Date   

Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 04:05 PM, Cearbhall O'Meadhra wrote:
What has this to do with the subject line?
-
Nothing.  This topic ceased to be an Admin Notice a long while back, and was granted what I'll call a "meta discussion exemption" by the group owner.  I posted earlier exactly where that was.

Anyone reading messages on this topic over the last several days should recognize this by now.  It's staying titled as it is because it allows those who aren't interested to mute it with ease.

This is the very rarest of exceptions where an off-topic meta discussion has been allowed, and only on this topic.  We would have devolved into the "everything except NVDA group" had all the things discussed so far been spun off into their own off-topic topics.

So, those who want to continue with the meta discussion should keep reading and/or posting.  Those who don't should hit the Mute this Topic link.  It will eventually die off as all topics do.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: possible bug with Numpad Nav Mode add-on

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

What makes you say that? With every other screen reader I've used, it
doesn't matter which arrow key I use. Why should NVDA be any different
with the appropriate add-on?

On 1/4/21, Andre Fisher <andrefisher729@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi.

Seems like a Windows bug.






Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

There is a reason Brian is a voice in the wilderness and he stated it in his.  He said that as long as people don't let it be known that it is an imposition and annoyance to have people ask questions without searching, nothing will change.


The reason people don't make an issue of this on such lists is because they know and many may have experienced, many of the reasons more blind people don't know how to search.  They have received poor training, they may only have very limited interested in what they want to use their computers for, they may be learning but not to the point of knowing how to use the Internet well, there are all sorts of reasons.


I know Brian is willing to teach people but if all those who want to ask questions and don't know how to teach asked for such teaching, the demand would be enormous.


Gene

-----Original Message-----
We've all heard the possibly apocryphal Chinese adage, "Give a man fish and feed him for a day; teach him how to fish and feed him for life."
In many of these "pushback" exchanges, the pusher isn't teaching this person how to fish at all; they're just scolding them and sending them away for being piss-poor fishermen. For the most part, most blind people understand how painful it is to be dependent, especially if they've lost their sight later in life and were fiercely independent while sighted. They feel awful about having to ask simple questions or forgetting information they got before. I always help these folks, many of whom are elderly and will never become as computer-fluent as many of us are. If I know the answer to their question and can write it succinctly, it takes less time than admonishing them about not previously searching online for answers.
Many of our list members are relatively recent computer owners/users, taught an inferior step-by-step by rehab agencies who don't rehabilitate anyone from anything. Their entire world is now a scary place, where they cannot trust their remaining senses and where danger lurks on every corner. They read about online identity theft and viruses, about novice users turning their boxes into bricks, and become hyper-cautious about pressing even one key that hasn't been preapproved in someone's step-by-step instructions.
These lists are not the places to fault these people for losing their sight or for being incorrectly taught by the only agencies available to them. Just once, rather than embarking on one of these interminable threads admonishing people for allegedly not conducting online searches before asking questions, (something impossible to prove anyway), I'd like to see someone post a compassionate response:
"Don't feel bad, but your question is pretty basic and has been answered here and online. How long have you used computers? Can you do X, Y and Z? Have you ever tried to search online? Which browser and screen reader do you use? Can you navigate between search results and activate them? If you want to copy some text from what you read online, can you do that and paste it into a document? Do you have trouble understanding what's being described online (I.E., icons, sliders, dragable elements, animations, etc.)? If so, tell me which issues you're facing and I'll help you."
That's the kid of step-by-step that these folks need: how to navigate search results in a web browser, how to find actual responses on web forums amidst all the posting headers and
shameless ads, how to copy/paste text from the web into documents, how to explore top-level menu bars and ribbon controls, how to listen for keyboard mnemonics, how to configure screen readers to report keyboard mnemonics, etc.
None of us learned to fish by being mocked when we couldn't even hook a line or cast a pole. Yet, because it makes us feel self-righteous and important, especially in a world that so frequently tears us down with impunity, we visit the same suffering upon these hapless souls whose only "infractions" are being blind and knowing next to nothing about modern technologies.
In case some of you think I may preach more than I practice, ask around how many people I've emailed privately to help with their problems, how many times I've talked with them by phone and tandemed into their computers to do hours of configurations that would ultimately facilitate their lives. Ask how many people have gotten detailed explanations from me about Windows controls, settings, web browsers, audio applications, word processors, even registry and group policy settings.

Orlando




Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Kevin Cussick
 

Brian, well put thanks.

On 04/01/2021 16:48, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:40 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I do picture visual images as that's how I was taught.
-
But, Sarah, the only way you can do that is if you, at one time, had enough vision to even have "visual images" as a concept.  Those totally blind since birth do not think visually in the way I do, that's for sure.  And any instruction related to color as an identifier is off the table, period, because it is not helpful as a classifier to someone who's never had the ability to process color.
You really don't seem to get "how you read" in many instances, nor do you often revise what you've said to more accurately depict what you actually do, although you will on occasion.
Saying that someone who's never been able to see, "are expected to know how things look, to the best of our ability," is the equivalent of saying, of a totally deaf person, that they "are expected to know how things sound, to the best of their ability."  It's a completely meaningless concept to someone who has never had a given sense, and even I will say that it's insulting to expect something of someone that their own sensory palette makes impossible in any meaningful way.
--
Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.
       ~ Brian Vogel


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Cearbhall O'Meadhra
 

Brian,

 

What has this to do with the subject line?

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 7:06 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 01:37 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:

Then, some of the analogies are just downright confusing. Black is supposed to mean darkness, an absence of all color. Yet, when the color drains from faces, we don't say that people go black; we say they go pale. To say nothing of the terrible term "colored" for Black people. How can they be simultaneously dark and colored?

-
Orlando,

           Several different concepts are at play in your observations.  First, color, strictly speaking, is only about light.  It is a property of what wavelengths are reflected back to eyes that can, of course, see.  When color gets spoken of in the physics sense, it's discussed in an additive sense, and all colors together form what gets called white light (and, no, I can't define white beyond the presence of all colors simultaneously such that something appears white).  Pigments actually work by subtracting wavelengths from the full visible spectrum and only allowing certain wavelengths to be reflected back to your eyes.  In essence, they're light sponges that only pick up certain wavelengths, while bouncing others back.

Black, when used in reference to light, means (if one is being strict) the absence of all light.  But in the real world that's not generally achieved, though things come close.  You will hear discussions of ultra-black paints and, believe me, they are a far more intense experience than what's typical.

Now, on to not going black, but going pale.  That, too, is 100% accurate.  Black, when used as a reference to someone with a lot of melanin in their skin, has never meant literal black as in the absence of all light.  And as to colored, which was once the chosen term by those now generally referred to as African-American or Black [see the NAACP], this is relative to the much, much paler tone of white skin, which is not, literally white.

All skin tones, regardless of their base color, have the undertone given by blood flowing beneath the surface of the skin.  When we are embarrassed (and you can often literally feel this, even if you can't see it) or for certain other forms of emotion there is often a rush of blood under the cheeks or sometimes to the whole face, resulting in what's called a blush, which is clearly visible to most who can see.  Hence the phrase, "The blushing bride," and similar.  Brides aren't embarrassed, though, but the way most of us experience the biggest blushes is when we are embarrassed, whether for bad reasons or good.  When one gets an emotional shock, something about what the body does very often causes precisely the opposite, where instead of blood rushing to the face it literally drains from under the skin, and no matter what your base skin tone that results in "going pale."  Pale and flushed (which is often the term used for blushing full face rather than just cheeks) are relative terms, not absolute ones, so anyone can go pale or become flushed.  Of course, the paler your base skin tone the easier it is to see blushing/flushing, and the darker your base skin tone the easier it is to see "going pale" because the state changes visually are more dramatic.  Almost everyone has heard the description of someone who's Caucasian being described as "pasty white," which means they have relatively little pink to their skin tone from blood beneath the surface to begin with.  If they blush, it's like a light bulb has gone off in red beneath their skin, whereas you'd be much harder pressed to detect paleness say, from an impending faint, were it to occur.  

And the opposing end of the light spectrum goes from true black, which means no color whatsoever, to white, which means the presence of all wavelengths.  Those of us who are sighted actually generally think of black as a color more than white, but both, because they're on the spectrum of visual perception, are commonly considered colors.  But it's all the things in between that, strictly speaking, actually are colors in the sense of specific combinations of wavelengths of light that are somewhere between none at all and all at equal intensity, which produces what we call white light.  [If you're into literal noise, think white noise versus pink noise and I believe there are other classes based on what frequencies are there in combination and at what intensities.]
 --

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Devin Prater
 

Stuff inline.


On 1/4/21 2:37 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 01:35 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Assertions by some others to the contrary, this is not limited to
Linux Land nor to computing.  I have never met anyone who has not
needed, at one point or another, to look something up for themselves
and then, sometimes, struggle through the material alone for the most
part.

Okay, yall. Since I never took a single blind rehab agency computer
class in my uneventful life, I can't answer this question. For you
folks who have undergone such torture, how many of you took graded
classes with graded exams for which you had to study manuals to answer
specific questions? I'll wait with a cup of coffee.
I could use some of that coffee. Anyways, I am a technology trainer in
one of the adult education rehab centers for the blind, and I want to
World Services for the Blind, or whatever they're calling themselves
now, in Arkansas to get my Assistive Technology Instructor
certification. Sure, many on the list will just spout out "Well
certifications aren't worth much," or whatever. And I agree. But shoot,
at least it got me a job. A lot of what we did was go through books on
using and teaching Microsoft Office. We teach some of that here, except
Outlook, but we also teach Internet and Email skills, along with
Windows, screen reader (NVDA), and other Assistive Technology like Note
Takers and whatever tech the student comes with. For both places though,
you don't really fail the class, you try again until you succeed.


Most blind folks learn what passes for computer skills in entirely
low-pressure environments where they're fed every freaking keystroke
by the instructor, who usually is only five keystrokes ahead of the
students. There are no manuals or online search skills being taught,
and certainly no exams with actual consequences for which such skills
would matter. Make blind folks answer graded exam questions based
exclusively on help manual and online search content, with
scholarships contingent upon their grades, and we'll master those
skills right quick.
I agree. Our performance tests hinges upon students' knowledge of
keyboard commands and their ability to perform them. I also agree that
using a search engine should be stressed more.


But our piss-poor, shameful and shameless rehab culture teaches us not
to excel because it knows the dirty secret: excelling doesn't make any
difference to our professional trajectories. So, they just teach us
the minimum we need to get by. Some people are so down on themselves
for being blind in the first place that they don't demand more or even
wonder if they can manage more because their families, friends and
teachers are all smacking them down, reminding them to be "realistic"
and know their places, shielding them in poisonous pseudo-protective
cocoons wherein no one outside the family can be trusted.
That's one problem I have. I don't know if I can be a programmer, my
thoughts are so slow and it takes me longer to understand things. At
least, that's how I feel compared to other people. And even
professionally, I don't know if I'm doing enough for my students, or how
I can better teach them and help them grow in confidence with
technology. I mean, we try to help them be independent. They student
course work on their own, using keyboard commands for both studying and
practicing what they learn. I'm just not very creative.


These tactics are all designed to keep us down, playing accessible
games all day, living at home with our parents, collecting our measly
SSI checks, participating in our conniving and manipulative blindness
organizations, perhaps dabbling with some hobbies such as cooking,
knitting, hand radio, digital audio workstations, or Linux.
So how can we change this? How can I help change this? Then again, most
blind people I know don't even consider things like Linux or audio
workstations, and quite a few don't even play games.


The luckiest of us land jobs at call centers doing customer service
for inaccessible products or speaking inaccessibly about operating
systems. Better still, some of us land the really choice jobs:
teaching other hapless blindies in a haphazard rudimentary manner how
to use today's devices using last century's mindset.
Last century's mindset? So, what mindset is of this century?


The only way, of course, to keep the cycle going is for the students
to be eventually employed teaching computers and smartphone to fresh
meat. Each one who lands one of these jobs is so thankful that they
don't question what's at the end of the line for them and for their
students: a big bunch of nothing. No jobs, no promotions, no health
care besides Medicaid or Medicare, no high living standard with nice
clothes and vacations.
I mean, I don't really need nice clothes, I'm not really into all that.
I am pretty thankful for this job, I just want to do it the best I can,
and be as helpful to my students and coworkers as possible.


That's what we get, a whole lot of nothing.
So, unless we start rolling up our sleeves and pushing back with all
our mind against this low-expectation racket, we'll keep getting a
whole lot of nothing. But, we'll be able to browse the web with human
speech as entertainment. Ever wonder why so many rehab agencies offer
us computer classes? It's not for employment. They know we won't be
turning out Powerpoint presentations or using Microsoft Access any
time soon, presenting exciting ideas at regional or international
conferences. All this computer push is to keep us entertained. As long
as we're able to post on Facebook and download idiotic Youtube videos,
perhaps read some romance novels on Bard or Bookshare, we're
entertained and preoccupied, blissfully unaware that our living
standard hasn't improved in fifty years, that we're still living below
the poverty line, deciding between food and prescriptions, evaluating
everything on the basis of affordability. Thusly entertained on our
devices, knowing just enough to stay entertained, we eventually become
inured to unemployment and poverty, disfunctional familial and social
relationships, so much so that our devices become our refuges from
everything that sucks around us.
I think this is a problem with our global culture at large, not just
with blind people. Although, it is more noticeable with blind people, as
the "amusing ourselves to death" problem is more starkly outlined in our
lives.


Folks, push for more! Use your devices for much more than
entertainment. Learn how things work in terms *you* understand, not in
some translated sightling mumbo-jumbo. Learn how to set up your own
rules for your own game, because the sighted world sure ain't giving
you a shot at winning theirs.
Okay, I guess that's something I'll have to Google search, right? <smiles>




Orlando





Re: Say next and previous sentence not working in Word

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

No, I haven't. I didn't even know about this command until yesterday,
and only tried it in the one document. I was working with another
document last night that I will have to try it in. I also just used
the one key.

On 1/4/21, benmoxey@gmail.com <benmoxey@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bob and Cearbhall



To add to the mystery, I just checked on a work PC running NVDA 2020.3 and
Word 2016. Sentence navigation is working for me using Alt + Up or Down
arrow.



I realised that Tony’s add-on has come to the rescue, but I’m interested to
know if either of you have tried the commands in several documents, just to
ensure it’s not document specific. Also, have you tried using both Alt keys,
just to make sure it’s not to do with a regional keyboard setting?



Cheers



Ben



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Monday, 4 January 2021 10:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word



I just happen to have a word document open as I’m reading this, running
office 2016 as well, and I get the same result. alt plus up or down arrow
does not move by sentence.





On Jan 3, 2021, at 3:35 PM, Cearbhall O'Meadhra <cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie
<mailto:cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie> > wrote:



Ben,



In fact, I am running Office 2016 so you have your answer!





All the best,



Cearbhall



m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie
<mailto:cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie>





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of benmoxey@gmail.com
<mailto:benmoxey@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2021 10:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word



Hi Cearbhall



I forgot to mention that I am running Office 365, rather than 2016. I don’t
think this will make a difference, but it would be interesting to hear from
someone running 2016 to clarify if navigating by sentence is working for
them using Alt + up or Down arrow.



Cheers



Ben



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Cearbhall O'Meadhra
Sent: Monday, 4 January 2021 8:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word



Ben,



Thanks for taking the trouble to reply.



I have downloaded the add-on today called “SentenceNav” and another called
“TextNav”. These do the job. So, in response to your suggestion, I restarted
NVDA with add-ons disabled. This eliminated the functions provided by those
two apps. I could now try out your suggestio. In Outlook, I found that you
were right. When I switched to the active cursor with NVDA + space, the
sentence commands did work. However, they failed to work in NS, Word. Any
ideas?



I restarted the two add-ons and now I have the sentence reading controls in
both Word and Outlook!



I would like to hear from the developers why this strange behaviour is
happening.



All the best,



Cearbhall



m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie
<mailto:cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie>





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of benmoxey@gmail.com
<mailto:benmoxey@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2021 9:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word



Hi Cearbhall



The next and previous sentence commands should be working as normal in Word.
However, note that they will not work if you are using Browse mode in a Word
document to navigate by headings etc. Ensure you are in Focus mode by using
the toggle command, NVDA + Space, and give them another try.



I hope this is helpful.



All the best.



Ben



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Cearbhall O'Meadhra
Sent: Monday, 4 January 2021 2:44 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word



Hi, all,

I am using Windows 10, NVDA 2020.3 and Word 2016.



When I try to read the next or previous sentence in a Word document, using
alt + down-Arrow, or alt + up-arrow, I get no response. Indeed when I turn
on keyboard help, these key combinations get no echo. It appears that this
function has been removed from NVDA! I opened the NVDA User Guide and it
still says that alt-Down-arrow is to be used to say next sentence and
alt-up-arrow for previous sentence.



Can anyone explain what is happening? Is the user guide out of step?



All the best,



Cearbhall



m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie
<mailto:cearbhall.omeadhra@blbc.ie>













Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Chris Smart
 

Slight correction Orlando, it's ham as in amateur radio, not hand radio.

and it's a wonderful hobby.


Bug? Office365: Word, Headings in Elements dialog not working

Dan Miner
 

I got this small 2 page document which has about 9 headings in it.  I put NVDA in browse mode, pressed NVDA+F7 to bring up the Elements dialog which defaults to showing Links (odd unless it’s the last one used ?IMHO).  I press ALT+H to switch to headings.  NVDA becomes unresponsive for several seconds and then finally returns with no headings in the tree view.  Also, changing the radio buttons from links, charts, etc will cause the same unresponsive state as well when landing on headings.  However, if I use the quick navigation keys in the document by pressing H, it will happily take me to each one.  It also registers the heading level and will go to the proper level with pressing 1-6.

 

Anyone else seeing this?  I can probably include the document if needed.

 

                Dan


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

It isn't our own language. Some sighted people use the keyboard. However, in this era, when everything is defined as a right, requiring manufacturers to produce instructions specifically for blind people is not something I would advocate. Blind people shouldn't expect to have everything done for such a small group. You might be able to argue that manuals should have versions written for blind people since in the sighted versions, they use pictures and diagrams and icons, but beyond a certain point, blind people need to take responsibility for what they can do and know.

I have no objection to tutorials being produced to teach blind people how to use programs using terminology and descriptions generally used by blind people, but at what point does this right end?

Should a designer of shareware or freeware be required to have instructions written for blind people if his program is used by a lot of blind people? Are you advocating that every help topic regarding Windows and Microsoft Office have a blindness version?

If a specialized piece of software has one-hundred blind users in America, should the developer be required to have instructions using the keyboard for such a small user base even if a lot more sighted people use it?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 1:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 12:45 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
The reason I say that is you will, eventually, be given instructions
by a kindly but clueless sighted person who says, "Click on the
paperclip button," because that's what they see and they know,
implicitly, what it does. It's really handy to have had someone
who's instructing you give you the sighted/announced pairs just
because you're likely to be confronted with only the former at some point.
But I do agree that, particularly if the audience is a blind one, I'd
likely reverse the ordering of the twins, giving the announced name
(or something awfully close to it, I never remember them all,
perfectly) first with the icon description afterward.
Windows is completely translated into dozens of
languages. When Chinese or Japanese speakers do
tech support for their compatriots, they don't
use English terms for Windows elements because
those elements have all been translated into
their languages. While Hindi or Hebrew speakers
understand that they must know English in order
to talk about Windows with non-Indians or
Israelis, they aren't burdened with the task of
learning English just to use Windows.
This is a good analogy because we as blind people
have allowed ourselves be bamboozled out of
rights that all non-English speakers have. Every
software manufacturer knows that if they don't
produce translated versions, they won't sell
product to non-English speakers. Yet, no software
manufacture--large or small--has been made to
feel similar pressure about producing (for lack
of a better word) blind versions or translations.
This is because non-English speakers petition
software manufacturers to produce translated
versions. Those who know English even offer to do
these translations for free. Whereas, we have
people among us insisting that our language is
provincial, inferior and the primary reason we
keep getting "left behind". Sighted Spanish and Portuguese speakers

don't get "left behind" for being unable to use
Windows in English. Microsoft has never
arrogantly maintained that they must learn
English in order to use Windows because that
position would constitute economic suicide. Only
us blind people have been ingrained with such
self-loathing that we would ridiculously insist,
when communicating with each other, to use
exclusively sighted terms such as points, clicks
and icons, when we have a perfectly functional
keyboard-oriented language of our own.
Orlando Enrique Fiol


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 01:35 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Assertions by some others to the contrary, this is not limited to
Linux Land nor to computing. I have never met anyone who has not
needed, at one point or another, to look something up for themselves
and then, sometimes, struggle through the material alone for the most part.
Okay, yall. Since I never took a single blind rehab agency computer class in my uneventful life, I can't answer this question. For you folks who have undergone such torture, how many of you took graded classes with graded exams for which you had to study manuals to answer specific questions? I'll wait with a cup of coffee.
Most blind folks learn what passes for computer skills in entirely low-pressure environments where they're fed every freaking keystroke by the instructor, who usually is only five keystrokes ahead of the students. There are no manuals or online search skills being taught, and certainly no exams with actual consequences for which such skills would matter. Make blind folks answer graded exam questions based exclusively on help manual and online search content, with scholarships contingent upon their grades, and we'll master those skills right quick. But our piss-poor, shameful and shameless rehab culture teaches us not to excel because it knows the dirty secret: excelling doesn't make any difference to our professional trajectories. So, they just teach us the minimum we need to get by. Some people are so down on themselves for being blind in the first place that they don't demand more or even wonder if they can manage more because their families, friends and teachers are all smacking them down, reminding them to be "realistic" and know their places, shielding them in poisonous pseudo-protective cocoons wherein no one outside the family can be trusted. These tactics are all designed to keep us down, playing accessible games all day, living at home with our parents, collecting our measly SSI checks, participating in our conniving and manipulative blindness organizations, perhaps dabbling with some hobbies such as cooking, knitting, hand radio, digital audio workstations, or Linux.
The luckiest of us land jobs at call centers doing customer service for inaccessible products or speaking inaccessibly about operating systems. Better still, some of us land the really choice jobs: teaching other hapless blindies in a haphazard rudimentary manner how to use today's devices using last century's mindset. The only way, of course, to keep the cycle going is for the students to be eventually employed teaching computers and smartphone to fresh meat. Each one who lands one of these jobs is so thankful that they don't question what's at the end of the line for them and for their students: a big bunch of nothing. No jobs, no promotions, no health care besides Medicaid or Medicare, no high living standard with nice clothes and vacations. That's what we get, a whole lot of nothing.
So, unless we start rolling up our sleeves and pushing back with all our mind against this low-expectation racket, we'll keep getting a whole lot of nothing. But, we'll be able to browse the web with human speech as entertainment. Ever wonder why so many rehab agencies offer us computer classes? It's not for employment. They know we won't be turning out Powerpoint presentations or using Microsoft Access any time soon, presenting exciting ideas at regional or international conferences. All this computer push is to keep us entertained. As long as we're able to post on Facebook and download idiotic Youtube videos, perhaps read some romance novels on Bard or Bookshare, we're entertained and preoccupied, blissfully unaware that our living standard hasn't improved in fifty years, that we're still living below the poverty line, deciding between food and prescriptions, evaluating everything on the basis of affordability. Thusly entertained on our devices, knowing just enough to stay entertained, we eventually become inured to unemployment and poverty, disfunctional familial and social relationships, so much so that our devices become our refuges from everything that sucks around us.
Folks, push for more! Use your devices for much more than entertainment. Learn how things work in terms *you* understand, not in some translated sightling mumbo-jumbo. Learn how to set up your own rules for your own game, because the sighted world sure ain't giving you a shot at winning theirs.


Orlando


Re: Say next and previous sentence not working in Word

benmoxey@...
 

Hi Bob and Cearbhall

 

To add to the mystery, I just checked on a work PC running NVDA 2020.3 and Word 2016. Sentence navigation is working for me using Alt + Up or Down arrow.

 

I realised that Tony’s add-on has come to the rescue, but I’m interested to know if either of you have tried the commands in several documents, just to ensure it’s not document specific. Also, have you tried using both Alt keys, just to make sure it’s not to do with a regional keyboard setting?

 

Cheers

 

Ben

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Monday, 4 January 2021 10:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word

 

I just happen to have a word document open as I’m reading this, running office 2016 as well, and I get the same result. alt plus up or down arrow does not move by sentence.



On Jan 3, 2021, at 3:35 PM, Cearbhall O'Meadhra <cearbhall.omeadhra@...> wrote:



Ben,

 

In fact, I am running Office 2016 so you have your answer!

 

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of benmoxey@...
Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2021 10:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word

 

Hi Cearbhall

 

I forgot to mention that I am running Office 365, rather than 2016. I don’t think this will make a difference, but it would be interesting to hear from someone running 2016 to clarify if navigating by sentence is working for them using Alt + up or Down arrow.

 

Cheers

 

Ben

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cearbhall O'Meadhra
Sent: Monday, 4 January 2021 8:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word

 

Ben,

 

Thanks for taking the trouble to reply.

 

I have downloaded the add-on today called “SentenceNav” and another called “TextNav”. These do the job. So, in response to your suggestion, I restarted NVDA with add-ons disabled. This eliminated the functions provided by those two apps. I could now try out your suggestio. In Outlook, I found that you were right. When I switched to the active cursor with NVDA + space, the sentence commands did work. However, they failed to work in NS, Word. Any ideas?

 

I restarted the two add-ons and now I have the sentence reading controls in both Word and Outlook!

 

I would like to hear from the developers why this strange behaviour is happening.

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of benmoxey@...
Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2021 9:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word

 

Hi Cearbhall

 

The next and previous sentence commands should be working as normal in Word. However, note that they will not work if you are using Browse mode in a Word document to navigate by headings etc. Ensure you are in Focus mode by using the toggle command, NVDA + Space, and give them another try.

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

All the best.

 

Ben

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cearbhall O'Meadhra
Sent: Monday, 4 January 2021 2:44 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word

 

Hi, all,

I am using Windows 10, NVDA 2020.3 and Word 2016.

 

When I try to read the next or previous sentence in a Word document, using alt + down-Arrow, or alt + up-arrow, I get no response. Indeed when I turn on keyboard help, these key combinations get no echo. It appears that this function has been removed from NVDA! I opened the NVDA User Guide and it still says that alt-Down-arrow is to be used to say next sentence and alt-up-arrow for previous sentence.

 

Can anyone explain what is happening? Is the user guide out of step?

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Chris Smart
 

Orlando, I wish I had read this when I was 13, not now, in my 40's.

It sure would have saved me a lot of ruminating and other unpleasant mental states. Then again, would i have been ready to hear the truth at 13? Probably not.

On 2021-01-04 3:17 p.m., Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 01:10 PM 1/4/2021, Gene wrote:
No, I'm not just wrong.  I'm saying that left behind depends on who
you are. the person who uses the computer for purposes such as I've discussed won't be left behind.  A lot of blind people use computers for browsing, e-mail, streaming, and other such purposes.  They will not be left behind, they use programs for which there is plenty of material for blind people to learn from created for blind people.  If you use a computer for other purposes, then you may be left behind and it is important to know how to translate mouse instructions and how to review the screen in the ways your screen-reader provides.  the general statement you will be left behind assumes a certain kind of user and is so general that it is meaningless. If you are going to make such statements, you need to define who you are talking about.

Bravo! What does being "left behind" actually mean? I haven't been able to find even a vaguely music-related job since finishing my Ph.D. Am I left behind? If I want to use a certain audio plugins with no standard controls or text labels in its interface, am I being left behind? What if I just want to use my computer to read email, browse the web and open documents? Am I being left behind by preferring keyboard-oriented technical materials?
As these random examples demonstrate, some over-educated fools like me end up getting left behind no matter how much we bust our brains and humps trying to excel. The game is rigged against us because we can't see; plain and simple.
For others, our requirements and expectations are not stratospheric. We're so close to the bottom that being left behind doesn't feel abnormal.
If being left behind means I can't get a job even with a Ph.D., there's not much I can do in my end to fix that. I took all the steps I was supposed to take. If being left behind means an old lady runs out of hard drive space because she has never cleaned out her recycle bin or attachments, someone teaches her how to do these things, or she buys a bigger drive and presto! not left behind anymore.
Many of you know the most famous lines of the Serenity Prayer, the rest of which was not blessed winch similar inspiration: "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."
The most important part is "the wisdom to know the difference". Many blind people out here think their lot will improve if they talk exclusively about pointing and clicking icons, or don't use canes, or only use Iphones, or only use guide dogs. They think there's a magic formula that, when perfectly applied, will make sightlings forget we're blind and treat us like one of them. Sorry to tell you, ain't gonna happen. No matter how brilliant you are in any subject, no matter how sighted-acting you learn to be, even if you never touch your food, never walk with a cane, never read Braille, never connect your smartphone to a blue tooth keyboard, never pay attention to sonic traffic lights, never buy a caller ID device, in short, never involve yourself in anything construable as adaptive accessibility, you're still blind. That's right. You're still blind. To them, you're still marked. You'll never be one of them. No matter how color coordinated your wardrobe is, no matter how much public transportation you take, even if you can grocery shop independently, do your own laundry, clean your own house, bear and raise your own children, you're still blind. To them, you're still not in the club. And, as long as you ain't in the club, they'll reject you on any technicality they can find within the law.
So, since no assimilation into the sighted world will ever be enough to transform our blindness into complete equality, I say screw it! Assimilate what works for us and ditch what don't. After all, we should know by now that we ain't gonna get no prize for being the best assimilator. No matter how sighted we try to make ourselves, we're still blind.


Orlando




Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 01:10 PM 1/4/2021, Gene wrote:
No, I'm not just wrong. I'm saying that left behind depends on who
you are. the person who uses the computer for purposes such as I've discussed won't be left behind. A lot of blind people use computers for browsing, e-mail, streaming, and other such purposes. They will not be left behind, they use programs for which there is plenty of material for blind people to learn from created for blind people. If you use a computer for other purposes, then you may be left behind and it is important to know how to translate mouse instructions and how to review the screen in the ways your screen-reader provides. the general statement you will be left behind assumes a certain kind of user and is so general that it is meaningless. If you are going to make such statements, you need to define who you are talking about.

Bravo! What does being "left behind" actually mean? I haven't been able to find even a vaguely music-related job since finishing my Ph.D. Am I left behind? If I want to use a certain audio plugins with no standard controls or text labels in its interface, am I being left behind? What if I just want to use my computer to read email, browse the web and open documents? Am I being left behind by preferring keyboard-oriented technical materials?
As these random examples demonstrate, some over-educated fools like me end up getting left behind no matter how much we bust our brains and humps trying to excel. The game is rigged against us because we can't see; plain and simple.
For others, our requirements and expectations are not stratospheric. We're so close to the bottom that being left behind doesn't feel abnormal.
If being left behind means I can't get a job even with a Ph.D., there's not much I can do in my end to fix that. I took all the steps I was supposed to take. If being left behind means an old lady runs out of hard drive space because she has never cleaned out her recycle bin or attachments, someone teaches her how to do these things, or she buys a bigger drive and presto! not left behind anymore.
Many of you know the most famous lines of the Serenity Prayer, the rest of which was not blessed winch similar inspiration: "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."
The most important part is "the wisdom to know the difference". Many blind people out here think their lot will improve if they talk exclusively about pointing and clicking icons, or don't use canes, or only use Iphones, or only use guide dogs. They think there's a magic formula that, when perfectly applied, will make sightlings forget we're blind and treat us like one of them. Sorry to tell you, ain't gonna happen. No matter how brilliant you are in any subject, no matter how sighted-acting you learn to be, even if you never touch your food, never walk with a cane, never read Braille, never connect your smartphone to a blue tooth keyboard, never pay attention to sonic traffic lights, never buy a caller ID device, in short, never involve yourself in anything construable as adaptive accessibility, you're still blind. That's right. You're still blind. To them, you're still marked. You'll never be one of them. No matter how color coordinated your wardrobe is, no matter how much public transportation you take, even if you can grocery shop independently, do your own laundry, clean your own house, bear and raise your own children, you're still blind. To them, you're still not in the club. And, as long as you ain't in the club, they'll reject you on any technicality they can find within the law.
So, since no assimilation into the sighted world will ever be enough to transform our blindness into complete equality, I say screw it! Assimilate what works for us and ditch what don't. After all, we should know by now that we ain't gonna get no prize for being the best assimilator. No matter how sighted we try to make ourselves, we're still blind.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 02:54 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
In many of these "pushback" exchanges, the pusher isn't teaching this person how to fish at all; they're just scolding them and sending them away for being piss-poor fishermen.
-
Exactly, and that's actually appropriate in many cases.   I am sick to death of the expectation that pervades many of these venues that I should not be able to expect that virtually anyone on them can do a basic web search and/or archive search, and particularly the former, long, long, long before they ever subscribed.

There are times where a good, solid dope slap is precisely what's needed to wake folks up from their torpor, and I have zero issue when someone elects to do so.  The guilty party should take offense, because they're being told off for having done something offensive.  Then they should think upon that and either do for themselves or ask about how they can learn to do for themselves.

And if you've never learned, and some of your best lessons, after being mocked, then you are a rare bird indeed.  Some of the most important lessons I've ever learned, particularly about how to approach asking for help, is after I've been given a firm verbal dressing down for having been lazy and rude and expecting to have things handed to me on a silver platter.  And that's not just in computing, either.

Adults need to behave like adults, and expect to be treated like same.  I've said it before and I'll say it again:  Not all venues should be considered remedial.  Most shouldn't.

And I will say that I don't treat those who are blind any differently than I do those who are sighted, with the exception of reasonable accommodations to that specific state.  Nor should I.  If I'd give a sighted person grief for a specific action then at least 99 times out of 100 the same grief should be given to an individual whose blind if they do the same thing.

Also, how we handle things as individuals, IRL (in real life) can diverge at times quite significantly from how we may present online.  There are scads of people I've helped privately but that's really not relevant to how things should work on-group.  There are reasons I have done many things privately, and that's mostly because I knew I could not answer definitively on-group because there were too many variables that could take days of back and forth but probably minutes of "let me look."  I (or you, or anyone assisting privately) get to make those decisions because they are in situations we have chosen and where two people, not over 1400, are likely involved.

 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 01:00 PM 1/4/2021, Chris Smart wrote:
Orlando, if you don't think of wave forms in at least a rudimentary
visual way, how do you understand the concept of splicing the audio at zero crossings then?

Easy. 0 crossing is the exact spot when one transient ends and another begins. If you select audio very gradually between two transients, you'll hear clicks either before the first, after the first, before or after the second. The safe place to cut/copy/paste audio is where there are no clicks or cutoffs between transients or their durations. So, even if you set a selection point at the beginning of a transient because you hear no clicks, you have to listen carefully to the end because you may end up clipping its sustain, duration or what some folks call "tail".
None of this involves the conception of drawn wave forms. When I do FM or modular synthesis, I don't think of sien or square wave forms as shapes; I think of them as sounds. A sien wave sounds most similar to a clarinet, since its second through fifth partials are most active.
If I need to hear how transients align on a metrical grid, I simply set up a metronome at the smallest subdivision. If I'm checking for sixteenths, I set the metronome at the sixteenth level rather than the quarter note. This way, I can hear exactly what does and doesn't align. Again, no need for wave form visualization.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:55 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
I will say that the reason you've likely never encountered any
exchanges about web searches and skills on most blind-centric lists is
precisely because the culture on many of these lists treats them as
simple Q&A with no expectation of prior effort. And I can say that
having been on them for years now, myself. There is a pernicious
attitude that if I want to ask, I ask, and that if anyone gives grief
about that the grief-giver is "the bad guy." Sorry, but no.
It is long past time that these groups not be treated that way, and
the only way that will change is if enough of the membership who knows
that doing so is irritating and counterproductive starts expressing
that and pushing back. I certainly haven't had any success on that
front as a virtual lone voice in the wilderness. In fact, most times
I get the, "But not everyone knows how!," tossed out as though I don't
know this. I do know this, and I was once in the "doesn't know how,"
camp. We all were, about virtually anything we may be anywhere from
just OK to wildly proficient in doing. You don't get there by not
doing it and you certainly won't get there if there is a significant
contingent that won't insist you do so, and engage in the admittedly
harder work in the short term of helping you to establish those skills.

We've all heard the possibly apocryphal Chinese adage, "Give a man fish and feed him for a day; teach him how to fish and feed him for life."
In many of these "pushback" exchanges, the pusher isn't teaching this person how to fish at all; they're just scolding them and sending them away for being piss-poor fishermen. For the most part, most blind people understand how painful it is to be dependent, especially if they've lost their sight later in life and were fiercely independent while sighted. They feel awful about having to ask simple questions or forgetting information they got before. I always help these folks, many of whom are elderly and will never become as computer-fluent as many of us are. If I know the answer to their question and can write it succinctly, it takes less time than admonishing them about not previously searching online for answers.
Many of our list members are relatively recent computer owners/users, taught an inferior step-by-step by rehab agencies who don't rehabilitate anyone from anything. Their entire world is now a scary place, where they cannot trust their remaining senses and where danger lurks on every corner. They read about online identity theft and viruses, about novice users turning their boxes into bricks, and become hyper-cautious about pressing even one key that hasn't been preapproved in someone's step-by-step instructions.
These lists are not the places to fault these people for losing their sight or for being incorrectly taught by the only agencies available to them. Just once, rather than embarking on one of these interminable threads admonishing people for allegedly not conducting online searches before asking questions, (something impossible to prove anyway), I'd like to see someone post a compassionate response:
"Don't feel bad, but your question is pretty basic and has been answered here and online. How long have you used computers? Can you do X, Y and Z? Have you ever tried to search online? Which browser and screen reader do you use? Can you navigate between search results and activate them? If you want to copy some text from what you read online, can you do that and paste it into a document? Do you have trouble understanding what's being described online (I.E., icons, sliders, dragable elements, animations, etc.)? If so, tell me which issues you're facing and I'll help you."
That's the kid of step-by-step that these folks need: how to navigate search results in a web browser, how to find actual responses on web forums amidst all the posting headers and
shameless ads, how to copy/paste text from the web into documents, how to explore top-level menu bars and ribbon controls, how to listen for keyboard mnemonics, how to configure screen readers to report keyboard mnemonics, etc.
None of us learned to fish by being mocked when we couldn't even hook a line or cast a pole. Yet, because it makes us feel self-righteous and important, especially in a world that so frequently tears us down with impunity, we visit the same suffering upon these hapless souls whose only "infractions" are being blind and knowing next to nothing about modern technologies.
In case some of you think I may preach more than I practice, ask around how many people I've emailed privately to help with their problems, how many times I've talked with them by phone and tandemed into their computers to do hours of configurations that would ultimately facilitate their lives. Ask how many people have gotten detailed explanations from me about Windows controls, settings, web browsers, audio applications, word processors, even registry and group policy settings.

Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 02:35 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
We've all heard the possibly apocryphal Chinese adage, "Give a man fish and feed him for a day; teach him how to fish and feed him for life."
-
Yet, see examples of my own previous plaint in this very topic.  I'm completely over the apologists who try to justify treating these groups as pure Q&A venues where absolutely no effort should be expected.  And I see those apologists trotting out the same weak arguments about "those poor unskilled" again and again and again.

Sorry, but no.

And there is a big difference between what I (or anyone really) should or would expect from a complete neophyte and someone we know to have been "around these parts" (regardless of what "these parts" might be, specifically) for years.   I have the patience of a saint with newbies, and have exhibited same.  I have the precise opposite for those who should know better and refuse to cultivate basic skills and employ them as a matter of course.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 02:31 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
Yet, no software manufacture--large or small--has been made to feel similar pressure about producing (for lack of a better word) blind versions or translations.
-
Sorry, darlin', but I have no idea what world you're living in, but it's not the one I'm living in or have been living in as accessibility considerations keep getting more and more and more considered over time.  The influence of the blind community on software manufacturers is hugely outsized compared to the size of the demographic, and has only been getting more influential.

And if you wish to dispute this, we have absolutely nothing further to discuss in this specific sphere.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:55 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
I will say that the reason you've likely never encountered any
exchanges about web searches and skills on most blind-centric lists is
precisely because the culture on many of these lists treats them as
simple Q&A with no expectation of prior effort. And I can say that
having been on them for years now, myself. There is a pernicious
attitude that if I want to ask, I ask, and that if anyone gives grief
about that the grief-giver is "the bad guy." Sorry, but no.
It is long past time that these groups not be treated that way, and
the only way that will change is if enough of the membership who knows
that doing so is irritating and counterproductive starts expressing
that and pushing back. I certainly haven't had any success on that
front as a virtual lone voice in the wilderness. In fact, most times
I get the, "But not everyone knows how!," tossed out as though I don't
know this. I do know this, and I was once in the "doesn't know how,"
camp. We all were, about virtually anything we may be anywhere from
just OK to wildly proficient in doing. You don't get there by not
doing it and you certainly won't get there if there is a significant
contingent that won't insist you do so, and engage in the admittedly
harder work in the short term of helping you to establish those skills.

We've all heard the possibly apocryphal Chinese adage, "Give a man fish and feed him for a day; teach him how to fish and feed him for life."
In many of thOrlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090

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