the list, but it is not at the top of this list.

Since this is a couple of years old, Ubuntu comes with Mate desktop, not Unity as mentioned in this list.

The only thing I don’t like about Vinux and Sonar is that is a bit challenging for a beginner to get Eloquence going on them.

Also, they use older Kernels.

https://opensource.com/life/15/8/accessibility-linux-blind-disabled

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 12:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] About Linux

 

Here’s a little more, in case others are wondering about getting around in Linux…

Glenn

 

I usually set it to laptop mode, and I use the caps-lock with U I O for prior, current, and next line And J K L For words And M comma  and period For letters.

I believe the numberpad works that way too.

Alt F2 is like tapping the windows key in Windows.

Alt + F1 brings up the programs list, there are three columns, system, places, and accessories, which is where you find common programs, like FireFox and eMail programs.

You can use the applications key like you do in Windows too.

Alt + Tab between windows and alt + F4 to close.

Control + alt + D puts you on the desktop.

Just tab around in programs like Windows.

Control + Alt + T

Puts you in the command-line.

Exit gets you out.

You need to type sudo before each command, or to stay in "administrator", type:

Sudo su or sudo -s

Then you will have to exit sudo and exit again to exit terminal.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 11:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] About Linux

 

I have some info on the Orca screenreader list as well, here’s  links for the list:

Glenn

To: <orca-list@...>

Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 7:00 AM

Send orca-list mailing list submissions to

orca-list@...

 

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit

https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list

or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to

orca-list-request@...

 

You can reach the person managing the list at

orca-list-owner@...

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 11:18 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] About Linux

 

Hi,

There are many distro’s of Linux that work with Orca the screenreader, so I don’t want to keep this thread going on this list, since it’s off-topic.

But I will mention that I like Ubuntu and that is the most popular distribution in use over all.

I do subscribe to a Ubuntu list, and there is an Orca list as well.

Folks can eMail me off list for help getting started.

And here is some information on the Ubuntu list.

I suspect that if you follow the link to the Ubuntu list and put subscribe in the subject, you might get subscribed.

It is a low-traffic list.

Info below.

Glenn --

Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list

Ubuntu-accessibility@...

https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility


Re: About Linux

Ervin, Glenn
 

Here’s a little more, in case others are wondering about getting around in Linux…

Glenn

 

I usually set it to laptop mode, and I use the caps-lock with U I O for prior, current, and next line And J K L For words And M comma  and period For letters.

I believe the numberpad works that way too.

Alt F2 is like tapping the windows key in Windows.

Alt + F1 brings up the programs list, there are three columns, system, places, and accessories, which is where you find common programs, like FireFox and eMail programs.

You can use the applications key like you do in Windows too.

Alt + Tab between windows and alt + F4 to close.

Control + alt + D puts you on the desktop.

Just tab around in programs like Windows.

Control + Alt + T

Puts you in the command-line.

Exit gets you out.

You need to type sudo before each command, or to stay in "administrator", type:

Sudo su or sudo -s

Then you will have to exit sudo and exit again to exit terminal.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 11:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] About Linux

 

I have some info on the Orca screenreader list as well, here’s  links for the list:

Glenn

To: <orca-list@...>

Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 7:00 AM

Send orca-list mailing list submissions to

orca-list@...

 

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit

https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list

or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to

orca-list-request@...

 

You can reach the person managing the list at

orca-list-owner@...

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 11:18 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] About Linux

 

Hi,

There are many distro’s of Linux that work with Orca the screenreader, so I don’t want to keep this thread going on this list, since it’s off-topic.

But I will mention that I like Ubuntu and that is the most popular distribution in use over all.

I do subscribe to a Ubuntu list, and there is an Orca list as well.

Folks can eMail me off list for help getting started.

And here is some information on the Ubuntu list.

I suspect that if you follow the link to the Ubuntu list and put subscribe in the subject, you might get subscribed.

It is a low-traffic list.

Info below.

Glenn --

Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list

Ubuntu-accessibility@...

https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility


Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Annette Moore
 

I'm going to try that again. I don't  actually think I typed that correctly yesterday.


On 5/22/2018 6:04 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi David and Joseph,

 

Yes, If I type it correctly, as David states, then my Explorer.exe functionality comes back.

 

So it has to be a UIA thing.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Reynolds
Sent: 21 May 2018 21:30
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Joseph,

You made a typo, it should say:

UIAHandler.terminate()

 

Cheers,

 

David.

 

On 21-May-18 9:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

For those experiencing this problem, can you try the following for me please:

  1. Press Control+NVDA+Z to open Python Console
  2. Type the following as exactly as shown:

 

import UIAHandler

UIAHandler.temrinate()

 

Then press Escape, and try navigating around File Explorer. Note that this will turn off UIA support completely, so it’ll mean Start menu and other UIA controls won’t work.

If you find that this helps NVDA respond better, then we can rule out screen resolution and other things that has nothing to do with UI Automation and other causes. If this procedure does not help, then we need to look into possibly universal apps taking up resources, unresponsive drivers, UIA getting stuck somewhere and what not.

After you experiment with this, either restart NvDA or restore UIA support via Python Console. To do this via python Console:

  1. Press Control+NvDA+Z to open Python Console.
  2. Type the following as exactly as shown:

 

import UIAHandler

UIAHandler.initialize()

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Annette Moore
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 12:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Unlike Steve, I can get my lists to read after sitting here for a minute or two or just having one window in focus and not alt tabbing to another one for a few minutes. It's almost like something has to catch up with what I'm doing, but it will--eventually--do what it's supposed to. I never came to the list with this, though, because I just figured it was something with NVDA that would likely be corrected in another update because it just recently started doing this and it's not so disruptive that it's rendering my use of the computer or File Explorer completely impossible. Restarting NVDA also corrects it, and usually for the rest of the day, it's fine. It sounds like Steve's having a much worse time with it than I am. Also, closing and reopening the window you're trying to read lists from helps. I've done that as well. Maximizing the window will read you the list item in focus, but if it isn't ready to settle down and behave yet, you have to keep maximizing the window as you arrow down so it'll read you the list item. It does move as you arrow down, though; it will move to the next item; it just won't read you what it is until you maximize the screen. It's really bad with Dropbox. It's worse with Dropbox than it is with File Explorer. When I copy and paste something or move something out of a Dropbox folder, I'd better get up and take a short, two or three-minute break because it's going to take that long to behave again, and then, once I cloes the Dropbox window, all is well. I do find, though, that the more windows I have open, the worse it is, so now I just try to work with two or three open at a time, and if I can, I close one if I want to open another one. that's probably just good, practical use of the computer anyway; you don't want to have too many windows open or it'll start acting funky anyway. If it gets worse, I'll just reinstall NVDA

Annette

 

On 5/21/2018 1:15 PM, Gene wrote:

I agree.  While certain settings may affect this problem, I doubt that most of them do, and not all are appropriate for all computers, such as the resolution.  But the reason I'm doubtful that any settings changes will help is because this is a new problem after the latest Windows update.  It sounds to me like a UIA automation problem, which isn't user correctable. 

 

Gene

----- Original message -----

From: Jackie

Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:10 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

W/all due respect, I will disagree w/some of these last comments. I've
disabled graphics hotkeys, as inadvertently pressing these can cause
display rotation. I'm not sure if that will cause problems w/NVDA if
the display is unintentionally rotated, but I can tell you for certain
sighted folks hate standing on their head to look at the screen. The
resolution should be that supported by the monitor. Mine, for example,
is 1920x1080.

Steve, just out of curiosity, have you tried uninstalling & then
reinstalling NVDA w/the latest update? I'm just wondering if something
may have gotten corrupted here.

On 5/21/18, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>
>
> I am wondering about what settings you have for the File Explorer.  I
> have noticed that with some settings in Windows/file explorer since
> Windows 7, that it doesn't interface well with screen readers.  In
> particular, if you have under the view menu extra large icons or grid or
> something other than list or details checked, you will have problems.
> First check the view menu to see that either list or details is checked.
>
>
> Also make sure that everything under the group by sub menu is
> unchecked.  If anything is checked under that menu, it can result in
> sluggishness and odd behavior.
>
>
> Also under the graphics options sub menu there are sub menus. Under the
> panel options only the display scaling is checked. Under the resolution
> sub menu 1024 X 768 is checked. Under the rotaton sub menu, rotate to 0
> degrees is checked.
>
> Under the hotkeys and tray icons sub menu, they are both enabled.
>
>
> Check out these settings and make them conform to the suggestions above
> and see if that helps with your file explorer issues.
>
>
>
> On 5/21/2018 11:10 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>
>> Yep, this pretty much mirrors my experience, although I can never get
>> NVDA to read the list now.
>>
>> NVDA is pretty horrible with File Explorer under Windows 10, and it’s
>> got worse with this build.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
>> *Annette Moore
>> *Sent:* 20 May 2018 20:15
>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>> I just close file explorer and reopen it when it starts acting funky.
>> either that, or I shut down NVDA and restart it. Alternatively, I can
>> sit here and stare at the computer for a few minutes, until it decides
>> to behave itself, which it does eventually do. It has to be an NVDA
>> thing, though, because it doesn't do this with System Access at all. I
>> have trouble alt tabbing between windows when it wants to act up, and
>> then I have trouble going through list items. It's like the cursor
>> doesn't want to move through them but it actually does; it's just NVDA
>> isn't reading me the items. I also find that if I have more than, say,
>> two or three windows open and I close one of them, it starts working
>> fine again. It's random, though, so I never know when it's going to
>> misbehave. It's not aggravating enough to make me switch screen
>> readers, though. I just figure it'll be fixed in a future update and
>> go with it.
>>
>> Annette
>>
>> On 5/20/2018 11:36 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>
>>     So I wonder what is the determining factor then?
>>
>>     All the best
>>
>>
>>     Steve
>>
>>     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>     <nvda@nvda.groups.io> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
>>     *Greg Wocher
>>     *Sent:* 20 May 2018 17:14
>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>>     Hello,
>>
>>     I am running the latest version of NVDA on my HP laptop and I do
>>     not have any issues using NVDA with file explorer. I am also using
>>     the 1803 Windows update.
>>
>>     Greg Wocher
>>
>>         On May 20, 2018, at 7:00 AM, Steve Nutt <steve@...
>>         <mailto:steve@...>> wrote:
>>
>>         I’m assuming you haven’t tried it in the File Explorer app
>>         then?  That’s the bug I was reporting.
>>
>>         All the best
>>
>>
>>         Steve
>>
>>         *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io><nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>*On Behalf Of*Sarah k Alawami
>>         *Sent:*18 May 2018 21:28
>>         *To:*nvda list list <nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
>>         *Subject:*Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10
>> 1803
>>
>>         I can't remember if I replied or not but lists are fine in the
>>         explorer.exe app. I'm so far knock on wood not having any
>>         issues as far as I can see, except for obs but that's probably
>>         a broken app.
>>
>>
>>
>>             On May 16, 2018, at 1:03 AM, Steve Nutt
>>             <steve@... <mailto:steve@...>> wrote:
>>
>>             Hi,
>>
>>             I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not
>>             reading for me.
>>
>>             It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don’t seem
>>             to be reading.  For example, File Explorer in Windows 10
>>             is completely silent for me now.
>>
>>             JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>
>>             Any thoughts?
>>
>>             Thanks.
>>
>>             All the best
>>
>>             Steve
>>
>>             --
>>
>>             Computer Room Services
>>
>>             77 Exeter Close
>>
>>             Stevenage
>>
>>             Hertfordshire
>>
>>             SG1 4PW
>>
>>             Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>
>>             Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>
>>             Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>
>>             Email:steve@... <mailto:steve@...>
>>
>>             Web:http://www.comproom.co.uk <http://www.comproom.co.uk/>
>>
>>
>
> --
> They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
> They ask: "How Happy are You?"
> I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
>
>


--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com



 

 



Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Annette Moore
 

Hi, Steve. Man, that is a bummer! Mine will after a couple of minutes. I tried what Joseph suggested yesterday and it did seem to work better, but it still wasn't perfect. If I close a window or two, it works just fine, so I've just decided that I'll do my best to only keep a couple of windows open when I need to read list items in Explorer. does restarting NVDA work at all for you, Steve? It does for me; in fact, it fixes the problem for a while.

Annette


On 5/22/2018 5:35 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi Annette,

 

No, I can sit here for five minuts, and the list will never read.  It will read the first item it lands on when you open File Explorer, but that’s all she wrote.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Annette Moore
Sent: 21 May 2018 20:54
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Unlike Steve, I can get my lists to read after sitting here for a minute or two or just having one window in focus and not alt tabbing to another one for a few minutes. It's almost like something has to catch up with what I'm doing, but it will--eventually--do what it's supposed to. I never came to the list with this, though, because I just figured it was something with NVDA that would likely be corrected in another update because it just recently started doing this and it's not so disruptive that it's rendering my use of the computer or File Explorer completely impossible. Restarting NVDA also corrects it, and usually for the rest of the day, it's fine. It sounds like Steve's having a much worse time with it than I am. Also, closing and reopening the window you're trying to read lists from helps. I've done that as well. Maximizing the window will read you the list item in focus, but if it isn't ready to settle down and behave yet, you have to keep maximizing the window as you arrow down so it'll read you the list item. It does move as you arrow down, though; it will move to the next item; it just won't read you what it is until you maximize the screen. It's really bad with Dropbox. It's worse with Dropbox than it is with File Explorer. When I copy and paste something or move something out of a Dropbox folder, I'd better get up and take a short, two or three-minute break because it's going to take that long to behave again, and then, once I cloes the Dropbox window, all is well. I do find, though, that the more windows I have open, the worse it is, so now I just try to work with two or three open at a time, and if I can, I close one if I want to open another one. that's probably just good, practical use of the computer anyway; you don't want to have too many windows open or it'll start acting funky anyway. If it gets worse, I'll just reinstall NVDA

Annette

 

On 5/21/2018 1:15 PM, Gene wrote:

I agree.  While certain settings may affect this problem, I doubt that most of them do, and not all are appropriate for all computers, such as the resolution.  But the reason I'm doubtful that any settings changes will help is because this is a new problem after the latest Windows update.  It sounds to me like a UIA automation problem, which isn't user correctable. 

 

Gene

----- Original message -----

From: Jackie

Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:10 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

W/all due respect, I will disagree w/some of these last comments. I've
disabled graphics hotkeys, as inadvertently pressing these can cause
display rotation. I'm not sure if that will cause problems w/NVDA if
the display is unintentionally rotated, but I can tell you for certain
sighted folks hate standing on their head to look at the screen. The
resolution should be that supported by the monitor. Mine, for example,
is 1920x1080.

Steve, just out of curiosity, have you tried uninstalling & then
reinstalling NVDA w/the latest update? I'm just wondering if something
may have gotten corrupted here.

On 5/21/18, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>
>
> I am wondering about what settings you have for the File Explorer.  I
> have noticed that with some settings in Windows/file explorer since
> Windows 7, that it doesn't interface well with screen readers.  In
> particular, if you have under the view menu extra large icons or grid or
> something other than list or details checked, you will have problems.
> First check the view menu to see that either list or details is checked.
>
>
> Also make sure that everything under the group by sub menu is
> unchecked.  If anything is checked under that menu, it can result in
> sluggishness and odd behavior.
>
>
> Also under the graphics options sub menu there are sub menus. Under the
> panel options only the display scaling is checked. Under the resolution
> sub menu 1024 X 768 is checked. Under the rotaton sub menu, rotate to 0
> degrees is checked.
>
> Under the hotkeys and tray icons sub menu, they are both enabled.
>
>
> Check out these settings and make them conform to the suggestions above
> and see if that helps with your file explorer issues.
>
>
>
> On 5/21/2018 11:10 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>
>> Yep, this pretty much mirrors my experience, although I can never get
>> NVDA to read the list now.
>>
>> NVDA is pretty horrible with File Explorer under Windows 10, and it’s
>> got worse with this build.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
>> *Annette Moore
>> *Sent:* 20 May 2018 20:15
>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>> I just close file explorer and reopen it when it starts acting funky.
>> either that, or I shut down NVDA and restart it. Alternatively, I can
>> sit here and stare at the computer for a few minutes, until it decides
>> to behave itself, which it does eventually do. It has to be an NVDA
>> thing, though, because it doesn't do this with System Access at all. I
>> have trouble alt tabbing between windows when it wants to act up, and
>> then I have trouble going through list items. It's like the cursor
>> doesn't want to move through them but it actually does; it's just NVDA
>> isn't reading me the items. I also find that if I have more than, say,
>> two or three windows open and I close one of them, it starts working
>> fine again. It's random, though, so I never know when it's going to
>> misbehave. It's not aggravating enough to make me switch screen
>> readers, though. I just figure it'll be fixed in a future update and
>> go with it.
>>
>> Annette
>>
>> On 5/20/2018 11:36 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>
>>     So I wonder what is the determining factor then?
>>
>>     All the best
>>
>>
>>     Steve
>>
>>     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>     <nvda@nvda.groups.io> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
>>     *Greg Wocher
>>     *Sent:* 20 May 2018 17:14
>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>>     Hello,
>>
>>     I am running the latest version of NVDA on my HP laptop and I do
>>     not have any issues using NVDA with file explorer. I am also using
>>     the 1803 Windows update.
>>
>>     Greg Wocher
>>
>>         On May 20, 2018, at 7:00 AM, Steve Nutt <steve@...
>>         <mailto:steve@...>> wrote:
>>
>>         I’m assuming you haven’t tried it in the File Explorer app
>>         then?  That’s the bug I was reporting.
>>
>>         All the best
>>
>>
>>         Steve
>>
>>         *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io><nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>*On Behalf Of*Sarah k Alawami
>>         *Sent:*18 May 2018 21:28
>>         *To:*nvda list list <nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
>>         *Subject:*Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10
>> 1803
>>
>>         I can't remember if I replied or not but lists are fine in the
>>         explorer.exe app. I'm so far knock on wood not having any
>>         issues as far as I can see, except for obs but that's probably
>>         a broken app.
>>
>>
>>
>>             On May 16, 2018, at 1:03 AM, Steve Nutt
>>             <steve@... <mailto:steve@...>> wrote:
>>
>>             Hi,
>>
>>             I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not
>>             reading for me.
>>
>>             It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don’t seem
>>             to be reading.  For example, File Explorer in Windows 10
>>             is completely silent for me now.
>>
>>             JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>
>>             Any thoughts?
>>
>>             Thanks.
>>
>>             All the best
>>
>>             Steve
>>
>>             --
>>
>>             Computer Room Services
>>
>>             77 Exeter Close
>>
>>             Stevenage
>>
>>             Hertfordshire
>>
>>             SG1 4PW
>>
>>             Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>
>>             Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>
>>             Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>
>>             Email:steve@... <mailto:steve@...>
>>
>>             Web:http://www.comproom.co.uk <http://www.comproom.co.uk/>
>>
>>
>
> --
> They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
> They ask: "How Happy are You?"
> I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
>
>


--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com


 



Re: About Linux

Ervin, Glenn
 

I have some info on the Orca screenreader list as well, here’s  links for the list:

Glenn

To: <orca-list@...>

Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 7:00 AM

Send orca-list mailing list submissions to

orca-list@...

 

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit

https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list

or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to

orca-list-request@...

 

You can reach the person managing the list at

orca-list-owner@...

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 11:18 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] About Linux

 

Hi,

There are many distro’s of Linux that work with Orca the screenreader, so I don’t want to keep this thread going on this list, since it’s off-topic.

But I will mention that I like Ubuntu and that is the most popular distribution in use over all.

I do subscribe to a Ubuntu list, and there is an Orca list as well.

Folks can eMail me off list for help getting started.

And here is some information on the Ubuntu list.

I suspect that if you follow the link to the Ubuntu list and put subscribe in the subject, you might get subscribed.

It is a low-traffic list.

Info below.

Glenn --

Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list

Ubuntu-accessibility@...

https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility


Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Angela Delicata
 

OK, if you would make  few examples of what you cannot do with nvda it would be appreciated.

Thank you.
Ciao.

Il 22/05/2018 18:31, Steve Nutt ha scritto:
Wow, I wish I could agree with you. Still not enough configuration for me.

NVDA's not bad, but not so usable as JAWS with applications that have
custom interfaces.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: 22 May 2018 16:16
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Thank you for your reply: I think nvda is getting more and more closer to
Jaws and I would dare to say  it is very very good now... I am using it full
time and don't feel the need for Jws at all...

I don't no with specific software, but i know friends of mine who use it at
workplace also, nvda I mean.



Il 22/05/2018 17:07, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
Hi Angela,
I think Linux and Apple both suffer the loss to Microsoft.
Just like with the old video tapes, one has to win out, and it may not be
the best one.
I think that Linux is superior to Windows in many ways, although like
NVDA, Orca is not as robust as JFW.
But most of the software we use in Linux is free.
I think that many of us who are getting Mom & Dad or Grandma and Grandpa
their first computer would do well to get them a computer with Ubuntu,
especially if they are not visually impaired.
They can more safely browse the web and still do their eMail and play
those card games.
Or I think that if they had an XP machine or will soon need to replace
their Windows 7 machine, you can install Ubuntu on that old computer
alongside of their old windows and they will be happy and more secure.
Glenn


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Angela
Delicata
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:59 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glen,

I am very interested: please, speak about linux and how accessible it
is... I have never used it and don't know many blind folks who use this
system... If you say it is so good, I wonder why so  few people use it I
mean I know quite a lot of blind folks and they have  Apple and Windows,
but Linumx is not so much used. Why is is so?

Tell me, i am curious because I would like to learn to use it in the
future.
Thank you so much.

Best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/05/2018 16:21, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find
that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It
comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all
free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it
is like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy &
paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it
starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can
use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you
only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the
conventional Windows Desktop interface?


The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web,
but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word
Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing
Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar.
Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in
Windows.


So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss
open programs/sites/projects.


Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional
Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed
approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.
On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development.
Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability
will depend on maturity of the feature in question:
A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related
activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage
experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support
tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be
able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.
When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen
controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown,
and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app
content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to
what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version
1709).
While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to
open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of
typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets
you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for
things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge
new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the
just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.
To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or
Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that
you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close
an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press
Alt+F4.
You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser
that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are
nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add
the Windows key to the mix.
But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will
list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs
and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running
inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps.
You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows
instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in
another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook,
Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.
There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and
drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app
tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of
Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a
workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from
Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python
Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python
Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.
Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how
do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help
with screen reader accessibility?
Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to
matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they
learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted
users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't
have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may
not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.
But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough
blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if
the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt
with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that
justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.
I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that is
working very well with an earlier version of Windows.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can
simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7.
They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have
new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows
10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their
messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if
Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons
for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win 10
essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting
'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be
reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me
now.


JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@...>
steve@...<mailto:steve@...>
Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk




























Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Gene
 

This problem started with the newest major update to Windows.  I have no idea whether reinstalling would help but who knows?  I am skeptical that other user attempts, such as stopping apps will help.  Not only did this problem start with the newest full version of Windows, but it isn't even a question of slow response.  It reads the first item in a list and doesn't read any other items.  This is not what I would expect even if a lot of apps were running. Slow, yes.  A complete failure to read any more than the first item in the list, no. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Jackie
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Yeah, & this was something I was gonna ask Steve to do, ie, download
frst64.exe & run it so I could see what apps were running. I wanted to
see if a reinstall might help first, though, because Steve doesn't
know me all that well, & the program might provide me w/insights he'd
rather I not have. But it would be interesting to see if perhaps there
were bloat/mal/pup-ware on the machines that was taking up resources.

On 5/22/18, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> To Steve: thanks for testing this.
>
> To everyone else: Steve’s reply confirms suspicions raised by some folks:
> UIA miscommunication. UIA slowing down can be caused by anything, the most
> notable ones being a flood of events and a long-running task that blocks UIA
> from helping NVDA. I’m thinking that somehow, there are apps that uses a lot
> of resources or fires many UIA events to a point UIA stalls. One possible
> way to resolve this is closing apps via Task Manager (although that might
> not respond well if tasks use a lot of resources).
>
> Regarding this problem, if I remember conversations between developers
> correctly (on Gitter), Microsoft and NV Access had many conversations
> regarding this matter. Although Microsoft did fix UIA issues in recent
> Windows 10 releases, both entities acknowledge that there are problems to be
> resolved.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 4:04 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>
> Hi David and Joseph,
>
>
>
> Yes, If I type it correctly, as David states, then my Explorer.exe
> functionality comes back.
>
>
>
> So it has to be a UIA thing.
>
>
>
> All the best
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>  <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of David Reynolds
> Sent: 21 May 2018 21:30
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>
> Joseph,
>
> You made a typo, it should say:
>
> UIAHandler.terminate()
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> David.
>
>
>
> On 21-May-18 9:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> For those experiencing this problem, can you try the following for me
> please:
>
> 1. Press Control+NVDA+Z to open Python Console
> 2. Type the following as exactly as shown:
>
>
>
> import UIAHandler
>
> UIAHandler.temrinate()
>
>
>
> Then press Escape, and try navigating around File Explorer. Note that this
> will turn off UIA support completely, so it’ll mean Start menu and other UIA
> controls won’t work.
>
> If you find that this helps NVDA respond better, then we can rule out screen
> resolution and other things that has nothing to do with UI Automation and
> other causes. If this procedure does not help, then we need to look into
> possibly universal apps taking up resources, unresponsive drivers, UIA
> getting stuck somewhere and what not.
>
> After you experiment with this, either restart NvDA or restore UIA support
> via Python Console. To do this via python Console:
>
> 1. Press Control+NvDA+Z to open Python Console.
> 2. Type the following as exactly as shown:
>
>
>
> import UIAHandler
>
> UIAHandler.initialize()
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Annette
> Moore
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 12:54 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>
> Unlike Steve, I can get my lists to read after sitting here for a minute or
> two or just having one window in focus and not alt tabbing to another one
> for a few minutes. It's almost like something has to catch up with what I'm
> doing, but it will--eventually--do what it's supposed to. I never came to
> the list with this, though, because I just figured it was something with
> NVDA that would likely be corrected in another update because it just
> recently started doing this and it's not so disruptive that it's rendering
> my use of the computer or File Explorer completely impossible. Restarting
> NVDA also corrects it, and usually for the rest of the day, it's fine. It
> sounds like Steve's having a much worse time with it than I am. Also,
> closing and reopening the window you're trying to read lists from helps.
> I've done that as well. Maximizing the window will read you the list item in
> focus, but if it isn't ready to settle down and behave yet, you have to keep
> maximizing the window as you arrow down so it'll read you the list item. It
> does move as you arrow down, though; it will move to the next item; it just
> won't read you what it is until you maximize the screen. It's really bad
> with Dropbox. It's worse with Dropbox than it is with File Explorer. When I
> copy and paste something or move something out of a Dropbox folder, I'd
> better get up and take a short, two or three-minute break because it's going
> to take that long to behave again, and then, once I cloes the Dropbox
> window, all is well. I do find, though, that the more windows I have open,
> the worse it is, so now I just try to work with two or three open at a time,
> and if I can, I close one if I want to open another one. that's probably
> just good, practical use of the computer anyway; you don't want to have too
> many windows open or it'll start acting funky anyway. If it gets worse, I'll
> just reinstall NVDA
>
> Annette
>
>
>
> On 5/21/2018 1:15 PM, Gene wrote:
>
> I agree.  While certain settings may affect this problem, I doubt that most
> of them do, and not all are appropriate for all computers, such as the
> resolution.  But the reason I'm doubtful that any settings changes will help
> is because this is a new problem after the latest Windows update.  It sounds
> to me like a UIA automation problem, which isn't user correctable.
>
>
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original message -----
>
> From: Jackie <mailto:abletec@...>
>
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:10 PM
>
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>
> W/all due respect, I will disagree w/some of these last comments. I've
> disabled graphics hotkeys, as inadvertently pressing these can cause
> display rotation. I'm not sure if that will cause problems w/NVDA if
> the display is unintentionally rotated, but I can tell you for certain
> sighted folks hate standing on their head to look at the screen. The
> resolution should be that supported by the monitor. Mine, for example,
> is 1920x1080.
>
> Steve, just out of curiosity, have you tried uninstalling & then
> reinstalling NVDA w/the latest update? I'm just wondering if something
> may have gotten corrupted here.
>
> On 5/21/18, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@... <mailto:aa2vm@...>
>> wrote:
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>>
>> I am wondering about what settings you have for the File Explorer.  I
>> have noticed that with some settings in Windows/file explorer since
>> Windows 7, that it doesn't interface well with screen readers.  In
>> particular, if you have under the view menu extra large icons or grid or
>> something other than list or details checked, you will have problems.
>> First check the view menu to see that either list or details is checked.
>>
>>
>> Also make sure that everything under the group by sub menu is
>> unchecked.  If anything is checked under that menu, it can result in
>> sluggishness and odd behavior.
>>
>>
>> Also under the graphics options sub menu there are sub menus. Under the
>> panel options only the display scaling is checked. Under the resolution
>> sub menu 1024 X 768 is checked. Under the rotaton sub menu, rotate to 0
>> degrees is checked.
>>
>> Under the hotkeys and tray icons sub menu, they are both enabled.
>>
>>
>> Check out these settings and make them conform to the suggestions above
>> and see if that helps with your file explorer issues.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/21/2018 11:10 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>>
>>> Yep, this pretty much mirrors my experience, although I can never get
>>> NVDA to read the list now.
>>>
>>> NVDA is pretty horrible with File Explorer under Windows 10, and it’s
>>> got worse with this build.
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > *On Behalf Of
>>> *Annette Moore
>>> *Sent:* 20 May 2018 20:15
>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>>
>>> I just close file explorer and reopen it when it starts acting funky.
>>> either that, or I shut down NVDA and restart it. Alternatively, I can
>>> sit here and stare at the computer for a few minutes, until it decides
>>> to behave itself, which it does eventually do. It has to be an NVDA
>>> thing, though, because it doesn't do this with System Access at all. I
>>> have trouble alt tabbing between windows when it wants to act up, and
>>> then I have trouble going through list items. It's like the cursor
>>> doesn't want to move through them but it actually does; it's just NVDA
>>> isn't reading me the items. I also find that if I have more than, say,
>>> two or three windows open and I close one of them, it starts working
>>> fine again. It's random, though, so I never know when it's going to
>>> misbehave. It's not aggravating enough to make me switch screen
>>> readers, though. I just figure it'll be fixed in a future update and
>>> go with it.
>>>
>>> Annette
>>>
>>> On 5/20/2018 11:36 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>>
>>>     So I wonder what is the determining factor then?
>>>
>>>     All the best
>>>
>>>
>>>     Steve
>>>
>>>     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>     <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
>>> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
>>>     *Greg Wocher
>>>     *Sent:* 20 May 2018 17:14
>>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>>
>>>     Hello,
>>>
>>>     I am running the latest version of NVDA on my HP laptop and I do
>>>     not have any issues using NVDA with file explorer. I am also using
>>>     the 1803 Windows update.
>>>
>>>     Greg Wocher
>>>
>>>         On May 20, 2018, at 7:00 AM, Steve Nutt <steve@...
>>> <mailto:steve@...>
>>>         <mailto:steve@...>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         I’m assuming you haven’t tried it in the File Explorer app
>>>         then?  That’s the bug I was reporting.
>>>
>>>         All the best
>>>
>>>
>>>         Steve
>>>
>>>         *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io%3E%3Cnvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> ><nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io%3E%3E*On>
>>> >>*On Behalf Of*Sarah k Alawami
>>>         *Sent:*18 May 2018 21:28
>>>         *To:*nvda list list <nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
>>>         *Subject:*Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10
>>> 1803
>>>
>>>         I can't remember if I replied or not but lists are fine in the
>>>         explorer.exe app. I'm so far knock on wood not having any
>>>         issues as far as I can see, except for obs but that's probably
>>>         a broken app.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>             On May 16, 2018, at 1:03 AM, Steve Nutt
>>>             <steve@... <mailto:steve@...>
>>> <mailto:steve@...>> wrote:
>>>
>>>             Hi,
>>>
>>>             I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not
>>>             reading for me.
>>>
>>>             It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don’t seem
>>>             to be reading.  For example, File Explorer in Windows 10
>>>             is completely silent for me now.
>>>
>>>             JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>>
>>>             Any thoughts?
>>>
>>>             Thanks.
>>>
>>>             All the best
>>>
>>>             Steve
>>>
>>>             --
>>>
>>>             Computer Room Services
>>>
>>>             77 Exeter Close
>>>
>>>             Stevenage
>>>
>>>             Hertfordshire
>>>
>>>             SG1 4PW
>>>
>>>             Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>>
>>>             Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>>
>>>             Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>>
>>>             Email:steve@...
>>> <mailto:Email:steve@...>  <mailto:steve@...>
>>>
>>>             Web:http://www.comproom.co.uk <http://www.comproom.co.uk/>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
>> They ask: "How Happy are You?"
>> I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
> Jackie McBride
> Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
> https://brighter-vision.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com




Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Hi Steve,
Unfortunately, no. Disabling UIA may have cured File Explorer issue for now,
but it meant losing access to Start menu, various apps including Microsoft
Edge, and other areas of Windows 10. It might be possible that NVDA 2018.2
may have lessened it, an Insider Preview build may have dealt with this, and
what not. I'm hoping that it can be resolved for you, and hope you won't run
into this in Version 1809 once it hits the air later this year.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Joseph,

Since this thread got a little bit hijacked by Linnux, did you get my
message to say that doing the importUIAHandler thing as you directed cured
my Explorer issues?

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 22 May 2018 16:28
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi all,
A few things:
1. Vocalizer: depends on what Nuance would say regarding this.
2. Linux accessibility: technically, this depends on distributions, their
age, and how well they handle accessibility calls. Linux does have
accessibility API.
3. Security: it may appear to be more secure due to perceived smaller market
share. However, as Spector and Meltdown demonstrates, Linux is prone to
security bugs as well, especially if hardware security is involved. Although
Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux kernel was quoted as saying that
security bugs are bugs, Linux kernel developers and distribution vendors
(such as Canonical, the maker of Ubuntu distribution) takes security
seriously.
4. Market share: on the desktop front, Linux's market share is low. On
mobile, server and IoT (internet of things) front, Linux dominates. Android
is a leader in smartphone ecosystem at the moment, and that is powered by
Linux kernel. Many web servers and other cloud data centers use servers
powered by Linux. Internet of Things devices, firmware for many routers and
so on are built on top of Linux. The thing is, some of them are using
outdated Linux kernel versions, which opens up security issues if not tuned
and updated correctly.
5. You can run command-line Linux distributions on Windows: this is powered
by Windows Subsystem for Linux. At the moment there were reports of limited
success with GUI programs.
For more info on Linux, I recommend joining a list such as those for Orca,
Linux Users Groups and so on.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 8:10 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Is it also possible to install Vocalizer voices on Linux?

Thank you for any possible reply, this OS has always  aroused  my curiousity
and I wish I could learn one day.



Il 22/05/2018 16:58, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
It is called Voxin, and it is at:
https://voxin.oralux.net/
I can give you the terminal commands to get it installed, but like
other
settings, you will have to reinstall it if you are running from a live DVD,
but if you install it on USB with a persistence file, it will stay.
Eventually you will probably put Linux on an old computer or duel-boot
it
with your Windows.
If you download the i386 version, Ubuntu will run well on old machines.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Steve
Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Final question then, where do you get Eloquence for it please? I know
you
have to buy it, and I'm happy to do it, but I really don't like ESpeak.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin,
Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Steve,
Yes it does, and there is a lot of free software available for Linux
as
well.
Once Orca starts, it will bring up Orca preferences and you will want
to
tab through the settings for speed and voices.
I always go to the keyboard tab and turn off the speaking of modifier
keys
and I think the other I turn off is navigation keys, because I don't like
hearing when I press those keys.
Don't change the voice from Default in the voice page without
installing a
new speech engine first.
If you burn it to DVD, the changes won't survive a reboot.
If you burn it to USB and make a persistence file, it will keep your
changes.
It has a terminal that is sort of like working in DOS.
That is how I usually install packages and get updates.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Steve
Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Being very new to Linnux, forgive my seemingly silly question, but
does
that Iso download have Orca built into it then? Can I really press
Windows+S to get speech going on this distro? If so, it may tempt me to
Windows+try
it.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin,
Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find
that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It
comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all
free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much
it is
like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy
&
paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after
it
starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you
can
use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and
you
only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with
the
conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the
web,
but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word
Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing
Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar.
Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in
Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to
unload/dismiss
open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the
conventional
Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed
approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development.
Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability
will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related
activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage
experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support
tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be
able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new
screen
controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown,
and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app
content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to
what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version
1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T
to
open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of
typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets
you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for
things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge
new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the
just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or
Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided
Control+Windows+Shift+that
you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close
an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press
Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser
that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are
nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add
the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will
list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs
and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running
inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps.
You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows
instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in
another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook,
Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and
drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app
tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of
Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a
workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from
Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python
Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python
Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and
how
do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help
with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough
to
matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they
learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted
users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't
have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may
not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough
blind
users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if the
problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with
not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies
even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that
is
working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep
on fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I
have actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft
can
simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7.
They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of
windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into
the keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful.
Fine have
new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their
messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype
have been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting
'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically
if
Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem
to make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win
10 essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try
to isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting
'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt"
<steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning
- it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a
solid state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react
a bit more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in
file explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows
10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be
reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me
now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@...>
steve@...<mailto:steve@...>

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk





















Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Jackie,

No malware here, according to various things. I have Malwarebytes, but I don't run it automatically, I only scan when I need to.

No bloat on these custom machines, I know what I'm doing.

So I suspect it's a Microsoft/UIA/NVDA miscommunication thing, especially as I said, JAWS works fine, but JAWS doesn't rely on UIA alone.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jackie
Sent: 22 May 2018 16:59
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Yeah, & this was something I was gonna ask Steve to do, ie, download frst64.exe & run it so I could see what apps were running. I wanted to see if a reinstall might help first, though, because Steve doesn't know me all that well, & the program might provide me w/insights he'd rather I not have. But it would be interesting to see if perhaps there were bloat/mal/pup-ware on the machines that was taking up resources.

On 5/22/18, Joseph Lee <@joslee> wrote:
Hi all,

To Steve: thanks for testing this.

To everyone else: Steve’s reply confirms suspicions raised by some folks:
UIA miscommunication. UIA slowing down can be caused by anything, the
most notable ones being a flood of events and a long-running task that
blocks UIA from helping NVDA. I’m thinking that somehow, there are
apps that uses a lot of resources or fires many UIA events to a point
UIA stalls. One possible way to resolve this is closing apps via Task
Manager (although that might not respond well if tasks use a lot of resources).

Regarding this problem, if I remember conversations between developers
correctly (on Gitter), Microsoft and NV Access had many conversations
regarding this matter. Although Microsoft did fix UIA issues in recent
Windows 10 releases, both entities acknowledge that there are problems
to be resolved.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Hi David and Joseph,



Yes, If I type it correctly, as David states, then my Explorer.exe
functionality comes back.



So it has to be a UIA thing.



All the best



Steve



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of David
Reynolds
Sent: 21 May 2018 21:30
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Joseph,

You made a typo, it should say:

UIAHandler.terminate()



Cheers,



David.



On 21-May-18 9:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

For those experiencing this problem, can you try the following for me
please:

1. Press Control+NVDA+Z to open Python Console
2. Type the following as exactly as shown:



import UIAHandler

UIAHandler.temrinate()



Then press Escape, and try navigating around File Explorer. Note that
this will turn off UIA support completely, so it’ll mean Start menu
and other UIA controls won’t work.

If you find that this helps NVDA respond better, then we can rule out
screen resolution and other things that has nothing to do with UI
Automation and other causes. If this procedure does not help, then we
need to look into possibly universal apps taking up resources,
unresponsive drivers, UIA getting stuck somewhere and what not.

After you experiment with this, either restart NvDA or restore UIA
support via Python Console. To do this via python Console:

1. Press Control+NvDA+Z to open Python Console.
2. Type the following as exactly as shown:



import UIAHandler

UIAHandler.initialize()



Cheers,

Joseph





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Annette Moore
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 12:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Unlike Steve, I can get my lists to read after sitting here for a
minute or two or just having one window in focus and not alt tabbing
to another one for a few minutes. It's almost like something has to
catch up with what I'm doing, but it will--eventually--do what it's
supposed to. I never came to the list with this, though, because I
just figured it was something with NVDA that would likely be corrected
in another update because it just recently started doing this and it's
not so disruptive that it's rendering my use of the computer or File
Explorer completely impossible. Restarting NVDA also corrects it, and
usually for the rest of the day, it's fine. It sounds like Steve's
having a much worse time with it than I am. Also, closing and reopening the window you're trying to read lists from helps.
I've done that as well. Maximizing the window will read you the list
item in focus, but if it isn't ready to settle down and behave yet,
you have to keep maximizing the window as you arrow down so it'll read
you the list item. It does move as you arrow down, though; it will
move to the next item; it just won't read you what it is until you
maximize the screen. It's really bad with Dropbox. It's worse with
Dropbox than it is with File Explorer. When I copy and paste something
or move something out of a Dropbox folder, I'd better get up and take
a short, two or three-minute break because it's going to take that
long to behave again, and then, once I cloes the Dropbox window, all
is well. I do find, though, that the more windows I have open, the
worse it is, so now I just try to work with two or three open at a
time, and if I can, I close one if I want to open another one. that's
probably just good, practical use of the computer anyway; you don't
want to have too many windows open or it'll start acting funky anyway.
If it gets worse, I'll just reinstall NVDA

Annette



On 5/21/2018 1:15 PM, Gene wrote:

I agree. While certain settings may affect this problem, I doubt that
most of them do, and not all are appropriate for all computers, such
as the resolution. But the reason I'm doubtful that any settings
changes will help is because this is a new problem after the latest
Windows update. It sounds to me like a UIA automation problem, which isn't user correctable.



Gene

----- Original message -----

From: Jackie <mailto:abletec@...>

Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:10 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



W/all due respect, I will disagree w/some of these last comments. I've
disabled graphics hotkeys, as inadvertently pressing these can cause
display rotation. I'm not sure if that will cause problems w/NVDA if
the display is unintentionally rotated, but I can tell you for certain
sighted folks hate standing on their head to look at the screen. The
resolution should be that supported by the monitor. Mine, for example,
is 1920x1080.

Steve, just out of curiosity, have you tried uninstalling & then
reinstalling NVDA w/the latest update? I'm just wondering if something
may have gotten corrupted here.

On 5/21/18, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...
<mailto:aa2vm@...>
wrote:
Hi Steve,


I am wondering about what settings you have for the File Explorer. I
have noticed that with some settings in Windows/file explorer since
Windows 7, that it doesn't interface well with screen readers. In
particular, if you have under the view menu extra large icons or grid
or something other than list or details checked, you will have problems.
First check the view menu to see that either list or details is checked.


Also make sure that everything under the group by sub menu is
unchecked. If anything is checked under that menu, it can result in
sluggishness and odd behavior.


Also under the graphics options sub menu there are sub menus. Under
the panel options only the display scaling is checked. Under the
resolution sub menu 1024 X 768 is checked. Under the rotaton sub
menu, rotate to 0 degrees is checked.

Under the hotkeys and tray icons sub menu, they are both enabled.


Check out these settings and make them conform to the suggestions
above and see if that helps with your file explorer issues.



On 5/21/2018 11:10 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Yep, this pretty much mirrors my experience, although I can never
get NVDA to read the list now.

NVDA is pretty horrible with File Explorer under Windows 10, and
it’s got worse with this build.

All the best

Steve

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > *On Behalf Of *Annette Moore
*Sent:* 20 May 2018 20:15
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I just close file explorer and reopen it when it starts acting funky.
either that, or I shut down NVDA and restart it. Alternatively, I
can sit here and stare at the computer for a few minutes, until it
decides to behave itself, which it does eventually do. It has to be
an NVDA thing, though, because it doesn't do this with System Access
at all. I have trouble alt tabbing between windows when it wants to
act up, and then I have trouble going through list items. It's like
the cursor doesn't want to move through them but it actually does;
it's just NVDA isn't reading me the items. I also find that if I
have more than, say, two or three windows open and I close one of
them, it starts working fine again. It's random, though, so I never
know when it's going to misbehave. It's not aggravating enough to
make me switch screen readers, though. I just figure it'll be fixed
in a future update and go with it.

Annette

On 5/20/2018 11:36 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

So I wonder what is the determining factor then?

All the best


Steve

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
*Greg Wocher
*Sent:* 20 May 2018 17:14
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10
1803

Hello,

I am running the latest version of NVDA on my HP laptop and I do
not have any issues using NVDA with file explorer. I am also using
the 1803 Windows update.

Greg Wocher

On May 20, 2018, at 7:00 AM, Steve Nutt
<steve@... <mailto:steve@...>
<mailto:steve@...>> wrote:

I’m assuming you haven’t tried it in the File Explorer app
then? That’s the bug I was reporting.

All the best


Steve

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io%3E%3Cnvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io%3E%3E*On>
*On Behalf Of*Sarah k Alawami
*Sent:*18 May 2018 21:28
*To:*nvda list list <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
*Subject:*Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows
10
1803

I can't remember if I replied or not but lists are fine in the
explorer.exe app. I'm so far knock on wood not having any
issues as far as I can see, except for obs but that's probably
a broken app.



On May 16, 2018, at 1:03 AM, Steve Nutt
<steve@... <mailto:steve@...>
<mailto:steve@...>> wrote:

Hi,

I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not
reading for me.

It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don’t seem
to be reading. For example, File Explorer in Windows 10
is completely silent for me now.

JAWS is reading lists quite happily.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email:steve@...
<mailto:Email:steve@...> <mailto:steve@...>

Web:http://www.comproom.co.uk
<http://www.comproom.co.uk/>

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe Jackie McBride Helping
Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time https://brighter-vision.com











--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe Jackie McBride Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time https://brighter-vision.com


Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Joseph,

Since this thread got a little bit hijacked by Linnux, did you get my
message to say that doing the importUIAHandler thing as you directed cured
my Explorer issues?

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 22 May 2018 16:28
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi all,
A few things:
1. Vocalizer: depends on what Nuance would say regarding this.
2. Linux accessibility: technically, this depends on distributions, their
age, and how well they handle accessibility calls. Linux does have
accessibility API.
3. Security: it may appear to be more secure due to perceived smaller market
share. However, as Spector and Meltdown demonstrates, Linux is prone to
security bugs as well, especially if hardware security is involved. Although
Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux kernel was quoted as saying that
security bugs are bugs, Linux kernel developers and distribution vendors
(such as Canonical, the maker of Ubuntu distribution) takes security
seriously.
4. Market share: on the desktop front, Linux's market share is low. On
mobile, server and IoT (internet of things) front, Linux dominates. Android
is a leader in smartphone ecosystem at the moment, and that is powered by
Linux kernel. Many web servers and other cloud data centers use servers
powered by Linux. Internet of Things devices, firmware for many routers and
so on are built on top of Linux. The thing is, some of them are using
outdated Linux kernel versions, which opens up security issues if not tuned
and updated correctly.
5. You can run command-line Linux distributions on Windows: this is powered
by Windows Subsystem for Linux. At the moment there were reports of limited
success with GUI programs.
For more info on Linux, I recommend joining a list such as those for Orca,
Linux Users Groups and so on.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 8:10 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Is it also possible to install Vocalizer voices on Linux?

Thank you for any possible reply, this OS has always  aroused  my curiousity
and I wish I could learn one day.



Il 22/05/2018 16:58, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
It is called Voxin, and it is at:
https://voxin.oralux.net/
I can give you the terminal commands to get it installed, but like
other
settings, you will have to reinstall it if you are running from a live DVD,
but if you install it on USB with a persistence file, it will stay.
Eventually you will probably put Linux on an old computer or duel-boot
it
with your Windows.
If you download the i386 version, Ubuntu will run well on old machines.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Steve
Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Final question then, where do you get Eloquence for it please? I know
you
have to buy it, and I'm happy to do it, but I really don't like ESpeak.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin,
Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Steve,
Yes it does, and there is a lot of free software available for Linux
as
well.
Once Orca starts, it will bring up Orca preferences and you will want
to
tab through the settings for speed and voices.
I always go to the keyboard tab and turn off the speaking of modifier
keys
and I think the other I turn off is navigation keys, because I don't like
hearing when I press those keys.
Don't change the voice from Default in the voice page without
installing a
new speech engine first.
If you burn it to DVD, the changes won't survive a reboot.
If you burn it to USB and make a persistence file, it will keep your
changes.
It has a terminal that is sort of like working in DOS.
That is how I usually install packages and get updates.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Steve
Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Being very new to Linnux, forgive my seemingly silly question, but
does
that Iso download have Orca built into it then? Can I really press
Windows+S to get speech going on this distro? If so, it may tempt me to
Windows+try
it.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin,
Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find
that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It
comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all
free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much
it is
like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy
&
paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after
it
starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you
can
use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and
you
only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with
the
conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the
web,
but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word
Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing
Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar.
Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in
Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to
unload/dismiss
open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the
conventional
Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed
approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development.
Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability
will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related
activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage
experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support
tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be
able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new
screen
controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown,
and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app
content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to
what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version
1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T
to
open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of
typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets
you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for
things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge
new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the
just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or
Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided
Control+Windows+Shift+that
you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close
an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press
Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser
that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are
nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add
the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will
list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs
and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running
inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps.
You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows
instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in
another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook,
Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and
drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app
tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of
Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a
workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from
Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python
Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python
Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and
how
do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help
with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough
to
matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they
learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted
users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't
have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may
not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough
blind
users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if the
problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with
not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies
even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that
is
working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep
on fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I
have actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft
can
simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7.
They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of
windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into
the keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful.
Fine have
new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their
messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype
have been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting
'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically
if
Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem
to make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win
10 essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try
to isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting
'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt"
<steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning
- it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a
solid state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react
a bit more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in
file explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows
10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be
reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me
now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@...>
steve@...<mailto:steve@...>

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk





















Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Steve Nutt
 

Wow, I wish I could agree with you. Still not enough configuration for me.

NVDA's not bad, but not so usable as JAWS with applications that have
custom interfaces.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: 22 May 2018 16:16
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Thank you for your reply: I think nvda is getting more and more closer to
Jaws and I would dare to say  it is very very good now... I am using it full
time and don't feel the need for Jws at all...

I don't no with specific software, but i know friends of mine who use it at
workplace also, nvda I mean.



Il 22/05/2018 17:07, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
Hi Angela,
I think Linux and Apple both suffer the loss to Microsoft.
Just like with the old video tapes, one has to win out, and it may not be
the best one.
I think that Linux is superior to Windows in many ways, although like
NVDA, Orca is not as robust as JFW.
But most of the software we use in Linux is free.
I think that many of us who are getting Mom & Dad or Grandma and Grandpa
their first computer would do well to get them a computer with Ubuntu,
especially if they are not visually impaired.
They can more safely browse the web and still do their eMail and play
those card games.
Or I think that if they had an XP machine or will soon need to replace
their Windows 7 machine, you can install Ubuntu on that old computer
alongside of their old windows and they will be happy and more secure.
Glenn


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Angela
Delicata
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:59 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glen,

I am very interested: please, speak about linux and how accessible it
is... I have never used it and don't know many blind folks who use this
system... If you say it is so good, I wonder why so  few people use it I
mean I know quite a lot of blind folks and they have  Apple and Windows,
but Linumx is not so much used. Why is is so?

Tell me, i am curious because I would like to learn to use it in the
future.

Thank you so much.

Best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/05/2018 16:21, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find
that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It
comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all
free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it
is like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy &
paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it
starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can
use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you
only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the
conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web,
but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word
Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing
Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar.
Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in
Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss
open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional
Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed
approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development.
Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability
will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related
activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage
experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support
tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be
able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen
controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown,
and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app
content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to
what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version
1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to
open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of
typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets
you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for
things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge
new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the
just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or
Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that
you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close
an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press
Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser
that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are
nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add
the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will
list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs
and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running
inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps.
You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows
instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in
another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook,
Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and
drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app
tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of
Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a
workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from
Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python
Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python
Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how
do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help
with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to
matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they
learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted
users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't
have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may
not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough
blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if
the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt
with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that
justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that is
working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can
simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7.
They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have
new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows
10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their
messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if
Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons
for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win 10
essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting
'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be
reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me
now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@...>
steve@...<mailto:steve@...>

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk


























Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Angela,

This may get off topic for this list, so I suggest that with Glenn's
permission, you write to him directly with questions. I'll do that too, if
that's OK with Glenn, but I'm going to play first.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:59
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glen,

I am very interested: please, speak about linux and how accessible it is...
I have never used it and don't know many blind folks who use this system...
If you say it is so good, I wonder why so  few people use it I mean I know
quite a lot of blind folks and they have  Apple and Windows, but Linumx is
not so much used. Why is is so?

Tell me, i am curious because I would like to learn to use it in the future.

Thank you so much.

Best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/05/2018 16:21, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find
that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It
comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all
free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is
like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy &
paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it
starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can
use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you
only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the
conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web,
but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word
Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing
Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar.
Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in
Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss
open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional
Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed
approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development.
Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability
will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related
activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage
experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support
tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be
able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen
controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown,
and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app
content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to
what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version
1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to
open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of
typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets
you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for
things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge
new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the
just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or
Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that
you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close
an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press
Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser
that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are
nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add
the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will
list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs
and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running
inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps.
You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows
instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in
another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook,
Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and
drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app
tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of
Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a
workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from
Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python
Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python
Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger
Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how
do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help
with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to
matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they
learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted
users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't
have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may
not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind
users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if the
problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with
not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies
even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that is
working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep
on fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I
have actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft
can simply provide a system stable and just with security updates like
windows 7. They are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new
versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into
the keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful.
Fine have new features but do not change the whole concept and still call
it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their
messing about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up
Skype have been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically
if Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem
to make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win
10 essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try
to isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt"
<steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning
- it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a
solid state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react
a bit more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in
file explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows
10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be
reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me
now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@...>
steve@...<mailto:steve@...>

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
























Re: Cloning drives

Ervin, Glenn
 

The talking WinPE has programs for this, but I usually do this in Linux, since I think it does a better job.
Linux has a command-line tool built in for this, called DD.
Linux command-line is much like DOS.
If the drive you want to copy is called:
/dev/sda
And the drive you want to copy it to is
/dev/sdc
You would type:
Dd /dev/sda /dev/sdc
If you want to clone a partition into a single file, the command would be:
Dd /dev/sda dev/sdb/myfile.iso
You would not clone a drive onto itself, so you would have to direct it to another drive that is why you might direct it to something like /dev/sdb in that example.
But that is just an example of using the command-line in Linux, it works much like DOS.
But I use the GUI for things like web browsing, and eMail and text editing and manipulating files.
Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 11:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cloning drives

It is but the ones I've used drop into a kind of temporary dos version so
you hear nothing, even errors if you run it.
Some do allow the cloning script to be written in windows and then it runs
in its own Os as neither drive can have a running windows on it during the
process as there is a swap file and other files locked and hence they will
not be faithfully copied unless you exit windows.
I've not tried it lately but it would be nice to know what works for those
with no sight at all.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cloning drives


Would acronis work for that? I'm actually not sure if that's available on
PC. Good luck.


On May 22, 2018 6:10:39 AM "juan gonzalez" <jgonzalezh614@...>
wrote:

Good day all!
I am looking for software that works with NVDA to clone a hard disk to a
smaller SSD drive. Free would be preferred but if there isn't any than
any
works.


About Linux

Ervin, Glenn
 

Hi,

There are many distro’s of Linux that work with Orca the screenreader, so I don’t want to keep this thread going on this list, since it’s off-topic.

But I will mention that I like Ubuntu and that is the most popular distribution in use over all.

I do subscribe to a Ubuntu list, and there is an Orca list as well.

Folks can eMail me off list for help getting started.

And here is some information on the Ubuntu list.

I suspect that if you follow the link to the Ubuntu list and put subscribe in the subject, you might get subscribed.

It is a low-traffic list.

Info below.

Glenn --

Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list

Ubuntu-accessibility@...

https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility


Re: Cloning drives

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

It is but the ones I've used drop into a kind of temporary dos version so you hear nothing, even errors if you run it.
Some do allow the cloning script to be written in windows and then it runs in its own Os as neither drive can have a running windows on it during the process as there is a swap file and other files locked and hence they will not be faithfully copied unless you exit windows.
I've not tried it lately but it would be nice to know what works for those with no sight at all.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cloning drives


Would acronis work for that? I'm actually not sure if that's available on
PC. Good luck.


On May 22, 2018 6:10:39 AM "juan gonzalez" <jgonzalezh614@...> wrote:

Good day all!
I am looking for software that works with NVDA to clone a hard disk to a
smaller SSD drive. Free would be preferred but if there isn't any than any
works.