Date   

Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Gene
 

I haven't used JAWS to any extent for years.  When in Internet Explorer, I don't know about other browsers, if you open the quick settings dialog, you will see a copy from page or copy from clipboard option.  You can change it with the space bar.  The command to open the quick settings dialog is JAWS key v.
 
You can experiment to see the differences when you copy using the different settings. 
 
Quick navigation keys don't work in forms mode.  they only work in the virtual PC cursor, just as they only work in Browse Mode.  they are almost exactly the same feature. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Since analogies to JAWS have been made, I am not quite sure I understand the difference between browse mode (in both JAWS and NVDA) and Forms Mode (JAWS) and Focus Mode (NVDA).

The behaviors, at least so far, that I've seen in browse mode in both are very largely analgous, and Forms Mode in JAWS is very similar to Focus Mode in NVDA.

As far as movement goes, I can't use quick navigation in JAWS if I'm in Forms mode, as it takes the commands as though I were entering text, which makes perfect sense, as that's the purpose of Forms Mode.  The same is true of NVDA in Focus Mode.

The above is an aside, or at least aside from the copy/paste issue.  What am I missing here?

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 02:28 PM, Gene wrote:
JAWS has a copy from clipboard option and, as I recall, copy from page is the default option.
The following is not hair splitting, or at least not intentionally so.

These three objects/areas are used by JAWS (and, the equivalent, by NVDA):  Virtual cursor (buffer), clipboard (Windows system clipboard), and the actual page as presented.

I would definitely say, based on my years tutoring JAWS, that copies are, by default, not done from the virtual cursor, but from the page.  Copy and paste has always, even when what was being copied is not visible (as JAWS makes no effort to keep actual visual page and location in the virtual cursor synchronized for text), formatted as it appears if I can see it.  Anything copied, when copied, gets placed on the clipboard, which is utterly independent of the screen reader itself.

So far as I'm concerned, this is the most reasonable option, because any screen reader loads its virtual cursor when it gets its hands on something and the fact that the probability that one is likely to be primarily and exclusively communicating with individuals for whom visual formatting is "insignificant" is very, very small.  Maintaining WYSIWYG is, as has been pointed out here as the crux of the topic, very largely essential for communicating effectively with those not using screen readers, which I doubt that anyone here would argue is a far larger chunk of the world's populace than those that do.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Gene
 

I assumed you understood.  I wanted to state matters as clearly as I could in case others less familiar with the subject didn't follow it fully.
 
Gene
 


Re: no braille in help mode

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Not being a Braille user, do you have the enhanced area add on in the nvda you use. I saw some chat about this giving rise to Braille issues earlier today somewhere.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Tew via Groups.Io" <briantew1951=icloud.com@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 2:12 PM
Subject: [nvda] no braille in help mode


when I press nvda+1 all braille ceases.
It comes back as soon as I press nvda+1 again.
using hims u2 on win ten 64bit desktop.



Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Since analogies to JAWS have been made, I am not quite sure I understand the difference between browse mode (in both JAWS and NVDA) and Forms Mode (JAWS) and Focus Mode (NVDA).

The behaviors, at least so far, that I've seen in browse mode in both are very largely analgous, and Forms Mode in JAWS is very similar to Focus Mode in NVDA.

As far as movement goes, I can't use quick navigation in JAWS if I'm in Forms mode, as it takes the commands as though I were entering text, which makes perfect sense, as that's the purpose of Forms Mode.  The same is true of NVDA in Focus Mode.

The above is an aside, or at least aside from the copy/paste issue.  What am I missing here?

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

A few are, but mostly not. I think the best way to get this noticed is to post a feature request on github and see what happens. It has an associated email list so you can follow any discussions.
I myself have only just got a registered copy of Jaws, and although sometimes its clearer, it is slower and more verbose and seems to have strange defaults, but then if I were a Jaws user and came to nvda, I'd probably have some issues the other way around!
I do think the announcement of the make up of a page on the web is quite handy. This is something we have asked for in nvda before though, and if you know the page such a list could be very annoying!


As for the rules of cut and paste, is there nothing in the user guide? What about the selection system used in drag and drop?
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Walker, Michael E" <michael.e.walker3@boeing.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard


Thank you, Gene. Does this feedback and questions we are discussing get seen by the developers? Are most of NVDA's developers also on this list?

Thanks,
Michael E. Walker
Programmer/Analyst: HR, SSG & Corporate Systems
The Boeing Company
Email: Michael.E.Walker3@Boeing.com

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

The only way I know to do it is to turn off browse mode, select the entire page with control a, paste it to the clip board, then copy the entire page into something which will retain the formatting. others may tell you if Word, or some other program does this. Then, you would copy only what you want of the entire page to the clipboard and paste it wherever you want.

Either that, or use a JAWS demo where, I believe copy from page is the default. NVDA copies from the browse mode buffer and you can't change that unless you turn off the browse mode buffer and copy the entire page since you can't select by phrase, line, etc. if you turn off the browse mode buffer.

Again, as yesterday, this is an important matter of user definable options that should be available. Perhaps a small group should be convened to consider such important options and implement them. NVDA will not be a properly capable employment or academic grade screen-reader until these sorts of abilities are implemented.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Walker, Michael E<mailto:michael.e.walker3@boeing.com>
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Hi,

When I am in Firefox and IE, if I copy several lines or paragraphs to the clipboard using shift+down arrow, formatting is not retained, but the text I want to copy is. How do I retain the formatting as well? How do I get NVDA to do that?

Thanks,
Mike


Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Gene
 

You are hearing that information because JAWS is telling it to you in the new location.  A sighted person wouldn't see it on the page.  If you used the copy from virtual pc cursor option that information would appear as text on the page where you paste it.  Not what you want a sighted person to see.  The table would be formatted differently as well.  JAWS has a copy from clipboard option and, as I recall, copy from page is the default option.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Gene, in JAWS with the virtual PC cursor active, I don’t have to choose between copying as the virtual PC cursor sees it versus how a sighted user sees it. I just select what I need and press CTRL+C. When I paste with CTRL+V to new location, I can still hear the number of columns the table is, the heading announcements, and so on, and when I press insert+f, I can validate that is how a sighted person sees it. You are right that NVDA needs to behave this way.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 1:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Which is why I said to select the entire page, control a, Copy it to the clipboard, then paste it into a program where the formatting is retained and edit it there.  The whole point of browse mode is to give you a virtual cursor so you can move around the page as though there were a real cursor and it also reformats the page in some ways to make reading logical for blind readers. 

 

Without browse mode, you can move as though there were a cursor because there isn't one, except in edit fields.

 

The question is, when you select using the virtual cursor, are you selecting text as it appears in the virtual cursor or as it appears on the actual page?  Formatting, the kind of font, italics, etc. may be retained either way.  Try down arrowing through a table in browse mode and select as you go.  Copy to the clipboard and paste in a program.  Are the columns arranged as they should be or are they all columns, one underneath the other as they appear in browse mode. 

 

I just tried this on one site.  Note the difference:

Browse mode on:

Su
Mo
Tu
We
Th
Fr
Sa
 29 
 30 
 31 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 7 
 8 
 9 
 10 
 11 
 12 
 13 
 14 
 15 
 16 
 17 
 18 
 19 
 20 
 21 
 22 
 23 
 24 
 25 
 26 
 27 
 28 
 29 
 30 
 31 

1

 

Browse Mode off:

Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa

29 30 31 1 2 3 4

5 6 7 8 9 10 11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

26 27 28 29 30 31 1

 

That is how the table appears to a sighted person.

 

I would think other structures are altered where advantageous to a blind reader using Browse Mode as well. 

 

When corresponding with sighted people, it is often important to be able to reproduce material from Internet pages as it appears on the page, not as browse mode reformats it for blind users.

 

JAWS gives the user a choice, copy from virtual PC cursor or copy from page,  NVDA doesn't and this is an ability that must be added if NVDA is going to be a work and academically properly capable screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

How do you know what you are selecting? When I go to asp.net and press h in Firefox to get to the first heading, I then press NVDA+space bar, to activate focus mode. When I press shift+down arrow after that, NVDA does not announce what I am selecting. The heading was not selected, when I pasted into Outlook, but other text was, and the formatting was retained.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Michael,

             I was in the Google Chrome browser for that testing cycle.   I just did the same from Firefox for this testing cycle, but I believe that it's in how we're doing our selection that's different.

             I don't use NVDA's select function, but go back to native Windows text selection once I know where I want to start from.  I've mostly been using SHIFT + Down Arrow, with NVDA in focus mode, and that's as Gene indicated.  But if I use Windows text selection keyboard commands the text is being selected just as if I'd done so with the mouse (and that includes selection of images and other bits, too) and it pastes straight into Word.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Walker, Michael E
 

Gene, I understood what you meant. If you want to get the functionality I am describing into NVDA, you, Brian, and others in this discussion are just going to need to fire up JAWS in demo mode, and see for yourself. I am not sure how else to explain it. In JAWS, if I select a partial bit of text, formatting is retained, which is what I need in the workplace. Keep in mind Gene’s point about college and employment.

 

Thanks,

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 1:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

A minor corredction.  I meant to say can't in this sentence:

Without browse mode, you can't move as though there were a cursor because there isn't one, except in edit fields.  In other words, in Browse Mode, you can move as though there were a cursor and with Browse Mode off, you can't. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

From: Gene

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 1:15 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Which is why I said to select the entire page, control a, Copy it to the clipboard, then paste it into a program where the formatting is retained and edit it there.  The whole point of browse mode is to give you a virtual cursor so you can move around the page as though there were a real cursor and it also reformats the page in some ways to make reading logical for blind readers. 

 

Without browse mode, you can move as though there were a cursor because there isn't one, except in edit fields.

 

The question is, when you select using the virtual cursor, are you selecting text as it appears in the virtual cursor or as it appears on the actual page?  Formatting, the kind of font, italics, etc. may be retained either way.  Try down arrowing through a table in browse mode and select as you go.  Copy to the clipboard and paste in a program.  Are the columns arranged as they should be or are they all columns, one underneath the other as they appear in browse mode. 

 

I just tried this on one site.  Note the difference:

Browse mode on:

Su
Mo
Tu
We
Th
Fr
Sa
 29 
 30 
 31 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 7 
 8 
 9 
 10 
 11 
 12 
 13 
 14 
 15 
 16 
 17 
 18 
 19 
 20 
 21 
 22 
 23 
 24 
 25 
 26 
 27 
 28 
 29 
 30 
 31 

1

 

Browse Mode off:

Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa

29 30 31 1 2 3 4

5 6 7 8 9 10 11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

26 27 28 29 30 31 1

 

That is how the table appears to a sighted person.

 

I would think other structures are altered where advantageous to a blind reader using Browse Mode as well. 

 

When corresponding with sighted people, it is often important to be able to reproduce material from Internet pages as it appears on the page, not as browse mode reformats it for blind users.

 

JAWS gives the user a choice, copy from virtual PC cursor or copy from page,  NVDA doesn't and this is an ability that must be added if NVDA is going to be a work and academically properly capable screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

How do you know what you are selecting? When I go to asp.net and press h in Firefox to get to the first heading, I then press NVDA+space bar, to activate focus mode. When I press shift+down arrow after that, NVDA does not announce what I am selecting. The heading was not selected, when I pasted into Outlook, but other text was, and the formatting was retained.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Michael,

             I was in the Google Chrome browser for that testing cycle.   I just did the same from Firefox for this testing cycle, but I believe that it's in how we're doing our selection that's different.

             I don't use NVDA's select function, but go back to native Windows text selection once I know where I want to start from.  I've mostly been using SHIFT + Down Arrow, with NVDA in focus mode, and that's as Gene indicated.  But if I use Windows text selection keyboard commands the text is being selected just as if I'd done so with the mouse (and that includes selection of images and other bits, too) and it pastes straight into Word.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Gene
 

A minor corredction.  I meant to say can't in this sentence:
Without browse mode, you can't move as though there were a cursor because there isn't one, except in edit fields.  In other words, in Browse Mode, you can move as though there were a cursor and with Browse Mode off, you can't. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Which is why I said to select the entire page, control a, Copy it to the clipboard, then paste it into a program where the formatting is retained and edit it there.  The whole point of browse mode is to give you a virtual cursor so you can move around the page as though there were a real cursor and it also reformats the page in some ways to make reading logical for blind readers. 
 
Without browse mode, you can move as though there were a cursor because there isn't one, except in edit fields.
 
The question is, when you select using the virtual cursor, are you selecting text as it appears in the virtual cursor or as it appears on the actual page?  Formatting, the kind of font, italics, etc. may be retained either way.  Try down arrowing through a table in browse mode and select as you go.  Copy to the clipboard and paste in a program.  Are the columns arranged as they should be or are they all columns, one underneath the other as they appear in browse mode. 
 
I just tried this on one site.  Note the difference:
Browse mode on:
Su
Mo
Tu
We
Th
Fr
Sa
 29 
 30 
 31 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 7 
 8 
 9 
 10 
 11 
 12 
 13 
 14 
 15 
 16 
 17 
 18 
 19 
 20 
 21 
 22 
 23 
 24 
 25 
 26 
 27 
 28 
 29 
 30 
 31 
1
 
Browse Mode off:

Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa

29 30 31 1 2 3 4

5 6 7 8 9 10 11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

26 27 28 29 30 31 1

 

That is how the table appears to a sighted person.

 

I would think other structures are altered where advantageous to a blind reader using Browse Mode as well. 

 

When corresponding with sighted people, it is often important to be able to reproduce material from Internet pages as it appears on the page, not as browse mode reformats it for blind users.

 

JAWS gives the user a choice, copy from virtual PC cursor or copy from page,  NVDA doesn't and this is an ability that must be added if NVDA is going to be a work and academically properly capable screen-reader.

 

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

How do you know what you are selecting? When I go to asp.net and press h in Firefox to get to the first heading, I then press NVDA+space bar, to activate focus mode. When I press shift+down arrow after that, NVDA does not announce what I am selecting. The heading was not selected, when I pasted into Outlook, but other text was, and the formatting was retained.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Michael,

             I was in the Google Chrome browser for that testing cycle.   I just did the same from Firefox for this testing cycle, but I believe that it's in how we're doing our selection that's different.

             I don't use NVDA's select function, but go back to native Windows text selection once I know where I want to start from.  I've mostly been using SHIFT + Down Arrow, with NVDA in focus mode, and that's as Gene indicated.  But if I use Windows text selection keyboard commands the text is being selected just as if I'd done so with the mouse (and that includes selection of images and other bits, too) and it pastes straight into Word.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: Thunderbird columns with object navigation

David Mellor
 

I'm happy with the technique, I just can't find the column headers.
I know they're there because they are announced by NVDA-b to read the whole
screen contents.
I've been wondering round and round the object hierarchy a few times.
The add-ons will let me sort it out. No worries.
David

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of marcio
via Groups.Io
Sent: 17 August 2018 17:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird columns with object navigation

David,
You can adjust it as you like just using the object navigation and some
mouse clicks simulations.
There's an article that explain how it works but as I am a brazilian
guy, it's 100% in Brazilian Portuguese.
At this point if anyone knows (and can) help with this question it'll be
nice.
Em 16/08/2018 10:20, David Mellor escreveu:


Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I think the point has to be here that if you are only cutting part of a formatted bit of text that part of the formatting cannot be known if it is outside of the selection, so it will paste in some way other than might have been expected.
I see no real way around this other than to somehow cut and paste all of the page or at least the currently formatted bit and paste it into word, then use cut and paste again between word docs.
I have found this works quite well.

Often of course, as I often have to do, I do not really want formatting as I'm making up a script to read using facts taken from the web.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard


Gene,

I believe your latest suspicion is probably correct. I found the same thing that you did if I selected when Focus Highlight showed me to be in browse mode with a thin, green dashed line indicating the navigator object selected. When this was text of any kind I'd get straight text - formatting was not retained.

I used the methods I document here:

* Selecting Text Using Windows Keyboard Shortcuts ( https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1Sl1yCHgIdbSAVHq1d8I9k-Gw8JBOG7_R )

once I've got myself positioned where I want to be, or at least roughly so, I really don't know how screen reader users ever get precise positioning in masses of text easily, as I'm certainly crappy at doing so using only the keyboard.

If I select that way all formatting, and additional content if the text is interrupted by an inline image, is retained and pastes perfectly.

Someone else who's a better NVDA user than I am can test the details out.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

~ Richard Dehmel


Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Walker, Michael E
 

Gene, in JAWS with the virtual PC cursor active, I don’t have to choose between copying as the virtual PC cursor sees it versus how a sighted user sees it. I just select what I need and press CTRL+C. When I paste with CTRL+V to new location, I can still hear the number of columns the table is, the heading announcements, and so on, and when I press insert+f, I can validate that is how a sighted person sees it. You are right that NVDA needs to behave this way.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 1:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Which is why I said to select the entire page, control a, Copy it to the clipboard, then paste it into a program where the formatting is retained and edit it there.  The whole point of browse mode is to give you a virtual cursor so you can move around the page as though there were a real cursor and it also reformats the page in some ways to make reading logical for blind readers. 

 

Without browse mode, you can move as though there were a cursor because there isn't one, except in edit fields.

 

The question is, when you select using the virtual cursor, are you selecting text as it appears in the virtual cursor or as it appears on the actual page?  Formatting, the kind of font, italics, etc. may be retained either way.  Try down arrowing through a table in browse mode and select as you go.  Copy to the clipboard and paste in a program.  Are the columns arranged as they should be or are they all columns, one underneath the other as they appear in browse mode. 

 

I just tried this on one site.  Note the difference:

Browse mode on:

Su
Mo
Tu
We
Th
Fr
Sa
 29 
 30 
 31 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 7 
 8 
 9 
 10 
 11 
 12 
 13 
 14 
 15 
 16 
 17 
 18 
 19 
 20 
 21 
 22 
 23 
 24 
 25 
 26 
 27 
 28 
 29 
 30 
 31 

1

 

Browse Mode off:

Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa

29 30 31 1 2 3 4

5 6 7 8 9 10 11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

26 27 28 29 30 31 1

 

That is how the table appears to a sighted person.

 

I would think other structures are altered where advantageous to a blind reader using Browse Mode as well. 

 

When corresponding with sighted people, it is often important to be able to reproduce material from Internet pages as it appears on the page, not as browse mode reformats it for blind users.

 

JAWS gives the user a choice, copy from virtual PC cursor or copy from page,  NVDA doesn't and this is an ability that must be added if NVDA is going to be a work and academically properly capable screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

How do you know what you are selecting? When I go to asp.net and press h in Firefox to get to the first heading, I then press NVDA+space bar, to activate focus mode. When I press shift+down arrow after that, NVDA does not announce what I am selecting. The heading was not selected, when I pasted into Outlook, but other text was, and the formatting was retained.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Michael,

             I was in the Google Chrome browser for that testing cycle.   I just did the same from Firefox for this testing cycle, but I believe that it's in how we're doing our selection that's different.

             I don't use NVDA's select function, but go back to native Windows text selection once I know where I want to start from.  I've mostly been using SHIFT + Down Arrow, with NVDA in focus mode, and that's as Gene indicated.  But if I use Windows text selection keyboard commands the text is being selected just as if I'd done so with the mouse (and that includes selection of images and other bits, too) and it pastes straight into Word.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Gene
 

Which is why I said to select the entire page, control a, Copy it to the clipboard, then paste it into a program where the formatting is retained and edit it there.  The whole point of browse mode is to give you a virtual cursor so you can move around the page as though there were a real cursor and it also reformats the page in some ways to make reading logical for blind readers. 
 
Without browse mode, you can move as though there were a cursor because there isn't one, except in edit fields.
 
The question is, when you select using the virtual cursor, are you selecting text as it appears in the virtual cursor or as it appears on the actual page?  Formatting, the kind of font, italics, etc. may be retained either way.  Try down arrowing through a table in browse mode and select as you go.  Copy to the clipboard and paste in a program.  Are the columns arranged as they should be or are they all columns, one underneath the other as they appear in browse mode. 
 
I just tried this on one site.  Note the difference:
Browse mode on:
Su
Mo
Tu
We
Th
Fr
Sa
 29 
 30 
 31 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 7 
 8 
 9 
 10 
 11 
 12 
 13 
 14 
 15 
 16 
 17 
 18 
 19 
 20 
 21 
 22 
 23 
 24 
 25 
 26 
 27 
 28 
 29 
 30 
 31 
1
 
Browse Mode off:

Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa

29 30 31 1 2 3 4

5 6 7 8 9 10 11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

26 27 28 29 30 31 1

 

That is how the table appears to a sighted person.

 

I would think other structures are altered where advantageous to a blind reader using Browse Mode as well. 

 

When corresponding with sighted people, it is often important to be able to reproduce material from Internet pages as it appears on the page, not as browse mode reformats it for blind users.

 

JAWS gives the user a choice, copy from virtual PC cursor or copy from page,  NVDA doesn't and this is an ability that must be added if NVDA is going to be a work and academically properly capable screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

How do you know what you are selecting? When I go to asp.net and press h in Firefox to get to the first heading, I then press NVDA+space bar, to activate focus mode. When I press shift+down arrow after that, NVDA does not announce what I am selecting. The heading was not selected, when I pasted into Outlook, but other text was, and the formatting was retained.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Michael,

             I was in the Google Chrome browser for that testing cycle.   I just did the same from Firefox for this testing cycle, but I believe that it's in how we're doing our selection that's different.

             I don't use NVDA's select function, but go back to native Windows text selection once I know where I want to start from.  I've mostly been using SHIFT + Down Arrow, with NVDA in focus mode, and that's as Gene indicated.  But if I use Windows text selection keyboard commands the text is being selected just as if I'd done so with the mouse (and that includes selection of images and other bits, too) and it pastes straight into Word.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


NVDA Just Stopped reading my google sheet

Martin O'Sullivan
 

Nothing has changed on my end one second NVDA was reading the sheet fine, then it just stopped.  Now it will not read the sells.

It still reads the menu, but not the contents of the sells.

Here is what NVDA Says when I open the sheet.

Start of NVDA Output

Copy of Gmail Scheduler by ctrlq.org - Google Sheets - Google Chrome  icon  2 of 6
Copy of Gmail Scheduler by ctrlq.org - Google Sheets - Google Chrome  icon  2 of 6
Copy of Gmail Scheduler by ctrlq.org - Google Sheets - Google Chrome  row 1  column 1
Copy of Gmail Scheduler by ctrlq.org - Google Sheets
application
E3  combo box  multi line  editable
n

Copy of Gmail Scheduler by ctrlq.org - Google Sheets
application
application
Working... 
 
You are online
You are online
To enable screen reader support, press Ctrl+Alt+Z To learn about keyboard shortcuts, press Ctrl+slash 
Screen reader support enabled. 
Working... 
 
Copy of Gmail Scheduler by ctrlq.org - Google Sheets - Google Chrome  icon  2 of 6
Copy of Gmail Scheduler by ctrlq.org - Google Sheets - Google Chrome  icon  2 of 6

End  of NVDA Output

I have done the following to try and resolve the problem.

1 restarted NVDA, no effect.
2 Restarted  Chrome No Effect
3 using Firefox  no effect
4 Restarted the computer No effect
5 Removed and Reinstalled NVDA No effect
6 Run NVDA from a USB Stick No effect

I need this to work what can I do.

--
Martin O'Sullivan
‎"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."  Hélder Câmara

"Act your way into a feeling don’t feel your way into Action" (Gandhi)
"Be the change you want to see in the world." (Gandhi)

"We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." (Elie Wiesel )
Tel: +353878289243
web: www.PeopleBeforeProfit.ie
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Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Walker, Michael E
 

Brian and Gene, if I select anything in browse mode, Gene is right. NVDA will copy the text the way browse mode sees it, so if I select a table, it will copy something like “Table with two columns and three rows.” That exact text would get copied.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 12:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Gene,

          I believe your latest suspicion is probably correct.  I found the same thing that you did if I selected when Focus Highlight showed me to be in browse mode with a thin, green dashed line indicating the navigator object selected.  When this was text of any kind I'd get straight text - formatting was not retained.

          I used the methods I document here:


once I've got myself positioned where I want to be, or at least roughly so, I really don't know how screen reader users ever get precise positioning in masses of text easily, as I'm certainly crappy at doing so using only the keyboard.

If I select that way all formatting, and additional content if  the text is interrupted by an inline image, is retained and pastes perfectly.

Someone else who's a better NVDA user than I am can test the details out.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Gene,

          I believe your latest suspicion is probably correct.  I found the same thing that you did if I selected when Focus Highlight showed me to be in browse mode with a thin, green dashed line indicating the navigator object selected.  When this was text of any kind I'd get straight text - formatting was not retained.

          I used the methods I document here:


once I've got myself positioned where I want to be, or at least roughly so, I really don't know how screen reader users ever get precise positioning in masses of text easily, as I'm certainly crappy at doing so using only the keyboard.

If I select that way all formatting, and additional content if  the text is interrupted by an inline image, is retained and pastes perfectly.

Someone else who's a better NVDA user than I am can test the details out.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Gene
 

I hope others comment on this.  I may be wrong; I thought that ifyou copy when browse mode is on that the text is copied from the browse mode buffer which wouldn't necessarily present the article as a sighted person sees it.  That may be true.  My error may have been in thinking that if copying something like a sentence or two, that the actual information would be more or less in text format.  That may be incorrect.  But I suspect that if you copied and pasted a table with browse mode on, that it would appear not as it appears on the page but as it does with browse mode on, that is, one column of a table, then below that whole column, another table such as all the days of the week in a column, then the holidays that may appear on certain days underneath the first column.
 
It may be that when just copying text in a standard format, running down the page, it would appear in or about in the same way whether browse mode is on or off.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 11:07 AM, Walker, Michael E wrote:
I am pasting into Outlook.
I would check what your default paste settings are in the Outlook Message editor.  (Also, for complete clarity, what version of Outlook).

I just went to a page on the New York times, selected a paragraph and a half of text entirely using keyboard commands and when running NVDA, and pasted in Word and all of the formatting, including links in the article, pasted right in.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Walker, Michael E
 

How do you know what you are selecting? When I go to asp.net and press h in Firefox to get to the first heading, I then press NVDA+space bar, to activate focus mode. When I press shift+down arrow after that, NVDA does not announce what I am selecting. The heading was not selected, when I pasted into Outlook, but other text was, and the formatting was retained.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Michael,

             I was in the Google Chrome browser for that testing cycle.   I just did the same from Firefox for this testing cycle, but I believe that it's in how we're doing our selection that's different.

             I don't use NVDA's select function, but go back to native Windows text selection once I know where I want to start from.  I've mostly been using SHIFT + Down Arrow, with NVDA in focus mode, and that's as Gene indicated.  But if I use Windows text selection keyboard commands the text is being selected just as if I'd done so with the mouse (and that includes selection of images and other bits, too) and it pastes straight into Word.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Michael,

             I was in the Google Chrome browser for that testing cycle.   I just did the same from Firefox for this testing cycle, but I believe that it's in how we're doing our selection that's different.

             I don't use NVDA's select function, but go back to native Windows text selection once I know where I want to start from.  I've mostly been using SHIFT + Down Arrow, with NVDA in focus mode, and that's as Gene indicated.  But if I use Windows text selection keyboard commands the text is being selected just as if I'd done so with the mouse (and that includes selection of images and other bits, too) and it pastes straight into Word.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

Walker, Michael E
 

Brian,

 

What are you using to view the New York Times with NVDA?


Thanks,

Michael E. Walker

Programmer/Analyst: HR, SSG & Corporate Systems

The Boeing Company

Email: Michael.E.Walker3@...

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Michael,

            I  did see Gene's message.   Did you see mine?

            When I have NVDA up, am looking at the New York Times and copying and pasting I am not having this issue.  I am trying to figure out either what I'm missing that you're doing that causes said issue or whether what I'm doing should work.

             I am, of course, perfectly willing to drop this entirely.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel