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Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Laurie Mehta
 

I am making a request regarding this thread. Due to the subject line that was chosen, it seems that the topic is something that should be actually a notice from the administration that we should all please read. However, the discussion under this subject line has definitely evolved from that original purpose. Could you please change the subject line for the archive purposes and for the purpose of people who may want to bypass this topic?
This chat that is going on is not something I am interested in and yet I hesitate to ignore something that the administration has asked the list to please read. Thank you for your attention in this matter and thank you for this list to discuss questions regarding NVDA.
I apologize in advance if the dictation I used has not come out clearly. My laptop is in need of service and so I am temporarily using just an iPhone. Thanks all, Laurie Mehta


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:15 PM 1/4/2021, Gene wrote:
You live in a sighted world. You are not in a sighted world
meaning that you must think and do everything as a sighted person does. You are blind and there are certain things that need to be done differently or work better because other senses than sight are being used.

Excellently phrased!

I don't read print by getting books with raised print letters. I
read Braille. I determine when a light is in my favor by listening at a street corner. When I use a computer, I think in terms of keyboard commands unless the situation requires me to do otherwise. I obviously don't use a mouse most of the time.
There are people who would and who do benefit by knowing how to
translate sighted computer instructions into keyboard equivalents or, if the program doesn't provide for that, using a virtual mouse. there are blind people who don't, such as someone whose only interests are browsing, e-mail, a certain amount of word processing, as examples. Saying you will be left behind is such a broad generalization that it is meaningless.

This crapola about being left behind is the latest sighted tactic in keeping us out and changing nothing to accommodate us. I have a doctoral degree in music theory, yet I've been quietly denied employment under various trivial pretexts. Like me, plenty of blind folks have earned advanced degrees in technical fields, the sciences and humanities, only to be left behind, not because of how we use computers, but because sightlings use their power to neutralize us. If expertise in sighted culture and language actually benefited the blind, 75% of us wouldn't still be unemployed or working crappy minimum-wage jobs with no opportunities for advancement.
It's very convenient for the sighted world to maintain that if we're being left behind, it's our fault for being insufficiently conversant with its workings. But there are blind programmers and web designers on these very lists who eke out their livings, while their sighted counterparts merely point and click at object libraries and select from prefabricated code modules rather than write their own.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

I was addressing Sarah, not you and i mentioned her by hname. I don't love splitting hairs. I make distinctions where they are necessary for clear thought.

I'm saying that Sarah, who may believe that she is thinking visually, may only be using a way that some sighted people are thinking when they take an action because a lot of sighted people may use other methods for doing the same thing so her model is incomplete and circular.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 12:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 01:39 PM, tim wrote:
I'm saying that your entire model and justification is flawed because you are still using what you know, not all the methods that are available to sighted people, thus you are using circular logic.-
Sighted people have been using "point and click" and GUI virtually exclusively for decades now.

You love splitting hairs and wanting to argue that I am not taking into account the rare exception case. I am not now, nor am ever, interested in discussion of the rare exception cases when what is dirt common is what's the focus.

And, Gene, believe it or not, and no insult intended, I do actually know a lot more about how the sighted computing world works than you ever can, or will, based strictly on what you have offered about yourself. When it comes to this arena, I actually am the subject matter expert, not you.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

~ Brian Vogel


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

I don't know in this example, just what is being done or if you need to understand the concept visually. You can illustrate the concept of a wave without vision. You can use whatever method you like to make a line moving up and down across a page. You could then make another line that meets or doesn't meet the first line which I assume is what is meant by 0 crossings, having two waves that never meet anywhere. That might be one way of having a tactile representation of what is meant. I've never seen but it was explained to me that waves move up and down. I don't recall if a water wave was used as an example, but anyone who has gone swimming in a body of water large enough to have waves has felt waves pass.

I would imagine there are some things that can't be explained in other terms than vision but there are a lot of things that can be.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Smart
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 12:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Brian. I agree, now that I think about it a little more.




Ok, how about this?

If you have never felt a wave, be it an ocean wave, or some physical representation of a sound wave, a sine wave, if you don't have that concept of it going up and down, do you understand the concept of zero crossings?





There. No visual terminology. :)




I'm finding this whole discussion fascinating, even though it is clearly off-topic.





I'd love to know why Sarah's email signature is so bloody big, why she deems all that stuff to be important, but I'll leave that for another discussion. Oh wait, I didn't!




On 2021-01-04 1:29 p.m., Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 01:00 PM, Chris Smart wrote:
Orlando, if you don't think of wave forms in at least a rudimentary visual way, how do you understand the concept of zsplicing the audio at zero crossings then?-
The following is asked sincerely, with zero snark intended, and may not apply to Orlando specifically: How does one think of something in a visual way if one has never had vision?

I honestly do not understand how this would be possible in any meaningful way. There's certainly got to be a conceptual schema one uses, but it could not ever rely on vision in the way those that have it, or have had it in the past, would do it visually.

To me, talking about a visualization of something is not just meaningless, but impossible, without having had the sensory experience of vision. Just like talking about how something sounds (or thinking about how it sounds, to be more accurate) is meaningless and impossible for someone who has always been totally deaf.

I'm trying to wrap my head around what seems to me to be a literally impossible thing. But I do not have the lived experience, either, so I'm listening.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

~ Brian Vogel


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

tim
 

When I worked for verizon. That is just how I had to work it. You have to know those symbols to mouse click on, because keystrokes are not a mouse users friend.
now the team had from born without to those that lost sight. So symbol chatter was a must and key strokes only for our side and symbol talk for customer and that is how verizon demanded it.

On 1/4/2021 12:45 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 12:38 PM, Devin Prater wrote:
Also, I would hope no blind people would use the deliberately
obscure, for us, language of "hamburger icon," "paperclip icon," and
such like that, unless the screen reader reads it like that.
-
Actually, I'd hope that they do, but, and it's a big one, twinned with what gets announced.  For example, "Hit the hamburger stack/menu button," or, "Get to the paperclip/attachment button."
The reason I say that is you will, eventually, be given instructions by a kindly but clueless sighted person who says, "Click on the paperclip button," because that's what they see and they know, implicitly, what it does.  It's really handy to have had someone who's instructing you give you the sighted/announced pairs just because you're likely to be confronted with only the former at some point.
But I do agree that, particularly if the audience is a blind one, I'd likely reverse the ordering of the twins, giving the announced name (or something awfully close to it, I never remember them all, perfectly) first with the icon description afterward.
--
Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.
       ~ Brian Vogel


Re: Questions regarding SwitchSynth

Jacob Kruger
 

If I select a slot by pressing NVDA + ctrl + shift + 3 (for example), it should select slot 3, and I then make changes to synth and voice selection, and then hit NVDA + ctrl + shift + V, to save the combination of choices in the selected slot.


In NVDA input gesture settings dialogue, under switch synth in the treeview, there are two child items:

- Save the currently used synthesizer and its settings to the currently selected slot

- Sets the currently active synthesizer to the selected slot.


And, under those items you can find or change those key combo's.


HTH


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"...resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 2021-01-04 05:35 PM, Sharad Koirala wrote:
hi,
my question could sound very basic..
but how do we assign different synthesizers to different slots in this
addon?  I am not being able to do it..

thank you,

On 1/4/21, Jacob Kruger <jacob@...> wrote:
Morne, one question - if you turn on input help, and, hit the keystroke
assigned to selecting the first slot, what does it tell you?


As in, make sure there's no other bit of functionality assigned to
selecting the first slot?


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"...resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."
On 2020-12-31 12:45 PM, Morne van der Merwe wrote:
Good day list,

I use a laptop with the latest version of Windows, as well as NVDA.

I have two questions regarding the SwitchSynth addon.

According to the addon, there are six slots to load languages on. The
first slot, however, doesn’t work. I can only load language from slot
2 onwards.

When I select my language, the settings ring does not work. I have to
reload NVDA in order for the settings ring to function.

Any help will be much appreciated.

Regards

Morné









Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 01:39 PM, tim wrote:
I'm saying that your entire model and justification is flawed because you are still using what you know, not all the methods that are available to sighted people, thus you are using circular logic.
-
Sighted people have been using "point and click" and GUI virtually exclusively for decades now.

You love splitting hairs and wanting to argue that I am not taking into account the rare exception case.  I am not now, nor am ever, interested in discussion of the rare exception cases when what is dirt common is what's the focus.

And, Gene, believe it or not, and no insult intended, I do actually know a lot more about how the sighted computing world works than you ever can, or will, based strictly on what you have offered about yourself.  When it comes to this arena, I actually am the subject matter expert, not you.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 01:32 PM, Chris Smart wrote:
I'm finding this whole discussion fascinating, even though it is clearly off-topic.
-
As am I, and am thrilled with all the twists and turns its taken.  So long as it drifts staying within the original topic, which has an exception to the group rules about topic, all is fine and dandy, as anyone not interested can mute it at will.

And the topographic, for lack of a better term, analogy is definitely far better, and entirely comprehensible, whether one has or has had vision or not.  I never thought about it until you used it, but I don't imagine there's a human being alive that, at one point or another, whether on paper, in the sand, running one's hand/arm/fingers along a wall, has not actually drawn out a sine wave whether they realized that was the shape being made or not.  It's just such a common, organic form.  For those "of a certain age" whose mothers (most likely) sewed, if you've ever felt the trim called rick-rack it's the perfect example of a sine wave.  Think zig-zag with rounded peaks rather than sharp, pointed ones.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

tim
 

For some programs that would be the tool bar your talking about. It will change depending on what your doing.
The tool bar for Thunderbird is normal. Try doing that command in vs code and its a nightmare. But there are ways through the visual aspect.

On 1/4/2021 12:52 PM, Gene wrote:
Which gets to a larger question.  For sighted people, looking at a computer program interface usually appears to give them all sorts of immediate ways to do common tasks in that program, indicated visually. I learned this, much more than I knew it before, by going into a program in the main window, such as an e-mail program and issuing NVDA key b. that reads every object in the program.  I found, in one e-mail program, all sorts of things blind people would usually not be aware of.  There are buttons that say things like reply to a message, forward a message, and other common actions.  This doesn't even get into using menus or ribbons or dialogs.  This is an example of how sighted people are able to do all sorts of things in programs immediately if they understand how such a program works in general.  You can switch from one e-mail program to another and immediately or almost immediately be able to perform a lot of basic actions.  While I haven't checked with a more general survey, I expect the same to be true in a lot or most programs.
Its like having light switches labeled or having a dorr handle say "push." Sighted people get information on all sorts of minutia blind people aren't eeven aware of.
And what I am discussing helps explain why blind people require the amouhnt of computer training they receive while sighted people often require little.
Also, what I am discussing exposes another fallacy in your argument, Sarah. You visualize things based on what you know.  But if you don't know about the kinds of controls I am describing and you don't think in that way, you are not thinking using what a lot of people use.
I'm not arguing about the importance to some blind peoople of knowing how to translate mouse instructions too keyboard instructions or how to review the screen.  I'm saying that your entire model and justification is flawed because you are still using what you know, not all the methods that are available to sighted people, thus you are using circular logic.
Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 11:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 12:06 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
I can't imagine how sightlings navigate complex web pages without rose/forms mode hotkeys to navigate by headings, lists, links, frames, etc. They must compensate by being able to take in entire pages at a glance, this obviating the need for all these navigation choices.-
For someone who can't imagine, literally, how we do it you have given about as accurate a conceptual description as could possibly be given.
When once talking about how screen readers handle things in my earlier days with Joseph Lee, and trying to wrap my head around the virtual cursor, he made the very astute observation you echo above, saying that I, as a sighted person, take in the entire web page as a gestalt, and that's what happens. Even more than just that, just like those of us who hear very quickly start filtering out irrelevant background noise, e.g., fans whirring, a train passing by if we live near tracks, etc., you do the same thing visually for web pages.  Those of us who see come as close as is literally possible to "never seeing" lots of the links that get announced at the start and end of pages that almost no one, blind or sighted, ever uses in practice.  They instantly "don't register" unless we were to need them, and then, believe it or not, we have to visually search for them using the "eye equivalent" of the commands because we so successfully filter out their presence entirely in day-to-day browsing.
One of the things I hope that someone can eventually come up with as far as screen readers go is AI that allows a screen reader to present information to a blind user in a manner that would be largely consistent with how "your average sighted user" would read a page aloud were they being asked to do so - filtering out the detritus unless it were to be requested.  Until I learned about the various reader modes out there I never understood how a screen reader user ever used wikipedia without being driven stark, raving mad within the first 5 minutes.  I don't care about the 5000 links per page that are click-through links in the text when I go there, I just want to read it as plain text (which, being sighted, is exactly what I do) then, if something intrigues me that is a link, going back afterward, finding it, then clicking through.


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:12 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Some of the longest conversations I've had with a very dear friend of
mine who's been totally blind since birth, and who's my Mom's age,
have been about the chasm that is color. As you have said elsewhere,
she can certainly understand that it constitutes a classification
based on vision as an abstraction, but it is absolutely impossible for
it to be anything else.? ? Even for the sighted, color description
except within classes such as blue, red, etc., is exceedingly
difficult when you get into shades, tints, and variations on a
color. And they all get described mostly using whatever the base
color is. I could no sooner describe blue, just plain blue, to
someone sighted than I could to someone blind. It is a visual axiom
- you simply recognize it - you don't really have any way to describe
it other than itself.? There are many aspects of vision that cannot
be translated in any meaningful way to language and the same is true
(as you'd well know) of sound. Most sound descriptions related to
instrumental characteristics are well-nigh impossible to describe as
other than, "it sounds like . . ."? The complexities involved in what
actually creates that sound are, even if qualified in language quite
precisely, not anything like hearing it.? They are their own
auditory axioms.


That's what makes each sense unique. although there is considerable overlap between senses, each sense has its own axioms. At a certain point, you have to taste foods to know how they taste, hear sounds to know how they sound and see colors to know how they look. The trick is in correctly estimating where the gulf between sensory translation and axiom begins.
A high school teacher once described blue too me by running my fingers along the tiled walls. But, when people talk about the blue sky or feeling blue, I don't imagine tiles. Besides, just like the artificial construct of race, color is an arbitrary pigment taxonomy, arbitrary in the sense that the exact amount of pigment between primary colors and shades is undefinable.
Then, some of the analogies are just downright confusing. Black is supposed to mean darkness, an absence of all color. Yet, when the color drains from faces, we don't say that people go black; we say they go pale. To say nothing of the terrible term "colored" for Black people. How can they be simultaneously dark and colored?

Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 01:01 PM, Chris Smart wrote:

People expecting to never read a manual or look something up for themselves would never survive in Linux Land, that's for sure.

 

-
Assertions by some others to the contrary, this is not limited to Linux Land nor to computing.  I have never met anyone who has not needed, at one point or another, to look something up for themselves and then, sometimes, struggle through the material alone for the most part.

RTFM is also not an inappropriate response to many simple questions where a momentary look at the manpage, however it were to be obtained, will answer all.  And if you don't know how to find said manpage (Unix/Linux lingo for manual page) then, let me tell you, job one is learning how!
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Chris Smart
 

Brian. I agree, now that I think about it a little more.


Ok, how about this?

If you have never felt a wave, be it an ocean wave, or some physical representation of a sound wave, a sine wave, if you don't have that concept of it going up and down, do you understand the concept of zero crossings?


There. No visual terminology. :)


I'm finding this whole discussion fascinating, even though it is clearly off-topic.


I'd love to know why Sarah's email signature is so bloody big, why she deems all that stuff to be important, but I'll leave that for another discussion. Oh wait, I didn't!


On 2021-01-04 1:29 p.m., Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 01:00 PM, Chris Smart wrote:
Orlando, if you don't think of wave forms in at least a rudimentary visual way, how do you understand the concept of zsplicing the audio at zero crossings then?
-
The following is asked sincerely, with zero snark intended, and may not apply to Orlando specifically:  How does one think of something in a visual way if one has never had vision?

I honestly do not understand how this would be possible in any meaningful way.  There's certainly got to be a conceptual schema one uses, but it could not ever rely on vision in the way those that have it, or have had it in the past, would do it visually.

To me, talking about a visualization of something is not just meaningless, but impossible, without having had the sensory experience of vision.  Just like talking about how something sounds (or thinking about how it sounds, to be more accurate) is meaningless and impossible for someone who has always been totally deaf.

I'm trying to wrap my head around what seems to me to be a literally impossible thing.  But I do not have the lived experience, either, so I'm listening.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 01:20 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
"Coma coma coma chameleon!"
-
(Sub)Culture Club!
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 01:00 PM, Chris Smart wrote:
Orlando, if you don't think of wave forms in at least a rudimentary visual way, how do you understand the concept of zsplicing the audio at zero crossings then?
-
The following is asked sincerely, with zero snark intended, and may not apply to Orlando specifically:  How does one think of something in a visual way if one has never had vision?

I honestly do not understand how this would be possible in any meaningful way.  There's certainly got to be a conceptual schema one uses, but it could not ever rely on vision in the way those that have it, or have had it in the past, would do it visually.

To me, talking about a visualization of something is not just meaningless, but impossible, without having had the sensory experience of vision.  Just like talking about how something sounds (or thinking about how it sounds, to be more accurate) is meaningless and impossible for someone who has always been totally deaf.

I'm trying to wrap my head around what seems to me to be a literally impossible thing.  But I do not have the lived experience, either, so I'm listening.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Outlook 2016 NVDA not announcing To & CC fields separately

Ralf Kefferpuetz
 

This is a known problem with Office 2016 which does not occur with Office 365. Here are the bugs, I suggest to add yourcomment on the second open issue.

https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10953

https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8502

 

cheers,

  Ralf

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ramesh Patil
Sent: Montag, 4. Januar 2021 09:34
To: nvda <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Outlook 2016 NVDA not announcing To & CC fields separately

 

Another issue I am facing that NVDA not announcing suggestions of email IDs in To and Cc fields. Pls clear

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021, 12:59 PM Ramesh Patil via groups.io <ramesh.patil1989=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Expand the header solves the issues. Thank you so much

 

On Sun, Jan 3, 2021, 3:33 PM Ralf Kefferpuetz <ralf.kefferpuetz@...> wrote:

Guys, was there anything unclear in my earlier response? Expand the header fields in Outlook once and the addon reads all the fields as required. Such simpel...

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Samstag, 2. Januar 2021 20:25
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Outlook 2016 NVDA not announcing To & CC fields separately

I don't know how the add-on works and I don't use Outlook.  But what happens if you open a message and start tabbing backwards?  See if you start moving through fields such as subject, and other fields including those you want to see.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis L
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2021 12:58 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Outlook 2016 NVDA not announcing To & CC fields separately

Other screen readers have this ability for years.  NVDA should also have this ability.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ralf Kefferpuetz
Sent: Saturday, January 2, 2021 7:33 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Outlook 2016 NVDA not announcing To & CC fields separately

Hello,
There is nothing we can do from an addon perspective, you need to expand the outlook message header. Pls see this link:
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/msoffice_outlook-mso_win10-mso_2016/show-to-and-cc-separately-in-open-message-in/7717805d-141a-4997-a440-0b1579752259?auth=1

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ramesh Patil
Sent: Samstag, 2. Januar 2021 09:41
To: nvda <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Outlook 2016 NVDA not announcing To & CC fields separately

Sir,

I am using NVDA and outlook 2016 with addon outlook extended. But by keystroke ALT + 3 NVDA will announce both To and CC fields of mail together.
we can not able to understand which mail  id is of CC and which of To field.
Addon developer please guide or any other way to listen CC and To fields separately

Ramesh Patil


























Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

Orlando, you cad! Giving people more comas than they should have,
which is ideally none, is just plain cruel!! ;-)  [Sorry, but
this was just too easy and too hard to resist!]
"Coma coma coma chameleon!"

Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:03 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Orlando, you cad! Giving people more comas than they should have,
which is ideally none, is just plain cruel!

Duly noted. Comma in this context has two Ms. It probably got its second M to distinguish it from the kind that put people to sleep in vegetative states.
Orlando


Re: Question regarding interpunction reading

Lukasz Golonka
 

On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 14:05:24 +0100
lutztiger.luigi@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
I've been using JAWS and NVDA 2017 (prior big update) for a long time. Recently I have installed the current version of NVDA.
Just to make sure by current version you mean NVDA 2020.3 - right?

It seems like there have been made changes regarding how interpunction is treated in the text-to-speech modules. NVDA pauses much longer at the end of sentences for example. I believe brackets are also treated differently, creating longer pauses. This pausing, probably having some advantages, dramatically slows down how fast I can go through texts and confuses me when working.
what synthesizer are you using now, and what synth were you using with
NVDA 2017?

--
Regards
Lukasz


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

No, I'm not just wrong. I'm saying that left behind depends on who you are. the person who uses the computer for purposes such as I've discussed won't be left behind. A lot of blind people use computers for browsing, e-mail, streaming, and other such purposes. They will not be left behind, they use programs for which there is plenty of material for blind people to learn from created for blind people. If you use a computer for other purposes, then you may be left behind and it is important to know how to translate mouse instructions and how to review the screen in the ways your screen-reader provides. the general statement you will be left behind assumes a certain kkind of user and is so general that it is meaningless. If you are going to make such statements, you need to define who you are talking about.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 11:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 12:15 PM, Gene wrote:
[With reference to not being able to translate instructions written for the sighted.] Saying you will be left behind is such a broad generalization that it is meaningless.-
Sorry, Gene, but you are, quite simply, wrong. Period. End of sentence.

Most computer instructional material is not, and never will be, written in keyboard centric language with screen reader output noted. I can't think of a single user of a computer who has never, even once, needed to look up how to do something, however simple.

If you cannot use instructions written with a sighted audience in mind, at all, then you will very rapidly get "left behind." As others, including yourself, I believe, have said every individual, regardless of their sensory palette, lives in the world at large. And if they cannot negotiate the world at large, with compensations appropriate to their situations, they will get left behind (and, sadly, often do - and often play their own huge roles in that occurring).
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Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

~ Brian Vogel


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Chris Smart
 

People expecting to never read a manual or look something up for themselves would never survive in Linux Land, that's for sure.



On 2021-01-04 11:36 a.m., Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:28 AM, Mike Capelle wrote:
OMG, if someone asks me a question, I will answer it, telling someone to look it up or research it, is rude!
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Sorry, Mike, but I have to disagree, and not just in reference to blind groups/lists, though I see what follows happen more frequently on them.

Anyone, before they impose upon the time of over a thousand people, should think about whether what they're about to ask is likely already answered and whether the answers to same are readily available to them without imposing on the time of others.  Expecting that someone will have lifted a finger before imposing on the time of group members is not unreasonable, at all, and I have seen many messages over the years where the effort to type the subject and text took more effort than distilling what was in the subject to a very tightly focused web search that would have produced the answer many times over would have.  It is lazy, and rude, to ask that sort of question without having tried to find it yourself, first.

Another segment from my "Expectations of Members" document that I have used in group rules elsewhere, but not on the NVDA Group, is pertinent:
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1.        You will have done a web search and/or group archive search before posting almost any question, because the vast majority of questions relevant to online communities have been answered, repeatedly.  It is rude to impose upon the time of hundreds to thousands of people regarding questions that have answers that can be found independently with very little effort and basic skills.

2.       If you are told, “There’s this thing called a web search,” or, “Google is your friend,” or similar that you realize you deserve it.  I have yet to see this response to anything that does not warrant it.  If you ask something that indicates you didn’t follow the practices outlined in items 2 thru 4, before asking online and imposing on the time of others when that’s completely unnecessary, this is a perfectly legitimate response to that.  You’ve been lazy and rude; don’t repeat that mistake.

3.       If you receive a reaction such as those in #5 above, the appropriate response is NEVER to argue back.  The one and only response that is appropriate, if you actually do not have the skills to do your own searching, is to ask for assistance in acquiring same, period.  Believe it or not, those who gave that reaction to you will very often be your best assistants in acquiring the skills you need.  That reaction is meant as a nudge to you to acquire them.

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Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 

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