I think the better solution is each NVDA country community having some kind of support center, by phone or by mail...

At least in Portugal we serve as a kind of support center for NVDA... by phone, Skype or mail...

Regards,

Rui Fontes
Tiflotecnia, Lda.


Às 18:55 de 23/12/2017, Shaun Everiss escreveu:

Well nvda  does not use a traditional support line, the email list is support for most part.

I think there is a toll call service in australia that the devs run which you can buy, all reader groups have a trained tech support call centre, we have mike and maybe other devs doing support but its not a full support group.

Being that this is opensource and not payed for like jaws I am not sure how we can fix this shortfall.

Technically I guess we can have groups on skype and or whats app for nvda support but you really need someone to pick up that phone and dial support.

Here is the thing, a number of  devs and a few are payed but most of us are not.

Having used jaws, and dolphin products while I have needed support for most of my comercial product use its never been that much and email has been most of it but if I need a responce the phone is always the best especially if the computer does not work right.




On 24/12/2017 4:43 a.m., susan@cantos.us wrote:

I am a teacher of students with visual impairments. One of my students is learning to use a screen reader and I decided to adopt NVDA. Tireless hours training have been spent training myself through videos, websites, youtubes, etc. I started training my student and implementing it with his school work. We have found what works one day does not always work the next day. What has been frustrating is how difficult it is to get tech support for NVDA on the spot as we sometimes need in the educational setting. We have very limited hours in a school day to complete our training and work with students with visual impairments. Their curriculum extends beyond the core curriculum as we all know and efficiency with support is critical. I am starting to use JAWS with my student and it has been seemless and working well. I really want to adopt NVDA but it has been very frustrating. We teach our students to brainstorm and contact tech support when needed but NVDA does not make it easy for our students to do this. Our students are the future of NVDA as future screen readers. Thoughts?

.

---
Questa email è stata esaminata alla ricerca di virus da AVG.
http://www.avg.com

Well nvda  does not use a traditional support line, the email list is support for most part.
I think there is a toll call service in australia that the devs run which you can buy, all reader groups have a trained tech support call centre, we have mike and maybe other devs doing support but its not a full support group.
Being that this is opensource and not payed for like jaws I am not sure how we can fix this shortfall.
Technically I guess we can have groups on skype and or whats app for nvda support but you really need someone to pick up that phone and dial support.
Here is the thing, a number of  devs and a few are payed but most of us are not.
Having used jaws, and dolphin products while I have needed support for most of my comercial product use its never been that much and email has been most of it but if I need a responce the phone is always the best especially if the computer does not work right.
On 24/12/2017 4:43 a.m., susan@cantos.us wrote:

I am a teacher of students with visual impairments. One of my students is learning to use a screen reader and I decided to adopt NVDA. Tireless hours training have been spent training myself through videos, websites, youtubes, etc. I started training my student and implementing it with his school work. We have found what works one day does not always work the next day. What has been frustrating is how difficult it is to get tech support for NVDA on the spot as we sometimes need in the educational setting. We have very limited hours in a school day to complete our training and work with students with visual impairments. Their curriculum extends beyond the core curriculum as we all know and efficiency with support is critical. I am starting to use JAWS with my student and it has been seemless and working well. I really want to adopt NVDA but it has been very frustrating. We teach our students to brainstorm and contact tech support when needed but NVDA does not make it easy for our students to do this. Our students are the future of NVDA as future screen readers. Thoughts?

.

Vfo is now still more present because tey worked together with mainstream developers like SAP. But NV Access will do it as well. I am sure. It is more than adviceable to do it. The cooperation between mainstream developers and screen reader developers is the future. NV Access is the best accessibility consultant because there is lot of user feedback given.

Best
Adriani
h

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 22.12.2017 um 23:47 schrieb David Moore <jesusloves1966@gmail.com>:

Hi all!
I have been using NVDA 80 percent of the time since 2015.
I can access a lot more controls on web pages, access TV Streaming web sites, use YouTube like a breeze, and a lot more.
NVDA can access the Win10 universal apps much better than the shark LOL!
I only use the Shark a few times a month to do some very specific tasks.
I want to emphasize that I cannot access a lot with the shark that I can access with NVDA. I have talked to many people about NVDA, and I have helped a few people use NVDA part of the time.
It is so hard to get people to install the add ons. So many are so stubborn and say they want to use a screen reader that has everything built in, instead of having to hunt all over the place for add ons.
I give them the web sites to find all of them, but they just go back to using the Shark, which really cannot access Edge at all yet, NVDA does much better in Google apps, like Google Docs, sheets, and forms.
NVDA works great in Edge. I can do what I need to do with Edge using NVDA. NVDA is so simple to install, it does not leave footprints all over your computer, it installs in a minute or so. The shark takes 15 minutes for me, NVDA is more stable than the later versions of the Shark, Audio ducking does not work in the Shark, NVDA keeps up much better with changes in Windows, I use many Win10 apps with NVDA, and on and on.
The word is getting out, though, because everyone I talk to who uses the Shark, says that they have heard of NVDA and know someone who uses it.
We really need to get NVDA to employers, so they can see just how great it is for work as well as at home.
NVDA really can enable someone to do their job in the work place. It is easier, because NVDA would install on their computer systems, I would think, better than the Shark. Somehow, we need to let state rehabilitation agencies, employers, the government, know just how great NVDA is.
VFO constantly goes around the country and shows off the Shark to employers, state agencies, and many professional organizations.
Somehow, we need to find out how we can have many NVDA conventions around the world where NVDA is being demonstrated to high up people and all kinds of professionals.
That is where VFO has the upper hand.
We need to get the word out about just how NVDA really could enable people to do their professional job, and not just use it at home.
Merry Christmas all, and have a special time with family and friends.
Go NVDA!
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 4:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed
I dropped the shark in 2010 April. I have not looked back since. I've tried to convince my co workers at my job to use nvda but they say that the shark is better because nvda was not meant fo the work place. Um? Huh? No? I use nvda at my work to do stuff all the time. True it's an at home thing, but still.
Take care all and have a happy Friday


On Dec 22, 2017, at 12:26 PM, Gerardo Corripio <gera1027@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes I've used NVDA as my main screen reader since January2015, and it's coming along! I really like the fact that apart from having to buy Vocalizer, Eloquence o or other voices specifically made for it (it's definitely a lot more cheaper than the other screen reader, with each symthesizer costing an average USD$100 versus the nearly USD$800 and upwards of the others); NVDA updates when it has to without having to worry of the SMA, via AddOns, we CAN adapt NVDA to our usage/liking/personality.. So NVDA keep up the great work! and let's continue helping spreading the word out!


El 22/12/2017 a las 12:40 p.m., Angela Delicata escribió:

+1000! I wish I know it before: I am really happy with nvda; it is a wonderful screen reader.

If we think all they ask is a donation and they give us such a wonderful product... Isn't it fantastic?

Happy vacation to all.

best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/12/2017 19:12, Sky Mundell ha scritto:

I totally agree with you. Lets all promote the use of this terrific product!


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 9:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] I'm dissappointed


Hi all. FYI the Webame survey 7 results out out. It’s a mixed bag. I’m dissappoited in NVDA useage. Its at 31.9 percent and that other screen reader I won’t talk about anymore is at 46 percent. All I’ll say is this. Spread the word about NVDA. I know a lot of you have adopted the use of it over the past year now that WINEyes is dead. Also if you can send NV Access a donation.


Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>; for Windows 10






---
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http://www.avg.com





--
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird

Am 23.12.2017 um 01:50 schrieb Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com>:

The issue is in house programs some stuff needs other readers.

Then again, nvda is itself a scripted reader written in a scripted language.

So even if you made an inhouse script you would need a python programmer and that would be it.

On 23/12/2017 12:46 p.m., David Moore wrote:
Hi Gene!
How do we educate the state rehabilitation agencies that NVDA is an option. Before my on line tutoring business, I was looking for a job. I asked my case worker about using NVDA at work. My case worker said that employers would not allow NVDA, and that they had hardly heard of NVDA, and that is not up to employment standards.
If my case worker thought that, I would assume that many agencies think that about NVDA.
Don’t we need to do presentations for the states like VFO does?
Simply, how do we get the word out there in the professional world that NVDA is a good option?
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 6:06 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

This discussion is really removed from reality. Do a demonstration of what? If an employer needs an employee to use a specific data base or other program that NVDA doesn't support, the demonstration will be worthless. If the job just involves using standard Microsoft programs, a demonstration might accomplish something but many employers have specific programs they will allow and they won't allow others. If you can find out in advance what programs are being used and that NVDA supports all those programs and if the employer will allow you to demonstrate, fine, but this discussion, as I said, is so removed from reality that it amounts to just emotional boosterism and that, if applied injudiciously will harm the reputation of NVDA, not help it.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: David Moore
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 4:49 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

You like wise, Rosemarie!
David Moore
Somehow, we have to go to employers and do a demonstration of NVDA right there. I don’t know if they would let any person do that, or do they have to be from an organization.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 5:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

Hi, David,

I see where you're coming from. I think if more employers would give NVDA a chance, they could save a lot of money that they could be using to update things like Microsoft office. If I had a job, I'd insist on using NVDA.

Merry Christmas to you and Traci.

Rosemarie

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 1:47 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

Hi all!
I have been using NVDA 80 percent of the time since 2015.
I can access a lot more controls on web pages, access TV Streaming web sites, use YouTube like a breeze, and a lot more.
NVDA can access the Win10 universal apps much better than the shark LOL!
I only use the Shark a few times a month to do some very specific tasks.
I want to emphasize that I cannot access a lot with the shark that I can access with NVDA. I have talked to many people about NVDA, and I have helped a few people use NVDA part of the time.
It is so hard to get people to install the add ons. So many are so stubborn and say they want to use a screen reader that has everything built in, instead of having to hunt all over the place for add ons.
I give them the web sites to find all of them, but they just go back to using the Shark, which really cannot access Edge at all yet, NVDA does much better in Google apps, like Google Docs, sheets, and forms.
NVDA works great in Edge. I can do what I need to do with Edge using NVDA. NVDA is so simple to install, it does not leave footprints all over your computer, it installs in a minute or so. The shark takes 15 minutes for me, NVDA is more stable than the later versions of the Shark, Audio ducking does not work in the Shark, NVDA keeps up much better with changes in Windows, I use many Win10 apps with NVDA, and on and on.
The word is getting out, though, because everyone I talk to who uses the Shark, says that they have heard of NVDA and know someone who uses it.
We really need to get NVDA to employers, so they can see just how great it is for work as well as at home.
NVDA really can enable someone to do their job in the work place. It is easier, because NVDA would install on their computer systems, I would think, better than the Shark. Somehow, we need to let state rehabilitation agencies, employers, the government, know just how great NVDA is.
VFO constantly goes around the country and shows off the Shark to employers, state agencies, and many professional organizations.
Somehow, we need to find out how we can have many NVDA conventions around the world where NVDA is being demonstrated to high up people and all kinds of professionals.
That is where VFO has the upper hand.
We need to get the word out about just how NVDA really could enable people to do their professional job, and not just use it at home.
Merry Christmas all, and have a special time with family and friends.
Go NVDA!
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 4:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

I dropped the shark in 2010 April. I have not looked back since. I've tried to convince my co workers at my job to use nvda but they say that the shark is better because nvda was not meant fo the work place. Um? Huh? No? I use nvda at my work to do stuff all the time. True it's an at home thing, but still.

Take care all and have a happy Friday

On Dec 22, 2017, at 12:26 PM, Gerardo Corripio <gera1027@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes I've used NVDA as my main screen reader since January2015, and it's coming along! I really like the fact that apart from having to buy Vocalizer, Eloquence o or other voices specifically made for it (it's definitely a lot more cheaper than the other screen reader, with each symthesizer costing an average USD$100 versus the nearly USD$800 and upwards of the others); NVDA updates when it has to without having to worry of the SMA, via AddOns, we CAN adapt NVDA to our usage/liking/personality.. So NVDA keep up the great work! and let's continue helping spreading the word out!


El 22/12/2017 a las 12:40 p.m., Angela Delicata escribió:
+1000! I wish I know it before: I am really happy with nvda; it is a wonderful screen reader.

If we think all they ask is a donation and they give us such a wonderful product... Isn't it fantastic?

Happy vacation to all.

best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/12/2017 19:12, Sky Mundell ha scritto:
I totally agree with you. Lets all promote the use of this terrific product!


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 9:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] I'm dissappointed


Hi all. FYI the Webame survey 7 results out out. It’s a mixed bag. I’m dissappoited in NVDA useage. Its at 31.9 percent and that other screen reader I won’t talk about anymore is at 46 percent. All I’ll say is this. Spread the word about NVDA. I know a lot of you have adopted the use of it over the past year now that WINEyes is dead. Also if you can send NV Access a donation.


Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>; for Windows 10






---
Questa email è stata esaminata alla ricerca di virus da AVG.
http://www.avg.com


--
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird

Hi Gene!

How do we educate the state rehabilitation agencies that NVDA is an option. Before my on line tutoring business, I was looking for a job. I asked my case worker about using NVDA at work. My case worker said that employers would not allow NVDA, and that they had hardly heard of NVDA, and that is not up to employment standards.

If my case worker thought that, I would assume that many agencies think that about NVDA.

Don’t we need to do presentations for the states like VFO does?

Simply, how do we get the word out there in the professional world that NVDA is a good option?

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 6:06 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

 

This discussion is really removed from reality.  Do a demonstration of what?  If an employer needs an employee to use a specific data base or other program that NVDA doesn't support, the demonstration will be worthless.  If the job just involves using standard Microsoft programs, a demonstration might accomplish something but many employers have specific programs they will allow and they won't allow others.  If you can find out in advance what programs are being used and that NVDA supports all those programs and if the employer will allow you to demonstrate, fine, but this discussion, as I said, is so removed from reality that it amounts to just emotional boosterism and that, if applied injudiciously will harm the reputation of NVDA, not help it. 

 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: David Moore

Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 4:49 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

 

You like wise, Rosemarie!

David Moore

Somehow, we have to go to employers and do a demonstration of NVDA right there. I don’t know if they would let any person do that, or do they have to be from an organization.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 5:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

 

Hi, David,

 

I see where you're coming from. I think if more employers would give NVDA a chance, they could save a lot of money that they could be using to update things like Microsoft office. If I had a job, I'd insist on using NVDA.

 

Merry Christmas to you and Traci.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 1:47 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

 

Hi all!

I have been using NVDA 80 percent of the time since 2015.

I can access a lot more controls on web pages, access TV Streaming web sites, use YouTube like a breeze, and a lot more.

NVDA can access the Win10 universal apps much better than the shark LOL!

I only use the Shark a few times a month to do some very specific tasks.

I want to emphasize that I cannot access a lot with the shark that I can access with NVDA. I have talked to many people about NVDA, and I have helped a few people use NVDA part of the time.

It is so hard to get people to install the add ons. So many are so stubborn and say they want to use a screen reader that has everything built in, instead of having to hunt all over the place for add ons.

I give them the web sites to find all of them, but they just go back to using the Shark, which really cannot access Edge at all yet, NVDA does much better in Google apps, like Google Docs, sheets, and forms.

NVDA works great in Edge. I can do what I need to do with Edge using NVDA. NVDA is so simple to install, it does not leave footprints all over your computer, it installs in a minute or so. The shark takes 15 minutes for me, NVDA is more stable than the later versions of the Shark, Audio ducking does not work in the Shark, NVDA keeps up much better with changes in Windows, I use many Win10 apps with NVDA, and on and on.

The word is getting out, though, because everyone I talk to who uses the Shark, says that they have heard of NVDA and know someone who uses it.

We really need to get NVDA to employers, so they can see just how great it is for work as well as at home.

NVDA really can enable someone to do their job in the work place. It is easier, because NVDA would install on their computer systems, I would think, better than the Shark. Somehow, we need to let state rehabilitation agencies, employers, the government, know just how great NVDA is.

VFO constantly goes around the country and shows off the Shark to employers, state agencies, and many professional organizations.

Somehow, we need to find out how we can have many NVDA conventions around the world where NVDA is being demonstrated to high up people and all kinds of professionals.

That is where VFO has the upper hand.

We need to get the word out about just how NVDA really could enable people to do their professional job, and not just use it at home.

Merry Christmas all, and have a special time with family and friends.

Go NVDA!

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 4:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

 

I dropped the shark in 2010 April. I have not looked back since. I've tried to convince my co workers  at my job to use nvda but they say that the shark is better because nvda was not meant fo the work place. Um? Huh? No? I use nvda at my work to do stuff all the time. True it's an at home thing, but still.

 

Take care all and have a happy Friday

 

On Dec 22, 2017, at 12:26 PM, Gerardo Corripio <gera1027@...> wrote:

 

Yes I've used NVDA as my main screen reader since January2015, and it's coming along! I really like the fact that apart from having to buy Vocalizer, Eloquence o or other voices specifically made for it (it's definitely a lot more cheaper than the other screen reader, with each symthesizer costing an average USD$100 versus the nearly USD$800 and upwards of the others); NVDA updates when it has to without having to worry of the SMA, via AddOns, we CAN adapt NVDA to our usage/liking/personality.. So NVDA keep up the great work! and let's continue helping spreading the word out!


El 22/12/2017 a las 12:40 p.m., Angela Delicata escribió:

+1000! I wish I know it before: I am really happy with nvda; it is a wonderful screen reader.

If we think all they ask is a donation and they give us such a wonderful product... Isn't it fantastic?

Happy vacation to all.

best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/12/2017 19:12, Sky Mundell ha scritto:

I totally agree with you. Lets all promote the use of this terrific product!


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 9:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] I'm dissappointed


Hi all. FYI the Webame survey 7 results out out. It’s a mixed bag. I’m dissappoited in NVDA useage. Its at 31.9 percent and that other screen reader I won’t talk about anymore is at 46 percent. All I’ll say is this. Spread the word about NVDA. I know a lot of you have adopted the use of it over the past year now that WINEyes is dead. Also if you can send NV Access a donation.


Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10






---
Questa email è stata esaminata alla ricerca di virus da AVG.
http://www.avg.com

 

-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird

 

 

 

 

I am a teacher of students with visual impairments. One of my students is learning to use a screen reader and I decided to adopt NVDA. Tireless hours training have been spent training myself through videos, websites, youtubes, etc. I started training my student and implementing it with his school work. We have found what works one day does not always work the next day. What has been frustrating is how difficult it is to get tech support for NVDA on the spot as we sometimes need in the educational setting. We have very limited hours in a school day to complete our training and work with students with visual impairments. Their curriculum extends beyond the core curriculum as we all know and efficiency with support is critical. I am starting to use JAWS with my student and it has been seemless and working well. I really want to adopt NVDA but it has been very frustrating. We teach our students to brainstorm and contact tech support when needed but NVDA does not make it easy for our students to do this. Our students are the future of NVDA as future screen readers. Thoughts?

Dear NVDA community,

 

As I read messages on recent discussions, I realized just how much enthusiasm and concern people have over NVDA and its future. At the same time, it became clear to me that I and other developers and community elders need a day off and just listen to you all, as listening allows us to think about what others are saying and plan things accordingly.

 

But first, a humble opinion about surveys and other points:

 

First, when calls for the seventh Web AIM survey went out, I told people to not just do it to “increase” market share. I specifically told screen reader companies to not coerce users to do it, but let people take it out of their own willingness. This advice was to avoid a fiasco that happened with Web AIM 6 where AI Squared (now part of VFO) staff told Window-Eyes users to fill out the survey in mass numbers, which became a small controversy within the screen reading world, and to me, making Web AIM results no longer credible.

 

As some folks pointed out, Web AIM numbers depend on how many people fill it out and where they come from (and this is true of any surveys where word of mouth drives participation). The results also depend on demographics and other factors such as choices given, how the questions are worded, and overall objective. If one or more data points seems to be dominant, they can be either skewed or outliers, with the more extreme cases being termed “outliers” and they affect how the results are explicated (interpreted). Even skewed data, such as what I can perceive from some surveys including recent Web AIM iterations can affect statistical calculations to a point where it raises genuine questions about bias, credibility, and others (after all, success of statistics, particularly inferential statistics, depends on a representative sample or a close equivalent that allows researchers to approximate the real world, which is prone to errors if not done correctly such as misinterpretation, bad outliers, only some groups participating, not looking at things more deeply and what not).

 

One important thing to note is that Web AIM is a representative survey, thus the result in front of me could reflect reality. However, due to recent controversy, possible type I and II errors (false-positive and false-negative, respectively) and because of outliers and skewed data and participation, it does not truly reflect actual data, which is a point some folks here are trying to say and I concur with. My explication of Web AIM 7 is that, in some parts of the world, JAWS for Windows is more popular. However, given the fact that not all geographical regions are represented, I’d counter by saying that this is not a true representative sample that includes every continent, and if it did, the story would be different and will reflect reality a bit better (not a lot because there are other ways of skewing data such as filling it out on behalf of an organization, robotic fillers and so on). Coupled with the fact that Web AIM went through a major controversy recently that damaged its credibility somewhat, I would dare not trust Web AIM results again.

 

This leads to my second point: quantity versus quality. If NV Access went straight for quantity alone, they could have implemented all possible feature requests in hopes of boosting market share. The reality in front of us says otherwise: not all feature requests are here. Numerous factors contribute to this problem:

 

• Lack of leading developers: in 2017, a long-time NVDA developer started working for another organization, and NV Access has been looking for his replacement ever since. Even if the replacement is found, it’ll take several months for him or her to become used to this community, learn about accessibility and how to interact with members, and earn our trust (it took Reef Turner a year to fully earn our trust). Folks can counter this by saying that there are countless contributors out there, but ultimately what gets into NVDA depends on pull requests and review time from NV Access.
• Attitudes about open-source software from organizations: as some folks pointed out, there are prevailing attitudes about open-source in organizations that makes it a bit harder for NVDA to land on their computers, which allows developers to assess true needs of organizations through user feedback. Without valuable feedback from organizations (a quality one at that), we won’t see huger progress in NVDA development.
• Outside attitudes about the NVDA community: from the inside, NVDA community is seen as a tight nit of enthusiasts who strives to make NVDA better every day. On the outside, however, we have a mixed bag of reputations, from admiration to honorable mentions to disdain. Every organization have these mixed reputations, especially more so for a community powered by technology such as Linux kernel developers, web browser vendors and web standards organizations, and even screen reader community. Not only we need to show that we are united inside, we need to showcase unity outside of this community.
• Inside matters just as outside: public relations outside of NVDA community is important, but unity within an organization is just as important as public organizational face (I’ll address developer’s point of view below). What makes NVDA stand out is our unity despite coming from different circumstances and backgrounds.

 

Most of these point to quality, not quantity alone. In summary, quantity is important, but quality is just as important as how many people download NVDA 2017.4 between Christmas and New Year.

 

Lastly, in regards to organization internals, I’d like to address something I really wanted to say for the past few weeks: sometimes, I felt burnt out. My initial response to your enthusiasm over my audio tutorials was that I’ll ask for justifications for producing an updated version, seeing that there are countless free videos and tutorials out there. This was partly because I truly felt burnt out with academics, speech and debate competitions and what not (especially after a debate regarding a potential feature held not long ago), at one point telling myself that I’ll retire from the NVDA community sooner than later and feeling as though I carried important burdens on my shoulders. But you didn’t see that justification post; instead, I posted links to where you can download the 2018 version of my audio tutorial series. In effect, I’ve given up my Christmas holidays for this community, knowing that I needed a time to listen to you all and do something about it. All this was possible because of a simple act of listening and thinking about what the community means to me and what my work means to everyone. I’m committed to finishing Welcome to NVDA 2018 series before NVDA 2018.1 ships, with several addenda coming after that, all because of support from this community and outsiders. And I promise again: The Welcome to NVDA 2018 series was, and will remain, free for all. All I ask of you in return is donate to a cause that makes equal access to technology possible, especially during this holiday season and beyond.

 

I’m sure for many of you, my musings above are a bit hard to digest. Now you know why I don’t trust Web AIM survey results, quality is just as important as quantity, and read a confession from a community leader on his inner feelings. But there are two more things you need to know, something all of us needs to think about:

 

Community leaders won’t stay with you forever. In early 2017, I sensed that a long-time NVDA developer would leave this community for something better. Only I and others didn’t know until summer that it would be Jamie moving onto Mozilla Foundation.

 

I also felt, back in early 2017, that my active time with the NVDA community is slowly drawing to a close. I don’t know when it’ll happen, but I’ve been laying foundations for the next generation of developers and enthusiasts to take the lead. This is one of the reasons for setting up the devlearning subgroup, because I felt it is time for me and other leaders to teach NVDA internals and other concepts to the next group of community leaders and developers so they can bring NVDA to the next level and do more amazing things than I and others did (in my case, for the past five years).

 

Lastly, I sense a time when this community will face a sharp divide to a point where people will start questioning the merits of this community. I only told a select few earlier because it wasn’t right for me to disclose it early and for them to prepare a plan. The screen shade debate is, in fact, a sort of a preview of what is to come. One of the fundamental questions you will face at that time will be whether you still have your first love for NVDA, and whether you still have your original reasons for joining this community. The survival of this community at that time will depend on your ability to unite to face a difficult situation, even if that means facing possible splits. One thing you should NOT do at that time: ignoring new users and outside critics, because they are influential opinion leaders and are key stakeholders in NVDA’s future. One thing you SHOULD do though: listen to others and think critically.

 

Hope this makes sense.

Merry (early) Christmas,

Joseph

Dear NVDA community,

 

As I read messages on recent discussions, I realized just how much enthusiasm and concern people have over NVDA and its future. At the same time, it became clear to me that I and other developers and community elders need a day off and just listen to you all, as listening allows us to think about what others are saying and plan things accordingly.

 

But first, a humble opinion about surveys and other points:

 

First, when calls for the seventh Web AIM survey went out, I told people to not just do it to “increase” market share. I specifically told screen reader companies to not coerce users to do it, but let people take it out of their own willingness. This advice was to avoid a fiasco that happened with Web AIM 6 where AI Squared (now part of VFO) staff told Window-Eyes users to fill out the survey in mass numbers, which became a small controversy within the screen reading world, and to me, making Web AIM results no longer credible.

 

As some folks pointed out, Web AIM numbers depend on how many people fill it out and where they come from (and this is true of any surveys where word of mouth drives participation). The results also depend on demographics and other factors such as choices given, how the questions are worded, and overall objective. If one or more data points seems to be dominant, they can be either skewed or outliers, with the more extreme cases being termed “outliers” and they affect how the results are explicated (interpreted). Even skewed data, such as what I can perceive from some surveys including recent Web AIM iterations can affect statistical calculations to a point where it raises genuine questions about bias, credibility, and others (after all, success of statistics, particularly inferential statistics, depends on a representative sample or a close equivalent that allows researchers to approximate the real world, which is prone to errors if not done correctly such as misinterpretation, bad outliers, only some groups participating, not looking at things more deeply and what not).

 

One important thing to note is that Web AIM is a representative survey, thus the result in front of me could reflect reality. However, due to recent controversy, possible type I and II errors (false-positive and false-negative, respectively) and because of outliers and skewed data and participation, it does not truly reflect actual data, which is a point some folks here are trying to say and I concur with. My explication of Web AIM 7 is that, in some parts of the world, JAWS for Windows is more popular. However, given the fact that not all geographical regions are represented, I’d counter by saying that this is not a true representative sample that includes every continent, and if it did, the story would be different and will reflect reality a bit better (not a lot because there are other ways of skewing data such as filling it out on behalf of an organization, robotic fillers and so on). Coupled with the fact that Web AIM went through a major controversy recently that damaged its credibility somewhat, I would dare not trust Web AIM results again.

 

This leads to my second point: quantity versus quality. If NV Access went straight for quantity alone, they could have implemented all possible feature requests in hopes of boosting market share. The reality in front of us says otherwise: not all feature requests are here. Numerous factors contribute to this problem:

 

• Lack of leading developers: in 2017, a long-time NVDA developer started working for another organization, and NV Access has been looking for his replacement ever since. Even if the replacement is found, it’ll take several months for him or her to become used to this community, learn about accessibility and how to interact with members, and earn our trust (it took Reef Turner a year to fully earn our trust). Folks can counter this by saying that there are countless contributors out there, but ultimately what gets into NVDA depends on pull requests and review time from NV Access.
• Attitudes about open-source software from organizations: as some folks pointed out, there are prevailing attitudes about open-source in organizations that makes it a bit harder for NVDA to land on their computers, which allows developers to assess true needs of organizations through user feedback. Without valuable feedback from organizations (a quality one at that), we won’t see huger progress in NVDA development.
• Outside attitudes about the NVDA community: from the inside, NVDA community is seen as a tight nit of enthusiasts who strives to make NVDA better every day. On the outside, however, we have a mixed bag of reputations, from admiration to honorable mentions to disdain. Every organization have these mixed reputations, especially more so for a community powered by technology such as Linux kernel developers, web browser vendors and web standards organizations, and even screen reader community. Not only we need to show that we are united inside, we need to showcase unity outside of this community.
• Inside matters just as outside: public relations outside of NVDA community is important, but unity within an organization is just as important as public organizational face (I’ll address developer’s point of view below). What makes NVDA stand out is our unity despite coming from different circumstances and backgrounds.

 

Most of these point to quality, not quantity alone. In summary, quantity is important, but quality is just as important as how many people download NVDA 2017.4 between Christmas and New Year.

 

Lastly, in regards to organization internals, I’d like to address something I really wanted to say for the past few weeks: sometimes, I felt burnt out. My initial response to your enthusiasm over my audio tutorials was that I’ll ask for justifications for producing an updated version, seeing that there are countless free videos and tutorials out there. This was partly because I truly felt burnt out with academics, speech and debate competitions and what not (especially after a debate regarding a potential feature held not long ago), at one point telling myself that I’ll retire from the NVDA community sooner than later and feeling as though I carried important burdens on my shoulders. But you didn’t see that justification post; instead, I posted links to where you can download the 2018 version of my audio tutorial series. In effect, I’ve given up my Christmas holidays for this community, knowing that I needed a time to listen to you all and do something about it. All this was possible because of a simple act of listening and thinking about what the community means to me and what my work means to everyone. I’m committed to finishing Welcome to NVDA 2018 series before NVDA 2018.1 ships, with several addenda coming after that, all because of support from this community and outsiders. And I promise again: The Welcome to NVDA 2018 series was, and will remain, free for all. All I ask of you in return is donate to a cause that makes equal access to technology possible, especially during this holiday season and beyond.

 

I’m sure for many of you, my musings above are a bit hard to digest. Now you know why I don’t trust Web AIM survey results, quality is just as important as quantity, and read a confession from a community leader on his inner feelings. But there are two more things you need to know, something all of us needs to think about:

 

Community leaders won’t stay with you forever. In early 2017, I sensed that a long-time NVDA developer would leave this community for something better. Only I and others didn’t know until summer that it would be Jamie moving onto Mozilla Foundation.

 

I also felt, back in early 2017, that my active time with the NVDA community is slowly drawing to a close. I don’t know when it’ll happen, but I’ve been laying foundations for the next generation of developers and enthusiasts to take the lead. This is one of the reasons for setting up the devlearning subgroup, because I felt it is time for me and other leaders to teach NVDA internals and other concepts to the next group of community leaders and developers so they can bring NVDA to the next level and do more amazing things than I and others did (in my case, for the past five years).

 

Lastly, I sense a time when this community will face a sharp divide to a point where people will start questioning the merits of this community. I only told a select few earlier because it wasn’t right for me to disclose it early and for them to prepare a plan. The screen shade debate is, in fact, a sort of a preview of what is to come. One of the fundamental questions you will face at that time will be whether you still have your first love for NVDA, and whether you still have your original reasons for joining this community. The survival of this community at that time will depend on your ability to unite to face a difficult situation, even if that means facing possible splits. One thing you should NOT do at that time: ignoring new users and outside critics, because they are influential opinion leaders and are key stakeholders in NVDA’s future. One thing you SHOULD do though: listen to others and think critically.

 

Hope this makes sense.

Merry (early) Christmas,

Joseph

If you oversell something, you will make it harder to convince people of its benefits in the future.  NVDA is not as capable in the workplace as JAWS.  I don't follow JAWS or NVDA in terms of workplace applications but that is my strong impression and I would say that, being unable to label graphics, being unable to create what JAWS calls frames, and not having a setting, such as JAWS has, for echo all, which I used to use constantly in the old days when I had a shell account and used Pine for e-mail, are significant drawbacks in terms of some of the kinds of access I would expect to be important in various work place settings. 

 

Before people start to make all sorts of claims, probably considerably inflated, about NVDA, the facts must be clearly known and discussed here.  If I'm wrong, that's fine, but I haven't seen anything indicating I am and a year or two ago, even one of the founders of NVDA said in a discussion, that NVDA isn't nearly as capable in the work place.  I'm not quoting him but that is what I recall the essence of his quote to be.

 

Also, regarding my argument about add ons, thanks for significantly bolstering my argument that certain important add ons should be distributed with NVDA and already on.  A lot of users are never going to know about add ons, and as demonstrated in the below message, many who do will have, and insist on retaining, completely incorrect views about them.  But completely incorrect or not, you have to take them into account when deciding whether I am right, that certain add ons should be distributed with NVDA. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: David Moore

Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 3:47 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

Hi all!

I have been using NVDA 80 percent of the time since 2015.

I can access a lot more controls on web pages, access TV Streaming web sites, use YouTube like a breeze, and a lot more.

NVDA can access the Win10 universal apps much better than the shark LOL!

I only use the Shark a few times a month to do some very specific tasks.

I want to emphasize that I cannot access a lot with the shark that I can access with NVDA. I have talked to many people about NVDA, and I have helped a few people use NVDA part of the time.

It is so hard to get people to install the add ons. So many are so stubborn and say they want to use a screen reader that has everything built in, instead of having to hunt all over the place for add ons.

I give them the web sites to find all of them, but they just go back to using the Shark, which really cannot access Edge at all yet, NVDA does much better in Google apps, like Google Docs, sheets, and forms.

NVDA works great in Edge. I can do what I need to do with Edge using NVDA. NVDA is so simple to install, it does not leave footprints all over your computer, it installs in a minute or so. The shark takes 15 minutes for me, NVDA is more stable than the later versions of the Shark, Audio ducking does not work in the Shark, NVDA keeps up much better with changes in Windows, I use many Win10 apps with NVDA, and on and on.

The word is getting out, though, because everyone I talk to who uses the Shark, says that they have heard of NVDA and know someone who uses it.

We really need to get NVDA to employers, so they can see just how great it is for work as well as at home.

NVDA really can enable someone to do their job in the work place. It is easier, because NVDA would install on their computer systems, I would think, better than the Shark. Somehow, we need to let state rehabilitation agencies, employers, the government, know just how great NVDA is.

VFO constantly goes around the country and shows off the Shark to employers, state agencies, and many professional organizations.

Somehow, we need to find out how we can have many NVDA conventions around the world where NVDA is being demonstrated to high up people and all kinds of professionals.

That is where VFO has the upper hand.

We need to get the word out about just how NVDA really could enable people to do their professional job, and not just use it at home.

Merry Christmas all, and have a special time with family and friends.

Go NVDA!

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 4:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

 

I dropped the shark in 2010 April. I have not looked back since. I've tried to convince my co workers  at my job to use nvda but they say that the shark is better because nvda was not meant fo the work place. Um? Huh? No? I use nvda at my work to do stuff all the time. True it's an at home thing, but still.

 

Take care all and have a happy Friday

On Dec 22, 2017, at 12:26 PM, Gerardo Corripio <gera1027@...> wrote:

 

Yes I've used NVDA as my main screen reader since January2015, and it's coming along! I really like the fact that apart from having to buy Vocalizer, Eloquence o or other voices specifically made for it (it's definitely a lot more cheaper than the other screen reader, with each symthesizer costing an average USD$100 versus the nearly USD$800 and upwards of the others); NVDA updates when it has to without having to worry of the SMA, via AddOns, we CAN adapt NVDA to our usage/liking/personality.. So NVDA keep up the great work! and let's continue helping spreading the word out!


El 22/12/2017 a las 12:40 p.m., Angela Delicata escribió:

+1000! I wish I know it before: I am really happy with nvda; it is a wonderful screen reader.

If we think all they ask is a donation and they give us such a wonderful product... Isn't it fantastic?

Happy vacation to all.

best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/12/2017 19:12, Sky Mundell ha scritto:

I totally agree with you. Lets all promote the use of this terrific product!


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 9:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] I'm dissappointed


Hi all. FYI the Webame survey 7 results out out. It’s a mixed bag. I’m dissappoited in NVDA useage. Its at 31.9 percent and that other screen reader I won’t talk about anymore is at 46 percent. All I’ll say is this. Spread the word about NVDA. I know a lot of you have adopted the use of it over the past year now that WINEyes is dead. Also if you can send NV Access a donation.


Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10






---
Questa email è stata esaminata alla ricerca di virus da AVG.
http://www.avg.com

-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird

 

 

I am a teacher of students with visual impairments. One of my students is learning to use a screen reader and I decided to adopt NVDA. Tireless hours training have been spent training myself through videos, websites, youtubes, etc. I started training my student and implementing it with his school work. We have found what works one day does not always work the next day. What has been frustrating is how difficult it is to get tech support for NVDA on the spot as we sometimes need in the educational setting. We have very limited hours in a school day to complete our training and work with students with visual impairments. Their curriculum extends beyond the core curriculum as we all know and efficiency with support is critical. I am starting to use JAWS with my student and it has been seemless and working well. I really want to adopt NVDA but it has been very frustrating. We teach our students to brainstorm and contact tech support when needed but NVDA does not make it easy for our students to do this. Our students are the future of NVDA as future screen readers. Thoughts?

Hi all!

I have been using NVDA 80 percent of the time since 2015.

I can access a lot more controls on web pages, access TV Streaming web sites, use YouTube like a breeze, and a lot more.

NVDA can access the Win10 universal apps much better than the shark LOL!

I only use the Shark a few times a month to do some very specific tasks.

I want to emphasize that I cannot access a lot with the shark that I can access with NVDA. I have talked to many people about NVDA, and I have helped a few people use NVDA part of the time.

It is so hard to get people to install the add ons. So many are so stubborn and say they want to use a screen reader that has everything built in, instead of having to hunt all over the place for add ons.

I give them the web sites to find all of them, but they just go back to using the Shark, which really cannot access Edge at all yet, NVDA does much better in Google apps, like Google Docs, sheets, and forms.

NVDA works great in Edge. I can do what I need to do with Edge using NVDA. NVDA is so simple to install, it does not leave footprints all over your computer, it installs in a minute or so. The shark takes 15 minutes for me, NVDA is more stable than the later versions of the Shark, Audio ducking does not work in the Shark, NVDA keeps up much better with changes in Windows, I use many Win10 apps with NVDA, and on and on.

The word is getting out, though, because everyone I talk to who uses the Shark, says that they have heard of NVDA and know someone who uses it.

We really need to get NVDA to employers, so they can see just how great it is for work as well as at home.

NVDA really can enable someone to do their job in the work place. It is easier, because NVDA would install on their computer systems, I would think, better than the Shark. Somehow, we need to let state rehabilitation agencies, employers, the government, know just how great NVDA is.

VFO constantly goes around the country and shows off the Shark to employers, state agencies, and many professional organizations.

Somehow, we need to find out how we can have many NVDA conventions around the world where NVDA is being demonstrated to high up people and all kinds of professionals.

That is where VFO has the upper hand.

We need to get the word out about just how NVDA really could enable people to do their professional job, and not just use it at home.

Merry Christmas all, and have a special time with family and friends.

Go NVDA!

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 4:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

 

I dropped the shark in 2010 April. I have not looked back since. I've tried to convince my co workers  at my job to use nvda but they say that the shark is better because nvda was not meant fo the work place. Um? Huh? No? I use nvda at my work to do stuff all the time. True it's an at home thing, but still.

 

Take care all and have a happy Friday

On Dec 22, 2017, at 12:26 PM, Gerardo Corripio <gera1027@...> wrote:

 

Yes I've used NVDA as my main screen reader since January2015, and it's coming along! I really like the fact that apart from having to buy Vocalizer, Eloquence o or other voices specifically made for it (it's definitely a lot more cheaper than the other screen reader, with each symthesizer costing an average USD$100 versus the nearly USD$800 and upwards of the others); NVDA updates when it has to without having to worry of the SMA, via AddOns, we CAN adapt NVDA to our usage/liking/personality.. So NVDA keep up the great work! and let's continue helping spreading the word out!


El 22/12/2017 a las 12:40 p.m., Angela Delicata escribió:

+1000! I wish I know it before: I am really happy with nvda; it is a wonderful screen reader.

If we think all they ask is a donation and they give us such a wonderful product... Isn't it fantastic?

Happy vacation to all.

best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/12/2017 19:12, Sky Mundell ha scritto:

I totally agree with you. Lets all promote the use of this terrific product!


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 9:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] I'm dissappointed


Hi all. FYI the Webame survey 7 results out out. It’s a mixed bag. I’m dissappoited in NVDA useage. Its at 31.9 percent and that other screen reader I won’t talk about anymore is at 46 percent. All I’ll say is this. Spread the word about NVDA. I know a lot of you have adopted the use of it over the past year now that WINEyes is dead. Also if you can send NV Access a donation.


Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10






---
Questa email è stata esaminata alla ricerca di virus da AVG.
http://www.avg.com

-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird

 

 

Hi, Sky,

 

I just finished listening to the presentation and the two guys did a wonderful job in making their point. We do need to spread the word about NVDA.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sky Mundell
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 4:13 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

 

Hello Gene. This is Sky.  In april of 2016, their was a discussion about NVDA and Employment on NVDA Con.  It was presented by two people, Dave Wiliams, and Sean Randal.  Below, is the url so you can listen to it.

 

https://www.nvdacon.org/wp-content/uploads/NVDACon_2016/NVDACon_2016_Employment.mp3

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 4:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

 

The first question is who is it a good option for?  I don't know enough about various employment settings to know where it could be used to meet the needs well. 

 

At this point in its development, if it is well suited to use in many employment settings, I'll let others address the question of rehab agencies.  I don't know enough to discuss it.  All I can say is that I'm skeptical that NVDA is nearly as ready for general use in employment as it appears some people are assuming.  If I'm wrong, that's fine but someone with real knowledge about employment requirements would have to address the question. 

 

For example, say someone in a call center has to read a specific part of the screen with a certain command.  In JAWS, a frame could be designed to do that by any knowledgeable JAWS employment counselor on the work site.  Since NVDA doesn't have such a feature, someone would have to make a script for NVDA to do this.  This would require much more knowledge and I would think it would be much harder to get it done in a lot of or most cases.  I haven't done this for years and I'd have to review how but I created frames to allow someone to use a VPN efficiently with a medical transcription interface from home, using JAWS.  That requires some knowledge but I don't have any of the knowledge needed to do the same with NVDA.  NVDA simply isn't user definable and I would think that that is one of its greatest obstacles in terms of flexibility in employment situations. 

 

Those are my opinions, not as any sort of expert about any of this but I think some or many NVDA proponents have a significantly inflated view of the current state of NVDA as an on the job screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: David Moore

Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 5:46 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

 

Hi Gene!

How do we educate the state rehabilitation agencies that NVDA is an option. Before my on line tutoring business, I was looking for a job. I asked my case worker about using NVDA at work. My case worker said that employers would not allow NVDA, and that they had hardly heard of NVDA, and that is not up to employment standards.

If my case worker thought that, I would assume that many agencies think that about NVDA.

Don’t we need to do presentations for the states like VFO does?

Simply, how do we get the word out there in the professional world that NVDA is a good option?

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 6:06 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

 

This discussion is really removed from reality.  Do a demonstration of what?  If an employer needs an employee to use a specific data base or other program that NVDA doesn't support, the demonstration will be worthless.  If the job just involves using standard Microsoft programs, a demonstration might accomplish something but many employers have specific programs they will allow and they won't allow others.  If you can find out in advance what programs are being used and that NVDA supports all those programs and if the employer will allow you to demonstrate, fine, but this discussion, as I said, is so removed from reality that it amounts to just emotional boosterism and that, if applied injudiciously will harm the reputation of NVDA, not help it. 

 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: David Moore

Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 4:49 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

 

You like wise, Rosemarie!

David Moore

Somehow, we have to go to employers and do a demonstration of NVDA right there. I don’t know if they would let any person do that, or do they have to be from an organization.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 5:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

 

Hi, David,

 

I see where you're coming from. I think if more employers would give NVDA a chance, they could save a lot of money that they could be using to update things like Microsoft office. If I had a job, I'd insist on using NVDA.

 

Merry Christmas to you and Traci.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 1:47 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

 

Hi all!

I have been using NVDA 80 percent of the time since 2015.

I can access a lot more controls on web pages, access TV Streaming web sites, use YouTube like a breeze, and a lot more.

NVDA can access the Win10 universal apps much better than the shark LOL!

I only use the Shark a few times a month to do some very specific tasks.

I want to emphasize that I cannot access a lot with the shark that I can access with NVDA. I have talked to many people about NVDA, and I have helped a few people use NVDA part of the time.

It is so hard to get people to install the add ons. So many are so stubborn and say they want to use a screen reader that has everything built in, instead of having to hunt all over the place for add ons.

I give them the web sites to find all of them, but they just go back to using the Shark, which really cannot access Edge at all yet, NVDA does much better in Google apps, like Google Docs, sheets, and forms.

NVDA works great in Edge. I can do what I need to do with Edge using NVDA. NVDA is so simple to install, it does not leave footprints all over your computer, it installs in a minute or so. The shark takes 15 minutes for me, NVDA is more stable than the later versions of the Shark, Audio ducking does not work in the Shark, NVDA keeps up much better with changes in Windows, I use many Win10 apps with NVDA, and on and on.

The word is getting out, though, because everyone I talk to who uses the Shark, says that they have heard of NVDA and know someone who uses it.

We really need to get NVDA to employers, so they can see just how great it is for work as well as at home.

NVDA really can enable someone to do their job in the work place. It is easier, because NVDA would install on their computer systems, I would think, better than the Shark. Somehow, we need to let state rehabilitation agencies, employers, the government, know just how great NVDA is.

VFO constantly goes around the country and shows off the Shark to employers, state agencies, and many professional organizations.

Somehow, we need to find out how we can have many NVDA conventions around the world where NVDA is being demonstrated to high up people and all kinds of professionals.

That is where VFO has the upper hand.

We need to get the word out about just how NVDA really could enable people to do their professional job, and not just use it at home.

Merry Christmas all, and have a special time with family and friends.

Go NVDA!

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 4:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

 

I dropped the shark in 2010 April. I have not looked back since. I've tried to convince my co workers  at my job to use nvda but they say that the shark is better because nvda was not meant fo the work place. Um? Huh? No? I use nvda at my work to do stuff all the time. True it's an at home thing, but still.

 

Take care all and have a happy Friday

 

On Dec 22, 2017, at 12:26 PM, Gerardo Corripio <gera1027@...> wrote:

 

Yes I've used NVDA as my main screen reader since January2015, and it's coming along! I really like the fact that apart from having to buy Vocalizer, Eloquence o or other voices specifically made for it (it's definitely a lot more cheaper than the other screen reader, with each symthesizer costing an average USD$100 versus the nearly USD$800 and upwards of the others); NVDA updates when it has to without having to worry of the SMA, via AddOns, we CAN adapt NVDA to our usage/liking/personality.. So NVDA keep up the great work! and let's continue helping spreading the word out!


El 22/12/2017 a las 12:40 p.m., Angela Delicata escribió:

+1000! I wish I know it before: I am really happy with nvda; it is a wonderful screen reader.

If we think all they ask is a donation and they give us such a wonderful product... Isn't it fantastic?

Happy vacation to all.

best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/12/2017 19:12, Sky Mundell ha scritto:

I totally agree with you. Lets all promote the use of this terrific product!


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 9:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] I'm dissappointed


Hi all. FYI the Webame survey 7 results out out. It’s a mixed bag. I’m dissappoited in NVDA useage. Its at 31.9 percent and that other screen reader I won’t talk about anymore is at 46 percent. All I’ll say is this. Spread the word about NVDA. I know a lot of you have adopted the use of it over the past year now that WINEyes is dead. Also if you can send NV Access a donation.


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Enviado desde Thunderbird

 

 

 

 

Dear NVDA community,

As I read messages on recent discussions, I realized just how much enthusiasm and concern people have over NVDA and its future. At the same time, it became clear to me that I and other developers and community elders need a day off and just listen to you all, as listening allows us to think about what others are saying and plan things accordingly.

But first, a humble opinion about surveys and other points:

First, when calls for the seventh Web AIM survey went out, I told people to not just do it to “increase” market share. I specifically told screen reader companies to not coerce users to do it, but let people take it out of their own willingness. This advice was to avoid a fiasco that happened with Web AIM 6 where AI Squared (now part of VFO) staff told Window-Eyes users to fill out the survey in mass numbers, which became a small controversy within the screen reading world, and to me, making Web AIM results no longer credible.

As some folks pointed out, Web AIM numbers depend on how many people fill it out and where they come from (and this is true of any surveys where word of mouth drives participation). The results also depend on demographics and other factors such as choices given, how the questions are worded, and overall objective. If one or more data points seems to be dominant, they can be either skewed or outliers, with the more extreme cases being termed “outliers” and they affect how the results are explicated (interpreted). Even skewed data, such as what I can perceive from some surveys including recent Web AIM iterations can affect statistical calculations to a point where it raises genuine questions about bias, credibility, and others (after all, success of statistics, particularly inferential statistics, depends on a representative sample or a close equivalent that allows researchers to approximate the real world, which is prone to errors if not done correctly such as misinterpretation, bad outliers, only some groups participating, not looking at things more deeply and what not).

One important thing to note is that Web AIM is a representative survey, thus the result in front of me could reflect reality. However, due to recent controversy, possible type I and II errors (false-positive and false-negative, respectively) and because of outliers and skewed data and participation, it does not truly reflect actual data, which is a point some folks here are trying to say and I concur with. My explication of Web AIM 7 is that, in some parts of the world, JAWS for Windows is more popular. However, given the fact that not all geographical regions are represented, I’d counter by saying that this is not a true representative sample that includes every continent, and if it did, the story would be different and will reflect reality a bit better (not a lot because there are other ways of skewing data such as filling it out on behalf of an organization, robotic fillers and so on). Coupled with the fact that Web AIM went through a major controversy recently that damaged its credibility somewhat, I would dare not trust Web AIM results again.

This leads to my second point: quantity versus quality. If NV Access went straight for quantity alone, they could have implemented all possible feature requests in hopes of boosting market share. The reality in front of us says otherwise: not all feature requests are here. Numerous factors contribute to this problem:

• Lack of leading developers: in 2017, a long-time NVDA developer started working for another organization, and NV Access has been looking for his replacement ever since. Even if the replacement is found, it’ll take several months for him or her to become used to this community, learn about accessibility and how to interact with members, and earn our trust (it took Reef Turner a year to fully earn our trust). Folks can counter this by saying that there are countless contributors out there, but ultimately what gets into NVDA depends on pull requests and review time from NV Access.
• Attitudes about open-source software from organizations: as some folks pointed out, there are prevailing attitudes about open-source in organizations that makes it a bit harder for NVDA to land on their computers, which allows developers to assess true needs of organizations through user feedback. Without valuable feedback from organizations (a quality one at that), we won’t see huger progress in NVDA development.
• Outside attitudes about the NVDA community: from the inside, NVDA community is seen as a tight nit of enthusiasts who strives to make NVDA better every day. On the outside, however, we have a mixed bag of reputations, from admiration to honorable mentions to disdain. Every organization have these mixed reputations, especially more so for a community powered by technology such as Linux kernel developers, web browser vendors and web standards organizations, and even screen reader community. Not only we need to show that we are united inside, we need to showcase unity outside of this community.
• Inside matters just as outside: public relations outside of NVDA community is important, but unity within an organization is just as important as public organizational face (I’ll address developer’s point of view below). What makes NVDA stand out is our unity despite coming from different circumstances and backgrounds.

Most of these point to quality, not quantity alone. In summary, quantity is important, but quality is just as important as how many people download NVDA 2017.4 between Christmas and New Year.

Lastly, in regards to organization internals, I’d like to address something I really wanted to say for the past few weeks: sometimes, I felt burnt out. My initial response to your enthusiasm over my audio tutorials was that I’ll ask for justifications for producing an updated version, seeing that there are countless free videos and tutorials out there. This was partly because I truly felt burnt out with academics, speech and debate competitions and what not (especially after a debate regarding a potential feature held not long ago), at one point telling myself that I’ll retire from the NVDA community sooner than later and feeling as though I carried important burdens on my shoulders. But you didn’t see that justification post; instead, I posted links to where you can download the 2018 version of my audio tutorial series. In effect, I’ve given up my Christmas holidays for this community, knowing that I needed a time to listen to you all and do something about it. All this was possible because of a simple act of listening and thinking about what the community means to me and what my work means to everyone. I’m committed to finishing Welcome to NVDA 2018 series before NVDA 2018.1 ships, with several addenda coming after that, all because of support from this community and outsiders. And I promise again: The Welcome to NVDA 2018 series was, and will remain, free for all. All I ask of you in return is donate to a cause that makes equal access to technology possible, especially during this holiday season and beyond.

I’m sure for many of you, my musings above are a bit hard to digest. Now you know why I don’t trust Web AIM survey results, quality is just as important as quantity, and read a confession from a community leader on his inner feelings. But there are two more things you need to know, something all of us needs to think about:

Community leaders won’t stay with you forever. In early 2017, I sensed that a long-time NVDA developer would leave this community for something better. Only I and others didn’t know until summer that it would be Jamie moving onto Mozilla Foundation.

I also felt, back in early 2017, that my active time with the NVDA community is slowly drawing to a close. I don’t know when it’ll happen, but I’ve been laying foundations for the next generation of developers and enthusiasts to take the lead. This is one of the reasons for setting up the devlearning subgroup, because I felt it is time for me and other leaders to teach NVDA internals and other concepts to the next group of community leaders and developers so they can bring NVDA to the next level and do more amazing things than I and others did (in my case, for the past five years).

Lastly, I sense a time when this community will face a sharp divide to a point where people will start questioning the merits of this community. I only told a select few earlier because it wasn’t right for me to disclose it early and for them to prepare a plan. The screen shade debate is, in fact, a sort of a preview of what is to come. One of the fundamental questions you will face at that time will be whether you still have your first love for NVDA, and whether you still have your original reasons for joining this community. The survival of this community at that time will depend on your ability to unite to face a difficult situation, even if that means facing possible splits. One thing you should NOT do at that time: ignoring new users and outside critics, because they are influential opinion leaders and are key stakeholders in NVDA’s future. One thing you SHOULD do though: listen to others and think critically.

Hope this makes sense.

Merry (early) Christmas,

Joseph

Hi Joseph,
I think the problem with the approach that you outlined is that it relies on the end-user to have a good deal of knowledge. Not just for your app but for others as well. For those of us who view the computer as a means of getting a job done, this is too much. That is one reason why people continue to use other screen readers where they hope, for certain price, they have some of this work done for them. In other words, one shouldn’t have to be a techie geek kind of person in order to use NVDA. As long as that is required, the share of NVDA users will be limited.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 22, 2017, at 7:26 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

Hi,

As the author of Windows 10 App Essentials add-on, there are advantages and drawbacks to including this add-on as part of the NVDA Core. The biggest advantage is that you get more efficient access to universal apps (not all, but some), with the biggest difference being Skype universal app and announcing emojis in emoji panel. The biggest drawback is missing timely updates, in that Windows 10 changes so rapidly that it is not advisable to put the entire add-on inside NVDA Core (hence the snapshots and external update approach). Just today I released a new development snapshot for this add-on that corrects NVDA’s behavior on latest Windows 10 Insider Preview, which may or may not work in the next Insider Preview build. In terms of things that could be incorporated into NVDA Core, I’m looking into bringing smiles to users of Skype universal app by incorporating my app module into NVDA Core as soon as possible.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mary Otten
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 7:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda with all addons built in

 

One way to look at this is the look at the functionality of the actual operating system. There is, for example, an add on for windows 10 essentials. That enables you to use and access certain app parts of the operating system. If you don’t have that, you have a problem. That should be incorporated into the core functionality of the screen reader ideally. But if they can’t do that, at least include the add on as a part of the package you get when you first download the screen reader. Beyond that, if there are add-ons which speak to the core functionality is that pretty much everybody uses if they have a computer, browsers, we’re processes, etc., those should be included. Extras such as Winamp, or

audio processing etc., those are extra. They’re not used by the majority. So there shouldn’t be included.
Mary

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 22, 2017, at 5:59 PM, William James <wil@...> wrote:

Weather add-ons should be included or not is subjective. Everyone learns the computer in different ways and approaches learning the computer in different stages. Some people are fast learners and some people are slow. There is no clear-cut answer on a yes or no question of what should be included. I know this, because I do this for a living.

Sent from my iPhone 7 Plus

On Dec 22, 2017, at 8:39 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

There are certain very important add ons.  Why, when such discussions come up, do people present yes or no choices, as though there are no other options.  Those who want NvDA with no add ons can be offered NVDA with no add ons.  A lot of users will never learn anything about add ons.  If the Windows 10 add on is needed to use many features well in Windows 10, that add on should be included in distributions of NVDA intended for the general user.  If Winamp is still as popular as it used to be, the Winamp add on should probably be included.  What about the add on, which I gather isn't an officially supported NVDA add on but which should be seriously considered to be one, that allows Firefox users to jump to information messages that needed to be acted on.  Of course, there are a lot of add ons that need not be included, but this shouldn't be a yes or no choice.  there is no reason to have it be an all or nothing decision.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Roger Stewart

Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 7:02 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda with all addons built in

 

Yes!  We don't want NVDA to become bloatware!  Leave the core as is and maybe add some features most or all can use and then let each one decide what add on to add.  I have the SPL add on installed.  If you don't ever want to do broadcasting of any kind, why would you want this add on as part of nvda?  Same can be said for most add ons.

Roger











On 12/22/2017 5:55 PM, David Moore wrote:

I don’t think that all add ons should be installed into NVDA either!

The great thing about NVDA is that you can customize it to your liking with the add ons that you want to install.

I want to respectfully say that Google Chrome, Google Drive and Google Docs are becoming a must for high school and college students.

Students are expected to collaborate on line using Google docs, and the cloud will be forced on everyone soon. Most companies will have their workers using the cloud to work on the same document together either via MS office web version, 365, or Google Docs, and Google apps.

The cloud is hear to stay if you want to go to school or have ajob.

I know high school kids who have to do all of their work with Google apps.

Have a great one!

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 6:23 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda with all addons built in

 

There is no reason to have all add ons built in.  there are certain important add ons or add ons that would be very widely used, if people knew about them that should be included.  the Windows 10- app is probably such an add on.  Given the popularity of Winamp, perhaps that should be another.  Window-eyes included its Winamp app, as they called it.  it wasn't coded into the program but it is an example of what Window-eyes did.  Many widely used features that JAWS might script for were amade a part of Window-eyes by distributing the app already running, with the program as part of the installation.

 

I suppose there could be a version of NVDA with no add ons, but that version would probably be preferred by reasonably knowledgeable users who understood the difference.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Lino Morales

Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 5:13 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda with all addons built in

 

Why Google Drive. Really why any cloud based anything? I only use 1 Drive now. I’m thinking of ditching Dropbox.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Josh Kennedy
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 6:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] nvda with all addons built in

 

Hi

Maybe to satisfy the jaws users, a version of NVDA should be created, with all legal approved addons installed, and then uploaded to google drive and shared. Maybe this would get more people using NVDA.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of susan@...
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:44 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

I am a teacher of students with visual impairments. One of my students is learning to use a screen reader and I decided to adopt NVDA. Tireless hours training have been spent training myself through videos, websites, youtubes, etc. I started training my student and implementing it with his school work. We have found what works one day does not always work the next day. What has been frustrating is how difficult it is to get tech support for NVDA on the spot as we sometimes need in the educational setting. We have very limited hours in a school day to complete our training and work with students with visual impairments. Their curriculum extends beyond the core curriculum as we all know and efficiency with support is critical. I am starting to use JAWS with my student and it has been seemless and working well. I really want to adopt NVDA but it has been very frustrating. We teach our students to brainstorm and contact tech support when needed but NVDA does not make it easy for our students to do this. Our students are the future of NVDA as future screen readers. Thoughts?

Hi

You definitely have your keyboard layout set to “laptop”?

 

Cheers

Chris

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dr. arvind singh brar
Sent: 23 December 2017 16:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Nvda sleep. Mode

 

Hi there,

I tried pressing nvda shift z but nothing happens,

I even tried it input help on but pressing those key combination did nothing,

So i uninstalled and re-installed nvda just to see if there would be any difference, but the results were the same,

Really frustrating, i really do not know where i am going wrong,

*sigh*

This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons.

 

 

Homepage; 

http://tip.simpl.com/

On 23 Dec 2017, at 22.51, Chris Mullins <cjmullins29@...> wrote:

This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (cjmullins29@...) Add cleanup rule | More info

NvDA+Shift+s toggles sleep mode with Desktop keyboard layout and

NVDA+Shift+z toggles sleep mode with laptop keyboard layout.

 

Cheers

Chris

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dr. arvind singh brar
Sent: 22 December 2017 20:09
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Nvda sleep. Mode

 

No i'm using the laptop keyboard

This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons.

 

 

Homepage; 

http://tip.simpl.com/

On 23 Dec 2017, at 03.02, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Are you using an external keyboard? 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr. arvind singh brar

Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 12:32 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Nvda sleep. Mode

 

Hello

Pressing nvda +shift +s, nvda says selected and does not goes to sleep,

I am using a laptop by the way,

Thanks

This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons.

 

 

Homepage; 

http://tip.simpl.com/

On 23 Dec 2017, at 01.27, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

What guide are you referring to?  Do you mean the guide you purchase?  If so, and if you are reporting the command as it exists accurately in the guide, that is the second incorrect command I've seen discussed in the paid for guide in about the last six months.  I'm not sure what the other one was but it wasn't discussed here.  The correct command is NVDA key shift s. 

 

I seem to recall that the other incorrect command had to do with a screen review or object navigation command. 

 

Even if people know the correct command, it is important to report incorrect commands in instructional material NVDA creates or links to.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr. arvind singh brar

Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 12:14 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: [nvda] Nvda sleep. Mode

 

Hello. 

I have a question

I read in the nvda guide that pressing nvda + shift + z will put nvda to sleep,

But when i press it nothing happens,

So how do i put nvda to sleep?

Thanks

 

This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons.

 

 

Homepage; 

http://tip.simpl.com/

Hi

You definitely have your keyboard layout set to “laptop”?

 

Cheers

Chris

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dr. arvind singh brar
Sent: 23 December 2017 16:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Nvda sleep. Mode

 

Hi there,

I tried pressing nvda shift z but nothing happens,

I even tried it input help on but pressing those key combination did nothing,

So i uninstalled and re-installed nvda just to see if there would be any difference, but the results were the same,

Really frustrating, i really do not know where i am going wrong,

*sigh*

This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons.

 

 

Homepage; 

http://tip.simpl.com/

On 23 Dec 2017, at 22.51, Chris Mullins <cjmullins29@...> wrote:

This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (cjmullins29@...) Add cleanup rule | More info

NvDA+Shift+s toggles sleep mode with Desktop keyboard layout and

NVDA+Shift+z toggles sleep mode with laptop keyboard layout.

 

Cheers

Chris

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dr. arvind singh brar
Sent: 22 December 2017 20:09
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Nvda sleep. Mode

 

No i'm using the laptop keyboard

This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons.

 

 

Homepage; 

http://tip.simpl.com/

On 23 Dec 2017, at 03.02, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Are you using an external keyboard? 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr. arvind singh brar

Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 12:32 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Nvda sleep. Mode

 

Hello

Pressing nvda +shift +s, nvda says selected and does not goes to sleep,

I am using a laptop by the way,

Thanks

This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons.

 

 

Homepage; 

http://tip.simpl.com/

On 23 Dec 2017, at 01.27, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

What guide are you referring to?  Do you mean the guide you purchase?  If so, and if you are reporting the command as it exists accurately in the guide, that is the second incorrect command I've seen discussed in the paid for guide in about the last six months.  I'm not sure what the other one was but it wasn't discussed here.  The correct command is NVDA key shift s. 

 

I seem to recall that the other incorrect command had to do with a screen review or object navigation command. 

 

Even if people know the correct command, it is important to report incorrect commands in instructional material NVDA creates or links to.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr. arvind singh brar

Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 12:14 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: [nvda] Nvda sleep. Mode

 

Hello. 

I have a question

I read in the nvda guide that pressing nvda + shift + z will put nvda to sleep,

But when i press it nothing happens,

So how do i put nvda to sleep?

Thanks

 

This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons.

 

 

Homepage; 

http://tip.simpl.com/