Date   

screen shade

Josh Kennedy
 

Instead of screen shade. Get a black piece of paper and put it over your screen. And voila, nobody can see your screen at all.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


choosing a new computer

Josh Kennedy
 

Hi

There is a much easier way to get rid of all new computer junkware and drivers at once.

  1. Go into settings.
  2. Go into update and security.
  3. Go into recovery.
  4. Click the link that says learn more about resetting this pc.
  5. Click yes to open windows defender security center when windows asks.
  6. Click get started and follow directions to wipe out all that junkware and have a nice fresh reinstalled and cleaned up and fully updated windows.

Josh

 


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Chris Mullins
 

Hi
I agree with Joseph. Development time should be dedicated to improving the screen reading capabilities of NVDA. If someone wants to develop an add-on, that's fine but it would be of no interest to me. In the meantime, people using separate monitors can always switch them off and laptop users could use an external keyboard and close the laptop lid.

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 17 December 2017 22:07
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I believe that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on screen reading, with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from experience that just following the lead of another screen reader just because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it, including sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say other screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not simply switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have both advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote access, etc.).
From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!











Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I'm talking about small shops where you don't perhaps get the discounts but they can be very helpful if you get a problem.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Antony Stone" <antony.stone@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before


I didn't even realise it was possible to get a computer shop to change the
Bios in a new machine for you.

Are you talking about using Coreboot, or something else?

Antony.

On Monday 18 December 2017 at 11:46:28, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io wrote:

I have to say, I've failed too get one before the festivities, but yes,
Dell do build good Laptops. It is a shame they keep on doing daft things
on a laptop which at least is not for gaming or just entertainment. I can
see that unless I can get the shop to change the bios etc, and test the
screenreader the first few weeks is going to be hair pulling time. I know
a friend sat down with an IT man from his local school for two hours, most
of that time was taking off crap, putting Microsoft drivers back to
default and reconfiguring sensible defaults.
Brian
--
You can tell that the day just isn't going right when you find yourself using
the telephone before the toilet.

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


Delay

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Note there is a delay in messages on this list again, so apologies if my or other replies appear in odd places.
The delay seems to be at Virgin again.
Brian

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Re: NVDA 2017.4 cannot update progress bars on expanded file explorer copy or move dialogs

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

First I've heard of that it might?
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bhavya shah" <bhavya.shah125@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4 cannot update progress bars on expanded file explorer copy or move dialogs


Hi Kendell,
I am not fully certain, however I am under the impression that the
NVDA Development e-mail list is still hosted by Sourceforge and hasn't
yet transitioned to Groups.io. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
Thanks.

On 12/18/17, Joseph Lee <@joslee> wrote:
Hi,

Looks like the required event is not fired by the progress bar control
(because I can confirm this problem).

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
coffeekingms@...
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:42 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4 cannot update progress bars on expanded file
explorer copy or move dialogs



Hey all

Sorry for not posting for a while, I've just completed a

Permanent move to windows 10 from Linux. I now have a new pc, an ultrabook
and both windows and NVDA perform much better. I've decided to get much
more
involved in helping NVDA, and windows itself, get better. To explain the
issue I just reported, if you have a file copy or move operation in
progress, windows explorer will open an information dialog. If the dialog
is
in it's normal state, the progress bar beeps and speech updates work just
fine. But there's a more updates button or checkbox, and if that is
checked,
the dialog expands to give more information. When that happens, the
progress
bar updates no longer work. You can of course use screen review to look at
the dialog and get the updates that way. I also have report background
progress bar updates checked in object presentation settings, gotten to by
pressing NVDA+ctrl+o. This is on NVDA 2017.4 with joseph lee's windows 10
app essentials add on installed. I'm not sure how to provide more info or
proof of the problem, should I activate debug mode, or change the log level
and post a log? I've been a part of NVDA development before, but it was
back
when windows 7 first came out and procedures might have changed. If there's
a new developers guide somewhere, point me to it and I'll read it so you
guys don't have to repeat information.



Also, I've been trying to post this to the development group on groups.io.
I've been rejected by both the sourceforge list, I think I might have
unsubscribed from that one, and the groups.io one, nbvda-dev@groups.io
<mailto:nbvda-dev@groups.io> . Did I unsubscribe from it and don't remember
or was I removed from it for something? I don't want to clutter up the user
support list with development emails but I couldn't think of anywhere else
to post this one, at least initially. If I can get on the development list,
I'll send all further dev stuff there.

Thanks

Kendell Clark

sent from my ultrabook








--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@...
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Mobile Number: +91 7506221750


Re: NVDA 2017.4 cannot update progress bars on expanded file explorer copy or move dialogs

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I don't think there is one on groups.io yet. I still see posts to the sourceforge one
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 2:42 AM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA 2017.4 cannot update progress bars on expanded file explorer copy or move dialogs


Hey all
Sorry for not posting for a while, I’ve just completed a
Permanent move to windows 10 from Linux. I now have a new pc, an ultrabook and both windows and NVDA perform much better. I’ve decided to get much more involved in helping NVDA, and windows itself, get better. To explain the issue I just reported, if you have a file copy or move operation in progress, windows explorer will open an information dialog. If the dialog is in it’s normal state, the progress bar beeps and speech updates work just fine. But there’s a more updates button or checkbox, and if that is checked, the dialog expands to give more information. When that happens, the progress bar updates no longer work. You can of course use screen review to look at the dialog and get the updates that way. I also have report background progress bar updates checked in object presentation settings, gotten to by pressing NVDA+ctrl+o. This is on NVDA 2017.4 with joseph lee’s windows 10 app essentials add on installed. I’m not sure how to provide more info or proof of the problem, should I activate debug mode, or change the log level and post a log? I’ve been a part of NVDA development before, but it was back when windows 7 first came out and procedures might have changed. If there’s a new developers guide somewhere, point me to it and I’ll read it so you guys don’t have to repeat information.

Also, I’ve been trying to post this to the development group on groups.io. I’ve been rejected by both the sourceforge list, I think I might have unsubscribed from that one, and the groups.io one, nbvda-dev@groups.io<mailto:nbvda-dev@groups.io>. Did I unsubscribe from it and don’t remember or was I removed from it for something? I don’t want to clutter up the user support list with development emails but I couldn’t think of anywhere else to post this one, at least initially. If I can get on the development list, I’ll send all further dev stuff there.
Thanks
Kendell Clark
sent from my ultrabook


Re: competition

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Not entirely the thing. I think that the screenreaders try to add things that are genuinely useful, no matter what their cost is. That has little to do with a feature.
In my humble oppinion this function should be a part of windows itself, inedeed why windows cannot have a proper turn my screen off command I will never know. If you are using your machine to listen to audio do you really want the screen on all the time?
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Don H" <lmddh50@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 10:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] competition


When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA should also have the same function the main question is whether or not NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to pay for a screen reader.



Re: new avira interface

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I think you need to contact them and point out the problems. They may well have a system where you can use the old verssion with updates.

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "enes sarıbaş" <enes.saribas@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] new avira interface


this is very problamatic, as I cannot select, or perform any action on items in the web interface. Also, I cannot access the settings via nvda.


On 12/16/2017 3:17 AM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
hi all,

Has anyone figured out how to use the new avira interface?




Re: Addon to solve Captcha?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Think about what you are asking for.
If it was that simple what would be the point of using it to detect that you are a human. Most of these do have an audio version however.
I still maintain these devices do not work very well nowadays as computers are getting better at them and the spammers will always find a way to spam.
No I'm thinking they should be using some language or idiom based question in the language the site is displayed in or simply use a double emeial system to make sure the email is legitimate. If every spammer had to individually reply to lots of emails with slightly different links it would cramp their style.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "George Zaynoun" <humorlessgeza@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:22 AM
Subject: [nvda] Addon to solve Captcha?


Does such an addon to NVDA exists and if yes where to find and what
browsers does it support?

--
Georges Zeinoun
Timmerv. 6A ITR LGH1102, 54163 SKÖVDE SWEDEN
Tel: +46 (500) 48 29 29 +46 (500) 43 55 11


Re: Addon to solve Captcha?

 


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well. Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link.
You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen.


Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop paranoia which is sadly rife in places of work these days.
It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us.


I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well, in that many many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces, its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones that go dark when you plug in a set of phones.

However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and grab your cash!

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <@joslee>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hi,
In the current digital age, privacy is something we think can be guaranteed at all costs. However, I and some of us argue that this isn't. I do understand that shouldersurfing is a problem, but it is just one form of breaching privacy, with others being remote access, keystroke logging and what not. For example, with help from Remote Support add-on, a user may listen in on remote conversations (as in what NVDA is saying) or keystrokes. Similarly, NVDA itself can inject and intercept messages from other apps if given appropriate privileges. Given the evidence before us, I believe the topicality of including other possibilities is justified (topicality means if a topic is in scope or not for a debate).
As for screen shade being a screen reader feature and proposition that it bridges the gap between sighted and the blind: the overall purpose of a screen reader is to present screen information in an efficient manner. Given that definition, because screen shade is designed to "improve privacy by presenting what appears to be a blank screen so sighted folks cannot look over their shoulders", and screen reading and privacy are two separate fields, I argue that this argument does not hold. Although some may say that both fields are related - in that screen readers can announce private information presented, when looking at mechanics of these concepts and products, they are still two different things. Although a screen shade could guarantee privacy, due to the nature of screen readers and their internals, a screen shade won't truly bridge the gap between blind and sighted people as far as privacy is concerned.
Borrowing features from other screen readers: I do understand that screen readers did borrow features from one another. For example, JAWS's touch cursor is NVDA's object navigation, and on Windows 10, NVDA includes OCR feature. These features fulfill the purpose of screen readers: access to information on display. But there are costs: misuse of gold standards and loss of distinctiveness. If we follow a gold standard blindly, especially if a standard turns out to be faulty, developers will find themselves fixing standards later with more costs involved than implementing this standard in the past. IN regards to distinctiveness, one dimension of competition is distinctive appeal; with screen readers boasting similar features, people will need to dive deeper to find out differences between products. In case of screen shade and borrowing features from others, because of the purpose of screen reading versus privacy tool, it won't make sense to say that we can just borrow features from others.
Possible use as a development module: one thing the affirmative did not bring up was screen shade's possible utility as a development assistance module. For the scope of this debate, topicality does not hold, and also because such a tool already exists in the form of an add-on.
Overall, our contentions are:
1. Purpose of a screen reader: just read whatever is presented versus act as a privacy guarantee tool.
2. Private information display: display versus other forms of output.
3. User experience: read what's out there versus go one step further and shield users from shouldersurfers.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bhavya shah
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,
As a proponent of a screen shade like functionality in NVDA, let me offer some points of proposition as well as some rebuttle in this ongoing debate:
In this increasingly digitized, computerized and electronic era, privacy, for absolutely any and all users, has become a key focus area for software products. Extremely personal and confidential information is stored and accessed on laptop and desktop computers at school, workplace or other public settings. Would it be permissible for blind and visually impaired computer users be left vulnerable to sighted shouldersurfers – those with sight who peep literally over a blind individual’s shoulders to surreptitiously follow his/her activities?
Side proposition is here to demonstrate to you how the proposed feature is very much relevant for a screen reader and can prove vital in significantly improving the privacy of a screen reader user. Before introducing our substantives though, I would like to offer two points of rebuttle on the basis of what we have already heard from side opposition.
Legitimacy of the privacy argument- Shouldersurfing is a potential risk manifold amplified in case of a blind person since he/she has no way of detecting this. As a result, it is imperative that the computer screen itself do something to resolve this huge loophole in a VI user’s computer usage experience. Thus, since a screen reader’s function and philosophy is to bridge the gap between the blind consumer and the computer screen, and along the way, do whatever it can to arm the consumer with the tools required to achieve equivalent efficiency, privacy and usability as its sighted counterpart, side proposition maintains that screen dimming is of substantial use in the context of visually impaired computer users, and we view inclusion of other methods of privacy invasions such as remote access Trojans, speech synthesis (which, with experience, is often cranked up to a rate unintelligible to the average human), etc., in the present debate and discussion, as digressions on the part of side opposition for all these techniques are dissimilar to shouldersurfing, the problem screen dimming intends to fix, in that they are not exclusive to the blind and thus do not warrant the intervention of a screen reader.
Inspiration for this feature request – Screen readers, and software in general, often borrow and lend ideas and concepts for features and functionalities. While basing a proposal to one screen reader primarily on the premise that other screen readers showcase it is not constructive, using it as a supporting argument, particularly by citing its reception among its user base, is, we believe, valid and justified. As iss the case with screen dimming, a multitude of other usage scenarios, justifications and reasoning in favour of this proposal have already been provided, and inspiration from other screen readers plays the role of only a supporting argument.
On second thought, I suppose it might be more fruitful to allow side opposition to respond to the above provided points of rebuttle before I proceed towards side proposition’s substantives, which, more or less, are already out there for review and simply require a cohesive summarization.
Thanks.
P.S. Let us have a constructive point-by-point debate on this topic spiritedly like we have had so far. :)

On 12/18/17, enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@...> wrote:
however joseph, This fact doesn't change the fact that 99% of sighted
people cannot breach the screen privacy features of screen readers.
Heck, I used to turn on keyboard help to prevent people from pressing
keys when I was away from my pc. A sighted person is extremely
unlikely to know how to re-enable the screen. Most users, unless they
are advanced users, are totally hopeless when they cannot see the screen.


On 12/18/2017 5:20 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Rebuttal: privacy these days is something you don’t really “see”.
Take advanced malware, for example that can take a look at what
you’re doing without raising suspicion and no need to keep the monitor on.
That’s the point I’m getting at. Screen shade is just one piece;
others are user attitude, programs (both good and bad), and the
target or info one is looking at.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf
Of *David Moore
*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 5:52 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

I did not think about the fact that a sighted person can look over
their shoulder for prying eyes.

That is a great point! Good come back LOL!

I like good debates and discussions, because I just learned something
right there!

David Moore

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows 10

*From: *Kevin Chao <mailto:kevinchao89@...>
*Sent: *Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:40 PM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Screen shade is useful for protecting confidential work information,
which we may not know about prying eyes, and a sighted person can see
when someone is looking over their shoulders.

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:27 PM Gene <gsasner@...
<mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

As far as I know you can't just turn off the screen in the Windows
settings and doing so may cause you real trouble if you can do
it. If you unexpectedly need sighted assistance, to deal with
some sort of maintenance or performance problem, the screen should
be on.

The screen shade has the advantage that the screen is still on and
a sighted person can work with the machine if needed.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

*From:*David Moore <mailto:jesusloves1966@...>

*Sent:*Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:02 PM

*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

*Subject:*Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that
many people will really need, and will help them do a job. Many
features in some screen readers are just not needed. You do not
need a feature to do searches for you, when you can do a Google
search. You don’t need this screen shade, because you can just
turn off your screen in the Windows settings.

I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.

It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for
someone to be employed. We need screen readers to help people work
many jobs, that should be the first importance. Next,
intertainment uses need to be accessible with a screen reader. If
you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!

NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I
am so glad it doesn’t.

It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to
install JAWS, and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.

David Moore

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
for Windows 10

*From: *Gene New Zealand <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>
*Sent: *Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi

I agree with Joseph.

There might be things from other screen readers we might use or
might not use so I would rather the developers concentrate on
screen reader features that help.

if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that
way if one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.

then down the track it could be added like you see with some
addons that code gets added to the core of nvda.

Gene nz

On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:

well fare enough, but I still think it should be in the core
one day in nvda. if you don't want to use it then fare
enough but I feel this is a feature for us blind screen reader
users that is needed and would be a good thing for nvda to
have built in.

On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the
community, I believe that NVDA's purpose is screen
reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on screen reading,
with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do
understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the
one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from experience
that just following the lead of another screen reader just
because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with.
Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot
guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of
breaching it, including sounds, speech, remote access,
data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick
via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little
program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't
work. I think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just
to say that you won't consider it if people say other
screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy.
But why not simply switching off the screen (power
button on an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or
similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have
both advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the
energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is
more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of
the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal
is send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain
shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is
used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader
users. Note the quotation marks around
"guarantee", as it does not really guarantee
privacy, as there are means to circumvent this
(speech output, braille displays, remote access,
etc.).
From what I can gather, this function does not
result in extended battery life nor power savings.
When this function is turned on, an overlay window
is imposed on top of other windows, and turning
this off removes this overlay. As I said above,
this does not provide privacy as many of you may
think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my
overall opinion is that it should not. If people
want it, then I think an add-on would be a more
appropriate solution. Only after looking at
justifications and costs should developers
consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and
personally for me, a justification that goes along
the lines of, "because another screen reader has
this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly
about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the
monitor, I do not understand why it would not save
on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet,
smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power
sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between
laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes
(signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor
only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it
up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with
Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that,
although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to
which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I
have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it
provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on
some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to
windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality
is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about
something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io wrote:

From what I know about Windows and indeed most
screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going
to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought
it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never
actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you
want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a
desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@...
<mailto:briang1@...>, putting
'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
<mailto:kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature
for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an
add-on or natively?
Thanks!











--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness
related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless
of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK
sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their
computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to
you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
(Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified
expert near you, please visit the following link
https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page
contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from
around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA
expert exam.


--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@... Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91 7506221750


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Antony Stone
 

I didn't even realise it was possible to get a computer shop to change the
Bios in a new machine for you.

Are you talking about using Coreboot, or something else?

Antony.

On Monday 18 December 2017 at 11:46:28, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io wrote:

I have to say, I've failed too get one before the festivities, but yes,
Dell do build good Laptops. It is a shame they keep on doing daft things
on a laptop which at least is not for gaming or just entertainment. I can
see that unless I can get the shop to change the bios etc, and test the
screenreader the first few weeks is going to be hair pulling time. I know
a friend sat down with an IT man from his local school for two hours, most
of that time was taking off crap, putting Microsoft drivers back to
default and reconfiguring sensible defaults.
Brian
--
You can tell that the day just isn't going right when you find yourself using
the telephone before the toilet.

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I have to say, I've failed too get one before the festivities, but yes, Dell do build good Laptops. It is a shame they keep on doing daft things on a laptop which at least is not for gaming or just entertainment. I can see that unless I can get the shop to change the bios etc, and test the screenreader the first few weeks is going to be hair pulling time.
I know a friend sat down with an IT man from his local school for two hours, most of that time was taking off crap, putting Microsoft drivers back to default and reconfiguring sensible defaults.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Chao" <kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before


This thread has been very relevant for me recently, as I was looking for a
good business-grade Windows laptop. I tried the LeNovo ThinkPad via Amazon,
but sent it back, and picked-up Dell XPS 9360 from Microsoft Store
yesterday.

The 2 issues that I experienced are with the Realtek audio and media keys.
Fortunately, it was possible to sort the former by turning off the sound
effects/enhancements and have latter solved via BIOS set to use standard
function keys.

I was unpleasantly surprised that these were issues on a vanilla Windows
machine from Microsoft, but glad that it’s possible to set these normally.

This is my second XPS I had, first was in 2009, now again in 2017—very well
built, great keyboard, light, fast.

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io <
the.big.white.shepherd=googlemail.com@groups.io> wrote:

I use one and have no problems, I can't think of any tips it just
works. it is the pro4 I hear there on surface Pro5 now.

On 07/12/2017 01:45, Don H wrote:

Any positive or negative comments concerning NVDA on a Microsoft Surface
Pro along with its available keyboard?






Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Angela Delicata
 

Agree: privacy is somehting whic does not really exist now as every good experienced computer user could potentially see everything that's  on your machine.

And do not follow Jaws because it is getting worse  as it contains features which, as you say, do not always work well: this is because from my humble opinion, it is not taken care of as in the past, but the price is still high smile.

Best.
Angela from Italy

Il 17/12/2017 23:06, Joseph Lee ha scritto:
Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I believe that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on screen reading, with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from experience that just following the lead of another screen reader just because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it, including sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say other screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not simply switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have both advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote access, etc.).
From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!











---
Questa email è stata esaminata alla ricerca di virus da AVG.
http://www.avg.com


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Adriani Botez
 

There are lots of alternatives on how to protect the screen. Dictation is for example not a core feature in nvda. Why? Well, because nvda is a screen reader and it has to do its job as good as possible. I wonder if dictation has been discussed as hard as the screen feature since I know lots of people who use dictation bridge. But by the way, many people dictate their private messages in public but deem the screen. So, I think most people use this to save batery rather than data privacy.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 18.12.2017 um 08:43 schrieb Lenron <lenron93@...>:

The reasons he is giving that this shouldn't be done seems to me to be
a dislike of the feature, or maybe because he is never in a situation
where this could be useful.

On 12/18/17, Tyler Wood <tcwood12@...> wrote:
Hi,
Thank you for this.
It doesn't matter who uses it and who doesn't - it's not like screen
shade is going to take up a ton of space in NVDA anyway. Regardless of
whether or not a screen reader has this built in (everything does at
this point, even android), the argument that security and privacy is
already bad enough implies that a) The people who would use screen
shade have bad security practices and b) That it's simply logical that
we don't provide an alternative way to protect said privacy because
there are other third party ways. Or, better yet as someone pointed
out, turn off our computers!

In this day and age where technology is at the forefront, would you
enjoy it if your boss ambled on into your office while you were
quickly, on your break, looking at your bank or paying a bill?
Checking your email? Yes, I'm aware this in itself is probably viewed
as security practice - but a sighted person could just click out of
the page before their boss even saw what was on the screen.

Does screen shade not have something to do with 'reading' in privacy?
I should also add here that most computers later than 2012 aren't
going to have the second screen only option work unless there is
physically a second monitor connected. Anything past sandy bridge and
Intel Atom z series processors the option won't stick. Running third
party software is hit or miss, and often times miss. If you yourself
wouldn't use it, it doesn't mean it wouldn't come in handy for others
and I'm really failing to see the problem here. The reasons given are
vague and, as Gean pointed out, lack so much logic. It's essentially -
don't bother, we're not going to do it and you might as well shut off
your computer because nobody is safe these days.

A small part of me is wondering if it's because another did it first?
If it isn't doable in NVDA I'd rather know now. That's fine. It would
make more sense than the reasons given at this point. Sorry.

On 12/17/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
You may be able to make a logical argument based on the core function of
a
screen-reader assertion, but none of your other arguments are logical nor
validd. they are so weak that, whether this is true or not, they give
the
appearance of being motivated by dislike of the feature or by the belief
that it isn't a core function and your strong dislike of the argument
that
it is.

The essence of your other arguments is that the perfect should make no
room
for the imperfect or limited function. Since it can't protect against
all
privacy, then don't try to protect against any invasion of privacy. If
someone can read the screen in your environment, and you being completely
unaware because you can't see them do it, then let's not do anything to
stop
this because your material can be compromised in so many other ways.

Let's stop locking our houses since it's so easy for skilled criminals to
break in. Let's not close bathroom doors when staying at hotels. While
this might keep those in the room with us from looking at us when we are
naked, someone could put a camera in the bathroom and spy on us. That is
the nature of your arguments and such arguments aren't logical.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


As far as I know you can't just turn off the screen in the Windows
settings
and doing so may cause you real trouble if you can do it. If you
unexpectedly need sighted assistance, to deal with some sort of
maintenance
or performance problem, the screen should be on.

The screen shade has the advantage that the screen is still on and a
sighted
person can work with the machine if needed.
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: David Moore
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that many
people
will really need, and will help them do a job. Many features in some
screen
readers are just not needed. You do not need a feature to do searches for
you, when you can do a Google search. You don’t need this screen shade,
because you can just turn off your screen in the Windows settings.

I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.

It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for someone to be
employed. We need screen readers to help people work many jobs, that
should
be the first importance. Next, intertainment uses need to be accessible
with
a screen reader. If you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!

NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I am so
glad
it doesn’t.

It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to install
JAWS,
and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10



From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?



Hi



I agree with Joseph.



There might be things from other screen readers we might use or might not
use so I would rather the developers concentrate on screen reader
features
that help.



if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that way if
one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.



then down the track it could be added like you see with some addons that
code gets added to the core of nvda.







Gene nz





On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:

well fare enough, but I still think it should be in the core one day
in
nvda. if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I feel this is a
feature for us blind screen reader users that is needed and would be a
good
thing for nvda to have built in.

On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:



Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I
believe
that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on
screen reading, with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do
understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out
below, but I'm speaking from experience that just following the lead of
another screen reader just because NVDA should is something I'm
uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot
guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it,
including
sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on
my
laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in
nvda
and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say
other screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:



Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not
simply switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or
using the Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have
both
advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a
bit

like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:



Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears
to
be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader
users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really
guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output,
braille displays, remote access, etc.).
From what I can gather, this function does not result in
extended
battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an
overlay
window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes
this
overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you
may
think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is
that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a
more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs
should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and
personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because
another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf
Of

Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not
understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ...
whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use
Fn+f7

for switching between different display modes (signal send only
to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal
send

to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save
battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on
may

be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is
the

signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue
whether

windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this
is

a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to
be

exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely
different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
wrote:



From what I know about Windows and indeed most
screenreaders,
this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any
battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible
to
do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus
but

then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use
the

invisible window not the visible one.

In the issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?





Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and
JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!

































--


Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material
at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New
Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the
NVDA
screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or
location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
please
visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
individuals
from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA
expert
exam.







--
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762



Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Christo de Klerk
 

Thank you, what an excellent posting below from Bhavya shah! Well argued. I couldn't have put it better.

Kind regards

Christo

On 2017/12/18 6:01 AM, Bhavya shah wrote:
Hi all,
As a proponent of a screen shade like functionality in NVDA, let me
offer some points of proposition as well as some rebuttle in this
ongoing debate:
In this increasingly digitized, computerized and electronic era,
privacy, for absolutely any and all users, has become a key focus area
for software products. Extremely personal and confidential information
is stored and accessed on laptop and desktop computers at school,
workplace or other public settings. Would it be permissible for blind
and visually impaired computer users be left vulnerable to sighted
shouldersurfers – those with sight who peep literally over a blind
individual’s shoulders to surreptitiously follow his/her activities?
Side proposition is here to demonstrate to you how the proposed
feature is very much relevant for a screen reader and can prove vital
in significantly improving the privacy of a screen reader user. Before
introducing our substantives though, I would like to offer two points
of rebuttle on the basis of what we have already heard from side
opposition.
Legitimacy of the privacy argument- Shouldersurfing is a potential
risk manifold amplified in case of a blind person since he/she has no
way of detecting this. As a result, it is imperative that the computer
screen itself do something to resolve this huge loophole in a VI
user’s computer usage experience. Thus, since a screen reader’s
function and philosophy is to bridge the gap between the blind
consumer and the computer screen, and along the way, do whatever it
can to arm the consumer with the tools required to achieve equivalent
efficiency, privacy and usability as its sighted counterpart, side
proposition maintains that screen dimming is of substantial use in the
context of visually impaired computer users, and we view inclusion of
other methods of privacy invasions such as remote access Trojans,
speech synthesis (which, with experience, is often cranked up to a
rate unintelligible to the average human), etc., in the present debate
and discussion, as digressions on the part of side opposition for all
these techniques are dissimilar to shouldersurfing, the problem screen
dimming intends to fix, in that they are not exclusive to the blind
and thus do not warrant the intervention of a screen reader.
Inspiration for this feature request – Screen readers, and software in
general, often borrow and lend ideas and concepts for features and
functionalities. While basing a proposal to one screen reader
primarily on the premise that other screen readers showcase it is not
constructive, using it as a supporting argument, particularly by
citing its reception among its user base, is, we believe, valid and
justified. As iss the case with screen dimming, a multitude of other
usage scenarios, justifications and reasoning in favour of this
proposal have already been provided, and inspiration from other screen
readers plays the role of only a supporting argument.
On second thought, I suppose it might be more fruitful to allow side
opposition to respond to the above provided points of rebuttle before
I proceed towards side proposition’s substantives, which, more or
less, are already out there for review and simply require a cohesive
summarization.
Thanks.
P.S. Let us have a constructive point-by-point debate on this topic
spiritedly like we have had so far. :)

On 12/18/17, enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@...> wrote:
however joseph, This fact doesn't change the fact that 99% of sighted
people cannot breach the screen privacy features of screen readers.
Heck, I used to turn on keyboard help to prevent people from pressing
keys when I was away from my pc. A sighted person is extremely unlikely
to know how to re-enable the screen. Most users, unless they are
advanced users, are totally hopeless when they cannot see the screen.


On 12/18/2017 5:20 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

Rebuttal: privacy these days is something you don’t really “see”. Take
advanced malware, for example that can take a look at what you’re
doing without raising suspicion and no need to keep the monitor on.
That’s the point I’m getting at. Screen shade is just one piece;
others are user attitude, programs (both good and bad), and the target
or info one is looking at.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of
*David Moore
*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 5:52 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

I did not think about the fact that a sighted person can look over
their shoulder for prying eyes.

That is a great point! Good come back LOL!

I like good debates and discussions, because I just learned something
right there!

David Moore

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows 10

*From: *Kevin Chao <mailto:kevinchao89@...>
*Sent: *Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:40 PM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Screen shade is useful for protecting confidential work information,
which we may not know about prying eyes, and a sighted person can see
when someone is looking over their shoulders.

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:27 PM Gene <gsasner@...
<mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

As far as I know you can't just turn off the screen in the Windows
settings and doing so may cause you real trouble if you can do
it.  If you unexpectedly need sighted assistance, to deal with
some sort of maintenance or performance problem, the screen should
be on.

The screen shade has the advantage that the screen is still on and
a sighted person can work with the machine if needed.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

*From:*David Moore <mailto:jesusloves1966@...>

*Sent:*Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:02 PM

*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

*Subject:*Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that
many people will really need, and will help them do a job. Many
features in some screen readers are just not needed. You do not
need a feature to do searches for you, when you can do a Google
search. You don’t need this screen shade, because you can just
turn off your screen in the Windows settings.

I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.

It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for
someone to be employed. We need screen readers to help people work
many jobs, that should be the first importance. Next,
intertainment uses need to be accessible with a screen reader. If
you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!

NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I
am so glad it doesn’t.

It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to
install JAWS, and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.

David Moore

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
for Windows 10

*From: *Gene New Zealand <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>
*Sent: *Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi

I agree with Joseph.

There might be things from other screen readers we might use or
might not use so I would rather the developers concentrate on
screen reader features that help.

if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that
way if one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.

then down the track it could be added like you see with some
addons that code gets added to the core of nvda.

Gene nz

On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:

well fare enough,   but I still think it should be in the core
one day in nvda.   if you don't want to use it then fare
enough but I feel this is a feature for us blind screen reader
users that is needed and would be a good thing for nvda to
have built in.

On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the
community, I believe that NVDA's purpose is screen
reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on screen reading,
with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do
understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the
one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from experience
that just following the lead of another screen reader just
because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with.
Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot
guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of
breaching it, including sounds, speech, remote access,
data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick
via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little
program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't
work. I think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just
to say that you won't consider it if people say other
screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy.
But why not simply switching off the screen (power
button on an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or
similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have
both advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the
energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is
more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of
the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal
is send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain
shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is
used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader
users. Note the quotation marks around
"guarantee", as it does not really guarantee
privacy, as there are means to circumvent this
(speech output, braille displays, remote access,
etc.).
   From what I can gather, this function does not
result in extended battery life nor power savings.
When this function is turned on, an overlay window
is imposed on top of other windows, and turning
this off removes this overlay. As I said above,
this does not provide privacy as many of you may
think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my
overall opinion is that it should not. If people
want it, then I think an add-on would be a more
appropriate solution. Only after looking at
justifications and costs should developers
consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and
personally for me, a justification that goes along
the lines of, "because another screen reader has
this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly
about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the
monitor, I do not understand why it would not save
on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet,
smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power
sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between
laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes
(signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor
only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it
up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with
Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that,
although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to
which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I
have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it
provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on
some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to
windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality
is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about
something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io wrote:

From what I know about Windows and indeed most
screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going
to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought
it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never
actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you
want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a
desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@...
<mailto:briang1@...>, putting
'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
<mailto:kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature
for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an
add-on or natively?
Thanks!











--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness
related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless
of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK
sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their
computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to
you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
(Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified
expert near you, please visit the following link
https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page
contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from
around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA
expert exam.


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Christo de Klerk
 

Hello all

I agree with the post below. For me a screen curtain would be extremely useful when I, say, write a confidential letter or do online banking and don't want people to see what I am doing, people of whom I might not even be aware that they can see what I am doing. While it is true that some hackers could spy on my system, let us compare probabilities. There is a far higher probability that unwanted sighted people can see what I am doing and don't want them to see, than a hacker spying through hacking software. I believe that Joseph's arguments against a screen shade feature are somewhat far fetched and come across as rather artificial, just meant to shoot down a feature that several of us would find useful. I am sure all of us who would like to have this feature are well aware that it would not protect us against every conceivable other method of privacy infringement, but at least it would keep prying eyes away - which is probably the most common kind of privacy infringement.

Yes, I agree that such a feature would be better placed in an add-on than in the core of NVDA. If I had the necessary know-how, I would have created such an add-on.

I am not chasing after this feature because other screen readers have it; I am chasing after it, because I have a need of it.

Kind regards

Christo


On 2017/12/18 5:35 AM, Kevin Chao wrote:
Yes, Joseph, privacy is for local humans which is real and practical, not philosophical theory machine...
It is fine if you do not have this use case, but please respect those of us who need this feature in screen reader.
On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 6:43 PM Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

Hi,

That’s for humans. But if we factor in machines, it changes the game significantly. Even though if sighted folks cannot view what’s in front of them when this feature is on, folks using remote software can.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:34 PM


To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

however joseph, This fact doesn't change the fact that 99% of sighted people cannot breach the screen privacy features of screen readers. Heck, I used to turn on keyboard help to prevent people from pressing keys when I was away from my pc. A sighted person is extremely unlikely to know how to re-enable the screen. Most users, unless they are advanced users, are totally hopeless when they cannot see the screen.

 

On 12/18/2017 5:20 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Rebuttal: privacy these days is something you don’t really “see”. Take advanced malware, for example that can take a look at what you’re doing without raising suspicion and no need to keep the monitor on. That’s the point I’m getting at. Screen shade is just one piece; others are user attitude, programs (both good and bad), and the target or info one is looking at.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 5:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

I did not think about the fact that a sighted person can look over their shoulder for prying eyes.

That is a great point! Good come back LOL!

I like good debates and discussions, because I just learned something right there!

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kevin Chao
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

Screen shade is useful for protecting confidential work information, which we may not know about prying eyes, and a sighted person can see when someone is looking over their shoulders.

 

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:27 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

As far as I know you can't just turn off the screen in the Windows settings and doing so may cause you real trouble if you can do it.  If you unexpectedly need sighted assistance, to deal with some sort of maintenance or performance problem, the screen should be on. 

 

The screen shade has the advantage that the screen is still on and a sighted person can work with the machine if needed.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: David Moore

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:02 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that many people will really need, and will help them do a job. Many features in some screen readers are just not needed. You do not need a feature to do searches for you, when you can do a Google search. You don’t need this screen shade, because you can just turn off your screen in the Windows settings.

I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.

It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for someone to be employed. We need screen readers to help people work many jobs, that should be the first importance. Next, intertainment uses need to be accessible with a screen reader. If you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!

NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I am so glad it doesn’t.

It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to install JAWS, and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

Hi

 

I agree with Joseph.

 

There might be things from other screen readers we might use or might not use so I would rather the developers concentrate on screen reader features that help.

 

if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that way if one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.

 

then down the track it could be added like you see with some addons that code gets added to the core of nvda.

 

 

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:

well fare enough,   but I still think it should be in the core one day in nvda.   if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I feel this is a feature for us blind screen reader users that is needed and would be a good thing for nvda to have built in.

On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I believe that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on screen reading, with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from experience that just following the lead of another screen reader just because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it, including sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say other screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not simply switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have both advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote access, etc.).
   From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

   From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!

 














 

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 

 

 



Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Lenron
 

The reasons he is giving that this shouldn't be done seems to me to be
a dislike of the feature, or maybe because he is never in a situation
where this could be useful.

On 12/18/17, Tyler Wood <tcwood12@...> wrote:
Hi,
Thank you for this.
It doesn't matter who uses it and who doesn't - it's not like screen
shade is going to take up a ton of space in NVDA anyway. Regardless of
whether or not a screen reader has this built in (everything does at
this point, even android), the argument that security and privacy is
already bad enough implies that a) The people who would use screen
shade have bad security practices and b) That it's simply logical that
we don't provide an alternative way to protect said privacy because
there are other third party ways. Or, better yet as someone pointed
out, turn off our computers!

In this day and age where technology is at the forefront, would you
enjoy it if your boss ambled on into your office while you were
quickly, on your break, looking at your bank or paying a bill?
Checking your email? Yes, I'm aware this in itself is probably viewed
as security practice - but a sighted person could just click out of
the page before their boss even saw what was on the screen.

Does screen shade not have something to do with 'reading' in privacy?
I should also add here that most computers later than 2012 aren't
going to have the second screen only option work unless there is
physically a second monitor connected. Anything past sandy bridge and
Intel Atom z series processors the option won't stick. Running third
party software is hit or miss, and often times miss. If you yourself
wouldn't use it, it doesn't mean it wouldn't come in handy for others
and I'm really failing to see the problem here. The reasons given are
vague and, as Gean pointed out, lack so much logic. It's essentially -
don't bother, we're not going to do it and you might as well shut off
your computer because nobody is safe these days.

A small part of me is wondering if it's because another did it first?
If it isn't doable in NVDA I'd rather know now. That's fine. It would
make more sense than the reasons given at this point. Sorry.

On 12/17/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
You may be able to make a logical argument based on the core function of
a
screen-reader assertion, but none of your other arguments are logical nor
validd. they are so weak that, whether this is true or not, they give
the
appearance of being motivated by dislike of the feature or by the belief
that it isn't a core function and your strong dislike of the argument
that
it is.

The essence of your other arguments is that the perfect should make no
room
for the imperfect or limited function. Since it can't protect against
all
privacy, then don't try to protect against any invasion of privacy. If
someone can read the screen in your environment, and you being completely
unaware because you can't see them do it, then let's not do anything to
stop
this because your material can be compromised in so many other ways.

Let's stop locking our houses since it's so easy for skilled criminals to
break in. Let's not close bathroom doors when staying at hotels. While
this might keep those in the room with us from looking at us when we are
naked, someone could put a camera in the bathroom and spy on us. That is
the nature of your arguments and such arguments aren't logical.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


As far as I know you can't just turn off the screen in the Windows
settings
and doing so may cause you real trouble if you can do it. If you
unexpectedly need sighted assistance, to deal with some sort of
maintenance
or performance problem, the screen should be on.

The screen shade has the advantage that the screen is still on and a
sighted
person can work with the machine if needed.
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: David Moore
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that many
people
will really need, and will help them do a job. Many features in some
screen
readers are just not needed. You do not need a feature to do searches for
you, when you can do a Google search. You don’t need this screen shade,
because you can just turn off your screen in the Windows settings.

I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.

It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for someone to be
employed. We need screen readers to help people work many jobs, that
should
be the first importance. Next, intertainment uses need to be accessible
with
a screen reader. If you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!

NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I am so
glad
it doesn’t.

It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to install
JAWS,
and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10



From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?



Hi



I agree with Joseph.



There might be things from other screen readers we might use or might not
use so I would rather the developers concentrate on screen reader
features
that help.



if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that way if
one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.



then down the track it could be added like you see with some addons that
code gets added to the core of nvda.







Gene nz





On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:

well fare enough, but I still think it should be in the core one day
in
nvda. if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I feel this is a
feature for us blind screen reader users that is needed and would be a
good
thing for nvda to have built in.

On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:



Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I
believe
that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on
screen reading, with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do
understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out
below, but I'm speaking from experience that just following the lead of
another screen reader just because NVDA should is something I'm
uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot
guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it,
including
sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on
my
laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in
nvda
and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say
other screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:



Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not
simply switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or
using the Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have
both
advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a
bit

like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:



Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears
to
be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader
users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really
guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output,
braille displays, remote access, etc.).
From what I can gather, this function does not result in
extended
battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an
overlay
window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes
this
overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you
may
think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is
that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a
more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs
should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and
personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because
another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf
Of

Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not
understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ...
whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use
Fn+f7

for switching between different display modes (signal send only
to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal
send

to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save
battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on
may

be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is
the

signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue
whether

windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this
is

a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to
be

exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely
different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
wrote:



From what I know about Windows and indeed most
screenreaders,
this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any
battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible
to
do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus
but

then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use
the

invisible window not the visible one.

In the issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?





Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and
JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!

































--


Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material
at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New
Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the
NVDA
screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or
location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
please
visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
individuals
from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA
expert
exam.






--
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Tyler Wood
 

Hi,
Thank you for this.
It doesn't matter who uses it and who doesn't - it's not like screen
shade is going to take up a ton of space in NVDA anyway. Regardless of
whether or not a screen reader has this built in (everything does at
this point, even android), the argument that security and privacy is
already bad enough implies that a) The people who would use screen
shade have bad security practices and b) That it's simply logical that
we don't provide an alternative way to protect said privacy because
there are other third party ways. Or, better yet as someone pointed
out, turn off our computers!

In this day and age where technology is at the forefront, would you
enjoy it if your boss ambled on into your office while you were
quickly, on your break, looking at your bank or paying a bill?
Checking your email? Yes, I'm aware this in itself is probably viewed
as security practice - but a sighted person could just click out of
the page before their boss even saw what was on the screen.

Does screen shade not have something to do with 'reading' in privacy?
I should also add here that most computers later than 2012 aren't
going to have the second screen only option work unless there is
physically a second monitor connected. Anything past sandy bridge and
Intel Atom z series processors the option won't stick. Running third
party software is hit or miss, and often times miss. If you yourself
wouldn't use it, it doesn't mean it wouldn't come in handy for others
and I'm really failing to see the problem here. The reasons given are
vague and, as Gean pointed out, lack so much logic. It's essentially -
don't bother, we're not going to do it and you might as well shut off
your computer because nobody is safe these days.

A small part of me is wondering if it's because another did it first?
If it isn't doable in NVDA I'd rather know now. That's fine. It would
make more sense than the reasons given at this point. Sorry.

On 12/17/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
You may be able to make a logical argument based on the core function of a
screen-reader assertion, but none of your other arguments are logical nor
validd. they are so weak that, whether this is true or not, they give the
appearance of being motivated by dislike of the feature or by the belief
that it isn't a core function and your strong dislike of the argument that
it is.

The essence of your other arguments is that the perfect should make no room
for the imperfect or limited function. Since it can't protect against all
privacy, then don't try to protect against any invasion of privacy. If
someone can read the screen in your environment, and you being completely
unaware because you can't see them do it, then let's not do anything to stop
this because your material can be compromised in so many other ways.

Let's stop locking our houses since it's so easy for skilled criminals to
break in. Let's not close bathroom doors when staying at hotels. While
this might keep those in the room with us from looking at us when we are
naked, someone could put a camera in the bathroom and spy on us. That is
the nature of your arguments and such arguments aren't logical.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


As far as I know you can't just turn off the screen in the Windows settings
and doing so may cause you real trouble if you can do it. If you
unexpectedly need sighted assistance, to deal with some sort of maintenance
or performance problem, the screen should be on.

The screen shade has the advantage that the screen is still on and a sighted
person can work with the machine if needed.
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: David Moore
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that many people
will really need, and will help them do a job. Many features in some screen
readers are just not needed. You do not need a feature to do searches for
you, when you can do a Google search. You don’t need this screen shade,
because you can just turn off your screen in the Windows settings.

I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.

It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for someone to be
employed. We need screen readers to help people work many jobs, that should
be the first importance. Next, intertainment uses need to be accessible with
a screen reader. If you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!

NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I am so glad
it doesn’t.

It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to install JAWS,
and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10



From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?



Hi



I agree with Joseph.



There might be things from other screen readers we might use or might not
use so I would rather the developers concentrate on screen reader features
that help.



if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that way if
one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.



then down the track it could be added like you see with some addons that
code gets added to the core of nvda.







Gene nz





On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:

well fare enough, but I still think it should be in the core one day in
nvda. if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I feel this is a
feature for us blind screen reader users that is needed and would be a good
thing for nvda to have built in.

On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:



Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I believe
that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on
screen reading, with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do
understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out
below, but I'm speaking from experience that just following the lead of
another screen reader just because NVDA should is something I'm
uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot
guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it, including
sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on my
laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in nvda
and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say
other screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:



Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not
simply switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or
using the Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have both
advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a bit

like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:



Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to
be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader
users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really
guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output,
braille displays, remote access, etc.).
From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended
battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay
window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this
overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may
think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is
that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a
more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs
should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and
personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because
another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of

Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not
understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ...
whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7

for switching between different display modes (signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send

to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save
battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may

be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the

signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether

windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is

a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be

exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely
different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:



From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders,
this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any
battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to
do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus but

then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use the

invisible window not the visible one.

In the issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?





Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and
JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!

































--


Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material
at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New
Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA
screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or
location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please
visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals
from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert
exam.