Date   

Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Gene
 

I agree that some products or services cost more than they should.  Some services and products cost more because they must, some because a higher cost is charged than should be.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Hi Gene,


I think you have to examine each item on a case by case basis.  For example, the talking microwave ovens that cost 4 times what the same non talking version might be considered exploitative. A technician once told me that to make a microwave talk probably adds about 20 dollars to the cost.  Even if you allowed for a 100% mark up that would only make the average talking microwave about 100 or 150 dollars rather than over 300 dollars.


However, paying a few dollars monthly like with captcha be gone is hardly a huge burden even to those on fixed income.



On 9/24/2018 1:56 PM, Gene wrote:
The problem isn't just with this one service.  The underlying assumption of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind people would be if this had been followed throughout history? 
 
In an ideal world, this might be the case.  But as a practical matter, it isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable. 
 
NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually, role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Cristóbal
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?

He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.

Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow through on stuff. Whatever.

But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.

 

 

 

Cristóbal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...> wrote:

Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.

Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.

 

Cristóbal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...> wrote:

The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless” computer.

I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.

But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.

So for most folks, that is a good solution.

 

Glenn

It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally have a monitor connected to it.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Desert Moon
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Hello All,

When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
--
Desert


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Gene
 

But Webvism can still be used if you use an older version of firefox.  So you can use a portable version of Firefox for only sites that require captcha solution and a current version for all other sites.  I'm curious about what will happen when the domain, if I'm using the right term, for Webvism has to be renewed.  You may recall that a few years ago, whoever was supposed to do so forgot and it wasn't available for many days.  So the question is will it be renewed again or will it just disappear one day?
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Hi Gene,


That's two for two today.  The only thing I think was kind of bad about the way this happened is that the original developer of this program didn't tell anyone that he was discontinuing the service/software. It was similar to what happened at Webvisum.  One day it was there, and the next it wasn't.  Unlike James Scholes who tried to revitalize the Webvisum add on and actually extended its life for a year or so, when it became too much of a problem for him to try tackling, he let it be known that he simply didn't have the means/resources to continue to make Webvisum compatible with later versions of Firefox. That is all you can expect of people; he tried and after a time just couldn't do it and he made sure that people knew he had tried and couldn't continue.  That's all anyone can ask.



On 9/24/2018 1:40 PM, Gene wrote:
Whether it was more expensive than it should have been is one question.  But being blind may cost you some money because you may need a service that you need to pay for.  Ideally, you would get such services for free but this is not an ideal world and assuming that someone charging for something is exploiting you is not reasonable nor valid logic.  It depends. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...> wrote:

The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless” computer.

I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.

But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.

So for most folks, that is a good solution.

 

Glenn

It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally have a monitor connected to it.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Desert Moon
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Hello All,

When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
--
Desert


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Gene,


I think this gets back to one of you Gene's pet peeves.  Many people using screen access technology simply don't get good instruction.  I have used in my lifetime: Vocal Eyes, JAWS For DOS, JAWS for Windows, Window Eyes and NVDA.  I have also used Orca for Linux.  When you get down to it, there isn't a huge difference between all the DOS based programs (now mostly defunct) and all the Windows based programs and even to a degree the ones for Linux.  I have had no great difficulty adjusting and moving rapidly from one to the other. 


This is because I had a good foundation for just how DOS, Linux and Windows work.  I also had the advantage of a US Air force Drill Instructor--a personal friend of mine--who once he got the concept of how screen access technology worked, was able to give me valuable pointers on just how
Windows was laid out and just what was happening on the screen when I was navigating with the screen readers.  This process took me about 3 weeks and I have never looked back.



On 9/24/2018 2:50 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm nnot talking about exact methods and I don't know how proprietary they are or how generally known such methods are.  I'm talking about ways of doing things such as MSAA which is now largely replaced as I understand it by UIA and techniques that are in public view.  Quick navigation keys when using browse mode, b for button, h for heading etc. aren't proprietary and anyone can use a commercial screen-reader that uses them and see them described in documentation.  Concepts like the JAWS cursor or the Window-eyes mouse pointer are in plain view.  Commands for seeing formatting information is another example. 
 
My point is that a lot of work and development went into for profit screen-readers which is in plain view and NVDA wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced as it is if these decades of work hadn't been done.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Hi Gene,
How can we be sure that NVDA is built on the same foundations as
commercial screen readers? To me, that doesn't make logical sense. I'm
not saying outright that it isn't the case - maybe I'm misinterpreting
or misunderstanding something here.
For one thing, commercial screen readers, by the very nature and
definition of the term, are closed-source, and thus any methods of
access would be kept a closely guarded secret. Let's face it - they
would know that competitors would be dangerous to the future of their
own operation, especially given the price tag. This is true for most
large companies, why should screen reading manufacturers be any different?
Secondly, NVDA uses open-source components to provide access to braille
and in-built speech (I'm referring of course to ESpeak), and
closed-source but publicly documented API's to provide accessibility
communication between system, applications and user. Commercial screen
readers need separate drivers that chain onto the video drivers and
access screen content that way. To me, that suggests that the way NVDA
works is totally different than its commercial predecessors.
Which is more reliable is, of course, subject to opinion. As far as I am
aware, each method will have its own advantages and disadvantages, but
that's another discussion entirely.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 06:56 PM, Gene wrote:
> The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying assumption
> of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be
> provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay
> for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind
> people would be if this had been followed throughout history?
> In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical matter, it
> isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it
> for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.
> NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere
> near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in
> competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and
> experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all
> this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the
> very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it
> is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually,
> role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Cristóbal <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?
>
> He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own
> hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming
> abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own
> heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.
>
> Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a
> solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack
> of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow
> through on stuff. Whatever.
>
> But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it
> sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for
> access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger
> issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential
> process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.
>
> Cristóbal
>
> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Darren
> Harris via Groups.Io
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But
> the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry
> but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!
>
>
> On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...
> <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>> wrote:
>
>     Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.
>
>     Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.
>
>     Cristóbal
>
>     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>     <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>     *Darren Harris via Groups.Io
>     *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
>     I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve
>     captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!
>
>
>     On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...
>     <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>> wrote:
>
>         The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless”
>         computer.
>
>         I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some
>         stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.
>
>         But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor
>         connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.
>
>         So for most folks, that is a good solution.
>
>         Glenn
>
>         It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally
>         have a monitor connected to it.
>
>         *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>         <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>         *Desert Moon
>         *Sent:* Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
>         Hello All,
>
>         When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the
>         Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's
>         on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
>         --
>         Desert
>
>



-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Gene,


I think you have to examine each item on a case by case basis.  For example, the talking microwave ovens that cost 4 times what the same non talking version might be considered exploitative. A technician once told me that to make a microwave talk probably adds about 20 dollars to the cost.  Even if you allowed for a 100% mark up that would only make the average talking microwave about 100 or 150 dollars rather than over 300 dollars.


However, paying a few dollars monthly like with captcha be gone is hardly a huge burden even to those on fixed income.



On 9/24/2018 1:56 PM, Gene wrote:
The problem isn't just with this one service.  The underlying assumption of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind people would be if this had been followed throughout history? 
 
In an ideal world, this might be the case.  But as a practical matter, it isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable. 
 
NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually, role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Cristóbal
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?

He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.

Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow through on stuff. Whatever.

But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.

 

 

 

Cristóbal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...> wrote:

Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.

Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.

 

Cristóbal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...> wrote:

The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless” computer.

I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.

But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.

So for most folks, that is a good solution.

 

Glenn

It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally have a monitor connected to it.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Desert Moon
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Hello All,

When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
--
Desert


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Rob Hudson
 

Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@roadrunner.com> wrote:
That's two for two today. The only thing I think was kind of bad about
the way this happened is that the original developer of this program
didn't tell anyone that he was discontinuing the service/software.
That particular developer is famous for that particular trait. I fear the same thing will happen with NVDA remote, QRead and anything else he has up.


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Gene,


That's two for two today.  The only thing I think was kind of bad about the way this happened is that the original developer of this program didn't tell anyone that he was discontinuing the service/software. It was similar to what happened at Webvisum.  One day it was there, and the next it wasn't.  Unlike James Scholes who tried to revitalize the Webvisum add on and actually extended its life for a year or so, when it became too much of a problem for him to try tackling, he let it be known that he simply didn't have the means/resources to continue to make Webvisum compatible with later versions of Firefox. That is all you can expect of people; he tried and after a time just couldn't do it and he made sure that people knew he had tried and couldn't continue.  That's all anyone can ask.



On 9/24/2018 1:40 PM, Gene wrote:
Whether it was more expensive than it should have been is one question.  But being blind may cost you some money because you may need a service that you need to pay for.  Ideally, you would get such services for free but this is not an ideal world and assuming that someone charging for something is exploiting you is not reasonable nor valid logic.  It depends. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...> wrote:

The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless” computer.

I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.

But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.

So for most folks, that is a good solution.

 

Glenn

It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally have a monitor connected to it.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Desert Moon
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Hello All,

When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
--
Desert


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Gene
 

I think the person who wrote the first message expressing unwillingness hadn't considered that the password wouldn't be shown.  Of course, that person may comment on that if he/she wishes.  That being the case, as the song from West Side Story says, "You're well protected."
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Hey Gene,


Mark this a red letter day; I totally agree with your sentiments.



On 9/24/2018 1:33 PM, Gene wrote:
I assume that in general, such people don't intend to do harm.  But I still would not show or share personal information wit them unless there were no alternative.  Hiding your password should be adequate protection.  But just as I don't assume that most volunteeers at the service would do me harm, I'm not going to assume that none of them will. 
If it is ever necessary to disclose personal information, I would disclose only what is necessary and nothing more.
 
Aside from that, I'm not sure using a service like this to solve a captcha would work.  You may want to comment on the clarity of what you see when someone sends a camera image of a screen to someone.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 02:55 AM, Richard Bartholomew wrote:
Also, you are placing a lot of faith in someone who will probably be able to see your logon details as well as the captcha!
Well, for myself, as a volunteer for Be My Eyes, I know very well both what the formal rules are (which would forbid such unethical behavior) and the informal rules are (which would forbid such unethical behavior).

Also, as has been pointed out, passwords themselves are virtually never shown by default, and I can't imagine there's any blind individual who would frequently wish to turn on the show password feature where it is available.

It is one thing to be cautious and another to be paranoid.  There is no reason to believe that people volunteering to assist in this way are doing so to do you harm.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Emojis on windows 10

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi guys


I was looking through when support for emojis came in with NVDA I noted
it was nvda 2018.3 for support for windows 10. I was wondering if there
had to be a certain version number of windows? I noted it worked on my
windows 10 version 1803 machine does it work on any earlier versions of
windows 10 or 8 etc.


I was just putting together a tutorial on inserting them into your
document etc.

I was going to add it in if i knew it went lower in windows or if there
is a minimum for it to work with.


I was just putting it together for people who might know or not it has
come in for new users of NVDA etc.


Gene nz


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Ron Canazzi
 

Hey Gene,


Mark this a red letter day; I totally agree with your sentiments.



On 9/24/2018 1:33 PM, Gene wrote:
I assume that in general, such people don't intend to do harm.  But I still would not show or share personal information wit them unless there were no alternative.  Hiding your password should be adequate protection.  But just as I don't assume that most volunteeers at the service would do me harm, I'm not going to assume that none of them will. 
If it is ever necessary to disclose personal information, I would disclose only what is necessary and nothing more.
 
Aside from that, I'm not sure using a service like this to solve a captcha would work.  You may want to comment on the clarity of what you see when someone sends a camera image of a screen to someone.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 02:55 AM, Richard Bartholomew wrote:
Also, you are placing a lot of faith in someone who will probably be able to see your logon details as well as the captcha!
Well, for myself, as a volunteer for Be My Eyes, I know very well both what the formal rules are (which would forbid such unethical behavior) and the informal rules are (which would forbid such unethical behavior).

Also, as has been pointed out, passwords themselves are virtually never shown by default, and I can't imagine there's any blind individual who would frequently wish to turn on the show password feature where it is available.

It is one thing to be cautious and another to be paranoid.  There is no reason to believe that people volunteering to assist in this way are doing so to do you harm.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


NDVDA and iTunes with current alpha builds

Lino Morales
 

How is iTunes 12.9 working with the alpha builds of NVDA? Thanks.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: Ivona NVDA add-ons

 

I would be interested in this as well.





On 9/24/2018 10:13 PM, Lino Morales wrote:

Hi. Are their Ivona voices packaged as NVDA add-ons still available? If so what’s the URL and how much do they cost in USD? Thanks.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Ivona NVDA add-ons

Lino Morales
 

Hi. Are their Ivona voices packaged as NVDA add-ons still available? If so what’s the URL and how much do they cost in USD? Thanks.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: I have a couple addons that are several years old that I want to keep, so I'm guessing I shouldn't update NVDA at this time...

 

Looking at your situation, unless those add-ons are updated, you can't update. That might become an issue soon.


I do not recall if you run Windows 10 or not. If you do, you might have issues. If not, no really big issues.





On 9/24/2018 7:35 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
Hey,


I've been hearing a lot over the grapevine about issues with the latest 
NVDA being incompatible with various addons due to changes, and I have a 
couple synth addons that are several years old, as well as an old 
version of the Emoticons addon. I've been pretty anxious about messing 
with computer stuff lately, and the last time I went to update an addon 
I had to remove it from the Appdata because uninstalling it in NVDA 
didn't work. I haven't updated since 2018.1 and part of me is scared to...





NVDA and Focus Blue 5th

E.T.
 

I run a Windows 7 virtual machine with the latest NVDA on a Mac. I need to install a driver for the display but it seems not to install. The dialog shows the installation progress then closes without telling me what the end result was. In the NVDA settings, the Focus is not in the list of displays to choose from. Can someone offers some ideas here? Thanks.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
Ancient.Aliens@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Michael Munn
 

I'm glad that NVDA is a free screen reader. Unlike the other conmercial screem reader NVDA allowed user to develop on their own. This is a good thing. Also NVDA uses the popular python programming.programming language. This is a great programming language


Re: Toggling On and Off Format Documents #addonrelease

Quentin Christensen
 

Note that even if you did toggle off reporting elements like headings and links, they will still "work".  As in, you can still press H or 1, or 2 etc to move to the next heading - NVDA will just read the text and not report that it is a heading, and you can still use the elements list.

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 3:05 AM David Kingsbury <davidkingsbury77@...> wrote:
OK, I guess that makes sense. I would never want to toggle off the things in the elements group (headings, links, etc.).



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: NVDA 2018.3 running slow in Windows 7

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Cearbhall,

It's entirely possible that I wasn't paying enough attention recently, but the main issue with Firefox that I was aware of was the one with 32-bit versions crashing under NVDA 2018.3 which was why we released 2018.3.1.

If Firefox is working but slow, and your user is running NVDA 2018.3.1, that's a different issue.

I'd try the usual things first - ensure the computer has been rebooted since installing NVDA, try restarting NVDA with add-ons disabled.  Assuming you've done all that, a copy of the log, ideally at debug level, might shed some light on what's going on.

In terms of which version to use, the latest version SHOULD be fine, as far as I know.  It's what I'm using although I don't use my Windows 7 machine all the time (and even then, it's 64-bit).

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 3:56 AM Cearbhall O'Meadhra <cearbhall.omeadhra@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin et al,

 

A colleague reported today that the Latest Firefox is running very slow when she have NVDA running in Windows 7. She has good eyesight and finds that Firefox runs smoothly and snappily when NVDA is not running.

 

Is this the issue that has been reported recently?

 

If so, what version of Firefox should she run with Windows 7 and what version of NVDA would be recommended also.

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Gene
 

Those who know more technically may wish to comment but object navigation, as I understand it, was originally implemented because NVDA couldn't have a feature like the JAWS cursor because of how it got information from the screen.  Somehow later, flat screen review was added so the equivalent of the JAWS cursor was added.  But object navigation allowed certain programs to be used that other screen-readers couldn't work with at the time, at least not without scripting, if then, I don't know if scripting could have done it. 
 
At times, the limitations of a screen-reader may actuallly result in it having certain unique abilities even though the feature introduced to cope with the limitation may be harder to understand and may be used by fewer people. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 7:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Hi Gene,
I do see what you mean. And you're right when you mention Ford and NASA
as well. As someone interested in the concept of time travel, that opens
up a whole new sector of interesting other branches to explore that I
never thought of!
I guess my main points are:
1. Commercial screen readers are not the be-all and end-all of NVDA.
2. Time travel is an interesting concept.
Of course, they are both opinions rather than fact, and practically you
are correct in that they are useless and meaningless questions in
day-to-day life, and meaningless speculations when you're looking for
factual data. But I do find it very interesting to explore all the same.
The factual data as I know it is: I've used NVDA for five years, I will
continue to use it, I am very thankful for it, it's stable, it suits my
purposes well, and I haven't had to touch another screen reader since.
What was slightly daunting at first was the learning curve, but that's
to be expected with anything new, regardless of person or field.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 11:38 PM, Gene wrote:
> I'm not sure what your point is.  If NVDA had been around as long as
> other screen-readers, I don't know what the developers might have done
> But I don't think the question has a meaningful answer. Would someone
> other than Henry Ford have built a better mass production automobile if
> someone else had had the idea and the first place?  If NASA had hired
> this or that other person, would the Apollo spaceship have been built
> better?  It is more likely that the for profit screen-readers would have
> inovated more and faster simply because they have much larger
> development staffs in general.
> The reason NVDA is free and cost so much less to develop is because
> those working on it did so either as volunteers or for minimum wage. 
> Somewhere, someone pays for everything somehow.  You know, I would
> imagine, the expression, there is no free lunch.  In the case of NVDA,
> costs were borne by the developers and by grants and contributions.
> My point is that NVDA was developed after decades of development and
> experience that demonstrate what approaches work well or are the best
> for various things.  That made it easier for the NVDA developers to
> design things to make their screen-reader work with what was available
> in new versions of Windows technically.  They didn’t have a lot of old
> legacy code and methodology and they didn't have to reinvent approaches
> that had already been developed.  There are advantages to being new and
> that's another reason I say your question doesn't have a meaningful
> answer.  NVDA could take the extensive legacy from other screen-readers
> of what works well and concentrate on innovating from there.  This made
> the NVDA developers able to develop a high quality screen-reader with a
> much smaller staff.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Damien Garwood <mailto:damien@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 2:10 PM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> Hi,
> Aha, I see what you mean. It just so happens that commercial screen
> readers had these ideas first and NVDA saw how useful they were and
> implemented them.
> On the other hand, I can't help but wonder what original ideas NVDA
> might have come up with if it were older that were actually better than
> what the commercial screen readers ever did? Of course it would have
> taken a lot more design, but I'm sure Mick and Jamie are capable enough
> that they could have done as good as, if not better than, the commercial
> ones, regardless of when it was built.
> Cheers,
> Damien.
>
> On 24/09/2018 07:50 PM, Gene wrote:
>  > I'm nnot talking about exact methods and I don't know how proprietary
>  > they are or how generally known such methods are.  I'm talking about
>  > ways of doing things such as MSAA which is now largely replaced as I
>  > understand it by UIA and techniques that are in public view. Quick
>  > navigation keys when using browse mode, b for button, h for heading etc.
>  > aren't proprietary and anyone can use a commercial screen-reader that
>  > uses them and see them described in documentation.  Concepts like the
>  > JAWS cursor or the Window-eyes mouse pointer are in plain view.
>  > Commands for seeing formatting information is another example.
>  > My point is that a lot of work and development went into for profit
>  > screen-readers which is in plain view and NVDA wouldn't be anywhere near
>  > as advanced as it is if these decades of work hadn't been done.
>  > Gene
>  > ----- Original Message -----
>  > *From:* Damien Garwood <mailto:damien@...>
>  > *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 1:16 PM
>  > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  >
>  > Hi Gene,
>  > How can we be sure that NVDA is built on the same foundations as
>  > commercial screen readers? To me, that doesn't make logical sense. I'm
>  > not saying outright that it isn't the case - maybe I'm misinterpreting
>  > or misunderstanding something here.
>  > For one thing, commercial screen readers, by the very nature and
>  > definition of the term, are closed-source, and thus any methods of
>  > access would be kept a closely guarded secret. Let's face it - they
>  > would know that competitors would be dangerous to the future of their
>  > own operation, especially given the price tag. This is true for most
>  > large companies, why should screen reading manufacturers be any
> different?
>  > Secondly, NVDA uses open-source components to provide access to braille
>  > and in-built speech (I'm referring of course to ESpeak), and
>  > closed-source but publicly documented API's to provide accessibility
>  > communication between system, applications and user. Commercial screen
>  > readers need separate drivers that chain onto the video drivers and
>  > access screen content that way. To me, that suggests that the way NVDA
>  > works is totally different than its commercial predecessors.
>  > Which is more reliable is, of course, subject to opinion. As far as I am
>  > aware, each method will have its own advantages and disadvantages, but
>  > that's another discussion entirely.
>  > Cheers,
>  > Damien.
>  >
>  > On 24/09/2018 06:56 PM, Gene wrote:
>  >  > The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying
> assumption
>  >  > of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be
>  >  > provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay
>  >  > for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where
> blind
>  > > people would be if this had been followed throughout history?
>  > > In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical
> matter, it
>  >  > isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it
>  >  > for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.
>  >  > NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be
> anywhere
>  >  > near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in
>  >  > competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of
> innovation and
>  >  > experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built
> on all
>  >  > this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the
>  >  > very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it
>  >  > is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital
> actually,
>  >  > role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
>  >  > Gene
>  >  > ----- Original Message -----
>  >  > *From:* Cristóbal <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>
>  > > *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
>  >  > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  > >
>  >  > This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?
>  >  >
>  >  > He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own
>  >  > hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming
>  >  > abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of
> their own
>  >  > heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.
>  >  >
>  >  > Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a
>  >  > solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it
> lack
>  >  > of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow
>  >  > through on stuff. Whatever.
>  > >
>  >  > But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it
>  >  > sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these
> workarounds for
>  >  > access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger
>  >  > issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential
>  >  > process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it
> goes.
>  > >
>  >  > Cristóbal
>  >  >
>  >  > *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of *Darren
>  >  > Harris via Groups.Io
>  >  > *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
>  >  > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  > >
>  >  > No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But
>  >  > the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m
> sorry
>  >  > but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!
>  >  >
>  > >
>  >  > On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...
> <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>
>  > <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>
>  > > <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>> wrote:
>  >  >
>  >  >     Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.
>  >  >
>  > >     Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.
>  >  >
>  >  > Cristóbal
>  > >
>  >  >     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > > <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>  >  >     *Darren Harris via Groups.Io
>  >  >     *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
>  >  >     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  > >
>  >  >     I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve
>  >  > captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!
>  > >
>  >  >
>  >  >     On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn
> <glenn.ervin@... <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
>  > <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
>  > > <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>> wrote:
>  >  >
>  > >         The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless”
>  >  > computer.
>  > >
>  >  >         I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some
>  > >         stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.
>  >  >
>  > >         But I have used that app on other computers that I had a
> monitor
>  > >         connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.
>  >  >
>  > >         So for most folks, that is a good solution.
>  >  >
>  > >         Glenn
>  > >
>  >  >         It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t
> normally
>  > >         have a monitor connected to it.
>  >  >
>  >  > *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > > <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>  >  > *Desert Moon
>  >  > *Sent:* Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
>  > >         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  > >
>  >  >         Hello All,
>  >  >
>  > >         When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the
>  > >         Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's
>  > >         on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
>  > >         --
>  > >         Desert
>  > >
>  >  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>
>
>



Re: Keeping NVDA from saying "selected" after switching to a new gridcell?

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Brandon,

Following up on your issue with NVDA reading "selected" in every cell in Google Sheets, one of our contributors, Leonard, has created a test build of NVDA aiming to address this.  In the issue I created at: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8766#issuecomment-423949233 he has linked to a build, which you can download from: https://ci.appveyor.com/api/buildjobs/5ucc52tt3yooc49u/artifacts/output%2Fnvda_snapshot_try-tableCell-16088%2C7e5ee484.exe - it behaves essentially the same as a regular version of NVDA, and for the purposes of testing, you should be able to select "continue" rather than installing it to check how it reads in Google sheets.

Please let me know (or ideally, reply to that issue) how you go and whether it resolves the issue.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 9:24 PM Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
Hi Brandon,

I don't have an answer for you, except to say that I can reproduce the same thing, and I've filed an issue for it on our issue tracker: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8766

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 8:52 PM Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs@...> wrote:
Hello,
GSheets has a new Braille View that uses aria grid. I would love to use this mode with NVDA, but every time I move to a new cell, NVDA says: "selected" after the cell contents and before the coords.
how do I turn this "selected" off? I don't need to know the cell I'm on is selected.
The only time when the cell under my cursor is not selected is when there is a multiselect mode where you press space to select cells and arrow keys to move around the cells. I don't see this very often, so would prefer "select" is off by default.
Thanks,



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: I have a couple addons that are several years old that I want to keep, so I'm guessing I shouldn't update NVDA at this time...

Gene
 

Is there any reason to update?  Just because an update, I'm not talking about security updates, but a program update that introduces new features occurs, that doesn't mean you have to update.  Usually, you can see information about what is new in a program on the web site.  People would save themselves trouble, perhaps a lot of trouble over time, if they don't just reflexively update. 
 
In terms of NVDA, there are some major technical changes coming and being worked on in the program.  Many add-ons that work currently won't work in future versions unless they are updated by the developers.  I don't know how many will be.  I don't know when this will occur to a significant extent.  it already has regarding certain add-ons. 
 
I would suggest reading about what's new and deciding whether to update NVDA, not just updating because there is one. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 6:35 PM
Subject: [nvda] I have a couple addons that are several years old that I want to keep, so I'm guessing I shouldn't update NVDA at this time...

Hey,


I've been hearing a lot over the grapevine about issues with the latest
NVDA being incompatible with various addons due to changes, and I have a
couple synth addons that are several years old, as well as an old
version of the Emoticons addon. I've been pretty anxious about messing
with computer stuff lately, and the last time I went to update an addon
I had to remove it from the Appdata because uninstalling it in NVDA
didn't work. I haven't updated since 2018.1 and part of me is scared to...