Date   

Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

 

Well thats one thing we can agree on at least.

Everything is a really broad word.

Maybe everything at the current time, but not at all time.

Example.

When I started, I had braille, then a type writer then my first computer in 1993.

And for me everything such that it was was fine till I dropped it in 1996.

That system got updated with the latest dos software and such, and I also had my first windows computer.

In 2001 the dos box broke and it was really beyond what I could use it for anyway.

so was my windows system.

In 2003 I got another box which lasted till 2005 when it broke.

In 2005 I got another system which lasted till it broke, in 2009 I got another which lasted till it broke.

In 2011, I got my current system which has lasted and does everything I want to, but its probably time to move on sooner or later.

The point is everything doesn't mean it will be always there, its like the word nothing.

Ie there is nothing there but empty space, but the fact air exists or space means something does actually exist to someone's thinking.

Believe me each time I upgraded from dos to win95 then 98, They did everything I wanted than xp once I hit sp2-3 it did everything.

Now 7 does everything.

Then 10 will, and rumors are that win11 is coming out in 2 years.

Point is nothing lasts, and I won't say for ever because that is again to broad.

For ever in fact for a human is probably as short as 30-50 years or as is long as 100 years which is how long each of us has to live.

As for the future, for us right now that doesn't matter and neither will it matter for anyone else.

It will matter for that current time but not much more than that.

It is interesting how we humans trick ourselve into using broad words  for just about everything when if you really cut it down isn't really.

On 19/12/2017 8:10 a.m., Gene wrote:
You are using a variation of the slippery slope argument. If one thing is done, that will lead to catastrophe because everything will then be done. This fallacious slippery slope kind of argument is seldom correct because it assumes that people have no judgment and no appreciation of context. Slippery slope is listed as a logical fallacy, and with good reason.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Adriani Botez
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 12:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hey,

I must admit that I don't agree with you statement. Audio ducking and speech review, braille display features and so on are being made to to be able to read the screen in a proper way. This means that you get the information which is being displayed on a screen. We cannot let a screen reader to be a privacy tool. In this case, a screen reader could also clean up your registry and delete viruses and what not.

By the way, how about this?

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/3-quickest-ways-turn-computer-screen-windows/

The tools are very reliable.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Bhavya shah
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 17:40
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,
Both sides of the house have put up several fresh and compelling points which have been better explicated and backed than our previously undirected discourse. In order to continue this stimulation of conversation until a greater level of consensus and union of opinions is achieved, I would like to take this opportunity to counter a few of the arguments we have witnessed various members of side opposition delivering. Just like my previous input, allow me to offer two more points of rebuttle in order to demonstrate why proposition’s case still completely stands and how opposition’s case is falling:
Purpose of a screen reader – A major area of clash in this debate has been whether or not a feature such as screen dimming falls within the scope of a screen reader. To illustrate why side proposition firmly believes that it does, let us assess the history of mobile phones – originally designed to make phone calling and later text messaging more portable and ubiquitous, but today known for the quality of their cameras, ability to perform resource-intensive tasks, support for high-end gaming and what not. All modern phones conform to the basis standard of having calling and messaging options, but it is precisely the icings on the cake that distinguish one from the other. Let me show you how this analogy is absolutely applicable in the context of screen reading software too. While the strictest definition of a screen reader may simply be to read on-screen contents efficiently (as an opposition speaker has repeatedly asserted), popular screen readers, including NVDA, flaunt features such as audio ducking, mouse tracking, speech viewer, just to name a few, which, according to most interpretations, would probably not adhere to the restrictive and narrow definition provided by side opposition of the goals and contents of a screen reader. However, has that prevented any of these from being widely acclaimed, later borrowed, and frequently used elements of NVDA? In the modern world that we live in, a program or a product is not evaluated on its ability to merely perform its basic functions, but adjudicated on the basis of what else it can do to assist its target audience as a whole, i.e. the cheese may be taken for granted, for the toppings determine and contribute to the overall quality of a software product, particularly as we discuss screen dimming functionality for a screen reader.
Screen dimming alternative options – Members of side proposition have, on numerous occasions and by a host of statements, been advised to seek screen dimming functionality elsewhere, to the point where it has been declared that there are other reliable and universally functional methods of darkening the display. From what I have gathered, the few specific suggestions made are all inadequate in some or the other way; Projector Only or Second Screen Only in the Projector Settings dialog does not work with certain processors and graphic cards, particularly on Windows 10 (due to which I had to downgrade back to Windows 8.1), turning down the brightness in Windows to 0 only grays out the screen so much, still leaving a significant amount of visibility for shouldersurfers, and a few third party tools mentioned require that the computer be actually put on Sleep mode. All in all, no functional option for screen dimming has been presented so far. Having said that, even if such a third party tool is discovered, all our other arguments about including this feature in NVDA core shall remain pertinent and we will continue to advocate for having such capabilities integrated into the NVDA screen reader.
Thanks.

On 12/18/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well.
Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down
systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link.
You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access
for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or
security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that
we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities
and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not
careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone
in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and
hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen.


Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop
paranoia which is sadly rife in places of work these days.
It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in
security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us.


I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well, in that many
many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces,
its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders
as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most
certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones
that go dark when you plug in a set of phones.

However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and
grab your cash!

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@...,

Note to all this threads length is getting longer than the list allows
text

quoting wise, so trimmed some off.





--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@... Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91 7506221750








Re: competition

erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

It sounds as though people have a misunderstanding of how windows screen readers work.  The other guy relies very heavily on it's own add-ons, called scripts.  The difference is that the other guy comes with many more customizations pre-installed.  Of course, you pay for them all, whether you use them or not.  Thanks to all the jaws-wielding seniors who paid for visual studio and microsoft sharepoint support.  Enjoy. 

Add-ons, scripts, apps, extentions, and let's face it, windows screen readers in premis are old paradigm.  The fact that we're still forced to use them, whether by manual instalation or base configuration, is against good modern design.  The real answer of course is for software designers to comply with accessibility standards and conduct proper quality control  Until that happens, hard coding screen readers through proprietary measures are the only recourse.

The add-on store isn't a bad idea.  Base-installing more add-ons might also be convenient, although that has it's own set of problems.  Meanwhile, we have to be advocating modern new paradigm design against the looming day when third party screen readers are a thing of the past.

Best,

Erik

On December 18, 2017 12:40:12 PM "Mike and Jenna" <schwaltze@...> wrote:

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

 

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


 



--
Gera
Enviado desde
Thunderbird


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Adriani Botez
 

Well, then let’s take the dictation argument. Lots of people would use it and though it is not part of a screen reader because it is not meant to improve reading what is being displayed on a screen.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Gene
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 20:11
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

You are using a variation of the slippery slope argument.  If one thing is done, that will lead to catastrophe because everything will then be done.  This fallacious slippery slope kind of argument is seldom correct because it assumes that people have no judgment and no appreciation of context.  Slippery slope is listed as a logical fallacy, and with good reason. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 12:54 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

Hey,

I must admit that I don't agree with you statement. Audio ducking and speech review, braille display features and so on are being made to to be able to read the screen in a proper way. This means that you get the information which is being displayed on a screen. We cannot let a screen reader to be a privacy tool. In this case, a screen reader could also clean up your registry and delete viruses and what not.

By the way, how about this?

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/3-quickest-ways-turn-computer-screen-windows/

The tools are very reliable.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Bhavya shah
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 17:40
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,
Both sides of the house have put up several fresh and compelling points which have been better explicated and backed than our previously undirected discourse. In order to continue this stimulation of conversation until a greater level of consensus and union of opinions is achieved, I would like to take this opportunity to counter a few of the arguments we have witnessed various members of side opposition delivering. Just like my previous input, allow me to offer two more points of rebuttle in order to demonstrate why proposition’s case still completely stands and how opposition’s case is falling:
Purpose of a screen reader – A major area of clash in this debate has been whether or not a feature such as screen dimming falls within the scope of a screen reader. To illustrate why side proposition firmly believes that it does, let us assess the history of mobile phones – originally designed to make phone calling and later text messaging more portable and ubiquitous, but today known for the quality of their cameras, ability to perform resource-intensive tasks, support for high-end gaming and what not. All modern phones conform to the basis standard of having calling and messaging options, but it is precisely the icings on the cake that distinguish one from the other. Let me show you how this analogy is absolutely applicable in the context of screen reading software too. While the strictest definition of a screen reader may simply be to read on-screen contents efficiently (as an opposition speaker has repeatedly asserted), popular screen readers, including NVDA, flaunt features such as audio ducking, mouse tracking, speech viewer, just to name a few, which, according to most interpretations, would probably not adhere to the restrictive and narrow definition provided by side opposition of the goals and contents of a screen reader. However, has that prevented any of these from being widely acclaimed, later borrowed, and frequently used elements of NVDA? In the modern world that we live in, a program or a product is not evaluated on its ability to merely perform its basic functions, but adjudicated on the basis of what else it can do to assist its target audience as a whole, i.e. the cheese may be taken for granted, for the toppings determine and contribute to the overall quality of a software product, particularly as we discuss screen dimming functionality for a screen reader.
Screen dimming alternative options – Members of side proposition have, on numerous occasions and by a host of statements, been advised to seek screen dimming functionality elsewhere, to the point where it has been declared that there are other reliable and universally functional methods of darkening the display. From what I have gathered, the few specific suggestions made are all inadequate in some or the other way; Projector Only or Second Screen Only in the Projector Settings dialog does not work with certain processors and graphic cards, particularly on Windows 10 (due to which I had to downgrade back to Windows 8.1), turning down the brightness in Windows to 0 only grays out the screen so much, still leaving a significant amount of visibility for shouldersurfers, and a few third party tools mentioned require that the computer be actually put on Sleep mode. All in all, no functional option for screen dimming has been presented so far. Having said that, even if such a third party tool is discovered, all our other arguments about including this feature in NVDA core shall remain pertinent and we will continue to advocate for having such capabilities integrated into the NVDA screen reader.
Thanks.

On 12/18/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:
> The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well.
> Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down
> systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
>  In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link.
> You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access
> for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or
> security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that
> we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities
> and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not
> careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone
> in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and
> hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen.
>
>
> Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop
> paranoia  which is sadly rife in places of work these days.
>  It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in
> security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us.
>
>
> I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well,  in that many
> many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces,
> its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders
> as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most
> certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones
> that go dark when you plug in a set of phones.
>
>  However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and
> grab your cash!
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@...,
>
> Note to all this threads length is getting longer than the list allows
> text
>
> quoting wise, so trimmed some off.
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@... Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91 7506221750







Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Gene
 

You are using a variation of the slippery slope argument.  If one thing is done, that will lead to catastrophe because everything will then be done.  This fallacious slippery slope kind of argument is seldom correct because it assumes that people have no judgment and no appreciation of context.  Slippery slope is listed as a logical fallacy, and with good reason. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hey,

I must admit that I don't agree with you statement. Audio ducking and speech review, braille display features and so on are being made to to be able to read the screen in a proper way. This means that you get the information which is being displayed on a screen. We cannot let a screen reader to be a privacy tool. In this case, a screen reader could also clean up your registry and delete viruses and what not.

By the way, how about this?

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/3-quickest-ways-turn-computer-screen-windows/

The tools are very reliable.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Bhavya shah
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 17:40
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,
Both sides of the house have put up several fresh and compelling points which have been better explicated and backed than our previously undirected discourse. In order to continue this stimulation of conversation until a greater level of consensus and union of opinions is achieved, I would like to take this opportunity to counter a few of the arguments we have witnessed various members of side opposition delivering. Just like my previous input, allow me to offer two more points of rebuttle in order to demonstrate why proposition’s case still completely stands and how opposition’s case is falling:
Purpose of a screen reader – A major area of clash in this debate has been whether or not a feature such as screen dimming falls within the scope of a screen reader. To illustrate why side proposition firmly believes that it does, let us assess the history of mobile phones – originally designed to make phone calling and later text messaging more portable and ubiquitous, but today known for the quality of their cameras, ability to perform resource-intensive tasks, support for high-end gaming and what not. All modern phones conform to the basis standard of having calling and messaging options, but it is precisely the icings on the cake that distinguish one from the other. Let me show you how this analogy is absolutely applicable in the context of screen reading software too. While the strictest definition of a screen reader may simply be to read on-screen contents efficiently (as an opposition speaker has repeatedly asserted), popular screen readers, including NVDA, flaunt features such as audio ducking, mouse tracking, speech viewer, just to name a few, which, according to most interpretations, would probably not adhere to the restrictive and narrow definition provided by side opposition of the goals and contents of a screen reader. However, has that prevented any of these from being widely acclaimed, later borrowed, and frequently used elements of NVDA? In the modern world that we live in, a program or a product is not evaluated on its ability to merely perform its basic functions, but adjudicated on the basis of what else it can do to assist its target audience as a whole, i.e. the cheese may be taken for granted, for the toppings determine and contribute to the overall quality of a software product, particularly as we discuss screen dimming functionality for a screen reader.
Screen dimming alternative options – Members of side proposition have, on numerous occasions and by a host of statements, been advised to seek screen dimming functionality elsewhere, to the point where it has been declared that there are other reliable and universally functional methods of darkening the display. From what I have gathered, the few specific suggestions made are all inadequate in some or the other way; Projector Only or Second Screen Only in the Projector Settings dialog does not work with certain processors and graphic cards, particularly on Windows 10 (due to which I had to downgrade back to Windows 8.1), turning down the brightness in Windows to 0 only grays out the screen so much, still leaving a significant amount of visibility for shouldersurfers, and a few third party tools mentioned require that the computer be actually put on Sleep mode. All in all, no functional option for screen dimming has been presented so far. Having said that, even if such a third party tool is discovered, all our other arguments about including this feature in NVDA core shall remain pertinent and we will continue to advocate for having such capabilities integrated into the NVDA screen reader.
Thanks.

On 12/18/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:
> The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well.
> Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down
> systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
>  In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link.
> You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access
> for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or
> security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that
> we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities
> and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not
> careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone
> in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and
> hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen.
>
>
> Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop
> paranoia  which is sadly rife in places of work these days.
>  It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in
> security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us.
>
>
> I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well,  in that many
> many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces,
> its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders
> as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most
> certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones
> that go dark when you plug in a set of phones.
>
>  However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and
> grab your cash!
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@...,
>
> Note to all this threads length is getting longer than the list allows
> text
>
> quoting wise, so trimmed some off.
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@... Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91 7506221750








Re: screen shade

Gene
 

That's micromanaging to the point of diminishing returns.  For one thing, you don't know what the command will be so you don't know if you'll press it accidentally.  For another the screen orientation command you are talking about is an example of where an NVDA command clashes with another command, assuming you are talking about the clash between the read tables and screen orientation command.  there is no reason to assume or to worry that it will be at all likely that such a conflict will occur.  If such a feature is implemented as an add on or as an integration into NVDA, you are making far to much of a small potential and, I think, very unlikely problem.  NVDA plus something like f6  is not going to be a problem, for example. And as the add on is developed or the integration, users will have plenty of time to comment on such a conflict, if it occurs.  But this whole question of add on or integration would be meaningless if the add on were made a part of NVDA by supplying the add on with NVDA and if it is already running.  
 
Gene     

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] screen shade

I think no one would be against an addon for this. But I think most people would not want the developers to concentrate on integrating it into the core of NVDA since there are not many people who would use it regularly. An addon would be the best way because it gives the user the flexibility to install it if he or she needs it. Me personally, I don’t want to press that keystroke accidentally at work every day. I have to use lots of key strokes and I always have for example the problem in Microsoft Excel where I press a keystroke which changes the screen orientation. I press it accidentally but it iss annoying for the sighted people in our team who I work with. And I think there are many other users who would have this problem in certain situations.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Christo de Klerk
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 14:52
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] screen shade

 

I only need a screen shade occasionally and for short periods. Often sighted people also need to use my screen. What is wrong in controlling that by a hotkey rather than having to stick and remove a sheet of paper. Besides, I may be somewhere with my laptop where I don't have a handy sheet of paper at the ready. It seems like you guys who don't have a need for this feature are just not understanding that some of us do and that an add-on to do it would by far be the simplest. What skin would it be off your nose if someone created a little add-on for us misguided souls who want it? Yes, there are often several ways of achieving something, but some are more convenient than others. You don't have any idea of my personal circumstances and in my circumstances this feature would be handy and, besides, having it wouldn't make life more difficult for you in the slightest.       

On 2017/12/18 2:52 PM, Josh Kennedy wrote:

Instead of screen shade. Get a black piece of paper and put it over your screen. And voila, nobody can see your screen at all.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

 


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

Adriani Botez
 

Hey,

I must admit that I don't agree with you statement. Audio ducking and speech review, braille display features and so on are being made to to be able to read the screen in a proper way. This means that you get the information which is being displayed on a screen. We cannot let a screen reader to be a privacy tool. In this case, a screen reader could also clean up your registry and delete viruses and what not.

By the way, how about this?

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/3-quickest-ways-turn-computer-screen-windows/

The tools are very reliable.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Bhavya shah
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 17:40
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,
Both sides of the house have put up several fresh and compelling points which have been better explicated and backed than our previously undirected discourse. In order to continue this stimulation of conversation until a greater level of consensus and union of opinions is achieved, I would like to take this opportunity to counter a few of the arguments we have witnessed various members of side opposition delivering. Just like my previous input, allow me to offer two more points of rebuttle in order to demonstrate why proposition’s case still completely stands and how opposition’s case is falling:
Purpose of a screen reader – A major area of clash in this debate has been whether or not a feature such as screen dimming falls within the scope of a screen reader. To illustrate why side proposition firmly believes that it does, let us assess the history of mobile phones – originally designed to make phone calling and later text messaging more portable and ubiquitous, but today known for the quality of their cameras, ability to perform resource-intensive tasks, support for high-end gaming and what not. All modern phones conform to the basis standard of having calling and messaging options, but it is precisely the icings on the cake that distinguish one from the other. Let me show you how this analogy is absolutely applicable in the context of screen reading software too. While the strictest definition of a screen reader may simply be to read on-screen contents efficiently (as an opposition speaker has repeatedly asserted), popular screen readers, including NVDA, flaunt features such as audio ducking, mouse tracking, speech viewer, just to name a few, which, according to most interpretations, would probably not adhere to the restrictive and narrow definition provided by side opposition of the goals and contents of a screen reader. However, has that prevented any of these from being widely acclaimed, later borrowed, and frequently used elements of NVDA? In the modern world that we live in, a program or a product is not evaluated on its ability to merely perform its basic functions, but adjudicated on the basis of what else it can do to assist its target audience as a whole, i.e. the cheese may be taken for granted, for the toppings determine and contribute to the overall quality of a software product, particularly as we discuss screen dimming functionality for a screen reader.
Screen dimming alternative options – Members of side proposition have, on numerous occasions and by a host of statements, been advised to seek screen dimming functionality elsewhere, to the point where it has been declared that there are other reliable and universally functional methods of darkening the display. From what I have gathered, the few specific suggestions made are all inadequate in some or the other way; Projector Only or Second Screen Only in the Projector Settings dialog does not work with certain processors and graphic cards, particularly on Windows 10 (due to which I had to downgrade back to Windows 8.1), turning down the brightness in Windows to 0 only grays out the screen so much, still leaving a significant amount of visibility for shouldersurfers, and a few third party tools mentioned require that the computer be actually put on Sleep mode. All in all, no functional option for screen dimming has been presented so far. Having said that, even if such a third party tool is discovered, all our other arguments about including this feature in NVDA core shall remain pertinent and we will continue to advocate for having such capabilities integrated into the NVDA screen reader.
Thanks.

On 12/18/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well.
Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down
systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link.
You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access
for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or
security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that
we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities
and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not
careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone
in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and
hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen.


Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop
paranoia which is sadly rife in places of work these days.
It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in
security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us.


I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well, in that many
many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces,
its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders
as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most
certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones
that go dark when you plug in a set of phones.

However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and
grab your cash!

Brian

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Note to all this threads length is getting longer than the list allows
text

quoting wise, so trimmed some off.






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Re: screen curtain

Karim Lakhani <karim.lakhani@...>
 

That would be a lot easier then trying to make things harder for people who are busy trying to make NVDA useable for all.
Jaws has added a lot of bells and whistles to the screen reader and has out priced themselves out of reach for people who can't afford it.
Thanks to the NVDA team.
 
 
 
EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Josh Kennedy
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] screen curtain

Why do you need a screen curtain when the rest of the sighted world does not need or use a screen curtain? If you want a screen curtain just put a black piece of paper over your screen.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: screen shade

Adriani Botez
 

I think no one would be against an addon for this. But I think most people would not want the developers to concentrate on integrating it into the core of NVDA since there are not many people who would use it regularly. An addon would be the best way because it gives the user the flexibility to install it if he or she needs it. Me personally, I don’t want to press that keystroke accidentally at work every day. I have to use lots of key strokes and I always have for example the problem in Microsoft Excel where I press a keystroke which changes the screen orientation. I press it accidentally but it iss annoying for the sighted people in our team who I work with. And I think there are many other users who would have this problem in certain situations.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Christo de Klerk
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 14:52
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] screen shade

 

I only need a screen shade occasionally and for short periods. Often sighted people also need to use my screen. What is wrong in controlling that by a hotkey rather than having to stick and remove a sheet of paper. Besides, I may be somewhere with my laptop where I don't have a handy sheet of paper at the ready. It seems like you guys who don't have a need for this feature are just not understanding that some of us do and that an add-on to do it would by far be the simplest. What skin would it be off your nose if someone created a little add-on for us misguided souls who want it? Yes, there are often several ways of achieving something, but some are more convenient than others. You don't have any idea of my personal circumstances and in my circumstances this feature would be handy and, besides, having it wouldn't make life more difficult for you in the slightest.       


On 2017/12/18 2:52 PM, Josh Kennedy wrote:

Instead of screen shade. Get a black piece of paper and put it over your screen. And voila, nobody can see your screen at all.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

 


Re: screen shade

Adriani Botez
 

Screen orientation is important to be reported. For example if you press a certain keystroke in microsoft excel, the screen orientation changes. It is quite confusing when you work together with sighted people and accidentally press that keystroke. However, the change in orientation is not  trigered by nvda. 

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 18.12.2017 um 17:36 schrieb Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...>:

Ladies and gentlemen,

Looks like I lost after all, and in the process, felt tired and burnt out. I think it might be best to let the add-ons community take care of this and see what happens from there, similar to screen orientation announcement that was originally part of an add-on and now is part of NVDA.

Some concluding remarks from me (for now):

  • Alternatives are out there: some folks mentioned dimming the display (which won’t really solve this issue) and physical screen shade (which needs to be purchased).
  • Priorities: As pointed out by some, we developers have priorities to sort through. I, for instance, am asked by this community to produce the 2018 edition of my tutorials, and given my current state, it might be delayed somewhat. Mick Curran is investigating how to let NVDA talk to UIA better, and Reef is going through some bugs and enhancements at the moment. Jamie sent in a patch that’ll make Firefox 58 better for NVDA users, and Quentin is taking a holiday break. Given the effort needed for screen shade, coupled with what we developers are doing at the moment, I suggest that we let the add-ons community take care of this one.
  • Will screen shade increase NVDA’s popularity: as noted by another developer on an online chat, this debate shows the popular appeal for this feature. For some, it is a sound argument, but I think what makes a product popular isn’t inclusion of popular requests alone – stability, consistency, being faithful to its duties to a point where enterprise adoption can occur and what not.

P.S. Looks like I am not a good debater after all…

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Christo de Klerk
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 5:52 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] screen shade

 

I only need a screen shade occasionally and for short periods. Often sighted people also need to use my screen. What is wrong in controlling that by a hotkey rather than having to stick and remove a sheet of paper. Besides, I may be somewhere with my laptop where I don't have a handy sheet of paper at the ready. It seems like you guys who don't have a need for this feature are just not understanding that some of us do and that an add-on to do it would by far be the simplest. What skin would it be off your nose if someone created a little add-on for us misguided souls who want it? Yes, there are often several ways of achieving something, but some are more convenient than others. You don't have any idea of my personal circumstances and in my circumstances this feature would be handy and, besides, having it wouldn't make life more difficult for you in the slightest.       

On 2017/12/18 2:52 PM, Josh Kennedy wrote:

Instead of screen shade. Get a black piece of paper and put it over your screen. And voila, nobody can see your screen at all.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

 


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

Its a pitty that ms store in nz online only sells its products and nothing else.

On 19/12/2017 5:37 a.m., Kevin Chao wrote:
Microsoft Store has promos and great service, where they'll go into BIOS
and audio settings. They'll ensure it works well with screen reader. I've
had this experience a few times in the past with the Microsoft Store in San
Francisco and Palo Alto.


On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 3:47 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <
bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

I'm talking about small shops where you don't perhaps get the discounts
but they can be very helpful if you get a problem.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Antony Stone" <
antony.stone@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than
before


I didn't even realise it was possible to get a computer shop to change the
Bios in a new machine for you.

Are you talking about using Coreboot, or something else?

Antony.

On Monday 18 December 2017 at 11:46:28, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io wrote:

I have to say, I've failed too get one before the festivities, but yes,
Dell do build good Laptops. It is a shame they keep on doing daft things
on a laptop which at least is not for gaming or just entertainment. I can
see that unless I can get the shop to change the bios etc, and test the
screenreader the first few weeks is going to be hair pulling time. I know
a friend sat down with an IT man from his local school for two hours,
most
of that time was taking off crap, putting Microsoft drivers back to
default and reconfiguring sensible defaults.
Brian
--
You can tell that the day just isn't going right when you find yourself
using
the telephone before the toilet.

Please reply to the
list;
please *don't* CC
me.





Re: screen shade

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

I agree with you.

I have not seen a sighted person use a device with the screen off on any device.

You ask any sighted person to use the computer with say sound and only the screen reader and the screen turned off and they are lost.

I my self would not even do any type of banking or sensitive stuff on a public computer just because of security I would want to hope it was really locked down.
And that would be even with a blacked out screen.
I would still not go there on public terminal.
 
Been in a home situation I would not have a need for it who is going to look my wife? or may be people just do not want people to know they could be looking at one of those .aughty websites.

  At home off goes the button on the monitor and then the wife if she wants it just turns it on.


Gene nz

On 12/19/2017 2:03 AM, ely.r@... wrote:

Good idea!

I have to wonder what people are writing on their computers in what I assume is a public area that they do not want others to see. If someone has full vision, one would assume that they have their screen turned on so they can both read and write. If so, then it is likely that they will not be writing highly sensitive things that others might see as they walk by. Sorry if this seems insensitive, but. . .

Rick

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Josh Kennedy
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 7:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] screen shade

 

Instead of screen shade. Get a black piece of paper and put it over your screen. And voila, nobody can see your screen at all.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: choosing a new computer

 

You shouldn't just get rid of every driver though.

Some of it is for hardware for the system, some are extra programs, you shouldn't just go and well get rid of everything.

In most systems mcafee, office, wild tangent etc.

Get rid of those and a few extras, you have the display and sound which I usually update.

Then I scroll through the apps, see what is usefull, see what isn't.

Remove a few things from startup.

If you blanketly clear everything you are liable to loose something important.

On 19/12/2017 1:50 a.m., Josh Kennedy wrote:
Hi
There is a much easier way to get rid of all new computer junkware and drivers at once.
1. Go into settings.
2. Go into update and security.
3. Go into recovery.
4. Click the link that says learn more about resetting this pc.
5. Click yes to open windows defender security center when windows asks.
6. Click get started and follow directions to wipe out all that junkware and have a nice fresh reinstalled and cleaned up and fully updated windows.
Josh


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

 

As for working in a public place, don't bank on a public network or in a hotel or anything that moniters, such as at work.

You just remember you are in a public place, you don't randomly bank in the middle of the street unless there is a bank, there are probably other examples, but if we treated the net as another world or an extention of the real world then we wouldn't have a problem.

The issue is we don't and suddenly think we are immune from things in general.

Ofcause text as a medium while fast sucks for adiquit communication.

On 19/12/2017 12:03 a.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well. Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link.
You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen.


Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop paranoia  which is sadly rife in places of work these days.
It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us.


I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well,  in that many many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces, its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones that go dark when you plug in a set of phones.

However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and grab your cash!

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Lee" <@joslee>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hi,
In the current digital age, privacy is something we think can be guaranteed at all costs. However, I and some of us argue that this isn't. I do understand that shouldersurfing is a problem, but it is just one form of breaching privacy, with others being remote access, keystroke logging and what not. For example, with help from Remote Support add-on, a user may listen in on remote conversations (as in what NVDA is saying) or keystrokes. Similarly, NVDA itself can inject and intercept messages from other apps if given appropriate privileges. Given the evidence before us, I believe the topicality of including other possibilities is justified (topicality means if a topic is in scope or not for a debate).
As for screen shade being a screen reader feature and proposition that it bridges the gap between sighted and the blind: the overall purpose of a screen reader is to present screen information in an efficient manner. Given that definition, because screen shade is designed to "improve privacy by presenting what appears to be a blank screen so sighted folks cannot look over their shoulders", and screen reading and privacy are two separate fields, I argue that this argument does not hold. Although some may say that both fields are related - in that screen readers can announce private information presented, when looking at mechanics of these concepts and products, they are still two different things. Although a screen shade could guarantee privacy, due to the nature of screen readers and their internals, a screen shade won't truly bridge the gap between blind and sighted people as far as privacy is concerned.
Borrowing features from other screen readers: I do understand that screen readers did borrow features from one another. For example, JAWS's touch cursor is NVDA's object navigation, and on Windows 10, NVDA includes OCR feature. These features fulfill the purpose of screen readers: access to information on display. But there are costs: misuse of gold standards and loss of distinctiveness. If we follow a gold standard blindly, especially if a standard turns out to be faulty, developers will find themselves fixing standards later with more costs involved than implementing this standard in the past. IN regards to distinctiveness, one dimension of competition is distinctive appeal; with screen readers boasting similar features, people will need to dive deeper to find out differences between products. In case of screen shade and borrowing features from others, because of the purpose of screen reading versus privacy tool, it won't make sense to say that we can just borrow features from others.
Possible use as a development module: one thing the affirmative did not bring up was screen shade's possible utility as a development assistance module. For the scope of this debate, topicality does not hold, and also because such a tool already exists in the form of an add-on.
Overall, our contentions are:
1. Purpose of a screen reader: just read whatever is presented versus act as a privacy guarantee tool.
2. Private information display: display versus other forms of output.
3. User experience: read what's out there versus go one step further and shield users from shouldersurfers.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bhavya shah
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,
As a proponent of a screen shade like functionality in NVDA, let me offer some points of proposition as well as some rebuttle in this ongoing debate:
In this increasingly digitized, computerized and electronic era, privacy, for absolutely any and all users, has become a key focus area for software products. Extremely personal and confidential information is stored and accessed on laptop and desktop computers at school, workplace or other public settings. Would it be permissible for blind and visually impaired computer users be left vulnerable to sighted shouldersurfers – those with sight who peep literally over a blind individual’s shoulders to surreptitiously follow his/her activities?
Side proposition is here to demonstrate to you how the proposed feature is very much relevant for a screen reader and can prove vital in significantly improving the privacy of a screen reader user. Before introducing our substantives though, I would like to offer two points of rebuttle on the basis of what we have already heard from side opposition.
Legitimacy of the privacy argument- Shouldersurfing is a potential risk manifold amplified in case of a blind person since he/she has no way of detecting this. As a result, it is imperative that the computer screen itself do something to resolve this huge loophole in a VI user’s computer usage experience. Thus, since a screen reader’s function and philosophy is to bridge the gap between the blind consumer and the computer screen, and along the way, do whatever it can to arm the consumer with the tools required to achieve equivalent efficiency, privacy and usability as its sighted counterpart, side proposition maintains that screen dimming is of substantial use in the context of visually impaired computer users, and we view inclusion of other methods of privacy invasions such as remote access Trojans, speech synthesis (which, with experience, is often cranked up to a rate unintelligible to the average human), etc., in the present debate and discussion, as digressions on the part of side opposition for all these techniques are dissimilar to shouldersurfing, the problem screen dimming intends to fix, in that they are not exclusive to the blind and thus do not warrant the intervention of a screen reader.
Inspiration for this feature request – Screen readers, and software in general, often borrow and lend ideas and concepts for features and functionalities. While basing a proposal to one screen reader primarily on the premise that other screen readers showcase it is not constructive, using it as a supporting argument, particularly by citing its reception among its user base, is, we believe, valid and justified. As iss the case with screen dimming, a multitude of other usage scenarios, justifications and reasoning in favour of this proposal have already been provided, and inspiration from other screen readers plays the role of only a supporting argument.
On second thought, I suppose it might be more fruitful to allow side opposition to respond to the above provided points of rebuttle before I proceed towards side proposition’s substantives, which, more or less, are already out there for review and simply require a cohesive summarization.
Thanks.
P.S. Let us have a constructive point-by-point debate on this topic spiritedly like we have had so far. :)

On 12/18/17, enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@...> wrote:
however joseph, This fact doesn't change the fact that 99% of sighted
people cannot breach the screen privacy features of screen readers.
Heck, I used to turn on keyboard help to prevent people from pressing
keys when I was away from my pc. A sighted person is extremely
unlikely to know how to re-enable the screen. Most users, unless they
are advanced users, are totally hopeless when they cannot see the screen.


On 12/18/2017 5:20 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Rebuttal: privacy these days is something you don’t really “see”.
Take advanced malware, for example that can take a look at what
you’re doing without raising suspicion and no need to keep the monitor on.
That’s the point I’m getting at. Screen shade is just one piece;
others are user attitude, programs (both good and bad), and the
target or info one is looking at.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf
Of *David Moore
*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 5:52 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

I did not think about the fact that a sighted person can look over
their shoulder for prying eyes.

That is a great point! Good come back LOL!

I like good debates and discussions, because I just learned something
right there!

David Moore

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows 10

*From: *Kevin Chao <mailto:kevinchao89@...>
*Sent: *Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:40 PM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Screen shade is useful for protecting confidential work information,
which we may not know about prying eyes, and a sighted person can see
when someone is looking over their shoulders.

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:27 PM Gene <gsasner@...
<mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

    As far as I know you can't just turn off the screen in the Windows
    settings and doing so may cause you real trouble if you can do
    it.  If you unexpectedly need sighted assistance, to deal with
    some sort of maintenance or performance problem, the screen should
    be on.

    The screen shade has the advantage that the screen is still on and
    a sighted person can work with the machine if needed.

    Gene

    ----- Original Message -----

    *From:*David Moore <mailto:jesusloves1966@...>

    *Sent:*Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:02 PM

    *To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

    *Subject:*Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

    I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that
    many people will really need, and will help them do a job. Many
    features in some screen readers are just not needed. You do not
    need a feature to do searches for you, when you can do a Google
    search. You don’t need this screen shade, because you can just
    turn off your screen in the Windows settings.

    I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.

    It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for
    someone to be employed. We need screen readers to help people work
    many jobs, that should be the first importance. Next,
    intertainment uses need to be accessible with a screen reader. If
    you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!

    NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I
    am so glad it doesn’t.

    It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to
    install JAWS, and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.

    David Moore

    Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
    for Windows 10

    *From: *Gene New Zealand <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>
    *Sent: *Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
    *To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
    *Subject: *Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

    Hi

    I agree with Joseph.

    There might be things from other screen readers we might use or
    might not use so I would rather the developers concentrate on
    screen reader features that help.

    if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that
    way if one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.

    then down the track it could be added like you see with some
    addons that code gets added to the core of nvda.

    Gene nz

    On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:

        well fare enough,   but I still think it should be in the core
        one day in nvda.   if you don't want to use it then fare
        enough but I feel this is a feature for us blind screen reader
        users that is needed and would be a good thing for nvda to
        have built in.

        On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:

            Hi,
            Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
            As for my justification statement: like some in the
            community, I believe that NVDA's purpose is screen
            reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on screen reading,
            with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do
            understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the
            one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from experience
            that just following the lead of another screen reader just
            because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with.
            Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot
            guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of
            breaching it, including sounds, speech, remote access,
            data sharing and many others.
            Cheers,
            Joseph

            -----Original Message-----
            From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
            [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick
            via Groups.Io
            Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
            To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
            Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

            it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little
            program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't
            work. I think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just
            to say that you won't consider it if people say other
            screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

            On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:

                Hi,
                Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
                Cheers,
                Joseph

                -----Original Message-----
                From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
                [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
                Didier Colle
                Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
                To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
                Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

                Hi Joseeph,


                Thanks for the clarification.


                Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy.
                But why not simply switching off the screen (power
                button on an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or
                similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have
                both advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the
                energy saving.


                I agree with the rest.

                If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is
                more worth
                investing in an add-on that can report the status of
                the screen
                (backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal
                is send), a bit
                like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


                Kind Regards,


                Didier


                On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:

                    Hi,
                    As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain
                    shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is
                    used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader
                    users. Note the quotation marks around
                    "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee
                    privacy, as there are means to circumvent this
                    (speech output, braille displays, remote access,
                    etc.).
                       From what I can gather, this function does not
                    result in extended battery life nor power savings.
                    When this function is turned on, an overlay window
                    is imposed on top of other windows, and turning
                    this off removes this overlay. As I said above,
                    this does not provide privacy as many of you may
                    think.
                    As for this being part of a screen reader: my
                    overall opinion is that it should not. If people
                    want it, then I think an add-on would be a more
                    appropriate solution. Only after looking at
                    justifications and costs should developers
                    consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and
                    personally for me, a justification that goes along
                    the lines of, "because another screen reader has
                    this" is something I won't even consider.
                    Cheers,
                    Joseph

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
                    <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
                    [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
                    Didier Colle
                    Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
                    To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
                    Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

                    Hi all,


                    I am not sure what this functionality is exactly
                    about.

                    When it is about switching off / dimming the
                    monitor, I do not understand why it would not save
                    on battery....

                    The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet,
                    smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power
                    sinks in such systems.


                    On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between
                    laptops) use Fn+f7
                    for switching between different display modes
                    (signal send only to
                    laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor
                    only or signal send
                    to
                    both) or
                    Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it
                    up.When I am on
                    Fn+battery
                    power for a long time, I dim the backlight with
                    Fn+f5 to save battery.

                    Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that,
                    although such add-on may
                    be useful to read the status of the screen (to
                    which monitor is the
                    signal send, on what level is the backlight). I
                    have no clue whether
                    windows has access to such info, let alone it
                    provides an api to
                    request that info (it might be the case that on
                    some laptops this is
                    a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to
                    windows).


                    Once again, I am not sure what this functionality
                    is supposed to be
                    exactly, and thus I may be speaking about
                    something completely different.


                    Kind regards,


                    Didier


                    On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via
                    Groups.Io wrote:

                        From what I know about Windows and indeed most
                        screenreaders, this
                        function is just for privacy, ie its not going
                        to save any battery.
                        If that is what you want then I'd have thought
                        it was possible to do
                        it, kind of like a screensaver that never
                        actually loses focus but
                        then you need to be able to tell nvda that you
                        want it to use the
                        invisible window not the visible one.

                        In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
                        Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a
                        desktop is called the
                        monitor off switch..... ahem.

                        Brian

                        bglists@...
<mailto:bglists@...>
                        Sent via blueyonder.
                        Please address personal email to:-
                        briang1@...
<mailto:briang1@...>, putting
                        'Brian Gaff'
                        in the display name field.
                        ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
                        <kevinchao89@...>
                        <mailto:kevinchao89@...>
                        To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
                        <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
                        Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
                        Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

                            Hi,

                            VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature
                            for a long while and JAWS
                            recently got screen shade.

                            Does NVDA have a similar feature via an
                            add-on or natively?
                            Thanks!











    --

    Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness
    related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless
    of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK
    sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their
    computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to
    you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
    (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified
    expert near you, please visit the following link
    https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page
    contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from
    around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA
    expert exam.


--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@... Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91 7506221750









Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

 

I agree, and as for privacy, security concerns removed, a lot of our information is stored on government systems, a lot of what we do is stored somewhere else, so focus should be on large servers, cloud systems, government systems and other things.

As for privacy with all our online shopping, social networks etc, I suspect the net knows more about us than we know about ourselves its a bit mute at this point.

If we didn't want to be known we whouldn't use the net but even if we don't our info is digitally stored somewhere that we share, everyone spies on everyone else, and with good reason, there are a lot of bad people.

You just hope that your government that can probably get access to your phone or anything if they want keeps its information secure or is not corrupted like a failed ram stick.

Sadly the world is fulled of corrupted governments and security issues, even in new zealand where we don't officially have corruption, there have been to many security breaches, usually having to do with overloading the systems but still, there is so much put into security and privacy I think we have lost the plot.

I have friends working in the health and educational industries though and they are still analog.

They actually think privacy exists as it was in the 90s.

Privacy and security are dead at least for the small user, at any rate, the only reason a hacker will get a small user is for a laugh.

There is no money in it for a hacker to hit a small user unless all he wants is change, its the big banks and others that need the power, thats why we have email protection on the servers.

And at any rate, we really should have protection before we get the content unless you go and ask for something from a dodgy site and even then there are ways round that to.

Windows broadcasts information everywhere.

And while not everyone knows where I live, I broadcast my city, and country readily.

My address and phone number are public record as well as my identity, and if you know my bank account number or at least part of it.

There is vary little that is truely protected.

The only thing you should be concerned about are your passwords, those are important, but after studdying business law there is a lot of stuff we standard humans think we have rights to.

And to be honest most of our information is not private at all.

And with the digital age we share more or less what we have left out.

Now there is certainly information that should be private, but there isn't that much in the grand scheme of things anymore at least for us.

On 19/12/2017 12:03 a.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
The problem is one that can be levelled at other software as well. Take the Edge Quantum and Windows 10S issues of trying to lock down systems to stop naughty people hacking them via screenreaders or any other means.
In the real world unfortunately its the human who is the weak link.
You simply need to draw a line in the sand and say equality of access for blind or anyone else is the guiding factor, not privacy or security. There is no such thing as total security, as anything that we can design can be reverse engineered to find its vulnerabilities and I think we are now close to that very point where, if we are not careful all our hard fought gains in the access world will be undone in the push toward the holy Braille of unhackable software and hardware. Dream on if you believe this is ever going to happen.


Thus some realism needs to happen in the world and an attempt to stop paranoia  which is sadly rife in places of work these days.
It could be argued that the current trend toward small gains in security at our expense is in fact discrimination against us.


I continue the thought about paranoia to us as well,  in that many many sighted people leave their computers logged in in public spaces, its just our tendency to suppose that people look over our shoulders as we cannot know if they are doing so or not of course. it most certainly has happened at ATM machines before the current crop of ones that go dark when you plug in a set of phones.

However while wearing your phones, somebody could just sneak up and grab your cash!

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Lee" <@joslee>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hi,
In the current digital age, privacy is something we think can be guaranteed at all costs. However, I and some of us argue that this isn't. I do understand that shouldersurfing is a problem, but it is just one form of breaching privacy, with others being remote access, keystroke logging and what not. For example, with help from Remote Support add-on, a user may listen in on remote conversations (as in what NVDA is saying) or keystrokes. Similarly, NVDA itself can inject and intercept messages from other apps if given appropriate privileges. Given the evidence before us, I believe the topicality of including other possibilities is justified (topicality means if a topic is in scope or not for a debate).
As for screen shade being a screen reader feature and proposition that it bridges the gap between sighted and the blind: the overall purpose of a screen reader is to present screen information in an efficient manner. Given that definition, because screen shade is designed to "improve privacy by presenting what appears to be a blank screen so sighted folks cannot look over their shoulders", and screen reading and privacy are two separate fields, I argue that this argument does not hold. Although some may say that both fields are related - in that screen readers can announce private information presented, when looking at mechanics of these concepts and products, they are still two different things. Although a screen shade could guarantee privacy, due to the nature of screen readers and their internals, a screen shade won't truly bridge the gap between blind and sighted people as far as privacy is concerned.
Borrowing features from other screen readers: I do understand that screen readers did borrow features from one another. For example, JAWS's touch cursor is NVDA's object navigation, and on Windows 10, NVDA includes OCR feature. These features fulfill the purpose of screen readers: access to information on display. But there are costs: misuse of gold standards and loss of distinctiveness. If we follow a gold standard blindly, especially if a standard turns out to be faulty, developers will find themselves fixing standards later with more costs involved than implementing this standard in the past. IN regards to distinctiveness, one dimension of competition is distinctive appeal; with screen readers boasting similar features, people will need to dive deeper to find out differences between products. In case of screen shade and borrowing features from others, because of the purpose of screen reading versus privacy tool, it won't make sense to say that we can just borrow features from others.
Possible use as a development module: one thing the affirmative did not bring up was screen shade's possible utility as a development assistance module. For the scope of this debate, topicality does not hold, and also because such a tool already exists in the form of an add-on.
Overall, our contentions are:
1. Purpose of a screen reader: just read whatever is presented versus act as a privacy guarantee tool.
2. Private information display: display versus other forms of output.
3. User experience: read what's out there versus go one step further and shield users from shouldersurfers.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bhavya shah
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,
As a proponent of a screen shade like functionality in NVDA, let me offer some points of proposition as well as some rebuttle in this ongoing debate:
In this increasingly digitized, computerized and electronic era, privacy, for absolutely any and all users, has become a key focus area for software products. Extremely personal and confidential information is stored and accessed on laptop and desktop computers at school, workplace or other public settings. Would it be permissible for blind and visually impaired computer users be left vulnerable to sighted shouldersurfers – those with sight who peep literally over a blind individual’s shoulders to surreptitiously follow his/her activities?
Side proposition is here to demonstrate to you how the proposed feature is very much relevant for a screen reader and can prove vital in significantly improving the privacy of a screen reader user. Before introducing our substantives though, I would like to offer two points of rebuttle on the basis of what we have already heard from side opposition.
Legitimacy of the privacy argument- Shouldersurfing is a potential risk manifold amplified in case of a blind person since he/she has no way of detecting this. As a result, it is imperative that the computer screen itself do something to resolve this huge loophole in a VI user’s computer usage experience. Thus, since a screen reader’s function and philosophy is to bridge the gap between the blind consumer and the computer screen, and along the way, do whatever it can to arm the consumer with the tools required to achieve equivalent efficiency, privacy and usability as its sighted counterpart, side proposition maintains that screen dimming is of substantial use in the context of visually impaired computer users, and we view inclusion of other methods of privacy invasions such as remote access Trojans, speech synthesis (which, with experience, is often cranked up to a rate unintelligible to the average human), etc., in the present debate and discussion, as digressions on the part of side opposition for all these techniques are dissimilar to shouldersurfing, the problem screen dimming intends to fix, in that they are not exclusive to the blind and thus do not warrant the intervention of a screen reader.
Inspiration for this feature request – Screen readers, and software in general, often borrow and lend ideas and concepts for features and functionalities. While basing a proposal to one screen reader primarily on the premise that other screen readers showcase it is not constructive, using it as a supporting argument, particularly by citing its reception among its user base, is, we believe, valid and justified. As iss the case with screen dimming, a multitude of other usage scenarios, justifications and reasoning in favour of this proposal have already been provided, and inspiration from other screen readers plays the role of only a supporting argument.
On second thought, I suppose it might be more fruitful to allow side opposition to respond to the above provided points of rebuttle before I proceed towards side proposition’s substantives, which, more or less, are already out there for review and simply require a cohesive summarization.
Thanks.
P.S. Let us have a constructive point-by-point debate on this topic spiritedly like we have had so far. :)

On 12/18/17, enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@...> wrote:
however joseph, This fact doesn't change the fact that 99% of sighted
people cannot breach the screen privacy features of screen readers.
Heck, I used to turn on keyboard help to prevent people from pressing
keys when I was away from my pc. A sighted person is extremely
unlikely to know how to re-enable the screen. Most users, unless they
are advanced users, are totally hopeless when they cannot see the screen.


On 12/18/2017 5:20 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Rebuttal: privacy these days is something you don’t really “see”.
Take advanced malware, for example that can take a look at what
you’re doing without raising suspicion and no need to keep the monitor on.
That’s the point I’m getting at. Screen shade is just one piece;
others are user attitude, programs (both good and bad), and the
target or info one is looking at.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf
Of *David Moore
*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 5:52 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

I did not think about the fact that a sighted person can look over
their shoulder for prying eyes.

That is a great point! Good come back LOL!

I like good debates and discussions, because I just learned something
right there!

David Moore

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows 10

*From: *Kevin Chao <mailto:kevinchao89@...>
*Sent: *Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:40 PM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Screen shade is useful for protecting confidential work information,
which we may not know about prying eyes, and a sighted person can see
when someone is looking over their shoulders.

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:27 PM Gene <gsasner@...
<mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

    As far as I know you can't just turn off the screen in the Windows
    settings and doing so may cause you real trouble if you can do
    it.  If you unexpectedly need sighted assistance, to deal with
    some sort of maintenance or performance problem, the screen should
    be on.

    The screen shade has the advantage that the screen is still on and
    a sighted person can work with the machine if needed.

    Gene

    ----- Original Message -----

    *From:*David Moore <mailto:jesusloves1966@...>

    *Sent:*Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:02 PM

    *To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

    *Subject:*Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

    I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that
    many people will really need, and will help them do a job. Many
    features in some screen readers are just not needed. You do not
    need a feature to do searches for you, when you can do a Google
    search. You don’t need this screen shade, because you can just
    turn off your screen in the Windows settings.

    I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.

    It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for
    someone to be employed. We need screen readers to help people work
    many jobs, that should be the first importance. Next,
    intertainment uses need to be accessible with a screen reader. If
    you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!

    NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I
    am so glad it doesn’t.

    It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to
    install JAWS, and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.

    David Moore

    Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
    for Windows 10

    *From: *Gene New Zealand <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>
    *Sent: *Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
    *To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
    *Subject: *Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

    Hi

    I agree with Joseph.

    There might be things from other screen readers we might use or
    might not use so I would rather the developers concentrate on
    screen reader features that help.

    if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that
    way if one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.

    then down the track it could be added like you see with some
    addons that code gets added to the core of nvda.

    Gene nz

    On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:

        well fare enough,   but I still think it should be in the core
        one day in nvda.   if you don't want to use it then fare
        enough but I feel this is a feature for us blind screen reader
        users that is needed and would be a good thing for nvda to
        have built in.

        On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:

            Hi,
            Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
            As for my justification statement: like some in the
            community, I believe that NVDA's purpose is screen
            reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on screen reading,
            with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do
            understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the
            one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from experience
            that just following the lead of another screen reader just
            because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with.
            Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot
            guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of
            breaching it, including sounds, speech, remote access,
            data sharing and many others.
            Cheers,
            Joseph

            -----Original Message-----
            From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
            [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick
            via Groups.Io
            Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
            To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
            Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

            it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little
            program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't
            work. I think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just
            to say that you won't consider it if people say other
            screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

            On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:

                Hi,
                Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
                Cheers,
                Joseph

                -----Original Message-----
                From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
                [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
                Didier Colle
                Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
                To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
                Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

                Hi Joseeph,


                Thanks for the clarification.


                Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy.
                But why not simply switching off the screen (power
                button on an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or
                similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have
                both advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the
                energy saving.


                I agree with the rest.

                If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is
                more worth
                investing in an add-on that can report the status of
                the screen
                (backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal
                is send), a bit
                like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


                Kind Regards,


                Didier


                On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:

                    Hi,
                    As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain
                    shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is
                    used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader
                    users. Note the quotation marks around
                    "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee
                    privacy, as there are means to circumvent this
                    (speech output, braille displays, remote access,
                    etc.).
                       From what I can gather, this function does not
                    result in extended battery life nor power savings.
                    When this function is turned on, an overlay window
                    is imposed on top of other windows, and turning
                    this off removes this overlay. As I said above,
                    this does not provide privacy as many of you may
                    think.
                    As for this being part of a screen reader: my
                    overall opinion is that it should not. If people
                    want it, then I think an add-on would be a more
                    appropriate solution. Only after looking at
                    justifications and costs should developers
                    consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and
                    personally for me, a justification that goes along
                    the lines of, "because another screen reader has
                    this" is something I won't even consider.
                    Cheers,
                    Joseph

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
                    <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
                    [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
                    Didier Colle
                    Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
                    To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
                    Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

                    Hi all,


                    I am not sure what this functionality is exactly
                    about.

                    When it is about switching off / dimming the
                    monitor, I do not understand why it would not save
                    on battery....

                    The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet,
                    smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power
                    sinks in such systems.


                    On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between
                    laptops) use Fn+f7
                    for switching between different display modes
                    (signal send only to
                    laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor
                    only or signal send
                    to
                    both) or
                    Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it
                    up.When I am on
                    Fn+battery
                    power for a long time, I dim the backlight with
                    Fn+f5 to save battery.

                    Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that,
                    although such add-on may
                    be useful to read the status of the screen (to
                    which monitor is the
                    signal send, on what level is the backlight). I
                    have no clue whether
                    windows has access to such info, let alone it
                    provides an api to
                    request that info (it might be the case that on
                    some laptops this is
                    a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to
                    windows).


                    Once again, I am not sure what this functionality
                    is supposed to be
                    exactly, and thus I may be speaking about
                    something completely different.


                    Kind regards,


                    Didier


                    On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via
                    Groups.Io wrote:

                        From what I know about Windows and indeed most
                        screenreaders, this
                        function is just for privacy, ie its not going
                        to save any battery.
                        If that is what you want then I'd have thought
                        it was possible to do
                        it, kind of like a screensaver that never
                        actually loses focus but
                        then you need to be able to tell nvda that you
                        want it to use the
                        invisible window not the visible one.

                        In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
                        Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a
                        desktop is called the
                        monitor off switch..... ahem.

                        Brian

                        bglists@...
<mailto:bglists@...>
                        Sent via blueyonder.
                        Please address personal email to:-
                        briang1@...
<mailto:briang1@...>, putting
                        'Brian Gaff'
                        in the display name field.
                        ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
                        <kevinchao89@...>
                        <mailto:kevinchao89@...>
                        To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
                        <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
                        Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
                        Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

                            Hi,

                            VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature
                            for a long while and JAWS
                            recently got screen shade.

                            Does NVDA have a similar feature via an
                            add-on or natively?
                            Thanks!











    --

    Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness
    related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless
    of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK
    sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their
    computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to
    you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
    (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified
    expert near you, please visit the following link
    https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page
    contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from
    around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA
    expert exam.


--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@... Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91 7506221750









Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

Yeah its the same with other drivers, I always end up removing unneded programs, and updating drivers, sound and display are never the latest mainly the rest I get from their website but my plan is either hp which seem to be fine or gigabyte because of their massive memmory they do use soundblaster effects which I am familiar with.

On 18/12/2017 11:46 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
I have to say, I've failed too get one before the festivities, but yes, Dell do build good Laptops. It is a shame they keep on doing daft things on a laptop which at least is not for gaming or just entertainment. I can see that unless I can get the shop to change the bios etc, and test the screenreader the first few weeks is going to be hair pulling time.
I know a friend sat down with an IT man from his local school for two hours, most of that time was taking off crap, putting Microsoft drivers back to default and reconfiguring sensible defaults.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao" <kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before


This thread has been very relevant for me recently, as I was looking for a
good business-grade Windows laptop. I tried the LeNovo ThinkPad via Amazon,
but sent it back, and picked-up Dell XPS 9360 from Microsoft Store
yesterday.

The 2 issues that I experienced are with the Realtek audio and media keys.
Fortunately, it was possible to sort the former by turning off the sound
effects/enhancements and have latter solved via BIOS set to use standard
function keys.

I was unpleasantly surprised that these were issues on a vanilla Windows
machine from Microsoft, but glad that it’s possible to set these normally.

This is my second XPS I had, first was in 2009, now again in 2017—very well
built, great keyboard, light, fast.

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io <
the.big.white.shepherd=googlemail.com@groups.io> wrote:

I use one and have no problems,   I can't think of any tips it just
works.   it is the pro4 I hear there on surface Pro5 now.

On 07/12/2017 01:45, Don H wrote:

Any positive or negative comments concerning NVDA on a Microsoft Surface
Pro along with its available keyboard?







.


Re: competition

Mike and Jenna <schwaltze@...>
 

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

 

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


 



-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird


Re: competition

Mike and Jenna <schwaltze@...>
 

Hi,

 

Maybe nvaccess could come up with something like the windoweyes store that would run inside of nvda. If that was the case more people would know about the addons and be able to use the addons. The problem is right now you can download addons from any ware and install them which could still be the case with this implementation. Their could be a checkbox to allow apps or addons from unknown sources. By having the store it would make it easier for people and also allow people to use addons that have been approved by nvaccess even at work.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rui Fontes
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


 


Re: screen shade

Bhavya shah
 

Hi Joseph,
No, you are a fine debater, just that the relative weightage of
proposition's points coupled with the popular support in favour of the
screen dimming functionality tilted opinions one way. The motion and
the spectators are two things that are usually balanced and neutral,
setting up the stage for a competitive debate, but such was not the
case in our situation.
Having said all that, since we haven't been comprehensively shown one
functional software-based screen shade that works across all our
Windows systems without exception with the same amount of ease as the
conceptualized and requested screen dimming functionality integrated
into NVDA, that aspect remains unresolved. As far as my understanding
goes, since priorities for a project revolve around what the user
demand is, I find it very much possible that a flood of interest
expressed in the ability to dim the screen could very well trigger a
change in NVDA development priorities. Since I truly believe that the
quality and popularity of a product can be ascertained only by how
well it is able to continually satisfy the user, the consumer, the
customer, the king, any highly requested feature ought to be given due
attention.
I think it is important to be brave in defending your beliefs, and
that is what many of us have done today.
Thanks.

On 12/18/17, Joseph Lee <@joslee> wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen,

Looks like I lost after all, and in the process, felt tired and burnt out. I
think it might be best to let the add-ons community take care of this and
see what happens from there, similar to screen orientation announcement that
was originally part of an add-on and now is part of NVDA.

Some concluding remarks from me (for now):

* Alternatives are out there: some folks mentioned dimming the display
(which won’t really solve this issue) and physical screen shade (which needs
to be purchased).
* Priorities: As pointed out by some, we developers have priorities to sort
through. I, for instance, am asked by this community to produce the 2018
edition of my tutorials, and given my current state, it might be delayed
somewhat. Mick Curran is investigating how to let NVDA talk to UIA better,
and Reef is going through some bugs and enhancements at the moment. Jamie
sent in a patch that’ll make Firefox 58 better for NVDA users, and Quentin
is taking a holiday break. Given the effort needed for screen shade, coupled
with what we developers are doing at the moment, I suggest that we let the
add-ons community take care of this one.
* Will screen shade increase NVDA’s popularity: as noted by another
developer on an online chat, this debate shows the popular appeal for this
feature. For some, it is a sound argument, but I think what makes a product
popular isn’t inclusion of popular requests alone – stability, consistency,
being faithful to its duties to a point where enterprise adoption can occur
and what not.

P.S. Looks like I am not a good debater after all…

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Christo
de Klerk
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 5:52 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] screen shade



I only need a screen shade occasionally and for short periods. Often sighted
people also need to use my screen. What is wrong in controlling that by a
hotkey rather than having to stick and remove a sheet of paper. Besides, I
may be somewhere with my laptop where I don't have a handy sheet of paper at
the ready. It seems like you guys who don't have a need for this feature are
just not understanding that some of us do and that an add-on to do it would
by far be the simplest. What skin would it be off your nose if someone
created a little add-on for us misguided souls who want it? Yes, there are
often several ways of achieving something, but some are more convenient than
others. You don't have any idea of my personal circumstances and in my
circumstances this feature would be handy and, besides, having it wouldn't
make life more difficult for you in the slightest.

On 2017/12/18 2:52 PM, Josh Kennedy wrote:

Instead of screen shade. Get a black piece of paper and put it over your
screen. And voila, nobody can see your screen at all.





Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows
10







--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@...
Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125
Mobile Number: +91 7506221750


Re: Screen Shade/curtain?

enes sarıbaş
 

hi,

This apparently does not work on some laptops. However, it works on my toshiba satallite l50A

On 12/18/2017 6:56 AM, Austin Pinto wrote:
why cant people use windows and p and then select projector or second
screen only.
this fully shuts off your main screen.this may not work on laptops or
pcs with a second graphics card

On 12/18/17, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:
Why should he? Turn off your damn scree! Their I said it. Simple
sulution. Glad to hear when this debate is over.


On 12/17/2017 10:35 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:
Yes, Joseph, privacy is for local humans which is real and practical,
not philosophical theory machine...
It is fine if you do not have this use case, but please respect those
of us who need this feature in screen reader.
On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 6:43 PM Joseph Lee <@joslee
<mailto:@joslee>> wrote:

Hi,

That’s for humans. But if we factor in machines, it changes the
game significantly. Even though if sighted folks cannot view
what’s in front of them when this feature is on, folks using
remote software can.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>] *On
Behalf Of *enes saribas
*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:34 PM


*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

however joseph, This fact doesn't change the fact that 99% of
sighted people cannot breach the screen privacy features of screen
readers. Heck, I used to turn on keyboard help to prevent people
from pressing keys when I was away from my pc. A sighted person is
extremely unlikely to know how to re-enable the screen. Most
users, unless they are advanced users, are totally hopeless when
they cannot see the screen.

On 12/18/2017 5:20 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Rebuttal: privacy these days is something you don’t really
“see”. Take advanced malware, for example that can take a look
at what you’re doing without raising suspicion and no need to
keep the monitor on. That’s the point I’m getting at. Screen
shade is just one piece; others are user attitude, programs
(both good and bad), and the target or info one is looking at.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of *David Moore
*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 5:52 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

I did not think about the fact that a sighted person can look
over their shoulder for prying eyes.

That is a great point! Good come back LOL!

I like good debates and discussions, because I just learned
something right there!

David Moore

Sent from Mail
<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

*From: *Kevin Chao <mailto:kevinchao89@...>
*Sent: *Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:40 PM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Screen shade is useful for protecting confidential work
information, which we may not know about prying eyes, and a
sighted person can see when someone is looking over their
shoulders.

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:27 PM Gene <gsasner@...
<mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

As far as I know you can't just turn off the screen in the
Windows settings and doing so may cause you real trouble
if you can do it.  If you unexpectedly need sighted
assistance, to deal with some sort of maintenance or
performance problem, the screen should be on.

The screen shade has the advantage that the screen is
still on and a sighted person can work with the machine if
needed.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

*From:*David Moore <mailto:jesusloves1966@...>

*Sent:*Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:02 PM

*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

*Subject:*Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

I agree that we should only have features in screen
readers that many people will really need, and will help
them do a job. Many features in some screen readers are
just not needed. You do not need a feature to do searches
for you, when you can do a Google search. You don’t need
this screen shade, because you can just turn off your
screen in the Windows settings.

I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.

It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that
for someone to be employed. We need screen readers to help
people work many jobs, that should be the first
importance. Next, intertainment uses need to be accessible
with a screen reader. If you work hard, you need to play
hard LOL!

NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has
either. I am so glad it doesn’t.

It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes
to install JAWS, and JAWS leaves footprints all over my
computer.

David Moore

Sent from Mail
<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows 10

*From: *Gene New Zealand
<mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>
*Sent: *Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi

I agree with Joseph.

There might be things from other screen readers we might
use or might not use so I would rather the developers
concentrate on screen reader features that help.

if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on
and that way if one is made you have the choice of either
adding it or not.

then down the track it could be added like you see with
some addons that code gets added to the core of nvda.

Gene nz

On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:

well fare enough,   but I still think it should be in
the core one day in nvda.   if you don't want to use
it then fare enough but I feel this is a feature for
us blind screen reader users that is needed and would
be a good thing for nvda to have built in.

On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work
all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in
the community, I believe that NVDA's purpose is
screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on
screen reading, with add-ons coming in with
optional features. I do understand that I can be
heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out
below, but I'm speaking from experience that just
following the lead of another screen reader just
because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable
with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature
cannot guarantee 100 percent, as there are
numerous ways of breaching it, including sounds,
speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin
Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a
little program on my laptops that should do this
but it didn't work. I think it should be in nvda
and Joseph for you just to say that you won't
consider it if people say other screen readers
have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but
not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save
energy. But why not simply switching off the
screen (power button on an external monitor,
or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key
combination) on a laptop? Then you have both
advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and
the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe
it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the
status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the
video signal is send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA
(nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
As noted by some members, screen
shade/curtain shows what appears to be a
blank screen. This is used to "guarantee"
privacy for screen reader users. Note the
quotation marks around "guarantee", as it
does not really guarantee privacy, as
there are means to circumvent this (speech
output, braille displays, remote access,
etc.).
   From what I can gather, this function
does not result in extended battery life
nor power savings. When this function is
turned on, an overlay window is imposed on
top of other windows, and turning this off
removes this overlay. As I said above,
this does not provide privacy as many of
you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader:
my overall opinion is that it should not.
If people want it, then I think an add-on
would be a more appropriate solution. Only
after looking at justifications and costs
should developers consider adding this
into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally
for me, a justification that goes along
the lines of, "because another screen
reader has this" is something I won't even
consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is
exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming
the monitor, I do not understand why it
would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop,
tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is one of
the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary
between laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display
modes (signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external
monitor only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to
light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight
with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for
that, although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen
(to which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the
backlight). I have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone
it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case
that on some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent
to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this
functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about
something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list
account via Groups.Io wrote:

From what I know about Windows and
indeed most screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its
not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have
thought it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that
never actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda
that you want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the  issues tracker there is a
thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this
on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
<mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@...
<mailto:briang1@...>,
putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From:
"Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
<mailto:kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017
11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain
feature for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature
via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!














--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other
blindness related material at
http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where
you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK
sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one
of their computers. To find out which locations (or
location) is near to you please visit

http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
(Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA
certified expert near you, please visit the following link
https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification
page contains the official list of NVDA certified
individuals from around the world, who have sat and
successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: screen shade

enes sarıbaş
 

hi,

They can just wrip it off. However, with shade, they cannot diactivate the shade unles they are a high level computer user.


On 12/18/2017 3:52 PM, Josh Kennedy wrote:

Instead of screen shade. Get a black piece of paper and put it over your screen. And voila, nobody can see your screen at all.

 

 

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