Date   

The Dimmer program.

Kevin Cussick
 

Hi all, OK for just now and I still want this some way in nvda at some point but the little dimmer program does seem to work thanks to the person Giles I hope I have spelled your name properly? anyway thanks for now this will do me I have had a little but of trouble with nvda short cut not working when the screen was off but it seems Ok again. will play some more and thanks again.


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Rui Fontes
 

Just press any key and screen is back on!

Rui


Às 21:33 de 18/12/2017, Gene New Zealand escreveu:

Hi Adriani
I am going to try out the first option under the power management part of windows. It was easier enough to do but will get the wife to look to make sure it is off and does not come back on with the mouse.
I know under the power management part i can set the monitor to turn off after say a minute but as soon as you move the mouse it wakes up.
I think there is another settings where you can specify it to wake it but would have to look around.
so will have to see what this one does and also how to turn it back on.
At present I just hit the power button on the monitor no biggy.
I wonder if you hit it again does it turn it back on?
I did look on my android phone under talk back and it has a screen dim feature so does this mean it only dims the screen say to a very low level? and is that the same for the jaws feature or does it turn off the display fully? if it works.
Gene nz
On 12/19/2017 7:54 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
Hey,

I must admit that I don't agree with you statement. Audio ducking and speech review, braille display features and so on are being made to to be able to read the screen in a proper way. This means that you get the information which is being displayed on a screen. We cannot let a screen reader to be a privacy tool. In this case, a screen reader could also clean up your registry and delete viruses and what not.

By the way, how about this?

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/3-quickest-ways-turn-computer-screen-windows/

The tools are very reliable.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von:nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Bhavya shah
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 17:40
An:nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,
Both sides of the house have put up several fresh and compelling points which have been better explicated and backed than our previously undirected discourse. In order to continue this stimulation of conversation until a greater level of consensus and union of opinions is achieved, I would like to take this opportunity to counter a few of the arguments we have witnessed various members of side opposition delivering. Just like my previous input, allow me to offer two more points of rebuttle in order to demonstrate why proposition’s case still completely stands and how opposition’s case is falling:
Purpose of a screen reader – A major area of clash in this debate has been whether or not a feature such as screen dimming falls within the scope of a screen reader. To illustrate why side proposition firmly believes that it does, let us assess the history of mobile phones – originally designed to make phone calling and later text messaging more portable and ubiquitous, but today known for the quality of their cameras, ability to perform resource-intensive tasks, support for high-end gaming and what not. All modern phones conform to the basis standard of having calling and messaging options, but it is precisely the icings on the cake that distinguish one from the other. Let me show you how this analogy is absolutely applicable in the context of screen reading software too. While the strictest definition of a screen reader may simply be to read on-screen contents efficiently (as an opposition speaker has repeatedly asserted), popular screen readers, including NVDA, flaunt features such as audio ducking, mouse tracking, speech viewer, just to name a few, which, according to most interpretations, would probably not adhere to the restrictive and narrow definition provided by side opposition of the goals and contents of a screen reader. However, has that prevented any of these from being widely acclaimed, later borrowed, and frequently used elements of NVDA? In the modern world that we live in, a program or a product is not evaluated on its ability to merely perform its basic functions, but adjudicated on the basis of what else it can do to assist its target audience as a whole, i.e. the cheese may be taken for granted, for the toppings determine and contribute to the overall quality of a software product, particularly as we discuss screen dimming functionality for a screen reader.
Screen dimming alternative options – Members of side proposition have, on numerous occasions and by a host of statements, been advised to seek screen dimming functionality elsewhere, to the point where it has been declared that there are other reliable and universally functional methods of darkening the display. From what I have gathered, the few specific suggestions made are all inadequate in some or the other way; Projector Only or Second Screen Only in the Projector Settings dialog does not work with certain processors and graphic cards, particularly on Windows 10 (due to which I had to downgrade back to Windows 8.1), turning down the brightness in Windows to 0 only grays out the screen so much, still leaving a significant amount of visibility for shouldersurfers, and a few third party tools mentioned require that the computer be actually put on Sleep mode. All in all, no functional option for screen dimming has been presented so far. Having said that, even if such a third party tool is discovered, all our other arguments about including this feature in NVDA core shall remain pertinent and we will continue to advocate for having such capabilities integrated into the NVDA screen reader.
Thanks.

On 12/18/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well.
Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down
systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link.
You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access
for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or
security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that
we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities
and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not
careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone
in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and
hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen.


Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop
paranoia which is sadly rife in places of work these days.
It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in
security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us.


I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well, in that many
many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces,
its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders
as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most
certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones
that go dark when you plug in a set of phones.

However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and
grab your cash!

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@...,

Note to all this threads length is getting longer than the list allows
text

quoting wise, so trimmed some off.





--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons:https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address:bhavya.shah125@... Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 orwww.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91 7506221750






--
Image NVDA certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Chris Shook <chris0309@...>
 

If all Screen shading does is blackout your screen, I don't know if it'd be something NVDA should incorporate.
I'd rather see something more useful than an addon that just blacks out the screen.
I understand the privacy argument, but that's only going to be useful for laptops and tablets. With a desktop, you can leave the monitor off and still use the computer.
As a previous user stated, it really depends what NVDA's game plan is. If they're trying to compete with the other screen readers, then they'll need to add screen shading.
If they do incorporate it into the main screen reader, I'd suggest adding a bunch of other new and useful features along with it.
Chris


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 


Not all laptop monitors have a way to shut off the screen, and if they do, it's usually only until you hit another keystroke.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not simply switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have both advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen (backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a bit like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:
> Hi,
> As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote access, etc.).
>  From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may think.
> As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
> Didier Colle
> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
>
> Hi all,
>
>
> I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.
>
> When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand why it would not save on battery....
>
> The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.
>
>
> On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7
> for switching between different display modes (signal send only to
> laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send to
> both) or
> Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
> Fn+battery
> power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.
>
> Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may
> be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the
> signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether
> windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
> request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is a
> pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).
>
>
> Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
> exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> Didier
>
>
> On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
>>  From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders, this
>> function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
>> If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to do
>> it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus but
>> then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use the
>> invisible window not the visible one.
>>
>> In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
>> Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
>> monitor off switch..... ahem.
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> bglists@...
>> Sent via blueyonder.
>> Please address personal email to:-
>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>> in the display name field.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
>> <kevinchao89@...>
>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
>> Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
>>
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
>>> recently got screen shade.
>>>
>>> Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>







Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Kevin Cussick
 

it did not work I just tried it on an all in one pc and it crashed sound but got it back again.

On 18/12/2017 02:29, enes sarıbaş wrote:
hi,
The projector options apparently does not work for newer laptops.
On 12/18/2017 4:02 AM, David Moore wrote:

I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that many people will really need, and will help them do a job. Many features in some screen readers are just not needed. You do not need a feature to do searches for you, when you can do a Google search. You don’t need this screen shade, because you can just turn off your screen in the Windows settings.

I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.

It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for someone to be employed. We need screen readers to help people work many jobs, that should be the first importance. Next, intertainment uses need to be accessible with a screen reader. If you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!

NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I am so glad it doesn’t.

It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to install JAWS, and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.

David Moore

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

*From: *Gene New Zealand <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>
*Sent: *Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi

I agree with Joseph.

There might be things from other screen readers we might use or might not use so I would rather the developers concentrate on screen reader features that help.

if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that way if one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.

then down the track it could be added like you see with some addons that code gets added to the core of nvda.

Gene nz

On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:

well fare enough,   but I still think it should be in the core one
day in nvda.   if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I
feel this is a feature for us blind screen reader users that is
needed and would be a good thing for nvda to have built in.

On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community,
I believe that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA
Core should focus on screen reading, with add-ons coming in
with optional features. I do understand that I can be
heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out below, but I'm
speaking from experience that just following the lead of
another screen reader just because NVDA should is something
I'm uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade
feature cannot guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous
ways of breaching it, including sounds, speech, remote access,
data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick via
Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little
program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't work.
I think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just to say
that you won't consider it if people say other screen readers
have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But
why not simply switching off the screen (power button on
an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key
combination) on a laptop? Then you have both advantages,
the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the
screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is
send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows
what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to
"guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the
quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not
really guarantee privacy, as there are means to
circumvent this (speech output, braille displays,
remote access, etc.).
   From what I can gather, this function does not
result in extended battery life nor power savings.
When this function is turned on, an overlay window is
imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off
removes this overlay. As I said above, this does not
provide privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall
opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then
I think an add-on would be a more appropriate
solution. Only after looking at justifications and
costs should developers consider adding this into
NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for me, a
justification that goes along the lines of, "because
another screen reader has this" is something I won't
even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor,
I do not understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet,
smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power
sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between
laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal
send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only
or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it
up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5
to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although
such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which
monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have
no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides
an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some
laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is
supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something
completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io wrote:

   From what I know about Windows and indeed most
screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to
save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it
was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually
loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you
want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop
is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@...
<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
<mailto:kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?



Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a
long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on
or natively?
Thanks!





















--
Image NVDA certified expert

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Kevin Cussick
 

Yes, good points and I agree 100% thanks for the post.

On 18/12/2017 02:27, enes sarıbaş wrote:
hi joseph,
I agree that this should not be included just because jaws has this. However, it should be included as a privacy feature for the blind. Many of us put on headphones,  and do things with our pcs, such as bank transactions or chats, that we do not want other people to spy on. I use the project option in windows to disable the screen. However, I am told this is no longer functional in newer laptops. Therefore, this is a majorly important screen reader feature for me. Also, wouldn't this feature not take up much space? Similar to audio ducking? I would argue that this is more important than audio ducking.
On 12/18/2017 12:04 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote access, etc.).
 From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7 for
switching between different display modes (signal send only to laptop
monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send to both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may be
useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the signal
send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether windows
has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to request that
info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is a pure BIOS
feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
 From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao" <kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
recently
got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!






Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Kevin Cussick
 

Yes, I tried this setting when I first got windows10 and even I can see some stuff at 0%

On 18/12/2017 02:11, Tyler Wood wrote:
Hi,
The why part should be pretty obvious. I have had my screen at 0
percent and sighted people can still see it very clearly.
On 12/17/17, David Moore <jesusloves1966@...> wrote:
I did not think about the fact that a sighted person can look over their
shoulder for prying eyes.
That is a great point! Good come back LOL!
I like good debates and discussions, because I just learned something right
there!
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Kevin Chao
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Screen shade is useful for protecting confidential work information, which
we may not know about prying eyes, and a sighted person can see when someone
is looking over their shoulders.

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:27 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
As far as I know you can't just turn off the screen in the Windows settings
and doing so may cause you real trouble if you can do it.  If you
unexpectedly need sighted assistance, to deal with some sort of maintenance
or performance problem, the screen should be on.

The screen shade has the advantage that the screen is still on and a sighted
person can work with the machine if needed.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: David Moore
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that many people
will really need, and will help them do a job. Many features in some screen
readers are just not needed. You do not need a feature to do searches for
you, when you can do a Google search. You don’t need this screen shade,
because you can just turn off your screen in the Windows settings.
I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.
It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for someone to be
employed. We need screen readers to help people work many jobs, that should
be the first importance. Next, intertainment uses need to be accessible with
a screen reader. If you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!
NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I am so glad
it doesn’t.
It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to install JAWS,
and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi

I agree with Joseph.

There might be things from other screen readers we might use or might not
use so I would rather the developers concentrate on screen reader features
that help.

if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that way if
one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.

then down the track it could be added like you see with some addons that
code gets added to the core of nvda.



Gene nz


On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:
well fare enough,   but I still think it should be in the core one day in
nvda.   if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I feel this is a
feature for us blind screen reader users that is needed and would be a good
thing for nvda to have built in.

On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I believe
that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on
screen reading, with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do
understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out
below, but I'm speaking from experience that just following the lead of
another screen reader just because NVDA should is something I'm
uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot
guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it, including
sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin
Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on my
laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in nvda
and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say
other screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not simply
switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or using the
Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have both
advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a
blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader users.
Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee
privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille
displays, remote access, etc.).
   From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended battery
life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay window
is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this
overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may
think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it
should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more
appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs should
developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for
me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen
reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand
why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is
one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
   From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!
















--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material
at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New
Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA
screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or
location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please
visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals
from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert
exam.




Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Kevin Cussick
 

I tried this now and nvda and narrator crashed so no dice windows10 home 64bit.

On 18/12/2017 01:27, Gene wrote:
As far as I know you can't just turn off the screen in the Windows settings and doing so may cause you real trouble if you can do it.  If you unexpectedly need sighted assistance, to deal with some sort of maintenance or performance problem, the screen should be on.
The screen shade has the advantage that the screen is still on and a sighted person can work with the machine if needed.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* David Moore <mailto:jesusloves1966@...>
*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:02 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that many people will really need, and will help them do a job. Many features in some screen readers are just not needed. You do not need a feature to do searches for you, when you can do a Google search. You don’t need this screen shade, because you can just turn off your screen in the Windows settings.
I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.
It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for someone to be employed. We need screen readers to help people work many jobs, that should be the first importance. Next, intertainment uses need to be accessible with a screen reader. If you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!
NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I am so glad it doesn’t.
It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to install JAWS, and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.
David Moore
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
*From: *Gene New Zealand <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>
*Sent: *Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
Hi
I agree with Joseph.
There might be things from other screen readers we might use or might not use so I would rather the developers concentrate on screen reader features that help.
if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that way if one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.
then down the track it could be added like you see with some addons that code gets added to the core of nvda.
Gene nz
On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:
well fare enough,   but I still think it should be in the core one
day in nvda.   if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I
feel this is a feature for us blind screen reader users that is
needed and would be a good thing for nvda to have built in.
On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I
believe that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core
should focus on screen reading, with add-ons coming in with
optional features. I do understand that I can be heavy-handed at
times like the one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from
experience that just following the lead of another screen reader
just because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with.
Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot guarantee 100
percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it, including
sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick via
Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little
program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I
think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just to say that
you won't consider it if people say other screen readers have it
is very heavy handed.
On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
Hi Joseeph,
Thanks for the clarification.
Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But
why not simply switching off the screen (power button on an
external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key
combination) on a laptop? Then you have both advantages, the
pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.
I agree with the rest.
If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is
send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)
Kind Regards,
Didier
On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows
what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to
"guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the
quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not
really guarantee privacy, as there are means to
circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote
access, etc.).
   From what I can gather, this function does not
result in extended battery life nor power savings. When
this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed
on top of other windows, and turning this off removes
this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide
privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall
opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I
think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution.
Only after looking at justifications and costs should
developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my
opinion, and personally for me, a justification that
goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader
has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
Hi all,
I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.
When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I
do not understand why it would not save on battery....
The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet,
smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks
in such systems.
On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between
laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal
send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or
signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When
I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to
save battery.
Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although
such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which
monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no
clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides
an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some
laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).
Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is
supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something
completely different.
Kind regards,
Didier
On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io wrote:
   From what I know about Windows and indeed most
screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to
save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it
was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually
loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want
it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.
In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is
called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.
Brian
bglists@...
<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@...
<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...> <mailto:kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
Hi,
VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a
long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.
Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on
or natively?
Thanks!
--
Image NVDA certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: screen shade

Giles Turnbull
 

Hi all,

the idea of a screen shade isn't one I've thought about before, but I can see how it could be useful! I was curious whether there is anything out there in the freeware community for such tasks.

I've found this tiny download and think it works pretty well (I asked my dad, who is sighted, to tell me if he could see anything on the screen). It's a program called Dimmer, made by a guy called Nelson Pires. The website says “Dimmer is a little free application designed to help control the brightness of your computer.”

You download it and extract the zip file into a folder. There is an exe file that runs the tool; there is an xml file that saves the settings, and a small help file. There's no installation, it just runs and to uninstall it you just delete the folder.

When you run it, it places an icon on the system tray. That took me a while to figure out how to access it! In Win10. I used Cortana to go to taskbar settings where there is a list of all icons that are running on the task bar and system tray, along with check boxes to say whether the icon should be visable or not. Most are selected to not be visible. I used the tab key to work my way down the list and then switched to object navigation to activate the show setting for Dimmer.

When you find Dimmer on the system tray, use the application key (between right ALT and right Ctrl) menu and find the configure... option. Press enter key on that and you get a window with an opacity slider. You can choose between 95 percent opacity (almost nothing viewable on screen) and 5 percent opacity (almost maximum brightness). You can use home and end buttons to jump to 5 or 95, or the left and right cursors to choose what level you prefer. OK, it's not a single hotkey but it'll probably be a stop gap until anybody wants to write an addin to achieve 100 percent opacity.

For comparisson, there is a very similar freeware called PangoBright but that apparently only reduces the brightness to 20 percent / 80 percent opacity and finding its download sites drove me mad! What did amuse me was that the reason Dimmer is limited at 95 percent opacity is because, for the sighted folk in the world, they wouldn't be able to turn the screen on again when they couldn't see the window ... #BlindIsBest

Here's the download page for Dimmer 1.0 on the author's website: http://www.nelsonpires.com/software/dimmer/

Hope this is of some interest :)

Giles


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Kevin Cussick
 

I don't have the device you talk of, but I do remember when it was just put out. I have tried before in windows10 home to chose an external display I can't remember the error I got but it did not work because I didn't have the pc connected to say the TV and I am not going to get Leeds trailing all over the place just to switch off the display.

On 18/12/2017 01:10, Pranav Lal wrote:
Hi all,
One way that has worked for me in the past is to hit windows key + p and then to choose an external display. The screen does turn off. You have to then do this upon every reboot.
In addition, several years ago, a company called Techno-Vision in the UK made a physical device that would turn off the screen. It still works. It plugs into the display port of a laptop and is treated like a display. See http://techno-vision.co.uk and ask them if they still have the device.
The problem with an app solution is that on many corporate systems, it is difficult to install because you need permission.
Pranav
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 3:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say other screen readers have it is very heavy handed.
On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not simply switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have both advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote access, etc.).
From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!











Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Kevin Cussick
 

You can't turn off your screen in windows10 home using the laptop or all in ones don't know where you got that one from.

On 18/12/2017 01:02, David Moore wrote:
I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that many people will really need, and will help them do a job. Many features in some screen readers are just not needed. You do not need a feature to do searches for you, when you can do a Google search. You don’t need this screen shade, because you can just turn off your screen in the Windows settings.
I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.
It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for someone to be employed. We need screen readers to help people work many jobs, that should be the first importance. Next, intertainment uses need to be accessible with a screen reader. If you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!
NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I am so glad it doesn’t.
It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to install JAWS, and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.
David Moore
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
*From: *Gene New Zealand <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>
*Sent: *Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
Hi
I agree with Joseph.
There might be things from other screen readers we might use or might not use so I would rather the developers concentrate on screen reader features that help.
if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that way if one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.
then down the track it could be added like you see with some addons that code gets added to the core of nvda.
Gene nz
On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:
well fare enough,   but I still think it should be in the core one
day in nvda.   if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I
feel this is a feature for us blind screen reader users that is
needed and would be a good thing for nvda to have built in.
On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I
believe that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core
should focus on screen reading, with add-ons coming in with
optional features. I do understand that I can be heavy-handed at
times like the one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from
experience that just following the lead of another screen reader
just because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with.
Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot guarantee 100
percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it, including
sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick via
Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little
program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I
think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just to say that
you won't consider it if people say other screen readers have it
is very heavy handed.
On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
Hi Joseeph,
Thanks for the clarification.
Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But
why not simply switching off the screen (power button on an
external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key
combination) on a laptop? Then you have both advantages, the
pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.
I agree with the rest.
If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is
send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)
Kind Regards,
Didier
On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows
what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to
"guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the
quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not
really guarantee privacy, as there are means to
circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote
access, etc.).
   From what I can gather, this function does not
result in extended battery life nor power savings. When
this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed
on top of other windows, and turning this off removes
this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide
privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall
opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I
think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution.
Only after looking at justifications and costs should
developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my
opinion, and personally for me, a justification that
goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader
has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
Hi all,
I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.
When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I
do not understand why it would not save on battery....
The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet,
smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks
in such systems.
On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between
laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal
send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or
signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When
I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to
save battery.
Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although
such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which
monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no
clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides
an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some
laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).
Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is
supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something
completely different.
Kind regards,
Didier
On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io wrote:
   From what I know about Windows and indeed most
screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to
save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it
was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually
loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want
it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.
In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is
called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.
Brian
bglists@...
<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@...
<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...> <mailto:kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
Hi,
VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a
long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.
Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on
or natively?
Thanks!
--
Image NVDA certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: competition

Kevin Cussick
 

but for the screen black out I suspect you might need an installed copy of nvda but can't say for sure so addons might not really be the way to go. but as I say this if you did need an installed copy then I suppose it wouldn't really matter as a portable version with the feature built in wouldn't work. this is if I am correct I do not know this.

On 18/12/2017 00:16, Don H wrote:
I am one that hopes that NVDA doesn't try to compete with any other screen reader but continue to make improvements that makes the most sense relative to giving blind people as much access to computers as possible.  Addons is a perfect way to introduce useful tools in a efficient way.
On 12/17/2017 6:07 PM, Gene wrote:
NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources. However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.
Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run.
If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Don H <mailto:lmddh50@...>
*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.




Re: competition

Kevin Cussick
 

good points and I agree with most if not all of them, thanks for posting.

On 18/12/2017 00:07, Gene wrote:
NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources. However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.
Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run.
If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Don H <mailto:lmddh50@...>
*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* [nvda] competition
When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


Re: screen shade

Sarah k Alawami
 

I actually have written very sensivite thigns the public can see at my school. I'm no longer paranoid as someone can look over my shoulder. I don't even use the screen curtain on my mac anymore as there could still be ways of delving into what you just typed. I like the idea, but I'd say this is a rank 5 suggestion, very low priority in my humble opinion.

Take care

On Dec 18, 2017, at 5:35 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:

Oh ye trusting fellow... :-)
I think many people just like they talk loudly to phones in the street telling everyone of their private goings on often miss the obvious and yes they do use their laptops for  sensitive stuff in public.

Still, as I said in a different thread today, one can only go so far for security, the weak link is always us users.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: <ely.r@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] screen shade


Good idea!

I have to wonder what people are writing on their computers in what I assume is a public area that they do not want others to see. If someone has full vision, one would assume that they have their screen turned on so they can both read and write. If so, then it is likely that they will not be writing highly sensitive things that others might see as they walk by. Sorry if this seems insensitive, but. . .

Rick



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Josh Kennedy
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 7:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] screen shade



Instead of screen shade. Get a black piece of paper and put it over your screen. And voila, nobody can see your screen at all.





Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10









Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Kevin Cussick
 

I would like to see it but I am no programmer and don't have a clew how hard it would be to implement but if it could be done I think it would be a nice feature.

On 17/12/2017 22:59, Dennis L wrote:
I agree it should be implamented. If you want you can use it if you don’t know one is forcing you to do so.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 5:47 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?
well fare enough, but I still think it should be in the core one day
in nvda. if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I feel this
is a feature for us blind screen reader users that is needed and would be a good thing for nvda to have built in.
On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I believe that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on screen reading, with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from experience that just following the lead of another screen reader just because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it, including sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say other screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not simply switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have both advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a
bit like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote access, etc.).
From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders,
this function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to
do it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus
but then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use
the invisible window not the visible one.

In the issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!















Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi Adriani


I am going to try out the first option under the power management part of windows. It was easier enough to do but will get the wife to look to make sure it is off and does not come back on with the mouse.

I know under the power management part i can set the monitor to turn off after say a minute but as soon as you move the mouse it wakes up.
I think there is another settings where you can specify it to wake it but would have to look around.


so will have to see what this one does and also how to turn it back on.

At present I just hit the power button on the monitor no biggy.
I wonder if you hit it again does it turn it back on?


I did look on my android phone under talk back and it has a screen dim feature so does this mean it only dims the screen say to a very low level? and is that the same for the jaws feature or does it turn off the display fully? if it works.

Gene nz

On 12/19/2017 7:54 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
Hey,

I must admit that I don't agree with you statement. Audio ducking and speech review, braille display features and so on are being made to to be able to read the screen in a proper way. This means that you get the information which is being displayed on a screen. We cannot let a screen reader to be a privacy tool. In this case, a screen reader could also clean up your registry and delete viruses and what not.

By the way, how about this?

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/3-quickest-ways-turn-computer-screen-windows/

The tools are very reliable.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Bhavya shah
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 17:40
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,
Both sides of the house have put up several fresh and compelling points which have been better explicated and backed than our previously undirected discourse. In order to continue this stimulation of conversation until a greater level of consensus and union of opinions is achieved, I would like to take this opportunity to counter a few of the arguments we have witnessed various members of side opposition delivering. Just like my previous input, allow me to offer two more points of rebuttle in order to demonstrate why proposition’s case still completely stands and how opposition’s case is falling:
Purpose of a screen reader – A major area of clash in this debate has been whether or not a feature such as screen dimming falls within the scope of a screen reader. To illustrate why side proposition firmly believes that it does, let us assess the history of mobile phones – originally designed to make phone calling and later text messaging more portable and ubiquitous, but today known for the quality of their cameras, ability to perform resource-intensive tasks, support for high-end gaming and what not. All modern phones conform to the basis standard of having calling and messaging options, but it is precisely the icings on the cake that distinguish one from the other. Let me show you how this analogy is absolutely applicable in the context of screen reading software too. While the strictest definition of a screen reader may simply be to read on-screen contents efficiently (as an opposition speaker has repeatedly asserted), popular screen readers, including NVDA, flaunt features such as audio ducking, mouse tracking, speech viewer, just to name a few, which, according to most interpretations, would probably not adhere to the restrictive and narrow definition provided by side opposition of the goals and contents of a screen reader. However, has that prevented any of these from being widely acclaimed, later borrowed, and frequently used elements of NVDA? In the modern world that we live in, a program or a product is not evaluated on its ability to merely perform its basic functions, but adjudicated on the basis of what else it can do to assist its target audience as a whole, i.e. the cheese may be taken for granted, for the toppings determine and contribute to the overall quality of a software product, particularly as we discuss screen dimming functionality for a screen reader.
Screen dimming alternative options – Members of side proposition have, on numerous occasions and by a host of statements, been advised to seek screen dimming functionality elsewhere, to the point where it has been declared that there are other reliable and universally functional methods of darkening the display. From what I have gathered, the few specific suggestions made are all inadequate in some or the other way; Projector Only or Second Screen Only in the Projector Settings dialog does not work with certain processors and graphic cards, particularly on Windows 10 (due to which I had to downgrade back to Windows 8.1), turning down the brightness in Windows to 0 only grays out the screen so much, still leaving a significant amount of visibility for shouldersurfers, and a few third party tools mentioned require that the computer be actually put on Sleep mode. All in all, no functional option for screen dimming has been presented so far. Having said that, even if such a third party tool is discovered, all our other arguments about including this feature in NVDA core shall remain pertinent and we will continue to advocate for having such capabilities integrated into the NVDA screen reader.
Thanks.

On 12/18/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:
The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well. 
Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down 
systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
 In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link.
You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access 
for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or 
security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that 
we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities 
and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not 
careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone 
in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and 
hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen.


Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop 
paranoia  which is sadly rife in places of work these days.
 It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in 
security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us.


I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well,  in that many 
many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces, 
its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders 
as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most 
certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones 
that go dark when you plug in a set of phones.

 However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and 
grab your cash!

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@...,

Note to all this threads length is getting longer than the list allows 
text

quoting wise, so trimmed some off.







--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@... Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91 7506221750








--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: season greetings

David Moore
 

Hi all!

I wish all of you a very merry Christmas as well. May we reflect back over this year, and ask ourselves how we can improve next year. May all of you have a joyful Christmas. My wife and I will be alone. May all of you, who are alone, think about what Christmas is about, and get on lists or social media. I will be here some LOL! Merry Christmas, all!

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: anthony borg
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 8:32 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] season greetings

 

Wishing all list members a very merry Christmas and all the best for 2018.

Best regards

Anthony

 


Re: competition

Gene
 

Maybe, maybe not.  Some of the most requested items haven't been added to NVDA for years.  Maybe they will be some day but the developers have showed no signs of being intimidated by majority views.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

The thing is, as more users would comment on an addon and would create new issues on github to tell developers what they should improve, as more probable it will be that those functions will be taken into the core of NVDA. It depends on how many people are going to benefit from that function. So, the advantage of having addons is that there is a very good opportunity for users to give feedback and it gives flexibility for developers to implement that feedback faster.

 

If you would have a screen reader which has every function implemented, you would have to wait until next release to see improvements.

 

In my view, jaws has lots of functions which have not been improved since years. But it implements lots of new features and lets the old ones unchanged. As of now, jaws does not work with firefox nor with edge as good as NVDA does. Instead of bringing such features which will be used by a small part of users FS could concentrate on how to improve user experience for example through more intuitive keystrokes, simpler menue structure, better productivity features and so on. My perception is that FS is implementing every thing they have in one product (zoomtext, open book and jaws). So, Jaws is not only a screen reader but also a multi purpose application. If you are asking jme, this is a clear measure to reach more users and to increase the range of relevant customers..

 

And finally, it is the wrong way to make a market out of a screen reader. A screen reader has a very big social impact on people who have the same right to get access to information as sighted people. In my view a screen reader should be a social movement and not a product which investors hope to gain capital from.

 

So, the best way would be the screen readers to come together and build a powerful software, together with mainstream software developers. There are a lot of possibilities to get donations and sponsors for such a project and lots of jobs could be created without having to let the users pay so much money for a software. There is no plausible reason why a company would be forced to gain capital from such a product.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von erik burggraaf
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 20:50
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] competition

 

It sounds as though people have a misunderstanding of how windows screen readers work.  The other guy relies very heavily on it's own add-ons, called scripts.  The difference is that the other guy comes with many more customizations pre-installed.  Of course, you pay for them all, whether you use them or not.  Thanks to all the jaws-wielding seniors who paid for visual studio and microsoft sharepoint support.  Enjoy. 

Add-ons, scripts, apps, extentions, and let's face it, windows screen readers in premis are old paradigm.  The fact that we're still forced to use them, whether by manual instalation or base configuration, is against good modern design.  The real answer of course is for software designers to comply with accessibility standards and conduct proper quality control  Until that happens, hard coding screen readers through proprietary measures are the only recourse.

The add-on store isn't a bad idea.  Base-installing more add-ons might also be convenient, although that has it's own set of problems.  Meanwhile, we have to be advocating modern new paradigm design against the looming day when third party screen readers are a thing of the past.

Best,

Erik

On December 18, 2017 12:40:12 PM "Mike and Jenna" <schwaltze@...> wrote:

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

 

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.



 




--
Gera
Enviado desde
Thunderbird


Re: competition

Adriani Botez
 

The thing is, as more users would comment on an addon and would create new issues on github to tell developers what they should improve, as more probable it will be that those functions will be taken into the core of NVDA. It depends on how many people are going to benefit from that function. So, the advantage of having addons is that there is a very good opportunity for users to give feedback and it gives flexibility for developers to implement that feedback faster.

 

If you would have a screen reader which has every function implemented, you would have to wait until next release to see improvements.

 

In my view, jaws has lots of functions which have not been improved since years. But it implements lots of new features and lets the old ones unchanged. As of now, jaws does not work with firefox nor with edge as good as NVDA does. Instead of bringing such features which will be used by a small part of users FS could concentrate on how to improve user experience for example through more intuitive keystrokes, simpler menue structure, better productivity features and so on. My perception is that FS is implementing every thing they have in one product (zoomtext, open book and jaws). So, Jaws is not only a screen reader but also a multi purpose application. If you are asking jme, this is a clear measure to reach more users and to increase the range of relevant customers..

 

And finally, it is the wrong way to make a market out of a screen reader. A screen reader has a very big social impact on people who have the same right to get access to information as sighted people. In my view a screen reader should be a social movement and not a product which investors hope to gain capital from.

 

So, the best way would be the screen readers to come together and build a powerful software, together with mainstream software developers. There are a lot of possibilities to get donations and sponsors for such a project and lots of jobs could be created without having to let the users pay so much money for a software. There is no plausible reason why a company would be forced to gain capital from such a product.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von erik burggraaf
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 20:50
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] competition

 

It sounds as though people have a misunderstanding of how windows screen readers work.  The other guy relies very heavily on it's own add-ons, called scripts.  The difference is that the other guy comes with many more customizations pre-installed.  Of course, you pay for them all, whether you use them or not.  Thanks to all the jaws-wielding seniors who paid for visual studio and microsoft sharepoint support.  Enjoy. 

Add-ons, scripts, apps, extentions, and let's face it, windows screen readers in premis are old paradigm.  The fact that we're still forced to use them, whether by manual instalation or base configuration, is against good modern design.  The real answer of course is for software designers to comply with accessibility standards and conduct proper quality control  Until that happens, hard coding screen readers through proprietary measures are the only recourse.

The add-on store isn't a bad idea.  Base-installing more add-ons might also be convenient, although that has it's own set of problems.  Meanwhile, we have to be advocating modern new paradigm design against the looming day when third party screen readers are a thing of the past.

Best,

Erik

On December 18, 2017 12:40:12 PM "Mike and Jenna" <schwaltze@...> wrote:

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

 

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.



 




--
Gera
Enviado desde
Thunderbird


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

 

Well we have dictation bridge and other things.

Dictation is a nice gimic for the blind.

Here is the thing, if you are unabled through disability or simply don't care to type or want to record something and translate it back to text later then it may be fine.

Especially for those with rsi like my brother that helps a lot.

Its not much good for an office but without it he wouldn't be able to function at all on a computer.

As it is he still uses the keyboard a lot and is on a lot of drugs even to type so it has its merrits.

Not every solution fits all this is not a 1 size world here nothing is.

On 19/12/2017 8:31 a.m., Adriani Botez wrote:
Well, then let’s take the dictation argument. Lots of people would use it and though it is not part of a screen reader because it is not meant to improve reading what is being displayed on a screen.



Best

Adriani


Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Gene
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 20:11
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


You are using a variation of the slippery slope argument. If one thing is done, that will lead to catastrophe because everything will then be done. This fallacious slippery slope kind of argument is seldom correct because it assumes that people have no judgment and no appreciation of context. Slippery slope is listed as a logical fallacy, and with good reason.


Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@...>

Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 12:54 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hey,

I must admit that I don't agree with you statement. Audio ducking and speech review, braille display features and so on are being made to to be able to read the screen in a proper way. This means that you get the information which is being displayed on a screen. We cannot let a screen reader to be a privacy tool. In this case, a screen reader could also clean up your registry and delete viruses and what not.

By the way, how about this?

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/3-quickest-ways-turn-computer-screen-windows/

The tools are very reliable.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Bhavya shah
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 17:40
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,
Both sides of the house have put up several fresh and compelling points which have been better explicated and backed than our previously undirected discourse. In order to continue this stimulation of conversation until a greater level of consensus and union of opinions is achieved, I would like to take this opportunity to counter a few of the arguments we have witnessed various members of side opposition delivering. Just like my previous input, allow me to offer two more points of rebuttle in order to demonstrate why proposition’s case still completely stands and how opposition’s case is falling:
Purpose of a screen reader – A major area of clash in this debate has been whether or not a feature such as screen dimming falls within the scope of a screen reader. To illustrate why side proposition firmly believes that it does, let us assess the history of mobile phones – originally designed to make phone calling and later text messaging more portable and ubiquitous, but today known for the quality of their cameras, ability to perform resource-intensive tasks, support for high-end gaming and what not. All modern phones conform to the basis standard of having calling and messaging options, but it is precisely the icings on the cake that distinguish one from the other. Let me show you how this analogy is absolutely applicable in the context of screen reading software too. While the strictest definition of a screen reader may simply be to read on-screen contents efficiently (as an opposition speaker has repeatedly asserted), popular screen readers, including NVDA, flaunt features such as audio ducking, mouse tracking, speech viewer, just to name a few, which, according to most interpretations, would probably not adhere to the restrictive and narrow definition provided by side opposition of the goals and contents of a screen reader. However, has that prevented any of these from being widely acclaimed, later borrowed, and frequently used elements of NVDA? In the modern world that we live in, a program or a product is not evaluated on its ability to merely perform its basic functions, but adjudicated on the basis of what else it can do to assist its target audience as a whole, i.e. the cheese may be taken for granted, for the toppings determine and contribute to the overall quality of a software product, particularly as we discuss screen dimming functionality for a screen reader.
Screen dimming alternative options – Members of side proposition have, on numerous occasions and by a host of statements, been advised to seek screen dimming functionality elsewhere, to the point where it has been declared that there are other reliable and universally functional methods of darkening the display. From what I have gathered, the few specific suggestions made are all inadequate in some or the other way; Projector Only or Second Screen Only in the Projector Settings dialog does not work with certain processors and graphic cards, particularly on Windows 10 (due to which I had to downgrade back to Windows 8.1), turning down the brightness in Windows to 0 only grays out the screen so much, still leaving a significant amount of visibility for shouldersurfers, and a few third party tools mentioned require that the computer be actually put on Sleep mode. All in all, no functional option for screen dimming has been presented so far. Having said that, even if such a third party tool is discovered, all our other arguments about including this feature in NVDA core shall remain pertinent and we will continue to advocate for having such capabilities integrated into the NVDA screen reader.
Thanks.

On 12/18/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io <mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> > wrote:
The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well.
Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down
systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link.
You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access
for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or
security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that
we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities
and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not
careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone
in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and
hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen.


Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop
paranoia which is sadly rife in places of work these days.
It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in
security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us.


I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well, in that many
many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces,
its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders
as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most
certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones
that go dark when you plug in a set of phones.

However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and
grab your cash!

Brian

bglists@... <mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@... <mailto:briang1@...> ,

Note to all this threads length is getting longer than the list allows
text

quoting wise, so trimmed some off.





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