Date   

Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Joseph,

Since this thread got a little bit hijacked by Linnux, did you get my
message to say that doing the importUIAHandler thing as you directed cured
my Explorer issues?

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 22 May 2018 16:28
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi all,
A few things:
1. Vocalizer: depends on what Nuance would say regarding this.
2. Linux accessibility: technically, this depends on distributions, their
age, and how well they handle accessibility calls. Linux does have
accessibility API.
3. Security: it may appear to be more secure due to perceived smaller market
share. However, as Spector and Meltdown demonstrates, Linux is prone to
security bugs as well, especially if hardware security is involved. Although
Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux kernel was quoted as saying that
security bugs are bugs, Linux kernel developers and distribution vendors
(such as Canonical, the maker of Ubuntu distribution) takes security
seriously.
4. Market share: on the desktop front, Linux's market share is low. On
mobile, server and IoT (internet of things) front, Linux dominates. Android
is a leader in smartphone ecosystem at the moment, and that is powered by
Linux kernel. Many web servers and other cloud data centers use servers
powered by Linux. Internet of Things devices, firmware for many routers and
so on are built on top of Linux. The thing is, some of them are using
outdated Linux kernel versions, which opens up security issues if not tuned
and updated correctly.
5. You can run command-line Linux distributions on Windows: this is powered
by Windows Subsystem for Linux. At the moment there were reports of limited
success with GUI programs.
For more info on Linux, I recommend joining a list such as those for Orca,
Linux Users Groups and so on.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 8:10 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Is it also possible to install Vocalizer voices on Linux?

Thank you for any possible reply, this OS has always  aroused  my curiousity
and I wish I could learn one day.



Il 22/05/2018 16:58, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
It is called Voxin, and it is at:
https://voxin.oralux.net/
I can give you the terminal commands to get it installed, but like
other
settings, you will have to reinstall it if you are running from a live DVD,
but if you install it on USB with a persistence file, it will stay.
Eventually you will probably put Linux on an old computer or duel-boot
it
with your Windows.
If you download the i386 version, Ubuntu will run well on old machines.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Steve
Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Final question then, where do you get Eloquence for it please? I know
you
have to buy it, and I'm happy to do it, but I really don't like ESpeak.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin,
Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Steve,
Yes it does, and there is a lot of free software available for Linux
as
well.
Once Orca starts, it will bring up Orca preferences and you will want
to
tab through the settings for speed and voices.
I always go to the keyboard tab and turn off the speaking of modifier
keys
and I think the other I turn off is navigation keys, because I don't like
hearing when I press those keys.
Don't change the voice from Default in the voice page without
installing a
new speech engine first.
If you burn it to DVD, the changes won't survive a reboot.
If you burn it to USB and make a persistence file, it will keep your
changes.
It has a terminal that is sort of like working in DOS.
That is how I usually install packages and get updates.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Steve
Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Being very new to Linnux, forgive my seemingly silly question, but
does
that Iso download have Orca built into it then? Can I really press
Windows+S to get speech going on this distro? If so, it may tempt me to
Windows+try
it.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin,
Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find
that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It
comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all
free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much
it is
like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy
&
paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after
it
starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you
can
use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and
you
only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with
the
conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the
web,
but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word
Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing
Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar.
Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in
Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to
unload/dismiss
open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the
conventional
Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed
approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development.
Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability
will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related
activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage
experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support
tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be
able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new
screen
controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown,
and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app
content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to
what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version
1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T
to
open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of
typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets
you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for
things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge
new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the
just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or
Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided
Control+Windows+Shift+that
you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close
an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press
Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser
that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are
nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add
the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will
list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs
and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running
inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps.
You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows
instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in
another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook,
Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and
drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app
tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of
Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a
workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from
Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python
Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python
Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and
how
do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help
with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough
to
matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they
learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted
users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't
have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may
not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough
blind
users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if the
problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with
not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies
even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that
is
working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep
on fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I
have actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft
can
simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7.
They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of
windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into
the keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful.
Fine have
new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their
messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype
have been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting
'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically
if
Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem
to make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win
10 essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try
to isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting
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Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt"
<steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning
- it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a
solid state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react
a bit more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in
file explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows
10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be
reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me
now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



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steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk





















Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Steve Nutt
 

Wow, I wish I could agree with you. Still not enough configuration for me.

NVDA's not bad, but not so usable as JAWS with applications that have
custom interfaces.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: 22 May 2018 16:16
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Thank you for your reply: I think nvda is getting more and more closer to
Jaws and I would dare to say  it is very very good now... I am using it full
time and don't feel the need for Jws at all...

I don't no with specific software, but i know friends of mine who use it at
workplace also, nvda I mean.



Il 22/05/2018 17:07, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
Hi Angela,
I think Linux and Apple both suffer the loss to Microsoft.
Just like with the old video tapes, one has to win out, and it may not be
the best one.
I think that Linux is superior to Windows in many ways, although like
NVDA, Orca is not as robust as JFW.
But most of the software we use in Linux is free.
I think that many of us who are getting Mom & Dad or Grandma and Grandpa
their first computer would do well to get them a computer with Ubuntu,
especially if they are not visually impaired.
They can more safely browse the web and still do their eMail and play
those card games.
Or I think that if they had an XP machine or will soon need to replace
their Windows 7 machine, you can install Ubuntu on that old computer
alongside of their old windows and they will be happy and more secure.
Glenn


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Angela
Delicata
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:59 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glen,

I am very interested: please, speak about linux and how accessible it
is... I have never used it and don't know many blind folks who use this
system... If you say it is so good, I wonder why so  few people use it I
mean I know quite a lot of blind folks and they have  Apple and Windows,
but Linumx is not so much used. Why is is so?

Tell me, i am curious because I would like to learn to use it in the
future.

Thank you so much.

Best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/05/2018 16:21, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find
that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It
comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all
free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it
is like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy &
paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it
starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can
use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you
only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the
conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web,
but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word
Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing
Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar.
Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in
Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss
open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional
Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed
approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development.
Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability
will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related
activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage
experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support
tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be
able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen
controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown,
and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app
content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to
what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version
1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to
open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of
typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets
you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for
things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge
new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the
just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or
Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that
you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close
an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press
Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser
that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are
nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add
the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will
list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs
and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running
inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps.
You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows
instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in
another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook,
Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and
drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app
tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of
Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a
workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from
Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python
Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python
Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how
do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help
with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to
matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they
learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted
users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't
have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may
not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough
blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if
the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt
with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that
justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that is
working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can
simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7.
They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have
new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows
10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their
messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if
Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons
for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win 10
essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting
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in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be
reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me
now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>
steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk


























Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Angela,

This may get off topic for this list, so I suggest that with Glenn's
permission, you write to him directly with questions. I'll do that too, if
that's OK with Glenn, but I'm going to play first.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:59
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glen,

I am very interested: please, speak about linux and how accessible it is...
I have never used it and don't know many blind folks who use this system...
If you say it is so good, I wonder why so  few people use it I mean I know
quite a lot of blind folks and they have  Apple and Windows, but Linumx is
not so much used. Why is is so?

Tell me, i am curious because I would like to learn to use it in the future.

Thank you so much.

Best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/05/2018 16:21, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find
that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It
comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all
free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is
like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy &
paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it
starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can
use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you
only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the
conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web,
but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word
Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing
Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar.
Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in
Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss
open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional
Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed
approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development.
Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability
will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related
activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage
experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support
tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be
able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen
controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown,
and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app
content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to
what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version
1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to
open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of
typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets
you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for
things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge
new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the
just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or
Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that
you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close
an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press
Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser
that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are
nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add
the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will
list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs
and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running
inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps.
You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows
instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in
another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook,
Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and
drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app
tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of
Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a
workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from
Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python
Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python
Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger
Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how
do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help
with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to
matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they
learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted
users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't
have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may
not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind
users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if the
problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with
not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies
even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that is
working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep
on fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I
have actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft
can simply provide a system stable and just with security updates like
windows 7. They are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new
versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into
the keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful.
Fine have new features but do not change the whole concept and still call
it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their
messing about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up
Skype have been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically
if Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem
to make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win
10 essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try
to isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt"
<steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning
- it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a
solid state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react
a bit more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in
file explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows
10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be
reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me
now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>
steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
























Re: Cloning drives

Ervin, Glenn
 

The talking WinPE has programs for this, but I usually do this in Linux, since I think it does a better job.
Linux has a command-line tool built in for this, called DD.
Linux command-line is much like DOS.
If the drive you want to copy is called:
/dev/sda
And the drive you want to copy it to is
/dev/sdc
You would type:
Dd /dev/sda /dev/sdc
If you want to clone a partition into a single file, the command would be:
Dd /dev/sda dev/sdb/myfile.iso
You would not clone a drive onto itself, so you would have to direct it to another drive that is why you might direct it to something like /dev/sdb in that example.
But that is just an example of using the command-line in Linux, it works much like DOS.
But I use the GUI for things like web browsing, and eMail and text editing and manipulating files.
Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 11:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cloning drives

It is but the ones I've used drop into a kind of temporary dos version so
you hear nothing, even errors if you run it.
Some do allow the cloning script to be written in windows and then it runs
in its own Os as neither drive can have a running windows on it during the
process as there is a swap file and other files locked and hence they will
not be faithfully copied unless you exit windows.
I've not tried it lately but it would be nice to know what works for those
with no sight at all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cloning drives


Would acronis work for that? I'm actually not sure if that's available on
PC. Good luck.


On May 22, 2018 6:10:39 AM "juan gonzalez" <jgonzalezh614@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Good day all!
I am looking for software that works with NVDA to clone a hard disk to a
smaller SSD drive. Free would be preferred but if there isn't any than
any
works.


About Linux

Ervin, Glenn
 

Hi,

There are many distro’s of Linux that work with Orca the screenreader, so I don’t want to keep this thread going on this list, since it’s off-topic.

But I will mention that I like Ubuntu and that is the most popular distribution in use over all.

I do subscribe to a Ubuntu list, and there is an Orca list as well.

Folks can eMail me off list for help getting started.

And here is some information on the Ubuntu list.

I suspect that if you follow the link to the Ubuntu list and put subscribe in the subject, you might get subscribed.

It is a low-traffic list.

Info below.

Glenn --

Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list

Ubuntu-accessibility@...

https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility


Re: Cloning drives

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

It is but the ones I've used drop into a kind of temporary dos version so you hear nothing, even errors if you run it.
Some do allow the cloning script to be written in windows and then it runs in its own Os as neither drive can have a running windows on it during the process as there is a swap file and other files locked and hence they will not be faithfully copied unless you exit windows.
I've not tried it lately but it would be nice to know what works for those with no sight at all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cloning drives


Would acronis work for that? I'm actually not sure if that's available on
PC. Good luck.


On May 22, 2018 6:10:39 AM "juan gonzalez" <jgonzalezh614@hotmail.com> wrote:

Good day all!
I am looking for software that works with NVDA to clone a hard disk to a
smaller SSD drive. Free would be preferred but if there isn't any than any
works.


Re: The "Modern" NVDA Sounds

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I always change it to 1 as it can be a bit annoying sometimes
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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Please address personal E-mail to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ervin, Glenn" <glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The "Modern" NVDA Sounds


That is a handy tip for sure, although I have found it not difficult to download, you just open the menu and down arrow to "download".
Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Wells
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 10:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The "Modern" NVDA Sounds

Changing the 0 to a 1 at the end of the link like this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cp1hgcs6ks60px3/NVDA%20new%20waves.zip?dl=1
makes the file easier to download. I got it. Thanks


On 5/22/2018 2:45 AM, Ralf Kefferpuetz wrote:
Here we go:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cp1hgcs6ks60px3/NVDA%20new%20waves.zip?dl=0

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Dienstag, 22. Mai 2018 08:19
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The "Modern" NVDA Sounds

There were a couple of variations on these at the time. Not sure if I still have them here, but if nobody else can lay their hands on them and shove them in dropbox, I'll have a poke about. Incidentally you cannot attach on this list, its either got to be a direct email or a dropbox link for ease of use.
Note that every time nvda gets updated it will overwrite the sounds, so you need to keep the new ones handy.
Brian

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Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Noah Carver via Groups.Io" <ntclists=aol.com@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 1:12 AM
Subject: [nvda] The "Modern" NVDA Sounds


Hi Folks,


Can anyone post the sounds that were in NVDA next snapshots back in 2017?
I much preferred these sounds to the ones packaged with NVDA, and would
like to replace them with the "modern" ones.


Any help would be appreciated.


Noah














Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Jackie
 

Yeah, & this was something I was gonna ask Steve to do, ie, download
frst64.exe & run it so I could see what apps were running. I wanted to
see if a reinstall might help first, though, because Steve doesn't
know me all that well, & the program might provide me w/insights he'd
rather I not have. But it would be interesting to see if perhaps there
were bloat/mal/pup-ware on the machines that was taking up resources.

On 5/22/18, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,

To Steve: thanks for testing this.

To everyone else: Steve’s reply confirms suspicions raised by some folks:
UIA miscommunication. UIA slowing down can be caused by anything, the most
notable ones being a flood of events and a long-running task that blocks UIA
from helping NVDA. I’m thinking that somehow, there are apps that uses a lot
of resources or fires many UIA events to a point UIA stalls. One possible
way to resolve this is closing apps via Task Manager (although that might
not respond well if tasks use a lot of resources).

Regarding this problem, if I remember conversations between developers
correctly (on Gitter), Microsoft and NV Access had many conversations
regarding this matter. Although Microsoft did fix UIA issues in recent
Windows 10 releases, both entities acknowledge that there are problems to be
resolved.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Hi David and Joseph,



Yes, If I type it correctly, as David states, then my Explorer.exe
functionality comes back.



So it has to be a UIA thing.



All the best



Steve



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of David Reynolds
Sent: 21 May 2018 21:30
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Joseph,

You made a typo, it should say:

UIAHandler.terminate()



Cheers,



David.



On 21-May-18 9:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

For those experiencing this problem, can you try the following for me
please:

1. Press Control+NVDA+Z to open Python Console
2. Type the following as exactly as shown:



import UIAHandler

UIAHandler.temrinate()



Then press Escape, and try navigating around File Explorer. Note that this
will turn off UIA support completely, so it’ll mean Start menu and other UIA
controls won’t work.

If you find that this helps NVDA respond better, then we can rule out screen
resolution and other things that has nothing to do with UI Automation and
other causes. If this procedure does not help, then we need to look into
possibly universal apps taking up resources, unresponsive drivers, UIA
getting stuck somewhere and what not.

After you experiment with this, either restart NvDA or restore UIA support
via Python Console. To do this via python Console:

1. Press Control+NvDA+Z to open Python Console.
2. Type the following as exactly as shown:



import UIAHandler

UIAHandler.initialize()



Cheers,

Joseph





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Annette
Moore
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 12:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Unlike Steve, I can get my lists to read after sitting here for a minute or
two or just having one window in focus and not alt tabbing to another one
for a few minutes. It's almost like something has to catch up with what I'm
doing, but it will--eventually--do what it's supposed to. I never came to
the list with this, though, because I just figured it was something with
NVDA that would likely be corrected in another update because it just
recently started doing this and it's not so disruptive that it's rendering
my use of the computer or File Explorer completely impossible. Restarting
NVDA also corrects it, and usually for the rest of the day, it's fine. It
sounds like Steve's having a much worse time with it than I am. Also,
closing and reopening the window you're trying to read lists from helps.
I've done that as well. Maximizing the window will read you the list item in
focus, but if it isn't ready to settle down and behave yet, you have to keep
maximizing the window as you arrow down so it'll read you the list item. It
does move as you arrow down, though; it will move to the next item; it just
won't read you what it is until you maximize the screen. It's really bad
with Dropbox. It's worse with Dropbox than it is with File Explorer. When I
copy and paste something or move something out of a Dropbox folder, I'd
better get up and take a short, two or three-minute break because it's going
to take that long to behave again, and then, once I cloes the Dropbox
window, all is well. I do find, though, that the more windows I have open,
the worse it is, so now I just try to work with two or three open at a time,
and if I can, I close one if I want to open another one. that's probably
just good, practical use of the computer anyway; you don't want to have too
many windows open or it'll start acting funky anyway. If it gets worse, I'll
just reinstall NVDA

Annette



On 5/21/2018 1:15 PM, Gene wrote:

I agree. While certain settings may affect this problem, I doubt that most
of them do, and not all are appropriate for all computers, such as the
resolution. But the reason I'm doubtful that any settings changes will help
is because this is a new problem after the latest Windows update. It sounds
to me like a UIA automation problem, which isn't user correctable.



Gene

----- Original message -----

From: Jackie <mailto:abletec@gmail.com>

Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:10 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



W/all due respect, I will disagree w/some of these last comments. I've
disabled graphics hotkeys, as inadvertently pressing these can cause
display rotation. I'm not sure if that will cause problems w/NVDA if
the display is unintentionally rotated, but I can tell you for certain
sighted folks hate standing on their head to look at the screen. The
resolution should be that supported by the monitor. Mine, for example,
is 1920x1080.

Steve, just out of curiosity, have you tried uninstalling & then
reinstalling NVDA w/the latest update? I'm just wondering if something
may have gotten corrupted here.

On 5/21/18, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@roadrunner.com <mailto:aa2vm@roadrunner.com>
wrote:
Hi Steve,


I am wondering about what settings you have for the File Explorer. I
have noticed that with some settings in Windows/file explorer since
Windows 7, that it doesn't interface well with screen readers. In
particular, if you have under the view menu extra large icons or grid or
something other than list or details checked, you will have problems.
First check the view menu to see that either list or details is checked.


Also make sure that everything under the group by sub menu is
unchecked. If anything is checked under that menu, it can result in
sluggishness and odd behavior.


Also under the graphics options sub menu there are sub menus. Under the
panel options only the display scaling is checked. Under the resolution
sub menu 1024 X 768 is checked. Under the rotaton sub menu, rotate to 0
degrees is checked.

Under the hotkeys and tray icons sub menu, they are both enabled.


Check out these settings and make them conform to the suggestions above
and see if that helps with your file explorer issues.



On 5/21/2018 11:10 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Yep, this pretty much mirrors my experience, although I can never get
NVDA to read the list now.

NVDA is pretty horrible with File Explorer under Windows 10, and it’s
got worse with this build.

All the best

Steve

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > *On Behalf Of
*Annette Moore
*Sent:* 20 May 2018 20:15
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I just close file explorer and reopen it when it starts acting funky.
either that, or I shut down NVDA and restart it. Alternatively, I can
sit here and stare at the computer for a few minutes, until it decides
to behave itself, which it does eventually do. It has to be an NVDA
thing, though, because it doesn't do this with System Access at all. I
have trouble alt tabbing between windows when it wants to act up, and
then I have trouble going through list items. It's like the cursor
doesn't want to move through them but it actually does; it's just NVDA
isn't reading me the items. I also find that if I have more than, say,
two or three windows open and I close one of them, it starts working
fine again. It's random, though, so I never know when it's going to
misbehave. It's not aggravating enough to make me switch screen
readers, though. I just figure it'll be fixed in a future update and
go with it.

Annette

On 5/20/2018 11:36 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

So I wonder what is the determining factor then?

All the best


Steve

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
*Greg Wocher
*Sent:* 20 May 2018 17:14
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hello,

I am running the latest version of NVDA on my HP laptop and I do
not have any issues using NVDA with file explorer. I am also using
the 1803 Windows update.

Greg Wocher

On May 20, 2018, at 7:00 AM, Steve Nutt <steve@comproom.co.uk
<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>
<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>> wrote:

I’m assuming you haven’t tried it in the File Explorer app
then? That’s the bug I was reporting.

All the best


Steve

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io%3E%3Cnvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io%3E%3E*On>
*On Behalf Of*Sarah k Alawami
*Sent:*18 May 2018 21:28
*To:*nvda list list <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
*Subject:*Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10
1803

I can't remember if I replied or not but lists are fine in the
explorer.exe app. I'm so far knock on wood not having any
issues as far as I can see, except for obs but that's probably
a broken app.



On May 16, 2018, at 1:03 AM, Steve Nutt
<steve@comproom.co.uk <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>
<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>> wrote:

Hi,

I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not
reading for me.

It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don’t seem
to be reading. For example, File Explorer in Windows 10
is completely silent for me now.

JAWS is reading lists quite happily.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

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Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email:steve@comproom.co.uk
<mailto:Email:steve@comproom.co.uk> <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>

Web:http://www.comproom.co.uk <http://www.comproom.co.uk/>

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com










--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com


Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Hi all,

To Steve: thanks for testing this.

To everyone else: Steve’s reply confirms suspicions raised by some folks: UIA miscommunication. UIA slowing down can be caused by anything, the most notable ones being a flood of events and a long-running task that blocks UIA from helping NVDA. I’m thinking that somehow, there are apps that uses a lot of resources or fires many UIA events to a point UIA stalls. One possible way to resolve this is closing apps via Task Manager (although that might not respond well if tasks use a lot of resources).

Regarding this problem, if I remember conversations between developers correctly (on Gitter), Microsoft and NV Access had many conversations regarding this matter. Although Microsoft did fix UIA issues in recent Windows 10 releases, both entities acknowledge that there are problems to be resolved.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Hi David and Joseph,

 

Yes, If I type it correctly, as David states, then my Explorer.exe functionality comes back.

 

So it has to be a UIA thing.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Reynolds
Sent: 21 May 2018 21:30
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Joseph,

You made a typo, it should say:

UIAHandler.terminate()

 

Cheers,

 

David.

 

On 21-May-18 9:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

For those experiencing this problem, can you try the following for me please:

  1. Press Control+NVDA+Z to open Python Console
  2. Type the following as exactly as shown:

 

import UIAHandler

UIAHandler.temrinate()

 

Then press Escape, and try navigating around File Explorer. Note that this will turn off UIA support completely, so it’ll mean Start menu and other UIA controls won’t work.

If you find that this helps NVDA respond better, then we can rule out screen resolution and other things that has nothing to do with UI Automation and other causes. If this procedure does not help, then we need to look into possibly universal apps taking up resources, unresponsive drivers, UIA getting stuck somewhere and what not.

After you experiment with this, either restart NvDA or restore UIA support via Python Console. To do this via python Console:

  1. Press Control+NvDA+Z to open Python Console.
  2. Type the following as exactly as shown:

 

import UIAHandler

UIAHandler.initialize()

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Annette Moore
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 12:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Unlike Steve, I can get my lists to read after sitting here for a minute or two or just having one window in focus and not alt tabbing to another one for a few minutes. It's almost like something has to catch up with what I'm doing, but it will--eventually--do what it's supposed to. I never came to the list with this, though, because I just figured it was something with NVDA that would likely be corrected in another update because it just recently started doing this and it's not so disruptive that it's rendering my use of the computer or File Explorer completely impossible. Restarting NVDA also corrects it, and usually for the rest of the day, it's fine. It sounds like Steve's having a much worse time with it than I am. Also, closing and reopening the window you're trying to read lists from helps. I've done that as well. Maximizing the window will read you the list item in focus, but if it isn't ready to settle down and behave yet, you have to keep maximizing the window as you arrow down so it'll read you the list item. It does move as you arrow down, though; it will move to the next item; it just won't read you what it is until you maximize the screen. It's really bad with Dropbox. It's worse with Dropbox than it is with File Explorer. When I copy and paste something or move something out of a Dropbox folder, I'd better get up and take a short, two or three-minute break because it's going to take that long to behave again, and then, once I cloes the Dropbox window, all is well. I do find, though, that the more windows I have open, the worse it is, so now I just try to work with two or three open at a time, and if I can, I close one if I want to open another one. that's probably just good, practical use of the computer anyway; you don't want to have too many windows open or it'll start acting funky anyway. If it gets worse, I'll just reinstall NVDA

Annette

 

On 5/21/2018 1:15 PM, Gene wrote:

I agree.  While certain settings may affect this problem, I doubt that most of them do, and not all are appropriate for all computers, such as the resolution.  But the reason I'm doubtful that any settings changes will help is because this is a new problem after the latest Windows update.  It sounds to me like a UIA automation problem, which isn't user correctable. 

 

Gene

----- Original message -----

From: Jackie

Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:10 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

W/all due respect, I will disagree w/some of these last comments. I've
disabled graphics hotkeys, as inadvertently pressing these can cause
display rotation. I'm not sure if that will cause problems w/NVDA if
the display is unintentionally rotated, but I can tell you for certain
sighted folks hate standing on their head to look at the screen. The
resolution should be that supported by the monitor. Mine, for example,
is 1920x1080.

Steve, just out of curiosity, have you tried uninstalling & then
reinstalling NVDA w/the latest update? I'm just wondering if something
may have gotten corrupted here.

On 5/21/18, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>
>
> I am wondering about what settings you have for the File Explorer.  I
> have noticed that with some settings in Windows/file explorer since
> Windows 7, that it doesn't interface well with screen readers.  In
> particular, if you have under the view menu extra large icons or grid or
> something other than list or details checked, you will have problems.
> First check the view menu to see that either list or details is checked.
>
>
> Also make sure that everything under the group by sub menu is
> unchecked.  If anything is checked under that menu, it can result in
> sluggishness and odd behavior.
>
>
> Also under the graphics options sub menu there are sub menus. Under the
> panel options only the display scaling is checked. Under the resolution
> sub menu 1024 X 768 is checked. Under the rotaton sub menu, rotate to 0
> degrees is checked.
>
> Under the hotkeys and tray icons sub menu, they are both enabled.
>
>
> Check out these settings and make them conform to the suggestions above
> and see if that helps with your file explorer issues.
>
>
>
> On 5/21/2018 11:10 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>
>> Yep, this pretty much mirrors my experience, although I can never get
>> NVDA to read the list now.
>>
>> NVDA is pretty horrible with File Explorer under Windows 10, and it’s
>> got worse with this build.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
>> *Annette Moore
>> *Sent:* 20 May 2018 20:15
>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>> I just close file explorer and reopen it when it starts acting funky.
>> either that, or I shut down NVDA and restart it. Alternatively, I can
>> sit here and stare at the computer for a few minutes, until it decides
>> to behave itself, which it does eventually do. It has to be an NVDA
>> thing, though, because it doesn't do this with System Access at all. I
>> have trouble alt tabbing between windows when it wants to act up, and
>> then I have trouble going through list items. It's like the cursor
>> doesn't want to move through them but it actually does; it's just NVDA
>> isn't reading me the items. I also find that if I have more than, say,
>> two or three windows open and I close one of them, it starts working
>> fine again. It's random, though, so I never know when it's going to
>> misbehave. It's not aggravating enough to make me switch screen
>> readers, though. I just figure it'll be fixed in a future update and
>> go with it.
>>
>> Annette
>>
>> On 5/20/2018 11:36 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>
>>     So I wonder what is the determining factor then?
>>
>>     All the best
>>
>>
>>     Steve
>>
>>     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>     <nvda@nvda.groups.io> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
>>     *Greg Wocher
>>     *Sent:* 20 May 2018 17:14
>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>>     Hello,
>>
>>     I am running the latest version of NVDA on my HP laptop and I do
>>     not have any issues using NVDA with file explorer. I am also using
>>     the 1803 Windows update.
>>
>>     Greg Wocher
>>
>>         On May 20, 2018, at 7:00 AM, Steve Nutt <steve@...
>>         <mailto:steve@...>> wrote:
>>
>>         I’m assuming you haven’t tried it in the File Explorer app
>>         then?  That’s the bug I was reporting.
>>
>>         All the best
>>
>>
>>         Steve
>>
>>         *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io><nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>*On Behalf Of*Sarah k Alawami
>>         *Sent:*18 May 2018 21:28
>>         *To:*nvda list list <nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>         <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
>>         *Subject:*Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10
>> 1803
>>
>>         I can't remember if I replied or not but lists are fine in the
>>         explorer.exe app. I'm so far knock on wood not having any
>>         issues as far as I can see, except for obs but that's probably
>>         a broken app.
>>
>>
>>
>>             On May 16, 2018, at 1:03 AM, Steve Nutt
>>             <steve@... <mailto:steve@...>> wrote:
>>
>>             Hi,
>>
>>             I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not
>>             reading for me.
>>
>>             It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don’t seem
>>             to be reading.  For example, File Explorer in Windows 10
>>             is completely silent for me now.
>>
>>             JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>
>>             Any thoughts?
>>
>>             Thanks.
>>
>>             All the best
>>
>>             Steve
>>
>>             --
>>
>>             Computer Room Services
>>
>>             77 Exeter Close
>>
>>             Stevenage
>>
>>             Hertfordshire
>>
>>             SG1 4PW
>>
>>             Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>
>>             Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>
>>             Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>
>>             Email:steve@... <mailto:steve@...>
>>
>>             Web:http://www.comproom.co.uk <http://www.comproom.co.uk/>
>>
>>
>
> --
> They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
> They ask: "How Happy are You?"
> I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
>
>


--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com


 

 


Re: The "Modern" NVDA Sounds

Ervin, Glenn
 

That is a handy tip for sure, although I have found it not difficult to download, you just open the menu and down arrow to "download".
Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Wells
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 10:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The "Modern" NVDA Sounds

Changing the 0 to a 1 at the end of the link like this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cp1hgcs6ks60px3/NVDA%20new%20waves.zip?dl=1
makes the file easier to download. I got it. Thanks


On 5/22/2018 2:45 AM, Ralf Kefferpuetz wrote:
Here we go:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cp1hgcs6ks60px3/NVDA%20new%20waves.zip?dl=0

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Dienstag, 22. Mai 2018 08:19
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The "Modern" NVDA Sounds

There were a couple of variations on these at the time. Not sure if I still have them here, but if nobody else can lay their hands on them and shove them in dropbox, I'll have a poke about. Incidentally you cannot attach on this list, its either got to be a direct email or a dropbox link for ease of use.
Note that every time nvda gets updated it will overwrite the sounds, so you need to keep the new ones handy.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noah Carver via Groups.Io" <ntclists=aol.com@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 1:12 AM
Subject: [nvda] The "Modern" NVDA Sounds


Hi Folks,


Can anyone post the sounds that were in NVDA next snapshots back in 2017?
I much preferred these sounds to the ones packaged with NVDA, and would
like to replace them with the "modern" ones.


Any help would be appreciated.


Noah









Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Ervin, Glenn
 

Gene,

Your information is very old.

I have never had lack of sound on any computer I have booted it up to, and I have installed it on countless computers.

Orca is more like NVDA in usage than it is like JFW, so users here will like that.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 10:24 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

I haven't followed Linux to any extent but my impression is that it is for those who have a certain amount of technical knowledge because things aren't plug and play, as In Windows.  Further, my impression is that more setup has to be done of things like sound cards.  Also, I've seen comments that screen-reader development isn't as advanced as Windows screen-reader development. 

 

As I said, I haven't followed Linux to any extent, but before people spend time with it, I think a serious discussion of it's benefits and drawbacks is in order. 

 

I'd like to see some specifics such as, do quick navigation keys exist for Internet page navigation and how easy it is to set up a sound card and a scanner. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Hi Glen,

I am very interested: please, speak about linux and how accessible it
is... I have never used it and don't know many blind folks who use this
system... If you say it is so good, I wonder why so  few people use it I
mean I know quite a lot of blind folks and they have  Apple and Windows,
but Linumx is not so much used. Why is is so?

Tell me, i am curious because I would like to learn to use it in the future.

Thank you so much.

Best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/05/2018 16:21, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
> I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find that they like Linux.
> I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA.  It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.
> You can download an ISO image here:
> https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
> and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.
> I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
> It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.
> It is more secure than Windows for sure.
> It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.
> I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
> After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
> Glenn
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
> Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?
>
>
>
> The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.
>
>
>
> So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.
>
>
>
> Is that what the future holds for Windows users?
>
>
>
> Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.
>
> On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
> Hi Roger and others,
> I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
> The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:
>
> A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.
>
> When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).
>
> While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.
>
> To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.
>
> You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.
>
> But that's not all Sets can do and change:
>
>
>    *   In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
>    *   When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
>    *   You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.
>
> There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:
>
>
>    *   Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
>    *   Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
>    *   Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
>    *   Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.
>
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on?  Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Roger
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
> That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter.  A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users.  and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems.  Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default.  As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.
>
> But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10.  Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.
>
> I'll get it when I get a new computer.  I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io<mailto:bglists@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
> fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
> actually given  up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
> provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
> are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
> every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
> keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
> features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
> that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
> about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
> been let loose on the innards of Windows!
>   Hides behind sofa.  Brian
>
> bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal E-mail to:-
> briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>> Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
>> 10 is detected?  New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
>> addons
>> for their screen reader.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
>> Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
>> make much difference.
>>
>> I must play a bit more.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
>> list account via Groups.Io
>> Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>> I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the  version of win 10
>> essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
>> If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
>> isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
>> Brian
>>
>> bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
>> Sent via blueyonder.
>> Please address personal E-mail to:-
>> briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
>> in the display name field.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>>
>>> Hi Jacob,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have three machines here, all on 1803.  None of them work at all
>>> well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
>>> unusable, as is Outlook.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well.  But I don't know why
>>> NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
>>> Kruger
>>> Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
>>> it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
>>> 1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
>>> hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
>>> state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
>>> more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
>>> explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
>>> 1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Stay well
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jacob Kruger
>>> Blind Biker
>>> Skype: BlindZA
>>> "Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."
>>>
>>> On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
>>> For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Computer Room Services
>>>
>>> 77 Exeter Close
>>>
>>> Stevenage
>>>
>>> Hertfordshire
>>>
>>> SG1 4PW
>>>
>>> Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>>
>>> Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>>
>>> Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>>
>>> Email:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...<mailto:steve@...>
>>>
>>> Web:  <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



Re: The "Modern" NVDA Sounds

Richard Wells
 

Changing the 0 to a 1 at the end of the link like this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cp1hgcs6ks60px3/NVDA%20new%20waves.zip?dl=1 makes the file easier to download. I got it. Thanks

On 5/22/2018 2:45 AM, Ralf Kefferpuetz wrote:
Here we go:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cp1hgcs6ks60px3/NVDA%20new%20waves.zip?dl=0

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Dienstag, 22. Mai 2018 08:19
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The "Modern" NVDA Sounds

There were a couple of variations on these at the time. Not sure if I still have them here, but if nobody else can lay their hands on them and shove them in dropbox, I'll have a poke about. Incidentally you cannot attach on this list, its either got to be a direct email or a dropbox link for ease of use.
Note that every time nvda gets updated it will overwrite the sounds, so you need to keep the new ones handy.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noah Carver via Groups.Io" <ntclists=aol.com@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 1:12 AM
Subject: [nvda] The "Modern" NVDA Sounds


Hi Folks,


Can anyone post the sounds that were in NVDA next snapshots back in 2017?
I much preferred these sounds to the ones packaged with NVDA, and would
like to replace them with the "modern" ones.


Any help would be appreciated.


Noah








Re: Cloning drives

Sarah k Alawami
 

Would acronis work for that? I'm actually not sure if that's available on PC. Good luck.

On May 22, 2018 6:10:39 AM "juan gonzalez" <jgonzalezh614@...> wrote:

Good day all!

I am looking for software that works with NVDA to clone a hard disk to a smaller SSD drive. Free would be preferred but if there isn’t any than any works.


Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Hi,

Microsoft cannot give up desktop interface for two reasons:

  1. Enterprise customers: there is a highly specialized version of Windows 10 Enterprise (which costs a lot) that does not use Microsoft Edge in many places. This is also the case for Windows Server Desktop Experience installations (for Server 2016 and Server 2019). These releases are provided to enterprise customers in order to make it more suitable for running mission critical software that should run well.
  2. Familiarity and uproar: Microsoft doesn’t want to repeat the same mistake from 2012 when visible Start button was removed. In fact, in recent Windows Insider Preview builds (Redstone 5), a tool tip was added to Start button.

 

As for Edge becoming the gateway to app interfaces: not exactly, I think. Although Edge could serve as an app interface container, support for this will ultimately come from apps themselves, hence ability to turn off Sets in Insider Preview builds (and let me repeat: Sets isn’t part of Version 1803 at all). Certain apps are known for not supporting Sets, and even some NVDA user interface windows does not work with this.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 3:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?

 

The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.

 

So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.

 

Is that what the future holds for Windows users?

 

Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

 

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi Roger and others,

I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)…

The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

 

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you’ll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

 

When you run an app with Sets on, you’ll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

 

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new “tab”. This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

 

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.

 

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you’re using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.

 

But that’s not all Sets can do and change:

 

  • In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
  • When you pres Alt+Tab, you’ll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
  • You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

 

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:

 

  • Tabbed File Explorer: you’ll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
  • Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
  • Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
  • Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you’ll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA’s own Python Console and the other one could be an app you’re actively testing.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on?  Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility? 

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:

That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter.  A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users.  and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems.  Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default.  As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

 

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10.  Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

 

I'll get it when I get a new computer.  I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given  up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
 Hides behind sofa.  Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


> Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
> 10 is detected?  New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
> addons
> for their screen reader.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
> Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> Hi,
>
> I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
> make much difference.
>
> I must play a bit more.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
> list account via Groups.Io
> Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the  version of win 10
> essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
> If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
> isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal E-mail to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>> Hi Jacob,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have three machines here, all on 1803.  None of them work at all
>> well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
>> unusable, as is Outlook.
>>
>>
>>
>> At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well.  But I don't know why
>> NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jacob
>> Kruger
>> Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
>> it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
>> 1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
>> hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
>> state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
>> more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
>> explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
>> 1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stay well
>>
>>
>>
>> Jacob Kruger
>> Blind Biker
>> Skype: BlindZA
>> "Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."
>>
>> On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
>> For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.
>>
>>
>>
>> JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Computer Room Services
>>
>> 77 Exeter Close
>>
>> Stevenage
>>
>> Hertfordshire
>>
>> SG1 4PW
>>
>> Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>
>> Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>
>> Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>
>> Email:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...
>>
>> Web:  <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



 

 


Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Antony Stone
 

It probably isn't possible to install Vocalizer voices under Linux, but there
are other voices available which can't be installed under Windows, so if
you're considering Linux with speech output, it's important to find out what is
available on Linux rather than just asking "can I do the same thing under
Linux as I'm used to with Windows?"

The voices I'm thinking of specifically are Festival with Mbrola, for example.
There are probably others I can't think of just for the time being.


Antony.

On Tuesday 22 May 2018 at 17:25:58, Rui Fontes wrote:

As far as I know, it is not possible.

Rui

Às 16:09 de 22/05/2018, Angela Delicata escreveu:
Is it also possible to install Vocalizer voices on Linux?

Thank you for any possible reply, this OS has always aroused my
curiousity and I wish I could learn one day.

Il 22/05/2018 16:58, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
It is called Voxin, and it is at:
https://voxin.oralux.net/
I can give you the terminal commands to get it installed, but like
other settings, you will have to reinstall it if you are running from
a live DVD, but if you install it on USB with a persistence file, it
will stay.
Eventually you will probably put Linux on an old computer or duel-boot
it with your Windows.
If you download the i386 version, Ubuntu will run well on old machines.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Final question then, where do you get Eloquence for it please? I know
you have to buy it, and I'm happy to do it, but I really don't like
ESpeak.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin,
Glenn Sent: 22 May 2018 15:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Steve,
Yes it does, and there is a lot of free software available for Linux
as well.
Once Orca starts, it will bring up Orca preferences and you will want
to tab through the settings for speed and voices.
I always go to the keyboard tab and turn off the speaking of modifier
keys and I think the other I turn off is navigation keys, because I
don't like hearing when I press those keys.
Don't change the voice from Default in the voice page without
installing a new speech engine first.
If you burn it to DVD, the changes won't survive a reboot.
If you burn it to USB and make a persistence file, it will keep your
changes.
It has a terminal that is sort of like working in DOS.
That is how I usually install packages and get updates.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Being very new to Linnux, forgive my seemingly silly question, but
does that Iso download have Orca built into it then? Can I really
press Windows+S to get speech going on this distro? If so, it may
tempt me to try it.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin,
Glenn Sent: 22 May 2018 15:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find
that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It
comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is
all free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much
it is like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy
& paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after
it starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you
can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and
you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without
installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Kenny Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with
the conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the
web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks
(Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more
minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to
Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that
occurs in Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to
unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the
conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're
taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface
this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development.
Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature
availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related
activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage
experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does
support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major
way: you'll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new
screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will
be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs.
The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge
container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain
apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T
to open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge)
consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana
search box that lets you search for things such as another app to
open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to
open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app
screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be
listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or
Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided
that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key.
To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in
one go, press Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser
that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs
are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you
would add the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will
list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge
tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps
running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching
between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle
between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set
will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in
another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook,
Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new
Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders
and drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an
app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a
collection of Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a
workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results
from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python
Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own
Python Console and the other one could be an app you're actively
testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger
Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and
how do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does
it help with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough
to matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until
they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by
sighted users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted
people wouldn't have any of those problems. Also, as in the new
feature of sets, they may not be on by default. As I recall what I
read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough
blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10.
Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems
that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has
nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences
time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that
is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can
simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7.
They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of
windows every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows
7 into the keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more
careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows
10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their
messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype
have been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting
'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically
if Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons
for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem
to make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win 10
essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for
me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be
reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me
now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve




Computer Room Services

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steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk


Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Hi all,
A few things:
1. Vocalizer: depends on what Nuance would say regarding this.
2. Linux accessibility: technically, this depends on distributions, their
age, and how well they handle accessibility calls. Linux does have
accessibility API.
3. Security: it may appear to be more secure due to perceived smaller market
share. However, as Spector and Meltdown demonstrates, Linux is prone to
security bugs as well, especially if hardware security is involved. Although
Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux kernel was quoted as saying that
security bugs are bugs, Linux kernel developers and distribution vendors
(such as Canonical, the maker of Ubuntu distribution) takes security
seriously.
4. Market share: on the desktop front, Linux's market share is low. On
mobile, server and IoT (internet of things) front, Linux dominates. Android
is a leader in smartphone ecosystem at the moment, and that is powered by
Linux kernel. Many web servers and other cloud data centers use servers
powered by Linux. Internet of Things devices, firmware for many routers and
so on are built on top of Linux. The thing is, some of them are using
outdated Linux kernel versions, which opens up security issues if not tuned
and updated correctly.
5. You can run command-line Linux distributions on Windows: this is powered
by Windows Subsystem for Linux. At the moment there were reports of limited
success with GUI programs.
For more info on Linux, I recommend joining a list such as those for Orca,
Linux Users Groups and so on.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 8:10 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Is it also possible to install Vocalizer voices on Linux?

Thank you for any possible reply, this OS has always  aroused  my curiousity
and I wish I could learn one day.



Il 22/05/2018 16:58, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
It is called Voxin, and it is at:
https://voxin.oralux.net/
I can give you the terminal commands to get it installed, but like other
settings, you will have to reinstall it if you are running from a live DVD,
but if you install it on USB with a persistence file, it will stay.
Eventually you will probably put Linux on an old computer or duel-boot it
with your Windows.
If you download the i386 version, Ubuntu will run well on old machines.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Final question then, where do you get Eloquence for it please? I know you
have to buy it, and I'm happy to do it, but I really don't like ESpeak.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Steve,
Yes it does, and there is a lot of free software available for Linux as
well.
Once Orca starts, it will bring up Orca preferences and you will want to
tab through the settings for speed and voices.
I always go to the keyboard tab and turn off the speaking of modifier keys
and I think the other I turn off is navigation keys, because I don't like
hearing when I press those keys.
Don't change the voice from Default in the voice page without installing a
new speech engine first.
If you burn it to DVD, the changes won't survive a reboot.
If you burn it to USB and make a persistence file, it will keep your
changes.
It has a terminal that is sort of like working in DOS.
That is how I usually install packages and get updates.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Being very new to Linnux, forgive my seemingly silly question, but does
that Iso download have Orca built into it then? Can I really press
Windows+S to get speech going on this distro? If so, it may tempt me to try
it.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find
that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It
comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all
free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is
like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy &
paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it
starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can
use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you
only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the
conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web,
but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word
Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing
Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar.
Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in
Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss
open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional
Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed
approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development.
Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability
will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related
activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage
experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support
tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be
able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen
controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown,
and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app
content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to
what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version
1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to
open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of
typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets
you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for
things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge
new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the
just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or
Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that
you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close
an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press
Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser
that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are
nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add
the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will
list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs
and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running
inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps.
You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows
instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in
another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook,
Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and
drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app
tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of
Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a
workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from
Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python
Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python
Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how
do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help
with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to
matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they
learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted
users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't
have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may
not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind
users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if the
problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with
not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies
even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that is
working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can
simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7.
They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have
new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their
messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if
Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons
for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win 10
essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be
reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me
now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>
steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk





















Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Rui Fontes
 

As far as I know, it is not possible.

Rui


Às 16:09 de 22/05/2018, Angela Delicata escreveu:

Is it also possible to install Vocalizer voices on Linux?
Thank you for any possible reply, this OS has always  aroused  my curiousity and I wish I could learn one day.
Il 22/05/2018 16:58, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
It is called Voxin, and it is at:
https://voxin.oralux.net/
I can give you the terminal commands to get it installed, but like other settings, you will have to reinstall it if you are running from a live DVD, but if you install it on USB with a persistence file, it will stay.
Eventually you will probably put Linux on an old computer or duel-boot it with your Windows.
If you download the i386 version, Ubuntu will run well on old machines.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Final question then, where do you get Eloquence for it please?  I know you have to buy it, and I'm happy to do it, but I really don't like ESpeak.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Steve,
Yes it does, and there is a lot of free software available for Linux as well.
Once Orca starts, it will bring up Orca preferences and you will want to tab through the settings for speed and voices.
I always go to the keyboard tab and turn off the speaking of modifier keys and I think the other I turn off is navigation keys, because I don't like hearing when I press those keys.
Don't change the voice from Default in the voice page without installing a new speech engine first.
If you burn it to DVD, the changes won't survive a reboot.
If you burn it to USB and make a persistence file, it will keep your changes.
It has a terminal that is sort of like working in DOS.
That is how I usually install packages and get updates.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Being very new to Linnux, forgive my seemingly silly question, but does that Iso download have Orca built into it then?  Can I really press Windows+S to get speech going on this distro?  If so, it may tempt me to try it.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA.  It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


   *   In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
   *   When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
   *   You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


   *   Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
   *   Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
   *   Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
   *   Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on?  Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter.  A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users.  and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems.  Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default.  As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer.  I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given  up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
  Hides behind sofa.  Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
10 is detected?  New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons
for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the  version of win 10
essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803.  None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well.  But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email:  <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk> steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>

Web:  <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk





















Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Gene
 

I haven't followed Linux to any extent but my impression is that it is for those who have a certain amount of technical knowledge because things aren't plug and play, as In Windows.  Further, my impression is that more setup has to be done of things like sound cards.  Also, I've seen comments that screen-reader development isn't as advanced as Windows screen-reader development. 
 
As I said, I haven't followed Linux to any extent, but before people spend time with it, I think a serious discussion of it's benefits and drawbacks is in order. 
 
I'd like to see some specifics such as, do quick navigation keys exist for Internet page navigation and how easy it is to set up a sound card and a scanner. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glen,

I am very interested: please, speak about linux and how accessible it
is... I have never used it and don't know many blind folks who use this
system... If you say it is so good, I wonder why so  few people use it I
mean I know quite a lot of blind folks and they have  Apple and Windows,
but Linumx is not so much used. Why is is so?

Tell me, i am curious because I would like to learn to use it in the future.

Thank you so much.

Best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/05/2018 16:21, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
> I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find that they like Linux.
> I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA.  It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.
> You can download an ISO image here:
> https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
> and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.
> I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
> It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.
> It is more secure than Windows for sure.
> It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.
> I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
> After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
> Glenn
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
> Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?
>
>
>
> The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.
>
>
>
> So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.
>
>
>
> Is that what the future holds for Windows users?
>
>
>
> Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.
>
> On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
> Hi Roger and others,
> I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
> The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:
>
> A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.
>
> When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).
>
> While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.
>
> To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.
>
> You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.
>
> But that's not all Sets can do and change:
>
>
>    *   In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
>    *   When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
>    *   You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.
>
> There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:
>
>
>    *   Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
>    *   Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
>    *   Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
>    *   Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.
>
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on?  Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Roger
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
> That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter.  A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users.  and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems.  Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default.  As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.
>
> But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10.  Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.
>
> I'll get it when I get a new computer.  I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io<mailto:bglists@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
> fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
> actually given  up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
> provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
> are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
> every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
> keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
> features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
> that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
> about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
> been let loose on the innards of Windows!
>   Hides behind sofa.  Brian
>
> bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal E-mail to:-
> briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>> Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
>> 10 is detected?  New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
>> addons
>> for their screen reader.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
>> Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
>> make much difference.
>>
>> I must play a bit more.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
>> list account via Groups.Io
>> Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>> I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the  version of win 10
>> essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
>> If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
>> isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
>> Brian
>>
>> bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
>> Sent via blueyonder.
>> Please address personal E-mail to:-
>> briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
>> in the display name field.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>>
>>> Hi Jacob,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have three machines here, all on 1803.  None of them work at all
>>> well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
>>> unusable, as is Outlook.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well.  But I don't know why
>>> NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
>>> Kruger
>>> Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
>>> it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
>>> 1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
>>> hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
>>> state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
>>> more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
>>> explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
>>> 1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Stay well
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jacob Kruger
>>> Blind Biker
>>> Skype: BlindZA
>>> "Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."
>>>
>>> On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
>>> For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Computer Room Services
>>>
>>> 77 Exeter Close
>>>
>>> Stevenage
>>>
>>> Hertfordshire
>>>
>>> SG1 4PW
>>>
>>> Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>>
>>> Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>>
>>> Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>>
>>> Email:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...<mailto:steve@...>
>>>
>>> Web:  <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Ervin, Glenn
 

I could not comment on other voices, I know that there are others, like Festival and some more that I don't recall.
I would guess you can contact the makers of a voice and see if they have a Linux version.
HTH.
Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 10:10 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Is it also possible to install Vocalizer voices on Linux?

Thank you for any possible reply, this OS has always  aroused  my
curiousity and I wish I could learn one day.



Il 22/05/2018 16:58, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
It is called Voxin, and it is at:
https://voxin.oralux.net/
I can give you the terminal commands to get it installed, but like other settings, you will have to reinstall it if you are running from a live DVD, but if you install it on USB with a persistence file, it will stay.
Eventually you will probably put Linux on an old computer or duel-boot it with your Windows.
If you download the i386 version, Ubuntu will run well on old machines.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Final question then, where do you get Eloquence for it please? I know you have to buy it, and I'm happy to do it, but I really don't like ESpeak.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Steve,
Yes it does, and there is a lot of free software available for Linux as well.
Once Orca starts, it will bring up Orca preferences and you will want to tab through the settings for speed and voices.
I always go to the keyboard tab and turn off the speaking of modifier keys and I think the other I turn off is navigation keys, because I don't like hearing when I press those keys.
Don't change the voice from Default in the voice page without installing a new speech engine first.
If you burn it to DVD, the changes won't survive a reboot.
If you burn it to USB and make a persistence file, it will keep your changes.
It has a terminal that is sort of like working in DOS.
That is how I usually install packages and get updates.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Being very new to Linnux, forgive my seemingly silly question, but does that Iso download have Orca built into it then? Can I really press Windows+S to get speech going on this distro? If so, it may tempt me to try it.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons
for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win 10
essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk> steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk





















Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Angela Delicata
 

Thank you for your reply: I think nvda is getting more and more closer to Jaws and I would dare to say  it is very very good now... I am using it full time and don't feel the need for Jws at all...

I don't no with specific software, but i know friends of mine who use it at workplace also, nvda I mean.

Il 22/05/2018 17:07, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
Hi Angela,
I think Linux and Apple both suffer the loss to Microsoft.
Just like with the old video tapes, one has to win out, and it may not be the best one.
I think that Linux is superior to Windows in many ways, although like NVDA, Orca is not as robust as JFW.
But most of the software we use in Linux is free.
I think that many of us who are getting Mom & Dad or Grandma and Grandpa their first computer would do well to get them a computer with Ubuntu, especially if they are not visually impaired.
They can more safely browse the web and still do their eMail and play those card games.
Or I think that if they had an XP machine or will soon need to replace their Windows 7 machine, you can install Ubuntu on that old computer alongside of their old windows and they will be happy and more secure.
Glenn


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:59 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glen,

I am very interested: please, speak about linux and how accessible it
is... I have never used it and don't know many blind folks who use this
system... If you say it is so good, I wonder why so  few people use it I
mean I know quite a lot of blind folks and they have  Apple and Windows,
but Linumx is not so much used. Why is is so?

Tell me, i am curious because I would like to learn to use it in the future.

Thank you so much.

Best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/05/2018 16:21, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons
for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win 10
essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



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