----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:07 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials


Brian,

With respect to investing money globally to make screen reader users more computer literate, well believe or not there was always a solution for that. A screen reader should imply a social movement and not a gain of capital out of selling. There are lots of development institutions, Christian Blind Mission, blind federations and lots of other non governamental organizations which support everything which gives people access to education, information and technology. But in the last 30 years, many people hoped to gain money out of selling licenses and did not really concentrate on learning the user detailed aspects on how to use that software. Thus, users became more and more change resistent because they invested lot of time to learn by themselves how to use it productively. In my opinion, we should not only think about technical aspects of a screen reader, but also about social impact and user interaction.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 24.12.2017 um 04:44 schrieb Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>:

Certainly I do understand the burned out part of this its the same for all volunteers. if we are good at what we do we are in demand and take on more and more. it was only a comment from somebody else that made me try to bring a sense of realism to life. You cannot be a one man fixer of everything, and the cemeteries are full of people who were indispensable.
Most screenreader users are just that, users, many of us know the basics of what is going on, but really, its now so complex its beyond all but the few to grasp it all.
Obviously as we kind of slip into a world very much like we used to have in the 80s, where computers run lots of different operating systems and even windows differs in the internals between many different systems, the problems of access move from the screenreader to the platform.
that is, NVDA will probably be OK on mainstream Windows computers for some years, but with tablets, phones and various different processors and operating systems now coming in, its going to be the user who has to change and become expert in many more interfaces, as clearly, what we use in Windows today with a keyboard may not fit in any way the interface of the future.
Sadly the problem is as it always has been, training and the cost and indeed the ability of blind people particularly the older ones to actually grasp the abstract concepts and enable them to see equivalents and have a grasp of what is actually going on.
I really think that somebody needs to invest a lot more money globally in trying to get more blind people computer literate, but its just not happening, so although in theory we have access, not everyone will be able to actually use it.

Change is life after all, and people going to take other jobs is normal. the problem for nvda is that the two people who started it were visionary, and not everyone can share the vision, if you get my drift.
I don't know what is about to happen to tech, but it seems to me that nobody does. Who could have predicted this year that tablet sales have dropped but laptop and desktop sales are up. I suspect its down to novelty wearing off and nothing really new on the market just revamps of what has gone before.
Personally, my gut tells me that although cloud computing can be good in some cases, many people do not want to pitch all their eggs into somebody elses basket. Its the same reason I still buy CDs. I don't want somebody taking my access away due to whatever. The danger at the moment is that the net is going down the packet priority road as well, another legal form of highway robbery in my view.
As for surveys, yes, well I already told you my opinion of those. Almost be better to use some tracking system, like a cookie to see what is on any given machine, but many would find that intrusive even though if you own an Android device its more or less going on now.
Its all about trust and whether you can always trust others with data about you.
If it can be created it can be hacked and messed about with. Bots are all over the place after all.
If you cannot trust the metrics one gets then the data collected becomes worthless.
Anyway I'm up in the night again wibbling on. Look at it this way, it matters what happens to nvda, but in the great scheme of life, what really matters is trying to be happy while you are here on the planet. You cannot own other people like Mick or Jamie.

Its not right or fair to expect people to be some kind of God.
Been there got the TO Shirt, and the community awards etc, and for what?
I prefer now to just help if I can but not to get so het up that it makes my life owned by others.
Big mistake.
Brian

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This message sent from a Windows XP machine!
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 5:25 PM
Subject: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials

Dear NVDA community,

As I read messages on recent discussions, I realized just how much enthusiasm and concern people have over NVDA and its future. At the same time, it became clear to me that I and other developers and community elders need a day off and just listen to you all, as listening allows us to think about what others are saying and plan things accordingly.

But first, a humble opinion about surveys and other points:

First, when calls for the seventh Web AIM survey went out, I told people to not just do it to “increase” market share. I specifically told screen reader companies to not coerce users to do it, but let people take it out of their own willingness. This advice was to avoid a fiasco that happened with Web AIM 6 where AI Squared (now part of VFO) staff told Window-Eyes users to fill out the survey in mass numbers, which became a small controversy within the screen reading world, and to me, making Web AIM results no longer credible.

As some folks pointed out, Web AIM numbers depend on how many people fill it out and where they come from (and this is true of any surveys where word of mouth drives participation). The results also depend on demographics and other factors such as choices given, how the questions are worded, and overall objective. If one or more data points seems to be dominant, they can be either skewed or outliers, with the more extreme cases being termed “outliers” and they affect how the results are explicated (interpreted). Even skewed data, such as what I can perceive from some surveys including recent Web AIM iterations can affect statistical calculations to a point where it raises genuine questions about bias, credibility, and others (after all, success of statistics, particularly inferential statistics, depends on a representative sample or a close equivalent that allows researchers to approximate the real world, which is prone to errors if not done correctly such as misinterpretation, bad outliers, only some groups participating, not looking at things more deeply and what not).

One important thing to note is that Web AIM is a representative survey, thus the result in front of me could reflect reality. However, due to recent controversy, possible type I and II errors (false-positive and false-negative, respectively) and because of outliers and skewed data and participation, it does not truly reflect actual data, which is a point some folks here are trying to say and I concur with. My explication of Web AIM 7 is that, in some parts of the world, JAWS for Windows is more popular. However, given the fact that not all geographical regions are represented, I’d counter by saying that this is not a true representative sample that includes every continent, and if it did, the story would be different and will reflect reality a bit better (not a lot because there are other ways of skewing data such as filling it out on behalf of an organization, robotic fillers and so on). Coupled with the fact that Web AIM went through a major controversy recently that damaged its credibility somewhat, I would dare not trust Web AIM results again.

This leads to my second point: quantity versus quality. If NV Access went straight for quantity alone, they could have implemented all possible feature requests in hopes of boosting market share. The reality in front of us says otherwise: not all feature requests are here. Numerous factors contribute to this problem:

Lack of leading developers: in 2017, a long-time NVDA developer started working for another organization, and NV Access has been looking for his replacement ever since. Even if the replacement is found, it’ll take several months for him or her to become used to this community, learn about accessibility and how to interact with members, and earn our trust (it took Reef Turner a year to fully earn our trust). Folks can counter this by saying that there are countless contributors out there, but ultimately what gets into NVDA depends on pull requests and review time from NV Access.
Attitudes about open-source software from organizations: as some folks pointed out, there are prevailing attitudes about open-source in organizations that makes it a bit harder for NVDA to land on their computers, which allows developers to assess true needs of organizations through user feedback. Without valuable feedback from organizations (a quality one at that), we won’t see huger progress in NVDA development.
Outside attitudes about the NVDA community: from the inside, NVDA community is seen as a tight nit of enthusiasts who strives to make NVDA better every day. On the outside, however, we have a mixed bag of reputations, from admiration to honorable mentions to disdain. Every organization have these mixed reputations, especially more so for a community powered by technology such as Linux kernel developers, web browser vendors and web standards organizations, and even screen reader community. Not only we need to show that we are united inside, we need to showcase unity outside of this community.
Inside matters just as outside: public relations outside of NVDA community is important, but unity within an organization is just as important as public organizational face (I’ll address developer’s point of view below). What makes NVDA stand out is our unity despite coming from different circumstances and backgrounds.

Most of these point to quality, not quantity alone. In summary, quantity is important, but quality is just as important as how many people download NVDA 2017.4 between Christmas and New Year.

Lastly, in regards to organization internals, I’d like to address something I really wanted to say for the past few weeks: sometimes, I felt burnt out. My initial response to your enthusiasm over my audio tutorials was that I’ll ask for justifications for producing an updated version, seeing that there are countless free videos and tutorials out there. This was partly because I truly felt burnt out with academics, speech and debate competitions and what not (especially after a debate regarding a potential feature held not long ago), at one point telling myself that I’ll retire from the NVDA community sooner than later and feeling as though I carried important burdens on my shoulders. But you didn’t see that justification post; instead, I posted links to where you can download the 2018 version of my audio tutorial series. In effect, I’ve given up my Christmas holidays for this community, knowing that I needed a time to listen to you all and do something about it. All this was possible because of a simple act of listening and thinking about what the community means to me and what my work means to everyone. I’m committed to finishing Welcome to NVDA 2018 series before NVDA 2018.1 ships, with several addenda coming after that, all because of support from this community and outsiders. And I promise again: The Welcome to NVDA 2018 series was, and will remain, free for all. All I ask of you in return is donate to a cause that makes equal access to technology possible, especially during this holiday season and beyond.

I’m sure for many of you, my musings above are a bit hard to digest. Now you know why I don’t trust Web AIM survey results, quality is just as important as quantity, and read a confession from a community leader on his inner feelings. But there are two more things you need to know, something all of us needs to think about:

Community leaders won’t stay with you forever. In early 2017, I sensed that a long-time NVDA developer would leave this community for something better. Only I and others didn’t know until summer that it would be Jamie moving onto Mozilla Foundation.

I also felt, back in early 2017, that my active time with the NVDA community is slowly drawing to a close. I don’t know when it’ll happen, but I’ve been laying foundations for the next generation of developers and enthusiasts to take the lead. This is one of the reasons for setting up the devlearning subgroup, because I felt it is time for me and other leaders to teach NVDA internals and other concepts to the next group of community leaders and developers so they can bring NVDA to the next level and do more amazing things than I and others did (in my case, for the past five years).

Lastly, I sense a time when this community will face a sharp divide to a point where people will start questioning the merits of this community. I only told a select few earlier because it wasn’t right for me to disclose it early and for them to prepare a plan. The screen shade debate is, in fact, a sort of a preview of what is to come. One of the fundamental questions you will face at that time will be whether you still have your first love for NVDA, and whether you still have your original reasons for joining this community. The survival of this community at that time will depend on your ability to unite to face a difficult situation, even if that means facing possible splits. One thing you should NOT do at that time: ignoring new users and outside critics, because they are influential opinion leaders and are key stakeholders in NVDA’s future. One thing you SHOULD do though: listen to others and think critically.

Hope this makes sense.
Merry (early) Christmas,
Joseph

From: Carlos
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 1:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Tech support: a possible training session during NVDACon2018

 

Hello Joseph:

    NV Access already offers a training module on using NVDA.

    Those in the community who want to help with support in using NVDA should take the course and set themselves up to do tech support agents as their time permits.

    The training modules should be translated by members of the community in as many languages/tongues as possible!

    And, as always, in order to get the most out of NVDA it should be required that before coming on the list to ask questions that an understanding of the user manual take place!

    Thank You! Joseph for all your tireless work!!!

 

Hi all,

 

Before I present the following idea to NVDACon organizers, I’d like to run it through with you to gather comments before proceeding:

 

As some of you may know, the NVDA community holds an annual gathering of community members to discuss NVDA and its present and future. Given that NVDACon 2018 proposals might be floating around the community (hopefully by early next year), coupled with recent tech support discussions, I was wondering if I should hold a training session during that gathering that goes over basics of tech support. Topics may include user-centric questions, troubleshooting steps, how to read NVDA log and what not.

 

Comments are welcome.

Cheers,

Joseph

-- 

Carlos Gonzalez - Los Angeles, CA. - gmjc341961@...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Noah Carver via Groups.Io" <ntclists=aol.com@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Change.org Petition: Make Movies Accessible to the Blind

This is about DVS, mostly in movie theaters.


On 12/23/2017 22:29, Lino Morales wrote:

Noah. Movies for the most part are already accessible. Its called DVS. That's all I'll say.


On 12/23/2017 10:26 PM, Noah Carver via Groups.Io wrote:

Hi All,

This email might be off topic to this list, so if someone could give me some guidance it would be appreciated.

I have been doing some advocacy work for descriptive audio, and have written a Change.org petition. Have a look and see if you might sign and share with others.

https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-make-movies-accessible-to-the-blind?recruiter=844835478&;utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition&utm_term=share_petition

Yours,

Noah Carver

---

Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
> You know I really think talking book players should either support
> formatting their drives or actually supporting ntfs or reformatting to
> their own format and have software able to do it.

NTFS is harder on flash memory than fat 32. That's why you almost never get flash drives in NTFS, unless they are really large ones like 128 gb and up.
The reason NTFS is harder on flash drives is because these things only have a limited number of writes. NTFS is a journalling file system, meaning it writes to the media more often than would happen as fat 32.
In addition, NTFS supports permissions, which is often not applicable for flash drives. File permissions could actually create problems on those when you transfer them between computers.
The only time you might want to consider formatting a flash drive as NTFS is if you are going to copy a file more than 4gb in size to the drive.

Le 2017-12-24 à 09:56, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io a écrit :

Just in case I was thinking of this from my Windows 7 machine.
Does this work in 10?

@echo off


set /p drive= Which stick should I use?
echo Please wait...

format %drive%:/fs:fat32/v:tested
pause
exit

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io" <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Hmm, this would be important to know as the majority of audio players for the blind that play ram sticks will not read ntfs.
I'm sure you know most of these players only work on the order of files written, not on the file names as well.
It seems a little odd to remove such an option.

Luckily most players can read fat, and most generic sticks I see are pre formatted in that  way.
Tell me, what about the command line way of formatting?

If you don't know the syntax I can get it for you.
Brian


bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:25 AM
Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hi all
This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has the XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The digital player can read neither of these file systems. I’ve submitted feedback to ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who knows if it will happen. This is a problem because unless the dp’s firmware is updated, extremely unlikely, people who use windows 10 won’t be able to format new flash drives or reformat old ones without using another program, which I’m sure exist. They won’t be able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the functionality.  This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard drives have only the ntfs option. I’m posting hear because I’m not subscribed to the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it’s off topic, but I wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.

Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

---

Just in case I was thinking of this from my Windows 7 machine.
 Does this work in 10?

@echo off


set /p drive= Which stick should I use?
echo Please wait...

format %drive%:/fs:fat32/v:tested
pause
 exit

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io"
<bglists@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


> Hmm, this would be important to know as the majority of audio players for
> the blind that play ram sticks will not read ntfs.
> I'm sure you know most of these players only work on the order of files
> written, not on the file names as well.
> It seems a little odd to remove such an option.
>
> Luckily most players can read fat, and most generic sticks I see are pre
> formatted in that  way.
> Tell me, what about the command line way of formatting?
>
> If you don't know the syntax I can get it for you.
> Brian
>
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <coffeekingms@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:25 AM
> Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for
> flash drives for the moment
>
>
> Hi all
> This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after
> unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book
> player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has the
> XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The digital
> player can read neither of these file systems. I’ve submitted feedback to
> ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who knows if it will happen. This
> is a problem because unless the dp’s firmware is updated, extremely
> unlikely, people who use windows 10 won’t be able to format new flash
> drives or reformat old ones without using another program, which I’m sure
> exist. They won’t be able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the
> functionality.  This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard
> drives have only the ntfs option. I’m posting hear because I’m not
> subscribed to the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it’s off topic, but
> I wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide
> workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.
>
> Thanks
> Kendell Clark
>
>
> Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io" <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Hmm, this would be important to know as the majority of audio players for the blind that play ram sticks will not read ntfs.
I'm sure you know most of these players only work on the order of files written, not on the file names as well.
It seems a little odd to remove such an option.

Luckily most players can read fat, and most generic sticks I see are pre formatted in that way.
Tell me, what about the command line way of formatting?

If you don't know the syntax I can get it for you.
Brian


bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:25 AM
Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hi all
This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has the XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The digital player can read neither of these file systems. I’ve submitted feedback to ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who knows if it will happen. This is a problem because unless the dp’s firmware is updated, extremely unlikely, people who use windows 10 won’t be able to format new flash drives or reformat old ones without using another program, which I’m sure exist. They won’t be able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the functionality. This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard drives have only the ntfs option. I’m posting hear because I’m not subscribed to the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it’s off topic, but I wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.

Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

From: Bhavya shah
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 2:15 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] New Blog Post: (3) Relearning The Computer The Sightless Way

 

Dear all,

The 21st century 11-year-old is expected to be a proficient user of

tech, and I fulfilled that expectancy at that age too… until I lost

all my remaining vision and was forced to start from scratch. Allow me

to recount my experience, perhaps mirroring that of many other late

blind folks as well, of transitioning from the mouse to the keyboard,

leaving behind my favourite video games, and trying to revive visual

memories of the computer screen in a nonvisual manner. Check out the

newest issue in the Story of my Life Series on my blog Hiking Across

Horizons titled “(3) Relearning The Computer The Sightless Way”.

Post URL: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/2017/12/23/3-relearning-the-computer-the-sightless-way/

Blog Address: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Thanks.

P.S. While the shared blog post does not specifically pertain to NVDA,

I am certain that it will help remind us from where we came from as

screen reader users, the present situation of the adoption of NVDA in

training agencies, experiences of newbies with NVDA as their first, or

possibly second (as in my case), screen reader on Windows.

 

--

Best Regards

Bhavya Shah

 

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

 

Contacting Me

E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@...

Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125

Mobile Number: +91 7506221750

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:25 AM
Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hi all
This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has the XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The digital player can read neither of these file systems. I’ve submitted feedback to ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who knows if it will happen. This is a problem because unless the dp’s firmware is updated, extremely unlikely, people who use windows 10 won’t be able to format new flash drives or reformat old ones without using another program, which I’m sure exist. They won’t be able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the functionality. This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard drives have only the ntfs option. I’m posting hear because I’m not subscribed to the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it’s off topic, but I wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.

Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

Hi All,

This email might be off topic to this list, so if someone could give me
some guidance it would be appreciated.

I have been doing some advocacy work for descriptive audio, and have
written a Change.org petition. Have a look and see if you might sign and
share with others.

https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-make-movies-accessible-to-the-blind?recruiter=844835478&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition&utm_term=share_petition

Yours,

Noah Carver

On 24 Dec 2017, at 4:03 pm, Rob Hudson <rob_hudson_3182@gmx.com> wrote:

Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:

You know I really think talking book players should either support
formatting their drives or actually supporting ntfs or reformatting to
their own format and have software able to do it.

NTFS is harder on flash memory than fat 32. That's why you almost never get flash drives in NTFS, unless they are really large ones like 128 gb and up.
The reason NTFS is harder on flash drives is because these things only have a limited number of writes. NTFS is a journalling file system, meaning it writes to the media more often than would happen as fat 32.
In addition, NTFS supports permissions, which is often not applicable for flash drives. File permissions could actually create problems on those when you transfer them between computers.
The only time you might want to consider formatting a flash drive as NTFS is if you are going to copy a file more than 4gb in size to the drive.

On 24/12/2017 7:25 p.m., coffeekingms@hotmail.com wrote:

Hi all
This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has the XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The digital player can read neither of these file systems. I’ve submitted feedback to ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who knows if it will happen. This is a problem because unless the dp’s firmware is updated, extremely unlikely, people who use windows 10 won’t be able to format new flash drives or reformat old ones without using another program, which I’m sure exist. They won’t be able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the functionality. This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard drives have only the ntfs option. I’m posting hear because I’m not subscribed to the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it’s off topic, but I wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.

Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

OK kids this is your uncle Lino here. Lets take a quicky breaky about
all things NVVDA shall we? Now that the subject line got your attention.
I wrote this up a week ago today. Enjoy and Merry Christmas. Oh and Gene
don't kick me off the list with your hooves ahem steel toed boots. Thanks

The Story of Rudolph Part II
by Lino Morales
Now here's a little story I'd like to tell about a red nosed reindeer
you all know so well. It started way down in history. This whole story
of Rudolph has never been told till now.
You see, after going to the Land of Misfit Toys and saving Christmas,
Rudolph and Clarice never solidified their love towards one another.
Clarice and Rudolph were talking late one night in the North Pole and
she said, "Rudolph, remember when you were a little buck and I was a
little doe I said that you were cute?"
"Yes, I remember," said Rudolph.
"Well I think it’s time we solidified our love to each other," Clarice said.
"Oh really? You really mean it?" said Rudolph.
"Yes," said Clarice.
"Well, OK," replied Rudolph.
As she looked into his reindeer eyes, she sang this little song. “You
are the sunshine of my life, because your nose is oh so bright.”
"Wow!" said Rudolph.
So, a few months later they were happily married inside Santa's
workshop. All the females that work for the fat guy decorated his shop
beautifully.
Well, a few months later Clarice gave birth to their first fawns. They
named them LeAnne and Cleo. They grew up playing the same reindeer games
Rudolph and Clarice played when Rudy had his nose problems which you
already know that story, right?
Ahem! Anyway, LeAnne and Cleo grew up to become beautiful teenaged does.
They were set to someday help fly Santa's sleigh.
One day, this outlaw of a reindeer named Leroy came to the North Pole.
See, he originally lived in the mountains of Tennessee. He made his ma
and pa mad one day and took off far, far away in his John Deere flying
tractor. Well he ended up at a rest stop in the South Pole. After he was
well rested from such a long trip he finished his journey to the North
Pole. He realized once he got their it was rather damn cold there. Much
colder than the mountains of ole Tennessee.
"I'm glad I packed an extry set of boots and long johns,” Leroy said to
himself.
Well, one fine day, he found himself lost in the North Pole.
“Dag nabbit! I forgot my map!” he said.
As he was wandering around the North Pole he saw this pretty little doe
prancing along in the snow.
Howdy, ma’am! he shouted.
“Hi,” she said shyly.
“I'm dang near lost, Leroy said. “Say, what's your name, miss?”
“LeAnne,” the little doe said.
They shook hooves.
“Well, who are you and why do you talk with a Southern accent?” LeAnne
asked.
“Well see, I come from Tennessee.”
“Oh wow!” LeAnne said.
“Well see, my ma and pa got really mad at me back home and I needed to
get away. You see, I'm a bit of an outlaw reindeer. I got into lots of
trouble with all the pretty doe girls and, well, ma and pa couldn’t put
up with me anymore.”
“Wow!” LeAnne said. “So why in the world are you up here?”
“Well, I was wantin’ to ask Mr. Santy Claus for a job.”
“A job?” LeAnne said.
“Yup, a job flying my flying John Deere tractor.”
“Now why would you wanna do that?” Said LeAnne.
“Well, I heard all about that thar reindeer Rudolph back home when I was
a young‘un buck and I figured he needs a little help sometimes.”
LeAnne said, “You wanna help out my pa?”
“Say what?!” Leroy said. “Rudy is your pa?”
“Yes sir,” LeAnne said.
“You see, miss LeAnne, my tractor can fly all around the world. From the
farm homes to the city houses. I can plunk down all them thar presents
for all them good kiddies.”
“Amazing!” said LeAnne.
“You wanna see my flying tractor?” asked Leroy.
“Sure,” said Leann.
“Well she’s parked over yonder on that thar snow bank. Do you hear the
engine runnin’?”
“Yes, I do,” said the little doe.
“Well, I had to leave it on so the diesel won't get cold.”
So, as they both trudged to the snow bank, the flying tractor got louder
and louder. It startled all of the snow creatures nearby.
“What is that annoying sound?!” One of them said.
“I don't know!” Said another.
Well, the gentleman Leroy was, he invited LeAnne into the cab of his
tractor.
“Say, you want some Slim Jims, miss LeAnne?”
“A Slim Jim? What's that?” she asked.
“Well, you see, it’s like deer sausage, but it’s not made from deer meat
like them crazy humans like to hunt every winter.”
“OK, I'll try some,” LeAnne said.
“Great! Now relax and I'll fly ya home.”
“But…but…”
“It’s OK, miss LeAnne. I wanna meet your famous pa and your ma.”
“Well OK,” she said.
“Now show me the way to your house. I don't have a map of the North Pole.”
Well, they finally made it to Rudolph's home after an hour. Rudy was one
angry dad buck at this point.
“LeAnne!” He shouted.
She got scared of her pa ‘cause he had never yelled at her like that
before. Oh, his nose was so bright with anger it lit up the entire North
Pole.
“Your ma, Santa, and all the elves were looking all over for you, young
lady!”
“I met a new friend,” she said.
“And who is this friend?” Rudolph asked.
“His name is Leroy.”
“Well, tell Leroy to get out of here with that… What in the world is
that?!” Rudy said.
“It’s a flying John Deere tractor.”
“The only thing that flies around here is Santa's sleigh. Now go to your
room, now!”
“Yes pa,” LeAnne said sadly.
Now, as you can imagine, Rudolph was a bit hot under the collar…ahem…the
nose by this point, so he stepped outside into the bitter cold to speak
to this crazy redneck buck Leroy. As Rudy approached the flying tractor,
Leroy was shaking in his cowboy boots.
“You young buck, come out of that flying tractor!”
“Yes sir,” Leroy said, with a quiver in his voice.
“Well, don't just sit there, son…get out!”
Leroy was so damn scared he done shut off the engine. Now Rudolph and
Leroy had a little chat.
“Now, son, what brought you here to the North Pole in that get-up of a
flying object?”
“Well, Rudy…”
“It’s Rudolph to you, young man.”
“Yes sir. Sorry. Well, you see, I'm an outlaw deer in the mountains of
Tennessee and my ma and pa kicked me out.”
“Why?” asked Rudolph.
“Well, ‘cause none of the doe girls back home didn't like me ‘cause of
my flying tractor.”
“Well, I wonder why? That thing is too loud,” said Rudolph.
“Um…yeah,” Leroy said quietly. “Well, I was wantin’ to see if I could
get a job for the winter helpin’ Santy Claus, your boss man.”
“Well, son, he's already got me, plus all the other reindeer. Besides,
what can that tractor do for Santa, anyway?”
“Well, the same thing his sleigh does, but my tractor can deliver toys
to all the young’uns in the north and the south. It can plunk all them
thar presents at all the farmhouses and city slicker ones, too. I
figured, Mr. Rudolph, you could use a break once in a while. With your
nose as bright as a spotlight, I'm sure you can get dang tired.”
“Well, yes, its tiring,” said Rudolph.
“You see, I was lost out here and, dag nabbit, I didn't bring a map to
this dag gone North Pole. I saw your pretty doe girl, miss LeAnne, and
she showed me the way to y'all’s house.”
“Well, since you traveled all this way, you can sleep here, but you have
to sleep in that flying tractor,” Rudolph said.
“Well, I reckon I can do that for one night, but why cain't I sleep in
y'all’s place, Rudolph?”
“Well, you can't, ‘cause Santa Claus doesn't know you’re here.”
“Well, OK,” said Leroy. “I have a nice runnin’ heater in the cab of my
tractor.”
“Well, I'll see you in the morning, Leroy. We'll see if Santy…I mean
Santa…can give you a job. Clarice and I need a vacation. I've not had
one in years! I must know one thing before I turn in for the night,
Leroy,” Rudolph asked. “How will that tractor light the way for Santa?”
“Well, glad you asked, sir,” he said excitedly. So, Leroy flipped on the
headlights. Boy they was as bright as Christmas lights, if not more so.
“Hey, you'd better turn them lights off, Leroy. You'll wake up all the
snow creatures, and Santa!”
“Yes sir,” Leroy said.
Well, the next morning came. Rudolph pounded on Leroy's tractor window
with his hoof.
“Hey! What in tarnation is that?!” he said.
“Wake up, Leroy,” Rudolph said.
“I was in a deep sleep, sir.”
“Well, you want to work for my boss for the winter, right?”
“Yup,” said Leroy.
“OK, then we must see Santa at once.”
“Sir, can miss LeAnne come, too?”
“Nope,” said Rudolph.
“Why not, sir?”
“’Cause I'm not too sure about you yet. You kind of talk funny, you see.”
“Well, sir, not to be rude, but you talk a bit funny yourself.”
“It’s my red nose,” Rudolph said, laughing.
“Oh yeah, I forgot,” Leroy chuckled.
“Well, let’s go!”
“Um…should we take my tractor, sir?” Leroy asked.
“No, Leroy. We'll walk. Santa's house and workshop are on the other side
of the snow bank. That thing is loud, anyway.”
“OK,” said Leroy, “we'll walk yonder to the boss's house.”
Rudolph cautiously walked up to Santa's house and rang the doorbell. A
cute little elf girl answered the door.
“Yes, Rudolph?” She said.
“Um…is Santa busy at the moment?” he asked.
“Now Rudolph, you know he's always busy. It’s almost Christmas!”
“Don't remind me,” Rudolph said.
So, the cute little elf girl went into Santa's shop at the back of the
house.
“Um…Mr. Claus?” she asked. “Um…Rudolph would like to speak to you, sir.”
“Well, tell him to come in,” Santa said.
The little elf girl said, “OK boys, Santa will see you now.”
Leroy was very nervous. He was so nervous, he kept sucking on a Slim Jim.
“Rudolph!” Santa said. “Who is your friend there?”
“Well, sir, his NAME Is Leroy.”
“Leroy?” Santa said. “Well, Leroy, what brings you to the North Pole,
young man?”
“Well, sir, I got lost last night. I done forgot to bring me a map to
this place, dag nabbit! Anyway, I saw Rudolph's pretty little doe girl,
miss LeAnne, on a snow bank and she showed me the way to their house.
You see, Santa, my ma and pa kicked me out. It’s a long story. I come
from the mountains of Tennessee and I need a job, sir.”
“A job?” Santa asked.
“Yup. You see, sir, I came here in a flying John Deere tractor. I didn't
bring it with me ‘cause that thing is so loud I hurt them thar snow
creature's’ ears.”
“So, son, how does this flying object work?” asked Santa.
“Well, it runs on diesel fuel and it flies, of course.”
“Hmm,” said the big elf.
“Should we hop in your sleigh and I'll show you how it works?” Leroy
asked with excitement.
“Well, Ok,” Santa said.
As they crossed the snow bank back to Rudolph's house Santa saw this
marvelous piece of redneck way of traveling. “It’s amazing!” he said.
“Yup,” Leroy said. “You see, Mr. Claus, it has pretty bright headlights.
It’s about as bright as Rudy's nose!”
“It’s Rudolph, remember, young man!”
“Yes sir,” said Leroy. “You see, I wanna give Rudolph a break this
Christmas. He says him and the missus need a vacation.”
“What?! A vacation?”
“Sorry, sir,” Rudolph said. “I wanted to tell you, but I never got
around to it since you’re so busy making toys.”
“Well, what are you waiting for, son? Christmas is only 2 days away. How
do you fly this thing?” Santa asked.
Well, Leroy showed that fat guy how to operate that flying tractor. They
took a test flight around the North and South Pole.
Santa, Rudolph and Leroy had so much fun on that thar tractor they lost
track of time. Mrs. Claus and Clarice had prepared a fine supper. Of
course, Mrs. Claus made double for Santa.
Anyway, Clarice was madder than a hornet. “Rudolph, where have you been,
darling?” she asked.
“Well, I was flying in a tractor with Santa and Leroy.”
“Leroy?” she demanded to know. “Who is Leroy?”
“Well, he's an outlaw reindeer from…”
“I don't care where he came from!” Clarice said. “Was that who you were
talking to last night after LeAnne came home very late?”
“Yes,” Rudolph said. “Honey, we are taking a vacation this Christmas. I
need a break. You see, Leroy will help Santa guide and deliver all the
toys this year to all the girls and boys. The headlights are as bright
as my red nose.”
“I don't believe this! said Clarice. She walked away in a huff.
“Darling, this flying tractor is great!” he shouted down the hall.
Clarice thought to herself, why did I marry that crazy red nosed deer?
Nope, Leroy was the crazy one. Who would have thought of a flying
tractor in the North Pole delivering presents to all boys and girls?
Wait a minute. I thought it up. It’s the part of the story that hasn't
been told till now, remember?
Anyway, Santa and Leroy set off with all his other reindeer to deliver
all the goodies. One thing was missing, however.
“Hey, Santy?” Leroy asked. “I need miss LeAnne to travel with us.”
“Why?” Santa asked. “You have me and all the others.”
“Well, sir, you see, I plan to ask her to marry me tonight before we get
back.”
All the other reindeer and Santa’s elves giggled at hearing the shocking
news.
“You want to marry Rudolph's little doe girl?”
“Yes sir,” said Leroy.
“Well then, have her climb aboard the tractor!”
Santa let out a hardy “ho, ho, ho,” once they lifted off into the sky.
“Boy, that tractor sure made a roar…it hurt my ears!”
Well, LeAnne and Leroy were alone in the back of the tractor sorting out
the bags of toys and goodies. He looked into her eyes and said, “Well,
LeAnne, we've known each other for a while.”
“Yes, we have,” she said.
“Miss LeAnne, would you marry me?”
Now her nose turned red. So red like her pa's that the good people in
the mountains of Tennessee could see as they passed this great state.
She said, “Yes, Leroy, I'll marry you,” and with that they both hugged
each other.
Santa was so excited that the tractor flew faster than it usually can
fly. “Oops!” he said. “Sorry, kids.”
Well, after they made the annual worldwide voyage, they made it back to
the North Pole. The engine made such a ruckus it raddled the windows at
Santa's house where Mrs. Claus was waiting on the front porch.
By midnight Christmas night, LeAnne and Leroy were wed. You see, since
Rudy and Clarice were on vacation, Leroy borrowed Santa's iPhone 10, so
he could call Rudy.
“Hello?” Rudolph answered.
“Hey, sir, it’s me, Leroy. I hope I didn't interrupt your vacation.”
“Nope,” Rudolph said. “Why are you calling on Santa's phone?”
“Well, Rudolph, your daughter and I are gonna get married. May I have
your blessin’, sir?”
Rudy and Clarice were both in shock. See, when Rudy answered, he had
Leroy on speaker phone as they lay on the sandy beach with their hoof
toes buried in the sand.
“Well, since you two have been dating in the North Pole and she loves
you so much, you may wed her.”
“Thank you, sir!” he said, and Leroy let out a loud “Yeehaw!”
Santa made arrangements to fly Rudolph and Clarice back home in his
sleigh in time for the big wedding.
Meanwhile, all of Santa's cute little girl elves and Cleo, LeAnne's
sister, decorated Santa's workshop.
“Didn't we just have a wedding not too long ago?” one of them asked.
“Yeah, it was like 25 years ago,” another one said.
Well, Rudy and the missus made it home just in time. It was such a
beautiful wedding. Heck, even all the snow creatures enjoyed it. The
guest list was so huge, I can't list everybody here! Leroy invited all
his family of course. Heck, Santa even made a special request to Alan
Jackson, Dolly Parton and a few other Country friends of Leroy's family
to play and sing at the reception. See, Santa has ways, since he knows
everybody ,famous or not.
So, this finally ends our story of what happened to Rudolph after saving
Christmas way down in history oh so long ago. Well, I'm off to bed.
You'd better be good boys and girls. Heck, Leroy might bring y'all a
remote controlled flying tractor.

---

Seems odd though if its been there for a while.
 I know the  IBM version of Eloquence works still, but being sappe 4 is a
little, shall we say unsophisticated!



I'm not sure what it is about Eloquence that people like. To me, being a
Brit it always sounds like it has  a speech impediment. I much prefer espeak
Quincy, but then I'm biased as i created the variant in the first place :-)
 Brian


bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
This message sent from a Windows XP machine!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Turner" <meturner2214@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Nvda broken?


> Hi, I had a Eloquence addon.
>
> I've wasn't sure if this addon was a legal one, so i've removed it.
>
> I've had it on here for awhile, but I'll be buying the sapi5 one from
> codefactory.
>
>
> On 12/23/2017 4:51 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Glad it is fixed. Please flag us down if this happens again.
>> For reference: can you tell us which add-ons were causing issues?
>> Cheers,
>> Joseph
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Matt
>> Turner
>> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 1:48 PM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Nvda broken?
>>
>> Hi, I think I've fix it for now.
>>
>> NVDA 2017.4, Windows 8.1 64 bit.
>>
>> I've took a look at all the addons I had installed, and removed a few of
>> them.
>>
>> Starting up windows, NVDA starts up now. after removing said add-ons.
>>
>>
>> On 12/23/2017 4:24 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> A few things first:
>>> * Which NVDA version are (or were) you running?
>>> * Which Windows release are you using?
>>> * Do you have any add-ons installed?
>>> Sounds like NVDA has encountered a major problem when trying to load
>>> something at startup. The thing is, we need your NVDA log output to
>>> determine what's up, and one way to get it is:
>>> 1. Open Run dialog (Windows+R).
>>> 2. Type "%temp%" (without quotes and exactly as shown) and press Enter.
>>> 3. Look for a file named "nvda.log" or "nvdaold.log".
>>> 4. Open the file and copy and paste everything you see in the reply.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
>>> Matt Turner
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 1:18 PM
>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> Subject: [nvda] Nvda broken?
>>>
>>> Hi folks.
>>>
>>> Every time I try to start up NVDA, I get a airer.
>>>
>>> I've uninstalled/ reinstalled, but I still get the same thing.
>>>
>>> Even when windows starts up, the sound plays, but nvda still gives and
>>> airer.
>>>
>>> Narrator reads, airer nvda.exe ok.
>>>
>>> I get nothing about checking the nvda log.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of coffeekingms@...
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 10:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

 

Hi all

This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has the XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The digital player can read neither of these file systems. I’ve submitted feedback to ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who knows if it will happen. This is a problem because unless the dp’s firmware is updated, extremely unlikely, people who use windows 10 won’t be able to format new flash drives or reformat old ones without using another program, which I’m sure exist. They won’t be able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the functionality.  This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard drives have only the ntfs option. I’m posting hear because I’m not subscribed to the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it’s off topic, but I wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.

 

Thanks

Kendell Clark

 

 

Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

 

On 12/23/17, Don H <lmddh50@adams.net> wrote:

I do think that addon's are the way to go when it comes to adding
functionality to NVDA. Much easier to creat a addon versus adding the
code to the NVDA code itself.
Maybe the powers to be should determine which addon's should be
installed automatically when someone installs NVDA. This is the
approach that GW and Window Eyes took and I think it served the users well.
NVDA users can then go to the web site to install other addon's that may
fit their needs.