Date   

Re: I have a couple addons that are several years old that I want to keep, so I'm guessing I shouldn't update NVDA at this time...

Gene
 

Is there any reason to update?  Just because an update, I'm not talking about security updates, but a program update that introduces new features occurs, that doesn't mean you have to update.  Usually, you can see information about what is new in a program on the web site.  People would save themselves trouble, perhaps a lot of trouble over time, if they don't just reflexively update. 
 
In terms of NVDA, there are some major technical changes coming and being worked on in the program.  Many add-ons that work currently won't work in future versions unless they are updated by the developers.  I don't know how many will be.  I don't know when this will occur to a significant extent.  it already has regarding certain add-ons. 
 
I would suggest reading about what's new and deciding whether to update NVDA, not just updating because there is one. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 6:35 PM
Subject: [nvda] I have a couple addons that are several years old that I want to keep, so I'm guessing I shouldn't update NVDA at this time...

Hey,


I've been hearing a lot over the grapevine about issues with the latest
NVDA being incompatible with various addons due to changes, and I have a
couple synth addons that are several years old, as well as an old
version of the Emoticons addon. I've been pretty anxious about messing
with computer stuff lately, and the last time I went to update an addon
I had to remove it from the Appdata because uninstalling it in NVDA
didn't work. I haven't updated since 2018.1 and part of me is scared to...





Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Well to be honest being an entitled person all the time doesn't always give you every right anyway and doesn't always work to your advantage.

Sure I will take and fight for my rights but not everything is free.

My aunt works for a medical centre and some people that come from places where they get x right expect it to be global when it may not be.

Some with various disabilities may assume they automatically will get  something which will also mean they won't need to pay, fill out anything and just get it.

I am entitled to a lot of things.

I have to pay for a lot of things and some of my entitlements have restrictions which mean sure I have my rights andI am entitled to x but I have obligations.

Ie when going oversease I must tell the government where I am in order to see if I can continue recieving money for that duration and there are clear limits.

There are horror stories where people have blatently assumed, or did it alegally or simply had an issue where their entitlements or issues with them have not only gotten in the way but have resulted in issues.

For me, I had one such issue, my benifits were stopped because of a computer crash.

It was fixed but I had to ask them about it.

To say because I am blind I am entitled to my rights is fine.

Its not fine to say that I am entitled to be first, I am disabled there for I will get x for nothing because I am and its silly to think otherwise.

I sadly have family that take things at face value.

In their mind everything is a static and not fluid object.

Their entire life is a blanket statement.

True some of those things can become static if I don't watch out and true some stuff does not change for long periods but they do change.

For these kind of people though you see one thing once and assume it will stay there and not move.

On 9/25/2018 5:56 AM, Gene wrote:
The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying assumption of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay for something sighted people don't pay for. Can you imagine where blind people would be if this had been followed throughout history?

In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical matter, it isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.

NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and experience in how to access the computer efficiently. NVDA built on all this experience. That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the very important need it fills. but if people don't acknowledge what it is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually, role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Cristóbal
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?


This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?

He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar programming abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.

Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow through on stuff. Whatever.

But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.




Cristóbal


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?


No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@gmail.com> wrote:

Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.

Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.


Cristóbal


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?


I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov> wrote:

The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless” computer.

I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.

But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.

So for most folks, that is a good solution.


Glenn

It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally have a monitor connected to it.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Desert Moon
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?


Hello All,

When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
--
Desert





Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Damien Garwood <damien@...>
 

Hi Gene,
I do see what you mean. And you're right when you mention Ford and NASA as well. As someone interested in the concept of time travel, that opens up a whole new sector of interesting other branches to explore that I never thought of!
I guess my main points are:
1. Commercial screen readers are not the be-all and end-all of NVDA.
2. Time travel is an interesting concept.
Of course, they are both opinions rather than fact, and practically you are correct in that they are useless and meaningless questions in day-to-day life, and meaningless speculations when you're looking for factual data. But I do find it very interesting to explore all the same.
The factual data as I know it is: I've used NVDA for five years, I will continue to use it, I am very thankful for it, it's stable, it suits my purposes well, and I haven't had to touch another screen reader since. What was slightly daunting at first was the learning curve, but that's to be expected with anything new, regardless of person or field.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 11:38 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm not sure what your point is.  If NVDA had been around as long as other screen-readers, I don't know what the developers might have done But I don't think the question has a meaningful answer. Would someone other than Henry Ford have built a better mass production automobile if someone else had had the idea and the first place?  If NASA had hired this or that other person, would the Apollo spaceship have been built better?  It is more likely that the for profit screen-readers would have inovated more and faster simply because they have much larger development staffs in general.
The reason NVDA is free and cost so much less to develop is because those working on it did so either as volunteers or for minimum wage. Somewhere, someone pays for everything somehow.  You know, I would imagine, the expression, there is no free lunch.  In the case of NVDA, costs were borne by the developers and by grants and contributions.
My point is that NVDA was developed after decades of development and experience that demonstrate what approaches work well or are the best for various things.  That made it easier for the NVDA developers to design things to make their screen-reader work with what was available in new versions of Windows technically.  They didn’t have a lot of old legacy code and methodology and they didn't have to reinvent approaches that had already been developed.  There are advantages to being new and that's another reason I say your question doesn't have a meaningful answer.  NVDA could take the extensive legacy from other screen-readers of what works well and concentrate on innovating from there.  This made the NVDA developers able to develop a high quality screen-reader with a much smaller staff.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Damien Garwood <mailto:damien@daygar.plus.com>
*Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 2:10 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
Hi,
Aha, I see what you mean. It just so happens that commercial screen
readers had these ideas first and NVDA saw how useful they were and
implemented them.
On the other hand, I can't help but wonder what original ideas NVDA
might have come up with if it were older that were actually better than
what the commercial screen readers ever did? Of course it would have
taken a lot more design, but I'm sure Mick and Jamie are capable enough
that they could have done as good as, if not better than, the commercial
ones, regardless of when it was built.
Cheers,
Damien.
On 24/09/2018 07:50 PM, Gene wrote:
> I'm nnot talking about exact methods and I don't know how proprietary
> they are or how generally known such methods are.  I'm talking about
> ways of doing things such as MSAA which is now largely replaced as I
> understand it by UIA and techniques that are in public view. Quick
> navigation keys when using browse mode, b for button, h for heading etc.
> aren't proprietary and anyone can use a commercial screen-reader that
> uses them and see them described in documentation.  Concepts like the
> JAWS cursor or the Window-eyes mouse pointer are in plain view.
> Commands for seeing formatting information is another example.
> My point is that a lot of work and development went into for profit
> screen-readers which is in plain view and NVDA wouldn't be anywhere near
> as advanced as it is if these decades of work hadn't been done.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Damien Garwood <mailto:damien@daygar.plus.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 1:16 PM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> Hi Gene,
> How can we be sure that NVDA is built on the same foundations as
> commercial screen readers? To me, that doesn't make logical sense. I'm
> not saying outright that it isn't the case - maybe I'm misinterpreting
> or misunderstanding something here.
> For one thing, commercial screen readers, by the very nature and
> definition of the term, are closed-source, and thus any methods of
> access would be kept a closely guarded secret. Let's face it - they
> would know that competitors would be dangerous to the future of their
> own operation, especially given the price tag. This is true for most
> large companies, why should screen reading manufacturers be any
different?
> Secondly, NVDA uses open-source components to provide access to braille
> and in-built speech (I'm referring of course to ESpeak), and
> closed-source but publicly documented API's to provide accessibility
> communication between system, applications and user. Commercial screen
> readers need separate drivers that chain onto the video drivers and
> access screen content that way. To me, that suggests that the way NVDA
> works is totally different than its commercial predecessors.
> Which is more reliable is, of course, subject to opinion. As far as I am
> aware, each method will have its own advantages and disadvantages, but
> that's another discussion entirely.
> Cheers,
> Damien.
>
> On 24/09/2018 06:56 PM, Gene wrote:
>  > The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying
assumption
>  > of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be
>  > provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay
>  > for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where
blind
> > people would be if this had been followed throughout history?
> > In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical
matter, it
>  > isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it
>  > for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.
>  > NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be
anywhere
>  > near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in
>  > competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of
innovation and
>  > experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built
on all
>  > this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the
>  > very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it
>  > is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital
actually,
>  > role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
>  > Gene
>  > ----- Original Message -----
>  > *From:* Cristóbal <mailto:cristobalmuli@gmail.com>
> > *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
>  > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
> >
>  > This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?
>  >
>  > He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own
>  > hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming
>  > abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of
their own
>  > heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.
>  >
>  > Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a
>  > solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it
lack
>  > of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow
>  > through on stuff. Whatever.
> >
>  > But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it
>  > sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these
workarounds for
>  > access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger
>  > issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential
>  > process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it
goes.
> >
>  > Cristóbal
>  >
>  > *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of *Darren
>  > Harris via Groups.Io
>  > *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
>  > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
> >
>  > No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But
>  > the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m
sorry
>  > but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!
>  >
> >
>  > On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@gmail.com
<mailto:cristobalmuli@gmail.com>
> <mailto:cristobalmuli@gmail.com>
> > <mailto:cristobalmuli@gmail.com>> wrote:
>  >
>  >     Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.
>  >
> >     Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.
>  >
>  > Cristóbal
> >
>  >     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> > <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>  >     *Darren Harris via Groups.Io
>  >     *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
>  >     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
> >
>  >     I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve
>  > captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!
> >
>  >
>  >     On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn
<glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov <mailto:glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov>
> <mailto:glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov>
> > <mailto:glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov>> wrote:
>  >
> >         The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless”
>  > computer.
> >
>  >         I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some
> >         stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.
>  >
> >         But I have used that app on other computers that I had a
monitor
> >         connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.
>  >
> >         So for most folks, that is a good solution.
>  >
> >         Glenn
> >
>  >         It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t
normally
> >         have a monitor connected to it.
>  >
>  > *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> > <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>  > *Desert Moon
>  > *Sent:* Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
> >         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
> >
>  >         Hello All,
>  >
> >         When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the
> >         Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's
> >         on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
> >         --
> >         Desert
> >
>  >
>
>
>


I have a couple addons that are several years old that I want to keep, so I'm guessing I shouldn't update NVDA at this time...

Sharni-Lee Ward
 

Hey,


I've been hearing a lot over the grapevine about issues with the latest
NVDA being incompatible with various addons due to changes, and I have a
couple synth addons that are several years old, as well as an old
version of the Emoticons addon. I've been pretty anxious about messing
with computer stuff lately, and the last time I went to update an addon
I had to remove it from the Appdata because uninstalling it in NVDA
didn't work. I haven't updated since 2018.1 and part of me is scared to...


NVDA sluggish and temporarily freezing when reading mail or text

Jaffar Sidek <jaffar.sidek10@...>
 

Hi Joseph and quentin.  I have noticed that when I open up an email message on Thunderbird, NVDA slows down and genearally takes some time to respond when I am scrolling through my messages.  I have also noticed that when reading text on both local files and on the internet, NVDA now freezes slightly more frequently then it used to.  In short,  NVDA either slowing down or freezing up happens far more frequently now.

Here is the log I copied for your atention.  Cheers!


INFO - __main__ (12:03:38.164):
Starting NVDA
INFO - core.main (12:03:38.380):
Config dir: C:\Users\Administrator\AppData\Roaming\nvda
INFO - config.ConfigManager._loadConfig (12:03:38.380):
Loading config: C:\Users\Administrator\AppData\Roaming\nvda\nvda.ini
INFO - core.main (12:03:38.476):
NVDA version 2018.3.1
INFO - core.main (12:03:38.477):
Using Windows version 10.0.17134 workstation
INFO - core.main (12:03:38.477):
Using Python version 2.7.15 (v2.7.15:ca079a3ea3, Apr 30 2018, 16:22:17) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)]
INFO - core.main (12:03:38.477):
Using comtypes version 1.1.3
INFO - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (12:03:39.224):
Loaded synthDriver eloquence
INFO - core.main (12:03:39.224):
Using wx version 4.0.3 msw (phoenix) wxWidgets 3.0.5
INFO - brailleInput.initialize (12:03:39.226):
Braille input initialized
INFO - braille.initialize (12:03:39.226):
Using liblouis version 3.6.0
INFO - braille.BrailleHandler.setDisplayByName (12:03:39.227):
Loaded braille display driver noBraille, current display has 0 cells.
INFO - _UIAHandler.UIAHandler.MTAThreadFunc (12:03:39.348):
UIAutomation: IUIAutomation5
ERROR - globalPluginHandler.initialize (12:03:39.950):
Error initializing global plugin <class 'globalPlugins.remoteClient.GlobalPlugin'>
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "globalPluginHandler.pyo", line 32, in initialize
  File "C:\Users\Administrator\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\remote\globalPlugins\remoteClient\__init__.py", line 56, in __init__
  File "C:\Users\Administrator\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\remote\globalPlugins\remoteClient\__init__.py", line 104, in create_menu
AttributeError: 'MenuItem' object has no attribute 'SetCheckable'
INFO - core.main (12:03:39.954):
NVDA initialized
INFO - updateCheck.AutoUpdateChecker._started (12:03:39.996):
Performing automatic update check
ERROR - scriptHandler.executeScript (14:54:52.210):
error executing script: <bound method FormsComponent.script_onLocationChange of <appModules.devenv.FormsComponent object at 0x04B8FC70>> with gesture u'down arrow'
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "scriptHandler.pyo", line 187, in executeScript
  File "C:\Users\Administrator\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\visualStudio\appModules\devenv.py", line 808, in script_onLocationChange
AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'group'
ERROR - NVDAObjects.behaviors.LiveText._monitor (15:09:53.395):
Error getting initial lines
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "NVDAObjects\behaviors.pyo", line 260, in _monitor
  File "NVDAObjects\window\winConsole.pyo", line 49, in _getTextLines
  File "winConsoleHandler.pyo", line 121, in getConsoleVisibleLines
  File "wincon.pyo", line 70, in GetConsoleScreenBufferInfo
WindowsError: [Error 6] The handle is invalid.
ERROR - unhandled exception (15:09:55.701):
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "_ctypes/callbacks.c", line 315, in 'calling callback function'
  File "winInputHook.pyo", line 45, in keyboardHook
  File "keyboardHandler.pyo", line 195, in internal_keyDownEvent
AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'helperLocalBindingHandle'
INFO - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (06:15:56.283):
Loaded synthDriver oneCore
INFO - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (06:17:10.148):
Loaded synthDriver oldeloquence
WARNING - stdout (06:17:51.161):
hooked waveOutOpen
WARNING - stdout (06:17:51.161):
hooked waveOutClose
INFO - speechDictHandler.dictFormatUpgrade._doSynthVoiceDictBackupAndMove (06:17:51.411):
Upgrading voice dictionaries for sapi5
INFO - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (06:17:51.413):
Loaded synthDriver sapi5
INFO - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (06:19:06.539):
Loaded synthDriver dectalk
INFO - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (06:20:07.506):
Loaded synthDriver eloquence
INFO - globalCommands.GlobalCommands.script_navigatorObject_devInfo (06:55:03.552):
Developer info for navigator object:
name: None
role: ROLE_PARAGRAPH
states:
isFocusable: False
hasFocus: False
Python object: <NVDAObjects.IAccessible.mozilla.Mozilla object at 0x0578F250>
Python class mro: (<class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.mozilla.Mozilla'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.ia2Web.Ia2Web'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.IAccessible'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.window.Window'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObject'>, <class 'documentBase.TextContainerObject'>, <class 'baseObject.ScriptableObject'>, <class 'baseObject.AutoPropertyObject'>, <type 'object'>)
description: u''
location: RectLTWH(left=8, top=270, width=1164, height=18)
value: None
appModule: <'thunderbird' (appName u'thunderbird', process ID 11712) at address 50c67f0>
appModule.productName: u'Thunderbird'
appModule.productVersion: u'52.9.1'
TextInfo: <class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.IA2TextTextInfo'>
windowHandle: 9306250L
windowClassName: u'MozillaWindowClass'
windowControlID: 0
windowStyle: 399441920
windowThreadID: 9716
windowText: u'Re: [nvda] NVDA 2018.3 running slow in Windows 7 - All Mail - jaffar.sidek10@gmail.com - Mozilla Thunderbird'
displayText: u''
IAccessibleObject: <POINTER(IAccessible2) ptr=0xd60283c at 4f6b710>
IAccessibleChildID: 0
IAccessible event parameters: windowHandle=9306250, objectID=-4, childID=-4740
IAccessible accName: None
IAccessible accRole: u'p'
IAccessible accState:  (0)
IAccessible accDescription: u''
IAccessible accValue: None
IAccessible2 windowHandle: 9306250
IAccessible2 uniqueID: -4740
IAccessible2 role: IA2_ROLE_PARAGRAPH
IAccessible2 states: IA2_STATE_SELECTABLE_TEXT, IA2_STATE_OPAQUE (5120)
IAccessible2 attributes: u'margin-left:0px;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;formatting:block;margin-right:0px;tag:p;class:MsoNormal;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:block;'


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Gene
 

I'm not sure what your point is.  If NVDA had been around as long as other screen-readers, I don't know what the developers might have done But I don't think the question has a meaningful answer.  Would someone other than Henry Ford have built a better mass production automobile if someone else had had the idea and the first place?  If NASA had hired this or that other person, would the Apollo spaceship have been built better?  It is more likely that the for profit screen-readers would have inovated more and faster simply because they have much larger development staffs in general. 
 
The reason NVDA is free and cost so much less to develop is because those working on it did so either as volunteers or for minimum wage.  Somewhere, someone pays for everything somehow.  You know, I would imagine, the expression, there is no free lunch.  In the case of NVDA, costs were borne by the developers and by grants and contributions. 
 
My point is that NVDA was developed after decades of development and experience that demonstrate what approaches work well or are the best for various things.  That made it easier for the NVDA developers to design things to make their screen-reader work with what was available in new versions of Windows technically.  They didn’t have a lot of old legacy code and methodology and they didn't have to reinvent approaches that had already been developed.  There are advantages to being new and that's another reason I say your question doesn't have a meaningful answer.  NVDA could take the extensive legacy from other screen-readers of what works well and concentrate on innovating from there.  This made the NVDA developers able to develop a high quality screen-reader with a much smaller staff.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Hi,
Aha, I see what you mean. It just so happens that commercial screen
readers had these ideas first and NVDA saw how useful they were and
implemented them.
On the other hand, I can't help but wonder what original ideas NVDA
might have come up with if it were older that were actually better than
what the commercial screen readers ever did? Of course it would have
taken a lot more design, but I'm sure Mick and Jamie are capable enough
that they could have done as good as, if not better than, the commercial
ones, regardless of when it was built.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 07:50 PM, Gene wrote:
> I'm nnot talking about exact methods and I don't know how proprietary
> they are or how generally known such methods are.  I'm talking about
> ways of doing things such as MSAA which is now largely replaced as I
> understand it by UIA and techniques that are in public view.  Quick
> navigation keys when using browse mode, b for button, h for heading etc.
> aren't proprietary and anyone can use a commercial screen-reader that
> uses them and see them described in documentation.  Concepts like the
> JAWS cursor or the Window-eyes mouse pointer are in plain view. 
> Commands for seeing formatting information is another example.
> My point is that a lot of work and development went into for profit
> screen-readers which is in plain view and NVDA wouldn't be anywhere near
> as advanced as it is if these decades of work hadn't been done.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Damien Garwood <mailto:damien@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 1:16 PM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> Hi Gene,
> How can we be sure that NVDA is built on the same foundations as
> commercial screen readers? To me, that doesn't make logical sense. I'm
> not saying outright that it isn't the case - maybe I'm misinterpreting
> or misunderstanding something here.
> For one thing, commercial screen readers, by the very nature and
> definition of the term, are closed-source, and thus any methods of
> access would be kept a closely guarded secret. Let's face it - they
> would know that competitors would be dangerous to the future of their
> own operation, especially given the price tag. This is true for most
> large companies, why should screen reading manufacturers be any different?
> Secondly, NVDA uses open-source components to provide access to braille
> and in-built speech (I'm referring of course to ESpeak), and
> closed-source but publicly documented API's to provide accessibility
> communication between system, applications and user. Commercial screen
> readers need separate drivers that chain onto the video drivers and
> access screen content that way. To me, that suggests that the way NVDA
> works is totally different than its commercial predecessors.
> Which is more reliable is, of course, subject to opinion. As far as I am
> aware, each method will have its own advantages and disadvantages, but
> that's another discussion entirely.
> Cheers,
> Damien.
>
> On 24/09/2018 06:56 PM, Gene wrote:
>  > The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying assumption
>  > of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be
>  > provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay
>  > for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind
>  > people would be if this had been followed throughout history?
>  > In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical matter, it
>  > isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it
>  > for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.
>  > NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere
>  > near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in
>  > competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and
>  > experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all
>  > this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the
>  > very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it
>  > is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually,
>  > role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
>  > Gene
>  > ----- Original Message -----
>  > *From:* Cristóbal <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>
>  > *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
>  > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  >
>  > This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?
>  >
>  > He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own
>  > hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming
>  > abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own
>  > heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.
>  >
>  > Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a
>  > solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack
>  > of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow
>  > through on stuff. Whatever.
>  >
>  > But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it
>  > sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for
>  > access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger
>  > issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential
>  > process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.
>  >
>  > Cristóbal
>  >
>  > *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of *Darren
>  > Harris via Groups.Io
>  > *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
>  > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  >
>  > No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But
>  > the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry
>  > but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!
>  >
>  >
>  > On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...
> <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>
>  > <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>> wrote:
>  >
>  >     Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.
>  >
>  >     Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.
>  >
>  > Cristóbal
>  >
>  >     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>  >     *Darren Harris via Groups.Io
>  >     *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
>  >     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  >
>  >     I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve
>  >     captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!
>  >
>  >
>  >     On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...
> <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
>  > <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>> wrote:
>  >
>  >         The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless”
>  > computer.
>  >
>  >         I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some
>  >         stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.
>  >
>  >         But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor
>  >         connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.
>  >
>  >         So for most folks, that is a good solution.
>  >
>  >         Glenn
>  >
>  >         It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally
>  >         have a monitor connected to it.
>  >
>  > *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>  >         *Desert Moon
>  >         *Sent:* Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
>  >         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  >
>  >         Hello All,
>  >
>  >         When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the
>  >         Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's
>  >         on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
>  >         --
>  >         Desert
>  >
>  >
>
>
>



Re: NVDA remote

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


I agree with you Brian.


At present i am using the patched version but also have the old version
as a backup.


The back up one was just in case the patched version did not work but it
does..


People have to remember also nvaccess is only a small team compared to
others in the field with resources.


Gene nzz

On 24/09/2018 8:45 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
This discussion seems to be flaring up a lot on here. It would save a
lot of this if people  in charge of add ons pointed people at Josephs
patched version for now.
What one has to remember is that the original was written by a team,
who collaborated under crowd funding to get the work done. Having done
it, the team was broken up. Now we are trying to get some of that team
to fix it to match new versions of nvda. Looking forward, this problem
is only going to get worse as Python 3 looms larger.

What is done about add ons where the authors have moved on is a much
bigger problem, which includes remote. That is what NV Access need to
solve. Admittedly the add ons are outside of their  realm of influence
in the main, but the changes that cause them to fail are their
responsibility so some effort by them needs to be made, in my view
ahead of the next major change in NVDA or people will not be able to
use new versions  productively any more.
it is also unfair to rely on Josephs good offices in this as he has
work to do and a life to live and people can easily burn out through
trying to do the right thing without support.
I wish I could help but do not have the skills.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Sky Mundell" <skyt@shaw.ca>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA remote


Absolutely right. Their should have been a new version of it now. If a
new version isn’t created, there is going to be an upwar for sure. I’m
wondering if these offers are truly loyal to NVDA enough to create a
new version of it?



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Inam Uddin via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 8:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA remote



Respected friend, as far as new remote addon is concern, it is not
available!

Thanks to Joseph Lee who patched old remote addon so it will work with
NVDA 2018.3.1

If you need it,

Please Click Here
<https://www.josephsl.net/files/nvdaaddons/remote-2.1wxPy4-1807.nvda-addon>

With regards from Inamuddin with the Skype ID:

Charlsdarwin1



It is nice to be im

portant but it is more important to be nice!

You can contact me via gmail:

Inamuddin09@gmail.com

Outlook:

Inam092@outlook.com

Yahoo:

Inamuddin2010@yahoo.ca

AOL:

Charlsdarwin1969@aol.com

Talk with me on Skype:

Charlsdarwin1

Follow me on my twitter ID:

www.twitter.com/charlsdarwin1

Call me on my cell no.:

+92-334-3348409





From: Tyler Wood <mailto:tcwood12@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 1:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA remote



Is the new remote out yet?

thanks





On 23-Sep-2018 5:03 PM, Mark wrote:

Hi all,

Can someone tell me if someone has the old remote with the old NVDA
and I have the new remote with the latest NVdA will this work

Or do you both have to use the new remote

Mark.

Tune in to the number one station on the web TAFN radio
http://tafn.org.uk/listen
Or for our catch up service on demand http://www.tafn.org.uk/on-demand
or for our upcoming weekly schedule
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Sent from Windows 10 Mail.
















Re: another puzzling seting - this time Winamp

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


If you are interested there is a tutorial on using winamp on my website at http://accessibilitycentral.net/nvda%20tutorials%20for%20other%20programs.html

Just after you go to the page jump down by headings until you get to the winamp tutorial.


But any how your play list box has to be ticked I think it is called. I also have my equalizer one etc on as well.


But to go between them use the CTRL key + tab key it will cycle you between the sections. When i get to the playlist i can then arrow down and up the list etc.


Gene nz



On 25/09/2018 3:11 AM, Giles Turnbull wrote:
Hi all,

I have another puzzling program issue, this time with Winamp.

I'm sure I've experienced this before,but I can't for the life of me remember how I sorted it out!

It relates to the Winamp 5.666 edition. I use it on my home laptop, my tablet computer and this new Dell laptop that I've got for university work.

For some reason I cannot navigate the playlist with NVDA. I suspect there is a setting that relates to how tracks are displayed, but I can't spot it in the preferences. The playlist window is definitely active.

If I move into the playlist I simply cannot navigate up and down the list. All NVDA says is “List.” I have a good 30 mp3s in the playlist and, even if I start a new playlist and then enqueue a further set of mp3s, I remain unable to navigate the playlist.

I didn't bring the Winamp 5.666 installer with me, unfortunately.

I installed the NVDA extended Winamp addon last night but that doesn't seem to have changed anything.

Any suggestions very welcome.

Giles


Re: another puzzling seting - this time Winamp

Lino Morales
 

Agree. I don’t remember who the add-on dev person or persons are. If any knows by all means pass that INFO along to us and also to the NVDA add-ons list.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Roger Stewart <paganus2@...>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 4:13:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] another puzzling seting - this time Winamp
 
There is already an add on for Winamp so this function should probably be added to it.

Roger









On 9/24/2018 2:07 PM, Lino Morales wrote:

Hi Jiles. Yeah that’s one NVDA needs to look into now that Winamp finally is making a come back possibly in October. Your right that NVDA does not read the list of tracks. I’m thinking an add-on suggestion should be submitted here.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Giles Turnbull <giles.turnbull@...>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 11:11:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] another puzzling seting - this time Winamp
 
Hi all,

I have another puzzling program issue, this time with Winamp.

I'm sure I've experienced this before,but I can't for the life of me remember how I sorted it out!

It relates to the Winamp 5.666 edition. I use it on my home laptop, my tablet computer and this new Dell laptop that I've got for university work.

For some reason I cannot navigate the playlist with NVDA. I suspect there is a setting that relates to how tracks are displayed, but I can't spot it in the preferences. The playlist window is definitely active.

If I move into the playlist I simply cannot navigate up and down the list. All NVDA says is “List.” I have a good 30 mp3s in the playlist and, even if I start a new playlist and then enqueue a further set of mp3s, I remain unable to navigate the playlist.

I didn't bring the Winamp 5.666 installer with me, unfortunately.

I installed the NVDA extended Winamp addon last night but that doesn't seem to have changed anything.

Any suggestions very welcome.

Giles



Re: another puzzling seting - this time Winamp

Roger Stewart
 

There is already an add on for Winamp so this function should probably be added to it.

Roger









On 9/24/2018 2:07 PM, Lino Morales wrote:

Hi Jiles. Yeah that’s one NVDA needs to look into now that Winamp finally is making a come back possibly in October. Your right that NVDA does not read the list of tracks. I’m thinking an add-on suggestion should be submitted here.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Giles Turnbull <giles.turnbull@...>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 11:11:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] another puzzling seting - this time Winamp
 
Hi all,

I have another puzzling program issue, this time with Winamp.

I'm sure I've experienced this before,but I can't for the life of me remember how I sorted it out!

It relates to the Winamp 5.666 edition. I use it on my home laptop, my tablet computer and this new Dell laptop that I've got for university work.

For some reason I cannot navigate the playlist with NVDA. I suspect there is a setting that relates to how tracks are displayed, but I can't spot it in the preferences. The playlist window is definitely active.

If I move into the playlist I simply cannot navigate up and down the list. All NVDA says is “List.” I have a good 30 mp3s in the playlist and, even if I start a new playlist and then enqueue a further set of mp3s, I remain unable to navigate the playlist.

I didn't bring the Winamp 5.666 installer with me, unfortunately.

I installed the NVDA extended Winamp addon last night but that doesn't seem to have changed anything.

Any suggestions very welcome.

Giles



Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Damien Garwood <damien@...>
 

Hi,
Aha, I see what you mean. It just so happens that commercial screen readers had these ideas first and NVDA saw how useful they were and implemented them.
On the other hand, I can't help but wonder what original ideas NVDA might have come up with if it were older that were actually better than what the commercial screen readers ever did? Of course it would have taken a lot more design, but I'm sure Mick and Jamie are capable enough that they could have done as good as, if not better than, the commercial ones, regardless of when it was built.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 07:50 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm nnot talking about exact methods and I don't know how proprietary they are or how generally known such methods are.  I'm talking about ways of doing things such as MSAA which is now largely replaced as I understand it by UIA and techniques that are in public view.  Quick navigation keys when using browse mode, b for button, h for heading etc. aren't proprietary and anyone can use a commercial screen-reader that uses them and see them described in documentation.  Concepts like the JAWS cursor or the Window-eyes mouse pointer are in plain view. Commands for seeing formatting information is another example.
My point is that a lot of work and development went into for profit screen-readers which is in plain view and NVDA wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced as it is if these decades of work hadn't been done.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Damien Garwood <mailto:damien@daygar.plus.com>
*Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 1:16 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
Hi Gene,
How can we be sure that NVDA is built on the same foundations as
commercial screen readers? To me, that doesn't make logical sense. I'm
not saying outright that it isn't the case - maybe I'm misinterpreting
or misunderstanding something here.
For one thing, commercial screen readers, by the very nature and
definition of the term, are closed-source, and thus any methods of
access would be kept a closely guarded secret. Let's face it - they
would know that competitors would be dangerous to the future of their
own operation, especially given the price tag. This is true for most
large companies, why should screen reading manufacturers be any different?
Secondly, NVDA uses open-source components to provide access to braille
and in-built speech (I'm referring of course to ESpeak), and
closed-source but publicly documented API's to provide accessibility
communication between system, applications and user. Commercial screen
readers need separate drivers that chain onto the video drivers and
access screen content that way. To me, that suggests that the way NVDA
works is totally different than its commercial predecessors.
Which is more reliable is, of course, subject to opinion. As far as I am
aware, each method will have its own advantages and disadvantages, but
that's another discussion entirely.
Cheers,
Damien.
On 24/09/2018 06:56 PM, Gene wrote:
> The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying assumption
> of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be
> provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay
> for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind
> people would be if this had been followed throughout history?
> In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical matter, it
> isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it
> for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.
> NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere
> near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in
> competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and
> experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all
> this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the
> very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it
> is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually,
> role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Cristóbal <mailto:cristobalmuli@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?
>
> He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own
> hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming
> abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own
> heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.
>
> Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a
> solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack
> of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow
> through on stuff. Whatever.
>
> But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it
> sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for
> access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger
> issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential
> process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.
>
> Cristóbal
>
> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of *Darren
> Harris via Groups.Io
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But
> the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry
> but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!
>
>
> On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@gmail.com
<mailto:cristobalmuli@gmail.com>
> <mailto:cristobalmuli@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.
>
>     Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.
>
> Cristóbal
>
>     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>     *Darren Harris via Groups.Io
>     *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
>     I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve
>     captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!
>
>
>     On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov
<mailto:glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov>
> <mailto:glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov>> wrote:
>
>         The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless”
> computer.
>
>         I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some
>         stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.
>
>         But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor
>         connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.
>
>         So for most folks, that is a good solution.
>
>         Glenn
>
>         It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally
>         have a monitor connected to it.
>
> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>         *Desert Moon
>         *Sent:* Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
>         Hello All,
>
>         When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the
>         Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's
>         on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
>         --
>         Desert
>
>


Re: another puzzling seting - this time Winamp

Lino Morales
 

Hi Jiles. Yeah that’s one NVDA needs to look into now that Winamp finally is making a come back possibly in October. Your right that NVDA does not read the list of tracks. I’m thinking an add-on suggestion should be submitted here.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Giles Turnbull <giles.turnbull@...>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 11:11:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] another puzzling seting - this time Winamp
 
Hi all,

I have another puzzling program issue, this time with Winamp.

I'm sure I've experienced this before,but I can't for the life of me remember how I sorted it out!

It relates to the Winamp 5.666 edition. I use it on my home laptop, my tablet computer and this new Dell laptop that I've got for university work.

For some reason I cannot navigate the playlist with NVDA. I suspect there is a setting that relates to how tracks are displayed, but I can't spot it in the preferences. The playlist window is definitely active.

If I move into the playlist I simply cannot navigate up and down the list. All NVDA says is “List.” I have a good 30 mp3s in the playlist and, even if I start a new playlist and then enqueue a further set of mp3s, I remain unable to navigate the playlist.

I didn't bring the Winamp 5.666 installer with me, unfortunately.

I installed the NVDA extended Winamp addon last night but that doesn't seem to have changed anything.

Any suggestions very welcome.

Giles


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Damien Garwood <damien@...>
 

Hi Brian,
I understand. Like I say, I recognise there's a lot of work involve. But at the end of the day, we don't choose to be blind, or deaf, or lack a sense of smell or spacial coordination.
I also understand that this isn't an ideal world and thus, at least for the moment, we do have to pay extra.
However, I do believe it's not right and will generally complain to whoever caused the inconvenience in the first place and stress how important it is that it is fully accessible.
Some countries do implement accessibility straight into their daily lives. Escalators that click at different speeds to differentiate up and down before you even step onto them. Beeping road crossings. Decent kerbs and lined pathways for better navigation. Failing that, constant announcements at public venues encouraging people to help those in need of assistance. Now if similar care had been taken to make technology that accessible, we wouldn't be in the position we're in today.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 07:42 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 01:49 PM, Damien Garwood wrote:
I know my views may seem very extreme to some,
And, indeed, they are.   Society at large is, and should be, expected to provide reasonable accommodations.  Sometimes those will be free, sometimes they will not.
You can and will often have to pay more to perform the same task because it is your personal needs that incur the expense.  It's not up to anyone else to foot that bill for you, though it's great when they will and do.
The above being said, I don't think society at large takes accessibility (in every sense of the word) seriously enough.  But reasonable accommodations are not any individual's ideal accommodations in all probability.  There are all sorts of individual differences that cause the individual to incur additional personal expense not in any way limited to what is viewed as a disability, either.  It's just a part of life, and no two individuals or groups that are non-overlapping are ever likely to be 100% perfectly equal.  Society and the law recognize what I describe as "equal enough" because perfect equality is attainable only in the abstract.
--
Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
/The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which //assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with //a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . ./
           ~ Bertrand Russell


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Gene
 

I'm nnot talking about exact methods and I don't know how proprietary they are or how generally known such methods are.  I'm talking about ways of doing things such as MSAA which is now largely replaced as I understand it by UIA and techniques that are in public view.  Quick navigation keys when using browse mode, b for button, h for heading etc. aren't proprietary and anyone can use a commercial screen-reader that uses them and see them described in documentation.  Concepts like the JAWS cursor or the Window-eyes mouse pointer are in plain view.  Commands for seeing formatting information is another example. 
 
My point is that a lot of work and development went into for profit screen-readers which is in plain view and NVDA wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced as it is if these decades of work hadn't been done.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Hi Gene,
How can we be sure that NVDA is built on the same foundations as
commercial screen readers? To me, that doesn't make logical sense. I'm
not saying outright that it isn't the case - maybe I'm misinterpreting
or misunderstanding something here.
For one thing, commercial screen readers, by the very nature and
definition of the term, are closed-source, and thus any methods of
access would be kept a closely guarded secret. Let's face it - they
would know that competitors would be dangerous to the future of their
own operation, especially given the price tag. This is true for most
large companies, why should screen reading manufacturers be any different?
Secondly, NVDA uses open-source components to provide access to braille
and in-built speech (I'm referring of course to ESpeak), and
closed-source but publicly documented API's to provide accessibility
communication between system, applications and user. Commercial screen
readers need separate drivers that chain onto the video drivers and
access screen content that way. To me, that suggests that the way NVDA
works is totally different than its commercial predecessors.
Which is more reliable is, of course, subject to opinion. As far as I am
aware, each method will have its own advantages and disadvantages, but
that's another discussion entirely.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 06:56 PM, Gene wrote:
> The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying assumption
> of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be
> provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay
> for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind
> people would be if this had been followed throughout history?
> In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical matter, it
> isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it
> for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.
> NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere
> near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in
> competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and
> experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all
> this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the
> very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it
> is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually,
> role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Cristóbal <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?
>
> He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own
> hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming
> abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own
> heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.
>
> Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a
> solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack
> of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow
> through on stuff. Whatever.
>
> But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it
> sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for
> access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger
> issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential
> process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.
>
> Cristóbal
>
> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Darren
> Harris via Groups.Io
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But
> the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry
> but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!
>
>
> On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...
> <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>> wrote:
>
>     Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.
>
>     Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.
>
>     Cristóbal
>
>     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>     <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>     *Darren Harris via Groups.Io
>     *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
>     I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve
>     captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!
>
>
>     On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...
>     <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>> wrote:
>
>         The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless”
>         computer.
>
>         I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some
>         stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.
>
>         But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor
>         connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.
>
>         So for most folks, that is a good solution.
>
>         Glenn
>
>         It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally
>         have a monitor connected to it.
>
>         *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>         <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>         *Desert Moon
>         *Sent:* Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
>         Hello All,
>
>         When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the
>         Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's
>         on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
>         --
>         Desert
>
>



Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 01:49 PM, Damien Garwood wrote:
I know my views may seem very extreme to some,
And, indeed, they are.   Society at large is, and should be, expected to provide reasonable accommodations.  Sometimes those will be free, sometimes they will not.

You can and will often have to pay more to perform the same task because it is your personal needs that incur the expense.  It's not up to anyone else to foot that bill for you, though it's great when they will and do.

The above being said, I don't think society at large takes accessibility (in every sense of the word) seriously enough.  But reasonable accommodations are not any individual's ideal accommodations in all probability.  There are all sorts of individual differences that cause the individual to incur additional personal expense not in any way limited to what is viewed as a disability, either.  It's just a part of life, and no two individuals or groups that are non-overlapping are ever likely to be 100% perfectly equal.  Society and the law recognize what I describe as "equal enough" because perfect equality is attainable only in the abstract.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Gene,

           This is one of those rare instances where we are on precisely the same page.

           Solutions to any given problem may (or may not) trigger ancillary problems for any specific population.  It is not incumbent on someone solving one problem to spend ages thinking about "the law of unintended consequences" when a solution to the initial problem (in this case of Captchas, both rampant spam and bot registrations) is pressing.

            There is a difference between providing reasonable accommodations and providing every possible workaround at no cost and instantly.  I just don't see why certain members of this community cannot and will not see that there are competing and equally valid interests being protected and sometimes that means your interest will be on "the losing side" and you will have to figure out a solution or pay someone else to do so.  This is true for everyone in the world to a greater or a lesser extent, depending on the situation.

             The same thing is true of those who adamantly insist that employers are responsible for providing them the screen reader of their choice.  While that would be nice, and you should lobby for that as an individual, if they're providing you with one that allows you to do the job that's where reasonable accommodation stops.  Now, a wise employer knows that from a productivity standpoint making someone relearn software that they've already mastered from another maker is most often a very inefficient use of resources compared to getting the alternative already known installed.  But if they're willing to pay the price in time and pay and make someone learn, that's their call.  Anyone who's ever worked in a large organization knows that you, as an employee, are going to bend to the employer's wishes and not the other way around.  One can and should advocate for oneself, but one should also recognize when the envelope is being pushed to its likely breaking point, too.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Damien Garwood <damien@...>
 

Hi Gene,
How can we be sure that NVDA is built on the same foundations as commercial screen readers? To me, that doesn't make logical sense. I'm not saying outright that it isn't the case - maybe I'm misinterpreting or misunderstanding something here.
For one thing, commercial screen readers, by the very nature and definition of the term, are closed-source, and thus any methods of access would be kept a closely guarded secret. Let's face it - they would know that competitors would be dangerous to the future of their own operation, especially given the price tag. This is true for most large companies, why should screen reading manufacturers be any different?
Secondly, NVDA uses open-source components to provide access to braille and in-built speech (I'm referring of course to ESpeak), and closed-source but publicly documented API's to provide accessibility communication between system, applications and user. Commercial screen readers need separate drivers that chain onto the video drivers and access screen content that way. To me, that suggests that the way NVDA works is totally different than its commercial predecessors.
Which is more reliable is, of course, subject to opinion. As far as I am aware, each method will have its own advantages and disadvantages, but that's another discussion entirely.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 06:56 PM, Gene wrote:
The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying assumption of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind people would be if this had been followed throughout history?
In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical matter, it isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.
NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually, role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Cristóbal <mailto:cristobalmuli@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?
He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.
Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow through on stuff. Whatever.
But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.
Cristóbal
*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Darren Harris via Groups.Io
*Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!
On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@gmail.com <mailto:cristobalmuli@gmail.com>> wrote:
Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.
Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.
Cristóbal
*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
*Darren Harris via Groups.Io
*Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve
captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!
On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov
<mailto:glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov>> wrote:
The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless”
computer.
I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some
stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.
But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor
connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.
So for most folks, that is a good solution.
Glenn
It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally
have a monitor connected to it.
*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
*Desert Moon
*Sent:* Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
Hello All,
When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the
Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's
on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
--
Desert


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Roger Stewart
 

Here Here!!  I couldn't have said it better!

Roger

On 9/24/2018 12:49 PM, Damien Garwood wrote:
Hi Brian,
I can see both sides of the coin here.
I am not generally one for grouching and complaining all the time, but I can see why a lot of blind people complain about paying for accessibility. Of course, I draw the line when I see people complaining that an audio game is not worth the price, when it is in fact half the price that its mainstream version would be in a gamestore. However, the fact that, prior to 2006, all screen readers pretty much required a bankvault to fund, as do braille notes, displays and embossers, whether manual or automatic, to this very day. Talking calculators and dictionaries used to cost in the hundreds (of course computers can do a much better job of both these days), when sighted people had access to these materials at as much as a tenth, and as little as a hundredth, of the cost. So yes, I can certainly see why Darren would complain that we should have to pay a monthly fee, no matter how small, to pay for solving CAPTCHAs, which sighted people could solve with a simple glance at the screen...In other words, paying for accessibility, which in my eyes (no pun intended) should be a basic human right governed by law, rather than another attempt to try to snatch as much money out of us as they can, bearing in mind that a lot of blind people live on a very low income in the first place.
On the other hand, I totally appreciate that a lot of work goes into these things, whether it be studio time for recording an audiobook or movie narration script, people working for AIRA or Be My Eyes etc, or developing the hardware and/or software specifically to conquer these barriers, designing a database of different algorithms used for CAPTCHAs, not to mention any components that the developers themselves may have to pay for in the process of development and so on, and that things do, somehow, need to be funded from somewhere in the chain. Of course, as I said in an earlier message, CBG itself relied on an external paid service to operate.
This is why I am extremely thankful for NVAccess, who actually gave us a screen reader for free, out of the goodness of their hearts, and a pure understanding of the problem we face on a daily basis, and decided to recoup their losses through donations. Had it not been for them, I would likely not be able to use a computer, unless I decided to tolerate rebooting every thirty or forty minutes with a demo screen reading product.
Then again, we come back to accessibility by right - if this was mandatory by law years ago, we wouldn't have to rely on third-party services to "break" security and/or reverse-engineer things in the first place, since getting back to our original scenario, all CAPTCHAs would be configurable to the disability involved, giving options for distorted image, ASCII, audio, text, logic, or form based. Governments would have no need to stretch their funds to the limit and say no to 99% of people who applied for a grant for a specific piece of equipment or adaptation. There would be none of this "have you anyone sighted to read the display?" or "look at the lights?". Everything would just be sitting right there, waiting for us to use efficiently and effectively.
Summary: I do not think we should get everything handed on a silver platter. But nor do I believe we should just shut up and live with our sorry lot. If a sighted person goes bowling and pays £10, and I go bowling and have to pay £30 because I can't read the scoreboard, I will complain, and I will complain rigorously.
I know my views may seem very extreme to some, given the current status quo, and given how difficult it is to incorporate accessibility into things. But I personally believe we have as much right to accessibility as women now have the right to vote. I have no qualms about paying, but I don't think we should have to pay any more than a so-called able-bodied person would have to pay to perform the same task, just because one or more parts of our body that society says we need don't function in the way society seems to think they should.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 04:35 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 11:10 AM, Darren Harris wrote:

    Why should anybody have to pay to solve captures? It was nothing
    more than exploitation!

Because a lot of people want an automated method to solve them so that they can workaround what is supposed to be a way of preventing bots from getting access to things.

These solving services aren't primarily aimed at the blind and the prices they charge are a pittance.

Believe it or not, it's not all about you.  The world does not revolve around you.  People work to create the software and databases dedicated to this purpose and expect that there should be remuneration for that work.  It's not shocking nor is it wrong (other than I think it's sleazy to workaround something meant to prevent spamming, and that's what's really going on here, which is, sadly, pretty much a part of the cat and mouse game of security).

--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

/The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which //assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with //a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . ./

            ~ Bertrand Russell


.


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Gene
 

The problem isn't just with this one service.  The underlying assumption of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind people would be if this had been followed throughout history? 
 
In an ideal world, this might be the case.  But as a practical matter, it isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable. 
 
NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually, role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Cristóbal
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?

He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.

Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow through on stuff. Whatever.

But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.

 

 

 

Cristóbal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...> wrote:

Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.

Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.

 

Cristóbal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...> wrote:

The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless” computer.

I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.

But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.

So for most folks, that is a good solution.

 

Glenn

It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally have a monitor connected to it.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Desert Moon
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Hello All,

When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
--
Desert


Re: NVDA 2018.3 running slow in Windows 7

Cearbhall O'Meadhra
 

Hi Quentin et al,

 

A colleague reported today that the Latest Firefox is running very slow when she have NVDA running in Windows 7. She has good eyesight and finds that Firefox runs smoothly and snappily when NVDA is not running.

 

Is this the issue that has been reported recently?

 

If so, what version of Firefox should she run with Windows 7 and what version of NVDA would be recommended also.

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

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