Date   

Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 01:35 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Assertions by some others to the contrary, this is not limited to
Linux Land nor to computing. I have never met anyone who has not
needed, at one point or another, to look something up for themselves
and then, sometimes, struggle through the material alone for the most part.
Okay, yall. Since I never took a single blind rehab agency computer class in my uneventful life, I can't answer this question. For you folks who have undergone such torture, how many of you took graded classes with graded exams for which you had to study manuals to answer specific questions? I'll wait with a cup of coffee.
Most blind folks learn what passes for computer skills in entirely low-pressure environments where they're fed every freaking keystroke by the instructor, who usually is only five keystrokes ahead of the students. There are no manuals or online search skills being taught, and certainly no exams with actual consequences for which such skills would matter. Make blind folks answer graded exam questions based exclusively on help manual and online search content, with scholarships contingent upon their grades, and we'll master those skills right quick. But our piss-poor, shameful and shameless rehab culture teaches us not to excel because it knows the dirty secret: excelling doesn't make any difference to our professional trajectories. So, they just teach us the minimum we need to get by. Some people are so down on themselves for being blind in the first place that they don't demand more or even wonder if they can manage more because their families, friends and teachers are all smacking them down, reminding them to be "realistic" and know their places, shielding them in poisonous pseudo-protective cocoons wherein no one outside the family can be trusted. These tactics are all designed to keep us down, playing accessible games all day, living at home with our parents, collecting our measly SSI checks, participating in our conniving and manipulative blindness organizations, perhaps dabbling with some hobbies such as cooking, knitting, hand radio, digital audio workstations, or Linux.
The luckiest of us land jobs at call centers doing customer service for inaccessible products or speaking inaccessibly about operating systems. Better still, some of us land the really choice jobs: teaching other hapless blindies in a haphazard rudimentary manner how to use today's devices using last century's mindset. The only way, of course, to keep the cycle going is for the students to be eventually employed teaching computers and smartphone to fresh meat. Each one who lands one of these jobs is so thankful that they don't question what's at the end of the line for them and for their students: a big bunch of nothing. No jobs, no promotions, no health care besides Medicaid or Medicare, no high living standard with nice clothes and vacations. That's what we get, a whole lot of nothing.
So, unless we start rolling up our sleeves and pushing back with all our mind against this low-expectation racket, we'll keep getting a whole lot of nothing. But, we'll be able to browse the web with human speech as entertainment. Ever wonder why so many rehab agencies offer us computer classes? It's not for employment. They know we won't be turning out Powerpoint presentations or using Microsoft Access any time soon, presenting exciting ideas at regional or international conferences. All this computer push is to keep us entertained. As long as we're able to post on Facebook and download idiotic Youtube videos, perhaps read some romance novels on Bard or Bookshare, we're entertained and preoccupied, blissfully unaware that our living standard hasn't improved in fifty years, that we're still living below the poverty line, deciding between food and prescriptions, evaluating everything on the basis of affordability. Thusly entertained on our devices, knowing just enough to stay entertained, we eventually become inured to unemployment and poverty, disfunctional familial and social relationships, so much so that our devices become our refuges from everything that sucks around us.
Folks, push for more! Use your devices for much more than entertainment. Learn how things work in terms *you* understand, not in some translated sightling mumbo-jumbo. Learn how to set up your own rules for your own game, because the sighted world sure ain't giving you a shot at winning theirs.


Orlando


Re: Say next and previous sentence not working in Word

benmoxey@...
 

Hi Bob and Cearbhall

 

To add to the mystery, I just checked on a work PC running NVDA 2020.3 and Word 2016. Sentence navigation is working for me using Alt + Up or Down arrow.

 

I realised that Tony’s add-on has come to the rescue, but I’m interested to know if either of you have tried the commands in several documents, just to ensure it’s not document specific. Also, have you tried using both Alt keys, just to make sure it’s not to do with a regional keyboard setting?

 

Cheers

 

Ben

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Monday, 4 January 2021 10:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word

 

I just happen to have a word document open as I’m reading this, running office 2016 as well, and I get the same result. alt plus up or down arrow does not move by sentence.



On Jan 3, 2021, at 3:35 PM, Cearbhall O'Meadhra <cearbhall.omeadhra@...> wrote:



Ben,

 

In fact, I am running Office 2016 so you have your answer!

 

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of benmoxey@...
Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2021 10:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word

 

Hi Cearbhall

 

I forgot to mention that I am running Office 365, rather than 2016. I don’t think this will make a difference, but it would be interesting to hear from someone running 2016 to clarify if navigating by sentence is working for them using Alt + up or Down arrow.

 

Cheers

 

Ben

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cearbhall O'Meadhra
Sent: Monday, 4 January 2021 8:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word

 

Ben,

 

Thanks for taking the trouble to reply.

 

I have downloaded the add-on today called “SentenceNav” and another called “TextNav”. These do the job. So, in response to your suggestion, I restarted NVDA with add-ons disabled. This eliminated the functions provided by those two apps. I could now try out your suggestio. In Outlook, I found that you were right. When I switched to the active cursor with NVDA + space, the sentence commands did work. However, they failed to work in NS, Word. Any ideas?

 

I restarted the two add-ons and now I have the sentence reading controls in both Word and Outlook!

 

I would like to hear from the developers why this strange behaviour is happening.

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of benmoxey@...
Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2021 9:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word

 

Hi Cearbhall

 

The next and previous sentence commands should be working as normal in Word. However, note that they will not work if you are using Browse mode in a Word document to navigate by headings etc. Ensure you are in Focus mode by using the toggle command, NVDA + Space, and give them another try.

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

All the best.

 

Ben

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cearbhall O'Meadhra
Sent: Monday, 4 January 2021 2:44 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Say next and previous sentence not working in Word

 

Hi, all,

I am using Windows 10, NVDA 2020.3 and Word 2016.

 

When I try to read the next or previous sentence in a Word document, using alt + down-Arrow, or alt + up-arrow, I get no response. Indeed when I turn on keyboard help, these key combinations get no echo. It appears that this function has been removed from NVDA! I opened the NVDA User Guide and it still says that alt-Down-arrow is to be used to say next sentence and alt-up-arrow for previous sentence.

 

Can anyone explain what is happening? Is the user guide out of step?

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Chris Smart
 

Orlando, I wish I had read this when I was 13, not now, in my 40's.

It sure would have saved me a lot of ruminating and other unpleasant mental states. Then again, would i have been ready to hear the truth at 13? Probably not.

On 2021-01-04 3:17 p.m., Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 01:10 PM 1/4/2021, Gene wrote:
No, I'm not just wrong.  I'm saying that left behind depends on who
you are. the person who uses the computer for purposes such as I've discussed won't be left behind.  A lot of blind people use computers for browsing, e-mail, streaming, and other such purposes.  They will not be left behind, they use programs for which there is plenty of material for blind people to learn from created for blind people.  If you use a computer for other purposes, then you may be left behind and it is important to know how to translate mouse instructions and how to review the screen in the ways your screen-reader provides.  the general statement you will be left behind assumes a certain kind of user and is so general that it is meaningless. If you are going to make such statements, you need to define who you are talking about.

Bravo! What does being "left behind" actually mean? I haven't been able to find even a vaguely music-related job since finishing my Ph.D. Am I left behind? If I want to use a certain audio plugins with no standard controls or text labels in its interface, am I being left behind? What if I just want to use my computer to read email, browse the web and open documents? Am I being left behind by preferring keyboard-oriented technical materials?
As these random examples demonstrate, some over-educated fools like me end up getting left behind no matter how much we bust our brains and humps trying to excel. The game is rigged against us because we can't see; plain and simple.
For others, our requirements and expectations are not stratospheric. We're so close to the bottom that being left behind doesn't feel abnormal.
If being left behind means I can't get a job even with a Ph.D., there's not much I can do in my end to fix that. I took all the steps I was supposed to take. If being left behind means an old lady runs out of hard drive space because she has never cleaned out her recycle bin or attachments, someone teaches her how to do these things, or she buys a bigger drive and presto! not left behind anymore.
Many of you know the most famous lines of the Serenity Prayer, the rest of which was not blessed winch similar inspiration: "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."
The most important part is "the wisdom to know the difference". Many blind people out here think their lot will improve if they talk exclusively about pointing and clicking icons, or don't use canes, or only use Iphones, or only use guide dogs. They think there's a magic formula that, when perfectly applied, will make sightlings forget we're blind and treat us like one of them. Sorry to tell you, ain't gonna happen. No matter how brilliant you are in any subject, no matter how sighted-acting you learn to be, even if you never touch your food, never walk with a cane, never read Braille, never connect your smartphone to a blue tooth keyboard, never pay attention to sonic traffic lights, never buy a caller ID device, in short, never involve yourself in anything construable as adaptive accessibility, you're still blind. That's right. You're still blind. To them, you're still marked. You'll never be one of them. No matter how color coordinated your wardrobe is, no matter how much public transportation you take, even if you can grocery shop independently, do your own laundry, clean your own house, bear and raise your own children, you're still blind. To them, you're still not in the club. And, as long as you ain't in the club, they'll reject you on any technicality they can find within the law.
So, since no assimilation into the sighted world will ever be enough to transform our blindness into complete equality, I say screw it! Assimilate what works for us and ditch what don't. After all, we should know by now that we ain't gonna get no prize for being the best assimilator. No matter how sighted we try to make ourselves, we're still blind.


Orlando




Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 01:10 PM 1/4/2021, Gene wrote:
No, I'm not just wrong. I'm saying that left behind depends on who
you are. the person who uses the computer for purposes such as I've discussed won't be left behind. A lot of blind people use computers for browsing, e-mail, streaming, and other such purposes. They will not be left behind, they use programs for which there is plenty of material for blind people to learn from created for blind people. If you use a computer for other purposes, then you may be left behind and it is important to know how to translate mouse instructions and how to review the screen in the ways your screen-reader provides. the general statement you will be left behind assumes a certain kind of user and is so general that it is meaningless. If you are going to make such statements, you need to define who you are talking about.

Bravo! What does being "left behind" actually mean? I haven't been able to find even a vaguely music-related job since finishing my Ph.D. Am I left behind? If I want to use a certain audio plugins with no standard controls or text labels in its interface, am I being left behind? What if I just want to use my computer to read email, browse the web and open documents? Am I being left behind by preferring keyboard-oriented technical materials?
As these random examples demonstrate, some over-educated fools like me end up getting left behind no matter how much we bust our brains and humps trying to excel. The game is rigged against us because we can't see; plain and simple.
For others, our requirements and expectations are not stratospheric. We're so close to the bottom that being left behind doesn't feel abnormal.
If being left behind means I can't get a job even with a Ph.D., there's not much I can do in my end to fix that. I took all the steps I was supposed to take. If being left behind means an old lady runs out of hard drive space because she has never cleaned out her recycle bin or attachments, someone teaches her how to do these things, or she buys a bigger drive and presto! not left behind anymore.
Many of you know the most famous lines of the Serenity Prayer, the rest of which was not blessed winch similar inspiration: "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."
The most important part is "the wisdom to know the difference". Many blind people out here think their lot will improve if they talk exclusively about pointing and clicking icons, or don't use canes, or only use Iphones, or only use guide dogs. They think there's a magic formula that, when perfectly applied, will make sightlings forget we're blind and treat us like one of them. Sorry to tell you, ain't gonna happen. No matter how brilliant you are in any subject, no matter how sighted-acting you learn to be, even if you never touch your food, never walk with a cane, never read Braille, never connect your smartphone to a blue tooth keyboard, never pay attention to sonic traffic lights, never buy a caller ID device, in short, never involve yourself in anything construable as adaptive accessibility, you're still blind. That's right. You're still blind. To them, you're still marked. You'll never be one of them. No matter how color coordinated your wardrobe is, no matter how much public transportation you take, even if you can grocery shop independently, do your own laundry, clean your own house, bear and raise your own children, you're still blind. To them, you're still not in the club. And, as long as you ain't in the club, they'll reject you on any technicality they can find within the law.
So, since no assimilation into the sighted world will ever be enough to transform our blindness into complete equality, I say screw it! Assimilate what works for us and ditch what don't. After all, we should know by now that we ain't gonna get no prize for being the best assimilator. No matter how sighted we try to make ourselves, we're still blind.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 02:54 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
In many of these "pushback" exchanges, the pusher isn't teaching this person how to fish at all; they're just scolding them and sending them away for being piss-poor fishermen.
-
Exactly, and that's actually appropriate in many cases.   I am sick to death of the expectation that pervades many of these venues that I should not be able to expect that virtually anyone on them can do a basic web search and/or archive search, and particularly the former, long, long, long before they ever subscribed.

There are times where a good, solid dope slap is precisely what's needed to wake folks up from their torpor, and I have zero issue when someone elects to do so.  The guilty party should take offense, because they're being told off for having done something offensive.  Then they should think upon that and either do for themselves or ask about how they can learn to do for themselves.

And if you've never learned, and some of your best lessons, after being mocked, then you are a rare bird indeed.  Some of the most important lessons I've ever learned, particularly about how to approach asking for help, is after I've been given a firm verbal dressing down for having been lazy and rude and expecting to have things handed to me on a silver platter.  And that's not just in computing, either.

Adults need to behave like adults, and expect to be treated like same.  I've said it before and I'll say it again:  Not all venues should be considered remedial.  Most shouldn't.

And I will say that I don't treat those who are blind any differently than I do those who are sighted, with the exception of reasonable accommodations to that specific state.  Nor should I.  If I'd give a sighted person grief for a specific action then at least 99 times out of 100 the same grief should be given to an individual whose blind if they do the same thing.

Also, how we handle things as individuals, IRL (in real life) can diverge at times quite significantly from how we may present online.  There are scads of people I've helped privately but that's really not relevant to how things should work on-group.  There are reasons I have done many things privately, and that's mostly because I knew I could not answer definitively on-group because there were too many variables that could take days of back and forth but probably minutes of "let me look."  I (or you, or anyone assisting privately) get to make those decisions because they are in situations we have chosen and where two people, not over 1400, are likely involved.

 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 01:00 PM 1/4/2021, Chris Smart wrote:
Orlando, if you don't think of wave forms in at least a rudimentary
visual way, how do you understand the concept of splicing the audio at zero crossings then?

Easy. 0 crossing is the exact spot when one transient ends and another begins. If you select audio very gradually between two transients, you'll hear clicks either before the first, after the first, before or after the second. The safe place to cut/copy/paste audio is where there are no clicks or cutoffs between transients or their durations. So, even if you set a selection point at the beginning of a transient because you hear no clicks, you have to listen carefully to the end because you may end up clipping its sustain, duration or what some folks call "tail".
None of this involves the conception of drawn wave forms. When I do FM or modular synthesis, I don't think of sien or square wave forms as shapes; I think of them as sounds. A sien wave sounds most similar to a clarinet, since its second through fifth partials are most active.
If I need to hear how transients align on a metrical grid, I simply set up a metronome at the smallest subdivision. If I'm checking for sixteenths, I set the metronome at the sixteenth level rather than the quarter note. This way, I can hear exactly what does and doesn't align. Again, no need for wave form visualization.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:55 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
I will say that the reason you've likely never encountered any
exchanges about web searches and skills on most blind-centric lists is
precisely because the culture on many of these lists treats them as
simple Q&A with no expectation of prior effort. And I can say that
having been on them for years now, myself. There is a pernicious
attitude that if I want to ask, I ask, and that if anyone gives grief
about that the grief-giver is "the bad guy." Sorry, but no.
It is long past time that these groups not be treated that way, and
the only way that will change is if enough of the membership who knows
that doing so is irritating and counterproductive starts expressing
that and pushing back. I certainly haven't had any success on that
front as a virtual lone voice in the wilderness. In fact, most times
I get the, "But not everyone knows how!," tossed out as though I don't
know this. I do know this, and I was once in the "doesn't know how,"
camp. We all were, about virtually anything we may be anywhere from
just OK to wildly proficient in doing. You don't get there by not
doing it and you certainly won't get there if there is a significant
contingent that won't insist you do so, and engage in the admittedly
harder work in the short term of helping you to establish those skills.

We've all heard the possibly apocryphal Chinese adage, "Give a man fish and feed him for a day; teach him how to fish and feed him for life."
In many of these "pushback" exchanges, the pusher isn't teaching this person how to fish at all; they're just scolding them and sending them away for being piss-poor fishermen. For the most part, most blind people understand how painful it is to be dependent, especially if they've lost their sight later in life and were fiercely independent while sighted. They feel awful about having to ask simple questions or forgetting information they got before. I always help these folks, many of whom are elderly and will never become as computer-fluent as many of us are. If I know the answer to their question and can write it succinctly, it takes less time than admonishing them about not previously searching online for answers.
Many of our list members are relatively recent computer owners/users, taught an inferior step-by-step by rehab agencies who don't rehabilitate anyone from anything. Their entire world is now a scary place, where they cannot trust their remaining senses and where danger lurks on every corner. They read about online identity theft and viruses, about novice users turning their boxes into bricks, and become hyper-cautious about pressing even one key that hasn't been preapproved in someone's step-by-step instructions.
These lists are not the places to fault these people for losing their sight or for being incorrectly taught by the only agencies available to them. Just once, rather than embarking on one of these interminable threads admonishing people for allegedly not conducting online searches before asking questions, (something impossible to prove anyway), I'd like to see someone post a compassionate response:
"Don't feel bad, but your question is pretty basic and has been answered here and online. How long have you used computers? Can you do X, Y and Z? Have you ever tried to search online? Which browser and screen reader do you use? Can you navigate between search results and activate them? If you want to copy some text from what you read online, can you do that and paste it into a document? Do you have trouble understanding what's being described online (I.E., icons, sliders, dragable elements, animations, etc.)? If so, tell me which issues you're facing and I'll help you."
That's the kid of step-by-step that these folks need: how to navigate search results in a web browser, how to find actual responses on web forums amidst all the posting headers and
shameless ads, how to copy/paste text from the web into documents, how to explore top-level menu bars and ribbon controls, how to listen for keyboard mnemonics, how to configure screen readers to report keyboard mnemonics, etc.
None of us learned to fish by being mocked when we couldn't even hook a line or cast a pole. Yet, because it makes us feel self-righteous and important, especially in a world that so frequently tears us down with impunity, we visit the same suffering upon these hapless souls whose only "infractions" are being blind and knowing next to nothing about modern technologies.
In case some of you think I may preach more than I practice, ask around how many people I've emailed privately to help with their problems, how many times I've talked with them by phone and tandemed into their computers to do hours of configurations that would ultimately facilitate their lives. Ask how many people have gotten detailed explanations from me about Windows controls, settings, web browsers, audio applications, word processors, even registry and group policy settings.

Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 02:35 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
We've all heard the possibly apocryphal Chinese adage, "Give a man fish and feed him for a day; teach him how to fish and feed him for life."
-
Yet, see examples of my own previous plaint in this very topic.  I'm completely over the apologists who try to justify treating these groups as pure Q&A venues where absolutely no effort should be expected.  And I see those apologists trotting out the same weak arguments about "those poor unskilled" again and again and again.

Sorry, but no.

And there is a big difference between what I (or anyone really) should or would expect from a complete neophyte and someone we know to have been "around these parts" (regardless of what "these parts" might be, specifically) for years.   I have the patience of a saint with newbies, and have exhibited same.  I have the precise opposite for those who should know better and refuse to cultivate basic skills and employ them as a matter of course.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 02:31 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
Yet, no software manufacture--large or small--has been made to feel similar pressure about producing (for lack of a better word) blind versions or translations.
-
Sorry, darlin', but I have no idea what world you're living in, but it's not the one I'm living in or have been living in as accessibility considerations keep getting more and more and more considered over time.  The influence of the blind community on software manufacturers is hugely outsized compared to the size of the demographic, and has only been getting more influential.

And if you wish to dispute this, we have absolutely nothing further to discuss in this specific sphere.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:55 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
I will say that the reason you've likely never encountered any
exchanges about web searches and skills on most blind-centric lists is
precisely because the culture on many of these lists treats them as
simple Q&A with no expectation of prior effort. And I can say that
having been on them for years now, myself. There is a pernicious
attitude that if I want to ask, I ask, and that if anyone gives grief
about that the grief-giver is "the bad guy." Sorry, but no.
It is long past time that these groups not be treated that way, and
the only way that will change is if enough of the membership who knows
that doing so is irritating and counterproductive starts expressing
that and pushing back. I certainly haven't had any success on that
front as a virtual lone voice in the wilderness. In fact, most times
I get the, "But not everyone knows how!," tossed out as though I don't
know this. I do know this, and I was once in the "doesn't know how,"
camp. We all were, about virtually anything we may be anywhere from
just OK to wildly proficient in doing. You don't get there by not
doing it and you certainly won't get there if there is a significant
contingent that won't insist you do so, and engage in the admittedly
harder work in the short term of helping you to establish those skills.

We've all heard the possibly apocryphal Chinese adage, "Give a man fish and feed him for a day; teach him how to fish and feed him for life."
In many of thOrlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:45 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
The reason I say that is you will, eventually, be given instructions
by a kindly but clueless sighted person who says, "Click on the
paperclip button," because that's what they see and they know,
implicitly, what it does. It's really handy to have had someone
who's instructing you give you the sighted/announced pairs just
because you're likely to be confronted with only the former at some point.
But I do agree that, particularly if the audience is a blind one, I'd
likely reverse the ordering of the twins, giving the announced name
(or something awfully close to it, I never remember them all,
perfectly) first with the icon description afterward.
Windows is completely translated into dozens of languages. When Chinese or Japanese speakers do tech support for their compatriots, they don't use English terms for Windows elements because those elements have all been translated into their languages. While Hindi or Hebrew speakers understand that they must know English in order to talk about Windows with non-Indians or Israelis, they aren't burdened with the task of learning English just to use Windows.
This is a good analogy because we as blind people have allowed ourselves be bamboozled out of rights that all non-English speakers have. Every software manufacturer knows that if they don't produce translated versions, they won't sell product to non-English speakers. Yet, no software manufacture--large or small--has been made to feel similar pressure about producing (for lack of a better word) blind versions or translations. This is because non-English speakers petition software manufacturers to produce translated versions. Those who know English even offer to do these translations for free. Whereas, we have people among us insisting that our language is provincial, inferior and the primary reason we keep getting "left behind". Sighted Spanish and Portuguese speakers

don't get "left behind" for being unable to use Windows in English. Microsoft has never arrogantly maintained that they must learn English in order to use Windows because that position would constitute economic suicide. Only us blind people have been ingrained with such self-loathing that we would ridiculously insist, when communicating with each other, to use exclusively sighted terms such as points, clicks and icons, when we have a perfectly functional keyboard-oriented language of our own.
Orlando Enrique Fiol


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Chris Smart
 

Orlando, I love how you and Brian put things!


So, is Sarah "ablist"? to use a term that is currently in vogue?

On 2021-01-04 2:20 p.m., Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 12:38 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Most computer instructional material is not, and never will be,
written in keyboard centric language with screen reader output
noted.  I can't think of a single user of a computer who has never,
even once, needed to look up how to do something, however simple.
If you cannot use instructions written with a sighted audience in
mind, at all, then you will very rapidly get "left behind."  ? As
others, including yourself, I believe, have said every individual,
regardless of their sensory palette, lives in the world at large.
And if they cannot negotiate that world with compensations
appropriate to their situations, they will get left behind (and,
sadly, often do - and often play their own huge roles in that occurring)
Let's keep in mind that this thread began with Sarah's assertion that she teaches blind students using exclusively sighted terminology and procedures, even though she is also blind and could easily use more inclusive language, concepts and procedures.
A linguistic analogy may be in order here. In most South and Central American countries with sizable indigenous populations, both indigenous languages and Spanish are used. However, only Spanish is taught in schools and used in official capacities. Quechua or Nahuatl speakers understand all too well that if they expect to get ahead in a Spanish-centered world, they had better become fluent in Spanish. However, they still speak their indigenous languages among themselves, both in efforts to keep those languages alive and to affirm their sociocultural identities.
The reason these indigenous languages are either extinct or almost so is that both Spanish colonial administrations and upwardly-mobile indigenous people actively suppressed indigenous languages wherever they were spoken, even in villages and homes to the point where earlier generations of indigenous people forbade their children from speaking their languages. These probably well-meaning parents figured that if their children never learned their ancestral languages, they would have no trouble assimilating Spanish and not get "left behind". No surprise, Latin America's indigenous people are its poorest, under-educated and under-employed. Only now, they're also largely languageless, their languages having literally died off because various forces became convinced that they were categorically inferior.
So, I'm just going to come out and say this in plain language: We blind folks, especially among ourselves, deserve to discuss technologies and all other aspects of our lives using language developed by and for us, rather than foreign language inherently designed to exclude us. Anyone refusing to use accessibly inclusive language with blind/disabled people is as evil and heartless as all our able/sighted adversaries who actively discriminate against us. In political terms, this position is treasonous and seditious.
Orlando




Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 02:01 PM, Laurie Mehta wrote:
Could you please change the subject line for the archive purposes and for the purpose of people who may want to bypass this topic?
-
No.  The original message was an admin notice, and shortly after that the following was included by the group owner in message number  
"Thanks everyone for this discussion. Ordinarily, I would say that this should be moved to the chat list, but maybe we'll keep it going for a bit longer, as it seems like an important dialog to be having."

That was a clear breaking point from the original Admin notice, and was the opportunity for anyone who needed to do so to Mute this Topic if all they wanted to do was to have reviewed the Admin Notice.

Groups.io gives members the ability to control the messages they get, and they need to use them.  If you've read the admin notice, but are still interested in wherever this topic continues to go, then leave it open and keep reading it.  You already know that the real admin notice part of it was concluded days ago.

I can see no reason to retitle the topic at all, because it is not, in reality, a single topic.  It's a freeform meta topic that will eventually burn out, but while it's still alive should remain in its original container, mostly because that makes it easy for those who wish to mute it to do so.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:38 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Most computer instructional material is not, and never will be,
written in keyboard centric language with screen reader output
noted. I can't think of a single user of a computer who has never,
even once, needed to look up how to do something, however simple.
If you cannot use instructions written with a sighted audience in
mind, at all, then you will very rapidly get "left behind." ? As
others, including yourself, I believe, have said every individual,
regardless of their sensory palette, lives in the world at large.
And if they cannot negotiate that world with compensations
appropriate to their situations, they will get left behind (and,
sadly, often do - and often play their own huge roles in that occurring)
Let's keep in mind that this thread began with Sarah's assertion that she teaches blind students using exclusively sighted terminology and procedures, even though she is also blind and could easily use more inclusive language, concepts and procedures.
A linguistic analogy may be in order here. In most South and Central American countries with sizable indigenous populations, both indigenous languages and Spanish are used. However, only Spanish is taught in schools and used in official capacities. Quechua or Nahuatl speakers understand all too well that if they expect to get ahead in a Spanish-centered world, they had better become fluent in Spanish. However, they still speak their indigenous languages among themselves, both in efforts to keep those languages alive and to affirm their sociocultural identities.
The reason these indigenous languages are either extinct or almost so is that both Spanish colonial administrations and upwardly-mobile indigenous people actively suppressed indigenous languages wherever they were spoken, even in villages and homes to the point where earlier generations of indigenous people forbade their children from speaking their languages. These probably well-meaning parents figured that if their children never learned their ancestral languages, they would have no trouble assimilating Spanish and not get "left behind". No surprise, Latin America's indigenous people are its poorest, under-educated and under-employed. Only now, they're also largely languageless, their languages having literally died off because various forces became convinced that they were categorically inferior.
So, I'm just going to come out and say this in plain language: We blind folks, especially among ourselves, deserve to discuss technologies and all other aspects of our lives using language developed by and for us, rather than foreign language inherently designed to exclude us. Anyone refusing to use accessibly inclusive language with blind/disabled people is as evil and heartless as all our able/sighted adversaries who actively discriminate against us. In political terms, this position is treasonous and seditious.
Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 02:06 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
I do, however, strenuously dispute the notion that we blindies, even when writing for each other, should deliberately use impenetrable visual jargon, for fear that if we use blind equivalents, our readers would end up coddled and fall behind.
-
With which I agree.  One should always target one's writings or what one is saying based on the target audience, be that an audience of one or thousands.

But, I also don't think that's exactly what Sarah was saying, either.  I interpret what she said as meaning that there are times, whether she's doing the writing, or lecturing, or whatever, when a mixed audience can be anticipated and in those instances, the correct terminology to use should be that of the majority of one's audience.  Because that's the case, insisting on any one class of jargon is dangerous and misguided, particularly when one's own demographic happens to be a minority/niche.  I have never really read her as being sadistic (and I'm not saying others are) but more of being very blunt and, at times, probably a bit more rigid than I am on the issue.

It is incumbent on the communicator to make what he or she is saying as easily comprehensible as possible in a given context.  But a given context may not be your ideal one, and knowing how to deal with whatever happens to be ubiquitous is to anyone's advantage.
-- 
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 01:37 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
Then, some of the analogies are just downright confusing. Black is supposed to mean darkness, an absence of all color. Yet, when the color drains from faces, we don't say that people go black; we say they go pale. To say nothing of the terrible term "colored" for Black people. How can they be simultaneously dark and colored?
-
Orlando,

           Several different concepts are at play in your observations.  First, color, strictly speaking, is only about light.  It is a property of what wavelengths are reflected back to eyes that can, of course, see.  When color gets spoken of in the physics sense, it's discussed in an additive sense, and all colors together form what gets called white light (and, no, I can't define white beyond the presence of all colors simultaneously such that something appears white).  Pigments actually work by subtracting wavelengths from the full visible spectrum and only allowing certain wavelengths to be reflected back to your eyes.  In essence, they're light sponges that only pick up certain wavelengths, while bouncing others back.

Black, when used in reference to light, means (if one is being strict) the absence of all light.  But in the real world that's not generally achieved, though things come close.  You will hear discussions of ultra-black paints and, believe me, they are a far more intense experience than what's typical.

Now, on to not going black, but going pale.  That, too, is 100% accurate.  Black, when used as a reference to someone with a lot of melanin in their skin, has never meant literal black as in the absence of all light.  And as to colored, which was once the chosen term by those now generally referred to as African-American or Black [see the NAACP], this is relative to the much, much paler tone of white skin, which is not, literally white.

All skin tones, regardless of their base color, have the undertone given by blood flowing beneath the surface of the skin.  When we are embarrassed (and you can often literally feel this, even if you can't see it) or for certain other forms of emotion there is often a rush of blood under the cheeks or sometimes to the whole face, resulting in what's called a blush, which is clearly visible to most who can see.  Hence the phrase, "The blushing bride," and similar.  Brides aren't embarrassed, though, but the way most of us experience the biggest blushes is when we are embarrassed, whether for bad reasons or good.  When one gets an emotional shock, something about what the body does very often causes precisely the opposite, where instead of blood rushing to the face it literally drains from under the skin, and no matter what your base skin tone that results in "going pale."  Pale and flushed (which is often the term used for blushing full face rather than just cheeks) are relative terms, not absolute ones, so anyone can go pale or become flushed.  Of course, the paler your base skin tone the easier it is to see blushing/flushing, and the darker your base skin tone the easier it is to see "going pale" because the state changes visually are more dramatic.  Almost everyone has heard the description of someone who's Caucasian being described as "pasty white," which means they have relatively little pink to their skin tone from blood beneath the surface to begin with.  If they blush, it's like a light bulb has gone off in red beneath their skin, whereas you'd be much harder pressed to detect paleness say, from an impending faint, were it to occur.  

And the opposing end of the light spectrum goes from true black, which means no color whatsoever, to white, which means the presence of all wavelengths.  Those of us who are sighted actually generally think of black as a color more than white, but both, because they're on the spectrum of visual perception, are commonly considered colors.  But it's all the things in between that, strictly speaking, actually are colors in the sense of specific combinations of wavelengths of light that are somewhere between none at all and all at equal intensity, which produces what we call white light.  [If you're into literal noise, think white noise versus pink noise and I believe there are other classes based on what frequencies are there in combination and at what intensities.]
 --

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:38 PM 1/4/2021, Devin Prater wrote:
If I'm reading an article online written by one of the millions of
tech news sources out there, it's
probably meant for a sighted audience. I must take whatever keywords I
can find and work with whatever application based on "clicking" menu items,
and such terminology. But when I read things from blind people, I expect to
read a straightforward, keyboard-driven account of how to get things done.

That has been my entire point all along. I have never disputed Sarah's contention that we must understand the sighted world's workings. I do, however, strenuously dispute the notion that we blindies, even when writing for each other, should deliberately use impenetrable visual jargon, for fear that if we use blind equivalents, our readers would end up coddled and fall behind. Blind unemployment is not a byproduct of too many keyboard-oriented articles coddling us and keeping us in the dark about sighted terminology. Our chronic unemployment results from sighted forces using their discriminatory powers to keep us down, regardless of how much we know or how many advanced degrees we've earned.
Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Laurie Mehta
 

I am making a request regarding this thread. Due to the subject line that was chosen, it seems that the topic is something that should be actually a notice from the administration that we should all please read. However, the discussion under this subject line has definitely evolved from that original purpose. Could you please change the subject line for the archive purposes and for the purpose of people who may want to bypass this topic?
This chat that is going on is not something I am interested in and yet I hesitate to ignore something that the administration has asked the list to please read. Thank you for your attention in this matter and thank you for this list to discuss questions regarding NVDA.
I apologize in advance if the dictation I used has not come out clearly. My laptop is in need of service and so I am temporarily using just an iPhone. Thanks all, Laurie Mehta


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:15 PM 1/4/2021, Gene wrote:
You live in a sighted world. You are not in a sighted world
meaning that you must think and do everything as a sighted person does. You are blind and there are certain things that need to be done differently or work better because other senses than sight are being used.

Excellently phrased!

I don't read print by getting books with raised print letters. I
read Braille. I determine when a light is in my favor by listening at a street corner. When I use a computer, I think in terms of keyboard commands unless the situation requires me to do otherwise. I obviously don't use a mouse most of the time.
There are people who would and who do benefit by knowing how to
translate sighted computer instructions into keyboard equivalents or, if the program doesn't provide for that, using a virtual mouse. there are blind people who don't, such as someone whose only interests are browsing, e-mail, a certain amount of word processing, as examples. Saying you will be left behind is such a broad generalization that it is meaningless.

This crapola about being left behind is the latest sighted tactic in keeping us out and changing nothing to accommodate us. I have a doctoral degree in music theory, yet I've been quietly denied employment under various trivial pretexts. Like me, plenty of blind folks have earned advanced degrees in technical fields, the sciences and humanities, only to be left behind, not because of how we use computers, but because sightlings use their power to neutralize us. If expertise in sighted culture and language actually benefited the blind, 75% of us wouldn't still be unemployed or working crappy minimum-wage jobs with no opportunities for advancement.
It's very convenient for the sighted world to maintain that if we're being left behind, it's our fault for being insufficiently conversant with its workings. But there are blind programmers and web designers on these very lists who eke out their livings, while their sighted counterparts merely point and click at object libraries and select from prefabricated code modules rather than write their own.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

I was addressing Sarah, not you and i mentioned her by hname. I don't love splitting hairs. I make distinctions where they are necessary for clear thought.

I'm saying that Sarah, who may believe that she is thinking visually, may only be using a way that some sighted people are thinking when they take an action because a lot of sighted people may use other methods for doing the same thing so her model is incomplete and circular.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 12:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 01:39 PM, tim wrote:
I'm saying that your entire model and justification is flawed because you are still using what you know, not all the methods that are available to sighted people, thus you are using circular logic.-
Sighted people have been using "point and click" and GUI virtually exclusively for decades now.

You love splitting hairs and wanting to argue that I am not taking into account the rare exception case. I am not now, nor am ever, interested in discussion of the rare exception cases when what is dirt common is what's the focus.

And, Gene, believe it or not, and no insult intended, I do actually know a lot more about how the sighted computing world works than you ever can, or will, based strictly on what you have offered about yourself. When it comes to this arena, I actually am the subject matter expert, not you.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

~ Brian Vogel

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