Date   

Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Kevin Cussick
 

You can't turn off your screen in windows10 home using the laptop or all in ones don't know where you got that one from.

On 18/12/2017 01:02, David Moore wrote:
I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that many people will really need, and will help them do a job. Many features in some screen readers are just not needed. You do not need a feature to do searches for you, when you can do a Google search. You don’t need this screen shade, because you can just turn off your screen in the Windows settings.
I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.
It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for someone to be employed. We need screen readers to help people work many jobs, that should be the first importance. Next, intertainment uses need to be accessible with a screen reader. If you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!
NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I am so glad it doesn’t.
It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to install JAWS, and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.
David Moore
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
*From: *Gene New Zealand <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>
*Sent: *Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
Hi
I agree with Joseph.
There might be things from other screen readers we might use or might not use so I would rather the developers concentrate on screen reader features that help.
if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that way if one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.
then down the track it could be added like you see with some addons that code gets added to the core of nvda.
Gene nz
On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:
well fare enough,   but I still think it should be in the core one
day in nvda.   if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I
feel this is a feature for us blind screen reader users that is
needed and would be a good thing for nvda to have built in.
On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I
believe that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core
should focus on screen reading, with add-ons coming in with
optional features. I do understand that I can be heavy-handed at
times like the one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from
experience that just following the lead of another screen reader
just because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with.
Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot guarantee 100
percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it, including
sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick via
Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little
program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I
think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just to say that
you won't consider it if people say other screen readers have it
is very heavy handed.
On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
Hi Joseeph,
Thanks for the clarification.
Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But
why not simply switching off the screen (power button on an
external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key
combination) on a laptop? Then you have both advantages, the
pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.
I agree with the rest.
If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is
send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)
Kind Regards,
Didier
On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows
what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to
"guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the
quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not
really guarantee privacy, as there are means to
circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote
access, etc.).
   From what I can gather, this function does not
result in extended battery life nor power savings. When
this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed
on top of other windows, and turning this off removes
this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide
privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall
opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I
think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution.
Only after looking at justifications and costs should
developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my
opinion, and personally for me, a justification that
goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader
has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
Hi all,
I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.
When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I
do not understand why it would not save on battery....
The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet,
smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks
in such systems.
On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between
laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal
send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or
signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When
I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to
save battery.
Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although
such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which
monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no
clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides
an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some
laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).
Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is
supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something
completely different.
Kind regards,
Didier
On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io wrote:
   From what I know about Windows and indeed most
screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to
save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it
was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually
loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want
it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.
In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is
called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.
Brian
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...> <mailto:kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
Hi,
VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a
long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.
Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on
or natively?
Thanks!
--
Image NVDA certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: competition

Kevin Cussick
 

but for the screen black out I suspect you might need an installed copy of nvda but can't say for sure so addons might not really be the way to go. but as I say this if you did need an installed copy then I suppose it wouldn't really matter as a portable version with the feature built in wouldn't work. this is if I am correct I do not know this.

On 18/12/2017 00:16, Don H wrote:
I am one that hopes that NVDA doesn't try to compete with any other screen reader but continue to make improvements that makes the most sense relative to giving blind people as much access to computers as possible.  Addons is a perfect way to introduce useful tools in a efficient way.
On 12/17/2017 6:07 PM, Gene wrote:
NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources. However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.
Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run.
If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Don H <mailto:lmddh50@...>
*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.




Re: competition

Kevin Cussick
 

good points and I agree with most if not all of them, thanks for posting.

On 18/12/2017 00:07, Gene wrote:
NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources. However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.
Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run.
If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Don H <mailto:lmddh50@...>
*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* [nvda] competition
When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


Re: screen shade

Sarah k Alawami
 

I actually have written very sensivite thigns the public can see at my school. I'm no longer paranoid as someone can look over my shoulder. I don't even use the screen curtain on my mac anymore as there could still be ways of delving into what you just typed. I like the idea, but I'd say this is a rank 5 suggestion, very low priority in my humble opinion.

Take care

On Dec 18, 2017, at 5:35 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:

Oh ye trusting fellow... :-)
I think many people just like they talk loudly to phones in the street telling everyone of their private goings on often miss the obvious and yes they do use their laptops for  sensitive stuff in public.

Still, as I said in a different thread today, one can only go so far for security, the weak link is always us users.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message ----- From: <ely.r@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] screen shade


Good idea!

I have to wonder what people are writing on their computers in what I assume is a public area that they do not want others to see. If someone has full vision, one would assume that they have their screen turned on so they can both read and write. If so, then it is likely that they will not be writing highly sensitive things that others might see as they walk by. Sorry if this seems insensitive, but. . .

Rick



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Josh Kennedy
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 7:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] screen shade



Instead of screen shade. Get a black piece of paper and put it over your screen. And voila, nobody can see your screen at all.





Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10









Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Kevin Cussick
 

I would like to see it but I am no programmer and don't have a clew how hard it would be to implement but if it could be done I think it would be a nice feature.

On 17/12/2017 22:59, Dennis L wrote:
I agree it should be implamented. If you want you can use it if you don’t know one is forcing you to do so.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 5:47 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
well fare enough, but I still think it should be in the core one day
in nvda. if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I feel this
is a feature for us blind screen reader users that is needed and would be a good thing for nvda to have built in.
On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I believe that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on screen reading, with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from experience that just following the lead of another screen reader just because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it, including sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say other screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not simply switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have both advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a
bit like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote access, etc.).
From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders,
this function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to
do it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus
but then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use
the invisible window not the visible one.

In the issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!















Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi Adriani


I am going to try out the first option under the power management part of windows. It was easier enough to do but will get the wife to look to make sure it is off and does not come back on with the mouse.

I know under the power management part i can set the monitor to turn off after say a minute but as soon as you move the mouse it wakes up.
I think there is another settings where you can specify it to wake it but would have to look around.


so will have to see what this one does and also how to turn it back on.

At present I just hit the power button on the monitor no biggy.
I wonder if you hit it again does it turn it back on?


I did look on my android phone under talk back and it has a screen dim feature so does this mean it only dims the screen say to a very low level? and is that the same for the jaws feature or does it turn off the display fully? if it works.

Gene nz

On 12/19/2017 7:54 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
Hey,

I must admit that I don't agree with you statement. Audio ducking and speech review, braille display features and so on are being made to to be able to read the screen in a proper way. This means that you get the information which is being displayed on a screen. We cannot let a screen reader to be a privacy tool. In this case, a screen reader could also clean up your registry and delete viruses and what not.

By the way, how about this?

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/3-quickest-ways-turn-computer-screen-windows/

The tools are very reliable.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Bhavya shah
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 17:40
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,
Both sides of the house have put up several fresh and compelling points which have been better explicated and backed than our previously undirected discourse. In order to continue this stimulation of conversation until a greater level of consensus and union of opinions is achieved, I would like to take this opportunity to counter a few of the arguments we have witnessed various members of side opposition delivering. Just like my previous input, allow me to offer two more points of rebuttle in order to demonstrate why proposition’s case still completely stands and how opposition’s case is falling:
Purpose of a screen reader – A major area of clash in this debate has been whether or not a feature such as screen dimming falls within the scope of a screen reader. To illustrate why side proposition firmly believes that it does, let us assess the history of mobile phones – originally designed to make phone calling and later text messaging more portable and ubiquitous, but today known for the quality of their cameras, ability to perform resource-intensive tasks, support for high-end gaming and what not. All modern phones conform to the basis standard of having calling and messaging options, but it is precisely the icings on the cake that distinguish one from the other. Let me show you how this analogy is absolutely applicable in the context of screen reading software too. While the strictest definition of a screen reader may simply be to read on-screen contents efficiently (as an opposition speaker has repeatedly asserted), popular screen readers, including NVDA, flaunt features such as audio ducking, mouse tracking, speech viewer, just to name a few, which, according to most interpretations, would probably not adhere to the restrictive and narrow definition provided by side opposition of the goals and contents of a screen reader. However, has that prevented any of these from being widely acclaimed, later borrowed, and frequently used elements of NVDA? In the modern world that we live in, a program or a product is not evaluated on its ability to merely perform its basic functions, but adjudicated on the basis of what else it can do to assist its target audience as a whole, i.e. the cheese may be taken for granted, for the toppings determine and contribute to the overall quality of a software product, particularly as we discuss screen dimming functionality for a screen reader.
Screen dimming alternative options – Members of side proposition have, on numerous occasions and by a host of statements, been advised to seek screen dimming functionality elsewhere, to the point where it has been declared that there are other reliable and universally functional methods of darkening the display. From what I have gathered, the few specific suggestions made are all inadequate in some or the other way; Projector Only or Second Screen Only in the Projector Settings dialog does not work with certain processors and graphic cards, particularly on Windows 10 (due to which I had to downgrade back to Windows 8.1), turning down the brightness in Windows to 0 only grays out the screen so much, still leaving a significant amount of visibility for shouldersurfers, and a few third party tools mentioned require that the computer be actually put on Sleep mode. All in all, no functional option for screen dimming has been presented so far. Having said that, even if such a third party tool is discovered, all our other arguments about including this feature in NVDA core shall remain pertinent and we will continue to advocate for having such capabilities integrated into the NVDA screen reader.
Thanks.

On 12/18/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:
The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well. 
Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down 
systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
 In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link.
You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access 
for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or 
security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that 
we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities 
and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not 
careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone 
in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and 
hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen.


Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop 
paranoia  which is sadly rife in places of work these days.
 It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in 
security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us.


I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well,  in that many 
many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces, 
its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders 
as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most 
certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones 
that go dark when you plug in a set of phones.

 However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and 
grab your cash!

Brian

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Note to all this threads length is getting longer than the list allows 
text

quoting wise, so trimmed some off.







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E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@... Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91 7506221750








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Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: season greetings

David Moore
 

Hi all!

I wish all of you a very merry Christmas as well. May we reflect back over this year, and ask ourselves how we can improve next year. May all of you have a joyful Christmas. My wife and I will be alone. May all of you, who are alone, think about what Christmas is about, and get on lists or social media. I will be here some LOL! Merry Christmas, all!

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: anthony borg
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 8:32 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] season greetings

 

Wishing all list members a very merry Christmas and all the best for 2018.

Best regards

Anthony

 


Re: competition

Gene
 

Maybe, maybe not.  Some of the most requested items haven't been added to NVDA for years.  Maybe they will be some day but the developers have showed no signs of being intimidated by majority views.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

The thing is, as more users would comment on an addon and would create new issues on github to tell developers what they should improve, as more probable it will be that those functions will be taken into the core of NVDA. It depends on how many people are going to benefit from that function. So, the advantage of having addons is that there is a very good opportunity for users to give feedback and it gives flexibility for developers to implement that feedback faster.

 

If you would have a screen reader which has every function implemented, you would have to wait until next release to see improvements.

 

In my view, jaws has lots of functions which have not been improved since years. But it implements lots of new features and lets the old ones unchanged. As of now, jaws does not work with firefox nor with edge as good as NVDA does. Instead of bringing such features which will be used by a small part of users FS could concentrate on how to improve user experience for example through more intuitive keystrokes, simpler menue structure, better productivity features and so on. My perception is that FS is implementing every thing they have in one product (zoomtext, open book and jaws). So, Jaws is not only a screen reader but also a multi purpose application. If you are asking jme, this is a clear measure to reach more users and to increase the range of relevant customers..

 

And finally, it is the wrong way to make a market out of a screen reader. A screen reader has a very big social impact on people who have the same right to get access to information as sighted people. In my view a screen reader should be a social movement and not a product which investors hope to gain capital from.

 

So, the best way would be the screen readers to come together and build a powerful software, together with mainstream software developers. There are a lot of possibilities to get donations and sponsors for such a project and lots of jobs could be created without having to let the users pay so much money for a software. There is no plausible reason why a company would be forced to gain capital from such a product.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von erik burggraaf
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 20:50
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] competition

 

It sounds as though people have a misunderstanding of how windows screen readers work.  The other guy relies very heavily on it's own add-ons, called scripts.  The difference is that the other guy comes with many more customizations pre-installed.  Of course, you pay for them all, whether you use them or not.  Thanks to all the jaws-wielding seniors who paid for visual studio and microsoft sharepoint support.  Enjoy. 

Add-ons, scripts, apps, extentions, and let's face it, windows screen readers in premis are old paradigm.  The fact that we're still forced to use them, whether by manual instalation or base configuration, is against good modern design.  The real answer of course is for software designers to comply with accessibility standards and conduct proper quality control  Until that happens, hard coding screen readers through proprietary measures are the only recourse.

The add-on store isn't a bad idea.  Base-installing more add-ons might also be convenient, although that has it's own set of problems.  Meanwhile, we have to be advocating modern new paradigm design against the looming day when third party screen readers are a thing of the past.

Best,

Erik

On December 18, 2017 12:40:12 PM "Mike and Jenna" <schwaltze@...> wrote:

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

 

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.



 




--
Gera
Enviado desde
Thunderbird


Re: competition

Adriani Botez
 

The thing is, as more users would comment on an addon and would create new issues on github to tell developers what they should improve, as more probable it will be that those functions will be taken into the core of NVDA. It depends on how many people are going to benefit from that function. So, the advantage of having addons is that there is a very good opportunity for users to give feedback and it gives flexibility for developers to implement that feedback faster.

 

If you would have a screen reader which has every function implemented, you would have to wait until next release to see improvements.

 

In my view, jaws has lots of functions which have not been improved since years. But it implements lots of new features and lets the old ones unchanged. As of now, jaws does not work with firefox nor with edge as good as NVDA does. Instead of bringing such features which will be used by a small part of users FS could concentrate on how to improve user experience for example through more intuitive keystrokes, simpler menue structure, better productivity features and so on. My perception is that FS is implementing every thing they have in one product (zoomtext, open book and jaws). So, Jaws is not only a screen reader but also a multi purpose application. If you are asking jme, this is a clear measure to reach more users and to increase the range of relevant customers..

 

And finally, it is the wrong way to make a market out of a screen reader. A screen reader has a very big social impact on people who have the same right to get access to information as sighted people. In my view a screen reader should be a social movement and not a product which investors hope to gain capital from.

 

So, the best way would be the screen readers to come together and build a powerful software, together with mainstream software developers. There are a lot of possibilities to get donations and sponsors for such a project and lots of jobs could be created without having to let the users pay so much money for a software. There is no plausible reason why a company would be forced to gain capital from such a product.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von erik burggraaf
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 20:50
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] competition

 

It sounds as though people have a misunderstanding of how windows screen readers work.  The other guy relies very heavily on it's own add-ons, called scripts.  The difference is that the other guy comes with many more customizations pre-installed.  Of course, you pay for them all, whether you use them or not.  Thanks to all the jaws-wielding seniors who paid for visual studio and microsoft sharepoint support.  Enjoy. 

Add-ons, scripts, apps, extentions, and let's face it, windows screen readers in premis are old paradigm.  The fact that we're still forced to use them, whether by manual instalation or base configuration, is against good modern design.  The real answer of course is for software designers to comply with accessibility standards and conduct proper quality control  Until that happens, hard coding screen readers through proprietary measures are the only recourse.

The add-on store isn't a bad idea.  Base-installing more add-ons might also be convenient, although that has it's own set of problems.  Meanwhile, we have to be advocating modern new paradigm design against the looming day when third party screen readers are a thing of the past.

Best,

Erik

On December 18, 2017 12:40:12 PM "Mike and Jenna" <schwaltze@...> wrote:

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

 

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.



 




--
Gera
Enviado desde
Thunderbird


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

 

Well we have dictation bridge and other things.

Dictation is a nice gimic for the blind.

Here is the thing, if you are unabled through disability or simply don't care to type or want to record something and translate it back to text later then it may be fine.

Especially for those with rsi like my brother that helps a lot.

Its not much good for an office but without it he wouldn't be able to function at all on a computer.

As it is he still uses the keyboard a lot and is on a lot of drugs even to type so it has its merrits.

Not every solution fits all this is not a 1 size world here nothing is.

On 19/12/2017 8:31 a.m., Adriani Botez wrote:
Well, then let’s take the dictation argument. Lots of people would use it and though it is not part of a screen reader because it is not meant to improve reading what is being displayed on a screen.



Best

Adriani


Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Gene
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 20:11
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


You are using a variation of the slippery slope argument. If one thing is done, that will lead to catastrophe because everything will then be done. This fallacious slippery slope kind of argument is seldom correct because it assumes that people have no judgment and no appreciation of context. Slippery slope is listed as a logical fallacy, and with good reason.


Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@...>

Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 12:54 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hey,

I must admit that I don't agree with you statement. Audio ducking and speech review, braille display features and so on are being made to to be able to read the screen in a proper way. This means that you get the information which is being displayed on a screen. We cannot let a screen reader to be a privacy tool. In this case, a screen reader could also clean up your registry and delete viruses and what not.

By the way, how about this?

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/3-quickest-ways-turn-computer-screen-windows/

The tools are very reliable.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Bhavya shah
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 17:40
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,
Both sides of the house have put up several fresh and compelling points which have been better explicated and backed than our previously undirected discourse. In order to continue this stimulation of conversation until a greater level of consensus and union of opinions is achieved, I would like to take this opportunity to counter a few of the arguments we have witnessed various members of side opposition delivering. Just like my previous input, allow me to offer two more points of rebuttle in order to demonstrate why proposition’s case still completely stands and how opposition’s case is falling:
Purpose of a screen reader – A major area of clash in this debate has been whether or not a feature such as screen dimming falls within the scope of a screen reader. To illustrate why side proposition firmly believes that it does, let us assess the history of mobile phones – originally designed to make phone calling and later text messaging more portable and ubiquitous, but today known for the quality of their cameras, ability to perform resource-intensive tasks, support for high-end gaming and what not. All modern phones conform to the basis standard of having calling and messaging options, but it is precisely the icings on the cake that distinguish one from the other. Let me show you how this analogy is absolutely applicable in the context of screen reading software too. While the strictest definition of a screen reader may simply be to read on-screen contents efficiently (as an opposition speaker has repeatedly asserted), popular screen readers, including NVDA, flaunt features such as audio ducking, mouse tracking, speech viewer, just to name a few, which, according to most interpretations, would probably not adhere to the restrictive and narrow definition provided by side opposition of the goals and contents of a screen reader. However, has that prevented any of these from being widely acclaimed, later borrowed, and frequently used elements of NVDA? In the modern world that we live in, a program or a product is not evaluated on its ability to merely perform its basic functions, but adjudicated on the basis of what else it can do to assist its target audience as a whole, i.e. the cheese may be taken for granted, for the toppings determine and contribute to the overall quality of a software product, particularly as we discuss screen dimming functionality for a screen reader.
Screen dimming alternative options – Members of side proposition have, on numerous occasions and by a host of statements, been advised to seek screen dimming functionality elsewhere, to the point where it has been declared that there are other reliable and universally functional methods of darkening the display. From what I have gathered, the few specific suggestions made are all inadequate in some or the other way; Projector Only or Second Screen Only in the Projector Settings dialog does not work with certain processors and graphic cards, particularly on Windows 10 (due to which I had to downgrade back to Windows 8.1), turning down the brightness in Windows to 0 only grays out the screen so much, still leaving a significant amount of visibility for shouldersurfers, and a few third party tools mentioned require that the computer be actually put on Sleep mode. All in all, no functional option for screen dimming has been presented so far. Having said that, even if such a third party tool is discovered, all our other arguments about including this feature in NVDA core shall remain pertinent and we will continue to advocate for having such capabilities integrated into the NVDA screen reader.
Thanks.

On 12/18/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io <mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> > wrote:
The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well.
Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down
systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link.
You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access
for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or
security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that
we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities
and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not
careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone
in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and
hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen.


Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop
paranoia which is sadly rife in places of work these days.
It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in
security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us.


I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well, in that many
many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces,
its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders
as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most
certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones
that go dark when you plug in a set of phones.

However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and
grab your cash!

Brian

bglists@... <mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@... <mailto:briang1@...> ,

Note to all this threads length is getting longer than the list allows
text

quoting wise, so trimmed some off.





--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@... <mailto:bhavya.shah125@...> Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 <http://www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125> Mobile Number: +91 7506221750











Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Gene
 

Aren't you arguing that once you start adding features more and more may be added that have nothing to do with the purpose of a screen-reader?  If that's not your argument, I may retract my last message.  Clearly, a screen-reader should accommodate those who can't type using a keyboard.  the whole point of a screen-reader is to be used by blind people and that doesn't just include blind only people.  My point is that you can add a feature and that doesn't mean that you'll indiscriminately add feature after feature.  Whether you want this particular feature or not, it's the slippery slope argument I'm arguing against.
 
I think that, as a general guiding principle the argument that a screen-reader should be primarily designed to provide access to content on screen is a good guide.  But it, as any other guiding principle anywhere, if taken too rigidly, without regard to context and justification to not always adhere to it, becomes ideology and stifles rational development. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Well, then let’s take the dictation argument. Lots of people would use it and though it is not part of a screen reader because it is not meant to improve reading what is being displayed on a screen.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Gene
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 20:11
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

You are using a variation of the slippery slope argument.  If one thing is done, that will lead to catastrophe because everything will then be done.  This fallacious slippery slope kind of argument is seldom correct because it assumes that people have no judgment and no appreciation of context.  Slippery slope is listed as a logical fallacy, and with good reason. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 12:54 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

Hey,

I must admit that I don't agree with you statement. Audio ducking and speech review, braille display features and so on are being made to to be able to read the screen in a proper way. This means that you get the information which is being displayed on a screen. We cannot let a screen reader to be a privacy tool. In this case, a screen reader could also clean up your registry and delete viruses and what not.

By the way, how about this?

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/3-quickest-ways-turn-computer-screen-windows/

The tools are very reliable.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Bhavya shah
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 17:40
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,
Both sides of the house have put up several fresh and compelling points which have been better explicated and backed than our previously undirected discourse. In order to continue this stimulation of conversation until a greater level of consensus and union of opinions is achieved, I would like to take this opportunity to counter a few of the arguments we have witnessed various members of side opposition delivering. Just like my previous input, allow me to offer two more points of rebuttle in order to demonstrate why proposition’s case still completely stands and how opposition’s case is falling:
Purpose of a screen reader – A major area of clash in this debate has been whether or not a feature such as screen dimming falls within the scope of a screen reader. To illustrate why side proposition firmly believes that it does, let us assess the history of mobile phones – originally designed to make phone calling and later text messaging more portable and ubiquitous, but today known for the quality of their cameras, ability to perform resource-intensive tasks, support for high-end gaming and what not. All modern phones conform to the basis standard of having calling and messaging options, but it is precisely the icings on the cake that distinguish one from the other. Let me show you how this analogy is absolutely applicable in the context of screen reading software too. While the strictest definition of a screen reader may simply be to read on-screen contents efficiently (as an opposition speaker has repeatedly asserted), popular screen readers, including NVDA, flaunt features such as audio ducking, mouse tracking, speech viewer, just to name a few, which, according to most interpretations, would probably not adhere to the restrictive and narrow definition provided by side opposition of the goals and contents of a screen reader. However, has that prevented any of these from being widely acclaimed, later borrowed, and frequently used elements of NVDA? In the modern world that we live in, a program or a product is not evaluated on its ability to merely perform its basic functions, but adjudicated on the basis of what else it can do to assist its target audience as a whole, i.e. the cheese may be taken for granted, for the toppings determine and contribute to the overall quality of a software product, particularly as we discuss screen dimming functionality for a screen reader.
Screen dimming alternative options – Members of side proposition have, on numerous occasions and by a host of statements, been advised to seek screen dimming functionality elsewhere, to the point where it has been declared that there are other reliable and universally functional methods of darkening the display. From what I have gathered, the few specific suggestions made are all inadequate in some or the other way; Projector Only or Second Screen Only in the Projector Settings dialog does not work with certain processors and graphic cards, particularly on Windows 10 (due to which I had to downgrade back to Windows 8.1), turning down the brightness in Windows to 0 only grays out the screen so much, still leaving a significant amount of visibility for shouldersurfers, and a few third party tools mentioned require that the computer be actually put on Sleep mode. All in all, no functional option for screen dimming has been presented so far. Having said that, even if such a third party tool is discovered, all our other arguments about including this feature in NVDA core shall remain pertinent and we will continue to advocate for having such capabilities integrated into the NVDA screen reader.
Thanks.

On 12/18/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:
> The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well.
> Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down
> systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
>  In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link.
> You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access
> for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or
> security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that
> we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities
> and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not
> careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone
> in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and
> hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen.
>
>
> Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop
> paranoia  which is sadly rife in places of work these days.
>  It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in
> security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us.
>
>
> I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well,  in that many
> many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces,
> its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders
> as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most
> certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones
> that go dark when you plug in a set of phones.
>
>  However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and
> grab your cash!
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@...,
>
> Note to all this threads length is getting longer than the list allows
> text
>
> quoting wise, so trimmed some off.
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@... Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91 7506221750







Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

 

Well thats one thing we can agree on at least.

Everything is a really broad word.

Maybe everything at the current time, but not at all time.

Example.

When I started, I had braille, then a type writer then my first computer in 1993.

And for me everything such that it was was fine till I dropped it in 1996.

That system got updated with the latest dos software and such, and I also had my first windows computer.

In 2001 the dos box broke and it was really beyond what I could use it for anyway.

so was my windows system.

In 2003 I got another box which lasted till 2005 when it broke.

In 2005 I got another system which lasted till it broke, in 2009 I got another which lasted till it broke.

In 2011, I got my current system which has lasted and does everything I want to, but its probably time to move on sooner or later.

The point is everything doesn't mean it will be always there, its like the word nothing.

Ie there is nothing there but empty space, but the fact air exists or space means something does actually exist to someone's thinking.

Believe me each time I upgraded from dos to win95 then 98, They did everything I wanted than xp once I hit sp2-3 it did everything.

Now 7 does everything.

Then 10 will, and rumors are that win11 is coming out in 2 years.

Point is nothing lasts, and I won't say for ever because that is again to broad.

For ever in fact for a human is probably as short as 30-50 years or as is long as 100 years which is how long each of us has to live.

As for the future, for us right now that doesn't matter and neither will it matter for anyone else.

It will matter for that current time but not much more than that.

It is interesting how we humans trick ourselve into using broad words  for just about everything when if you really cut it down isn't really.

On 19/12/2017 8:10 a.m., Gene wrote:
You are using a variation of the slippery slope argument. If one thing is done, that will lead to catastrophe because everything will then be done. This fallacious slippery slope kind of argument is seldom correct because it assumes that people have no judgment and no appreciation of context. Slippery slope is listed as a logical fallacy, and with good reason.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Adriani Botez
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 12:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hey,

I must admit that I don't agree with you statement. Audio ducking and speech review, braille display features and so on are being made to to be able to read the screen in a proper way. This means that you get the information which is being displayed on a screen. We cannot let a screen reader to be a privacy tool. In this case, a screen reader could also clean up your registry and delete viruses and what not.

By the way, how about this?

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/3-quickest-ways-turn-computer-screen-windows/

The tools are very reliable.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Bhavya shah
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 17:40
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,
Both sides of the house have put up several fresh and compelling points which have been better explicated and backed than our previously undirected discourse. In order to continue this stimulation of conversation until a greater level of consensus and union of opinions is achieved, I would like to take this opportunity to counter a few of the arguments we have witnessed various members of side opposition delivering. Just like my previous input, allow me to offer two more points of rebuttle in order to demonstrate why proposition’s case still completely stands and how opposition’s case is falling:
Purpose of a screen reader – A major area of clash in this debate has been whether or not a feature such as screen dimming falls within the scope of a screen reader. To illustrate why side proposition firmly believes that it does, let us assess the history of mobile phones – originally designed to make phone calling and later text messaging more portable and ubiquitous, but today known for the quality of their cameras, ability to perform resource-intensive tasks, support for high-end gaming and what not. All modern phones conform to the basis standard of having calling and messaging options, but it is precisely the icings on the cake that distinguish one from the other. Let me show you how this analogy is absolutely applicable in the context of screen reading software too. While the strictest definition of a screen reader may simply be to read on-screen contents efficiently (as an opposition speaker has repeatedly asserted), popular screen readers, including NVDA, flaunt features such as audio ducking, mouse tracking, speech viewer, just to name a few, which, according to most interpretations, would probably not adhere to the restrictive and narrow definition provided by side opposition of the goals and contents of a screen reader. However, has that prevented any of these from being widely acclaimed, later borrowed, and frequently used elements of NVDA? In the modern world that we live in, a program or a product is not evaluated on its ability to merely perform its basic functions, but adjudicated on the basis of what else it can do to assist its target audience as a whole, i.e. the cheese may be taken for granted, for the toppings determine and contribute to the overall quality of a software product, particularly as we discuss screen dimming functionality for a screen reader.
Screen dimming alternative options – Members of side proposition have, on numerous occasions and by a host of statements, been advised to seek screen dimming functionality elsewhere, to the point where it has been declared that there are other reliable and universally functional methods of darkening the display. From what I have gathered, the few specific suggestions made are all inadequate in some or the other way; Projector Only or Second Screen Only in the Projector Settings dialog does not work with certain processors and graphic cards, particularly on Windows 10 (due to which I had to downgrade back to Windows 8.1), turning down the brightness in Windows to 0 only grays out the screen so much, still leaving a significant amount of visibility for shouldersurfers, and a few third party tools mentioned require that the computer be actually put on Sleep mode. All in all, no functional option for screen dimming has been presented so far. Having said that, even if such a third party tool is discovered, all our other arguments about including this feature in NVDA core shall remain pertinent and we will continue to advocate for having such capabilities integrated into the NVDA screen reader.
Thanks.

On 12/18/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well.
Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down
systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link.
You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access
for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or
security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that
we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities
and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not
careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone
in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and
hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen.


Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop
paranoia which is sadly rife in places of work these days.
It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in
security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us.


I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well, in that many
many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces,
its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders
as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most
certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones
that go dark when you plug in a set of phones.

However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and
grab your cash!

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@...,

Note to all this threads length is getting longer than the list allows
text

quoting wise, so trimmed some off.





--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@... Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91 7506221750








Re: competition

erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

It sounds as though people have a misunderstanding of how windows screen readers work.  The other guy relies very heavily on it's own add-ons, called scripts.  The difference is that the other guy comes with many more customizations pre-installed.  Of course, you pay for them all, whether you use them or not.  Thanks to all the jaws-wielding seniors who paid for visual studio and microsoft sharepoint support.  Enjoy. 

Add-ons, scripts, apps, extentions, and let's face it, windows screen readers in premis are old paradigm.  The fact that we're still forced to use them, whether by manual instalation or base configuration, is against good modern design.  The real answer of course is for software designers to comply with accessibility standards and conduct proper quality control  Until that happens, hard coding screen readers through proprietary measures are the only recourse.

The add-on store isn't a bad idea.  Base-installing more add-ons might also be convenient, although that has it's own set of problems.  Meanwhile, we have to be advocating modern new paradigm design against the looming day when third party screen readers are a thing of the past.

Best,

Erik

On December 18, 2017 12:40:12 PM "Mike and Jenna" <schwaltze@...> wrote:

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

 

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


 



--
Gera
Enviado desde
Thunderbird


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Adriani Botez
 

Well, then let’s take the dictation argument. Lots of people would use it and though it is not part of a screen reader because it is not meant to improve reading what is being displayed on a screen.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Gene
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 20:11
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

You are using a variation of the slippery slope argument.  If one thing is done, that will lead to catastrophe because everything will then be done.  This fallacious slippery slope kind of argument is seldom correct because it assumes that people have no judgment and no appreciation of context.  Slippery slope is listed as a logical fallacy, and with good reason. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 12:54 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

Hey,

I must admit that I don't agree with you statement. Audio ducking and speech review, braille display features and so on are being made to to be able to read the screen in a proper way. This means that you get the information which is being displayed on a screen. We cannot let a screen reader to be a privacy tool. In this case, a screen reader could also clean up your registry and delete viruses and what not.

By the way, how about this?

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/3-quickest-ways-turn-computer-screen-windows/

The tools are very reliable.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Bhavya shah
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 17:40
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,
Both sides of the house have put up several fresh and compelling points which have been better explicated and backed than our previously undirected discourse. In order to continue this stimulation of conversation until a greater level of consensus and union of opinions is achieved, I would like to take this opportunity to counter a few of the arguments we have witnessed various members of side opposition delivering. Just like my previous input, allow me to offer two more points of rebuttle in order to demonstrate why proposition’s case still completely stands and how opposition’s case is falling:
Purpose of a screen reader – A major area of clash in this debate has been whether or not a feature such as screen dimming falls within the scope of a screen reader. To illustrate why side proposition firmly believes that it does, let us assess the history of mobile phones – originally designed to make phone calling and later text messaging more portable and ubiquitous, but today known for the quality of their cameras, ability to perform resource-intensive tasks, support for high-end gaming and what not. All modern phones conform to the basis standard of having calling and messaging options, but it is precisely the icings on the cake that distinguish one from the other. Let me show you how this analogy is absolutely applicable in the context of screen reading software too. While the strictest definition of a screen reader may simply be to read on-screen contents efficiently (as an opposition speaker has repeatedly asserted), popular screen readers, including NVDA, flaunt features such as audio ducking, mouse tracking, speech viewer, just to name a few, which, according to most interpretations, would probably not adhere to the restrictive and narrow definition provided by side opposition of the goals and contents of a screen reader. However, has that prevented any of these from being widely acclaimed, later borrowed, and frequently used elements of NVDA? In the modern world that we live in, a program or a product is not evaluated on its ability to merely perform its basic functions, but adjudicated on the basis of what else it can do to assist its target audience as a whole, i.e. the cheese may be taken for granted, for the toppings determine and contribute to the overall quality of a software product, particularly as we discuss screen dimming functionality for a screen reader.
Screen dimming alternative options – Members of side proposition have, on numerous occasions and by a host of statements, been advised to seek screen dimming functionality elsewhere, to the point where it has been declared that there are other reliable and universally functional methods of darkening the display. From what I have gathered, the few specific suggestions made are all inadequate in some or the other way; Projector Only or Second Screen Only in the Projector Settings dialog does not work with certain processors and graphic cards, particularly on Windows 10 (due to which I had to downgrade back to Windows 8.1), turning down the brightness in Windows to 0 only grays out the screen so much, still leaving a significant amount of visibility for shouldersurfers, and a few third party tools mentioned require that the computer be actually put on Sleep mode. All in all, no functional option for screen dimming has been presented so far. Having said that, even if such a third party tool is discovered, all our other arguments about including this feature in NVDA core shall remain pertinent and we will continue to advocate for having such capabilities integrated into the NVDA screen reader.
Thanks.

On 12/18/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:
> The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well.
> Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down
> systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
>  In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link.
> You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access
> for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or
> security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that
> we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities
> and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not
> careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone
> in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and
> hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen.
>
>
> Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop
> paranoia  which is sadly rife in places of work these days.
>  It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in
> security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us.
>
>
> I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well,  in that many
> many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces,
> its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders
> as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most
> certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones
> that go dark when you plug in a set of phones.
>
>  However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and
> grab your cash!
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@...,
>
> Note to all this threads length is getting longer than the list allows
> text
>
> quoting wise, so trimmed some off.
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@... Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91 7506221750







Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Gene
 

You are using a variation of the slippery slope argument.  If one thing is done, that will lead to catastrophe because everything will then be done.  This fallacious slippery slope kind of argument is seldom correct because it assumes that people have no judgment and no appreciation of context.  Slippery slope is listed as a logical fallacy, and with good reason. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hey,

I must admit that I don't agree with you statement. Audio ducking and speech review, braille display features and so on are being made to to be able to read the screen in a proper way. This means that you get the information which is being displayed on a screen. We cannot let a screen reader to be a privacy tool. In this case, a screen reader could also clean up your registry and delete viruses and what not.

By the way, how about this?

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/3-quickest-ways-turn-computer-screen-windows/

The tools are very reliable.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Bhavya shah
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 17:40
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,
Both sides of the house have put up several fresh and compelling points which have been better explicated and backed than our previously undirected discourse. In order to continue this stimulation of conversation until a greater level of consensus and union of opinions is achieved, I would like to take this opportunity to counter a few of the arguments we have witnessed various members of side opposition delivering. Just like my previous input, allow me to offer two more points of rebuttle in order to demonstrate why proposition’s case still completely stands and how opposition’s case is falling:
Purpose of a screen reader – A major area of clash in this debate has been whether or not a feature such as screen dimming falls within the scope of a screen reader. To illustrate why side proposition firmly believes that it does, let us assess the history of mobile phones – originally designed to make phone calling and later text messaging more portable and ubiquitous, but today known for the quality of their cameras, ability to perform resource-intensive tasks, support for high-end gaming and what not. All modern phones conform to the basis standard of having calling and messaging options, but it is precisely the icings on the cake that distinguish one from the other. Let me show you how this analogy is absolutely applicable in the context of screen reading software too. While the strictest definition of a screen reader may simply be to read on-screen contents efficiently (as an opposition speaker has repeatedly asserted), popular screen readers, including NVDA, flaunt features such as audio ducking, mouse tracking, speech viewer, just to name a few, which, according to most interpretations, would probably not adhere to the restrictive and narrow definition provided by side opposition of the goals and contents of a screen reader. However, has that prevented any of these from being widely acclaimed, later borrowed, and frequently used elements of NVDA? In the modern world that we live in, a program or a product is not evaluated on its ability to merely perform its basic functions, but adjudicated on the basis of what else it can do to assist its target audience as a whole, i.e. the cheese may be taken for granted, for the toppings determine and contribute to the overall quality of a software product, particularly as we discuss screen dimming functionality for a screen reader.
Screen dimming alternative options – Members of side proposition have, on numerous occasions and by a host of statements, been advised to seek screen dimming functionality elsewhere, to the point where it has been declared that there are other reliable and universally functional methods of darkening the display. From what I have gathered, the few specific suggestions made are all inadequate in some or the other way; Projector Only or Second Screen Only in the Projector Settings dialog does not work with certain processors and graphic cards, particularly on Windows 10 (due to which I had to downgrade back to Windows 8.1), turning down the brightness in Windows to 0 only grays out the screen so much, still leaving a significant amount of visibility for shouldersurfers, and a few third party tools mentioned require that the computer be actually put on Sleep mode. All in all, no functional option for screen dimming has been presented so far. Having said that, even if such a third party tool is discovered, all our other arguments about including this feature in NVDA core shall remain pertinent and we will continue to advocate for having such capabilities integrated into the NVDA screen reader.
Thanks.

On 12/18/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:
> The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well.
> Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down
> systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
>  In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link.
> You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access
> for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or
> security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that
> we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities
> and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not
> careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone
> in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and
> hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen.
>
>
> Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop
> paranoia  which is sadly rife in places of work these days.
>  It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in
> security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us.
>
>
> I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well,  in that many
> many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces,
> its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders
> as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most
> certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones
> that go dark when you plug in a set of phones.
>
>  However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and
> grab your cash!
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@...,
>
> Note to all this threads length is getting longer than the list allows
> text
>
> quoting wise, so trimmed some off.
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@... Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91 7506221750








Re: screen shade

Gene
 

That's micromanaging to the point of diminishing returns.  For one thing, you don't know what the command will be so you don't know if you'll press it accidentally.  For another the screen orientation command you are talking about is an example of where an NVDA command clashes with another command, assuming you are talking about the clash between the read tables and screen orientation command.  there is no reason to assume or to worry that it will be at all likely that such a conflict will occur.  If such a feature is implemented as an add on or as an integration into NVDA, you are making far to much of a small potential and, I think, very unlikely problem.  NVDA plus something like f6  is not going to be a problem, for example. And as the add on is developed or the integration, users will have plenty of time to comment on such a conflict, if it occurs.  But this whole question of add on or integration would be meaningless if the add on were made a part of NVDA by supplying the add on with NVDA and if it is already running.  
 
Gene     

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] screen shade

I think no one would be against an addon for this. But I think most people would not want the developers to concentrate on integrating it into the core of NVDA since there are not many people who would use it regularly. An addon would be the best way because it gives the user the flexibility to install it if he or she needs it. Me personally, I don’t want to press that keystroke accidentally at work every day. I have to use lots of key strokes and I always have for example the problem in Microsoft Excel where I press a keystroke which changes the screen orientation. I press it accidentally but it iss annoying for the sighted people in our team who I work with. And I think there are many other users who would have this problem in certain situations.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Christo de Klerk
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 14:52
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] screen shade

 

I only need a screen shade occasionally and for short periods. Often sighted people also need to use my screen. What is wrong in controlling that by a hotkey rather than having to stick and remove a sheet of paper. Besides, I may be somewhere with my laptop where I don't have a handy sheet of paper at the ready. It seems like you guys who don't have a need for this feature are just not understanding that some of us do and that an add-on to do it would by far be the simplest. What skin would it be off your nose if someone created a little add-on for us misguided souls who want it? Yes, there are often several ways of achieving something, but some are more convenient than others. You don't have any idea of my personal circumstances and in my circumstances this feature would be handy and, besides, having it wouldn't make life more difficult for you in the slightest.       

On 2017/12/18 2:52 PM, Josh Kennedy wrote:

Instead of screen shade. Get a black piece of paper and put it over your screen. And voila, nobody can see your screen at all.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

 


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Adriani Botez
 

Hey,

I must admit that I don't agree with you statement. Audio ducking and speech review, braille display features and so on are being made to to be able to read the screen in a proper way. This means that you get the information which is being displayed on a screen. We cannot let a screen reader to be a privacy tool. In this case, a screen reader could also clean up your registry and delete viruses and what not.

By the way, how about this?

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/3-quickest-ways-turn-computer-screen-windows/

The tools are very reliable.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Bhavya shah
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 17:40
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,
Both sides of the house have put up several fresh and compelling points which have been better explicated and backed than our previously undirected discourse. In order to continue this stimulation of conversation until a greater level of consensus and union of opinions is achieved, I would like to take this opportunity to counter a few of the arguments we have witnessed various members of side opposition delivering. Just like my previous input, allow me to offer two more points of rebuttle in order to demonstrate why proposition’s case still completely stands and how opposition’s case is falling:
Purpose of a screen reader – A major area of clash in this debate has been whether or not a feature such as screen dimming falls within the scope of a screen reader. To illustrate why side proposition firmly believes that it does, let us assess the history of mobile phones – originally designed to make phone calling and later text messaging more portable and ubiquitous, but today known for the quality of their cameras, ability to perform resource-intensive tasks, support for high-end gaming and what not. All modern phones conform to the basis standard of having calling and messaging options, but it is precisely the icings on the cake that distinguish one from the other. Let me show you how this analogy is absolutely applicable in the context of screen reading software too. While the strictest definition of a screen reader may simply be to read on-screen contents efficiently (as an opposition speaker has repeatedly asserted), popular screen readers, including NVDA, flaunt features such as audio ducking, mouse tracking, speech viewer, just to name a few, which, according to most interpretations, would probably not adhere to the restrictive and narrow definition provided by side opposition of the goals and contents of a screen reader. However, has that prevented any of these from being widely acclaimed, later borrowed, and frequently used elements of NVDA? In the modern world that we live in, a program or a product is not evaluated on its ability to merely perform its basic functions, but adjudicated on the basis of what else it can do to assist its target audience as a whole, i.e. the cheese may be taken for granted, for the toppings determine and contribute to the overall quality of a software product, particularly as we discuss screen dimming functionality for a screen reader.
Screen dimming alternative options – Members of side proposition have, on numerous occasions and by a host of statements, been advised to seek screen dimming functionality elsewhere, to the point where it has been declared that there are other reliable and universally functional methods of darkening the display. From what I have gathered, the few specific suggestions made are all inadequate in some or the other way; Projector Only or Second Screen Only in the Projector Settings dialog does not work with certain processors and graphic cards, particularly on Windows 10 (due to which I had to downgrade back to Windows 8.1), turning down the brightness in Windows to 0 only grays out the screen so much, still leaving a significant amount of visibility for shouldersurfers, and a few third party tools mentioned require that the computer be actually put on Sleep mode. All in all, no functional option for screen dimming has been presented so far. Having said that, even if such a third party tool is discovered, all our other arguments about including this feature in NVDA core shall remain pertinent and we will continue to advocate for having such capabilities integrated into the NVDA screen reader.
Thanks.

On 12/18/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well.
Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down
systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link.
You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access
for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or
security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that
we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities
and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not
careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone
in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and
hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen.


Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop
paranoia which is sadly rife in places of work these days.
It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in
security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us.


I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well, in that many
many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces,
its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders
as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most
certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones
that go dark when you plug in a set of phones.

However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and
grab your cash!

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@...,

Note to all this threads length is getting longer than the list allows
text

quoting wise, so trimmed some off.






--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@... Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91 7506221750


Re: screen curtain

Karim Lakhani <karim.lakhani@...>
 

That would be a lot easier then trying to make things harder for people who are busy trying to make NVDA useable for all.
Jaws has added a lot of bells and whistles to the screen reader and has out priced themselves out of reach for people who can't afford it.
Thanks to the NVDA team.
 
 
 
EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...
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SKYPE: goldenace4
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Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Josh Kennedy
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] screen curtain

Why do you need a screen curtain when the rest of the sighted world does not need or use a screen curtain? If you want a screen curtain just put a black piece of paper over your screen.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: screen shade

Adriani Botez
 

I think no one would be against an addon for this. But I think most people would not want the developers to concentrate on integrating it into the core of NVDA since there are not many people who would use it regularly. An addon would be the best way because it gives the user the flexibility to install it if he or she needs it. Me personally, I don’t want to press that keystroke accidentally at work every day. I have to use lots of key strokes and I always have for example the problem in Microsoft Excel where I press a keystroke which changes the screen orientation. I press it accidentally but it iss annoying for the sighted people in our team who I work with. And I think there are many other users who would have this problem in certain situations.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Christo de Klerk
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 14:52
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] screen shade

 

I only need a screen shade occasionally and for short periods. Often sighted people also need to use my screen. What is wrong in controlling that by a hotkey rather than having to stick and remove a sheet of paper. Besides, I may be somewhere with my laptop where I don't have a handy sheet of paper at the ready. It seems like you guys who don't have a need for this feature are just not understanding that some of us do and that an add-on to do it would by far be the simplest. What skin would it be off your nose if someone created a little add-on for us misguided souls who want it? Yes, there are often several ways of achieving something, but some are more convenient than others. You don't have any idea of my personal circumstances and in my circumstances this feature would be handy and, besides, having it wouldn't make life more difficult for you in the slightest.       


On 2017/12/18 2:52 PM, Josh Kennedy wrote:

Instead of screen shade. Get a black piece of paper and put it over your screen. And voila, nobody can see your screen at all.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

 


Re: screen shade

Adriani Botez
 

Screen orientation is important to be reported. For example if you press a certain keystroke in microsoft excel, the screen orientation changes. It is quite confusing when you work together with sighted people and accidentally press that keystroke. However, the change in orientation is not  trigered by nvda. 

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 18.12.2017 um 17:36 schrieb Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...>:

Ladies and gentlemen,

Looks like I lost after all, and in the process, felt tired and burnt out. I think it might be best to let the add-ons community take care of this and see what happens from there, similar to screen orientation announcement that was originally part of an add-on and now is part of NVDA.

Some concluding remarks from me (for now):

  • Alternatives are out there: some folks mentioned dimming the display (which won’t really solve this issue) and physical screen shade (which needs to be purchased).
  • Priorities: As pointed out by some, we developers have priorities to sort through. I, for instance, am asked by this community to produce the 2018 edition of my tutorials, and given my current state, it might be delayed somewhat. Mick Curran is investigating how to let NVDA talk to UIA better, and Reef is going through some bugs and enhancements at the moment. Jamie sent in a patch that’ll make Firefox 58 better for NVDA users, and Quentin is taking a holiday break. Given the effort needed for screen shade, coupled with what we developers are doing at the moment, I suggest that we let the add-ons community take care of this one.
  • Will screen shade increase NVDA’s popularity: as noted by another developer on an online chat, this debate shows the popular appeal for this feature. For some, it is a sound argument, but I think what makes a product popular isn’t inclusion of popular requests alone – stability, consistency, being faithful to its duties to a point where enterprise adoption can occur and what not.

P.S. Looks like I am not a good debater after all…

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Christo de Klerk
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 5:52 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] screen shade

 

I only need a screen shade occasionally and for short periods. Often sighted people also need to use my screen. What is wrong in controlling that by a hotkey rather than having to stick and remove a sheet of paper. Besides, I may be somewhere with my laptop where I don't have a handy sheet of paper at the ready. It seems like you guys who don't have a need for this feature are just not understanding that some of us do and that an add-on to do it would by far be the simplest. What skin would it be off your nose if someone created a little add-on for us misguided souls who want it? Yes, there are often several ways of achieving something, but some are more convenient than others. You don't have any idea of my personal circumstances and in my circumstances this feature would be handy and, besides, having it wouldn't make life more difficult for you in the slightest.       

On 2017/12/18 2:52 PM, Josh Kennedy wrote:

Instead of screen shade. Get a black piece of paper and put it over your screen. And voila, nobody can see your screen at all.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10