Date   

Re: Legally binding Seasons Greetings to all NVDA Users.

Gene
 

There are times when the owner and I will have different opinions about what is allowed.  Some of these decisions are not completely clear cut.  My reasoning was that the post I objected to didn't fall into the seasons greetings category, which has been allowed on list for a long time.  I was also worried that allowing it might result in a lot of completely off topic posts and perhaps many comments to be sent to the list at Christmas time each Christmas season.  I suspect lots of people would like to send such messages, either of their own writings or something they are familiar with such as a short piece of prose or a poem. 
 
The owner may have a different view.  He allowed something I wouldn't have.  In cases where people want to know if something will be allowed, they may write to just me if they wish but that means that I may rule something as inadmissable and the owner would have ruled the other way.  It's in your own interest to use the owner's address when asking posting permission questions.  The owner's opinion, if he expresses one, is the controling opinion. 
 
I should also add that another reason I objected to the post I objected too recently was that permission wasn't sought to post it when in my opinion, it was not at all certain such permission would have been given.  It was posted without asking the owner and/or moderator.  In the current case, permission was asked.  A certain amount of respect for list rules and appropriate attempts should be given, as was done in the current case. 
 
The address to write to if you want a better chance of having something on the border approved is:
 
If the previous poster had written to this address, I have no idea what the owner would have ruled.  That is what should have been done and what I hope people do with borderline questions as to what is acceptable. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Legally binding Seasons Greetings to all NVDA Users.

Hm.

Considering Gene's comments to Lino on Sunday concerning "The Story of
Rudolph", I'm extremely surprised that you posted this to the list.

Antony.

On Tuesday 26 December 2017 at 12:03:53, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io wrote:

> With a nod to similar texts seen elsewhere on the web today.

etc.....

--
The words "e pluribus unum" on the Great Seal of the United States are from a
poem by Virgil entitled "Moretum", which is about cheese and garlic salad
dressing.

                                                   Please reply to the list;
                                                         please *don't* CC me.



Re: Legally binding Seasons Greetings to all NVDA Users.

Antony Stone
 

Hm.

Considering Gene's comments to Lino on Sunday concerning "The Story of
Rudolph", I'm extremely surprised that you posted this to the list.

Antony.

On Tuesday 26 December 2017 at 12:03:53, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io wrote:

With a nod to similar texts seen elsewhere on the web today.
etc.....

--
The words "e pluribus unum" on the Great Seal of the United States are from a
poem by Virgil entitled "Moretum", which is about cheese and garlic salad
dressing.

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


Re: Introducing Golden Cursor generation 2 #addonrelease

Christopher Bartlett
 

Am I correct in thinking this addon is meant to bring the functionality of something like HotSpotClicker into NVDA, for use in applications with graphic interfaces, such as music plugins for Sonar or Reaper?


On Mon, Dec 25, 2017 at 9:02 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

Ladies and gentlemen,

 

On behalf of NVDA add-ons community, I’m pleased to introduce to you the opening of the next frontier in mouse navigation in the form of Golden Cursor generation 2! Golden Cursor is more golden than ever before: move the mouse pointer with the arrow keys, save mouse positions for apps, and jump to specific mouse positions, all with the help from this add-on that opened up possibilities for many.

 

Highlights of Golden Cursor 2.0 include completely redesigned mouse positions dialog (formerly saved positions list), save add-on settings such as mouse units across sessions, ability to specify custom mouse movement units (even for different applications), a completely new way to specify mouse position when you wish to move somewhere else and more. Another key addition is Mouse Arrows mode where by pressing a specific command you can turn arrow keys into a convenient track ball (yes, you heard it right), and ability to jump to a saved mouse position straight from mouse positions list by pressing Enter key on the desired tag. Speaking of mouse positions dialog, it received a complete design overhaul, including a new look and displaying mouse coordinates for each tag. When it comes to repositioning the mouse, you can now specify positions for X and/or Y coordinates, plus you can either type the new position or use up or down arrow keys to select a position.

 

Note: Golden Cursor 2.0 requires NVDA 2017.3 and later. Also, due to changes made to how mouse positions are stored, .gc files from 1.x cannot be used on 2.0 and later and vice versa. If you’ve used Golden Cursor 1.4 or earlier, old positions will be migrated when you install 2.0.

 

The add-on can be found at:

https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/goldenCursor.en.html

 

I (Joseph Lee, the caretaker maintainer) would like to thank folks for feedback and helping out with code edits. Special thanks to a certain person named Robert who helped out with code dependencies.

 

Technical: for those keeping an eye on source code changes, more than 70 percent of the add-on has been rewritten.

 

For folks using Golden Cursor 2.0 release candidate: upgrading to 2.0 is mandatory due to migration as a result of folder location changes.

 

Enjoy.

Cheers,

Joseph




--
Christopher Bartlett


Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?

Adriani Botez
 

I agree. There are some really good aspects which have to be considered.
NV Access has to be really careful when it comes to finding the best time to drop support for older systems. In the case of win xp it was the right time since even most developing countries are not affected. But we should try to consider developing countries everytime when droping support is likely to happen. Otherwise the main part of the goal of NV Access will fail to be achieved. An extended support release would be great. For this, the team from NV Access definitely needs to get bigger, for example NV Access should provide a trainee program and should give developers the possibility to do an internship. This would give potential developers time to learn internal processes without having big responsibilities.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 26.12.2017 um 13:33 schrieb "coffeekingms@..." <coffeekingms@...>:

Hi

I agree with this message and it’s goals of having an NVDA app in the store. But I have some concerns as well. One of the most prominent being will ninite still be able to download and install this if NVDA transitions over to being store only? Second, this will pretty much eliminate any version of windows other than windows 10 and maybe 8 and 8.1, if the store apps on those can download the same apps windows 10 can, from using NVDA. This is  good and not good. There are lots of people who have to use older versions of windows, even older than the minimum NVDA supports. How do we handle this. Simply saying get with the times and upgrade isn’t always possible and even when possible isn’t always what the user wants. I’m not trying to start any debates hear, and I think NVDA in the store is a good thing. But it has to be done right. Preferably an option in the windows installer, or code in windows itself to download NVDA on install would be nice. But there are problems with that as well. That would make it convenient for NVDA users but would make use of NVDA compulsory and would take away the users ability to choose which program they want. It’s a huge circle that’s not really solveable. Also, can NVDA still remain open source if it’s in the windows store? I don’t understand the legal issues or licensing issues an app goes through when being added to the store but I’m assuming that there is some MS code required to be in all apps and that code is probably not going to be open. Certainly I see no license field when installing apps, it is just assumed all apps are proprietary. NVDA should not give up it’s open source status, at least in my opinion. But I love the idea of making NVDA development easier. I myself have struggled with this for years. I’ve tried a total of 5 times now to learn enough python to jump in and help NVDA out, to become an active developer. Jamie teh sort of got me passionate about that when he gave me his blind people should be able to use computers for free speech. I’ve failed every single time. Not because python is complex, although it is, but because trying to jump from print “hello world” to NVDA code is a huge, huge, huge leap. I learned just enough to, with help, add media keycodes to NVDA so when you press play in learn mode, NVDA says play pause. But no more. NVDA was just too complex. I don’t understand how the windows store runs apps it downloads, not completely. What little I do understand about it is that it virtualizes them, isolating them from the rest of the system to keep viruses from getting out while somehow still allowing it access to what it needs to run. This is one major disadvantage of running windows, I can’t look at internals. Ms is too secretive and because of their licenses, others are just as secretive, pointing out clauses in licenses they agreed to. I’ve been told by windows experts about msdn and TechNet, but articles there are written with the assumption that you understand source code, or at least windows internals enough to read and understand them, and I don’t. I’ve gone off topic hear, so I’ll shut up now. I love the idea of NVDA being in the store. But, I still think we should support as many windows versions as we can. I know it’s a huge overhead and windows 10 is great and has all kinds of new technology and all that, but at the same time, people are going to use what they’re going to use. I think windows 7 is nearing the end of it’s life. Ms has already made it clear that new hardware, I believe sky lake and newer, will only run on windows 10. Then there’s secure boot and all that nonsense, so whether we like it or not everyone will be forced into staying on the newest windows eventually, and there I go again.

Thanks

Kendell Clark

 

 

Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:16:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
 
That is only the case because of rogue nations attempting to censor the web,
and some commercial interests prioritising their own content of course.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene New Zealand" <hurrikennyandopo@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?


> Hi
>
>
> the thing that comes to mind is it will be searchable through the store
> world wide on any persons computer running windows 10 compared to a
> website.
>
>
> |Gene nz
>
>
> On 12/26/2017 12:51 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
> Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past
> 3
> AM my time)...
> A bit of explaining is in order:
> Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
> time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem
> where
> NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
> focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
> using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows
> releases.
> Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in
> August
> 2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
> versions.
> Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
> use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have
> to
> go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate
> to
> a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
> (Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access
> and
> other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
> update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability
> to
> compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
> Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told
> some
> people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
> hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
> solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find
> yourself
> opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for
> and
> installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
> also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
> version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
> development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this
> can
> be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch
> snapshots
> are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
> inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
> code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
> saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
> (and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
> This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python
> 3?
> The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
> languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
> and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people
> taste
> what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers,
> and
> internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to
> help
> out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
> built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence
> the
> need to use the Unicode function when needed).
> Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
> native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure
> things
> are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
> us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
> contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons
> installed
> on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
> add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as
> add-ons
> are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
> lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
> easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
> in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
> tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
> Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
> effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
> python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code
> before
> asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
> add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
> this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
> powered by Python 3.
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
> Mail list account via Groups.Io
> Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
>
> Hi folks. I see a lot of  issues and  chat about doing this on github and
> other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
> discussions, is a reason for doing it.
> Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
> explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
> computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
> getting nvda to work better as it stands.
> I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
> for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
> development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
> We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
> universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
> somebody explain why in as plain a  language as one can. If somebody could
> do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
> calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
> Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you
> know!
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian
> Gaff'
> in the display name field.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> [Image NVDA          certified expert]
> Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
> material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you
> are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a
> copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out
> which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
> http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
> People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
> please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
> certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
> individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed
> the NVDA expert exam.
>





Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?

coffeekingms@hotmail.com
 

Hi

I agree with this message and it’s goals of having an NVDA app in the store. But I have some concerns as well. One of the most prominent being will ninite still be able to download and install this if NVDA transitions over to being store only? Second, this will pretty much eliminate any version of windows other than windows 10 and maybe 8 and 8.1, if the store apps on those can download the same apps windows 10 can, from using NVDA. This is  good and not good. There are lots of people who have to use older versions of windows, even older than the minimum NVDA supports. How do we handle this. Simply saying get with the times and upgrade isn’t always possible and even when possible isn’t always what the user wants. I’m not trying to start any debates hear, and I think NVDA in the store is a good thing. But it has to be done right. Preferably an option in the windows installer, or code in windows itself to download NVDA on install would be nice. But there are problems with that as well. That would make it convenient for NVDA users but would make use of NVDA compulsory and would take away the users ability to choose which program they want. It’s a huge circle that’s not really solveable. Also, can NVDA still remain open source if it’s in the windows store? I don’t understand the legal issues or licensing issues an app goes through when being added to the store but I’m assuming that there is some MS code required to be in all apps and that code is probably not going to be open. Certainly I see no license field when installing apps, it is just assumed all apps are proprietary. NVDA should not give up it’s open source status, at least in my opinion. But I love the idea of making NVDA development easier. I myself have struggled with this for years. I’ve tried a total of 5 times now to learn enough python to jump in and help NVDA out, to become an active developer. Jamie teh sort of got me passionate about that when he gave me his blind people should be able to use computers for free speech. I’ve failed every single time. Not because python is complex, although it is, but because trying to jump from print “hello world” to NVDA code is a huge, huge, huge leap. I learned just enough to, with help, add media keycodes to NVDA so when you press play in learn mode, NVDA says play pause. But no more. NVDA was just too complex. I don’t understand how the windows store runs apps it downloads, not completely. What little I do understand about it is that it virtualizes them, isolating them from the rest of the system to keep viruses from getting out while somehow still allowing it access to what it needs to run. This is one major disadvantage of running windows, I can’t look at internals. Ms is too secretive and because of their licenses, others are just as secretive, pointing out clauses in licenses they agreed to. I’ve been told by windows experts about msdn and TechNet, but articles there are written with the assumption that you understand source code, or at least windows internals enough to read and understand them, and I don’t. I’ve gone off topic hear, so I’ll shut up now. I love the idea of NVDA being in the store. But, I still think we should support as many windows versions as we can. I know it’s a huge overhead and windows 10 is great and has all kinds of new technology and all that, but at the same time, people are going to use what they’re going to use. I think windows 7 is nearing the end of it’s life. Ms has already made it clear that new hardware, I believe sky lake and newer, will only run on windows 10. Then there’s secure boot and all that nonsense, so whether we like it or not everyone will be forced into staying on the newest windows eventually, and there I go again.

Thanks

Kendell Clark

 

 

Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:16:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
 
That is only the case because of rogue nations attempting to censor the web,
and some commercial interests prioritising their own content of course.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene New Zealand" <hurrikennyandopo@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?


> Hi
>
>
> the thing that comes to mind is it will be searchable through the store
> world wide on any persons computer running windows 10 compared to a
> website.
>
>
> |Gene nz
>
>
> On 12/26/2017 12:51 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
> Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past
> 3
> AM my time)...
> A bit of explaining is in order:
> Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
> time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem
> where
> NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
> focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
> using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows
> releases.
> Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in
> August
> 2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
> versions.
> Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
> use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have
> to
> go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate
> to
> a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
> (Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access
> and
> other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
> update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability
> to
> compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
> Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told
> some
> people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
> hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
> solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find
> yourself
> opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for
> and
> installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
> also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
> version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
> development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this
> can
> be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch
> snapshots
> are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
> inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
> code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
> saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
> (and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
> This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python
> 3?
> The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
> languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
> and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people
> taste
> what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers,
> and
> internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to
> help
> out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
> built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence
> the
> need to use the Unicode function when needed).
> Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
> native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure
> things
> are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
> us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
> contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons
> installed
> on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
> add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as
> add-ons
> are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
> lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
> easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
> in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
> tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
> Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
> effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
> python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code
> before
> asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
> add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
> this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
> powered by Python 3.
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
> Mail list account via Groups.Io
> Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
>
> Hi folks. I see a lot of  issues and  chat about doing this on github and
> other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
> discussions, is a reason for doing it.
> Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
> explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
> computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
> getting nvda to work better as it stands.
> I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
> for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
> development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
> We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
> universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
> somebody explain why in as plain a  language as one can. If somebody could
> do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
> calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
> Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you
> know!
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian
> Gaff'
> in the display name field.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> [Image NVDA          certified expert]
> Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
> material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you
> are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a
> copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out
> which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
> http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
> People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
> please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
> certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
> individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed
> the NVDA expert exam.
>





Legally binding Seasons Greetings to all NVDA Users.

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

With a nod to similar texts seen elsewhere on the web today.

Please accept - with no obligation of any kind, whether oral or written,
actual or potential, explicit or implicit - our very best wishes for a
non-culture-specific, environmentally-conscious, socially-responsible,
low-stress, zero-carbon, non-addictive, gender-neutral,Disability friendly,
politically-correct happy holiday celebration of the winter solstice,
within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion or
secular practice of your choice (with due consideration for the
religious or secular persuasions or traditions of others, or for their
choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all, or for
genuine and legitimate differences of opinion as to the timing or
significance of the solstice), and a fiscally-successful,
personally-fulfilling and medically-uncomplicated recognition of the
onset of the generally-accepted calendar year 2018, but not without due
respect for the calendar choices of other cultures whose contributions
to society have helped to make America great (not to imply that America
is necessarily greater than any other country or is the only America in
the western or any hemisphere), and without regard to the wishee's race,
creed, color, age, religious faith, choice of computer platform,Screenreader ( I.E. Jaws or NVDA (Other readers are available)If visually impaired)
physical ability or sexual preference or prowess. By accepting this
greeting and not entering any defense or other plea with 14 days or such
other period as may be applicable as specified in federal or state law,
you are accepting the following terms: This greeting is subject to
clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no
alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher
actually to implement any of the wishes personally or for others. It is
revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. It is warranted to
perform as expected within the parameters for the reasonable application
of good tidings for a period of one year or until the issuance of a
subsequent holiday greeting, whichever shall first have occurred.
Warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new
wish at the sole discretion of the wisher. This greeting constitutes the
entire wish. It is void where prohibited by law. Should any part of this
greeting be held unlawful or otherwise invalid, all remaining parts
shall continue to have effect in terms of generally accepted wishing
traditions or conventions to the full extent permissible under law.
You are also permitted to reuse this greeting if so desired as long as the original source is not materially altered in any way, notwithstanding any changes needed to translate into the language required by your local laws, whether inside or outside of the jurisdiction it was originally created in.


Brian comments: I somehow imagine this inside a universal USA written Christmas card.
Note this text seems to grow each year, and in the spirit of humour I trust it was meant in, I hope our dear moderator will see fit not to get too annoyed by its publication here. No correspondence will be entered into over its suitability, and if sending replies, your challenge will be to include NVDA in the reply, but please do not quote the whole message.

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Re: New Blog Post: The GitHub Games Pt. 2 – Filing Your First Ticket

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I do feel that in the reporting of bugs in github some different parameters need to be set up.
1. Everyone who has an account should be automatically sent the emails that the web site creates of your issue. At the moment it seems this is not the case, indeed the inverse is true, you get all the posts except your own
2. The in field helpful suggestions about the info needed should be replaced by discreet fields for these items with explanatory text. This stops you overwriting the help text and getting confused about where to put the edits.
3.
A much simpler issue tracker front end should be used. Its fine saying ignore all the stuff aimed at the programmer but its very cluttered for anyone starting out and often if they cannot find what they wont in a couple of minutes they say f*** this, and post it either on the dev list or here where it normally languishes and is not noticed.



Of course the way the github system is designed might be so inflexible that the above cannot be done, I have no idea.
All I do know is that the Trac system was far more intuitive to report things or suggest things to.

Part of the strength of NVDA is its direct connection to the user community, and that to my mind has seemingly been lost in the last few years with experienced people posting the info on github.
Programmers and those who work with computers a lot are thus over represented in my opinion.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bhavya shah" <bhavya.shah125@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] New Blog Post: The GitHub Games Pt. 2 – Filing Your First Ticket


Hi all,
I agree with Adriani. It is often helpful to discuss a feature request
as well as report a bug on your respective language community e-groups
or on this NVDA Users International e-mail list. This aids in better
understanding the scope and relevance of an issue, which, in turn,
leads to a clearer and more specific ticket on GitHub. As the end
user, we should strive to minimize the time developers need to spend
testing or triaging issues.
As Brian suggested, I would be happy to lend my post series The GitHub
Games to be republished on the NVDA Wiki with source credit. Since
Quentin is on vacation presently, feel free to raise this to him
directly in case you would like The GitHub Games to be part of the
NVDA Wiki when Quentin is back.
GitHub can be slightly challenging initially, but once you get the
hang of it, it is fairly easy to work solely with its issue tracking
features without bothering with pull requests and code other
developer-oriented tools. Do let me know in case there are any other
specifics of GitHub that you would like me to cover in a future blog
post in this series.
One thing to look forward to in 2018, is that by next year, NV Access
will most likely have hired the quality assurance engineer they were
looking for a month or two ago this year. This means exactly what you
you, Brian, have been asking for and many others have also been
desiring.
Nevertheless, I would strongly encourage people to start trying GitHub
and NVDA’s issue tracker out, if you wish to convert your enthusiasm
towards this project into decently substantial contributions. Do refer
to The GitHub Games series along the way, and do not hesitate to ping
me in case you have specific questions.
Thanks.

On 12/21/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
I do feel a lot of this should be on a site inside nvaccess though,
personally.
One of the problems here is that often things get mentioned but nobody
decides who is going to actually report it on github.
I had perhaps hoped the dev list might fulfill this function as a kind of
triage area where devs look and thus can stop duplicates and send people
onto github after that.
One of the big issues with github is its attempt to be all things to all
people and ending up a bit of a mess, quite frankly if all you want to do is

report a problem.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bhavya shah" <bhavya.shah125@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 1:42 PM
Subject: [nvda] New Blog Post: The GitHub Games Pt. 2 – Filing Your First
Ticket


Dear all,
“As a user of an open source software such as NVDA, you have the
influence to transmit your voice directly to the forces coding that
software, by notifying them of critical bugs that you have
independently identified, by proposing new functionality that truly
takes NVDA to the next level, or simply by reducing the traffic
through which developers have to rummage by testing, replicating and
triaging issues filed by other users.”
The first step in learning to exercise that influence is what you must
take today. You can join the bandwagon by touring the bug tracking and
issue reporting features of GitHub along with me and learning to
report your first issue on the #NVDASR GitHub tracker. Check out the
latest Hiking Across Horizons blog post titled “The GitHub Games Pt. 2
– Filing Your First Ticket”.
Post URL:
https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/2017/12/21/the-github-games-pt-2-filing-your-first-ticket/
Blog Address: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/
Comments, feedback and suggestions are always welcome. :)
Thanks.

--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com
Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125
Mobile Number: +91 7506221750







--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com
Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125
Mobile Number: +91 7506221750


Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Did you not see my batch file. This was how that was done, but with a bit more human interface for the unwary.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@ca.inter.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


Nice.
Why don't you all use the good ole' "format" command though? It allows for
all filesystems and couldn't be similar. You don't even have to remember the
sswitches - the help screen describes everything.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Stephen
Sent: December 24, 2017 10:53 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment

YOu can format drives to fat32 with a 3rd party program, it's freeware.
http://www.ridgecrop.demon.co.uk/guiformat.htm
At 09:23 PM 12/24/2017, you wrote:
Hi
You're better at this than I am, I couldn't even have cobbled this
together. I can write a bash script to do it in Linux, since I know the
cintax better and I know the command line programs that format stuff,
but in windows? Not a chance. I never even considered that this was a
bug, I assumed ms deliberately removed it hoping people will migrate
over to the newer file systems. Which would be fine except that most
blindy devices only support a limited set of them, mostly windows ones,
or at least OS agnostic ones like fat and fat32. I do wish they would
add ext2/3/4, btrfs, xfs, and some other Linux file systems as native
support. It would go well with microsoft's supposed mission of
supporting the competition. It would go right in with wsl, windows
subsystem for Linux and their support for gmail and iCloud email
accounts. Whether it will happen though is anyone's guess. I didn't
think they'd ever make windows installation accessible and when they
did, they did it right, I have to say. Except for Cortana, that over
rides narrator until you turn it off, and I've asked them to disable
the speech intro if narrator is on. Still allow Cortana functionality,
just disable the perky speech intro in favor of narrators, since it
announces the intro anyway.


Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook


----------
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:41:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment

It does give a list no, but I guess some kind of addition could be
made. I have tweaked my system so that the drive letter is always e or
f, but the one I need to not format is m .
Its very quick, some might say lazy. Ahem. I don't suggest I'm any
good at this stuff, just know enough to get by... :-)
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hi

Thanks a lot for that little script, it was exactly what I was looking for.
Something to put on my desktop to to click on when I get a new flash drive.
Looking at the code, it seems to ask which stick to use, but does it
actually give a list of sticks, or do you need to provide the drive letter?
Also, a prompt for the volume label or name would be nice, but I think
I can edit the script to add that since the language doesn't seem too hard.
Something like /p "volume name?" or similar?

Thanks

Kendell Clark





Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook



________________________________
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 2:56:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment

Just in case I was thinking of this from my Windows 7 machine.
Does this work in 10?

@echo off


set /p drive= Which stick should I use?
echo Please wait...

format %drive%:/fs:fat32/v:tested
pause
exit

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io"
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hmm, this would be important to know as the majority of audio
players for the blind that play ram sticks will not read ntfs.
I'm sure you know most of these players only work on the order of
files written, not on the file names as well.
It seems a little odd to remove such an option.

Luckily most players can read fat, and most generic sticks I see are
pre formatted in that way.
Tell me, what about the command line way of formatting?

If you don't know the syntax I can get it for you.
Brian


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----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:25 AM
Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hi all
This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after
unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book
player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has
the XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The
digital player can read neither of these file systems. I've
submitted feedback to ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who
knows if it will happen. This is a problem because unless the dp's
firmware is updated, extremely unlikely, people who use windows 10
won't be able to format new flash drives or reformat old ones
without using another program, which I'm sure exist. They won't be
able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the functionality.
This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard drives have
only the ntfs option. I'm posting hear because I'm not subscribed to
the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it's off topic, but I
wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide
workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.

Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
















Re: Daisy players and nvda was - important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Well there you are then. I guess those players have a different module. Ours are very cheap indeed. Of course if you are talking Daisy, then those players do have a rudimentary file system, and hence can use named files.
Most people over here can not afford Daisy and tend if they are computer literate to use computer based players, but the old and those with no computers can get players coming in at under 30 uk pounds.


On software Daisy, many are annoyingly self voicing. Which of the software players can work with nvda I wonder and can have their irritating internal voice nav turned off?
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@roadrunner.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hi Brian,


As concerns the players and how to label them, the opposite is true with the US produced National Library Service (NLS) players. I routinely use numbering with leading zeros to get the files/folders to play in the order I want.



On 12/25/2017 4:57 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Well having no access to a car.....:-)
Interestingly, we get far more reliable sticks if formatted at fat32 than if its fat. I have no idea exactly why though.
This is basically off topic, but let me also impart some knowledge about ram stick players for the blind which I have gleaned.
1. The players do not care about file names.
2. They will play recordings in the order they were copied to the stick, ie, its no good giving them names like 00000001.mp3
000000002.mp3 and copying 2 before 1 as that will mean 2 plays first.

3. copying from a batch file tends to preserve order of copies, as does copying a folder with files in it
4. If copied using a batch file it seems you do not get caching which means you do not have to tick safely remove when you have finished.


The players used for these tests are the Kings Audio ones.

Happy Christmas to all and don't eat too much pudding.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@ca.inter.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


Interesting thread, guys.

I never thought of a batch sscript to do the trick. But yes, all file
systems are still available using the "format" command from cmd or
powershell.



It's not just the devices for the blind that use Fat32. As I pointed out in
a previous post, car stereos do as well. It would be very unwise of MS to
remove support for it. For one thing, NTFS is a Windows file system that is
not supported by many other devices/oses. Fat can work with basically
anything, even though it has limitations. They're the kind of limitations
that don't really matter when you just want to have music in your car, or
whatever.







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
coffeekingms@hotmail.com
Sent: December 24, 2017 5:24 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment



Hi

You're better at this than I am, I couldn't even have cobbled this together.
I can write a bash script to do it in Linux, since I know the cintax better
and I know the command line programs that format stuff, but in windows? Not
a chance. I never even considered that this was a bug, I assumed ms
deliberately removed it hoping people will migrate over to the newer file
systems. Which would be fine except that most blindy devices only support a
limited set of them, mostly windows ones, or at least OS agnostic ones like
fat and fat32. I do wish they would add ext2/3/4, btrfs, xfs, and some other
Linux file systems as native support. It would go well with microsoft's
supposed mission of supporting the competition. It would go right in with
wsl, windows subsystem for Linux and their support for gmail and iCloud
email accounts. Whether it will happen though is anyone's guess. I didn't
think they'd ever make windows installation accessible and when they did,
they did it right, I have to say. Except for Cortana, that over rides
narrator until you turn it off, and I've asked them to disable the speech
intro if narrator is on. Still allow Cortana functionality, just disable the
perky speech intro in favor of narrators, since it announces the intro
anyway.





Thanks

Kendell Clark





Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook



_____

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:41:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment



It does give a list no, but I guess some kind of addition could be made. I
have tweaked my system so that the drive letter is always e or f, but the
one I need to not format is m .
Its very quick, some might say lazy. Ahem. I don't suggest I'm any good at
this stuff, just know enough to get by... :-)
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


Hi

Thanks a lot for that little script, it was exactly what I was looking for.
Something to put on my desktop to to click on when I get a new flash drive.
Looking at the code, it seems to ask which stick to use, but does it
actually give a list of sticks, or do you need to provide the drive letter?
Also, a prompt for the volume label or name would be nice, but I think I can

edit the script to add that since the language doesn't seem too hard.
Something like /p "volume name?" or similar?

Thanks

Kendell Clark





Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook



________________________________
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 2:56:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment

Just in case I was thinking of this from my Windows 7 machine.
Does this work in 10?

@echo off


set /p drive= Which stick should I use?
echo Please wait...

format %drive%:/fs:fat32/v:tested
pause
exit

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io"
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


Hmm, this would be important to know as the majority of audio players for
the blind that play ram sticks will not read ntfs.
I'm sure you know most of these players only work on the order of files
written, not on the file names as well.
It seems a little odd to remove such an option.

Luckily most players can read fat, and most generic sticks I see are pre
formatted in that way.
Tell me, what about the command line way of formatting?

If you don't know the syntax I can get it for you.
Brian


bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:25 AM
Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for
flash drives for the moment


Hi all
This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after
unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book
player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has the
XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The digital
player can read neither of these file systems. I've submitted feedback to
ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who knows if it will happen. This
is a problem because unless the dp's firmware is updated, extremely
unlikely, people who use windows 10 won't be able to format new flash
drives or reformat old ones without using another program, which I'm sure
exist. They won't be able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the
functionality. This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard
drives have only the ntfs option. I'm posting hear because I'm not
subscribed to the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it's off topic, but
I wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide
workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.

Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
















--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

That is only the case because of rogue nations attempting to censor the web, and some commercial interests prioritising their own content of course.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene New Zealand" <hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?


Hi


the thing that comes to mind is it will be searchable through the store world wide on any persons computer running windows 10 compared to a website.


|Gene nz


On 12/26/2017 12:51 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past 3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python 3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers, and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?

Hi folks. I see a lot of issues and chat about doing this on github and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a language as one can. If somebody could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you know!

Brian

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--
[Image NVDA certified expert]
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

It would probably cost more than an I phone 10.
The one that shatters if you drop it. Next version includes retro rockets obviously! grin.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials


Yeah, and wifi and stuff.

If humanware had a trecker phone I'd buy one why not.




On 25/12/2017 11:05 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
I was thinking more in the region of cost. Many of us watch costs, but if its for work in many well off economies, the equipment and software is purchased by the state.
Think of the Braille display. A lot has been made of late of these being used by nvda and indeed mainstream gear like Apple products, but really unless the person is well off these devices are a luxury unless bought by an organisation or government.

The same can be said of all the other devices. Also if you want things to be portable, you want to have a solution that does not demand you take half a truck load of gear everywhere you go.
I had to chuckle the other day when Humanware launched their Trek, which is basically a media player, downloader and GPs in a box.
If they only added a cellular modem and a camera, they would have a phone.

Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials


Well dedicated hardware while costing a bit has a few advantages.

1. bigger speakers, no added destractions etc.

The issue of all on one device is that especially with traditional headphone jacks going you can't just connect a pair of speakers anymore.

Even with that out the way, if you load your smartphone with a lot of stuff, you will still use that power.

Bluetooth, gps, and data use a lot if you are not carefull never mind that if you are not in the country you registered in the data will cost a lot so you will need to turn that off.

Unless you are on wifi and some of that can be not secured.

Even if you have extra batteries with the revelations of apple slowing devices, you will now have to add in new devices costs or batteries for that device.

Most dedicated devices at least quite a few will either have their battery which they use or if you are lucky use standard off the shelf batteries which actually don't cost that much especially if you buy that in a bundle.

I have a lot of electronics using aa and tripple aa battery types, and it costs not much to run any of them.




On 24/12/2017 10:18 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Well I'm not so sure this is the whole story. I notice that the same argument is going on on the hardware front now. IE a smart phone can do most of what a media player, OCR machine, and navigational aid did. The people are still trying to sell such hardware, and I'd imagine in certain cases, they might have a a use, ie if the user has poor feeling in their hands or a tremor etc, but for the masses, no.
As I noted before, I don't like the kind of computer access Dolphin Guide gives. Its just a suite of self voicing software. It traps you.
Than goodness people can now put nvda on such machines and then when folk like me come along to help them when windows throws a wobbly we can.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Sky Mundell" <skyt@shaw.ca>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials


I totally agree with you. You are absolutely right. Screen readers should certainly be a social impact. The reason there is capital invested in it is because the agencies are the ones who are funding the capital.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials



Brian,



With respect to investing money globally to make screen reader users more computer literate, well believe or not there was always a solution for that. A screen reader should imply a social movement and not a gain of capital out of selling. There are lots of development institutions, Christian Blind Mission, blind federations and lots of other non governamental organizations which support everything which gives people access to education, information and technology. But in the last 30 years, many people hoped to gain money out of selling licenses and did not really concentrate on learning the user detailed aspects on how to use that software. Thus, users became more and more change resistent because they invested lot of time to learn by themselves how to use it productively. In my opinion, we should not only think about technical aspects of a screen reader, but also about social impact and user interaction.



Best

Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 24.12.2017 um 04:44 schrieb Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>:

Certainly I do understand the burned out part of this its the same for all volunteers. if we are good at what we do we are in demand and take on more and more. it was only a comment from somebody else that made me try to bring a sense of realism to life. You cannot be a one man fixer of everything, and the cemeteries are full of people who were indispensable.

Most screenreader users are just that, users, many of us know the basics of what is going on, but really, its now so complex its beyond all but the few to grasp it all.

Obviously as we kind of slip into a world very much like we used to have in the 80s, where computers run lots of different operating systems and even windows differs in the internals between many different systems, the problems of access move from the screenreader to the platform.

that is, NVDA will probably be OK on mainstream Windows computers for some years, but with tablets, phones and various different processors and operating systems now coming in, its going to be the user who has to change and become expert in many more interfaces, as clearly, what we use in Windows today with a keyboard may not fit in any way the interface of the future.

Sadly the problem is as it always has been, training and the cost and indeed the ability of blind people particularly the older ones to actually grasp the abstract concepts and enable them to see equivalents and have a grasp of what is actually going on.

I really think that somebody needs to invest a lot more money globally in trying to get more blind people computer literate, but its just not happening, so although in theory we have access, not everyone will be able to actually use it.



Change is life after all, and people going to take other jobs is normal. the problem for nvda is that the two people who started it were visionary, and not everyone can share the vision, if you get my drift.

I don't know what is about to happen to tech, but it seems to me that nobody does. Who could have predicted this year that tablet sales have dropped but laptop and desktop sales are up. I suspect its down to novelty wearing off and nothing really new on the market just revamps of what has gone before.

Personally, my gut tells me that although cloud computing can be good in some cases, many people do not want to pitch all their eggs into somebody elses basket. Its the same reason I still buy CDs. I don't want somebody taking my access away due to whatever. The danger at the moment is that the net is going down the packet priority road as well, another legal form of highway robbery in my view.

As for surveys, yes, well I already told you my opinion of those. Almost be better to use some tracking system, like a cookie to see what is on any given machine, but many would find that intrusive even though if you own an Android device its more or less going on now.

Its all about trust and whether you can always trust others with data about you.

If it can be created it can be hacked and messed about with. Bots are all over the place after all.

If you cannot trust the metrics one gets then the data collected becomes worthless.

Anyway I'm up in the night again wibbling on. Look at it this way, it matters what happens to nvda, but in the great scheme of life, what really matters is trying to be happy while you are here on the planet. You cannot own other people like Mick or Jamie.



Its not right or fair to expect people to be some kind of God.

Been there got the TO Shirt, and the community awards etc, and for what?

I prefer now to just help if I can but not to get so het up that it makes my life owned by others.

Big mistake.

Brian


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----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee <mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 5:25 PM

Subject: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials



Dear NVDA community,



As I read messages on recent discussions, I realized just how much enthusiasm and concern people have over NVDA and its future. At the same time, it became clear to me that I and other developers and community elders need a day off and just listen to you all, as listening allows us to think about what others are saying and plan things accordingly.



But first, a humble opinion about surveys and other points:



First, when calls for the seventh Web AIM survey went out, I told people to not just do it to “increase” market share. I specifically told screen reader companies to not coerce users to do it, but let people take it out of their own willingness. This advice was to avoid a fiasco that happened with Web AIM 6 where AI Squared (now part of VFO) staff told Window-Eyes users to fill out the survey in mass numbers, which became a small controversy within the screen reading world, and to me, making Web AIM results no longer credible.



As some folks pointed out, Web AIM numbers depend on how many people fill it out and where they come from (and this is true of any surveys where word of mouth drives participation). The results also depend on demographics and other factors such as choices given, how the questions are worded, and overall objective. If one or more data points seems to be dominant, they can be either skewed or outliers, with the more extreme cases being termed “outliers” and they affect how the results are explicated (interpreted). Even skewed data, such as what I can perceive from some surveys including recent Web AIM iterations can affect statistical calculations to a point where it raises genuine questions about bias, credibility, and others (after all, success of statistics, particularly inferential statistics, depends on a representative sample or a close equivalent that allows researchers to approximate the real world, which is prone to errors if not done correctly such as misinterpretation, bad outliers, only some groups participating, not looking at things more deeply and what not).



One important thing to note is that Web AIM is a representative survey, thus the result in front of me could reflect reality. However, due to recent controversy, possible type I and II errors (false-positive and false-negative, respectively) and because of outliers and skewed data and participation, it does not truly reflect actual data, which is a point some folks here are trying to say and I concur with. My explication of Web AIM 7 is that, in some parts of the world, JAWS for Windows is more popular. However, given the fact that not all geographical regions are represented, I’d counter by saying that this is not a true representative sample that includes every continent, and if it did, the story would be different and will reflect reality a bit better (not a lot because there are other ways of skewing data such as filling it out on behalf of an organization, robotic fillers and so on). Coupled with the fact that Web AIM went through a major controversy recently that damaged its credibility somewhat, I would dare not trust Web AIM results again.



This leads to my second point: quantity versus quality. If NV Access went straight for quantity alone, they could have implemented all possible feature requests in hopes of boosting market share. The reality in front of us says otherwise: not all feature requests are here. Numerous factors contribute to this problem:



* Lack of leading developers: in 2017, a long-time NVDA developer started working for another organization, and NV Access has been looking for his replacement ever since. Even if the replacement is found, it’ll take several months for him or her to become used to this community, learn about accessibility and how to interact with members, and earn our trust (it took Reef Turner a year to fully earn our trust). Folks can counter this by saying that there are countless contributors out there, but ultimately what gets into NVDA depends on pull requests and review time from NV Access.
* Attitudes about open-source software from organizations: as some folks pointed out, there are prevailing attitudes about open-source in organizations that makes it a bit harder for NVDA to land on their computers, which allows developers to assess true needs of organizations through user feedback. Without valuable feedback from organizations (a quality one at that), we won’t see huger progress in NVDA development.
* Outside attitudes about the NVDA community: from the inside, NVDA community is seen as a tight nit of enthusiasts who strives to make NVDA better every day. On the outside, however, we have a mixed bag of reputations, from admiration to honorable mentions to disdain. Every organization have these mixed reputations, especially more so for a community powered by technology such as Linux kernel developers, web browser vendors and web standards organizations, and even screen reader community. Not only we need to show that we are united inside, we need to showcase unity outside of this community.
* Inside matters just as outside: public relations outside of NVDA community is important, but unity within an organization is just as important as public organizational face (I’ll address developer’s point of view below). What makes NVDA stand out is our unity despite coming from different circumstances and backgrounds.



Most of these point to quality, not quantity alone. In summary, quantity is important, but quality is just as important as how many people download NVDA 2017.4 between Christmas and New Year.



Lastly, in regards to organization internals, I’d like to address something I really wanted to say for the past few weeks: sometimes, I felt burnt out. My initial response to your enthusiasm over my audio tutorials was that I’ll ask for justifications for producing an updated version, seeing that there are countless free videos and tutorials out there. This was partly because I truly felt burnt out with academics, speech and debate competitions and what not (especially after a debate regarding a potential feature held not long ago), at one point telling myself that I’ll retire from the NVDA community sooner than later and feeling as though I carried important burdens on my shoulders. But you didn’t see that justification post; instead, I posted links to where you can download the 2018 version of my audio tutorial series. In effect, I’ve given up my Christmas holidays for this community, knowing that I needed a time to listen to you all and do something about it. All this was possible because of a simple act of listening and thinking about what the community means to me and what my work means to everyone. I’m committed to finishing Welcome to NVDA 2018 series before NVDA 2018.1 ships, with several addenda coming after that, all because of support from this community and outsiders. And I promise again: The Welcome to NVDA 2018 series was, and will remain, free for all. All I ask of you in return is donate to a cause that makes equal access to technology possible, especially during this holiday season and beyond.



I’m sure for many of you, my musings above are a bit hard to digest. Now you know why I don’t trust Web AIM survey results, quality is just as important as quantity, and read a confession from a community leader on his inner feelings. But there are two more things you need to know, something all of us needs to think about:



Community leaders won’t stay with you forever. In early 2017, I sensed that a long-time NVDA developer would leave this community for something better. Only I and others didn’t know until summer that it would be Jamie moving onto Mozilla Foundation.



I also felt, back in early 2017, that my active time with the NVDA community is slowly drawing to a close. I don’t know when it’ll happen, but I’ve been laying foundations for the next generation of developers and enthusiasts to take the lead. This is one of the reasons for setting up the devlearning subgroup, because I felt it is time for me and other leaders to teach NVDA internals and other concepts to the next group of community leaders and developers so they can bring NVDA to the next level and do more amazing things than I and others did (in my case, for the past five years).



Lastly, I sense a time when this community will face a sharp divide to a point where people will start questioning the merits of this community. I only told a select few earlier because it wasn’t right for me to disclose it early and for them to prepare a plan. The screen shade debate is, in fact, a sort of a preview of what is to come. One of the fundamental questions you will face at that time will be whether you still have your first love for NVDA, and whether you still have your original reasons for joining this community. The survival of this community at that time will depend on your ability to unite to face a difficult situation, even if that means facing possible splits. One thing you should NOT do at that time: ignoring new users and outside critics, because they are influential opinion leaders and are key stakeholders in NVDA’s future. One thing you SHOULD do though: listen to others and think critically.



Hope this makes sense.

Merry (early) Christmas,

Joseph






.






Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

For many years a free HP program used to allow all sorts of format options for all sorts of discs, and I used it a lot. The only reason I used batch was because I could script it and whiz through a hundred in no time at all.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hi
Fair point about reFS. Wikipedia didn’t specifically say that it was ms’s proprietary raid, I sort of paraphrased it. What it actually said was a lot of complex language regarding sector allocation, data stripes, and the like. It sounded like raid and it seemed to work similar to raid, but I think it may actually be most similar to btrfs on Linux or maybe zfs on bsd. To dumb it down a bit, it’s supposed to provide better redundancy if a disk fails and provide better recovery if a disk runs into problems. I believe it also compresses stuff by default, but again I’m no expert.
In any case, I’ve started using guiformat.exe and it works like a charm until Microsoft restores the functionality, or fixes the bug if it is a bug.
Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

________________________________
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 6:05:21 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Hi,
Correction: although ReFS integrates some RAID features, it isn’t really a complete RAID solution.
Cheers,
Joseph

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Hi,
FAT32 can format drives up to 2 terabytes maximum, and 32 GB is the artificial limit imposed. ReFS (Resilient File System), contrary to what you may have read on Wikipedia, is not Microsoft’s version of RAID (Redundant Array of Independent Disks). The file system structure is a bit similar in concept but it is not RAID, as ReFS is designed for large storage pools and for data integrity on those pools (you can’t boot from a ReFS volume, and you can’t read ReFS formatted pools unless you have Windows 10 Version 1709 or Server 1709).
Cheers,
Joseph

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of coffeekingms@hotmail.com<mailto:coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 3:57 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hi

I’m not absolutely positive the fat32 feature is gone, but I *think* it is. My reasons are because on flash drives, only the XFat and ntfs options are visible, and on external hard drives, or more correctly, external hard drives above a certain size, what that size is I’m not sure, only the ntfs option is usable, along with something called reFS, which Wikipedia says is microsoft’s proprietary implementation of raid. There are tools to do this I have no doubt, several people have pointed out programs. My reason for posting it hear was because this was able to be done out of the box before and it isn’t now. I’m puzzled by the removal, if it is a removal. It is always possible NVDA suddenly can’t see the option, and I’ll check with narrator really quickly but I doubt that’s the problem. It’s either deliberate or a bug. If it is a bug it’s a recent one, because I don’t remember having this problem a month or so ago, so that narrows down the list of updates that could’ve caused it. But windows isn’t … well it’s not as open as I’m used to so it’s harder to debug. It can be done but when you’re used to Linux and it’s internals being available … That’s another reason I want to get involved with NVDA development, or at least involved in the community. I want to get as comfortable with windows as I am with Linux, to the point where I’m able to essentially take it apart to fix if needed. Right now I’d say I’m barely above an average user with windows. If that.



Thanks

Kendell Clark





Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook



________________________________
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 4:11:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Yes a friend has a big drive formatted in some way, but it would not play
on the stick player. take the data off format it to fat32, copy it back and
hey presto. it works, though I'd not go for his choice in music.
I'm glad the batch file worked, and as you say there are programs out there
that do this, however one has to wonder why Msoft would remove a normal
format mode from the gui. are we absolutely sure its gone, and its not just
an nvda issue that cannot see the button or checkbox?
Also does the program also do a verify?
I note that windows says it is doing it, but I have my doubts that its
doing more than reading the fat.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Giles Turnbull" <giles.turnbull@gmail.com<mailto:giles.turnbull@gmail.com>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


I ran into this problem when I replaced my Booksense book reader with a
Blaze earlier this year. I decided I'd buy a 128Gb SD card, which I quicly
found the Blaze couldn't handle. I knew the Booksense was limited to 32Gb
and later found out the Blaze is can handle max 64Gb. I found that out when
I emailed HIMS because I was fed up at having an unusable 128Gb drive!

They suggested FAT32 formatter with a GUI that worked fine for me with NVDA.
It is called guiformat.exe and I found it with a quick Google search. It has
a combo box with all available drives and lets you choose the allocation
unit size and lets you label the drive with whatever name you like.

My Blaze ET handles the FAT32 formatted 128Gb SD card fine.

Giles


Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Thanks, clear as mud. Not from you but nobody seems to have asked Microsoft what on earth they are playing at. Its damn stupid to remove stuff people use, even if its seen as a legacy system people have reasons for using these and making them either use batch or command line or third party apps is just plain stupid.
Its kind of like when apple took away its earphone jack on their phones. Just a bonkers decision.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hi,

FAT32 can format drives up to 2 terabytes maximum, and 32 GB is the
artificial limit imposed. ReFS (Resilient File System), contrary to what you
may have read on Wikipedia, is not Microsoft's version of RAID (Redundant
Array of Independent Disks). The file system structure is a bit similar in
concept but it is not RAID, as ReFS is designed for large storage pools and
for data integrity on those pools (you can't boot from a ReFS volume, and
you can't read ReFS formatted pools unless you have Windows 10 Version 1709
or Server 1709).

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
coffeekingms@hotmail.com
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 3:57 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment



Hi

I'm not absolutely positive the fat32 feature is gone, but I *think* it is.
My reasons are because on flash drives, only the XFat and ntfs options are
visible, and on external hard drives, or more correctly, external hard
drives above a certain size, what that size is I'm not sure, only the ntfs
option is usable, along with something called reFS, which Wikipedia says is
microsoft's proprietary implementation of raid. There are tools to do this I
have no doubt, several people have pointed out programs. My reason for
posting it hear was because this was able to be done out of the box before
and it isn't now. I'm puzzled by the removal, if it is a removal. It is
always possible NVDA suddenly can't see the option, and I'll check with
narrator really quickly but I doubt that's the problem. It's either
deliberate or a bug. If it is a bug it's a recent one, because I don't
remember having this problem a month or so ago, so that narrows down the
list of updates that could've caused it. But windows isn't . well it's not
as open as I'm used to so it's harder to debug. It can be done but when
you're used to Linux and it's internals being available . That's another
reason I want to get involved with NVDA development, or at least involved in
the community. I want to get as comfortable with windows as I am with Linux,
to the point where I'm able to essentially take it apart to fix if needed.
Right now I'd say I'm barely above an average user with windows. If that.



Thanks

Kendell Clark





Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook



_____

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io
<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> >
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 4:11:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment



Yes a friend has a big drive formatted in some way, but it would not play
on the stick player. take the data off format it to fat32, copy it back and
hey presto. it works, though I'd not go for his choice in music.
I'm glad the batch file worked, and as you say there are programs out there

that do this, however one has to wonder why Msoft would remove a normal
format mode from the gui. are we absolutely sure its gone, and its not just
an nvda issue that cannot see the button or checkbox?
Also does the program also do a verify?
I note that windows says it is doing it, but I have my doubts that its
doing more than reading the fat.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Giles Turnbull" <giles.turnbull@gmail.com
<mailto:giles.turnbull@gmail.com> >
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


I ran into this problem when I replaced my Booksense book reader with a
Blaze earlier this year. I decided I'd buy a 128Gb SD card, which I quicly
found the Blaze couldn't handle. I knew the Booksense was limited to 32Gb
and later found out the Blaze is can handle max 64Gb. I found that out when
I emailed HIMS because I was fed up at having an unusable 128Gb drive!

They suggested FAT32 formatter with a GUI that worked fine for me with NVDA.

It is called guiformat.exe and I found it with a quick Google search. It has

a combo box with all available drives and lets you choose the allocation
unit size and lets you label the drive with whatever name you like.

My Blaze ET handles the FAT32 formatted 128Gb SD card fine.

Giles








Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes, But what is the actual point of having nvda in the Windows store in the first place?
From what I can see, most users will need to run add ons, which will mean running it as a normal app, and in that case they might as well get it from nvaccess.
The only people who will benefit from it being in the store are those running Windows 10S, the rubbish restricted hands tied behind back version of the operating system. Surely in this context, Narrator itself is going to have better access, being part of the operating system, albeit a bit slow and clunky.
I also don't understand how, for example, Google Chrome can actually be allowed to have a mere stub to load in normal Chrome in the Microsoft store.
If that is a way around it, why are we bothering to do all the work? One assumes Chrome is going to be the same as nvda, in that it can either run with its hands tied or normally in the same code. I'm sure this whole mess with Firefox is due to the same strange concept of Microsofts.
As I said in a previous post, most people are distrustful of Microsofts real agenda here, and so many would choose to continue with normal Windows, Normal Office and normal apps.
The other down side of so called universal apps and the restrictions of the system is that they seem to have abandoned a user interface that is the same for all. Its a ruddy free for all in this area, making apps that run under it really hard to learn as one has to throw all knowledge out and then try to understand what a particular author has in fact done.

I'm not having a go at nvda here, as we have to live in the world as it is, its just that for many blind people we feel that the rug is being pulled out from below us just as we are getting equal access.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?


Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past 3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python 3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers, and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?

Hi folks. I see a lot of issues and chat about doing this on github and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a language as one can. If somebody could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you know!

Brian

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Re: New Blog Post: The GitHub Games Pt. 2 – Filing Your First Ticket

Bhavya shah
 

Hi all,
I agree with Adriani. It is often helpful to discuss a feature request
as well as report a bug on your respective language community e-groups
or on this NVDA Users International e-mail list. This aids in better
understanding the scope and relevance of an issue, which, in turn,
leads to a clearer and more specific ticket on GitHub. As the end
user, we should strive to minimize the time developers need to spend
testing or triaging issues.
As Brian suggested, I would be happy to lend my post series The GitHub
Games to be republished on the NVDA Wiki with source credit. Since
Quentin is on vacation presently, feel free to raise this to him
directly in case you would like The GitHub Games to be part of the
NVDA Wiki when Quentin is back.
GitHub can be slightly challenging initially, but once you get the
hang of it, it is fairly easy to work solely with its issue tracking
features without bothering with pull requests and code other
developer-oriented tools. Do let me know in case there are any other
specifics of GitHub that you would like me to cover in a future blog
post in this series.
One thing to look forward to in 2018, is that by next year, NV Access
will most likely have hired the quality assurance engineer they were
looking for a month or two ago this year. This means exactly what you
you, Brian, have been asking for and many others have also been
desiring.
Nevertheless, I would strongly encourage people to start trying GitHub
and NVDA’s issue tracker out, if you wish to convert your enthusiasm
towards this project into decently substantial contributions. Do refer
to The GitHub Games series along the way, and do not hesitate to ping
me in case you have specific questions.
Thanks.

On 12/21/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
I do feel a lot of this should be on a site inside nvaccess though,
personally.
One of the problems here is that often things get mentioned but nobody
decides who is going to actually report it on github.
I had perhaps hoped the dev list might fulfill this function as a kind of
triage area where devs look and thus can stop duplicates and send people
onto github after that.
One of the big issues with github is its attempt to be all things to all
people and ending up a bit of a mess, quite frankly if all you want to do is

report a problem.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bhavya shah" <bhavya.shah125@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 1:42 PM
Subject: [nvda] New Blog Post: The GitHub Games Pt. 2 – Filing Your First
Ticket


Dear all,
“As a user of an open source software such as NVDA, you have the
influence to transmit your voice directly to the forces coding that
software, by notifying them of critical bugs that you have
independently identified, by proposing new functionality that truly
takes NVDA to the next level, or simply by reducing the traffic
through which developers have to rummage by testing, replicating and
triaging issues filed by other users.”
The first step in learning to exercise that influence is what you must
take today. You can join the bandwagon by touring the bug tracking and
issue reporting features of GitHub along with me and learning to
report your first issue on the #NVDASR GitHub tracker. Check out the
latest Hiking Across Horizons blog post titled “The GitHub Games Pt. 2
– Filing Your First Ticket”.
Post URL:
https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/2017/12/21/the-github-games-pt-2-filing-your-first-ticket/
Blog Address: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/
Comments, feedback and suggestions are always welcome. :)
Thanks.

--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com
Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125
Mobile Number: +91 7506221750







--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com
Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125
Mobile Number: +91 7506221750


New Blog Post: What If Santa Claus Suddenly Went Blind?

Bhavya shah
 

Dear all,
It’s Christmas time, so Santa Claus is probably zooming around the
planet doling out gifts as we speak. But what if, one day,  Father
Christmas suddenly went blind, i.e. lost all his eyesight and was left
with no useful vision? Along with his elves and reindeer, would he be
able to continue fulfilling his annual promised of delivering presents
to all the well-behaved children on the globe? Check out the results
of this thought experiment by checking out the newest Hiking Across
Horizons blog post titled “What If Santa Claus Suddenly Went Blind?”
Post URL: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/2017/12/25/what-if-santa-claus-suddenly-went-blind/
Blog Address: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/
Merry Christmas!
P.S. While this isn't strictly related to NVDA, it is pertinent to
blindness and involves Santa using a few interesting technological
adaptations, thus leading me to believe that this might be of interest
to you. All the same, I have taken prior permission from the group
owner for posting this.

--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com
Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125
Mobile Number: +91 7506221750


Introducing Golden Cursor generation 2 #addonrelease

 

Ladies and gentlemen,

 

On behalf of NVDA add-ons community, I’m pleased to introduce to you the opening of the next frontier in mouse navigation in the form of Golden Cursor generation 2! Golden Cursor is more golden than ever before: move the mouse pointer with the arrow keys, save mouse positions for apps, and jump to specific mouse positions, all with the help from this add-on that opened up possibilities for many.

 

Highlights of Golden Cursor 2.0 include completely redesigned mouse positions dialog (formerly saved positions list), save add-on settings such as mouse units across sessions, ability to specify custom mouse movement units (even for different applications), a completely new way to specify mouse position when you wish to move somewhere else and more. Another key addition is Mouse Arrows mode where by pressing a specific command you can turn arrow keys into a convenient track ball (yes, you heard it right), and ability to jump to a saved mouse position straight from mouse positions list by pressing Enter key on the desired tag. Speaking of mouse positions dialog, it received a complete design overhaul, including a new look and displaying mouse coordinates for each tag. When it comes to repositioning the mouse, you can now specify positions for X and/or Y coordinates, plus you can either type the new position or use up or down arrow keys to select a position.

 

Note: Golden Cursor 2.0 requires NVDA 2017.3 and later. Also, due to changes made to how mouse positions are stored, .gc files from 1.x cannot be used on 2.0 and later and vice versa. If you’ve used Golden Cursor 1.4 or earlier, old positions will be migrated when you install 2.0.

 

The add-on can be found at:

https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/goldenCursor.en.html

 

I (Joseph Lee, the caretaker maintainer) would like to thank folks for feedback and helping out with code edits. Special thanks to a certain person named Robert who helped out with code dependencies.

 

Technical: for those keeping an eye on source code changes, more than 70 percent of the add-on has been rewritten.

 

For folks using Golden Cursor 2.0 release candidate: upgrading to 2.0 is mandatory due to migration as a result of folder location changes.

 

Enjoy.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Tech support: a possible training session during NVDACon 2018

Rui Fontes
 

Hello!


Às 06:27 de 24/12/2017, Carlos escreveu:
    The training modules should be translated by members of the
community in as many languages/tongues as possible!

I am waiting by authorization of NV Access to do it...

Rui Fontes


Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Sarah k Alawami
 

If XFat is supported by the nls player you could use that I think.

Good luck.

On Dec 25, 2017, at 12:50 PM, JM Casey <crystallogic@...> wrote:

Nice.
Why don't you all use the good ole' "format" command though? It allows for
all filesystems and couldn't be similar. You don't even have to remember the
sswitches - the help screen describes everything.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Stephen
Sent: December 24, 2017 10:53 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment

YOu can format drives to fat32 with a 3rd party program, it's freeware.
http://www.ridgecrop.demon.co.uk/guiformat.htm
At 09:23 PM 12/24/2017, you wrote:
Hi
You're better at this than I am, I couldn't even have cobbled this 
together. I can write a bash script to do it in Linux, since I know the 
cintax better and I know the command line programs that format stuff, 
but in windows? Not a chance. I never even considered that this was a 
bug, I assumed ms deliberately removed it hoping people will migrate 
over to the newer file systems. Which would be fine except that most 
blindy devices only support a limited set of them, mostly windows ones, 
or at least OS agnostic ones like fat and fat32. I do wish they would 
add ext2/3/4, btrfs, xfs, and some other Linux file systems as native 
support. It would go well with microsoft's supposed mission of 
supporting the competition. It would go right in with wsl, windows 
subsystem for Linux and their support for gmail and iCloud email 
accounts. Whether it will happen though is anyone's guess. I didn't 
think they'd ever make windows installation accessible and when they 
did, they did it right, I have to say. Except for Cortana, that over 
rides narrator until you turn it off, and I've asked them to disable 
the speech intro if narrator is on. Still allow Cortana functionality, 
just disable the perky speech intro in favor of narrators, since it 
announces the intro anyway.


Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook


----------
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's 
Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:41:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 
formatting for flash drives for the moment

It does give a list no, but I guess some kind of addition could be 
made. I have tweaked my system so that the drive letter is always e or 
f, but the one I need to not format is m .
Its very quick, some might say lazy. Ahem. I don't suggest I'm any 
good at this stuff, just know enough to get by... :-)
Brian

bglists@...
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----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 
formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hi

Thanks a lot for that little script, it was exactly what I was looking for.
Something to put on my desktop to to click on when I get a new flash drive.
Looking at the code, it seems to ask which stick to use, but does it 
actually give a list of sticks, or do you need to provide the drive letter?
Also, a prompt for the volume label or name would be nice, but I think 
I can edit the script to add that since the language doesn't seem too hard.
Something like /p "volume name?" or similar?

Thanks

Kendell Clark





Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook



________________________________
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's 
Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 2:56:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 
formatting for flash drives for the moment

Just in case I was thinking of this from my Windows 7 machine.
Does this work in 10?

@echo off


set /p drive= Which stick should I use?
echo Please wait...

format %drive%:/fs:fat32/v:tested
pause
exit

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io"
<bglists@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 
formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hmm, this would be important to know as the majority of audio 
players for the blind that play ram sticks will not read ntfs.
I'm sure you know most of these players only work on the order of 
files written, not on the file names as well.
It seems a little odd to remove such an option.

Luckily most players can read fat, and most generic sticks I see are 
pre formatted in that  way.
Tell me, what about the command line way of formatting?

If you don't know the syntax I can get it for you.
Brian


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----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:25 AM
Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 
formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hi all
This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after 
unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book 
player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has 
the XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The 
digital player can read neither of these file systems. I've 
submitted feedback to ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who 
knows if it will happen. This is a problem because unless the dp's 
firmware is updated, extremely unlikely, people who use windows 10 
won't be able to format new flash drives or reformat old ones 
without using another program, which I'm sure exist. They won't be 
able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the functionality.  
This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard drives have 
only the ntfs option. I'm posting hear because I'm not subscribed to 
the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it's off topic, but I 
wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide
workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.

Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook





















Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

JM Casey <crystallogic@...>
 

Nice.
Why don't you all use the good ole' "format" command though? It allows for
all filesystems and couldn't be similar. You don't even have to remember the
sswitches - the help screen describes everything.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Stephen
Sent: December 24, 2017 10:53 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment

YOu can format drives to fat32 with a 3rd party program, it's freeware.
http://www.ridgecrop.demon.co.uk/guiformat.htm
At 09:23 PM 12/24/2017, you wrote:
Hi
You're better at this than I am, I couldn't even have cobbled this
together. I can write a bash script to do it in Linux, since I know the
cintax better and I know the command line programs that format stuff,
but in windows? Not a chance. I never even considered that this was a
bug, I assumed ms deliberately removed it hoping people will migrate
over to the newer file systems. Which would be fine except that most
blindy devices only support a limited set of them, mostly windows ones,
or at least OS agnostic ones like fat and fat32. I do wish they would
add ext2/3/4, btrfs, xfs, and some other Linux file systems as native
support. It would go well with microsoft's supposed mission of
supporting the competition. It would go right in with wsl, windows
subsystem for Linux and their support for gmail and iCloud email
accounts. Whether it will happen though is anyone's guess. I didn't
think they'd ever make windows installation accessible and when they
did, they did it right, I have to say. Except for Cortana, that over
rides narrator until you turn it off, and I've asked them to disable
the speech intro if narrator is on. Still allow Cortana functionality,
just disable the perky speech intro in favor of narrators, since it
announces the intro anyway.


Thanks
Kendell Clark


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----------
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:41:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment

It does give a list no, but I guess some kind of addition could be
made. I have tweaked my system so that the drive letter is always e or
f, but the one I need to not format is m .
Its very quick, some might say lazy. Ahem. I don't suggest I'm any
good at this stuff, just know enough to get by... :-)
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hi

Thanks a lot for that little script, it was exactly what I was looking for.
Something to put on my desktop to to click on when I get a new flash drive.
Looking at the code, it seems to ask which stick to use, but does it
actually give a list of sticks, or do you need to provide the drive letter?
Also, a prompt for the volume label or name would be nice, but I think
I can edit the script to add that since the language doesn't seem too hard.
Something like /p "volume name?" or similar?

Thanks

Kendell Clark





Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook



________________________________
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 2:56:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment

Just in case I was thinking of this from my Windows 7 machine.
Does this work in 10?

@echo off


set /p drive= Which stick should I use?
echo Please wait...

format %drive%:/fs:fat32/v:tested
pause
exit

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io"
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hmm, this would be important to know as the majority of audio
players for the blind that play ram sticks will not read ntfs.
I'm sure you know most of these players only work on the order of
files written, not on the file names as well.
It seems a little odd to remove such an option.

Luckily most players can read fat, and most generic sticks I see are
pre formatted in that way.
Tell me, what about the command line way of formatting?

If you don't know the syntax I can get it for you.
Brian


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----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:25 AM
Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32
formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hi all
This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after
unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book
player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has
the XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The
digital player can read neither of these file systems. I've
submitted feedback to ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who
knows if it will happen. This is a problem because unless the dp's
firmware is updated, extremely unlikely, people who use windows 10
won't be able to format new flash drives or reformat old ones
without using another program, which I'm sure exist. They won't be
able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the functionality.
This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard drives have
only the ntfs option. I'm posting hear because I'm not subscribed to
the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it's off topic, but I
wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide
workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.

Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook