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Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
You are probably right brian, hardware for spaciffic things is getting less and less and eventually the processer will just be well controled by software and we can do it all again how we feel like it.
The only difference is that we will not have to rely on tape drives.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 27/12/2017 10:59 a.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote: No there will be no new windows as such. On many occasions Microsoft have said 10 is it, and true to their word they are effectively shipping out a new windows every few months. However, lets see it for what it is, its a new windows, and in much the same way as Firefox has they just up the version number even when its almost a completely new system.
What is going to scupper us all is a new hardware system as time progresses. Whether the system it uses will be called Windows, is debatable but new processors and support chips and a completely different architecture ditching any pretence to backward compatibility to the PC seem inevitable. In many ways we are going back to the 80s, where there were myriad processors and architectures all over the place all running bespoke front ends.
I suspect with the speed of these new horizons systems you can afford to emulate in software all sorts of things so software can be easily ported.
I can remember back in my earlier years helping with aZ80 chip emulator for the pc, and then adding on top the operating system of many 8 bit machines and hardware emulation. We had a very clever Dutch programmer at that time.
it was only really when the 386 chip came out though that we could run it at normal speed.
OK off topic but I saw to it that it also emulated a speech synth, which worked remarkably well.
Those were odd times, butwell now they are gone!
Happy new year.
Brian
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
I agree.
At any rate, win7 will be officially round for 3 years and 8x another 2
or so after that.
What will really change things is when 32 bit finally dies off to the
extent where most things will be 64 bit.
Thats happening but there are still a lot of 32 bit softwares about,
blind games and the like.
But yeah there are still a few using win8 and 7.
I still use 7, and I like it, I don't plan to get 10 just yet.
One of the main reasons I still use such an ancient os now bar ribbons
and the like is we still have a user on an elderly machine using it.
That machine will soon go to the dogs its on its last circuit board and
chip, so once I am the only one I guess I will use what everyone uses so
well who knows.
With the way firefox has gone, similar to the way security software has
gone, the way computers have gone and the way ms has gone though I am
really going to have to figure out what exactly I need to upgrade for.
Bar the paypal and a few bank related things with waterfox I do, bar a
few games, except for breakages and the like this time around I have
almost 0 need to ever upgrade again to any new system as long as 1.
security software works and my software in general is not effected to much.
Unlike xp which had so many issues security wize the fact is even if
win7 stopped right now, we have most of the security we actually need
for most things to an extent.
Its going to take longer for win7 and 8 to die than 10.
Rumers are that windows 11 comes out in 2019 but who knows if thats true
or not.
On 27/12/2017 12:54 a.m., Adriani Botez wrote:
I agree. There are some really good aspects which have to be considered.
NV Access has to be really careful when it comes to finding the best time to drop support for older systems. In the case of win xp it was the right time since even most developing countries are not affected. But we should try to consider developing countries everytime when droping support is likely to happen. Otherwise the main part of the goal of NV Access will fail to be achieved. An extended support release would be great. For this, the team from NV Access definitely needs to get bigger, for example NV Access should provide a trainee program and should give developers the possibility to do an internship. This would give potential developers time to learn internal processes without having big responsibilities.
Best
Adriani
Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Am 26.12.2017 um 13:33 schrieb "coffeekingms@hotmail.com" <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>:
Hi
I agree with this message and it’s goals of having an NVDA app in the store. But I have some concerns as well. One of the most prominent being will ninite still be able to download and install this if NVDA transitions over to being store only? Second, this will pretty much eliminate any version of windows other than windows 10 and maybe 8 and 8.1, if the store apps on those can download the same apps windows 10 can, from using NVDA. This is good and not good. There are lots of people who have to use older versions of windows, even older than the minimum NVDA supports. How do we handle this. Simply saying get with the times and upgrade isn’t always possible and even when possible isn’t always what the user wants. I’m not trying to start any debates hear, and I think NVDA in the store is a good thing. But it has to be done right. Preferably an option in the windows installer, or code in windows itself to download NVDA on install would be nice. But there are problems with that as well. That would make it convenient for NVDA users but would make use of NVDA compulsory and would take away the users ability to choose which program they want. It’s a huge circle that’s not really solveable. Also, can NVDA still remain open source if it’s in the windows store? I don’t understand the legal issues or licensing issues an app goes through when being added to the store but I’m assuming that there is some MS code required to be in all apps and that code is probably not going to be open. Certainly I see no license field when installing apps, it is just assumed all apps are proprietary. NVDA should not give up it’s open source status, at least in my opinion. But I love the idea of making NVDA development easier. I myself have struggled with this for years. I’ve tried a total of 5 times now to learn enough python to jump in and help NVDA out, to become an active developer. Jamie teh sort of got me passionate about that when he gave me his blind people should be able to use computers for free speech. I’ve failed every single time. Not because python is complex, although it is, but because trying to jump from print “hello world” to NVDA code is a huge, huge, huge leap. I learned just enough to, with help, add media keycodes to NVDA so when you press play in learn mode, NVDA says play pause. But no more. NVDA was just too complex. I don’t understand how the windows store runs apps it downloads, not completely. What little I do understand about it is that it virtualizes them, isolating them from the rest of the system to keep viruses from getting out while somehow still allowing it access to what it needs to run. This is one major disadvantage of running windows, I can’t look at internals. Ms is too secretive and because of their licenses, others are just as secretive, pointing out clauses in licenses they agreed to. I’ve been told by windows experts about msdn and TechNet, but articles there are written with the assumption that you understand source code, or at least windows internals enough to read and understand them, and I don’t. I’ve gone off topic hear, so I’ll shut up now. I love the idea of NVDA being in the store. But, I still think we should support as many windows versions as we can. I know it’s a huge overhead and windows 10 is great and has all kinds of new technology and all that, but at the same time, people are going to use what they’re going to use. I think windows 7 is nearing the end of it’s life. Ms has already made it clear that new hardware, I believe sky lake and newer, will only run on windows 10. Then there’s secure boot and all that nonsense, so whether we like it or not everyone will be forced into staying on the newest windows eventually, and there I go again.
Thanks
Kendell Clark
Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:16:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
That is only the case because of rogue nations attempting to censor the web,
and some commercial interests prioritising their own content of course.
Brian
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene New Zealand" <hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi
the thing that comes to mind is it will be searchable through the store
world wide on any persons computer running windows 10 compared to a
website.
|Gene nz
On 12/26/2017 12:51 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past
3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem
where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows
releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in
August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have
to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate
to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access
and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability
to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told
some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find
yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for
and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this
can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch
snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python
3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people
taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers,
and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to
help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence
the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure
things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons
installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as
add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code
before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi folks. I see a lot of issues and chat about doing this on github and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a language as one can. If somebody could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you
know!
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
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--
[Image NVDA certified expert]
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you
are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a
copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out
which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed
the NVDA expert exam.
|
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Pranav Lal
Hi all, NVDA does have paid tech support so you do have a number to call. Susan, have you tried this option? I am unsure if the school would have bought the support which could be a challenge. Pranav
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Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment
Sarah k Alawami
Like I said use Xfat. You can do more than 4 gigs for a file size and for me when I use it I seem to have better and faster luck writing to flash drives and the like.. I can also write to drives formated as such on the mac as well.
On Dec 26, 2017, at 2:12 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io < bglists@...> wrote:
For many years a free HP program used to allow all sorts of format options for all sorts of discs, and I used it a lot. The only reason I used batch was because I could script it and whiz through a hundred in no time at all.Brianbglists@...Sent via blueyonder.Please address personal email to:-briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'in the display name field.----- Original Message ----- From: <coffeekingms@...>To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 1:26 PMSubject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the momentHiFair point about reFS. Wikipedia didn’t specifically say that it was ms’s proprietary raid, I sort of paraphrased it. What it actually said was a lot of complex language regarding sector allocation, data stripes, and the like. It sounded like raid and it seemed to work similar to raid, but I think it may actually be most similar to btrfs on Linux or maybe zfs on bsd. To dumb it down a bit, it’s supposed to provide better redundancy if a disk fails and provide better recovery if a disk runs into problems. I believe it also compresses stuff by default, but again I’m no expert.In any case, I’ve started using guiformat.exe and it works like a charm until Microsoft restores the functionality, or fixes the bug if it is a bug.ThanksKendell ClarkSent from my Vizio Ultrabook________________________________From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...>Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 6:05:21 AMTo: nvda@nvda.groups.ioSubject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the momentHi,Correction: although ReFS integrates some RAID features, it isn’t really a complete RAID solution.Cheers,JosephFrom: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph LeeSent: Monday, December 25, 2017 4:04 AMTo: nvda@nvda.groups.ioSubject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the momentHi,FAT32 can format drives up to 2 terabytes maximum, and 32 GB is the artificial limit imposed. ReFS (Resilient File System), contrary to what you may have read on Wikipedia, is not Microsoft’s version of RAID (Redundant Array of Independent Disks). The file system structure is a bit similar in concept but it is not RAID, as ReFS is designed for large storage pools and for data integrity on those pools (you can’t boot from a ReFS volume, and you can’t read ReFS formatted pools unless you have Windows 10 Version 1709 or Server 1709).Cheers,JosephFrom: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of coffeekingms@...<mailto:coffeekingms@...>Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 3:57 AMTo: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the momentHiI’m not absolutely positive the fat32 feature is gone, but I *think* it is. My reasons are because on flash drives, only the XFat and ntfs options are visible, and on external hard drives, or more correctly, external hard drives above a certain size, what that size is I’m not sure, only the ntfs option is usable, along with something called reFS, which Wikipedia says is microsoft’s proprietary implementation of raid. There are tools to do this I have no doubt, several people have pointed out programs. My reason for posting it hear was because this was able to be done out of the box before and it isn’t now. I’m puzzled by the removal, if it is a removal. It is always possible NVDA suddenly can’t see the option, and I’ll check with narrator really quickly but I doubt that’s the problem. It’s either deliberate or a bug. If it is a bug it’s a recent one, because I don’t remember having this problem a month or so ago, so that narrows down the list of updates that could’ve caused it. But windows isn’t … well it’s not as open as I’m used to so it’s harder to debug. It can be done but when you’re used to Linux and it’s internals being available … That’s another reason I want to get involved with NVDA development, or at least involved in the community. I want to get as comfortable with windows as I am with Linux, to the point where I’m able to essentially take it apart to fix if needed. Right now I’d say I’m barely above an average user with windows. If that.ThanksKendell ClarkSent from my Vizio Ultrabook________________________________From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>>Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 4:11:04 AMTo: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the momentYes a friend has a big drive formatted in some way, but it would not playon the stick player. take the data off format it to fat32, copy it back andhey presto. it works, though I'd not go for his choice in music.I'm glad the batch file worked, and as you say there are programs out therethat do this, however one has to wonder why Msoft would remove a normalformat mode from the gui. are we absolutely sure its gone, and its not justan nvda issue that cannot see the button or checkbox?Also does the program also do a verify?I note that windows says it is doing it, but I have my doubts that itsdoing more than reading the fat.Brianbglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>Sent via blueyonder.Please address personal email to:-briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian Gaff'in the display name field.----- Original Message -----From: "Giles Turnbull" <giles.turnbull@...<mailto:giles.turnbull@...>>To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 11:41 PMSubject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formattingfor flash drives for the momentI ran into this problem when I replaced my Booksense book reader with aBlaze earlier this year. I decided I'd buy a 128Gb SD card, which I quiclyfound the Blaze couldn't handle. I knew the Booksense was limited to 32Gband later found out the Blaze is can handle max 64Gb. I found that out whenI emailed HIMS because I was fed up at having an unusable 128Gb drive!They suggested FAT32 formatter with a GUI that worked fine for me with NVDA.It is called guiformat.exe and I found it with a quick Google search. It hasa combo box with all available drives and lets you choose the allocationunit size and lets you label the drive with whatever name you like.My Blaze ET handles the FAT32 formatted 128Gb SD card fine.Giles
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Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi, I am the same only because of the addons thing at the moment. but I am pleased to see a version of nvda in the store. think it is the only screen reader in the store well done Nvda.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 26/12/2017 21:27, Shaun Everiss wrote: Having a student version of windows which is what s is is well interesting.
However for a full user you will either want to upgrade at cost to pro or avoid s completely.
But for a student or something that just wants a tablet and really doesn't need the extra stuff maybe an old person this may work.
Its just that we are all normal users and geeks here.
I for one will be getting nvda from the usual place.
On 26/12/2017 11:05 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Yes, But what is the actual point of having nvda in the Windows store in the first place?
From what I can see, most users will need to run add ons, which will mean running it as a normal app, and in that case they might as well get it from nvaccess.
The only people who will benefit from it being in the store are those running Windows 10S, the rubbish restricted hands tied behind back version of the operating system. Surely in this context, Narrator itself is going to have better access, being part of the operating system, albeit a bit slow and clunky.
I also don't understand how, for example, Google Chrome can actually be allowed to have a mere stub to load in normal Chrome in the Microsoft store.
If that is a way around it, why are we bothering to do all the work? One assumes Chrome is going to be the same as nvda, in that it can either run with its hands tied or normally in the same code. I'm sure this whole mess with Firefox is due to the same strange concept of Microsofts.
As I said in a previous post, most people are distrustful of Microsofts real agenda here, and so many would choose to continue with normal Windows, Normal Office and normal apps.
The other down side of so called universal apps and the restrictions of the system is that they seem to have abandoned a user interface that is the same for all. Its a ruddy free for all in this area, making apps that run under it really hard to learn as one has to throw all knowledge out and then try to understand what a particular author has in fact done.
I'm not having a go at nvda here, as we have to live in the world as it is, its just that for many blind people we feel that the rug is being pulled out from below us just as we are getting equal access.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past 3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python 3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers, and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi folks. I see a lot of issues and chat about doing this on github and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a language as one can. If somebody could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you know!
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
.
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Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
No there will be no new windows as such. On many occasions Microsoft have said 10 is it, and true to their word they are effectively shipping out a new windows every few months. However, lets see it for what it is, its a new windows, and in much the same way as Firefox has they just up the version number even when its almost a completely new system.
What is going to scupper us all is a new hardware system as time progresses. Whether the system it uses will be called Windows, is debatable but new processors and support chips and a completely different architecture ditching any pretence to backward compatibility to the PC seem inevitable. In many ways we are going back to the 80s, where there were myriad processors and architectures all over the place all running bespoke front ends.
I suspect with the speed of these new horizons systems you can afford to emulate in software all sorts of things so software can be easily ported.
I can remember back in my earlier years helping with aZ80 chip emulator for the pc, and then adding on top the operating system of many 8 bit machines and hardware emulation. We had a very clever Dutch programmer at that time.
it was only really when the 386 chip came out though that we could run it at normal speed.
OK off topic but I saw to it that it also emulated a speech synth, which worked remarkably well.
Those were odd times, butwell now they are gone!
Happy new year.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
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toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why? I agree. At any rate, win7 will be officially round for 3 years and 8x another 2 or so after that. What will really change things is when 32 bit finally dies off to the extent where most things will be 64 bit. Thats happening but there are still a lot of 32 bit softwares about, blind games and the like. But yeah there are still a few using win8 and 7. I still use 7, and I like it, I don't plan to get 10 just yet. One of the main reasons I still use such an ancient os now bar ribbons and the like is we still have a user on an elderly machine using it. That machine will soon go to the dogs its on its last circuit board and chip, so once I am the only one I guess I will use what everyone uses so well who knows. With the way firefox has gone, similar to the way security software has gone, the way computers have gone and the way ms has gone though I am really going to have to figure out what exactly I need to upgrade for. Bar the paypal and a few bank related things with waterfox I do, bar a few games, except for breakages and the like this time around I have almost 0 need to ever upgrade again to any new system as long as 1. security software works and my software in general is not effected to much. Unlike xp which had so many issues security wize the fact is even if win7 stopped right now, we have most of the security we actually need for most things to an extent. Its going to take longer for win7 and 8 to die than 10. Rumers are that windows 11 comes out in 2019 but who knows if thats true or not. On 27/12/2017 12:54 a.m., Adriani Botez wrote: I agree. There are some really good aspects which have to be considered.
NV Access has to be really careful when it comes to finding the best time to drop support for older systems. In the case of win xp it was the right time since even most developing countries are not affected. But we should try to consider developing countries everytime when droping support is likely to happen. Otherwise the main part of the goal of NV Access will fail to be achieved. An extended support release would be great. For this, the team from NV Access definitely needs to get bigger, for example NV Access should provide a trainee program and should give developers the possibility to do an internship. This would give potential developers time to learn internal processes without having big responsibilities.
Best
Adriani
Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Am 26.12.2017 um 13:33 schrieb "coffeekingms@hotmail.com" <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>:
Hi
I agree with this message and it’s goals of having an NVDA app in the store. But I have some concerns as well. One of the most prominent being will ninite still be able to download and install this if NVDA transitions over to being store only? Second, this will pretty much eliminate any version of windows other than windows 10 and maybe 8 and 8.1, if the store apps on those can download the same apps windows 10 can, from using NVDA. This is good and not good. There are lots of people who have to use older versions of windows, even older than the minimum NVDA supports. How do we handle this. Simply saying get with the times and upgrade isn’t always possible and even when possible isn’t always what the user wants. I’m not trying to start any debates hear, and I think NVDA in the store is a good thing. But it has to be done right. Preferably an option in the windows installer, or code in windows itself to download NVDA on install would be nice. But there are problems with that as well. That would make it convenient for NVDA users but would make use of NVDA compulsory and would take away the users ability to choose which program they want. It’s a huge circle that’s not really solveable. Also, can NVDA still remain open source if it’s in the windows store? I don’t understand the legal issues or licensing issues an app goes through when being added to the store but I’m assuming that there is some MS code required to be in all apps and that code is probably not going to be open. Certainly I see no license field when installing apps, it is just assumed all apps are proprietary. NVDA should not give up it’s open source status, at least in my opinion. But I love the idea of making NVDA development easier. I myself have struggled with this for years. I’ve tried a total of 5 times now to learn enough python to jump in and help NVDA out, to become an active developer. Jamie teh sort of got me passionate about that when he gave me his blind people should be able to use computers for free speech. I’ve failed every single time. Not because python is complex, although it is, but because trying to jump from print “hello world” to NVDA code is a huge, huge, huge leap. I learned just enough to, with help, add media keycodes to NVDA so when you press play in learn mode, NVDA says play pause. But no more. NVDA was just too complex. I don’t understand how the windows store runs apps it downloads, not completely. What little I do understand about it is that it virtualizes them, isolating them from the rest of the system to keep viruses from getting out while somehow still allowing it access to what it needs to run. This is one major disadvantage of running windows, I can’t look at internals. Ms is too secretive and because of their licenses, others are just as secretive, pointing out clauses in licenses they agreed to. I’ve been told by windows experts about msdn and TechNet, but articles there are written with the assumption that you understand source code, or at least windows internals enough to read and understand them, and I don’t. I’ve gone off topic hear, so I’ll shut up now. I love the idea of NVDA being in the store. But, I still think we should support as many windows versions as we can. I know it’s a huge overhead and windows 10 is great and has all kinds of new technology and all that, but at the same time, people are going to use what they’re going to use. I think windows 7 is nearing the end of it’s life. Ms has already made it clear that new hardware, I believe sky lake and newer, will only run on windows 10. Then there’s secure boot and all that nonsense, so whether we like it or not everyone will be forced into staying on the newest windows eventually, and there I go again.
Thanks
Kendell Clark
Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:16:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
That is only the case because of rogue nations attempting to censor the web,
and some commercial interests prioritising their own content of course.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene New Zealand" <hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi
the thing that comes to mind is it will be searchable through the store
world wide on any persons computer running windows 10 compared to a
website.
|Gene nz
On 12/26/2017 12:51 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past
3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem
where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows
releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in
August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have
to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate
to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access
and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability
to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told
some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find
yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for
and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this
can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch
snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python
3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people
taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers,
and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to
help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence
the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure
things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons
installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as
add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code
before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi folks. I see a lot of issues and chat about doing this on github and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a language as one can. If somebody could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you
know!
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
--
[Image NVDA certified expert]
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you
are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a
copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out
which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed
the NVDA expert exam.
|
|
|
Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Well I don't see any reason for those using old python2 right now that both libraries can't be included, maybe you get warning with older addons that newer functionality can't be used but since older stuff won't well.
The only oldish addons I use are ifinterpriters, winfrots andglulx addons and winamp, dropbox and a few things like that.
I firmly believe that these should all be put in the core.
I don't see why we can't play if games and text based games natively.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 27/12/2017 10:23 a.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote: Of course if there were enough users out there who used XP, there is nothing to stop them taking the last known working snaps and branching it out as a different flavour if they really want to, but this might of course cause more confusion than it helps people. I'm not aware all that many people considered the firefox bug serious enough to change the building methods of nvda. From what we now know of Firefox's decision making, we might as well have left it well alone!
The speed of developments in computing seems to have increased far beyond the need to keep things working into the realms of change for its own sake, mainly driven by Microsoft here.
I tend to think that if the alternate groups could get their act together under one product now is the time to have an alternative to windows that does not have 50,000 different names and desktops with all sorts of apis.
Just a few thoughts.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
I agree. There are some really good aspects which have to be considered.
NV Access has to be really careful when it comes to finding the best time to drop support for older systems. In the case of win xp it was the right time since even most developing countries are not affected. But we should try to consider developing countries everytime when droping support is likely to happen. Otherwise the main part of the goal of NV Access will fail to be achieved. An extended support release would be great. For this, the team from NV Access definitely needs to get bigger, for example NV Access should provide a trainee program and should give developers the possibility to do an internship. This would give potential developers time to learn internal processes without having big responsibilities.
Best
Adriani
Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Am 26.12.2017 um 13:33 schrieb "coffeekingms@hotmail.com" <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>:
Hi
I agree with this message and it’s goals of having an NVDA app in the store. But I have some concerns as well. One of the most prominent being will ninite still be able to download and install this if NVDA transitions over to being store only? Second, this will pretty much eliminate any version of windows other than windows 10 and maybe 8 and 8.1, if the store apps on those can download the same apps windows 10 can, from using NVDA. This is good and not good. There are lots of people who have to use older versions of windows, even older than the minimum NVDA supports. How do we handle this. Simply saying get with the times and upgrade isn’t always possible and even when possible isn’t always what the user wants. I’m not trying to start any debates hear, and I think NVDA in the store is a good thing. But it has to be done right. Preferably an option in the windows installer, or code in windows itself to download NVDA on install would be nice. But there are problems with that as well. That would make it convenient for NVDA users but would make use of NVDA compulsory and would take away the users ability to choose which program they want. It’s a huge circle that’s not really solveable. Also, can NVDA still remain open source if it’s in the windows store? I don’t understand the legal issues or licensing issues an app goes through when being added to the store but I’m assuming that there is some MS code required to be in all apps and that code is probably not going to be open. Certainly I see no license field when installing apps, it is just assumed all apps are proprietary. NVDA should not give up it’s open source status, at least in my opinion. But I love the idea of making NVDA development easier. I myself have struggled with this for years. I’ve tried a total of 5 times now to learn enough python to jump in and help NVDA out, to become an active developer. Jamie teh sort of got me passionate about that when he gave me his blind people should be able to use computers for free speech. I’ve failed every single time. Not because python is complex, although it is, but because trying to jump from print “hello world” to NVDA code is a huge, huge, huge leap. I learned just enough to, with help, add media keycodes to NVDA so when you press play in learn mode, NVDA says play pause. But no more. NVDA was just too complex. I don’t understand how the windows store runs apps it downloads, not completely. What little I do understand about it is that it virtualizes them, isolating them from the rest of the system to keep viruses from getting out while somehow still allowing it access to what it needs to run. This is one major disadvantage of running windows, I can’t look at internals. Ms is too secretive and because of their licenses, others are just as secretive, pointing out clauses in licenses they agreed to. I’ve been told by windows experts about msdn and TechNet, but articles there are written with the assumption that you understand source code, or at least windows internals enough to read and understand them, and I don’t. I’ve gone off topic hear, so I’ll shut up now. I love the idea of NVDA being in the store. But, I still think we should support as many windows versions as we can. I know it’s a huge overhead and windows 10 is great and has all kinds of new technology and all that, but at the same time, people are going to use what they’re going to use. I think windows 7 is nearing the end of it’s life. Ms has already made it clear that new hardware, I believe sky lake and newer, will only run on windows 10. Then there’s secure boot and all that nonsense, so whether we like it or not everyone will be forced into staying on the newest windows eventually, and there I go again.
Thanks
Kendell Clark
Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:16:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
That is only the case because of rogue nations attempting to censor the web,
and some commercial interests prioritising their own content of course.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene New Zealand" <hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi
the thing that comes to mind is it will be searchable through the store
world wide on any persons computer running windows 10 compared to a
website.
|Gene nz
On 12/26/2017 12:51 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is > past
3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a > long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem
where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA > while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows
releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in
August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order > to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you > have
to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate
to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version > 1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access
and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on > an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up > ability
to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told
some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find
yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for
and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. > This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change > as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this
can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch
snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's > running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop > version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will > mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows > releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python
3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals > (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people
taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers,
and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to
help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence
the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll > gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure
things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud > over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons
installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as
add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), > our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, > some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, > but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it > is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code
before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi folks. I see a lot of issues and chat about doing this on github > and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole > sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a language as one can. If somebody > could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you
know!
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
--
[Image NVDA certified expert]
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you
are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a
copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out
which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries > (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed
the NVDA expert exam.
|
|
|
Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
I agree.
At any rate, win7 will be officially round for 3 years and 8x another 2 or so after that.
What will really change things is when 32 bit finally dies off to the extent where most things will be 64 bit.
Thats happening but there are still a lot of 32 bit softwares about, blind games and the like.
But yeah there are still a few using win8 and 7.
I still use 7, and I like it, I don't plan to get 10 just yet.
One of the main reasons I still use such an ancient os now bar ribbons and the like is we still have a user on an elderly machine using it.
That machine will soon go to the dogs its on its last circuit board and chip, so once I am the only one I guess I will use what everyone uses so well who knows.
With the way firefox has gone, similar to the way security software has gone, the way computers have gone and the way ms has gone though I am really going to have to figure out what exactly I need to upgrade for.
Bar the paypal and a few bank related things with waterfox I do, bar a few games, except for breakages and the like this time around I have almost 0 need to ever upgrade again to any new system as long as 1. security software works and my software in general is not effected to much.
Unlike xp which had so many issues security wize the fact is even if win7 stopped right now, we have most of the security we actually need for most things to an extent.
Its going to take longer for win7 and 8 to die than 10.
Rumers are that windows 11 comes out in 2019 but who knows if thats true or not.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 27/12/2017 12:54 a.m., Adriani Botez wrote: I agree. There are some really good aspects which have to be considered.
NV Access has to be really careful when it comes to finding the best time to drop support for older systems. In the case of win xp it was the right time since even most developing countries are not affected. But we should try to consider developing countries everytime when droping support is likely to happen. Otherwise the main part of the goal of NV Access will fail to be achieved. An extended support release would be great. For this, the team from NV Access definitely needs to get bigger, for example NV Access should provide a trainee program and should give developers the possibility to do an internship. This would give potential developers time to learn internal processes without having big responsibilities.
Best
Adriani
Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Am 26.12.2017 um 13:33 schrieb "coffeekingms@hotmail.com" <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>:
Hi
I agree with this message and it’s goals of having an NVDA app in the store. But I have some concerns as well. One of the most prominent being will ninite still be able to download and install this if NVDA transitions over to being store only? Second, this will pretty much eliminate any version of windows other than windows 10 and maybe 8 and 8.1, if the store apps on those can download the same apps windows 10 can, from using NVDA. This is good and not good. There are lots of people who have to use older versions of windows, even older than the minimum NVDA supports. How do we handle this. Simply saying get with the times and upgrade isn’t always possible and even when possible isn’t always what the user wants. I’m not trying to start any debates hear, and I think NVDA in the store is a good thing. But it has to be done right. Preferably an option in the windows installer, or code in windows itself to download NVDA on install would be nice. But there are problems with that as well. That would make it convenient for NVDA users but would make use of NVDA compulsory and would take away the users ability to choose which program they want. It’s a huge circle that’s not really solveable. Also, can NVDA still remain open source if it’s in the windows store? I don’t understand the legal issues or licensing issues an app goes through when being added to the store but I’m assuming that there is some MS code required to be in all apps and that code is probably not going to be open. Certainly I see no license field when installing apps, it is just assumed all apps are proprietary. NVDA should not give up it’s open source status, at least in my opinion. But I love the idea of making NVDA development easier. I myself have struggled with this for years. I’ve tried a total of 5 times now to learn enough python to jump in and help NVDA out, to become an active developer. Jamie teh sort of got me passionate about that when he gave me his blind people should be able to use computers for free speech. I’ve failed every single time. Not because python is complex, although it is, but because trying to jump from print “hello world” to NVDA code is a huge, huge, huge leap. I learned just enough to, with help, add media keycodes to NVDA so when you press play in learn mode, NVDA says play pause. But no more. NVDA was just too complex. I don’t understand how the windows store runs apps it downloads, not completely. What little I do understand about it is that it virtualizes them, isolating them from the rest of the system to keep viruses from getting out while somehow still allowing it access to what it needs to run. This is one major disadvantage of running windows, I can’t look at internals. Ms is too secretive and because of their licenses, others are just as secretive, pointing out clauses in licenses they agreed to. I’ve been told by windows experts about msdn and TechNet, but articles there are written with the assumption that you understand source code, or at least windows internals enough to read and understand them, and I don’t. I’ve gone off topic hear, so I’ll shut up now. I love the idea of NVDA being in the store. But, I still think we should support as many windows versions as we can. I know it’s a huge overhead and windows 10 is great and has all kinds of new technology and all that, but at the same time, people are going to use what they’re going to use. I think windows 7 is nearing the end of it’s life. Ms has already made it clear that new hardware, I believe sky lake and newer, will only run on windows 10. Then there’s secure boot and all that nonsense, so whether we like it or not everyone will be forced into staying on the newest windows eventually, and there I go again.
Thanks
Kendell Clark
Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:16:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
That is only the case because of rogue nations attempting to censor the web,
and some commercial interests prioritising their own content of course.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene New Zealand" <hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi
the thing that comes to mind is it will be searchable through the store
world wide on any persons computer running windows 10 compared to a
website.
|Gene nz
On 12/26/2017 12:51 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past
3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem
where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows
releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in
August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have
to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate
to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access
and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability
to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told
some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find
yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for
and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this
can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch
snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python
3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people
taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers,
and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to
help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence
the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure
things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons
installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as
add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code
before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi folks. I see a lot of issues and chat about doing this on github and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a language as one can. If somebody could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you
know!
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
--
[Image NVDA certified expert]
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you
are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a
copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out
which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed
the NVDA expert exam.
|
|
|
Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
Yes, I beg to differ here. Developers of code are thin on the ground, at least those who understand the complex world of accessibility, and adding a new version of nvda will mean that the persons on the coal face, so to speak will be spreading their talents thinly.
For my part, if its easy to make a version for Windows store etc, then fine, but I do not see what the point is of offering it if it cannot use add ons and be used as the real version is being used.
It might make things worse for the brand as people will say its not as good as the Shark. I'm assuming they will also offer a version in the store, and you can bet its been in bed with Microsoft for some time now.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bhavya shah" <bhavya.shah125@gmail.com> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:17 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why? Hi all,
What needs to be explicitly stated and understood is that the standard
version of NVDA that everyone uses now is not going anywhere. It will
continue being developed, used, and updated. the Windows Store version
of NVDA will not result in NV Access dropping support for any
operating system (since the standard version of NVDA will persist),
but will only open doors to new Windows versions such as Windows 10S
which can only run Store apps. All in all, news of this ongoing work
need not be of any concern or worry to the average user.
Thanks.
On 12/26/17, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Not all apps on Microsoft Store are closed source. NVDA will remain
open-source, as evidenced by the fact that source code edits to make NVDA a
partial Windows Store application is open-source and has been included in
next branch snapshots.
As for compatibility: the Windows Store (more properly, Project Centennial)
edition of NVDA is compatible with Windows 10 Version 1709 or later.
As for older operating systems (including old Windows 10 releases): as I
mentioned, both the regular and Windows Store versions will be available.
There are some restrictions on Windows Store version (although code is
still
open-source and is identical to desktop version), namely only installed
copy
will exist and no add-ons at this time.
Cheers,
Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
coffeekingms@hotmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 3:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi
I agree with this message and it's goals of having an NVDA app in the
store.
But I have some concerns as well. One of the most prominent being will
ninite still be able to download and install this if NVDA transitions over
to being store only? Second, this will pretty much eliminate any version of
windows other than windows 10 and maybe 8 and 8.1, if the store apps on
those can download the same apps windows 10 can, from using NVDA. This is
good and not good. There are lots of people who have to use older versions
of windows, even older than the minimum NVDA supports. How do we handle
this. Simply saying get with the times and upgrade isn't always possible
and
even when possible isn't always what the user wants. I'm not trying to
start
any debates hear, and I think NVDA in the store is a good thing. But it has
to be done right. Preferably an option in the windows installer, or code in
windows itself to download NVDA on install would be nice. But there are
problems with that as well. That would make it convenient for NVDA users
but
would make use of NVDA compulsory and would take away the users ability to
choose which program they want. It's a huge circle that's not really
solveable. Also, can NVDA still remain open source if it's in the windows
store? I don't understand the legal issues or licensing issues an app goes
through when being added to the store but I'm assuming that there is some
MS
code required to be in all apps and that code is probably not going to be
open. Certainly I see no license field when installing apps, it is just
assumed all apps are proprietary. NVDA should not give up it's open source
status, at least in my opinion. But I love the idea of making NVDA
development easier. I myself have struggled with this for years. I've tried
a total of 5 times now to learn enough python to jump in and help NVDA out,
to become an active developer. Jamie teh sort of got me passionate about
that when he gave me his blind people should be able to use computers for
free speech. I've failed every single time. Not because python is complex,
although it is, but because trying to jump from print "hello world" to NVDA
code is a huge, huge, huge leap. I learned just enough to, with help, add
media keycodes to NVDA so when you press play in learn mode, NVDA says play
pause. But no more. NVDA was just too complex. I don't understand how the
windows store runs apps it downloads, not completely. What little I do
understand about it is that it virtualizes them, isolating them from the
rest of the system to keep viruses from getting out while somehow still
allowing it access to what it needs to run. This is one major disadvantage
of running windows, I can't look at internals. Ms is too secretive and
because of their licenses, others are just as secretive, pointing out
clauses in licenses they agreed to. I've been told by windows experts about
msdn and TechNet, but articles there are written with the assumption that
you understand source code, or at least windows internals enough to read
and
understand them, and I don't. I've gone off topic hear, so I'll shut up
now.
I love the idea of NVDA being in the store. But, I still think we should
support as many windows versions as we can. I know it's a huge overhead and
windows 10 is great and has all kinds of new technology and all that, but
at
the same time, people are going to use what they're going to use. I think
windows 7 is nearing the end of it's life. Ms has already made it clear
that
new hardware, I believe sky lake and newer, will only run on windows 10.
Then there's secure boot and all that nonsense, so whether we like it or
not
everyone will be forced into staying on the newest windows eventually, and
there I go again.
Thanks
Kendell Clark
Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
_____
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io
<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> >
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:16:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
That is only the case because of rogue nations attempting to censor the
web,
and some commercial interests prioritising their own content of course.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> , putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene New Zealand" <hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz
<mailto:hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz> >
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi
the thing that comes to mind is it will be searchable through the store
world wide on any persons computer running windows 10 compared to a
website.
|Gene nz
On 12/26/2017 12:51 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past
3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a
long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem
where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA
while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows
releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in
August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have
to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate
to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version
1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access
and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on
an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability
to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told
some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find
yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for
and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this
can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch
snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will
mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python
3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people
taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers,
and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to
help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence
the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure
things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud
over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons
installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as
add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully,
some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community,
but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it
is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code
before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi folks. I see a lot of issues and chat about doing this on github and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a language as one can. If somebody
could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you
know!
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk%3cmailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk%3cmailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>
<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
--
[Image NVDA certified expert]
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you
are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a
copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out
which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed
the NVDA expert exam.
--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah
Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/
Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com
Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125
Mobile Number: +91 7506221750
|
|
|
Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Well I have no issues with the python2 branch of nvda.
I also see no problem if when it comes, a seperate page be made for the older nvdas supporting older python2 versions, ofcause the user would have to be aware that you can't get the latest updates, the latest releases for x os could be up there to there could be notifications for those to I guess.
At any rate if it all goes to custard, it should be easy to retrieve things from github directly, true a start user may have to jump through a entire load of hoops to get it but this aint jaws so its possible.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 27/12/2017 12:33 a.m., coffeekingms@hotmail.com wrote: Hi
I agree with this message and it’s goals of having an NVDA app in the store. But I have some concerns as well. One of the most prominent being will ninite still be able to download and install this if NVDA transitions over to being store only? Second, this will pretty much eliminate any version of windows other than windows 10 and maybe 8 and 8.1, if the store apps on those can download the same apps windows 10 can, from using NVDA. This is good and not good. There are lots of people who have to use older versions of windows, even older than the minimum NVDA supports. How do we handle this. Simply saying get with the times and upgrade isn’t always possible and even when possible isn’t always what the user wants. I’m not trying to start any debates hear, and I think NVDA in the store is a good thing. But it has to be done right. Preferably an option in the windows installer, or code in windows itself to download NVDA on install would be nice. But there are problems with that as well. That would make it convenient for NVDA users but would make use of NVDA compulsory and would take away the users ability to choose which program they want. It’s a huge circle that’s not really solveable. Also, can NVDA still remain open source if it’s in the windows store? I don’t understand the legal issues or licensing issues an app goes through when being added to the store but I’m assuming that there is some MS code required to be in all apps and that code is probably not going to be open. Certainly I see no license field when installing apps, it is just assumed all apps are proprietary. NVDA should not give up it’s open source status, at least in my opinion. But I love the idea of making NVDA development easier. I myself have struggled with this for years. I’ve tried a total of 5 times now to learn enough python to jump in and help NVDA out, to become an active developer. Jamie teh sort of got me passionate about that when he gave me his blind people should be able to use computers for free speech. I’ve failed every single time. Not because python is complex, although it is, but because trying to jump from print “hello world” to NVDA code is a huge, huge, huge leap. I learned just enough to, with help, add media keycodes to NVDA so when you press play in learn mode, NVDA says play pause. But no more. NVDA was just too complex. I don’t understand how the windows store runs apps it downloads, not completely. What little I do understand about it is that it virtualizes them, isolating them from the rest of the system to keep viruses from getting out while somehow still allowing it access to what it needs to run. This is one major disadvantage of running windows, I can’t look at internals. Ms is too secretive and because of their licenses, others are just as secretive, pointing out clauses in licenses they agreed to. I’ve been told by windows experts about msdn and TechNet, but articles there are written with the assumption that you understand source code, or at least windows internals enough to read and understand them, and I don’t. I’ve gone off topic hear, so I’ll shut up now. I love the idea of NVDA being in the store. But, I still think we should support as many windows versions as we can. I know it’s a huge overhead and windows 10 is great and has all kinds of new technology and all that, but at the same time, people are going to use what they’re going to use. I think windows 7 is nearing the end of it’s life. Ms has already made it clear that new hardware, I believe sky lake and newer, will only run on windows 10. Then there’s secure boot and all that nonsense, so whether we like it or not everyone will be forced into staying on the newest windows eventually, and there I go again.
Thanks
Kendell Clark
Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
________________________________
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:16:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
That is only the case because of rogue nations attempting to censor the web,
and some commercial interests prioritising their own content of course.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene New Zealand" <hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi
the thing that comes to mind is it will be searchable through the store
world wide on any persons computer running windows 10 compared to a
website.
|Gene nz
On 12/26/2017 12:51 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past
3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem
where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows
releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in
August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have
to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate
to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access
and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability
to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told
some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find
yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for
and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this
can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch
snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python
3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people
taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers,
and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to
help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence
the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure
things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons
installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as
add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code
before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi folks. I see a lot of issues and chat about doing this on github and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a language as one can. If somebody could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you
know!
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
--
[Image NVDA certified expert]
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you
are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a
copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out
which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed
the NVDA expert exam.
|
|
|
Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
However nobody has answered about what they are doing with Google Chrome which from waht I've read is exactly the same one as normal, just loaded via a stub loader so one assumes can have add ons.
I don't get the add on restriction. You should be able to decide, wherever you download it whether you are running it in the protected environment or not, if not then add ons should be useable. Without add ons in my view, many pieces of software are unusable. and what about things like support for Outlook Express/live mail. Many people here use this software, but Microsoft hate us doing it but seemingly are unable to offer us a working alternative except the mail only program which keeps on getting broken in new versions of windows, they are as we say in South London having a laugh.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:08 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why? Hi,
Not all apps on Microsoft Store are closed source. NVDA will remain
open-source, as evidenced by the fact that source code edits to make NVDA a
partial Windows Store application is open-source and has been included in
next branch snapshots.
As for compatibility: the Windows Store (more properly, Project Centennial)
edition of NVDA is compatible with Windows 10 Version 1709 or later.
As for older operating systems (including old Windows 10 releases): as I
mentioned, both the regular and Windows Store versions will be available.
There are some restrictions on Windows Store version (although code is still
open-source and is identical to desktop version), namely only installed copy
will exist and no add-ons at this time.
Cheers,
Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
coffeekingms@hotmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 3:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi
I agree with this message and it's goals of having an NVDA app in the store.
But I have some concerns as well. One of the most prominent being will
ninite still be able to download and install this if NVDA transitions over
to being store only? Second, this will pretty much eliminate any version of
windows other than windows 10 and maybe 8 and 8.1, if the store apps on
those can download the same apps windows 10 can, from using NVDA. This is
good and not good. There are lots of people who have to use older versions
of windows, even older than the minimum NVDA supports. How do we handle
this. Simply saying get with the times and upgrade isn't always possible and
even when possible isn't always what the user wants. I'm not trying to start
any debates hear, and I think NVDA in the store is a good thing. But it has
to be done right. Preferably an option in the windows installer, or code in
windows itself to download NVDA on install would be nice. But there are
problems with that as well. That would make it convenient for NVDA users but
would make use of NVDA compulsory and would take away the users ability to
choose which program they want. It's a huge circle that's not really
solveable. Also, can NVDA still remain open source if it's in the windows
store? I don't understand the legal issues or licensing issues an app goes
through when being added to the store but I'm assuming that there is some MS
code required to be in all apps and that code is probably not going to be
open. Certainly I see no license field when installing apps, it is just
assumed all apps are proprietary. NVDA should not give up it's open source
status, at least in my opinion. But I love the idea of making NVDA
development easier. I myself have struggled with this for years. I've tried
a total of 5 times now to learn enough python to jump in and help NVDA out,
to become an active developer. Jamie teh sort of got me passionate about
that when he gave me his blind people should be able to use computers for
free speech. I've failed every single time. Not because python is complex,
although it is, but because trying to jump from print "hello world" to NVDA
code is a huge, huge, huge leap. I learned just enough to, with help, add
media keycodes to NVDA so when you press play in learn mode, NVDA says play
pause. But no more. NVDA was just too complex. I don't understand how the
windows store runs apps it downloads, not completely. What little I do
understand about it is that it virtualizes them, isolating them from the
rest of the system to keep viruses from getting out while somehow still
allowing it access to what it needs to run. This is one major disadvantage
of running windows, I can't look at internals. Ms is too secretive and
because of their licenses, others are just as secretive, pointing out
clauses in licenses they agreed to. I've been told by windows experts about
msdn and TechNet, but articles there are written with the assumption that
you understand source code, or at least windows internals enough to read and
understand them, and I don't. I've gone off topic hear, so I'll shut up now.
I love the idea of NVDA being in the store. But, I still think we should
support as many windows versions as we can. I know it's a huge overhead and
windows 10 is great and has all kinds of new technology and all that, but at
the same time, people are going to use what they're going to use. I think
windows 7 is nearing the end of it's life. Ms has already made it clear that
new hardware, I believe sky lake and newer, will only run on windows 10.
Then there's secure boot and all that nonsense, so whether we like it or not
everyone will be forced into staying on the newest windows eventually, and
there I go again.
Thanks
Kendell Clark
Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
_____
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io
<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> >
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:16:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
That is only the case because of rogue nations attempting to censor the web,
and some commercial interests prioritising their own content of course.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> , putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene New Zealand" <hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz
<mailto:hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz> >
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi
the thing that comes to mind is it will be searchable through the store
world wide on any persons computer running windows 10 compared to a
website.
|Gene nz
On 12/26/2017 12:51 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past
3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem
where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows
releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in
August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have
to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate
to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access
and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability
to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told
some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find
yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for
and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this
can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch
snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python
3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people
taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers,
and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to
help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence
the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure
things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons
installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as
add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code
before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi folks. I see a lot of issues and chat about doing this on github and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a language as one can. If somebody could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you
know!
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk%3cmailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk%3cmailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>
<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
--
[Image NVDA certified expert]
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you
are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a
copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out
which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed
the NVDA expert exam.
|
|
|
Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Having a student version of windows which is what s is is well interesting.
However for a full user you will either want to upgrade at cost to pro or avoid s completely.
But for a student or something that just wants a tablet and really doesn't need the extra stuff maybe an old person this may work.
Its just that we are all normal users and geeks here.
I for one will be getting nvda from the usual place.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 26/12/2017 11:05 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote: Yes, But what is the actual point of having nvda in the Windows store in the first place?
From what I can see, most users will need to run add ons, which will mean running it as a normal app, and in that case they might as well get it from nvaccess.
The only people who will benefit from it being in the store are those running Windows 10S, the rubbish restricted hands tied behind back version of the operating system. Surely in this context, Narrator itself is going to have better access, being part of the operating system, albeit a bit slow and clunky.
I also don't understand how, for example, Google Chrome can actually be allowed to have a mere stub to load in normal Chrome in the Microsoft store.
If that is a way around it, why are we bothering to do all the work? One assumes Chrome is going to be the same as nvda, in that it can either run with its hands tied or normally in the same code. I'm sure this whole mess with Firefox is due to the same strange concept of Microsofts.
As I said in a previous post, most people are distrustful of Microsofts real agenda here, and so many would choose to continue with normal Windows, Normal Office and normal apps.
The other down side of so called universal apps and the restrictions of the system is that they seem to have abandoned a user interface that is the same for all. Its a ruddy free for all in this area, making apps that run under it really hard to learn as one has to throw all knowledge out and then try to understand what a particular author has in fact done.
I'm not having a go at nvda here, as we have to live in the world as it is, its just that for many blind people we feel that the rug is being pulled out from below us just as we are getting equal access.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past 3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python 3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers, and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi folks. I see a lot of issues and chat about doing this on github and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a language as one can. If somebody could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you know!
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
.
|
|
|
Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
Of course if there were enough users out there who used XP, there is nothing to stop them taking the last known working snaps and branching it out as a different flavour if they really want to, but this might of course cause more confusion than it helps people. I'm not aware all that many people considered the firefox bug serious enough to change the building methods of nvda. From what we now know of Firefox's decision making, we might as well have left it well alone!
The speed of developments in computing seems to have increased far beyond the need to keep things working into the realms of change for its own sake, mainly driven by Microsoft here.
I tend to think that if the alternate groups could get their act together under one product now is the time to have an alternative to windows that does not have 50,000 different names and desktops with all sorts of apis.
Just a few thoughts.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why? I agree. There are some really good aspects which have to be considered. NV Access has to be really careful when it comes to finding the best time to drop support for older systems. In the case of win xp it was the right time since even most developing countries are not affected. But we should try to consider developing countries everytime when droping support is likely to happen. Otherwise the main part of the goal of NV Access will fail to be achieved. An extended support release would be great. For this, the team from NV Access definitely needs to get bigger, for example NV Access should provide a trainee program and should give developers the possibility to do an internship. This would give potential developers time to learn internal processes without having big responsibilities. Best Adriani Von meinem iPhone gesendet Am 26.12.2017 um 13:33 schrieb "coffeekingms@hotmail.com" <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>:
Hi
I agree with this message and it’s goals of having an NVDA app in the store. But I have some concerns as well. One of the most prominent being will ninite still be able to download and install this if NVDA transitions over to being store only? Second, this will pretty much eliminate any version of windows other than windows 10 and maybe 8 and 8.1, if the store apps on those can download the same apps windows 10 can, from using NVDA. This is good and not good. There are lots of people who have to use older versions of windows, even older than the minimum NVDA supports. How do we handle this. Simply saying get with the times and upgrade isn’t always possible and even when possible isn’t always what the user wants. I’m not trying to start any debates hear, and I think NVDA in the store is a good thing. But it has to be done right. Preferably an option in the windows installer, or code in windows itself to download NVDA on install would be nice. But there are problems with that as well. That would make it convenient for NVDA users but would make use of NVDA compulsory and would take away the users ability to choose which program they want. It’s a huge circle that’s not really solveable. Also, can NVDA still remain open source if it’s in the windows store? I don’t understand the legal issues or licensing issues an app goes through when being added to the store but I’m assuming that there is some MS code required to be in all apps and that code is probably not going to be open. Certainly I see no license field when installing apps, it is just assumed all apps are proprietary. NVDA should not give up it’s open source status, at least in my opinion. But I love the idea of making NVDA development easier. I myself have struggled with this for years. I’ve tried a total of 5 times now to learn enough python to jump in and help NVDA out, to become an active developer. Jamie teh sort of got me passionate about that when he gave me his blind people should be able to use computers for free speech. I’ve failed every single time. Not because python is complex, although it is, but because trying to jump from print “hello world” to NVDA code is a huge, huge, huge leap. I learned just enough to, with help, add media keycodes to NVDA so when you press play in learn mode, NVDA says play pause. But no more. NVDA was just too complex. I don’t understand how the windows store runs apps it downloads, not completely. What little I do understand about it is that it virtualizes them, isolating them from the rest of the system to keep viruses from getting out while somehow still allowing it access to what it needs to run. This is one major disadvantage of running windows, I can’t look at internals. Ms is too secretive and because of their licenses, others are just as secretive, pointing out clauses in licenses they agreed to. I’ve been told by windows experts about msdn and TechNet, but articles there are written with the assumption that you understand source code, or at least windows internals enough to read and understand them, and I don’t. I’ve gone off topic hear, so I’ll shut up now. I love the idea of NVDA being in the store. But, I still think we should support as many windows versions as we can. I know it’s a huge overhead and windows 10 is great and has all kinds of new technology and all that, but at the same time, people are going to use what they’re going to use. I think windows 7 is nearing the end of it’s life. Ms has already made it clear that new hardware, I believe sky lake and newer, will only run on windows 10. Then there’s secure boot and all that nonsense, so whether we like it or not everyone will be forced into staying on the newest windows eventually, and there I go again.
Thanks
Kendell Clark
Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:16:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
That is only the case because of rogue nations attempting to censor the web,
and some commercial interests prioritising their own content of course.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene New Zealand" <hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi
the thing that comes to mind is it will be searchable through the store
world wide on any persons computer running windows 10 compared to a
website.
|Gene nz
On 12/26/2017 12:51 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past
3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem
where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows
releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in
August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have
to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate
to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access
and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability
to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told
some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find
yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for
and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this
can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch
snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python
3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people
taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers,
and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to
help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence
the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure
things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons
installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as
add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code
before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi folks. I see a lot of issues and chat about doing this on github and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a language as one can. If somebody could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you
know!
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
--
[Image NVDA certified expert]
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you
are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a
copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out
which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed
the NVDA expert exam.
|
|
|
Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
Yes well, Hopefully as was mentioned or at least as I understood it, a version of NVDA which could function in both cases would be preferable.
Also they may say Windows 7 is old but one has to say that just like with XP there will be many using it for years.
Indeed I see no indication of XP completely going away. This is why nvda 2017.3 will be downloadable for some time to come. What we need to make sure of is that the older add ons that work with it get preserved and made available easily. I think all people will have to accept that people who do not need the latest cutting edge software will use Windows 7 until the hardware dies.
Indeed, despite threats, I notice that Microsoft are still updating MSSE on both xp and on 7 quite happily.
I suspect a lot of the updates are exactly the same as defender uses in any case.
What clarity we need here is a spokesman for NV Access and one from Microsoft. I'm assuming if Google have been allowed to put in a stub loader in the store for Chrome then they must have the same code by choice running in both environments.
I don't think it will be as divisive as it seems, at least not yet. Trying to stop hacks is just being paranoid. Just like with you house if somebody wants to get in they will find a way, so I'm just wondering why Microsoft are making so much of this. Is it all Hens teeth and snake oil?
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 11:33 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why? Hi I agree with this message and it’s goals of having an NVDA app in the store. But I have some concerns as well. One of the most prominent being will ninite still be able to download and install this if NVDA transitions over to being store only? Second, this will pretty much eliminate any version of windows other than windows 10 and maybe 8 and 8.1, if the store apps on those can download the same apps windows 10 can, from using NVDA. This is good and not good. There are lots of people who have to use older versions of windows, even older than the minimum NVDA supports. How do we handle this. Simply saying get with the times and upgrade isn’t always possible and even when possible isn’t always what the user wants. I’m not trying to start any debates hear, and I think NVDA in the store is a good thing. But it has to be done right. Preferably an option in the windows installer, or code in windows itself to download NVDA on install would be nice. But there are problems with that as well. That would make it convenient for NVDA users but would make use of NVDA compulsory and would take away the users ability to choose which program they want. It’s a huge circle that’s not really solveable. Also, can NVDA still remain open source if it’s in the windows store? I don’t understand the legal issues or licensing issues an app goes through when being added to the store but I’m assuming that there is some MS code required to be in all apps and that code is probably not going to be open. Certainly I see no license field when installing apps, it is just assumed all apps are proprietary. NVDA should not give up it’s open source status, at least in my opinion. But I love the idea of making NVDA development easier. I myself have struggled with this for years. I’ve tried a total of 5 times now to learn enough python to jump in and help NVDA out, to become an active developer. Jamie teh sort of got me passionate about that when he gave me his blind people should be able to use computers for free speech. I’ve failed every single time. Not because python is complex, although it is, but because trying to jump from print “hello world” to NVDA code is a huge, huge, huge leap. I learned just enough to, with help, add media keycodes to NVDA so when you press play in learn mode, NVDA says play pause. But no more. NVDA was just too complex. I don’t understand how the windows store runs apps it downloads, not completely. What little I do understand about it is that it virtualizes them, isolating them from the rest of the system to keep viruses from getting out while somehow still allowing it access to what it needs to run. This is one major disadvantage of running windows, I can’t look at internals. Ms is too secretive and because of their licenses, others are just as secretive, pointing out clauses in licenses they agreed to. I’ve been told by windows experts about msdn and TechNet, but articles there are written with the assumption that you understand source code, or at least windows internals enough to read and understand them, and I don’t. I’ve gone off topic hear, so I’ll shut up now. I love the idea of NVDA being in the store. But, I still think we should support as many windows versions as we can. I know it’s a huge overhead and windows 10 is great and has all kinds of new technology and all that, but at the same time, people are going to use what they’re going to use. I think windows 7 is nearing the end of it’s life. Ms has already made it clear that new hardware, I believe sky lake and newer, will only run on windows 10. Then there’s secure boot and all that nonsense, so whether we like it or not everyone will be forced into staying on the newest windows eventually, and there I go again. Thanks Kendell Clark Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook ________________________________ From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:16:55 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why? That is only the case because of rogue nations attempting to censor the web, and some commercial interests prioritising their own content of course. Brian bglists@blueyonder.co.uk Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene New Zealand" <hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why? Hi
the thing that comes to mind is it will be searchable through the store
world wide on any persons computer running windows 10 compared to a
website.
|Gene nz
On 12/26/2017 12:51 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past
3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem
where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows
releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in
August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have
to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate
to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access
and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability
to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told
some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find
yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for
and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this
can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch
snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python
3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people
taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers,
and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to
help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence
the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure
things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons
installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as
add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code
before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi folks. I see a lot of issues and chat about doing this on github and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a language as one can. If somebody could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you
know!
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
--
[Image NVDA certified expert]
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you
are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a
copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out
which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed
the NVDA expert exam.
|
|
|
Re: Legally binding Seasons Greetings to all NVDA Users.
Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
I think its been written and modified by various people over a couple of years, but I'd not read this version before.
I'm coming back as a Lawyer if reincarnation is real, but I suspect its just a brand of condensed milk...:-)
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 1:59 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Legally binding Seasons Greetings to all NVDA Users. In case people are curious, I'm not sure what I intended to say when I used the word attempts in this clause, which, I'll add, is not a Santa Claus Clause. (grin) "A certain amount of respect for list rules and appropriate attempts should be given ..." So just disregard the phrase "and attempts". I probably didn't have to comment on this but it may strike some people as odd, as originally written and I value clear writing. therefore, this comment. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 7:49 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Legally binding Seasons Greetings to all NVDA Users. There are times when the owner and I will have different opinions about what is allowed. Some of these decisions are not completely clear cut. My reasoning was that the post I objected to didn't fall into the seasons greetings category, which has been allowed on list for a long time. I was also worried that allowing it might result in a lot of completely off topic posts and perhaps many comments to be sent to the list at Christmas time each Christmas season. I suspect lots of people would like to send such messages, either of their own writings or something they are familiar with such as a short piece of prose or a poem. The owner may have a different view. He allowed something I wouldn't have. In cases where people want to know if something will be allowed, they may write to just me if they wish but that means that I may rule something as inadmissable and the owner would have ruled the other way. It's in your own interest to use the owner's address when asking posting permission questions. The owner's opinion, if he expresses one, is the controling opinion. I should also add that another reason I objected to the post I objected too recently was that permission wasn't sought to post it when in my opinion, it was not at all certain such permission would have been given. It was posted without asking the owner and/or moderator. In the current case, permission was asked. A certain amount of respect for list rules and appropriate attempts should be given, as was done in the current case. The address to write to if you want a better chance of having something on the border approved is: nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io If the previous poster had written to this address, I have no idea what the owner would have ruled. That is what should have been done and what I hope people do with borderline questions as to what is acceptable. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Antony Stone Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 7:20 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Legally binding Seasons Greetings to all NVDA Users. Hm. Considering Gene's comments to Lino on Sunday concerning "The Story of Rudolph", I'm extremely surprised that you posted this to the list. Antony. On Tuesday 26 December 2017 at 12:03:53, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote: With a nod to similar texts seen elsewhere on the web today. etc..... -- The words "e pluribus unum" on the Great Seal of the United States are from a poem by Virgil entitled "Moretum", which is about cheese and garlic salad dressing. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me.
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Re: Change.org Petition: Make Movies Accessible to the Blind
Giles Turnbull
I think I began using DVD Audio Extractor because of what you said about it in a thead a while ago, and I love it! I finally ran into an encrypted Blu Ray disc the other day and found a program called AnyDVD which removes any encryption and region blocks, making the discs accessible to DVD Audio Converter, but it's an expensive piece of software at $60 per year or $100+ for lifetime use. I am not likely to have any more encrypted discs for a while so the 21 day trial version should do me fine for now, but you're right that it can be an expensive process for a blind person to watch a regular DVD which isn't far from breaching our human rights ;)
So thanks again, Shaun, for enlightening me about DVD Audio Extractor :)
Giles
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Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment
JM Casey <crystallogic@...>
Yeah, that earphone jack thing is an extreme example of exactly what you are
talking about. I don't think it's quite like that in MS's case. I mean, the
option is still there; you just have to use command line (or a batch script)
to do it. I personally feel it would be good if people were less shy about
using the command line, though encouraging people to be better with their
computers was admittedly probably not Microsoft's intention.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io Sent: December 26, 2017 5:10 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment Thanks, clear as mud. Not from you but nobody seems to have asked Microsoft what on earth they are playing at. Its damn stupid to remove stuff people use, even if its seen as a legacy system people have reasons for using these and making them either use batch or command line or third party apps is just plain stupid. Its kind of like when apple took away its earphone jack on their phones. Just a bonkers decision. Brian bglists@blueyonder.co.uk Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment Hi,
FAT32 can format drives up to 2 terabytes maximum, and 32 GB is the
artificial limit imposed. ReFS (Resilient File System), contrary to
what you may have read on Wikipedia, is not Microsoft's version of
RAID (Redundant Array of Independent Disks). The file system structure
is a bit similar in concept but it is not RAID, as ReFS is designed
for large storage pools and for data integrity on those pools (you
can't boot from a ReFS volume, and you can't read ReFS formatted pools
unless you have Windows 10 Version
1709
or Server 1709).
Cheers,
Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
coffeekingms@hotmail.com
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 3:57 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment
Hi
I'm not absolutely positive the fat32 feature is gone, but I *think*
it is.
My reasons are because on flash drives, only the XFat and ntfs options
are visible, and on external hard drives, or more correctly, external
hard drives above a certain size, what that size is I'm not sure, only
the ntfs option is usable, along with something called reFS, which
Wikipedia says is microsoft's proprietary implementation of raid.
There are tools to do this I have no doubt, several people have
pointed out programs. My reason for posting it hear was because this
was able to be done out of the box before and it isn't now. I'm
puzzled by the removal, if it is a removal. It is always possible NVDA
suddenly can't see the option, and I'll check with narrator really
quickly but I doubt that's the problem. It's either deliberate or a
bug. If it is a bug it's a recent one, because I don't remember having
this problem a month or so ago, so that narrows down the list of
updates that could've caused it. But windows isn't . well it's not as
open as I'm used to so it's harder to debug. It can be done but when
you're used to Linux and it's internals being available . That's
another reason I want to get involved with NVDA development, or at
least involved in the community. I want to get as comfortable with
windows as I am with Linux, to the point where I'm able to essentially
take it apart to fix if needed.
Right now I'd say I'm barely above an average user with windows. If that.
Thanks
Kendell Clark
Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
_____
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > on behalf of
Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io
<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> >
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 4:11:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment
Yes a friend has a big drive formatted in some way, but it would not
play on the stick player. take the data off format it to fat32, copy
it back and hey presto. it works, though I'd not go for his choice in
music.
I'm glad the batch file worked, and as you say there are programs out
there
that do this, however one has to wonder why Msoft would remove a
normal format mode from the gui. are we absolutely sure its gone, and
its not just an nvda issue that cannot see the button or checkbox?
Also does the program also do a verify?
I note that windows says it is doing it, but I have my doubts that its
doing more than reading the fat.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk> Sent via
blueyonder.
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Giles Turnbull" <giles.turnbull@gmail.com
<mailto:giles.turnbull@gmail.com> >
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment
I ran into this problem when I replaced my Booksense book reader with
a Blaze earlier this year. I decided I'd buy a 128Gb SD card, which I
quicly found the Blaze couldn't handle. I knew the Booksense was
limited to 32Gb and later found out the Blaze is can handle max 64Gb.
I found that out when I emailed HIMS because I was fed up at having an
unusable 128Gb drive!
They suggested FAT32 formatter with a GUI that worked fine for me with
NVDA.
It is called guiformat.exe and I found it with a quick Google search.
It has
a combo box with all available drives and lets you choose the
allocation unit size and lets you label the drive with whatever name you like.
My Blaze ET handles the FAT32 formatted 128Gb SD card fine.
Giles
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Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment
JM Casey <crystallogic@...>
Oh. Yes, I did, in fact, the day before I responded to this particular post.
I don't always read these mails in proper order. I probably should. :D
Pretty cool, though. I guess the main advantage is that you could put it on
your desktop and such.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io Sent: December 26, 2017 5:24 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment Did you not see my batch file. This was how that was done, but with a bit more human interface for the unwary. Brian bglists@blueyonder.co.uk Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message ----- From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@ca.inter.net> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 8:50 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment Nice.
Why don't you all use the good ole' "format" command though? It allows
for all filesystems and couldn't be similar. You don't even have to
remember the sswitches - the help screen describes everything.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Stephen
Sent: December 24, 2017 10:53 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment
YOu can format drives to fat32 with a 3rd party program, it's freeware.
http://www.ridgecrop.demon.co.uk/guiformat.htm
At 09:23 PM 12/24/2017, you wrote:
Hi
You're better at this than I am, I couldn't even have cobbled this
together. I can write a bash script to do it in Linux, since I know
the cintax better and I know the command line programs that format
stuff, but in windows? Not a chance. I never even considered that this
was a bug, I assumed ms deliberately removed it hoping people will
migrate over to the newer file systems. Which would be fine except
that most blindy devices only support a limited set of them, mostly
windows ones, or at least OS agnostic ones like fat and fat32. I do
wish they would add ext2/3/4, btrfs, xfs, and some other Linux file
systems as native support. It would go well with microsoft's supposed
mission of supporting the competition. It would go right in with wsl,
windows subsystem for Linux and their support for gmail and iCloud
email accounts. Whether it will happen though is anyone's guess. I
didn't think they'd ever make windows installation accessible and when
they did, they did it right, I have to say. Except for Cortana, that
over rides narrator until you turn it off, and I've asked them to
disable the speech intro if narrator is on. Still allow Cortana
functionality, just disable the perky speech intro in favor of
narrators, since it announces the intro anyway.
Thanks
Kendell Clark
Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
----------
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:41:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment
It does give a list no, but I guess some kind of addition could be
made. I have tweaked my system so that the drive letter is always e or
f, but the one I need to not format is m .
Its very quick, some might say lazy. Ahem. I don't suggest I'm any
good at this stuff, just know enough to get by... :-)
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment
Hi
Thanks a lot for that little script, it was exactly what I was looking
for.
Something to put on my desktop to to click on when I get a new flash
drive.
Looking at the code, it seems to ask which stick to use, but does it
actually give a list of sticks, or do you need to provide the drive
letter?
Also, a prompt for the volume label or name would be nice, but I think
I can edit the script to add that since the language doesn't seem too
hard.
Something like /p "volume name?" or similar?
Thanks
Kendell Clark
Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
________________________________
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 2:56:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment
Just in case I was thinking of this from my Windows 7 machine.
Does this work in 10?
@echo off
set /p drive= Which stick should I use?
echo Please wait...
format %drive%:/fs:fat32/v:tested
pause
exit
Brian
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io"
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment
Hmm, this would be important to know as the majority of audio
players for the blind that play ram sticks will not read ntfs.
I'm sure you know most of these players only work on the order of
files written, not on the file names as well.
It seems a little odd to remove such an option.
Luckily most players can read fat, and most generic sticks I see
are pre formatted in that way.
Tell me, what about the command line way of formatting?
If you don't know the syntax I can get it for you.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:25 AM
Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment
Hi all
This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered
after unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls
talking book player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates
installed, only has the XFat, and ntfs options available when
formatting the drive. The digital player can read neither of these
file systems. I've submitted feedback to ms asking for fat32 to be
restored but who knows if it will happen. This is a problem because
unless the dp's firmware is updated, extremely unlikely, people who
use windows 10 won't be able to format new flash drives or reformat
old ones without using another program, which I'm sure exist. They
won't be able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the functionality. This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard drives have
only the ntfs option. I'm posting hear because I'm not subscribed
to the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it's off topic, but I
wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide
workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.
Thanks
Kendell Clark
Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
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Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi all,
What needs to be explicitly stated and understood is that the standard
version of NVDA that everyone uses now is not going anywhere. It will
continue being developed, used, and updated. the Windows Store version
of NVDA will not result in NV Access dropping support for any
operating system (since the standard version of NVDA will persist),
but will only open doors to new Windows versions such as Windows 10S
which can only run Store apps. All in all, news of this ongoing work
need not be of any concern or worry to the average user.
Thanks.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 12/26/17, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote: Hi,
Not all apps on Microsoft Store are closed source. NVDA will remain
open-source, as evidenced by the fact that source code edits to make NVDA a
partial Windows Store application is open-source and has been included in
next branch snapshots.
As for compatibility: the Windows Store (more properly, Project Centennial)
edition of NVDA is compatible with Windows 10 Version 1709 or later.
As for older operating systems (including old Windows 10 releases): as I
mentioned, both the regular and Windows Store versions will be available.
There are some restrictions on Windows Store version (although code is
still
open-source and is identical to desktop version), namely only installed
copy
will exist and no add-ons at this time.
Cheers,
Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
coffeekingms@hotmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 3:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi
I agree with this message and it's goals of having an NVDA app in the
store.
But I have some concerns as well. One of the most prominent being will
ninite still be able to download and install this if NVDA transitions over
to being store only? Second, this will pretty much eliminate any version of
windows other than windows 10 and maybe 8 and 8.1, if the store apps on
those can download the same apps windows 10 can, from using NVDA. This is
good and not good. There are lots of people who have to use older versions
of windows, even older than the minimum NVDA supports. How do we handle
this. Simply saying get with the times and upgrade isn't always possible
and
even when possible isn't always what the user wants. I'm not trying to
start
any debates hear, and I think NVDA in the store is a good thing. But it has
to be done right. Preferably an option in the windows installer, or code in
windows itself to download NVDA on install would be nice. But there are
problems with that as well. That would make it convenient for NVDA users
but
would make use of NVDA compulsory and would take away the users ability to
choose which program they want. It's a huge circle that's not really
solveable. Also, can NVDA still remain open source if it's in the windows
store? I don't understand the legal issues or licensing issues an app goes
through when being added to the store but I'm assuming that there is some
MS
code required to be in all apps and that code is probably not going to be
open. Certainly I see no license field when installing apps, it is just
assumed all apps are proprietary. NVDA should not give up it's open source
status, at least in my opinion. But I love the idea of making NVDA
development easier. I myself have struggled with this for years. I've tried
a total of 5 times now to learn enough python to jump in and help NVDA out,
to become an active developer. Jamie teh sort of got me passionate about
that when he gave me his blind people should be able to use computers for
free speech. I've failed every single time. Not because python is complex,
although it is, but because trying to jump from print "hello world" to NVDA
code is a huge, huge, huge leap. I learned just enough to, with help, add
media keycodes to NVDA so when you press play in learn mode, NVDA says play
pause. But no more. NVDA was just too complex. I don't understand how the
windows store runs apps it downloads, not completely. What little I do
understand about it is that it virtualizes them, isolating them from the
rest of the system to keep viruses from getting out while somehow still
allowing it access to what it needs to run. This is one major disadvantage
of running windows, I can't look at internals. Ms is too secretive and
because of their licenses, others are just as secretive, pointing out
clauses in licenses they agreed to. I've been told by windows experts about
msdn and TechNet, but articles there are written with the assumption that
you understand source code, or at least windows internals enough to read
and
understand them, and I don't. I've gone off topic hear, so I'll shut up
now.
I love the idea of NVDA being in the store. But, I still think we should
support as many windows versions as we can. I know it's a huge overhead and
windows 10 is great and has all kinds of new technology and all that, but
at
the same time, people are going to use what they're going to use. I think
windows 7 is nearing the end of it's life. Ms has already made it clear
that
new hardware, I believe sky lake and newer, will only run on windows 10.
Then there's secure boot and all that nonsense, so whether we like it or
not
everyone will be forced into staying on the newest windows eventually, and
there I go again.
Thanks
Kendell Clark
Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
_____
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io
<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> >
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:16:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
That is only the case because of rogue nations attempting to censor the
web,
and some commercial interests prioritising their own content of course.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
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Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene New Zealand" <hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz
<mailto:hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz> >
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi
the thing that comes to mind is it will be searchable through the store
world wide on any persons computer running windows 10 compared to a
website.
|Gene nz
On 12/26/2017 12:51 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past
3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a
long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem
where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA
while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows
releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in
August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have
to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate
to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version
1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access
and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on
an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability
to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told
some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find
yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for
and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this
can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch
snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will
mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python
3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people
taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers,
and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to
help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence
the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure
things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud
over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons
installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as
add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully,
some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community,
but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it
is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code
before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi folks. I see a lot of issues and chat about doing this on github and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a language as one can. If somebody
could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you
know!
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk%3cmailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk%3cmailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>
<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
--
[Image NVDA certified expert]
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you
are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a
copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out
which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed
the NVDA expert exam.
-- Best Regards Bhavya Shah Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/Contacting Me E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91 7506221750
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Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
Hi, Not all apps on Microsoft Store are closed source. NVDA will remain open-source, as evidenced by the fact that source code edits to make NVDA a partial Windows Store application is open-source and has been included in next branch snapshots. As for compatibility: the Windows Store (more properly, Project Centennial) edition of NVDA is compatible with Windows 10 Version 1709 or later. As for older operating systems (including old Windows 10 releases): as I mentioned, both the regular and Windows Store versions will be available. There are some restrictions on Windows Store version (although code is still open-source and is identical to desktop version), namely only installed copy will exist and no add-ons at this time. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of coffeekingms@... Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 3:34 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why? Hi I agree with this message and it’s goals of having an NVDA app in the store. But I have some concerns as well. One of the most prominent being will ninite still be able to download and install this if NVDA transitions over to being store only? Second, this will pretty much eliminate any version of windows other than windows 10 and maybe 8 and 8.1, if the store apps on those can download the same apps windows 10 can, from using NVDA. This is good and not good. There are lots of people who have to use older versions of windows, even older than the minimum NVDA supports. How do we handle this. Simply saying get with the times and upgrade isn’t always possible and even when possible isn’t always what the user wants. I’m not trying to start any debates hear, and I think NVDA in the store is a good thing. But it has to be done right. Preferably an option in the windows installer, or code in windows itself to download NVDA on install would be nice. But there are problems with that as well. That would make it convenient for NVDA users but would make use of NVDA compulsory and would take away the users ability to choose which program they want. It’s a huge circle that’s not really solveable. Also, can NVDA still remain open source if it’s in the windows store? I don’t understand the legal issues or licensing issues an app goes through when being added to the store but I’m assuming that there is some MS code required to be in all apps and that code is probably not going to be open. Certainly I see no license field when installing apps, it is just assumed all apps are proprietary. NVDA should not give up it’s open source status, at least in my opinion. But I love the idea of making NVDA development easier. I myself have struggled with this for years. I’ve tried a total of 5 times now to learn enough python to jump in and help NVDA out, to become an active developer. Jamie teh sort of got me passionate about that when he gave me his blind people should be able to use computers for free speech. I’ve failed every single time. Not because python is complex, although it is, but because trying to jump from print “hello world” to NVDA code is a huge, huge, huge leap. I learned just enough to, with help, add media keycodes to NVDA so when you press play in learn mode, NVDA says play pause. But no more. NVDA was just too complex. I don’t understand how the windows store runs apps it downloads, not completely. What little I do understand about it is that it virtualizes them, isolating them from the rest of the system to keep viruses from getting out while somehow still allowing it access to what it needs to run. This is one major disadvantage of running windows, I can’t look at internals. Ms is too secretive and because of their licenses, others are just as secretive, pointing out clauses in licenses they agreed to. I’ve been told by windows experts about msdn and TechNet, but articles there are written with the assumption that you understand source code, or at least windows internals enough to read and understand them, and I don’t. I’ve gone off topic hear, so I’ll shut up now. I love the idea of NVDA being in the store. But, I still think we should support as many windows versions as we can. I know it’s a huge overhead and windows 10 is great and has all kinds of new technology and all that, but at the same time, people are going to use what they’re going to use. I think windows 7 is nearing the end of it’s life. Ms has already made it clear that new hardware, I believe sky lake and newer, will only run on windows 10. Then there’s secure boot and all that nonsense, so whether we like it or not everyone will be forced into staying on the newest windows eventually, and there I go again. Thanks Kendell Clark Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
That is only the case because of rogue nations attempting to censor the web,
and some commercial interests prioritising their own content of course.
Brian
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene New Zealand" <hurrikennyandopo@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
> Hi
>
>
> the thing that comes to mind is it will be searchable through the store
> world wide on any persons computer running windows 10 compared to a
> website.
>
>
> |Gene nz
>
>
> On 12/26/2017 12:51 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
> Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past
> 3
> AM my time)...
> A bit of explaining is in order:
> Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
> time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem
> where
> NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
> focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
> using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows
> releases.
> Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in
> August
> 2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
> versions.
> Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
> use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have
> to
> go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate
> to
> a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
> (Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access
> and
> other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
> update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability
> to
> compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
> Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told
> some
> people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
> hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
> solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find
> yourself
> opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for
> and
> installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
> also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
> version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
> development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this
> can
> be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch
> snapshots
> are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
> inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
> code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
> saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
> (and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
> This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python
> 3?
> The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
> languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
> and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people
> taste
> what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers,
> and
> internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to
> help
> out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
> built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence
> the
> need to use the Unicode function when needed).
> Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
> native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure
> things
> are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
> us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
> contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons
> installed
> on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
> add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as
> add-ons
> are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
> lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
> easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
> in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
> tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
> Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
> effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
> python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code
> before
> asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
> add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
> this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
> powered by Python 3.
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
> Mail list account via Groups.Io
> Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
>
> Hi folks. I see a lot of issues and chat about doing this on github and
> other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
> discussions, is a reason for doing it.
> Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
> explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
> computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
> getting nvda to work better as it stands.
> I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
> for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
> development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
> We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
> universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
> somebody explain why in as plain a language as one can. If somebody could
> do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
> calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
> Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you
> know!
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian
> Gaff'
> in the display name field.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> [Image NVDA certified expert]
> Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
> material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you
> are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a
> copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out
> which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
> http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
> People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
> please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
> certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
> individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed
> the NVDA expert exam.
>
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Hi, Well, two in one really: hotspot clicker and mouse movement commands, the latter is the same as JAWS cursor. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Christopher Bartlett
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing Golden Cursor generation 2 #AddonRelease Am I correct in thinking this addon is meant to bring the functionality of something like HotSpotClicker into NVDA, for use in applications with graphic interfaces, such as music plugins for Sonar or Reaper? On Mon, Dec 25, 2017 at 9:02 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote: Ladies and gentlemen, On behalf of NVDA add-ons community, I’m pleased to introduce to you the opening of the next frontier in mouse navigation in the form of Golden Cursor generation 2! Golden Cursor is more golden than ever before: move the mouse pointer with the arrow keys, save mouse positions for apps, and jump to specific mouse positions, all with the help from this add-on that opened up possibilities for many. Highlights of Golden Cursor 2.0 include completely redesigned mouse positions dialog (formerly saved positions list), save add-on settings such as mouse units across sessions, ability to specify custom mouse movement units (even for different applications), a completely new way to specify mouse position when you wish to move somewhere else and more. Another key addition is Mouse Arrows mode where by pressing a specific command you can turn arrow keys into a convenient track ball (yes, you heard it right), and ability to jump to a saved mouse position straight from mouse positions list by pressing Enter key on the desired tag. Speaking of mouse positions dialog, it received a complete design overhaul, including a new look and displaying mouse coordinates for each tag. When it comes to repositioning the mouse, you can now specify positions for X and/or Y coordinates, plus you can either type the new position or use up or down arrow keys to select a position. Note: Golden Cursor 2.0 requires NVDA 2017.3 and later. Also, due to changes made to how mouse positions are stored, .gc files from 1.x cannot be used on 2.0 and later and vice versa. If you’ve used Golden Cursor 1.4 or earlier, old positions will be migrated when you install 2.0. The add-on can be found at: https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/goldenCursor.en.html I (Joseph Lee, the caretaker maintainer) would like to thank folks for feedback and helping out with code edits. Special thanks to a certain person named Robert who helped out with code dependencies. Technical: for those keeping an eye on source code changes, more than 70 percent of the add-on has been rewritten. For folks using Golden Cursor 2.0 release candidate: upgrading to 2.0 is mandatory due to migration as a result of folder location changes. Enjoy. Cheers, Joseph
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